‘Spider-Noir’ Is Unsure of Itself. Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ E6-7, ‘Euphoria’ S3E7, and ‘Top Chef’ S23E12.

Summary

The Watch – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Watch
Hosts: Chris Ryan & Andy Greenwald
Episode: ‘Spider-Noir’ Is Unsure of Itself. Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ E6-7, ‘Euphoria’ S3E7, and ‘Top Chef’ S23E12.
Date: May 28, 2026

---

Overview

In this episode, Chris and Andy serve up their trademark, freewheeling blend of passionate pop culture analysis and comic banter, digging into four key TV touchstones: the fraught second season of Amazon Prime’s “Spider-Noir,” the boundary-pushing brilliance of “Widow’s Bay” Episodes 6 and 7, the penultimate episode of “Euphoria” Season 3, and the most recent “Top Chef” elimination shocker. Along the way, they offer a new recurring segment, trade deep-dive observations, and reflect on shifting trends in peak TV.

---

Main Discussion Topics

1. Industry & News: “Your Silence is Deafening” (09:13–15:03)

• New Segment: Chris introduces “Your Silence is Deafening,” calling on Andy to address Tom Hardy’s rumored exit from Mobland after a reported on-set clash with showrunner Jez Butterworth.
• The Tom Hardy Dilemma: Chris and Andy joke about the “notorious” Hardy reputation, referencing behind-the-scenes accounts (see Fury Road) and the oddity of a “not renewed but recast” announcement.
• Meta TV Development Trends: Andy draws a parallel between Mobland’s tortured production and the problem of TV shows morphing far from their original intent (“If you keep developing something, you end up with a fish with feet.” – Andy, 15:57).

Notable Quote

“Look, it is what it is. If you sign Tom Hardy up, you sign up for the whole ride. You can't get off midway.”
— Chris Ryan (11:17)

---

2. Returning TV: The Promise of The Agency & Sugar (15:37–26:10)

• Back-to-Back Second Seasons: Both The Agency (Paramount+) and Sugar (Apple TV+) are returning after long hiatuses.
• Anticipated Improvements: Andy predicts “The Agency” should improve, being “a fairly devout adaptation of one of the greatest shows,” (Le Bureau, 19:31), and lauds its expanded cast and stylish trailer.
• Sugar’s Genre Leap: Chris and Andy dissect Sugar’s polarizing late-season twist—Colin Farrell’s detective is revealed to be an alien—a “bag fumble” Apple is now hiding in the S2 trailer. They lament a missed opportunity: “You can’t just trailer your way into the movie you wish it was.” (22:10)
• Season 2 Strategy: Both shows offer a test case on whether TV can course-correct after a misaligned first season.

Notable Quotes

“Colin Farrell’s character on Sugar is a fucking alien.”
— Chris Ryan (22:19)

“This trailer is for the show Sugar should have been. And let me tell you, it’s not.”
— Andy Greenwald (22:00)

---

3. Widows’ Bay Episodes 6-7: “A Staggering Degree of Good” (26:24–46:24)

Deep Dive: Episodes 6 ("Our History", dir. Ti West) & 7 ("Seasickness", dir. Sam Donovan)

• Event TV Moment: Two linked episodes dropped as a package (“ballsy as hell and I’m glad they dropped them together” — 35:16), making waves in group chats and sparking a sense of “collective TV.”

• Episode 6: Flashback Brilliance

  • Period flashback (1702) starring Betty Gilpin and Hamish Linklater.
  • Andy marvels at the show’s directorial confidence and consistency, praising its tonal blend of horror, comedy, and emotional depth (“the tonal balance of this show… is something I’ve never seen done before.” — 29:49).
  • Chris points out the show dodges “drunk history” pitfalls, finding a “modern sensibility” within an 18th century setting.

• Episode 7: Genre-Perfect Comedy-Horror

  • Jaws-esque “three on a boat” quest with inventive, compact blocking and clear plot rules.
  • Richard Warren’s resurrection is handled with sly restraint and comedic inversion (“There is no jump scare in the coffin … another sign of filmmaker confidence.” — 36:43).

• Thematic Praise:

  • The show’s “quiet confidence, competence and occasional brilliance” (29:47).
  • “Widow’s Bay is the best television show of the year. M-dash, Andy Greenwald, primary host of The Watch podcast.” (28:17)

• Critical Analysis:

  • Episodes play with time, structure, and genre with rare assurance (“All of these things are not amateur decisions ... they are thoughtful, considered decisions that are paying off the story.” — 34:14)
  • Showrunner Katie Dippold cited for crafting “the rare TV show from a relatively pure creative act.” (46:24)

Notable Quotes

“How did they do a 300-year flashback episode with the confidence of a show that has been running for multiple seasons?”
— Andy Greenwald (33:12)

“This show is so good in a way that staggers, humbles, and delights me.”
— Andy Greenwald (29:49)

---

4. Spider-Noir: An Identity Crisis (48:44–63:22)

• What is Spider-Noir?:

  • Amazon’s new noir/superhero show starring Nicolas Cage, riffing off his character in Across the Spider-Verse.
  • Not the same character as in the films, which Andy finds symptomatic of “how cooked we are” as TV consumers (48:44).
  • Offered in “True Hue” (color) and “authentic black and white” — but neither visual mode lands effectively.

• Critical Reactions:

  • Chris dislikes the show’s indecision; Andy finds the show’s central problem is its lack of commitment: “Is this a noir show or is this a superhero show?” (55:21)
  • The presence of superpowers everywhere flattens stakes and drains suspense.
  • Andy, with experience pitching the show himself, elaborates on how stakeholder bloat and development-by-committee can dilute creative vision.

• Binge Release Discussion:

  • Chris & Andy debate Amazon’s choice to release the full season at once and relate it to larger streaming trends. (63:22–66:20)
  • Considerations of niche “obsessive” programming vs. subscriber-acquisition tactics.

Notable Quotes

“To see [Nicolas Cage] relatively locked into something that he could do quite easily is amusing … But ultimately it’s not that interesting.”
— Andy Greenwald (53:56)

“Some of the things most on display here is a very contemporary writerly skill, which is tightrope walking, trying to balance two great flavors that don’t always taste great together.”
— Andy Greenwald (55:21)

“Neither looks very good. The black and white is not high contrast enough … the true hue looks like running Sin City through a colorization program.”
— Chris Ryan (52:55)

---

5. Euphoria S3E7: “Diminishing Returns and Still Occasional Brilliance” (70:26–79:36)

• Long-Running Penultimate Blues:
  • Both hosts felt this episode recapped familiar beats and character arcs rather than breaking new ground.
  • Chris: “For the first time perhaps in this show's history, I was bored… I felt like I had seen these scenes before.” (70:43)
  • Both single out Colman Domingo and Zendaya’s (Ali and Rue) scenes as electric, and praise a powerful, compact “origin episode” for Ali.
  • Andy notes the season is “a wildly expensive, wildly audacious improvisatory exercise by someone [Levinson] with a lot of open road and a lot of big stars, and a very small window in which to get them all together” (74:36).
  • Finale expectations are muted; the hosts question clunky plotting and unresolved stalling.

Notable Quotes

“There have been a number of fully formed, pretty compelling television shows just tossed out on the table.”
— Andy Greenwald (71:56)

---

6. Top Chef S23E12: “Crash-Out Season” (79:47–93:14)

• Seeger’s Meltdown:
  • A shocking elimination featuring chef Seeger, who “crashes out” after an ill-judged mousse served in the heat—defended with rare stubbornness (“Has never worked in the history [of the show] … let's go to the tape on them." — 82:00).
  • The hosts relish the rare return of fiery, messy Top Chef drama (“a burst of energy in a show that hasn't had a ton of adrenaline” — 81:02).
  • Production issues are increasingly visible: unclear rules, pared-down budgets, excessive curveball challenges, and confusion over “Last Chance Kitchen.”
• Season Quality & Future:
  • Both agree the season’s ceiling feels lower — less culinary fireworks, more production friction.
  • Andy: “Clear, clear, clear diminishment of ambition and budget is hurting the final product of the show.” (93:11)
  • Hope remains for a strong final three (Rhoda, Lawrence, Sherry), but the season lacks prior Top Chef heights.

Notable Quotes

“They want it to work in this way, and I think you can see … a small thing because we watch it … but currently, the show this season … is premiering on Bravo linear on Mondays at a time TBD each week. … That was insane.”
— Andy Greenwald (85:31)

---

Additional Memorable Moments & Banter

• Riffing on Ironman (04:13–06:07):
  The hosts lampoon the idea of competing in an Ironman, joking about ‘Ironboy’ competitions, and 80s sports TV (“My favorite feeling isn’t getting out of the ocean. I’d love to, like, dry for a little bit. So I don’t chafe.” — Andy, 05:47)
• Top Chef Bylaws:
  The hosts crack up over Seeger attempting to “go to the tape” and cite the rules during his meltdown (82:00–82:08).

---

Timestamps – Key Segments

• 09:13 – “Your Silence is Deafening” / Tom Hardy Mobland saga
• 15:37 – The Agency and Sugar Season 2 Trailers & Prediction
• 26:24 – Widow’s Bay E6–7 Super-Recap and Analysis
• 46:24 – Transition to Spider-Noir
• 48:44 – Spider-Noir Deep Dive
• 63:22 – Streaming Release Strategies (Binge vs. Weekly)
• 70:26 – Euphoria S3E7 Recap and Reaction
• 79:47 – Top Chef S23E12: Seeger’s Meltdown and Season Analysis

---

Conclusion

This episode delivers a quintessential Watch experience: granular TV criticism blended with irreverent humor, inside-baseball industry talk, and periodic detours into personal anecdotes. The highs—Widow’s Bay—are celebrated in ecstatic detail, while disappointments—Spider-Noir, “crash-out” Top Chef—are dissected with honesty, sympathy for the creative process, and a nod toward uncertainty in the streaming TV future. It’s a must-listen episode for serious TV obsessives and casual fans alike.

Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms. Every choice matters. Tremphya offers self injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self inject Tremphya, proper training is required to Tremphya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur before treatment. Get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about tremphya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trempha fireradio.com.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode of the Watch is presented to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime Same Day Delivery has your back getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same Day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas. Terms Apply Pain support staff to clear

[Andy Greenwald]

the room, Stand up and walk now.

[Chris Ryan]

Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an [e-mail] and joining me in the studio wondering if Hamish Linklater can play Stretch four for the Sixers. It's Andy Greenwald, the way you wove it together. Yeah, all of our interests. Widows bay, the Philadelphia 76ers free agency. It's great to see you today on the menu. Let me tell you a little bit how we do things at this restaurant.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, great.

[Chris Ryan]

It's small plates. They're meant to be shared. It's farm to table.

[Andy Greenwald]

How many do we need per diner?

[Chris Ryan]

We're gonna do the most recent two episodes of Widow's Bay, which both came out this week.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm gonna stop you before you even start. We're gonna do the last four episodes of Widow's Bay because we're not on the record together about any of them since episode three.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, so you obviously didn't listen to Any of my monologuing?

[Andy Greenwald]

No, I heard that you did it. I said we're not on the record.

[Chris Ryan]

And we also are going to talk about Spider Noir. We're going to talk about the most recent episode of Euphoria and the most recent episode of Top Chef.

[Andy Greenwald]

Man.

[Chris Ryan]

I also have some news at the top, but it's been a minute. It's been a minute since I've seen your. Your beautiful visage in person.

[Andy Greenwald]

You've been traveling a lot.

[Chris Ryan]

Not that much, really. I mean, I took two trips within the United States.

[Andy Greenwald]

Two trips within the United States within the last two weeks. That's traveling a lot.

[Chris Ryan]

That is traveling a lot. I did it. Pacific Northwest.

[Andy Greenwald]

And what are you trying to hide?

[Chris Ryan]

What if I do? I'm just raising a lot of money.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's your bundling. Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

It's great to see. You can reach [e-mail] I noticed we just got a flood of. Of new emails. Every once in a while. I gotta tell you, we're getting to the point where we might be able to do it. Andy. Only Effinger's only mailbag.

[Andy Greenwald]

Stop it.

[Chris Ryan]

But it's all people being like, I'm going to read effingers too.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, well, there's a. I see a lot of gunna. I don't see a lot of actual, like, page turning, you know what I mean?

[Chris Ryan]

You can follow us on Instagram @thewatchpod. You can watch us on YouTube at the Ringer Dash TV channel where we're there with the prestige TV pod. And you can watch us on Spotify where I hope you listen to us, but we're also available elsewhere where you listen to podcasts is our email address.

[Andy Greenwald]

Has anyone signed it up for any, like, ActBlue emails or recurring donations?

[Chris Ryan]

No, doesn't seem like it. I mean, I do get a lot of, like, I feel like I've seen an uptick in like, random PR emails where I'm like, you don't know your audience. Like, would you guys be interested in covering the Ironman race but not Tony Stark, but, like, guys who have to run, swim and bike.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought it was going to be Tony Stark versus, like, Ironheart, you know what I mean? Versus War Machine.

[Chris Ryan]

I always kind of had a sneaking suspicion that I might be able to do an Ironman.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, hold on. This is the earliest time I've ever closed my last one.

[Chris Ryan]

Just in the. I can do all three things.

[Andy Greenwald]

I. You know what?

[Chris Ryan]

But I can't. I don't know if I could. How long I could do them. Is there like a. Like an Ironman for softies? You know, like soft batch Iron Boys.

[Andy Greenwald]

An Iron Boy competition where you get on a little.

[Chris Ryan]

Does anybody know an Iron Boy competition?

[Andy Greenwald]

Wait, wait. When was the first time? An island somewhere. When was the first time. Careful. The first time you ever learned about the Ironman competition.

[Chris Ryan]

80s ESPN.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right. So basically I want to. I'm going to ventriloquize this for you. I feel like we probably had a similar experience. Like maybe you're home from school one day and you turn on the Ocho or ESPN dose at like 2:35pm it

[Chris Ryan]

was on flagship, but they didn't always have college football, bro. So you turn it on some crazy

[Andy Greenwald]

shit and you would just see someone like weeping, running in a Speedo, you know, which is usually would be Cinemax at 11:30pm on a Friday, but in this case it was the middle of the day. And I also was entranced by this for exactly the reason you said I can physically do those three actions.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it was kind of like. It actually seems like it would be refreshing to take a dip. That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you know what else I thought was really good about it? I thought the order was reasonable.

[Chris Ryan]

So what is it goes swim, bike, run.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I think that's what it was. Someone can Google that.

[Chris Ryan]

Honestly, the only thing that bothers me about it is like, wouldn't I get a little chilly on the bike after getting out of the ocean? Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because my only reference for this wasn't that sports were hard and I wasn't qualified to do them. It was. My favorite feeling isn't getting out of the ocean. I'd love to like dry for a little bit. So I don't chafe. But 100%, you have locked in on something that I haven't thought about in decades, which at no point did I think, I'll never be able to do that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was like, oh, that's something to put on my list.

[Chris Ryan]

I think as only children.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

We had no tutelage.

[Andy Greenwald]

Our fathers, they turned their backs on us, certainly athletically.

[Chris Ryan]

But I didn't have an older brother to be like, this is how you bowl. So a lot of what I do, much like Natasha Hemstrudge and Species, is mimicry, you know, and so you see

[Andy Greenwald]

someone who say is very sexual and violent at the end. But okay, your version works too.

[Chris Ryan]

I would watch a guy bowl on ESPN and if there was a bowling birthday party, I would do like an elaborate, like, kind of fucking.

[Andy Greenwald]

You would go for Spin.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I would be DeJesus and I would, like, throw a ball six lanes left because. Yeah, I'm not, like a professional bowler and I'm not an iron man, but I probably would start really strong. The other thing, and I'm sorry to delay on. On the wide world of sports that we're going to talk about today.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is more interesting than the last two episodes of Euphoria.

[Chris Ryan]

It makes it seem. I'm kind of under the impression that we've made, like, great leaps in protein intake in the last seven years.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like you and Craig or like, who?

[Chris Ryan]

No, just like gels, bars, all those things.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, you could put it into more.

[Chris Ryan]

But did, like, guys back then, if they needed protein during, like, a race, like, just eat turkey or what would they do?

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, the pace car for the Ironman triathlon was the Oscar Mayer wienermobile. And it would drive alongside the athletes, and the athletes would take ham and salami and they would eat it, and then they would light a cigarette.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

As they ran.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was a purer time. Here's the secret. Everybody was fine. Yeah, no, I know everybody was fine.

[Chris Ryan]

Those guys all lived forever.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did they?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Their hearts exploded. Maui. When they were like, you're too old for this. And they're like, I'm 25.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, there was that Dennis Leary bit for a while where it's always like, joggers. Joggers who die of heart attacks. Oh, no, that was about joggers getting hit by buses. Never mind.

[Andy Greenwald]

You could. You could iterate.

[Chris Ryan]

I could. I have a lot of. I feel. I feel like I have a Dennis Leary esque quality to me sometimes.

[Andy Greenwald]

You've both been in Boston.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I've been to Boston.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're wearing denim. You secretly want to be a dramatic actor.

[Chris Ryan]

I do. I do.

[Andy Greenwald]

You love fireman. Should I stop?

[Chris Ryan]

What do you want to start with, news wise? So we have.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was exhilarating. I don't care what we do now.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, so I have one thing for you, which is a new segment I'm introducing to the Watch podcast.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh. And just, you know, for first time listeners, of which there. I'm sure there are zero. As with every other segment, this will

[Chris Ryan]

be a consistent staple for two weeks of this show.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I've never been prepped on it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, well, often. Here's. Here's a. Behind the curtain. Behind the curtain. I will be like, it's time for us to do this segment. And you're like, I don't have. Like, remember, I'm like, oh, what are we reading this week, like? Or watch of the week? What did we watch this weekend? And you'd be like, nothing. Yeah, I didn't do anything.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then you Instagram and you're like, look at this cool book I read, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I think you save a little bit of your stuff for ig.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's from my personal brand.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which is floundering. So if you could give me a cosign.

[Chris Ryan]

So here's our new segment.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It's called your Silence is deafening. This is great.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is great. I'm already in on this.

[Chris Ryan]

It's been we 48 whole hours.

[Andy Greenwald]

We say this to each other all the time.

[Chris Ryan]

You have not publicly commented on Tom Hardy's exile from Mobland.

[Andy Greenwald]

Not publicly, but I've been huddling with my team trying to craft the correct response because.

[Chris Ryan]

So while you spin your wheels trying to decide how you're going to phrase this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because to be clear, I did prep a statement, but it was. It was flagged. It was really came in too hard

[Chris Ryan]

for folks that don't know. Mobland is a show on Paramount. Plus it was created by Ronan Bennett, who did Top Boy and then taken over show run and executive produce written by Jez Butterworth, who also does a show we're going in a second called the Agency. And just. Butterworth is an accomplished screenwriter, a playwright in England. He apparently, according to reports, had a falling out with Tom Hardy, which is not the first time this has happened with Tom Hardy. The second season of Mobland is completed and it was announced. Strangely, I thought since I don't think the third season has been renewed or greenlit, that Tom Hardy would no longer be on the show, that there was some sort of ultimatum, Butterworth or Hardy? And it seems like Jess Butterworth had won that fight then hilariously, I think a lot of like, leaked kind of accounts of Tom Hardy behavior.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes, some.

[Chris Ryan]

I saw some counter narratives flying around certain circles. Yeah. And then as of today, the last thing I saw was that, and this is not from a like, super reputable source, was that there is some efforts to bring Hardy back into the fold.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, who's leading that charge?

[Chris Ryan]

Who's leading that charge in the media or who's leading that charge? Like, to do that. I think David Glasser, who is like the kind of 101 studios impresario who also oversees a lot of Taylor Sheridan stuff. Everybody's waiting. Where do you land Mirren or Hardy?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, oh, I'm on the clock now. Wait, so you're you as one of the media's biggest Tom Hardy boosters.

[Chris Ryan]

If anybody's ever listened to me, they're going to know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Look, it is what it is. If you sign Tom Hardy up, you sign up for the whole ride. You can't get off midway.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would say after season two, there are certain things. This is. I've been referencing this a lot because I love it. And he's been saying this for years, but our friend and colleague Brian Curtis's. Now they tell us notebook dump, which is the piece that appears after a coach is fired or someone is at

[Chris Ryan]

the end of the season.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And suddenly, like all the reporting that they didn't feel they could. They could source or verify or even report on freely, they can now say because that person is out of the building. The oppo dump for the big anti Tom Hardy lobby was locked and loaded.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is not a secret that he is challenging in the workspace.

[Chris Ryan]

Read Kyle Buchanan's Fury Road book.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. And so I. While I appreciate your Bane, watch Taboo or join the rest of us in not watching Taboo. I think that I'm just curious. I'm going to float a hypothetical for you. Okay. Let's say that you were scheduled to do a podcast with me, and at the appointed hour, you arrived, sat down, and I was nowhere to be seen. Now, so far, this is not a hypothetical. This is every week other than today.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but then you come bustling in three minutes late, and you're just like, apologies. Apologies?

[Andy Greenwald]

Is that what I sound like? Jesus Christ. So sorry, everyone. There was a horrid mess on the tube this morning. Tom Hardy, according to the accounts in Kyle Buchanan's book. Left. Left. Charlize Theron's sitting in the. I believe the term is war rig.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

For three hours before sauntering onto set.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I think he was trying to locate his voice. You know, he was trying to get located.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's always at the bottom of an old well. It's always the same voice. What are you talking about?

[Chris Ryan]

I just, like, I think, Holly, I. I don't want anybody to get their feelings hurt or be. Be in any kind of physical danger. I do find stories of onset like, you know, sure. You know, cultural or personality clashes to be pretty interesting to read about. If. If Hollywood never had any of those, it would be a little bit less interesting to read about.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay, that's fair. You know, it's just. I don't know. Do. Are you that concerned about the third season of Mobland?

[Chris Ryan]

No. And I. I didn't really like the first season of Mobland that much. I mean, I. I watched. I think I finished it. I can't remember, but it was just one of those things that I. I knocked out, like, two episodes on a plane ride kind of thing after the first couple of episodes. And I love that cast. And I think, yeah, you know, it's been a strange show. It was supposed to. It was initially the idea was it was going to be a Don the Ray Donovan spinoff. Then I think it kind of mutated into half Gangs of London, half Yellowstone set, you know, in London with this crime family. And some of the reporting suggest Hardy's been a little bit aggrieved by the fact that it went from being a Tom Hardy show to a Tom Hardy, Pierce Brosnan, Helen Mirren show. And it sounds like he and Mirren specifically are butting heads, allegedly.

[Andy Greenwald]

I mean, what if I don't want

[Chris Ryan]

Big Mirren getting in, getting her litigation bag against me?

[Andy Greenwald]

What if? Yeah, Helen Mirren doesn't care about what we say, but her husband, Taylor Hackford, is incredibly litigious and a longtime listener of the West.

[Chris Ryan]

Not entirely sure that's the case. Helen Mirren may very well care what I say.

[Andy Greenwald]

You're. Wow, you've changed since your trip.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I'm just saying I still maintain. I know for a fact Taylor Hackford has listened to Proof of Life. I think there is a We listen to the. The Proof of Life rewatchables. There is a 50% chance that he was like, you're going to get a kick out of this and played it for Helen Mir. And then there is a 25% chance within that that she was like, this is my favorite podcast. I love these guys. Keep playing out this.

[Andy Greenwald]

Then there's a 10% chance that what? That she's like, let me deep dive this guy's podcast career. Music exists. Was really, really thought provoking. And then she makes the full connection after reading all of Chuck's books. So you're the one playing pool.

[Chris Ryan]

Let me just add, there is a non, non zero chance that Tom Hardy's also doing this to get off the show, which sometimes happens.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the most interesting segue for me from this is that Mobland has the kind of incredibly contemporary representative.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you watch an episode of this?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. The first two torturous development cycle of many, many shows of the month, particularly. We're going to get to Spider Noir in a minute. What is that? I feel like there's a. It's not a meme, but I feel like it is a saying that like. Like if you put the. The dev. The dev boys on something, you're going to end up with like a fish with feet.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm getting the, the analogy wrong, but there's some idea that if you keep developing something, you will end up with something that is so far from the initial purpose that you're not even sure why it exists.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I kind of feel that way about Mobland. It's fine. And all of the people in it are good. But I don't know. I'm chasing after an observation that I can't quite land about. Like, that's what Tom Hardy's doing. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I got when this first started, when mob, if I remember correctly. I can't believe how long we're spending on this. I believe he said you love it. I want to be in London, close to my family. This is a steady gig that I like.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is so close to what I said about Harry Potter. There was just one. What was the word? He said that he wanted to be close to his family. Right. He's figured it out, man.

[Chris Ryan]

So another show that is on Paramount plus along with Mobland, is the Agency. And the Agency is coming back, I think June 21st. June and I. I'm pairing the agency's return with the return of a. A bit malign show on Apple tv, but one that is close to your heart. A passion project, viewers, which is Sugar, the Colin Farrell detective show, also returning for its second season. Honestly, surprisingly, it's been two years, it seems like.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Has it?

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know. Sure. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

When was Sugar on your top 10?

[Andy Greenwald]

Insanely enough, it was not on my top 10.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yes, it was.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, it was not.

[Chris Ryan]

Didn't you put Sugar in your top 10?

[Andy Greenwald]

No. I love to zag, I love to surprise and delight you, but no, sir,

[Chris Ryan]

I'm just gonna look up Sugar Season 1. Excuse me?

[Andy Greenwald]

I promise. No, I think that I said that the pilot was one of my favorite pilots of the last few years.

[Chris Ryan]

It's 20. 24 is when it debuted.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow. It was a different time. 26 now it was Joe Biden's favorite show. Yeah, we've changed. Maybe that's what you're mistaking me with. Also, isn't it funny that this is the new normal where we are talking about these shows? It's like, oh, the agency's coming back. Sugar' coming back with its normal two year gestation process.

[Chris Ryan]

Agency was last year, wasn't it? No. Damn. Really? That was also Joe Biden's favorite show. Joe Biden loves the Agency. You know what I mean? Yeah, I was googled. Joe Biden, Joe Biden, the Agency.

[Andy Greenwald]

What are you going to get from if you do that? Yeah. Anyway, 2024. No way of knowing, but I'm glad you googled it. Okay, which one do you want to talk about first? Let's.

[Chris Ryan]

I want to talk about like. Well, first of all, you're like you alluded to coming back after such a long interval, but also where you're at with these like the opportunity for since we're doing a lot more recurring television now in than in recent years, a showed that maybe Wrong was wrong footed at certain points in its first season, tonally was still trying to find its voice, et cetera. Which one of these do you think has the biggest opportunity or the most likely opportunity? Most like highest likelihood of improving in its second season?

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I will start by saying both have delivered excellent trailers for their second season.

[Chris Ryan]

They sure have.

[Andy Greenwald]

No question about it. And both, if you were just going by the trailers, present a pretty exciting vision of 2020s television where very attractive movie stars fully embrace the genre trappings that are really possible to explore within serialized television. So that's cool, I think. That said, there is no question, I'll just say this now, The Agency Season 2 is going to be much better

[Chris Ryan]

than we know what it's about because it's based on Laburo. So we know where season two goes.

[Andy Greenwald]

So let's separate the conversation for a second to say that the Agency, one of our favorite shows of two years ago, both because it was stylish and incredibly well acted and low key, a pretty good London hang show despite all the stress that March was going under, going through. It is, as you said, it is a fairly devout adaptation of one of the greatest shows probably ever on television, the French series Le Bureau. And as the season progressed, I think it started to develop its own kind of chilly swagger that suggested that it was going to deviate in ways maybe not always plot, but in terms of the delivery of the plot in ways that felt kind of exciting. And second season of Libero is better than the first season with a lot of very cool set pieces and moments of tension. And this trailer looks so sick. It made me so excited to watch it and it actually made me appreciate even more how nice it was to have such a quality, consistent Entertainment for those 10 weeks two years ago.

[Chris Ryan]

One of the crazy things about the Agency is that it's got a pretty star studded cast. Geoffrey Wright, Richard Gere. Kathryn Waterston.

[Andy Greenwald]

Richard Gere is Homer's dad from Euphoria.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Carrie Lowell. And Richard Gere's son is Homer. Well, Dylan on Euphoria. That's the character.

[Andy Greenwald]

I just wanted to make it relevant to our young TikTok fans.

[Chris Ryan]

They will have more to do this season based on. So if you were watching season one and you were like, Richard Gere's in like, six scenes and Katherine Waterson's not on this show. Really?

[Andy Greenwald]

Barely.

[Chris Ryan]

And John Magaro, like, what's he doing? You know, they'll have stuff to do this season.

[Andy Greenwald]

It looks awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

It does.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sugar.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. So. Okay. I can't even. We can't have this conversation without spoiling an element of Sugar. Many people listening are probably like, what are these guys talking about? I haven't even heard of Sugar. Sugar came out two years ago. Detective show set in California. Like L. A. Like I mentioned, stars. Colin Farrell.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

People sometimes ask, do I have to watch the first season to start the second season? We have started to push the limits on what we have. We are capable of with that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I would like to take five seconds of just staring at you, maybe vamping.

[Andy Greenwald]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

And in one second, we are going to spoil.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

We are a big part of what makes Sugar Sugar.

[Andy Greenwald]

And you know why we're going to do it? Because fucking Tim Apple doesn't want you to know.

[Chris Ryan]

He doesn't want us to know.

[Andy Greenwald]

This trailer hides the ball. And by the ball, I mean one of the great television bag fumbles in recent years.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I said when I watched this trailer? Are you having a fucking laugh?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Because this is a trailer for the show. Sugar should have been. And let me tell you, it's not.

[Chris Ryan]

But also, it's like, is this the first season of Sugar?

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, you can't just trailer your way into the movie. You wish it was. We've seen this fail in movies again and again.

[Chris Ryan]

3, 2, 1. Colin Farrell's character on Sugar is a fucking alien. Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

He's a blue space.

[Chris Ryan]

When does that come out?

[Andy Greenwald]

Like episode five.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's excruciating.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you know that, like, when you were watching it?

[Andy Greenwald]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

And then he's an alien.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And then I stood up, went out for a pack of cigarettes, never came home. Never smoked him.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you? I think I stopped watching Sugar. Does. Does his alien hood.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Play a major role in the second half of the season?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Dude.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wouldn't it in yours?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. This second season trailer makes it look like he Loves boxing. Like, I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Look, we don't know. I keep waiting for DJT to tell us what aliens love. I keep hearing there's a press conference coming.

[Chris Ryan]

I know.

[Andy Greenwald]

And maybe it's like they love noir

[Chris Ryan]

movies on the streets. Are like aliens right now.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

They're coming up to me with tears in their eyes.

[Andy Greenwald]

No, that's just the Alien Earth FYC campaign which is all over town.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. This is a huge twist in the show that they are not giving away in the trailer because it is a

[Andy Greenwald]

second season anchor around the neck of what could have been good. It is. I wish I had done the prep to prepare for a. The same thing. The fucking fish with feet. This is what we have here. Like, it's okay to do a small thing.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, Ina Garten made a whole career out of it. And she should work at Apple tv, frankly, because you have Colin Farrell, one of the most stylish and compelling and charismatic actors of our time, looking incredible in beautiful suits, driving a sports car in a neon.

[Chris Ryan]

Colin Farrell, Rockford Files tinged.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. But like, also really embracing the idea of, like, what LA Light looks like and what a noir would look like in bright color, not in whatever fucking rinky dink technicolor they did to Spider Noir to try to appeal to multiple audiences at once. We'll get there.

[Chris Ryan]

Coming attractions for Andy's Spider Noir.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm just saying. And that would have. In the. In the great words of the fucking Seder Dinner Dayenu, like, that would have been enough.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But instead they were like, no, no, there's also a secret society because this guy likes noir movies because he's an alien. We don't needed that. We don't need that.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think that Colin Farrell signed up for this? To play a detective or an alien?

[Andy Greenwald]

I think Colin Farrell signed up for this for a chance to wear suits that weren't fucking fat suits in the backlot of Warner Brothers doing Penguin. And yet he does have to wear an alien suit at some points in the show. In a perfect world, this show gets renewed because they're like, just do the parts that work. We don't care that he's an alien. That's fine. And maybe they did lean into it because they beefed up the cast like you were pointing it out. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Shea Whigham, Sasha Calle, Tony Dalton, like a really great ensemble.

[Andy Greenwald]

The plot already looks more interesting than the kind of.

[Chris Ryan]

It looks like a detective investigating, like a missing boxer. And. And then Tony Dalton, Lalo from. From Better Call Saul plays a sheriff's deputy, I think, and she. Wiggum seems to be a fixer.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just so, so, so weird to me. And it. I don't know, like, at a time when Widow's Bay is on the docket for us to talk about, like, I. I'm kind of. I'm definitely giving. I don't really want to rail on Apple's development process for why this happened the way it happened. And even within the context of it's an alien show and a detective show, the big reveal being just being Slow walk to episode five was also such a weird fumble in season one. Sure. Anyway, it's just a bummer because I watched that trailer and I was like, this is a show I want. And I think they're probably smart to do that and say, like, look, all the stars are on Apple and they're all kind of doing genre stuff and you'll have a good time with this listener. I don't know if that's true.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I can. I can assure you that we'll. We'll. We'll at least give the second season a college try. I'll jump back in. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. You don't care anymore. You don't care.

[Chris Ryan]

You show me the way. You led me down the path of we don't have to watch TV to talk about tv.

[Andy Greenwald]

I was a trailblazer in that field.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's be positive, okay? And let's talk about what is Bay. What is Bay? Released two episodes this week for a very clear purpose. These two episodes are linked in ways that I found, just like this series itself, surprising and delightful. Episode six is called Our History, and it's directed by Ti West.

[Andy Greenwald]

It was a big deal.

[Chris Ryan]

Great horror director, directed Pearl and Maxine and X. And he directed House of the Devil. Like, he's a great horror director. Also directed a really cool Brian Jonestown kind of Jonestown esque movie called the Sacrament that I really liked. Anyway, he directed this episode, Our History, which is set in 1702. It stars Betty Gilpin as Sarah Westcott, who comes to the Widow's Bay island, betrothed to Richard Warren, who is the town, you could say leader, savior, captor. And Richard Warren's played by Hamish Linklater, kind of in a sly nod, I think, to his Midnight Mass character, who was also a priest who worked on a. In a rural island. And when we find these two uniting in 1702, a plague of violent insanity is kind of gripping.

[Andy Greenwald]

The island reminiscent of what we saw in the fog in the premiere episode.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. And Sarah finds herself in the center of these proceedings and attempts to save herself and Warren's children as he and some of this townsfolk aim to stop her. Should we talk about these episodes separately or together?

[Andy Greenwald]

I would like to actually take one, if I may. Brief step back. Just to contextualize our conversation about John Sugar and his journey when they revealed that he was an alien. Widow's Bay is the best television show of the year to such a staggering degree.

[Chris Ryan]

Poster look who's trying to get an FYC campaign.

[Andy Greenwald]

Let me try again. Which camera? Widow's Bay is the best television show of the year. M. Dash. Andy Greenwald, comma, primary, host of the Watch podcast. Oh, that's for the poster Primary. You were traveling okay. Of course, I was gone for a week too. But anyway, my point is this show is so good in a way that staggers, humbles and delights me. Like my experience watching it is such that I am enjoying it. I'm laughing, I'm riveted, and I can't stop thinking at every moment of all of the brilliant creative decisions that went into almost every frame of it. Before we even talk about these episodes, I'm gonna talk about like the directorial and cinematograph and camera choices that are. That are involved in a show this specific, this tonally and aesthetically specific that shifts. It's a period piece this week. Previous week, it was a crazy drug trip. There have been, I believe, four directors so far. Hiro Mirai, Sam Donovan, Ti West, Andrew DeYoung and Andrew DeYoung, who works with Tim Robinson a lot and is fantastic. There is no aberration from episode to episode. That's the kind of thing that you see in a long running show where there's enough of a book on it and a style guide that when people come on, they feel comfortable knowing what it is they're stepping into. To do that from a cold stop is just remarkable.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

The tonal balance of this show, to be legitimately scary, to be legitimately funny, and to be legitimately emotionally gripping is something I've never seen done before. And it's doing it in such a. It's subtle in the sense that this is not a giant, expensive, starry adaptation of something. It is not based on pre existing material. It is not. It was not presented to us as the next big show. The way that it was put together with just this like quiet confidence, competence and, you know, occasional brilliance is wild to me. It's wild to me.

[Chris Ryan]

Co sign everything you just said the.

[Andy Greenwald]

And by the way, I know this isn't really a valuable comment, but everyone's talking about that. Yes, like everyone. When I have conversations with people, someone will be like, oh my God, the editing. The editing is so exceptional. Someone will say, oh, notice Allison Jones, the legendary casting director. You know, Freaks and Geeks Barbie, the office veep. She worked on this. And you can tell, like down to the guest stars, week to week. I'm blown away.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, and to your point, several shows that I have been from not engaged to highly engaged with over the last couple weeks have come out on Netflix. And Amazon Spider Noir, for instance, dropped its whole season. Legends we talked about like the Burrows on Netflix. I talked about with Joe last week. Feels like in the sort of larger conversation, their, their moments already come and gone in some ways because you just, your, your engagement with a binge is individual and personal. Nobody is on the same page. You can feel Widows Bay uptick in group chats and in conversations at, I'm sure school pickup or whatever where it's like, what are you watching? Or like dinner parties or conversations at restaurants. And it's like people are picking up on Widow's Bay. They are catching up on Widow's Bay. They are excited about Widow's Bay. I feel like there was like a, almost like an awareness that this is a special two part event this week. Completely agree with you. There's also something like, you know how I, I always, I hear Sam S mail in my head where it's like, you cannot get mad at a piece of art for what it didn't do.

[Andy Greenwald]

He was talking to me.

[Chris Ryan]

But like, you can't be mad about the choices that it makes. It's like you have to evaluate the choice it did make, not what it could have been. I want to just say that in less sure hands or in a, a less certain showrunner's hands, like, other than Katie Dippold, like, this would have been. This. Our history episode would have been drunk history. It would have been Betty Gilpin doing kind of Krasinski Gym Office Faces while all this stuff is happening. Because she basically is doing a note perfect 18th century, like Puritan Woman, but also doing Amy Poehler and Brooks and Rec. Like she has comic timing and she is giving it a modern sensibility, I think. Yeah, that is like, as soon as I got here, I was like, what the fuck is going on? You know what I mean? Like, she has like that kind of like, I know you're watching me and this is a break from this show's. Reality. But I'm going to be consistent with the way Matthew Reese reacts to things on the island as well. Even though it's 300 years apart.

[Andy Greenwald]

How did they do that? How did they. How did they do a 300 year flashback episode with the confidence of a show that has been running for multiple seasons?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

There's these subtle choices that I'm dazzled by. Like, we watched the first episode and we raved about it and then we watched the second one. And I think we took time to praise the fact that the show seemingly pitched itself in the first episode as here comes the big trouble. Like, this is going to be an event series, for lack of a better word. But then almost immediately, it walked it back. The tourists did come and there was suddenly more space for episodic situational comedy or hijinks of this type of horror film, this type of horror story. And I was ready to settle into a perceived take of. That's pretty smart for a show that might run multiple seasons, made by someone who worked on Parks and Rec, for example. Then I realized it was doing both at the same time to make the commitment to do the flashback to the island's founder and then deal with that character and blow it up.

[Chris Ryan]

This is exactly where I want to

[Andy Greenwald]

go with multiple episodes to go is a level of confidence in the larger story project that is remarkable. And it caused me to go back, though, and notice all the little smart decisions like the fact that episode three Sea Hag and episode four Beach Ready, which is a contender for episode of the year, are happening concurrently. So playing with time in a way to pre address the idea beach reads

[Chris Ryan]

is the Patricia episode.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes. To almost pre counter the criticism that it can't. That befouls a lot of television, which is it can't be the most important thing that's ever happened if we have time for a bottle episode or a side quest. All of these things are not amateur decisions, you know, they are not rash decisions. They are thoughtful, considered decisions that are paying off the story. And so all of that is preamble to say these two episodes were ballsy as hell and I'm glad they dropped them together, which is another smart decision.

[Chris Ryan]

When they were digging him up at the end of, I think at the end of our history, they start digging him up.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

I was like, that was cool. And I'm sure they're digging him up to get the necklace right or something, you know?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's not what they did.

[Chris Ryan]

This is comic screenwriting that is being Applied to a sort of chamber horror drama where it's like, what if he was still alive in that box? And then what if Hamish Linklater was just on this show for an episode? And what if instead of being unfrozen caveman lawyer who's freaking out about like there being electricity and stuff, he's actually like, I've decided I, I, I need to die because I've been tortured for hundreds of years. And then he's like, actually, I kind of want to live.

[Andy Greenwald]

Can I throw one more what if at you? What if our. Our meaning the audience's introduction to his resurrection or he never died. The fact that he's still alive is played entirely through the perspective of Tom waking up from one of the most hellacious 24 hour mushroom trips and record so that he shows up and Richard is already upstairs. Yes. There is no jump scare in the

[Chris Ryan]

coffin and Patricia is rattled and Wick has already cut his hand trying to open. Like, there has already been all this stuff happening while Tom is like, I've been asleep for a day.

[Andy Greenwald]

That is another sign of filmmaker confidence, storyteller confidence, that we don't need to hit every potential.

[Chris Ryan]

It's funnier to have them be like, don't open that. We tried that already.

[Andy Greenwald]

We already did it. We're behind. Our main character is behind the.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So in Seasickness, which is directed by Sam Donovan, as Andy mentioned, who, you know, worked on Skins and Severance and the Crown and written by Dave Harris. I've seen this many people say this has got a lot of Jaws juice on it. And it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Jaws juice?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Well, just like the three of them on the boat singing and kind of looking for something out there. I thought this was a really cool episode. And I really liked how even though it's basically all shot within the cockpit of Wick's boat, the time it takes to be like, here's the practical amount of space and time that needs to be covered. He has to get to this buoy. But Wick can't go past the buoy. Tom can. Richard needs to, to be evaporated into bones. But, you know, like, you never leave anything and it isn't an exposition dump, but you do get a sense of, like, when's we're going to get off the boat and how is, or how is Tom going to be able to sail the dinghy? And what's, what are the rules? Yeah, what are the rules? And it's still only 40 minutes or whatever it is, and it still flies by and has time For a B plot of Evan discovering that his mother at least didn't die during childbirth. If not is, I would imagine. I'm starting to wonder if she's still alive somewhere. Right.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, I think. Are we now onto Supposition Corner? I mean, I, I, I think, I

[Chris Ryan]

don't know if this is, like, Supposition Corner could be another recurring segment for us.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know if it's going to go well for us. I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

Not as good as. Your silence is deafening.

[Andy Greenwald]

That's a much. That was awesome. I'm a little spooked because this is the week because the Knicks swept their way to the Finals.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Andy Greenwald]

All of the. It's a basketball team that. All of the video footage of NBA experts being like, the Knicks overpaid for Jalen Brunson. And this is a. Not the kind of signing that will get you.

[Chris Ryan]

Becky Hammond being like, you'll never win with a small guard.

[Andy Greenwald]

I'm just saying I don't want to. I want to be very careful now that I know that these takes live forever. I didn't know that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Until this week, I thought. I didn't know that all of these podcasts remained on Spotify.

[Chris Ryan]

We talked about anything of consequence. I think that might matter. But since we're mostly talking about. Did you ever watch Iron Man?

[Andy Greenwald]

That dude was an alien. Okay, that's fair. No. So, okay, I could say this as a Supposition corner, or I could say it about, like, the. Watching a show that is made by people who know what they're doing is just such a pleasure. But in the second episode, when Tom locks himself into the hotel overnight, we do see weird paintings and scary paintings. And we see that also in the first episode when he's touring Bashir Saladin through the museum or whatever. And I think when we saw that, we were like, well, Katie Dippold really learned from Parks and Rec about how funny historical shit can be. One of the paintings in the hotel is of what appears to be a toddler loose at sea. And I feel like I'm not the only person. I've not read any coverage of the show yet, but, like, that is clearly Richard's daughter, who received the brooch, coming off of the boat, making it back to the mainland, and then beginning a bloodline that ends with Tom's son.

[Chris Ryan]

Look at the big brain on Brad.

[Andy Greenwald]

This is probably the most cover.

[Chris Ryan]

My job is to go digging in the crates for that kind of stuff

[Andy Greenwald]

that just Appeared in this crate.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, that was straight from my brain. There's many ways to watch this show. And you can watch it with a scalpel or you can watch it and you can sit there and, and, and just marvel at the, the comic tone and.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And the, the spooks and the creeks in the night. You know, it's great.

[Andy Greenwald]

I actually, I think, I mean, this is praise. I, I don't care that, that this kid is related to the founder of the island. Like my enjoyment of the show is not dependent on.

[Chris Ryan]

I've seen some people be like, they should have thrown the bones overboard because I think they bring Richard's bones.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, there, there's, there's ways they should have behaved. That's a cool way to watch television.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I mean, I like that will probably come back to literally haunt them that they did not get rid of

[Andy Greenwald]

Richard's bones and his Vienna sausages.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. If you were Richard.

[Andy Greenwald]

Uh huh.

[Chris Ryan]

And you're, you're 330 some years old.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is it a gift shop blowing your mind, aren't you?

[Andy Greenwald]

Just like, holy shit, I'm on a T shirt.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. There's lights.

[Andy Greenwald]

I, I don't know. I was basically, you know, living alone.

[Chris Ryan]

You're like, the Knicks have gotten how far with a small guard?

[Andy Greenwald]

Dude, I'm just like. I was living alone in London, one of the greatest cities in the world, for seven weeks and I almost lost my mind.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

He was in a box for 300 years and he came out pretty chill.

[Chris Ryan]

I know. Take that, Nate. I'm just saying maybe keep it together a little.

[Andy Greenwald]

Chill out. Yeah. So I, I was okay with that. He's a little bit, he's a little bit touched. You know, he's a little bit different kind of guy. Buried alive, having a moment.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Top five burials. Alive, Alive burials.

[Andy Greenwald]

Don't list the other.

[Chris Ryan]

The Bride.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, you want to do the other three because this could burn us if there's another one.

[Chris Ryan]

We're doing the Bride, the Ryan Reynolds movie Buried when he.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which was a remake of a Danish movie. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Of course. You know that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. This is what it means to be. This is the international sign for being buried.

[Chris Ryan]

How would you know that?

[Andy Greenwald]

Because the movie was in Danish and I didn't understand any of it except when the guy was like this, who's

[Chris Ryan]

another really good buried alive person.

[Andy Greenwald]

Nikki Santoro in Casino.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Spoiler. Sorry.

[Chris Ryan]

Nicky's barely alive when he goes in.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think that's a distinction that's worth noting.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Don't they hit him with a bat like 150, 50 times.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, but not. But he's alive. I'm not saying he's alive for long, but burial alive.

[Chris Ryan]

Burials alive. Hit us up the [e-mail]. let us know your favorite.

[Andy Greenwald]

That'd be good.

[Chris Ryan]

Evan. Now you, you've talked a little bit about the, the links you're seeing, the theories you're. You're theorizing. He is an example of another thing that this show does really well, which is it can have storylines that last 25 minutes and are deeply satisfying. It can have storylines that last multiple episodes, like say, the mushroom trip, which obviously has after effects. If you were Tom and you had just tripped your balls off for multiple days, you'd probably be like, am I still high when you meet a 300-year-old man?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But it turns out he shares something in common with him because the mushrooms spoke to both of them. The Evan plot is obviously like, I guess. Would you call this a season long runner? Is this guy's rebellion and search for self.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And by the way, Kingston Rumi Southwick, who plays the kid, is the presumed innocent cast having a moment?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

Him and Chase Infinity both having.

[Chris Ryan]

They are having a moment.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

He's great.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. I think that it's. Again, it's just the smart construction where it is often rebellious teenage characters are created purely to exist as stress and plot creators for the main character. But this kid is given the dignity of his own plotline. Like there's a tiny moment in the episode where he is, you know, called out or caught by Bashir the sheriff. And he says to him, would it be cool if when I turned around to go back to my friends, I yelled, fuck you, pig. And Bashir says, absolutely not. But then he. But then the camera cuts back to him to smile about it and it's like, that's a human moment in a show that would otherwise, you know, might not need to have room for that. I do want to digress again, which I know is off brand for this podcast, especially today, but as our resident pharmaceuticals expert, you were asking. Tom's experience in the previous two episodes ago, was that similar or dissimilar to when we met for the second time ever on the streets of South Florida?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think my emotions in 1996 was nearly as intense as those guys. I think that they were dealing with some serious. Mine was like four hours long.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That night.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And largely enjoyable other than seeing the Death Star in the sky. Oh, and maybe Feeling like I was

[Andy Greenwald]

in Apocalypse now somehow, the Death Star.

[Chris Ryan]

And then my buddy tried to climb into like a two by two shelf in his closet.

[Andy Greenwald]

How'd that go?

[Chris Ryan]

Didn't work. I mean, but he was like, I'm going in there.

[Andy Greenwald]

But what's weird is. And people want the full story of this. Can listen to the Trainspotting episode of Rewatchables. I think we get into this great, great granular detail.

[Chris Ryan]

But we should create a lore playlist

[Andy Greenwald]

for my memory of. What was weird about my experience was that me and my girlfriend at the time were walking downtown towards Tower Records to buy the Tribe Called Quest record that came out that night. But we were. I do the work. Hashtag ally. Before that was a thing. We were walking and we were stopped by.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that the love movement or beats rhymes in life?

[Andy Greenwald]

We were stopped by police officers from walking down a street saying, no big deal. Can you go around? There is a suspect on the loose on this street. And a block later I see your ass and you're just like, hey, what's up? Now did you interact at all with the police activity?

[Chris Ryan]

If I did, I think that would

[Andy Greenwald]

have freaked you out.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think I did. I did. I was aware of that activity.

[Andy Greenwald]

But, you know, you were focused on the big picture in the sky.

[Chris Ryan]

I also think Philly pd, they try to keep the crowds moving. You know what I mean? Like it's.

[Andy Greenwald]

They always say it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Man, what a show. I'm so excited for these last few episodes. So 8, 9 and 10 still to come over the next three weeks as a segue.

[Andy Greenwald]

Because we're going to talk about Spider Noir in a second and Spider noir does not deserve all these strays. But it's just. It's what we got this week. I want to uplift Widow's Bay even further. Just to say that this show exists because Katie Dippold was passionate about a story and a vibe and a tone and a type of show that she wanted to make. And she found incredible partners who were open minded and excited to join in and bring their talents. And Hiro Mirai and everyone else that she assembled to make the show, it only comes from that relatively pure creative act.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Her.

[Andy Greenwald]

Which is rare in movies and in TV these days, where a lot of what we see is an example of people doing their absolute best work to clear a relatively arbitrary bar that has been set for them by rights holders or development executives or network executives or whatever. That's part of the job.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And it can be done.

[Chris Ryan]

You guys are all free to write novels, you know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Exactly for free to be subsumed by generative.

[Chris Ryan]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Hey, you could be earning 2% daily cash back on that purchase. And that one and even that one. That's because Apple card users earn 2% daily cash back on every purchase, including everyday items they buy online or in store when using their Apple Card. With Apple Pay, not an Apple Card customer, you can apply in the Wallet app on iPhone subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs bank usa, Salt Lake City Branch Terms and more at Apple Co Benefits this episode is brought to you by Brooks Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world, the cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn [e-mail] I think this is actually segues nicely into Spider Noir as you alluded to. So Spider Noir is a new show executive produced by Lord Miller on Amazon Prime. Whole season's already up. It is a extension, I guess, or a riff on a character that Nicolas Cage played in across the Spider Verse, I believe.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. In the Spider Verse movies he voices a version of this character. I. I do think it's a sad sign of how cooked we are that all of the press for the show makes it clear that this is not the same character, because it could be. This is another iteration or expression of the idea.

[Chris Ryan]

It's really weird that they are making that. It's almost like they want to keep the sanctity of these animated blockbusters and do a spin off of it, but not explicitly, because what if it doesn't work? We don't want to damage the brand. I don't know.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well also, but it's even more than that. It's that there is an established canon to these fanciful and honestly brilliant Spider Verse movies that contain the idea that there are thousands of spider people, sometimes spider horses and cars, and that each one has a very distinct identity. And so to protect the gentle souls of these devoted fans, they have to be make it clear that this Spider Noir is not the same Spider Noir. There's just more than one.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, gotcha.

[Andy Greenwald]

Are you feeling better about that?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. This is a show set after World War I, one and it stars Nicholas Cage as Ben Reilly, who is this sort of retired spider man now private detective investigating an honestly like beyond synopsis set of missing persons cases and trying to track people down and trying to get blackmail. And interacts with several, I would assume, canonical Spider man iterations of them. Iterations of Spider man villains. It is an incredible cast of Cage, Lamorin Morris, Brendan Gleason, Lucas Haas, Lee, John Lee, Cameron Britton.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like your guy Jack Houston.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's get him.

[Andy Greenwald]

In a minute.

[Chris Ryan]

You ever watch Boardwalk?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The whole thing. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Do you remember Grantland?

[Chris Ryan]

We used to do the damn thing back then. We put seven shows up.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

And we talked about them.

[Andy Greenwald]

Who put the shows up?

[Chris Ryan]

The podcast, the TV networks. They were like, here's seven TV shows this year. Enjoy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And we were like, yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I wasn't. I was like, actually, this is problematic. And people hated me for it.

[Chris Ryan]

Boardwalk Empire.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Was that the first time you snowflaked out?

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't. First of all, I've been snowflaking out since I first watched the triathlon in 1986. Who will think about the sea

[Chris Ryan]

life that these people are disturbing?

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh, their legs are damp. Who wants to sit in a wet bike seat that is actually like a

[Chris Ryan]

pet peeve of mine.

[Andy Greenwald]

See?

[Chris Ryan]

Wet, wet swimsuit shorts on a bike seat, chafing.

[Andy Greenwald]

Thank you for speaking your truth. Usually you hang me up.

[Chris Ryan]

The way I say it sounds kind of cool and, like, normal.

[Andy Greenwald]

I know. It also suggests that your childhood was like. Like fucking Goonies all the time. And I was just alone in my backyard going like this. Except didn't have a backyard. Anyway, no, Boardwalk Empire. I was like. It was kind of like prestige karaoke. Even then it had some moments.

[Chris Ryan]

The reason why Widows Bay is able to pull off the two episodes that they did this week is because of choices and confidence in those choices and commitment to those choices. I think that nothing sums up how I feel about Spider noir. The two episodes that I watched and sort of some light scrubbing through some of their episodes, nothing sums up how I feel about it more than the fact that when you click play on the Amazon prime video app or site, you are offered a choice between true hue color or authentic black and white. Now, there's a. Probably a reaction some people have where they're like, cool. I love choice. I want. I want them to choose. I don't actually like this present, the

[Andy Greenwald]

show you want me to see.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think it's. I think it's indicative of how I ultimately feel about this show that neither looks very good. The black and white is not high contrast enough for my taste. It doesn't have that atmosphere of old noir movies. That I think it's looking for. It kind of has a monochrome to it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And the true hue looks like running Sin City through a color, like, colorization program to, like, pop colors. And I kind of found it really distracting. And I. I have to say, I don't know if I've really ever talked about this. Oh, I'm not a huge Nicole Skage guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

I like him.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I like him at his peaks. I like him at his. His lynch weirdness. I love Raising Arizona. I love Wild at Heart. I love Moonstruck. I love the Rock and Con Air, but I am not. Like, everything this guy does is so fascinating and.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I agree with you.

[Chris Ryan]

And awesome. And do you feel like he's, like, kind of playing with. With one hand behind his back in this game, like, or something, like. Or. I don't know. Why am I, like. I'm, like, way more into Brendan Gleason and Lucas Haas in this show than I am Nicolas Cage.

[Andy Greenwald]

I feel like I'm gonna meet you halfway on this. I think that Nicolas Cage being the star of the show and making the choices that he makes is probably the most interesting thing about it. That said, I agree that it ultimately is not that interesting. I think it's fun seeing an actor who I think is. This is not a controversial opinion. Hasn't. Hasn't had laser focus for swaths of the last two decades in terms of

[Chris Ryan]

his career choices, and got some notes to pay off.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's true. So to see him kind of, like, relatively locked into something that he could do quite easily is amusing. And there are moments, like, there's a moment in the second episode when Ben Reilly pretends to be a plumber. And so it's Nicholas Cage pretending to be someone pretending to be someone. And you feel the liveliness of it that. That pops even in the. I agree. The kind of cloudy black and white sidebar. Like, if you want to see an argument for black and white in the 2020s, watch Ripley, which is. Every frame is so beautifully considered and composed that there's no other way that you could imagine seeing it. And I would say I don't think

[Chris Ryan]

this Goat Season, but it's also.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's not anecdotal to say this. This was like Garrett Bash, who's the producer of that and producer of many, many other FX shows, works with Taika Waititi. A of lot basically said that they just shot it one way, and then they told Showtime who they were making it for. That's what we did. Because Showtime was like, can you give us options?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

And I think giving options is a hallmark of a successful contemporary creative career, but it is not necessarily the quickest or straightest path to great creative solutions. So in the case of the show, Oren Uziel is the showrunner. And I think that he has done a really, really solid job doing something that I'm not sure is possible to do in a way that would satisfy. Yes. And what I mean is he is clearly a talented writer and clearly a talented storyteller and clearly confident in the ways that are necessary to get something like this over the finish line and get it made. But some of the things that are most on display here is a very contemporary writerly skill, which is tightrope walking, which is finding or trying to find a healthy balance between the two great flavors that don't always necessarily taste great together. You can see the indecision in the options of how to screen it. But for me, the most damning indecision of the show is, is this a noir show or is this a superhero show? And I know which side I find more interesting. And I found it as I watched a couple episodes of it, the constant safe return to the home base of. But actually that guy's the Sandman. Actually, it's just going to be a superhero.

[Chris Ryan]

If he gets pushed off the roof, he can always sling some webs to.

[Andy Greenwald]

I found that. I don't even know what the word is. It's not disappointing. I just found it non elevating.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that because of the dominance of superhero and comic book stories over the last 20 years, you and I have. Have often said, like, use it as a Trojan horse to make the thing you really want it to make. And at. I, I don't back off of that. But if a guy gets shoved off a building, it's supposed to be a dramatic moment where you're like, is this it for this character? And. Or you know, even if he's just at the edge of the building, because that's a place. I'm sure there's dozens of more moments where guy's got a gun on our hero and he's standing at the edge of a roof and it's like, what's going to happen? I think that if you can throw webs from your wrists to save your own life, it kind of just robs the dramatic moment. And that's something that comes up a couple of times in these two episodes that I've watched. I also, I mean, as noir storytelling goes, I have found it a little bit Too. In between.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

One long story and episodic stories of like. And now I have another case this week. You know, it's a cool idea and I am applaud them being able to do it. There's also a little bit of Agents of SHIELD stuff happening here where I'm like, you guys, is it Spider man or what? Like, you know, like, choose. Just. Just if this is like, let these guys cook. Like. Yeah, like let them have the toolbox or don't.

[Andy Greenwald]

To me, what would be interesting. I hear your point about like. It just. It's kind of a cheat code to reduce stakes if everybody can survive anything. The thing that. That I was disappointed to see but not surprised to see was that the. That everyone has superpowers.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

What's interesting to me about the concept would be about a guy who's a private eye who is basically cursed with abilities that other people don't have. And then what do you do with it? Like the idea that he could. I mean. Cause it is a classic trope of detective fiction and noir that the detective takes more damage than anyone could possibly survive and keeps coming. He would have maybe a more legitimate reason for being able to get back up again despite the bruises, but. But the first person he encounters in his detective mission can ignite himself on fire, which is immediately makes me just to me that flattened the stakes. If there's gonna be two shows where there are the normals. And Lamorn Morris is doing a great job playing Robbie Robertson and another canonical journalist character from the Spider Verse. He fits into this world like a glove and is having a lot of fun. And the scenes with him and Nicolas Cage pop for me. But he's existing down here with the normals and Ben Reilly's up here with the superpowered freak shows. And that is less. I find that less interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you like the stuff with Gleeson and Hoss? The Silvermane stuff?

[Andy Greenwald]

I like those actors.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I like those actors. I think my biggest disappointment is as television shows budgets have gone up and visual spectacle has gone up. The opportunity to really. To make the writing, for lack of a better word, more muscular and kind of the star has gone down. And certainly there are plenty of things that are overwritten, but the idea of the writing being the star of a show is not really in vogue. Everybody wants to have room to have the banter that goes bang, bang, bang, bang bang. And then the scene starts. Yeah, that bang bang is noir. That's noir dialogue. And so I wish there had been more opportunities to play that out. Because instead it kind of fell flat to me. You have the trappings of what it's supposed to be with Lee Junli as a, you know, as an ingen.

[Chris Ryan]

Femme fatale.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, femme fatale. And you have Ben Reilly as the put upon gumshoe. Gumshoe wanders into her place of business where he doesn't belong and he's declassing the joint. And then you have dialogue where he's like, well, a singer has to know all the numbers. Maybe a detective has to know all the answers. That's not that snappy. That is a simulacrum of snappiness, you know, So I. But again, there are a lot of mouths to feed when you have a show like this. And, you know, I want to be transparent because we touched on this when we brought up the trailer. Like this was something that I pitched on and I was involved in. And I don't want this to sound like sour grapes because I did not get this job. I did not deserve to get this job. And Oren New Zeal did a much better job than I ever would have. But it was interesting to be inside of the process of how stuff like this gets made. And truly the way stuff like this gets made is off of the success of the Spider Verse movies.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that anybody who works, most people who work in 2026 probably know the experience of, wow, there's a lot of people on this zoom now, how did this happen? You know what I mean?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's like, it's not, it's not a bad thing. Nobody involved probably has ill intentions. And you know, the way that those things kind of bloat is natural. But there you could probably do like a hard, A clear eyed assessment of like, what's this person? What's the, like, what is the reason why this person is now giving me notes about this stuff or whatever. And it's. You're right. Part of the job of the 21st century screenwriter showrunner is to please all the different stakeholders.

[Andy Greenwald]

And because the genesis of this is Spider Verse was a big hit. And so Sony and Lord and Miller sold a package of Spider Verse shows Creatives unattached to Amazon. And the first one, which was Silk, went through two or three showrunners over a period of years and eventually frittered out never got made. The process that I was a part of for this one frittered out years ago and was stopped and then restarted a year later. And. And then this was the development process of it. And. But even in my limited experience, like Lord and Miller are. I mean, I think they're geniuses with what they do. No one does what they do. And it's incredible to watch the final product of. They are also creators. So to walk into a process that's like, we. We have these toys. What do you want to do with them? Because Amazon's going to make the show if we hit the target that we haven't been able to fully articulate yet. And then you also have the stakeholders who wanted a superhero show and the stakeholders who wanted to be involved, but maybe not as involved. And then there's the Marvel presence, and then there's Amy Pascal, and, like, that's really, really hard. So I bring that up, not to spill personal stuff, just to say, like, to get this show on the air looking really good is fucking amazing. It's just ultimately not something I think. I think we want to spend eight hours watching. And it's incredible that it's there. All these good intentions, good performance and good thinking that went into it.

[Chris Ryan]

What do you think is the logic behind making it a Binge?

[Andy Greenwald]

I have no idea. I mean, the only thing that I would say is maybe like, if you watch the Boys or if you remember how the boys was released.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. 311 1.

[Andy Greenwald]

But the first season was a binge.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So I think that Amazon has some internal metrics that are like, for this type of genre show or this fan base, it's better to give it to them.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it seems like, yeah, if I remember correctly, I think Off Campus, which is a big hit for them, went up as a binge. I imagine any successive seasons of Off Campus, I could see that being pulled back. I think the Summer I Turned Pretty happened. I mean, it's been interesting to watch that network I wouldn't say stumble into, because I'm sure it was very, very conscientious, like, kind of owning YA and owning, like, young female romance stories. They have like a whole vertical there where it's like, obsession is in session. And it's like, not only is it a bunch of originals, but they've curated all these, like, movies that they think fit into this aesthetic. I wonder whether or not they'll continue to do stuff like that. And Peter Friedlander, you know, who we remember from Netflix, is in charge over there now. But, like, I. It'll be interesting to see if that streamer in particular becomes less about release dates and more about, like, centers of interest verticals, basically.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think that's a. That's a. I don't know if it's smart. I think it is a clever and defensible programming strategy. But I would say that the executive mandates and executives themselves have moved around so much that a lot of these streamers and services that even what we, we have done podcasts where we were like, ah, Paramount Plus's central argument for existence is coming into focus. Yes, it's working for them. They found a couple things that work and they're building from them mostly Taylor Sheridan and, and the shows that fit into that aesthetic. Taylor Sheridan's gone under the new leadership.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, Dutton's doing very well. No, I mean he's going to finish out a couple of shows, but yes,

[Andy Greenwald]

for sure, Dutton's A Hu Ranch is a huge hit. I'm just saying that, like, he is now moving to Peacock and so what will Peacock do? Similarly, you know, Amazon seemed like it was finding some, some, some fertile ground with the YA stuff and then also

[Chris Ryan]

the MA stuff, the Terminalist and Reacher and Jack Ryan and like dad stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

And we don't fully know what their direction is going to be under Peter Friedlander, but I thought it was. But I noted with interest and we talked about this briefly with, with Kaya, not the show itself, but the release strategy that Terminalist, I think, has been on the shelf and is finally getting a release date for its second season in October. So if they wanted to keep pumping that well until it was dry, they haven't really done it and that might signal that that's not what they're doing. So I don't know, they just want

[Chris Ryan]

to get Terminalists closer to midterms.

[Andy Greenwald]

Oh yeah. Or are they trying to read the electorate? Do you think that the plight of the white Africana farmer is like going to be a real driving issue in Maine?

[Chris Ryan]

I, I just wonder. This is probably a topic for a different show, but I wonder if in I, I know that when we've talked to Casey Bloys, like when he, Casey came on the show, he talked about how he was like, I'm on 20 spring of 28. Yeah, I'm, I'm planning out. HBO has that thing where there's this baton pass from one show to the other over the course of the year. They tried it. There's usually like a couple of weeks of like docs or event programming or whatever, but you usually have a Sunday night show to hang your laundry on. And I just wonder whether or not as people increasingly find themselves detached from the cable bundle and also watching things almost entirely on their own schedule and entirely up to their own tastes in the Same way that, like, I know Drake put three albums out last week, but in some ways I don't feel like that happened, you know, because in my algorithm, just not a huge deal. Do you basically get away from the release schedule as a paradigm for television and make it more about like what we want is to have stuff there so that when people have found a vibe that they like, they can continue to watch things. Netflix has explored this for sure, but Amazon and their really strong links to the publishing industry I think is exploiting their kind of ability to be like, this book is hot. Make it into a show. This book is hot. Make it into a show. So it'll be interesting to be talking about this deep into the Talarico administration.

[Andy Greenwald]

You know, I can't wait. I think that one of the less talked about in terms of the front facing, like actually watching TV show storylines is are these streamers better served programming for untapped viewers who will sign up

[Chris Ryan]

for the service or making deep obsessives of the people who already have it?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, and I think that was the Star Trek strategy that Paramount was doing for a while of like our floor is the however many people watch everything that says Star Trek on it and we know that they'll pay for our service because that's what we have. There was some really interesting reporting in the last month and also a good episode of the Town podcast about this which is like Peacock saying we're getting closer to profitability and then looking under the hood. And what does that mean? Yes, and the most interesting thing about that to me wasn't the rise in subscribers and what the NBA has done for them. It's the fact that like, apparently I'm paraphrasing here, but that the churn rate rate was still very, very high of

[Chris Ryan]

people signing up and then like they

[Andy Greenwald]

signed up for the NBA to see

[Chris Ryan]

how many people cancel after NBA.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, and I so that. So maybe the tier isn't the subscriber number, it's the stability number of like how many people you maintain from the people you get at Hot.

[Chris Ryan]

One of the reasons why I've always been confused when there seems to be overlapping Taylor Sheridan shows because I'm like, couldn't you just spread these out so that there's 12 months of Taylor Sheridan shows and you don't have anybody ever trying to cancel.

[Andy Greenwald]

That sounds like a. Like a wipe.

[Chris Ryan]

That's a meep.

[Andy Greenwald]

The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with fanduel predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes and misses. Predict the spread, the total points and even the game winner. Sign up for FanDuel Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by FanDuel Prediction Markets LLC. Registered Futures Commission merchant. 18 players plus trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools.

[Commercial Narrator]

Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's Gut Health Challenge by enjoying two Activia yogurts a day for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoy Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling and abdominal discomfort problem.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk a little bit about Top Chef and. And just do some After Dark, huh?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. Do you want to. So we. Should we just wrap up Euphoria?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Next week.

[Chris Ryan]

You could keep Euphoria. I. I like After Dark free for you. It mirrors Nate's last moments.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, should we. I mean, we could touch on it. I feel like we should hit it harder next week.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but let's just. I wanted to just say I am up to date on Euphoria, as are you.

[Andy Greenwald]

I am up to date on Euphoria. I'd like to text you to let you know I am.

[Chris Ryan]

This is the penultimate episode of the season and likely the series, I would imagine. And for the first time perhaps in this show's history, I was bored. I've been using that as a bit of like a little bit of a metric. But I just found despite the intensity of the episode, I felt like I had seen these scenes before. Like there had been. We were repeating a lot of beats and I thought cinematically there was some brilliant stuff in it. I would watch Colman Domingo and Zendaya, as I have in the special that they did, where the two of them talk about addiction and spirituality and salvation and redemption extensively. I think that their relationship, Ali and Rue's relationship, is fascinating. And. And I thought Ali's sort of origin story and him going through the pandemic, losing people that he's the sponsor of, was heartbreaking.

[Andy Greenwald]

And not only heartbreaking. One of the things I mean this as a compliment about this season of television is that there have been a number of fully formed, pretty compelling television shows just tossed out on the table

[Chris Ryan]

like, stuff you find in your pocket and the shooting. Like, Natasha Lyonne makes a cameo as. As. As a prostitute living with Ollie for a while. Like, the cutting and, like, the banter and the energy and the electricity coursing through that.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is absent when Matty is on, like, page. Like, like the 70th iteration of I'm a pimp, but I'm also a manager's assistant, but now I'm a pimp again. And I. I think ultimately, like, Levinson probably had to, like, unite the threads in some ways.

[Andy Greenwald]

I didn't know he was going to try.

[Chris Ryan]

Lexi narcs out everybody, and then Maddie narcs out everybody thing. I. I just really hit my head against that. I was like, I. I don't think these people would be that naive. I don't think Maddie would be so naive as to, like, idly tell Alamo that Rue is now working for the D. A. Yeah, that's fucking crazy.

[Andy Greenwald]

But didn't you feel it coming when she just brought it up when Rue blurted it out?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, and I felt it coming when that scene went on for a long time, being like, obviously, this is going to get away from Lexi as she just passes this along and not to

[Andy Greenwald]

carry water for it. I was starting to feel like in this episode, there is a version of. Or there is a defense of the show baked into the idea that the Hollywood writer, from the comfort of her very nice apartment with beautiful old film posters, that she clearly bought it on posterati. Great place to browse. No ads. But I like it that all of this madness is springing from her imagination.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, that was a season two element. Was like Lexi writing a play about season two. But, yeah, I think the last time we talked about euphoria, I had sounded the alarm that. Or maybe when I was kind of monologuing about it, at which point I.

[Andy Greenwald]

On the podcast, or in your life

[Chris Ryan]

on the podcast, where I mistakenly said that Jesus Christ saw the burning bush and not Moses, which goes to show you what Quaker education does for your biblical studies.

[Andy Greenwald]

Was that the light within? Was it the burning bush?

[Chris Ryan]

I just thought that the crime stuff was starting to reach its. It was getting a little high up in the atmosphere and losing oxygen. And I think this has been proven true, like bringing together Alamo, Nas, Nate, Maddie, Cassie, and by extension, Rue and the Laurie stuff. I just think it's this. Like, he has to do that to end the show. But it just didn't feel as graceful as some of the other moments of this series has for me.

[Andy Greenwald]

I think the Biggest compliment you could give the show is that it is a wildly expensive, wildly audacious improvisatory exercise by someone who had not a blank check, but had a lot of open road and a lot of big stars and a very small window in which to get them all together and to see what happens. It's diminishing returns in terms of just compelling entertainment, I think is fair to say. I do want to just circle back to the idea that Colman Domingo is so alive in everything that he does and the show. I don't know if it's a full show, but about a recovering addict who has become a sponsor trying to keep people alive during COVID I would watch that show.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Andy Greenwald]

And the short story version of it we got was incredibly compelling and also has something. This is not really a fair audience thing to do, I think, consistently, but it's. But sometimes I feel like you can feel a creator lean in, you know, to things that. That are touching the third Alamo origin story, too.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm sure you. I know that you were, like, probably rolling your eyes a little bit at that, but I thought that had energy and I. I thought it had pov. It had, like.

[Andy Greenwald]

It had juice.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it had juice. And so.

[Andy Greenwald]

And that is a marked distinction, I would say, from the scenes that increasingly to me, feel like outtakes from, like, a Bugsy Malone movie where kids are playing dress up.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, and then you get to the Nate part, which is just like,

[Andy Greenwald]

I

[Chris Ryan]

suppose on one hand I could make a defense for it where it's like, you know what? Like, there is no such thing as character armor on the show and. Or plot armor or whatever the term is. But, like, just because it's Jacob Elordi doesn't mean that he's gonna escape from a burial. You know, that was a One of those character arcs that makes you frankly wonder, like, what the relationship between the creator and the performer is aggressive because he doesn't really have a lot to do other than get mutilated this season and then he dies, you know, And

[Andy Greenwald]

I need your context for this, because we touched on this not watching the first two seasons. I am completely unaware of.

[Chris Ryan]

That character is a bad fucking guy.

[Andy Greenwald]

And, like, you could say, so was this justice?

[Chris Ryan]

But that's the thing, is that as Rue and Ollie talk about redemption and, you know, how do you feel about. Like, the fentanyl you've brought over has killed people. And what. What is. What is salvation and redemption in the eyes of that, like, you know, obviously Nate, I think that might be what they're trying to say is that, like, this is a guy who didn't deserve to get out of the hole. I don't know. I mean, like, that is also, like, I, I would be very curious to know what Sam Levinson said about that. You know, maybe at the end of the season, he'll talk a little bit more openly about some of this stuff. You know, you can also speak to Elordi's popularity as an actor and his, his busy schedule and wonder how much of this was like, we have X amount of time with Nate. It doesn't work. He's not gonna be able to show up at Laurie's house with two guns to save Cassie or something like that. Here's what we're gonna do with it. But that felt like a very small plot, like a subplot that just got extended for seven hours. And it's, it was an unsatisfying conclusion to an end of a character who's been on the show the entire time.

[Andy Greenwald]

I thought, I hate the Maddie and Cassie story more. Okay. I find it just completely torturous to watch and so deeply uninteresting, especially because it just kind of, this episode just undoes everything that happened the episode before. It's like the, she's popular on OnlyFans. Now she's going to be in a TV show now she's not on a TV show. Now she's going to go back on OnlyFans. And it's like, I don't find that particularly compelling drama for characters.

[Chris Ryan]

There's also just something missing there where. So, like, I thought Cassie was sending Nate money. Was he not using that money to even put put.

[Andy Greenwald]

Or had she stopped because during she

[Chris Ryan]

was like, this is awesome. I'm getting so much money, but I'm still living in, like, a courtyard apartment. I got, I didn't.

[Andy Greenwald]

But maybe the money stopped concurrent with the brief pause on her only fans account.

[Chris Ryan]

People cancel. But, like, she would have made.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

I, I just don't understand, like, what happened there. Like the.

[Andy Greenwald]

I, I, I don't either. And I will say again, you know who, you know who is giving. One of my favorite performances on the show is Sharon Stone, which is like, you're right.

[Chris Ryan]

Who gives a shit?

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. The Brian Grazer cameo.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

There are a lot of, I mean, there are a lot of good ideas and good performances tossed, tossed out here. But, but what is it building towards? And I guess it's building towards, like, most entertainments, a massive shootout.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You know, I thought it ended with like, a really good, like, fuck cliffhanger. Or like, Faye, you know, a little out in front of her skis. Intellectually, probably a character being like, I don't really know who to trust. I feel betrayed by Rue. I'm gonna wake Wayne up now. There's gonna be, like, this drama. So excited for that. Excited for the finale.

[Andy Greenwald]

When. When you. When you're faced with a choice between an old friend and a Nazi, what can we do? It's kind of like voting in a Texas senatorial race.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's do Top Shot Chef. Crash out season.

[Andy Greenwald]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

This is spoilers for the most recent episode of Top Chef.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, I. And I would say this episode was so upsetting. Kai is not even here today.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, she. She has. She has taken a personal day to just think about Seeger and what he went through and whether that moose killed anyone. The chicken liver pate.

[Andy Greenwald]

The moose. Yeah. Not the snake.

[Chris Ryan]

I enjoyed this a lot as television.

[Andy Greenwald]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you enjoy it as Top Chef?

[Andy Greenwald]

His.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, his behavior after the elimination cook, which takes place over the course of several multiple days, but then ultimately, they have to cook in the woods in the heat.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah, that part didn't bother me at all. I'm excited to talk about it. It was unexpected, especially for a show that has increasingly trended towards actually, we can all get along. Actually, I am here to make friends. So to see someone behave in such an unconsidered way was almost refreshing. I do think that the emails we got back, like, asserting that Seeger is actually a pretty cool guy, all of them came from, I guess, Chef Seeger.

[Chris Ryan]

There are people from, I think, Chicago who are like this. That was actually not representative of who he is.

[Andy Greenwald]

I would say that it is. He still could be a good guy.

[Chris Ryan]

I think he just has a temper. Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But, yeah. Yeah, I would say so. And so to see him crash out was a burst of energy in a show that hasn't had a ton of adrenaline this season.

[Chris Ryan]

We haven't had a moment like that in years.

[Andy Greenwald]

In years. And the judges were shocked by it. And it was such an insane hill to die on, because, as you alluded to, he served melting chicken livers on a hundred degree day.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And I think that if he goes back and watches this show, whether he thinks he. It's edited against him or not, I think he would see, you know, pride comes before the fall. And there was several moments where, you know, whether it was the whole hog cook that sent him home the first time or this particular one where he was so confident that the Gelatin was going to make his chicken.

[Andy Greenwald]

Done it before.

[Chris Ryan]

Cuz he's done it before, but probably not in the woods with coolers of ice. Which one was left open at a certain point. And then I think like him trying to like. In fact, let's go to the tape on them.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was wild.

[Chris Ryan]

Has never worked in the history. Nobody's ever done that. I don't think anybody's ever been like, let's look at the bylaws of Top Chef.

[Andy Greenwald]

Also, he also tried to take Jonathan down with him. He's also a good cook. He might be a good guy, as his friends attest. I don't. This is a TV show and being a good cook and a good guy doesn't have anything to do with winning. The very specific peculiarities of Top Chef, which involves cooking a dish to the rules, but also to the technical specifications and arbitrary likings of a well established panel of judges, let alone vox populi of like a bunch of people showing up and being like, I don't want to eat that. Yes, you lost on that alone. Even if it was well executed, I think so. That that was wild. And it was particularly wild because as you just alluded to, he shouldn't have been there anyway. Like the show messed up earlier by giving him a glide path back onto the show that almost no contestant has ever been granted the grace of.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't even know if it was really that much of a glide path. I just think it is. The way that they edited the series this year to allow for Last Chance Kitchen to have suspense also meant that there was like a three week liminal space of Is Jen on this show? Is Seeger on the show? Who's on Last Chance Kitchen?

[Andy Greenwald]

They were caught very off guard by their own rules of a different sort. And I think Daniel Feinberg in the Hollywood Reporter has a pretty good blow by blow of the screw up. But basically like continuing to tell Jen that she could hang out for as long as she wanted to, even though she couldn't perform on the show and also wasn't really lighting the place on fire anyway, created a circumstance where Seeger is outright eliminated, skips Last Chance Kitchen, where he probably would have been defeated by Rhoda, and then acts in this episode like he is entitled to his.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, Justin could have taken Seeger's spot. You know, Justin could have just been like, yes, I will go instead of Jen. I will.

[Andy Greenwald]

So all of that. But the bigger issue is the show's clearly just ravaged budget is really, really showing up on the screen. Now, and I know that we spent time two weeks ago being like, they never go outside anymore. And then they were literally outside sweating, watching their parfaits melt this week. But there's different versions of outside and being outside and. And a week in which they go to Asheville, which in some ways is the show at its best. Being like, as chefs, we have a unique role.

[Chris Ryan]

The Asheville part was fantastic.

[Andy Greenwald]

The Asheville part was okay. And here's why.

[Chris Ryan]

The Asheville part made me want to go to Asheville.

[Andy Greenwald]

100% successful.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

So if that is the goal, to both highlight a place that looked awesome and also highlight its recent struggles, suggest what we can do and why we shouldn't, forget about it. So mission accomplished. In terms of the flow of Top Chef, I would say an episode in which they're like, we're not going to do a quick fire. You guys are going to get into unbranded vans because we lost the BMW sponsorship. And drive two and a half hours to a town in which you will drive by three to four interesting sounding restaurants and eat snacks at one with no judges or the host present. Felt pretty rinky dink to me. Like, have the courage of your convictions and fucking film there. Or tell Kristen to get in one of these cars and go there too.

[Chris Ryan]

Strange.

[Andy Greenwald]

Don't be like, drive by. I mean, this is what I do when people visit la, where I'm like, that's a pretty cool small plates restaurant. And my guests are like, should we go there? And I'm like, no, we couldn't get in. Like, what. What purpose does that serve for anyone other than my own ego? Do you know what I mean? Like, that was insane. And then later, if you want to

[Chris Ryan]

eat at 4:45 or 10:00pm, yes, you're

[Andy Greenwald]

welcome to it, but I'll be in bed at both those times, weirdly. But like, then when Rhoda's like, I made Filipino food because I was inspired by this restaurant. That's my restaurant. Like, okay, could we see it? Oh, you couldn't afford to show it to us.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a strange thing because a lot has happened this season where I feel like they have been battling the elements. As my wife pointed out the other day when we were chatting about this, she was like, you know, it goes back. You remember the finale of Denver where, like, people's bread didn't rise because they were cooking on the top of a mountain, you know, like, I think about it constantly. This. This is not the first time that Top Chef has made elements an element

[Andy Greenwald]

of the show the rain in the Portland season.

[Chris Ryan]

And there's also, you know, I think I am being a little bit more easily annoyed by, you know, now everybody switch foods with the person to your left or.

[Andy Greenwald]

That was despicable.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, and now mystery diners are voting and we're not. Or now, like, there's a lot like,

[Andy Greenwald]

remember when they were like. And now let us bring out our guest judge for quickfire, a guy no one's ever heard of. Of. Congratulations.

[Chris Ryan]

You really.

[Andy Greenwald]

You really.

[Chris Ryan]

What's strange thing to me is that Canada, which I know is a passion project for gala to have the show go there, was in my memory largely shot on a soundstage. Yes, it was. And North Carolina and South Carolina, which seems hot as has been. 10 shots. Like 10 shoots out, like at a NASCAR track or in the middle of a public park or in Asheville in the forest. Or not Asheville in the forest. Cause they went back back to.

[Andy Greenwald]

They went back for the forest on the Appalachian Trail with a snake.

[Chris Ryan]

That just seems like, why, Why'd you guys do that? I mean, I guess maybe they listened to us and we were like, get the outside. And they were like, you asked for it. Now it's hot as. And nobody's moose congeals. Like, I guess we should take some accountability there. Not that we can dictate what Top Chef does, but I just feel like there's been and. And Feinberg and. And the Hollywood Report. It's a really good piece. Writes about these two institutions that he like. I. I agree with Dan. I wish every Monday had a Top Chef and every Wednesday had a Survivor. I would be a happier person if it was like a 12 month, a year thing. But.

[Andy Greenwald]

And which night are the Sheridan shows running in this 12 month scenario?

[Chris Ryan]

Uh, they just run on my Vision Pro.

[Andy Greenwald]

There you go.

[Chris Ryan]

I think that in some ways, like, they've iterated too much to keep up with maybe perceived Joneses.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't think it's the iteration. I think I just think there's a. There's a budget thing going on that we're not qualified to talk about or even ask. And I think that the answer to the question, if you ask it too loudly is do you still want the show? And you know, it is the only reality show left. Competition show left. No, it's the only competition show on Bravo. It didn't used to be, I mean, Project Runway. And remember, I was still a fan of work of art, the art world one with James.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, couldn't magical elves sell it to Food Channel Like Food Network.

[Andy Greenwald]

I have no idea. It clearly still works on some level for the Bravo Comcast brand.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

It's just they want it to work in this way. And I think you can see the. Like, this is a small thing because we watch it. We either watch screeners or we watch it on Peacock. But currently, the show this season, the show is premiering on Bravo linear on Mondays at a time TBD each week. So much so that I saw Kristen on social media being like, don't forget we're on at 9:30 tonight. For some reason. Like, they're not. Yes. They're not loving that aspect of it

[Chris Ryan]

because it's getting swallowed up by, like, summer house stuff.

[Andy Greenwald]

Right. I would assume. But I do think it needs a rethink because this host and these judges can make worthwhile television. And the finale still could be good. It's not their fault that they tried to iterate by having brothers and a couple, and it amounted to nothing.

[Chris Ryan]

I find that the judges have been marginalized this season, too. There's way too much noise going on around them. I don't feel like I'm hearing. The thing that I love about this show and probably my greatest engagement with it was this sort of run where I think they encourage chefs earlier in the season to cook, quote, their food.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And to. You can think it's cheesy to be like, I'm telling a story or this is about, like, my background. But it actually produced compelling televisual storytelling to have somebody be like, I've grown up through this, you know, French culinary tradition, but now I'm really going to start cooking the stuff that my mother used to make me.

[Andy Greenwald]

But.

[Chris Ryan]

But it put my spin on it. Or I'm bringing technique to something that traditionally is very rustic or whatever it is. I feel like Tom and Gail and Kristen and then at various points, you know, before Padma were really like, you're on Top Chef. Impress us. Like, do it. And now I feel like there's just been way too many goofy things that have stopped someone. Like, for instance, Sheri or Jonathan, who. I just think Sherry is only now starting to be like, I'm making this fritter. Because this is this thing that. And nobody's ever had this before or whatever. And, you know, even Lawrence, who I don't think is very, like, demonstrative about what's going on, but has been cooking this amazing food all year. I don't even feel like they're celebrating it. I don't feel like they're.

[Andy Greenwald]

Well, because I think that the ceiling this season has just been wildly lower. Now, again, you cannot. This is the vagaries of a competition show. You cannot guarantee a Buddha, a Gregory attrition.

[Chris Ryan]

Survivor 50 just had this where it was, like, all the really great players kind of got voted off. And I think Aubrey's good, but, like, you just have, like, at the end, a sort of weird mishmash of people.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And I think that there was a moment earlier in the season where we're like, oh, my God. Rota is another, like, a Melissa or someone who's just like, Melissa King who's just like. Like, day one. Oh, my God. You are rising to every occasion, and you're surprising yourself, and we're on a generational run here. Or, you know, you hope for someone like a Tristan who catches fire later, and you're like, oh, my God. The prince was promised was here all along. You can't guarantee that year after year. But what we're creeping towards now is Lawrence is gonna win, which is deserving.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know about that.

[Andy Greenwald]

But what he has executed, what he has done is a very, very technically precise and satisfying execution of what you were about it, which is like, I grew up eating this kind of food in a Cantonese household, and I am going to be able to execute a version of it that is elevated.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Like a fried catfish on a bow is, like, really cool.

[Andy Greenwald]

And he baked the bread. That was awesome. That was an incredibly compelling performance, performance on Top Chef in which you, the viewer who can't taste the food, sees the degree of difficulty and can just see that they nailed the execution, and that's satisfying. As a viewer, the rest of them are just kind of stumbling their way to the finish line, and maybe someone will step up. But. But I. I find it very hard to imagine that there's going to be a level of excitement, exhilaration, or inspiration in a finale for the way this season has played out. And I don't. I think it would be a mistake.

[Chris Ryan]

I think Rhoda, Lawrence, and Sherry is a good final three.

[Andy Greenwald]

It would be a decent final three.

[Chris Ryan]

Jonathan's still there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Obviously, you know, the loss of Anthony hurts.

[Chris Ryan]

That was a bummer that sucked.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I think that it would be a mistake to walk away from the season and be like, ah, you know what? Sometimes, like, was the guy that won Denver, like, perfectly like, Joe seems like a really good guy. Good chef.

[Chris Ryan]

Good.

[Andy Greenwald]

But, like, not necessarily the heights of ambition or technical, you know, or maybe

[Chris Ryan]

not the drama of Brooke and Kristen or whatever.

[Andy Greenwald]

So, okay, so you can't guarantee that every year there have been down seasons in terms of the excellence on display or whatever. But I think it would be a mistake to focus on that at the expense of the fact that the clear, clear, clear diminishment of. Of ambition and budget is hurting the final product of the show. And I don't know what to do about that, because we're lucky to still have it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

But I don't know. It's. I feel like that's the opposite.

[Chris Ryan]

I'd like to also, like, at some point, we have gotten so many emails about the Padma show and did they have budget?

[Andy Greenwald]

Maybe they did.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it might be worth checking out a little bit more thoroughly to see. It's. It's odd that it was running concurrently.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, you know, I mean, not odd.

[Chris Ryan]

Aggressive, aggressively. Let's wrap it up there.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Monday, this Euphoria finale.

[Andy Greenwald]

Yeah. And so there's a couple other shows I want to check out.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Andy Greenwald]

I don't know if it'll be for Monday, but we have maximum pleasure guaranteed on Apple. We have the Amadeus show that is on Stars. That was in UK last year. I feel like there was probably others. I feel like we need to also

[Chris Ryan]

address the fact that we're getting a lot of new shows, and it's tiring, tired. It's hard to finish them.

[Andy Greenwald]

Did you watch the Burroughs?

[Chris Ryan]

I did. I didn't watch all of it, but I watched, like, three episodes of it.

[Andy Greenwald]

Is it weird to see actors that we think of as relatively young people

[Chris Ryan]

be like, this is just like. Yeah, yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

Like, it's.

[Chris Ryan]

It's very well done.

[Andy Greenwald]

A friend was telling me about the show and was like, well, you know, there's a great scene in Bill Pullman's retirement home, and I'm like, I'm gonna need you to stop there.

[Chris Ryan]

It's true. It's true. Kai, Sarah, thank you. Kaya. Thank you. Andy. Thank you. You.

[Andy Greenwald]

Kai's coming back for the Top Chef finale. That's why she's not here today.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank God. We'll see you guys on Monday, everybody. Have a great weekend.

[Andy Greenwald]

You have a great weekend.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Andy Greenwald]

I include you in that.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you.

[Andy Greenwald]

All the Branskies.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you know if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degree, turn the temperature down with blinds.com and get up to 50% off custom window treatments like solar roller shades and more during the Memorial Day mega sale. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro handle everything, we've got you free samples, real design experts, and zero pressure.

[Andy Greenwald]

Just help when you need it.

[Chris Ryan]

This is your last chance to shop up to 50% off site wide during the Memorial Day mega [e-mail] rules and restrictions apply.