428: Mike Albrecht—Got Wood?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe – Episode 428: Mike Albrecht—Got Wood?

Release Date: March 11, 2025

In episode 428 of "The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe," host Mike Rowe engages in a profound discussion with Chuck Klausmeier and his wife, Vicki Albrecht. As the president of the American Loggers Council, Chuck offers an insightful look into the logging industry, addressing common misconceptions, forest management practices, and the critical role of logging in environmental stewardship and economic sustainability.

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Introduction to the American Loggers Council

The episode kicks off with Mike Rowe introducing his guests, Chuck Klausmeier and Vicki Albrecht. Chuck, the president of the American Loggers Council, shares his journey into the logging industry and the organization's mission to educate the public about the vital role of loggers in managing America's vast forest resources.

Notable Quote:

"Loggers are the same as ranchers, miners, farmers. We're taking God's given natural resources and turning them into something that America wants and needs." (08:06)

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Debunking Misconceptions About Logging

Chuck delves into the historical context of logging in America, highlighting how loggers were among the first to harness the nation's timber resources during the country's expansion westward. He emphasizes that modern logging is a highly regulated and professional field, contrary to outdated stereotypes.

Notable Quote:

"Loggers are professional people, really proud of what we do... We're just great, honest people, just like ranchers and miners." (11:45)

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Forest Management and Fire Prevention

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on forest management practices aimed at preventing catastrophic wildfires. Chuck explains the concept of "fuel ladders" and how thinning forests reduces the risk of fires spreading from the ground to the canopy. He underscores the importance of proactive logging in maintaining forest health and preventing large-scale wildfires.

Notable Quote:

"If we just cut one third more of our growth and one third of our dead and dying timber, we would be wood independent." (19:04)

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Economic Implications: Wood Imports vs. Domestic Production

Mike Rowe and Chuck discuss the paradox of the United States being the largest importer of lumber despite possessing abundant forest resources. Chuck attributes this to reduced domestic milling capacity and environmental regulations that hinder efficient timber utilization. He highlights the economic benefits of boosting domestic production, including job creation and reduced reliance on imports.

Notable Quote:

"America is now the number one importer of lumber in the world... California imports 80% of its wood products." (16:36)

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Environmental Groups and Logging: A Complex Relationship

The dialogue turns to the contentious relationship between environmental groups and the logging industry. Chuck critiques organizations like the Sierra Club for opposing responsible logging practices, arguing that such opposition exacerbates forest degradation and increases wildfire risks. He advocates for collaboration and informed dialogue to reconcile environmental concerns with sustainable logging.

Notable Quote:

"The head of the Sierra Club would expose our hypocrisy because their policies are against what we do." (32:36)

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Innovations in Logging and Biomass Energy

Discussing modern advancements, Chuck introduces the concept of biomass energy and its role in sustainable forestry. He explains how wood waste from logging operations is repurposed into energy, contributing to renewable energy sources and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Additionally, the conversation touches on cross-laminated timber (CLT) skyscrapers, highlighting wood's potential as a primary building material in modern construction.

Notable Quote:

"CLT has been extensively tested and is recognized for its fire-resistant properties... These wooden beams are just solid superstructures." (45:54)

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Recruitment and the Future of Logging Careers

Addressing the industry's labor needs, Chuck outlines initiatives aimed at attracting young talent through education and training programs. He emphasizes the technological advancements in logging equipment, making the field more appealing to a tech-savvy younger generation. Collaboration with educational institutions like Shasta College ensures that aspiring loggers receive the necessary training to thrive in a modernized industry.

Notable Quote:

"We are getting younger loggers in and we're building new sawmills and biomass plants because our community gets it and we get together." (82:02)

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Personal Stories and Industry Advocacy

The personal anecdotes shared by Chuck and Vicki illustrate the human side of the logging industry. From overcoming stereotypes to pioneering sustainable practices, their stories exemplify dedication and passion. Chuck highlights the importance of local community efforts in influencing national policies, advocating for the "Fix Our Forest Act" to promote sustainable logging practices and reduce wood imports.

Notable Quote:

"We're building our seventh wood processing facility... We're making a big push on that and it's working, but it's going to take a while." (73:31)

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Conclusion: A Sustainable Path Forward

As the episode wraps up, Chuck remains optimistic about the future of the logging industry. He envisions a world where sustainable logging practices not only preserve forest health but also drive economic growth through increased domestic production and exports. The collaborative efforts of organizations like the American Loggers Council and forward-thinking legislation are pivotal in achieving this vision.

Notable Quote:

"The timber industry is going to grow and we're going to have more loggers. We're getting younger loggers in and we've been through some tough stuff but better times ahead." (81:45)

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Final Thoughts

Episode 428 offers an enlightening perspective on the logging industry, challenging preconceived notions and highlighting its indispensable role in environmental management and economic stability. Through engaging discussions and compelling narratives, Mike Rowe successfully unveils the complexity and significance of logging in contemporary society.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Loggers are the same as ranchers, miners, farmers. We're taking God's given natural resources and turning them into something that America wants and needs." (08:06)
• "Loggers are professional people, really proud of what we do... We're just great, honest people, just like ranchers and miners." (11:45)
• "If we just cut one third more of our growth and one third of our dead and dying timber, we would be wood independent." (19:04)
• "America is now the number one importer of lumber in the world... California imports 80% of its wood products." (16:36)
• "The head of the Sierra Club would expose our hypocrisy because their policies are against what we do." (32:36)
• "CLT has been extensively tested and is recognized for its fire-resistant properties... These wooden beams are just solid superstructures." (45:54)
• "We are getting younger loggers in and we're building new sawmills and biomass plants because our community gets it and we get together." (82:02)
• "We're building our seventh wood processing facility... We're making a big push on that and it's working, but it's going to take a while." (73:31)
• "The timber industry is going to grow and we're going to have more loggers. We're getting younger loggers in and we've been through some tough stuff but better times ahead." (81:45)

---

Note: Timestamps correspond to segments within the provided transcript and are indicative of when the quotes occur during the episode.

Transcript

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Foreign.

[Mike Albrecht]

It's me again, joined by the ever popular and omnipresent Chuck Klausmeier.

[Vicki Albrecht]

Ever popular, is that right? You're just making up, aren't you?

[Mike Albrecht]

I'm just saying things, you know, I'm making sounds. I wanted to say nice things in the preamble because it occurs to me that I may have been mildly disparaging during the actual episode that's about to unfold, but it was said with love. It's just sitting here face to face, or really whatever, somewhat oblique. You have two laptops open, you have a brand new switcher, you have a dedicated GoPro pointing at you, and you've got a whole separate monitor. And we had a guest sitting next to you the whole time.

[Vicki Albrecht]

There was a lot going on and.

[Mike Albrecht]

Amusing, if I'm being candid. I don't know how amusing you'll find it, folks at home, but I certainly enjoyed watching Chuck out of the corner of my eye. Try and make sense of this podcast, which is a really good one. I'm just going to say. My guest is Mike Albrecht. I'm so glad you found him. Was it Will Swaim who looked this up?

[Vicki Albrecht]

Yeah, Will Swaim. Basically, we had on Ed Ring and you know, to talk about the wild fire management right after fires. Exactly. Right after the fires. And he came from Will because he's also at the California Policy center. And he said, you know, if you want a good follow up, you should talk to this guy because he is the president of the American Loggers Council. And I. I wound up talking to him for the better part of 45 minutes.

[Mike Albrecht]

I told you, you might as well have just recorded it and called that the podcast. Because you really did talk to the guy at length. But. But I see how you got sucked in. He's a wealth of information. He's just warm and funny and real and really on the cusp of something that. Look, this is a big deal, guys. I'll just. Spoiler alert.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

We're calling the episode Got Wood. It's because it amuses me. But there are so many things that I learned about our relationship with timber. Part of this is forest management. Part of this is fire prevention. But mostly this is a conversation about our dysfunctional relationship with a precious resource. And if you start finding parallels in our energy policy, well, then you're just like us. Because I'm sitting here thinking, my God, how can we be the largest? We have more wood in this country. We have more forest in this country per capita than any place in the world. And yet we're the world's largest importer of wood.

[Vicki Albrecht]

Yes, yes. We're the largest importer of lumber, I think is what we are. And we're the largest creator of lumber in the world.

[Mike Albrecht]

Right.

[Vicki Albrecht]

And one third of the nation is forest.

[Mike Albrecht]

Is forest land. Yeah. I mean, there are no new revelations in the energy space, but the fact that all of them translate into the lumber and timber space is super interesting. Your relationship and your reliance on wood and lumber is more keen than you think. This guy is the tip of the spear, as Chuck said. He's the president of the American Loggers Council and he's joined by his wife, who is also delightful. Vicky is super sweet and we threw a mic near her because she is the first Lady Logger of the year.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yes.

[Vicki Albrecht]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

And he's so proud of her. And you'll see why these guys are on a mission. It's an important mission. It rhymes with a lot of what we try and do at Microworks. But just super happy to give him a platform and really hopeful that some of the swamp creatures are listening because there's a big. I think it's the ffa, the forest first. What's the law? What's the thing that's pending? Ah, it's a big bill coming up in front. You know what? It doesn't matter he mentions it. Yeah. Because we're about to talk about it. The name of the bill doesn't matter, but its import and its intent is really critical. The question is. Got wood? The answer is provided by Mike Albrecht right after this. Contrary to what you may have heard, death and taxes are not the only certainties in life. For instance, if you're with Verizon, ATT or T Mobile, you are certain to save a fortune every month by switching to PureTalk. Pure Talk is my sponsor and my cell phone company because they cut the fat from my prior provider. And I appreciate that you will, too. Just 25 bucks a month can get you unlimited Talk, text and 5 gigs of data on America's most dependable 5G network. The average family of four saves over $1,000 a year. When they switch to PureTalk. That's real money back in your pocket. You might save a little more or a little less, but saving is a certainty. And with PureTalk's US customer service team, you can switch hassle free in as little as 10 minutes. You can even keep your phone and your current number. Just go to PureTalk.com RO to make the switch and you' save an additional 50% off your first month. PureTalk Wireless by Americans for Americans. So, Mike Albrecht, you're here with your lovely wife Vicki, who has taken a position next to the lovely Chuck, who continues to impersonate a producer as I sit here impersonating a host. It's all coming together. You good, Vicki?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

You happy?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yep.

[Mike Albrecht]

All right. Fantastic. Is she telling the truth, Mike?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

She is, yeah. She's very truthful.

[Mike Albrecht]

Is she?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Is that what most attracted you to your wife? Her honesty or her good looks or her just her personality? What was it?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

The first time I saw her, she got out of her van and she had on a tool belt and she was carrying a tool bucket and she had a 50 foot cord, electrical cord kind of slung over. And I said, that is going to be my wife.

[Mike Albrecht]

Wait a minute. So she's wearing nothing but a tool?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

No, it hasn't.

[Mike Albrecht]

This is unbelievable. This is amazing. Vicki.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

That's all I saw, baby.

[Mike Albrecht]

I'm so glad you guys made the time to come down and talk. Full disclosure, I don't have a specific agenda. I'm just overwhelmed with a new level of certainty. Having just kind of gone through these fires. I've been talking about forest management and water management and land management with various experts for a long time and it's all. All been very. What is it, sort of ethereal or academic or abstract. And then all of a sudden there's this event, right. And I suspect you can talk about the rim fire and you can talk about the Palisades fire and you can talk. I mean, you've had a front row seat to so much of this, but as the newly elected president, or have you been in this role for a while?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

This is my second year. Yeah, last year. Yep.

[Mike Albrecht]

So you're in charge of the.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

The American Loggers Council.

[Mike Albrecht]

Where does that rank in the pantheon of acronyms? In charge?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Well, the American Loggers Council represents the nation, if you will, nation's loggers. So every state, actually 45 states, have state organizations that represent logging. All those states together combined are the American Loggers Council. So we're looking at about 10,000 companies and about 50 or 60,000 loggers that do the heavy lifting every day to get products to America.

[Mike Albrecht]

I won't lie to you. I'm looking at your notes. There's a yellow legal pad with a lot of really handsome. Well, I mean, your penmanship is terrific. You seem very organized. Can we start maybe with myths and misperceptions and, you know, the beliefs, mistaken beliefs that people hold about our timber industry in general that have led to this miasma of misunderstanding.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. When people think of loggers, what I would like them to think of is ranchers, miners, farmers. Those folks take God's given natural resources that we're blessed with and turn them into products that we use. That's what loggers do. We're the same as those folks, only we're working with timber. So our job is to take timber resources and turn them into something that America wants and needs, and that is usually lumber or certainly wood energy, which we can talk about. But if I can digress a minute, I'll just tell you, loggers started out not very well understood. I'll tell you that when our. When our country was formed, Mike, loggers were some of the first people that went to work. And in fact, back in the early 1800s, Bangor, Maine, was not the leading lumber shipping exporter in America. It was a leading lumber exporter in the world. So. And this is a colonist man. They went to work, they said, we can make something out of these woods, and started logging.

[Mike Albrecht]

They said the canopy went from Bangor all the way down to, like, Sarasota. The whole east coast was essentially a forest.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

You know, I wonder sometimes if. If people hear that and think, my God, look, we took it all. People have no sense of how much is left.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I'll speak to that. So loggers, pretty soon, five presidents bought up 1.5 billion acres over about 100 years. Lincoln, Pierce, Polk, Adams, different presidents. They bought 1.5 billion acres in the Louisiana Purchase to Alaska. And this is interesting, Mike, for three and a half cents an acre, that's what America was purchased for that kind of price from Spain and Russia and Mexico and different countries. And so one of the first things a government said is, go west, folks. They wanted to move, in fact, 11 million people west, and they couldn't get over the Allegheny Mountains. They finally said, yeah, get over there and get going. Well, loggers went out ahead of them. In the 1800s, the Department of Interior managed 80% of America. So their first rule as a government agency was, you will not cut timber on public land. This is back in the 1800s. So loggers are going, okay, well, there's no boundaries. There's no roads, there's no fences. We just. We got to cut timber somewhere. We got to build the transcontinental railroad. And it got off to a very chaotic start, and loggers started getting arrested. They were viewed as thieves and bad people.

[Mike Albrecht]

But what I'm. That's. That's a terrific place to start. We need to go west. You can't go west. There's no roads, there's no railroad, there's no path. So the loggers go in first and catch hell for it.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

And you guys have been catching hell ever since.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. It's taken a while to redeem ourselves, I guess, or change that image. But now were essential to America, I guess, really our image is most tarnished by big environmental groups anymore. That's who we are disliked by. And the most of the public doesn't understand us, Mike. But loggers, they get up in the morning between 1 and 4 in the morning and they go to work in the woods and they do good, honest, hard work. Come home at night, support the soccer teams, all the different things in the community. They're just great, honest people. Just like ranchers and miners and the ones I mentioned. And we're really proud of what we do.

[Mike Albrecht]

So maybe it's pr, maybe it's. How much of your job is involved with crafting an image or perpetuating an image, debunking these perceptions that we're talking about. Because I think on the one hand, most rational people wouldn't disagree with anything you've said. It's just that we've been presented. I say we, the 330 million people who depend on your industry, frankly, for so much. I mean, ever since Joyce Kilmer. Right. I think that I've never seen a poem as lovely as a tree. We like trees. I love trees. People fight over the trees here, trees there. Take the tree, don't take the tree. It gets very emotional, you know. So that's kind of what I want to dig into. Like, well, what do you do to balance what we do?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Part of that is we take people out and tour. We got to get people out of the cities and out of our schools, actually, and come out to the woods and see what we do. And it's very interesting when we do that, Mike. We take kids from all over the state and. And we'll have a tour. And we've got machines that cut down trees that are really neat. They can grab a tree and cut it down and pick it up and lay it down very safely. Very good for the environment.

[Mike Albrecht]

I've seen those. They're mind boggling.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, they're called feller bunchers. So they can cut trees and they put them in bunches. And so we'll do some of that. And the kids are watching and this does. I don't. Whether it's third graders up through high school, they'll watch this and then we'll shut the machine off and I'll say, okay, how many of you kids thought when the saw went through the tree, the tree felt that? Over half, whether they're third graders or high school, will raise their hand. Yeah, I think the tree felt that. I'll say, okay, well, how many of you think when your mom or dad mow the lawn, the grass feels the lawn mower? Never has a kid raised it. And so we are still dealing with an entertainment industry and school teachers that don't know. They don't know to teach biology to kids. We've got a generation that's come up and think trees are not only beautiful, but they have something spiritual or different about them. And so cutting a tree makes a logger not real popular.

[Mike Albrecht]

It's a kind of anthropomorphism, Right?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Projecting a human quality onto a non human thing. Chuck, see if you can find a Feller Buncher there on Google in action. It is worth looking at. I remember the first time that I saw one. I think it might have been on a show that I don't want the credit or the blame for, but Axemen, oh, yeah, was a thing, you know, And I remember the first season that aired, people were taking a position almost that the. That the chainsaw had once upon a time really presented an unfair advantage.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Everyone's talking about.

[Mike Albrecht]

You know what I mean? Yeah, like. Like Chuck's working it out. I told you, Vicki, feel free to jump in if it gets awkward over there.

[Vicki Albrecht]

I could use. I could use the help. Yeah, for sure.

[Mike Albrecht]

That looks like dirty stuff going on there, Chuck. I don't think we can put that up there.

[Vicki Albrecht]

Nobody's looking at that now.

[Mike Albrecht]

I am now. The tiger cat LX830D feller buncher in Oregon. I want to see that. I don't know about the girl taking a shower.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

All right.

[Vicki Albrecht]

This is YouTube. What can I tell you?

[Mike Albrecht]

I know. It's a bold new world.

[Vicki Albrecht]

Oh, my God.

[Mike Albrecht]

Did that just say it gets men rock hard?

[Vicki Albrecht]

I believe that.

[Mike Albrecht]

Honestly, this is a G rating.

[Vicki Albrecht]

This is the last time you're ever going to ask me to pull anything up up on the interwebs is what.

[Mike Albrecht]

I'm thinking so hard right now. She's like, I probably should have just taken the sofa. I probably should be. I didn't have to sit next to him.

[Vicki Albrecht]

All right, look. Here you go.

[Mike Albrecht]

Yeah, we don't need any audio. I just want to show you.

[Vicki Albrecht]

That's just trying not to. Try not to get any audio.

[Mike Albrecht]

There we go. Look at this thing.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. So that's what kids think when they see that happening. They're going, ouch. About half of them are. Yeah, that's a great machine.

[Mike Albrecht]

So you see my point though, right? I mean, people think that back in the 1800s, okay, the lumberjacks went into the woods with their double sided blades and their feathers and their wedges and they started taking trees and. Okay, okay, right, yeah. And then come the chainsaws and then comes this thing. And I guess, you know, if there's some parallel, I think not justified necessarily, but in the way of thinking with maybe, you know, dragnet fishing, like it's just like, wait a second, you're taking too many, it's too easy to get too many fish. And now you've overfished the fishery.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

And people are thinking, you know, it's too easy to take too many trees. And now you've denuded the forests.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

What people don't know, Mike, is the enormity and the blessing of the forest we have. So America has. One third of the country is covered in forest. 800 million acres.

[Mike Albrecht]

That's worth repeating. Just say it again. Because people might have been zoning out.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, I'll say. Okay, so one third of the United States. States of America is covered in forests. 800 million acres. Our country is covered in forest. And we manage that extremely well with really sophisticated equipment that's very easy on the ground, good for the environment. But in spite of everything we're doing correctly, America is now the number one importer. And I'm going to say that again, number one importer of lumber in the world. So folks, that means we are compared to India, China, any other country you want to. We buy and purchase and bring in more wood than any other country in the world, even though we have this vast resource that we could be using and exporting wood. That's really one of the goals of the American Loggers Council is to talk to Congress and say, folks, why are we importing lumber into this country? Why aren't we exporting lumber, using our resources wisely? And instead we're seeing so many millions of acres burn up every year.

[Mike Albrecht]

What are the financial realities of doing that? Like, what's the dollars attached to this industry and what could it be worth? Like, I liken it to energy independence. Why would we import natural gas or oil when we're sitting on a mother load of it? I think the knee jerk answer is, well, because we don't want to take it. We don't want to wreck our land. We'll let you wreck yours or some such argument. Right?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. And that is such a backward. That's really a false argument if you're looking at the global environment. Because nobody, no other country manages their forest like America. Nobody manages their forest with the rules that we have in America and still get the things done that we do in America. So we keep track as an industry of how much has grown and harvest it every year. And then we do it kind of in five year increments. Taking a look at what's going on in the last 75 years, we've always grown more timber in our forest than it harvested in our national forest. I'm speaking of here specifically.

[Mike Albrecht]

I'm sorry, but again, when you look at the feller bunchers en masse, full steam ahead, that claim still holds up. We still grow more than we take.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yes. In fact, right now our forests are burning and rotting twice as fast as they're growing. And we are not able to go out and salvage the products that we need to salvage because of tremendous environmental pressures from groups like the Sierra Club who do not want us into the forest cutting down burned, dead trees. And if I were to point to one of our biggest problems, that would be it, our inability to get in and use the, the dead and dying wood. Mike, if we just cut one third more of our growth and 1/3 of our dead and dying timber, we would be wood independent. We could start to export products. But our industry. I'll just talk about California for a minute, but it's a good example for the Nation. California in 1990s had about 150 sawmills. We were doing a lot of milling. We have 27 now. So we've reduced our capacity from then. California now imports 80% of our wood products. So America is the leading importer of lumber in the world. California imports 80% of its wood products. And we see our forests rotting and dying, our national forest, our public land, at rates we've never seen before.

[Mike Albrecht]

It's scandalous.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, it is. It's taken personally. I've been on this bandwagon for quite a while with Congress. They are now talking about it in Congress. Like some of them are going, wow, we are the leading importer of lumber, really. And they're starting to do some things about it. But it's taken years to get that, just that simple message. Why are we not lumber and wood independent? Just like we're trying to get to be energy independent. We can do it. We've got.

[Mike Albrecht]

And what would it save us? That's the number I'm still flailing about for it must be in the hundreds of billions of dollars. If you follow me around the interwebs, you might assume that I'm a spokesman for buildsubmarines.com well, I'm not, but I do talk about them a lot because they're dealing with an issue that my foundation has been focused on for 16 years. Closing the skills gap. The short version is this. The people who build America's nuclear powered submarines are trying to hire tens of thousands of tradespeople. I'm talking about 15,000 individual companies, all of whom are currently tasked with building and delivering three nuclear powered submarines every year. There's no greater challenge in the US Military than maintaining this cadence because there's no weapon in our arsenal more important to our national security. The only problem, skilled labor. To meet their goals, the Navy needs to hire 140,000 tradespeople in the next decade. So here's the pitch. Careers in the maritime industrial base are incredibly stable, very rewarding and purpose driven. That means endless opportunities for strong pay and career advancement. @buildsubmarines.com the site does a great job of presenting the monumental mission at hand and spelling out the opportunities. That's buildsubmarines.com this is where all the hiring is happening, and you really do need to see it just to get a sense of how much opportunity is out there. Buildsubmarines.com come on and build a submarine. Why don't you build a submarine?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

@Buildsubmarines.Com Our industry is a 3 to $400 billion industry. We import about 25% of our lumber right now, a lot of it from Canada. So we're talking hundreds of billions we could make for American jobs, build new sawmills. So I'm optimistic, Mike, that the change is coming. And some of it is driven by the catastrophes we've seen. And the Palisades fired, although not burning in a forest, really energized Congress. Congressman Westerman out of Arkansas has put together a bill called the Fix Our Forest act, which is a good title because it's broken.

[Mike Albrecht]

Let's fix it.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. And he tried to get it passed in Congress last year and nobody on the Democratic side. Sorry, folks, I'm not trying to make this partisan, but that's just the fact nobody on the Democratic side voted for it. He reintroduced it about a month ago. After the Palisades fire, 64 Democrats instantly jumped on it past Congress. Instantly. Nancy Pelosi voted for it, which, because they've seen the horror of catastrophic fires up Close.

[Mike Albrecht]

I do love to say I told you so from time to time, especially to the listeners of this podcast, but I'm. I've often said that in conversations like this, things simply have to go splat.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Unfortunately. Yeah, a splat is never pretty. Sometimes it's downright catastrophic. Was the Palisades a splat? Was Altadena a splat? Is that the kind of. I mean, literally, people need to be slapped upside the head.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

To see it.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

What was so frustrating to foresters and loggers is we've been slapped up in Northern California 10 times in the last 15 years. The Dixie Fire. A million acres. And that was old growth, too. Yeah. There was a lot of nice forest up there prior to that. The one that really got attention for a while was called the Paradise Fire, the campfire, that fire. This was horrible. And I don't want to minimize this at all. It's horrible down here. But that fire, folks, burned 18,000 homes. It killed 35 people and burned 150,000 acres. This was just six or seven years ago. Yeah, that was up north fire. Yeah, Malibu. Yeah, that's exactly right. So this one got the headlines, and I think, okay, wow, the Fix Our Force act suddenly got through Congress just like that. Who was it? Rahm Emanuel said, don't let any crisis go to waste. And I guess, here we go.

[Mike Albrecht]

Yeah, well, look, I mean, it's just another version of people are looking around and waiting for the splat. You know, sometimes maybe it's eight, nine dollars a gallon. We can always find, you know, a corollary for all of this, but, man, it's a steep price to pay. Do you think the Dixie Fire was preventable? Would it have been preventable had the forest been better managed?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

So these horrific fires share three things. High wind, drought, and low humidity. You can look at every big fire we've ever had. They share those three things. If we were to thin out trees on our landscape, the chances of them moving from a ground fire to a crown fire are definitely reduced.

[Mike Albrecht]

Explain so people understand, and I will.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Let me just say before I explain, that when you have 100 mile an hour wind or surface, there's nothing you can do. So there's no sense in blaming anybody or forest management. But under normal conditions, kind of normal wind conditions, you can hold fires down. Okay, so how do you do that? If you thin out our forests, what you're really looking at is, okay, we've got this very thick, overgrown forest, and we have ground fuel, we have intermediate fuels that go up to the Crown. So what we do is we thin out the ground fuel in an intermediate fuel. We call it the fuel ladder. It's like each one's a rung on a ladder climbing up. If we can take out that first couple rungs, a lot of times fire will then just stay on the ground. It won't carry to the crowns of the trees and destroy the forest. So that's our goal when we're logging, is to try to thin the forest out, break that fuel ladder down. Fuel ladder so folks are known la d d e r and then have fires stay on the ground often. Then we can follow a thinning project with prescribed fire and actually burn some of the fuel out in a prescriptive manner under good conditions and really make the fire, the forest fire, safe. So that's what we're about. And in the meantime, doing all that thinning makes products we need. We can make wood energy out of it, biomass. We're making electrical energy, Mike, in our hometown out of wood chips. We can power our whole town onto this power plant. We've got burning wood chips to make electricity.

[Mike Albrecht]

How do you have video of that? Well, I would love to see Chuck look for some of that video.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

It's called ultra power. To find that if you can. It's. It's wood fired power plant.

[Mike Albrecht]

Vicki's like, oh God, yeah, don't make him do this. No, I'm super interested in this because I've done shows around biochar and I'm just continually beset by these examples of that. I don't even know if I can call it recycling. You're using your own product to basically power your own product to make more of the product that you need to power the product that you want.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

It's been around for several decades. It's an exciting business we're very much pushing. American Loggers Council pushes biomass energy but it's simple, Mike, because power plants share this common thing. They got to heat water to steam with something and then the steam runs a turbine generator set, that's what spins and make things happen. You can use coal, you can use electrical. You can use electrical, but natural gas, nuclear. In this case, we just use wood to heat the water to steam to power the plant. So it shares a commonality with those plants. But we're using wood that has no other real market. These are the small trees that don't make lumber. So it's a tremendous natural resource that instead of burning it up in a wildfire, if we thin it out ahead of time, we can make A product.

[Mike Albrecht]

And make the forest safer, Store it, make the product.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

Yeah. Incredible. Okay, so do people understand that is this biochar a thing that the average person.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

No, the biochar is making. And that's another good thing. You can make biochar, which is an additive to agricultural ground, which. Which actually is. You're making a charcoal product that you can put into the ground. It'll help it retain moisture. But that's kind of a minor industry right now, a growing industry. But mainly we make lumber and we make different types of pulp and paper products and we make biomass products to make energy. And biomass is becoming something more important for even liquid fuels. They're starting to look at ways to power aircraft. I'm not sure I'd get into. I'm not going to be the first one in an aircraft being powered by wood burning. Yeah, by actually a fuel that can. Chemicals that come out of the wood, mainly methane. Point being, wood is a tremendous resource that we're finding so many more uses for. But basically we need it for lumber. This is what my prop is right here.

[Mike Albrecht]

This.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Okay, I'm going to bring this in.

[Mike Albrecht]

Yeah, bring in the prop.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Here's the prop. So how much lumber do we use every year? This is a board foot. We use about 60 billion of these every year in America to build homes.

[Mike Albrecht]

Why do they call it a board foot? It looks longer than a foot.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, I know. Well, this one's actually 2ft long and 6 inches wide, but it's 144 square inches if it's 12 by 12 or however you want to configure it. So actually this is a board foot, even though it's two feet long. To give folks an example, how much is 60 billion of these? If you start stacking these end to end to the moon, which is 240,000 miles away, if I remember right. I think that's right. 60 billion of these go back and forth the moon about 40 times. If you can get. Wrap your head around that. That's how much lumber we use in America every year, most of which is imported. Well, actually, we do make most of it domestically, but we import about 25% of what we need. And that's ridiculous. We don't need to import anything. We should be making our own. This one shares an interesting sticker on it says made in New Zealand. I got this at Lowe's in Sonora. This board came from New Zealand. I cannot explain to you how this board can be cut and milled and shipped to America cheaper than we can do it ourselves. Don't ask me that question because it's maddening and I don't know the answer to it. But those are the kind of things we gotta look at and go, why is that happening? Why are we not doing this ourselves?

[Mike Albrecht]

Being as fair as you can. Okay, what would the head of the Sierra Club say if here she were sitting here and the accusation was, look, you're affirmatively keeping us from going into forests to clean them out. You're affirmatively saying no to all of the things that have been demonstrably shown to improve the environment, which assumably purportedly is your stated goal anyway. Where's the disconnect?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, if the head of the Share Club was sitting here, they'd be sitting here in this wooden chair with this wooden table in front of them, talking into this microphone powered by electricity that's probably very possibly powered by biomass energy, by wood. You would expose the hypocrisy of the Sierra Club, which their take on this whole thing is we should not be harvesting anything in our national forests, period. And so I would think that would be an interesting guest to have on some time. But I can't speak for them other than their policies are against what we do.

[Mike Albrecht]

I get the policy. I just don't get the argument. Yeah, I'm missing the part where they're saying the best thing for the forest is to leave it alone. Are there any facts to support that that you're aware of?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

No. In fact, the opposite is. The reality is leaving the forest alone is bad for that, for that whole environment. We've left our forests alone and our national forest now for decades, and they're burning and rotting. We've shut things down. I mean, the parallels between how much we've reduced our timber harvest through forest management, good logging, and how much is now burning up. It's an inverse. We've shut it down to use it. And now the rotting and burning has climbed dramatically, and it's as clear as the nose on a person's face. And honestly, Mike, I put environmental groups into three categories. The first category would be environmentalists that really care about things, but they're willing to talk to you and think about it. And when they see a tour, they go, you know what? Maybe we're wrong about this. The second group are kind of like, I just. I call them cave people. Citizens against virtually everything. That's kind of where they are. They're just. That's how they are. And then the third group.

[Mike Albrecht]

I'm opposed.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, I'm just opposed. To. Yeah. And then the third group are really the deep extreme. And it's an industry. It's an environmental industry. I'm going to ramble on here too much maybe, but I got it how big it is now, Mike. So environmental groups have to register in America to be a 501c3 to get their nonprofit status. There are 30,471 environmental groups registered in the United States of America. They have 138,000 not members, employees. They have an annual income of over 28 billion dollars. They have a war chest of about 80 billion. I shouldn't say a war chest. I'll say a balance sheet. Because we're not at war with a lot of these people. We can work with some of them, but we're up against.

[Mike Albrecht]

They're at war with.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, they're an extreme group. Why? Some of them want to stop things. I really think they want to see. They want to see a lot of the world depopulated. But I'm not going to get into.

[Mike Albrecht]

That kind of Malthusian. Right.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

I mean, a lot of people. I mean, even with all the headlines around population collapse, I mean, it really looks to be a very serious thing. But you still hear guys from some big eggheads all the way to Bill Maher who are just saying, look, the. The resources aren't here to support the people we have, and here we are. I'm still trying to get my head around the earlier claim that a third of our country is forest.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

And I'm reminded of like the blind guy in the elephant. Right. He doesn't know what he's touching, and he just assumes that the whole of the thing is whether it's the tail or the trunk or the tusk. Right. And I think, you know, I flew across the country yesterday, had a window seat. I didn't see any forest. Flew across the whole country. What I saw was vast wasteland.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right. Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

You know, and I get it. That's, you know, that's where the flight paths are. But most people who stay in their lane and the flight path, they don't see the forest. And if we can't see it, if we can't touch it, then it just becomes unreal to us. It's just worth belaboring a third of the country because Florida forest, it's incredible.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right. And it's managed by really good people that we call loggers, and that's what we're about. And, you know, one of the things I think, Mike, that folks need to know is loggers are Trained, they're certified, they're licensed. They have to take tests. To even become a logger in California, you have to have 3,000 hours of experience before you can even get a licensed timber operator's certificate. So, you know, one guy, I had an interesting talk one time. Loggers are just those knuckle draggers that walk around and they, you know, like cavemen. That image is gone, I think, or it should be gone. We are professional people, really proud of what we do.

[Mike Albrecht]

It's gone in the church that you attend. It's gone into the choir you preach to.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

But I tell you, man, this is a great transition because we could talk about the macro for hours, but it's the micro, it's the individual loggers that I really want to pick your brain on, because I do think those guys are still subject to the same sorts of stereotypes that have been around since Paul Bunyan. I think farmers are still subject to, you know, Billy Bob. And the. The overall is clear in the south, 40, you know, hayseeds.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

Mechanics are still relegated to knuckle dragon, grease monkeys and so forth. These. These are very powerful images. In fact, I remember the future farmers of America telling me right before I addressed 30,000 of their members back in 2008 that we're now officially referred to as the FFA because the word farmer itself had become an impediment to their ability to recruit. So, yeah, I'm always fascinated by these images and by these stereotypes and the impact they have not just on your industry, but on our country. Here's something we can all agree on. If you owe back taxes or have unfiled tax returns, you do not want to fight the IRS alone. And you do not want to wait for the IRS to send you a letter. Because once that letter arrives, my friends, and trust me, it will arrive, you'll be playing defense. And with the irs, that's never a good idea. What you want to do is contact Tax Network USA right now. Tax Network USA has built strong and trusted relationships with the irs, and they use that relationship every day to negotiate the best possible outcome for thousands of hardworking Americans. Tax Network USA has a preferred direct line to the irs, meaning they know exactly who to talk to and who to avoid to get your case moving quickly and in your favor. This is all they do. And their team of tax attorneys and negotiators has resolved over a billion dollars in tax debt. That's a billion with a B. Doesn't matter if you owe 10 grand or 10 million. They're ready to fight for you, call Tax Network USA Today for a free consultation. Don't wait for that letter and don't fight them alone. Call 1-800-958-1000 or visit tnusa.com roe that's tnusa.com roe yeah, it's to kind of further your example.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

So even up till, I don't know, actually, most of my career, we're loggers. We're proud of that word. It has a connotation that folks, I don't know where it comes from, maybe all our history, but for a while they've tried to change what we do. Let's call it timber harvesting. Let's call it forest thinning. Let's call it vegetation management.

[Mike Albrecht]

Let's call it post traumatic stress disorder. Not shell shock.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Forest health workers. No, we're loggers. And that's what the American Loggers Council is all about, is trying to educate folks on what we do, why we do it, and we're making tremendous progress. In fact, what's coming, Mike, is wood is now being viewed by the world as the premier building product. You may have heard of mass timber or cross laminated timber. We're seeing around the world skyscrapers being built out of wood. And Whoa. Yeah. Where 30, 40 Denver, Colorado to Denmark, all over the world. That it's something worth maybe doing a show on sometime. It's called mass timber or cross laminated timber.

[Mike Albrecht]

God help me, Chuck, but can we find a wooden skyscraper?

[Vicki Albrecht]

Probably not. Probably not.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

But there's some beautiful pornhub, by the way. There's some beautiful examples of wooden structures being built all over the world. So one of the leading architects in the world was saying, and I'll get this sort of right, but he said something to the effect of the 17th century was the century of rock. The 18th century was the century of steel. The 19th century was a century of brick. The 20th century was a century of concrete. The 21st century is a century of wood.

[Mike Albrecht]

We're going to go back.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

We're headed in the right direction.

[Mike Albrecht]

Is that.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, there you go. That's wood. Even though that's been painted, it looks like that's a good job, Chuck. That looks good, Chuck.

[Mike Albrecht]

We're going to keep you around for another week, Matt. I feel so good, Vicki. You got to be proud to be sitting next to a guy that's so close to being a producer. That's amazing.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

This is what's going to bring us around is when the world starts to see how important wooden structures and how beautiful they are and how they can replace other types of building materials. And hey folks, wood is a renewable resource. All this other stuff we dig up, and I'm not against any of them, the cement and all. I hope, don't get me wrong, I.

[Vicki Albrecht]

Mean it literally grows on trees, am I right?

[Mike Albrecht]

Easy Sparky, please, can you do something? Well, can I just ask the screamingly obvious question about the risk a wooden structure might pose, especially in its high risingness. I mean, does the cross lamination, is that some sort of fire retardant?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

So there's a couple things, will they fall over, you know, in an earthquake? So to build this stuff you gotta pass all these tests. So wood, wooden structures, high rise, when you, they put them on shaker platforms and shake them and they hold together better than concrete, brick, steel, they kind of compete with steel fire wise. They're absolutely, they're not fireproof by any means, but it's like holding a match up against a log. It won't start on fire. And so these wooden beams are just solid superstructures that, you know, if a fire got going in somebody's bedroom and that got going, maybe it would. But no, they've passed all the fire tests and they're extremely safe from a structural integrity and from fire.

[Mike Albrecht]

As safe as brick?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, safer than brick when it comes to earthquake. I'll give it to you, brick won't burn, but I'm going to google up sometime as a cross laminated timber skyscraper burned yet. I haven't heard of one as a.

[Mike Albrecht]

Cross laminated or mass timber. Yeah, mass timbered skyscraper burned yet. Yeah, I mean, look again. That's just one of those things that creates enough cognitive dissonance in the average person's brain pan that they, all they can do is stare at you like a cow looking at a new gate. You know, it's like. So you're telling me the wooden. I live up in San Francisco, God help me. And you know, that was a wooden town once upon a time. And after that earthquake that thing went up like flash paper and that seared into my sort of, you know, imaginary reptilian repna God. You know, it wouldn't have been that bad if everything had been brick.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

You know, these beams are often 2ft by 2ft. I mean they're just huge. They're the strength of steel and they. I guess I'm not prepared to convince you that.

[Mike Albrecht]

No, I'm just trying to be.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Look, yeah, yeah, I know what people would think.

[Mike Albrecht]

You and I are in such violent agreement, it would be boring. I just sit here and Just nod my head and go. Yeah, but I mean, look, first of all, you're telling me this country is a third forest.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Secondly, you're telling me that the future of building materials is wood.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yep.

[Mike Albrecht]

Okay.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yep.

[Mike Albrecht]

I can't wait to hear number three.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Well, and the number three is still is. The problem is we're the leading importer of wood in the world. That's the one that doesn't resonate in there. And that's where. That's what the American Loggers Council is working hard on. So you're back to. Yeah, loggers. How are we viewed by people?

[Mike Albrecht]

I just, I'm sorry, I just got up in real quick. Yeah, we're the leading importer.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

Of wood. But we basically use 75% as a country. So even though we're only importing 25% of all the wood we use, we are the overall, in the aggregate, the leading importer of wood.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

California on the other hand, is importing 80% of the.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Of its timber products.

[Mike Albrecht]

Of its timber products.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

And California, by way of comparison, state by state, who has more wood than California?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Maybe Alaska.

[Mike Albrecht]

Okay.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, maybe Alaska.

[Mike Albrecht]

Well, they don't really count though.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Well, they.

[Mike Albrecht]

What's going on in Alaska?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, yeah. Russia wants that back, I'm sure.

[Vicki Albrecht]

So on chat GPT, it says here that as of February 2025, there have been no reports of cross laminated timber CLT skyscrapers burning. In fact, CLT has been extensively tested and is recognized for its fire resistant properties. When exposed to fire, CLT forms a protective charred layer that insulates the inner wood, allowing the structure to maintain its integrity for extended periods. This charring process enables CLT buildings to withstand fire effectively, often outperforming traditional materials like steel in certain fire scenarios.

[Mike Albrecht]

Okay, no, that's interesting. And the charring is interesting.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, yeah, that is interesting. So that. Yeah, there you go. It forms a protective layer that. Oh, now it won't burn.

[Mike Albrecht]

So you use fire.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

To char the wood so it won't burn.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, that's what I meant to say. Chuck, all that stuff.

[Mike Albrecht]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

I'll tell you what's unfortunate. Clt also the airport designation for Charlotte. Which leads me to the next question. Wooden planes, are they coming?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

That's how we started. Right. Was it Back to the future?

[Mike Albrecht]

Was it the spruce goose, basically a wooden plane?

[Vicki Albrecht]

It did not do well.

[Mike Albrecht]

No.

[Vicki Albrecht]

Yeah, it was a wooden plane, but didn't spruce very well Any or goose.

[Mike Albrecht]

When you force rhymes like that into technology, the spruce goose you're attempting fate.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Let me speak real quick, Chuck, to another, excuse me, Mike. To another problem that we have with these forest fires. And that's the smoke which you saw from the top of the building looking across huge, huge volumes of smoke. So there's smoke and there's the watershed effects. And I want to hit them both real quick. How bad is this smoke problem? When we're breathing, it's horrible drifting smoke, they call it. Yeah. So a UCLA study was just, just came out and it looked at the fires In California, the 2020 fires, which was a bad year. Here was their conclusion. I'll read one sentence. Wildfire emissions in 2020 essentially negated 18 years of reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. In fact, all our electric cars, all this stuff we've been doing to ourselves, and not in a bad way, but you know, we're trying to improve that one wildfire season negated it offset 18 years of all of that. So smoke is worse than just a noxious. We don't like breathing it. This thing really wipes out our greenhouse gas advances that we make. So really something for folks to be aware of that another reason burning up our forest is really, really bad watershed. Our forests supply about 75% of the water in California. Comes when I say supply, it sheds the water. It comes out of the mountains. 75% of California's water. And we're often short on water. If we were to thin our forests and take out what. It's a good example. If you look at a bunch of a drinking cup with straws in it, each one of those trees is like a straw taking water out of the ground. It's called evapotranspiration. An average sized pine tree, Mike, takes about 200 gallons, not per week, per day out of the ground. 200 gallons a day. So that much water. And so when you've got millions of trees, more than you need, we're losing.

[Mike Albrecht]

Millions of millions of gallons a day.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

A day? Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Just being like a straw sucked right.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Out of the ground. So if we could thin some of those trees out, make them into products, reduce the fire danger, we also will improve our water supply and get rid of this smoke problem. I mean, it's such a win, win, win. So yeah, if you have the Sierra Club guys sitting here and go, how? Why aren't we doing this? I don't know the answer to that. But we ask politicians why we're not doing this, and we're making some good traction. Now we go back to Washington D.C. every year, the American loggers council. We used to meet with staffers, which we love, meeting with the staff. Now we meet with the speaker of the House, we meet with the speaker of the Senate, the head of the Senate. We meet with the head people. They're like, hey, we want to hear from you guys. What do we need to do different fix. Our forest act is coming. It's a new day coming, Mike. And I'm optimistic about the future, even though it's been a tough go.

[Mike Albrecht]

Well, we've been watching a lot of splats happen here and there. Before I really ask you about the daily life of a logger and ask you to make a case for a man or woman who might want to enter that industry. And before we talk about some of the recruiting challenges therein, I'm still stuck a little bit on the anthropomorphism that you alluded to earlier. You know, when half of the kids in all of those surveys indicate that they believe the tree felt pain Right when it was being cut.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

You know, I don't know that you outgrow that. I think from what I've seen, that's a belief structure that metastasizes like most beliefs do, and it gets, you know, firmly held. And you see it in, you know, Gaia and Mother Earth.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

And so many examples.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Wizard of Oz.

[Mike Albrecht]

Yeah. And so suddenly, I mean, I'll get. I'll catch all sorts of hell for saying it, but if somehow the species doesn't see itself at the very top of the food chain and as the proximate cause of all the environmental trouble in the world, then that's when people start to push. They're like, no, no, it is up to us. We are in charge. As if. As if we were in charge of Pangea or Tambora or Krakatoa or the last earthquake or the next earthquake.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

I just marvel when I think about how quickly the Earth will revert to whatever just fine means for the Earth, it'll shrug and will be gone.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Well, you know, when you talk about we're in charge, we can only be in charge of what we can really be in charge of. Earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, Krakatoa. Those are acts of God. We can start a forest fire and we can put out a forest fire. That is what's different about fires. And we can be in charge of that dynamic when a fire starts in 100 mile an hour. Wind. No, I'm not talking about that. But we can do a lot as a society to prevent forest fires like Smokey the Bear. Said, and that's where we need to go. And we need to do it in spades. We need to get serious about it. And the crisis that we've seen is driving it. And it's fine. Yeah, maybe we've been slapped finally the time that we're going to get it.

[Mike Albrecht]

Maybe.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

But you know, back to kids and teaching and stuff. And how do they get this idea? Vicki can tell this story better than me, but we, we often have the teachers come and we'll teach Forest Institute for Teachers and that will teach the teachers. And one time we had that and this lady came up to Vicki later and she's in tears almost. And Vicki goes, what's the matter? She says, I've been teaching these kids wrong my whole life about everything you do and about trees. And so she said, man, I'm going to start teaching the truth. Okay, well, we need to do a lot more.

[Mike Albrecht]

That's a peripetia, that's a peripatetic moment in the narrative when. When the protagonist realizes everything he or she thought she knew is wrong. Yeah, yeah, that's a very, very hard thing to get your head around. But would you give Vicki your mic for a sec? Because I want to hear from her in a moment after I make this next salient and unforgettable point. It's really just repeating what you said. We have to focus on the things we can do, but we also have to be very realistic about the things we can't control. And when you call Krakatoa an act of God, that's a tough sell today. In the same way you don't want to make this political, I don't want to make it religious. But what would have happened back when Mary Shelley was writing Frankenstein? You know, that was that famous summer, was it Krakatoa or was it Tambora? I don't remember which one. It was Tambora. Right. So giant volcano, huge cloud. Talk about the impact of smoke. Goes around the world. Basically blocks out the sun, wound up changing migratory patterns for humans in this country. Indiana wouldn't be where it is but for the changing patterns of migration as a result of this volcano. It plunged the world into this preternatural gloom and darkness. It screwed up the farming cycles, the seasons. Poor Mary Shelley's right. In Frankenstein, locked up in Switzerland in some crazy hotel. My question is, what would we do today in the wake of that? Would the next 30,000 plus environmental agency to emerge be the agency committed to somehow putting an end to volcanoes?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

That is so great. You mentioned that, because I think of that same thing, only I think of it in terms of the dust bowl. What would we do today if that occurred? And I remember reading interesting in religion for a minute. So I remember reading about it and some pastors saw this first black. They thought it was the apocalypse, they thought it was the end of the world. That went on for four or five years. People didn't sweep things off, they shoveled their houses out. What would happen if that happened today? Who would we blame? How would we view something like that? Same example, we would look for a cause. We'd look for a cause because we.

[Mike Albrecht]

Would fundamentally believe that because we're at the absolute top of the food chain, it must be within our control. So we either caused it or it's incumbent upon us to prevent it. Right, right. So that.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

But you can't prevent Krakatoa and you can't produce. But forest management, you can prevent a lot of things and you can't cure all the ails, you can't stop every fire, but you can certainly make things safer. People can do things with forest management around fire that you can't do on any of these other things. We're talking about earthquakes or those are going to happen. And that's what makes forest management, firefighting and all that an interregulated, very important thing for people to get. And by thinning and preventing, we're making products for goodness sakes. You know, it's like, how simple can this possibly get?

[Mike Albrecht]

Back in 1962, about the same time I was brought screaming into the world, a Medal of Honor recipient confessed to a few Marines about the difficulty he was having in paying for his kid to get a decent education. Those Marines passed a hat, took up a collection and raised enough money for a single scholarship. Today the Marine Corps Scholarship foundation provides more than $10 million in scholarships to nearly 3,000 children of Marines every year. And if you know Marines, you know that's not enough. They won't rest until the job is done. And right now there are more than 20,000 eligible children of Marines nationwide who could benefit from from this scholarship if only they knew about it. Hence this commercial interruption. If you or someone you know is the son or daughter of a Marine and trying to figure out how to pay for a worthwhile education, please help me spread the word about the Marine Corps Scholarship Foundation. Doesn't matter what you want to study, a career in the trades, a liberal arts education, a four year degree, a two year degree, trade school or the Ivy League, God help you if you're the son or daughter of a Marine. The Marine Corps Scholarship foundation has already passed the hat on your behalf. They want to help pay for your education. Let them check your eligibility and apply [e-mail] apply. That's mcsf.org apply. Can I get an hoorah? It's complicated because it's neither fish nor foul. Right. It's not Krakatoa. But because it's going to happen to your point when the winds are blowing and the humidity's low and there's drought.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

There's not much you can do.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

But during all these other times, there are things you can do so you can mitigate it.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

You can't mitigate a volcano. You can't mitigate an earthquake.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

That's why the fire is so vexing. Because it feels like we ought to be able to do more to stop it.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

And surely we can. We can, but we can't necessarily eliminate them.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

And so we have to. I don't know. Well, it's like there's a humility in this, right?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. Use the elephant thing a little while ago. So, you know, it's like eating an elephant. You got to get started. And we are, well started at it. We are doing great things.

[Mike Albrecht]

Hey, man, I don't want to make any trouble for you, but you start talking about eating elephants, you have any idea the mail you're going to get? I'm sure that's on the naughty list somewhere.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. We okay? Yeah. We're not going to eat any. PETA is going to get me.

[Mike Albrecht]

Yeah, dude, they got a file on me. They thick as a brick. We'll come back to you in a second. But your beautiful wife, the lady logger of the year. Yeah, say something smart, Vicki, about education. And what's a nice girl like you doing out there with a bunch of feller bunchers.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Tell everybody the first thing you said about logging when you met me.

[Unknown]

Oh, well, Mike loves this story. Because when I first met him, one of the things I said was that I really, really did not like logging trucks.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

No, she said hated.

[Mike Albrecht]

That's a form of intense dislike. Sure.

[Unknown]

And the reason behind that was because I was a single mom at the time and would drive to town on a little two lane road and logging trucks would pass me. I'd be going 55 and they would pass me on these windy roads. And the ones that were doing it, it was pretty unsafe. They'd throw up gravel and break my windshield and I didn't have the money to pay for it.

[Mike Albrecht]

And so people know we're talking about these impossibly long flatbeds with these giant trees, a dozen of them chained. You do look at that and go, boy, I don't want to be behind it when that chain snaps.

[Unknown]

Well, most logging trucks drive really well and have great drivers. I just happened to get behind a couple of wild ones. So that's where my impression came from, that I didn't like logging trucks.

[Mike Albrecht]

And then you learned he was a logger. What, you guys are dating at this point or about to date or what?

[Unknown]

Well, we actually. We met at Thanksgiving, and he proposed January 4th, so we didn't have weeks, however many weeks.

[Mike Albrecht]

That's borderline.

[Unknown]

So logging didn't really play into it, except that I didn't really want to meet someone from out of state. I was living in Oregon at the time, although I'm a native Californian. And so Mike's sister asked if I wanted to meet him, and I said, well, if he's from California. No, not really. And she lied. Well, just because I wasn't going to move. And she lied, and she said, well, actually, you know, he has a logging company, and I think he's planning on moving his company to Oregon. And there was zero truth in that.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

That's the big lie. Yeah, that's what got us together.

[Unknown]

But there was purpose behind that because we've been married now for 26 years.

[Mike Albrecht]

Oh, vlogging.

[Unknown]

A love story.

[Mike Albrecht]

So you meet on Thanksgiving, and December goes by, and then you're halfway into January, and you. And you propose over the phone from California. Over the phone. Because nothing says romance like. Yeah, exactly, honey, trust me. I'm down on one knee, and I'm holding this amazing, amazing ring for you.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Well, here's how the conversation went. So I, I. So we're talking. I said, vicki, will you marry me? And there's this long pause. And so I go, well, do you need more time to think about it? And she goes, no. And I go, well, no, you won't marry me, or no, you don't need more time to think about it?

[Mike Albrecht]

And she said.

[Unknown]

And I said, said. And I laughed. And I said, no, I don't need more time to think about it, and yes, I'll marry.

[Mike Albrecht]

What in the world did he do in six weeks? I mean, was this just good timing all around, or what kind of game does this logger have? People want to know.

[Unknown]

You know, I was not looking to get married. I was. I had two young boys, and truly, God brought us together. I could tell a 15 minute story, which I won't. That just every single step of the way, that's what it was.

[Mike Albrecht]

So it just felt like something bigger than you.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Well, what I realized probably about 10 years later is the reason that Mike's sister intuitively knew that we should be together is because we are so much alike. And I think that we tuned into that pretty instantly.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. So from I hate logging trucks to Lady Logger of the Year. I knew, see, I knew what was going on. What did she do to get Lady.

[Mike Albrecht]

Logger of the Year? How does this happen? And has there ever been a lady logger?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

No, she's the first one. And the president of our association said we're going to start doing this and Vicki's going to be the one. And actually what she does, she works behind the scenes. She does all sorts of work for our associations. That's how she got to be Lady Logger of the Year. We put on the national convention in Sonora, California last October and she pretty well put that whole thing together. She believes in what we do and she believes in the people, loves the logging community. And all the things you've written about, all the different jobs and all that. I don't know if you've ever written about loggers but they would be right in your wheelhouse. You would love us too. We're just great, honest, hard working people. And that's Vicki saw that and she's part of it. But she's always behind the scenes doing things she never had to do A. She never won the axe throw or anything like that. She was just always hard, hard work supporting our industry. And that's how that got her that recognition. And it was well deserved.

[Mike Albrecht]

With his double bladed X and his hobnail boots. He goes where the timber's tal. Hey, Paul. Paul Bunyan. Wow. Okay, so I'll start to land the plane somewhat.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Okay.

[Mike Albrecht]

Around work, you know, what kind of people today, who are you looking for in your industry? What kind of person who really doesn't know much about your industry ought to consider it? And why?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

That's a really good question. Because the industry is rapidly changing right now, Mike, in terms of the equipment we use and the technology that we employ. And kids really are into technology and joysticks and different things. So the reason to get into logging not is to. Because you like joysticks and stuff but. Or electronics. But it's not setting chokers and chainsaws. And it's a job I think that kids can be attracted to because it uses a lot of technology. For sure. But it still takes kids that get up in the morning and want to get to work at 2 or 3 in the morning and work hard and make a good living. And there's a lot of those kids out there. There's a lot of kids that are in college right now. They come out of college with debt and they're like really don't know what to do. So what we're trying to do right now is to get into high schools and show young people that there's an honest good living out there doing logging. And probably in 15 years, Mike, 20 years, that feller buncher you just saw, you'll be able to operate it right here from LA in Sonora. We're working with a company right now that is teleoperating equipment. There's a machine called a skidder that drags the logs after the feller buncher puts it down. He's operated that skidder from a thousand miles away with teleoperating electronics, with cameras on the machine and sensors and gps. So the Tesla type stuff on the highway is coming to the logging industry. That's not the reason to get in it necessarily, but I think it attracts the young folks to go. This is kind of cool.

[Mike Albrecht]

Same thing with farming. The miracle of modern agriculture has been hidden from view from a whole generation. There's so much big science, there's so much incredible tech.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

In all of it.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

But what happened to you? What was it about the industry that got you and how did you start working in it?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Oh, that's. So we're going to go back about 55 years for that. At about 15 years old. A lot of young guys logging that age back then were start firewood cutting. And so we started a firewood business and Mark and Wayne and I started this firewood business together and we cut trees and made firewood and did all sorts of great things. And we weren't driving yet. We were just kind of stacking it up. But as soon as one day we were working and had ropes and stuff and dragging stuff up and we thought, okay, let's figure out how to yard this stuff up a hill. So our pastor was a logger too. He came up, we'll put a block and tackle in the tree rope. Okay. And we started dragging stuff up. So we had a truck pulling stuff up and we were all working together and we'd load and unload firewood and we started a business and it was really great. And the difference in our little business was Mark was blind and was blind from birth. He would be a great person for you to write about in your book. He's the kind of guy that you would write, Mark was a logger. Mike was a logger and he was blind. He could load and unload the truck with firewood. This was back when they were kids. He didn't go into logging as a profession. And we could teach him how to drive the truck, to pull logs and say, hey, Mark, stop and go and back up. And it just was a great way for us to get started because it.

[Mike Albrecht]

Vicki, am I hearing this right? He just told me the blind guy's driving the truck.

[Vicki Albrecht]

Yeah, that's what I heard.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Well, let me tell you what we used to. After as soon as we got our driver's license, what I did with Mark, the blind guy, he had a model A his dad got. So we got in the model. I said, hey, Mark, let's go take that out on the highway. So I said, you get behind the wheel, I'll sit in the passenger side and I'll steer. And off we went out onto the highway because Mark knew how to drive. He knew how to shift and do all that stuff because he practiced around on his ranch. But. And so Mark was a. It taught me that handicapped is only in the eyes of us beholders. Mark wasn't handicapped. He knew what to do. But anyway, that's how I got started in logging. I went from that to actually went to school, got my forestry degree. I'm a registered forester also.

[Mike Albrecht]

Duke, right?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Duke. Yeah. And we got a kick ass basketball team. You know that, that's what we're.

[Mike Albrecht]

And then we went on a wooden floor.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, we had a wooden floor. Yeah. Now I'm president of the American Loggers Council and it's been a great ride all in between.

[Mike Albrecht]

But what's the yss all about?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Oh, that's a reason that we've got in our little community. It's a group of. Consensus group, a collaborative group where we get these environmentalists that I say, want to work with us. We all get together and we say, okay, we had the rim fire, we don't want that anymore. What are we going to do? And so, yeah, we got together and we're going to thin the forest. We're going to get things replanted. We're going to no litigation. We said, nobody show up here to sue it because we're against that. And we salvaged 300 million board feet after the rim fire because we kept any litigants out because we all got along. So it's A local group of folks that get together and make things happen.

[Mike Albrecht]

Do you think that's what's going to.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yes.

[Mike Albrecht]

Is that the way forward?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yes.

[Mike Albrecht]

For everything? Maybe.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yes, absolutely. Things locally are where you can make things happen. If you wait for Washington, if we wait for Sacramento and all their bureaucratic, we're going to wait a long time. But if we can get together locally, we can make things happen. So in Tuolumne county, which is in kind of the center of the Sierras, we're building our seventh wood processing facility in that county. We got two sawmills still. We got two biomass plants, we got a wood shavings plant. We're building things because our community gets it and we get together. I'm going to digress if I can take a little more time of how this can work the other way. And when an environmental, a big extreme group gets in the way. There was a project called Tucuya Ridge down on the Las Padres National Forest, Santa Ana wind country. And they said this little community of about 3,000 called Mount Pinos said, We want to build a fuel break around our community. We want to clear so we don't burn up. We got about 3,800 homes here. We want to be safe.

[Mike Albrecht]

How big is a fuel break, by the way, so people understand how wide.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. And by the way, usually they're shaded. So it's not just a clear cut. You thin it out pretty aggressively. In this case, I think this was a 300 foot fuel break, which is going to work in most things. Not 100 mile an hour wind, you can't. Okay. So the Mount Pinos Community Group got together, says, we want to do this. The Forest Service said, yep, let's do it. The Kern County Fire Department supported them. They put it out for scoping, it's called, so everybody could weigh in on it. Let's move it forward. Gets ready to go in, comes the center for Biological Diversity out of Tucson, Arizona and says, no, no, no, you're not going to do that because you're going to endanger the condor. And it's in a roadless area. Really. Okay, we'll go to court. Two years later, this district court says, yep, you're good to go. No center for Biological Diversity. We're going to take it to the ninth Circuit. They sued again. Took six years to get this fuel break built. Luckily there wasn't a fire. I don't know what would have happened, but would have burned the place down is what would have happened. That's an example of how it doesn't work. When an extreme group that doesn't live in the community comes and says, we don't like that for whatever reason.

[Mike Albrecht]

I'll tell you what it's not good for. The condor.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Is a windmill. Yeah. Have you seen that? Have you seen these? The condors and the kites, big birds just flying.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Straight into them all of the time.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. There's lots of documented bird kills. The spotted owl is probably known more than the condor. After lots of studying, really took a lot of studying, they figured out the scientists what's killing the spotted owl is wildfire killing their nest. And the barred owl, which is a bigger owl that actually kills. The spotted owl eats her eggs. It's not logging. It's the lack of logging that's killing these animals off because our forests are burning up. So these are all the kind of things the American Loggers Council and others try to get up to Congress. We're going in another month. And we bring these facts to people and they go, you know what? We're starting to hear you here. And Westerman heard us, and he's now got the Fix our Forest Act. And I'll tell you listeners, it's through the House. We got to get the Senate to pass it. It's at the Senate doorstep right now.

[Mike Albrecht]

Fix our Forest act, fix our Fish Act. Once a vote, do you know, got.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

To schedule a vote. The Senate, they have a few committees. And so we just need to call our senator. We got two senators here. Say, folks, this is a good thing. Push it through.

[Mike Albrecht]

I know that you've obviously got a clear and present bias, but do you liken this and the importance of this topic to energy independence?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Oh, what a great comparison. Okay, I'll just. We don't want to talk politics. I know, but the Trump. I don't care either. It was the Trump administration that said, look, we can be energy independent. And he got us there in about four years. We started a Keystone pipeline and did things that said made sense. We have more energy in this country than any other country. Same thing with wood products. Yes. We just need the administration to go. This is really important. We can be wood independent. I don't want to be wood independent. I want to export wood, Mike. I want us to export our wood and our technology. I'll tell you, this is an interesting fact. Half the wood in the world is still used for heating and cooking. You know, you've seen it in National Geographic, these ladies that carry wood on their back for five miles because they've denuded Cambodia or Ethiopia. We need to be helping those countries with wood products and technology on how to get things going.

[Mike Albrecht]

They've got to get through their own industrial or. Right. I mean, they're burning dung and wood. They've got to get to coal and oil and then gas, and then maybe we can talk about hydro or solar or wind or fusion or fission.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. But we need to be able to show up to those countries, say, hey, folks, we've got wood for sale. We've got pellets, wood, biomass, whatever. But no, we're importing it because we are shutting our industry down. And that's. We're making a big push on that. And it's working, but it's going to take a while. It's like turning the aircraft carrier. Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Vicki, did he forget anything? Are you sitting there going, gosh, if only you would have mentioned. Blah, blah, blah.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

That's a good question. Because she usually.

[Mike Albrecht]

It's your last chance. I'm about to look into this bag of swag you brought me and unwrap the treats.

[Vicki Albrecht]

You know, I got a question, though.

[Mike Albrecht]

Sorry, but deer.

[Vicki Albrecht]

My question is, you know, I know that you said, like, it all grows on trees, right? This wood grows on trees. The biomass can help us with energy. We can build more with wood. And I've seen cross cutting, like, in Washington State. I've driven past a section where they take out like an acre here, and it's like a checkerboard.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

It's.

[Vicki Albrecht]

How long does it take from the time you clear that piece of a checkerboard till it grows high enough, big enough that you can clear it again?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, that's a great question. It takes a little longer in the west than it does in the South. So in the southern United States, you can have a new crop of trees ready for harvest in about 25 to 30 years. It grows quicker here. It's about 50 years. In the meantime, you can do some intermediate cutting, thinning it out, getting some products as you thin that, and then it's ready to harvest. Saying 50, 50 or 60 years. And it has to be replanted. We don't cut anything and not replant it. That's a law. But it's. Of course we want to because that's our business, that's our livelihood. But so that get the answer?

[Vicki Albrecht]

Yeah, yeah, that answers my question.

[Mike Albrecht]

Well, it's a slightly different analogy than the energy one. It's more like fisheries. You know, you can overfish, and if you don't take care to not do that, if you don't Let Fish and Game do what they do. Well, then you're just shooting your own feet off. Right. So obviously it's.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

You guys are motivated, I would think. Yeah, but same self preservation.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Would you bring me my favorite things in the front? And it's a challenge coin. Right? Right on the very. If you turn it around in the front pouch, it's way in the front. Yeah, you're good. Can I say something while you're working with zippers?

[Mike Albrecht]

I can't stop.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Okay. I. I want to say that we've got some good things going with the Forest Service, too. Even though, you know, Forest Service has been. We've had some problems over the last couple decades. The American Loggers Council just signed a memorandum of understanding with the Forest Service that's promoting our timber industry, new markets and logging.

[Mike Albrecht]

That's a big deal.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

It's a big deal and it's exciting and it's showing, I think, where the future is. People are getting it.

[Mike Albrecht]

Nice. So that's the. Whatever that is.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

That's a lapel pin. And that's your challenge going down there.

[Mike Albrecht]

That's a lapel pin?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

That's how big a lapel you think?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Well, that's what we. We really want you to see what's. We want to be noticed. Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

That's great. American Loggers, great.

[Vicki Albrecht]

While you're looking through that, Vicki's got a question.

[Mike Albrecht]

Now, Vicki.

[Unknown]

Well, actually, just a statement that if we were really wisely managing our forests and getting our timber off of our forests, one thing I think that's important for people to realize is that doesn't cost the treasury, our government money. That will bring in a lot of money to the treasury, as well as making the industry healthier and providing jobs.

[Mike Albrecht]

Well, that's a great point. I was just at cpac. I was just in the belly of the beast in D.C. and I saw Elon on stage with a giant chainsaw. The metaphor is not lost. You know, this is not the time to ask the taxpayers to step up to do a thing, or the feds. Whatever you're on about, it has to be self funding. It has to be self perpetuating, right?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Yeah, feels like it.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Anyway, and I'm so glad you mentioned that because that's a really good point. This can make money as we're doing the work.

[Unknown]

Right, Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

It's the greatest bag of swag I've ever got on a podcast. This is like. I got this playing cards.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Chicken ranch playing cards.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, yeah. You want to explain that well, that's what. We had our convention at the Chicken Ranch Casino in Sonora, sort of California. Yeah. Oh, that's a really good book.

[Mike Albrecht]

If to why would anyone cut a tree down? Right.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Look at that.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

But it answers the question in a very positive way when it's over. Yeah. It starts out like.

[Mike Albrecht]

All right, terrific, too. Chuck, there's one for you, too.

[Vicki Albrecht]

No, I got a box. I got a bag as well.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Well, that's right. You already interviewed him for the podcast. This is great. This stuff all comes in handy. Nuts good.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, These are the best ones there.

[Mike Albrecht]

All right, final thoughts. Why is chopping wood so satisfying? What is it? I've thought a lot about it and read a lot of poetry about it. Got my own thoughts, but I'm just wondering.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah. I think because you see instant results. You see something made quickly, and that's why I think it's satisfying.

[Mike Albrecht]

That's what Einstein said. People love cutting wood because they like to see instant results.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

And Henry Ford said.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Oh, that makes me feel really good.

[Mike Albrecht]

Because I, I. Yeah.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

I didn't even know it. Yeah. I mean, I'm not there, but your.

[Mike Albrecht]

Husband had a brain the size of a redwood. It was amazing.

[Unknown]

Yes, he is incredible.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Anyway. Sorry. Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Ford said, oh, chop your own wood. It'll warm you twice.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go.

[Mike Albrecht]

I'll leave the listener with this. My earliest memories are of block and tackle and feathers and wedges and watching for a while. Watching. And then accompanying my dad and my pop back into the woods behind our. Our little house. They're about 50 acres. We didn't own it. It was the states, but nobody could develop it.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

And our house was heated by wood stoves.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

And watching those two men go back there and pick a tree and then fell it. They played it like it was a game show. Right. It's like here, the thrill they got.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

From watching it fall where they wanted it.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Right.

[Mike Albrecht]

And then the chainsaws and then the cutting and then back to the wood pile and then the splitting and then.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

It was just something primal and practical.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

And.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

And there's some artistry about it. Oh, my God.

[Mike Albrecht]

Such a right way to, you know, go with the grain and how to. It gets in your blood.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

I can see how it would happen. Well, it's in. And so in the American Loggers Council, it's in the blood of about 60,000 of us. And I think the timber industry is going to grow and we're going to have more loggers. We're getting Younger loggers in and we've been through some tough stuff and. But better times ahead, you watch. Let's get together in 10 years and we'll talk about mass timber.

[Mike Albrecht]

All right. I do have one.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Poor Chuck. I know, dude. I'm sorry. We're over.

[Vicki Albrecht]

I'll be all right.

[Mike Albrecht]

Go ahead. Is there a school, an academy, a learning type of situation that people enroll in in order to get into your industry? If so, what and where.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Very good. They're just starting up. So Shasta College in California has logging equipment and they're working with Sierra Pacific Industries. Sierra Pacific's giving them 30,000 acres. They have the equipment, state of the art stuff, Feller bunchers and they're. They said, kids, come on, get into our program. It's a school certified program.

[Mike Albrecht]

Not a four year school.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

No, it's a weeks, a few weeks or say a couple months of training.

[Mike Albrecht]

What's the cost?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

I don't even know if there is a cost, to tell the truth.

[Unknown]

Oh, there's no. There is no cost.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

But it's.

[Unknown]

Hilo is the name of the program.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Heavy. Yeah, heavy equipment, logging operation. It's. Well, it's a junior college. I don't know if there's a college. It's very inexpensive.

[Mike Albrecht]

Well, Google it, guys. Hilo, if this sounds like it's interesting.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Shasta College.

[Mike Albrecht]

Shasta College. And you know, my foundation is all about work ethic scholarships for vocations that don't require a four year degree. This is such an important space and I'll make sure that it's indicated on our. We're currently in the midst of an enrollment period now. So I mean I. I'm happy to do what I can to call some attention to.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Awesome to this.

[Mike Albrecht]

I mean, where's the need right now in terms of manpower and labor? How many loggers could be hired if they showed up ready to work and good to go?

[Chuck Klausmeier]

I don't know the number for sure, but everybody coming out of that school gets placed instantly. Let me put it that way. Jobs are waiting for these folks. It's not just logging. It can be sawmilling. Like at the sawmills. They're looking for people. I know our local sawmills, the guys that hold for pizza signs and say they had for log. We need people. They were holding signs up on the corner like we'll pay $25 an hour. Apply here. It's interesting. There's a lot of need in the timber industry, not only in logging, but all the way through power plants, sawmills. It's a great. We can get into it.

[Mike Albrecht]

Look, it's everywhere.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

It's our submarine base. It's our automotive industry. Every major industry that I know of.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

Is just staring recruiting right in the face and pulling out the stops.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Yeah.

[Mike Albrecht]

I'll tell you this, man. If there's peanuts and ball caps and notepads and books and everything else in the way of, you know, inducements, you're in.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Okay.

[Mike Albrecht]

Thank you so much for making the time, Vicki. Congratulations. You lady Logger of the year. Thank you both for coming by. Good luck.

[Chuck Klausmeier]

Our pleasure. Thank you, Mike. Really, really fun. Yeah, thanks. Thanks.

[Vicki Albrecht]

If you like what you heard and.

[Mike Albrecht]

Even if you don't Won't you please Won't you please Pretty please Pretty please subscribe well, I hate to beg and I hate to plead but please, pretty freaking please please subs oh, please subscribe.