454: Amie Ichikawa—You Can’t Bring a Vagina to a Penis Fight

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe

Episode 454: Amie Ichikawa—You Can’t Bring a Vagina to a Penis Fight
Air Date: October 14, 2025

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Overview

In this deeply candid and provocative episode, Mike Rowe sits down with Amie Ichikawa, founder of the nonprofit Woman II Woman, to discuss her lived experiences in the California women’s prison system and her activism regarding the transfer of biological males into women's prisons. Amie, formerly incarcerated herself, shares her journey from troubled youth to inmate, to advocate and Christian. The discussion weaves through her personal life story, the realities of incarceration, SB 132 (California’s law allowing inmates to self-identify their gender for placement), and the broader crisis of women's rights behind bars. The tone is forthright, unsparing, sometimes darkly funny, and underscored by Amie’s mission: protecting dignity for all women in confinement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why the Title?

• The episode’s provocative title is a quote directly from Amie:
  • “You can’t bring a vagina to a penis fight.” ([00:03]–[04:55])
• Both Mike and producer Chuck agree it stands out for its blunt truth and encapsulates the essence of the episode’s theme.

2. Amie’s Backstory and Path to Prison

• Childhood in Torrance, LA; father was an LA County Sheriff.
• Entered a destructive relationship at 24, led to drug abuse and a violent crime: participated in a botched kidnapping over $20.
• Arrested, interrogated, and sentenced to five years for terrorist threats and use of a firearm ([09:13]–[18:13]).
• Powerful moment:
  • “I said, okay, I beat her up. Can I go to work? Just totally… You have no idea what you’re into.” (Amie, [15:50])

3. Life Inside a California Women’s Prison

• Arrival and intake at Chowchilla—brutally honest portrayal of strip searches, lack of privacy, and dehumanization.
• Describes overcrowded cells (eight women in a cell built for four), contaminated water, prevalence of trauma among inmates, and the surprising presence of younger women serving life sentences. ([20:26]–[27:49])
• Learnt hard life lessons and self-acceptance from long-term inmates:
  • “It took almost five years of people really pounding that kind of stuff... I really needed, like, a crash course in how to not hate myself and how. How the world doesn’t revolve around me.” (Amie, [27:49])

4. The Introduction of Men into Women’s Prisons (SB 132)

• California’s SB 132 enables male inmates to transfer into women’s prisons upon self-identifying as female.
• Amie experienced this first-hand and recounts a notorious case of a male rapist transferred after self-mutilation to identify as female ([34:58]–[40:33]).
• Notes the repercussions:
  • Loss of privacy, increased power imbalance (male inmates get to pick their rooms, jobs, even access certain feminine hygiene and elective medical procedures unavailable to biological women).
  • “They’re able to pick their jobs. They get free douche... full body laser hair removal, facelifts, breast implants, Adam’s apple reduction.” (Amie, [42:23]–[43:53])
• The emotional and safety toll: “People were crying like, how could the governor let this happen to us? Doesn’t he know we’re all rape survivors?” (Amie, [36:20])

5. Activism and Creation of Woman II Woman

• Amie formed Woman II Woman in early 2021 as a peer-based resource for formerly incarcerated women and to fight for women's space in the prison system ([30:07], [64:44]).
• Describes resistance, being told that programs solely for women were “not even legal” and “putting your life in grave danger.”
• Outlines collaboration with organizations like the Independent Women’s Forum and involvement in state and federal advocacy ([57:03]–[60:16]).
• Shares how reintegration is fraught with trauma triggers and systemic challenges: “I only did five years. What's gonna happen to people who've done 25?” (Amie, [65:09])

6. Federal Prison Issues and Broader Context

• Conditions in federal prison are worse: extreme violence, neglect, medical abuse. ([60:38])
• Noted judiciary issues: magistrate Sarah Netburn’s push to transfer a sex offender into a women’s medical prison, despite opposition from the Bureau of Prisons.
• Advocacy led to Netburn’s nomination being denied.

7. Political Landscape & Call to Action

• SB 132 passed with overwhelming Democratic support, despite warnings from corrections professionals.
• Women in prison are effectively “the losers in every political game,” as their safety and dignity get sidelined.
• Amie’s mission: “No men in women’s prisons. Who is going to possibly want to fight this?” ([69:32])
• The state is now fielding hundreds of transfer requests; over a third of those transferred are registered sex offenders.
• Activists urge public engagement:
  • “Talk to your elected officials…They can’t care about what they don’t know about either.” (Amie, [77:56])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You can’t bring a vagina to a penis fight. You’re going to lose every single time.”
  – Amie Ichikawa ([49:15])

• “I thought Amy would be worth listening to. I almost said worth talking to, but honestly, she doesn’t need to be talked to. She needs to be listened to.”
  – Mike Rowe ([01:42])

• “Prison is ground zero for like, human experimentation, socioeconomic experimenting, because…if you want to implement things nationwide, you’re going to start in the prison because it’s an easy place to conduct these kind of things under the radar.”
  – Amie Ichikawa ([31:12])

• Describing the shock among women when men were introduced:

  • “This person brought male prison politics with them…It sent shock waves through the whole population.” ([36:20])
  • “There was this somber, overwhelming feeling of just defeat. People were crying: how could the governor let this happen to us?” ([36:33])

• On NGO and nonprofit industry complicity:

  • “I had no idea how much of a business nonprofit is.” ([30:10])
  • “These teachers are trying to make me think that a cult is only called a cult because it’s outside of Judeo-Christian normatives…I have to worry about this, too.” ([49:15])

• On policy and personal action:

  • “Talk to your assembly person. It’s easy. They’re very accessible. Some intern will take your call...California can definitely afford to ensure that everybody has access to respect, agency, and dignity.” ([77:56], [78:38])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening and episode theme discussion: [00:03]–[04:55]
• Amie’s story: crime, arrest, and incarceration: [09:13]–[18:13]
• Prison intake experience: [20:26]–[27:49]
• Introduction of men into women’s prisons and SB 132 explained: [29:19]–[46:09]
• Life after prison and founding Woman II Woman: [64:44]–[69:17]
• Federal prison challenges and the Sarah Netburn controversy: [60:44]–[64:44]
• Legislative action and call to listeners: [77:56]–[79:46]

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Final Thoughts & Resources

Amie’s unvarnished testimony brings the complicated realities of the prison system, activist politics, and the vulnerability of women sharply into view. The episode is not an abstract debate—it’s a dispatch from the front lines of policy gone awry, told by someone whose life and mission are shaped by hard-won empathy and experience.

Learn more or get involved:

• Woman II Woman – Amie’s organization for incarcerated and re-entering women. (Roman numeral ‘II’, not Arabic '2').
• Contact your local or state representatives about SB 132 and women's prison issues.

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Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is unfiltered, often gritty, seasoned with dark humor and a clear sense of urgency. Amie’s voice is direct and compassionate, determined to protect both dignity and truth for women who cannot advocate for themselves from behind bars.

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Memorable Sendoff:
“As Harry Bosch would put it, everybody matters or nobody matters.” (Mike, [79:41])

Transcript

[A]

Hello, friends. Mike Rowe here. It's the way I heard it. And as many of you know, the guests on this podcast oftentimes wind up choosing the title just because they've said something pithy and memorable. And this one, Chuck, I don't know. I mean, certainly. Top five, maybe? Top three, maybe the top one, maybe.

[B]

Well, I mean, maybe I'll just tell you this. As soon as I heard it, I wrote it down, and that was it.

[A]

It was.

[B]

You know, we both looked at each other, we kind of went, oh, yeah.

[A]

It'S gonna be tough to top that. I wouldn't be shocked to see this on a T shirt at some point. But for the record, we're calling it, you can't bring a vagina to a penis fight. That's a direct quote from our guest, Amy Ichikawa, who could be introduced in any number of ways. But given the blowback that I've been enjoying for the last week after our Peyton McNabb interview, man, I thought we were kind of past this. I thought we had turned a corner and that most people had just kind of given up on the idea that pushing male and females together in various scenarios was, in fact, bad juju. But it seems that some people are still clinging on pretty tight.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And to be clear, nobody cares if you want to change your sex, if you're an adult, if you want to dress a certain way, if you want to even alter your body or your shape. Nobody cares about that. What we care about is competing in women's sports and, you know, men being in women's prisons, which Amy speaks to. That's what's really important and we should all agree on.

[A]

Yeah, I thought Amy would be worth listening to. I almost said worth talking to, but honestly, she doesn't need to be talked to. She needs to be listened to. And I met her in the state capitol in Texas a few months ago, where I met Peyton McNabb as well. The Women's Forum was there, and they were making the rounds, talking about what's happening in California. And Amy is coming from a place where she believes that women are trying to be erased and that the presence of men in prisons is not only deliberate, but part of a project, an experiment, really. And I think she feels very much like a canary in the coal mine. And the more I listened to her, the more I kind of waffled from going, boy, you know, how much of this is she imagining? How much of this is conspiracy stuff? And then ultimately coming to, you know what? I don't think any of it. Is I don't think she's living her truth. I think she lived the truth, and now I think she's trying to share it. Yeah.

[B]

And she's trying to make a difference in her community. She's really fighting for women, women's rights. And I think this is very similar to the Peyton McNab episode. And I know that a lot of women reacted to the Peyton McNabb episode in a positive way, saying, you know, thank you so much for doing this. You're gonna feel the same way after you listen to Amy Ichikawa.

[A]

It's not just the women, Chuck, like I went through. I got thousands of comments simply because I shared the episode, and most of them were men. And sure, there's some people who disagree reflexively with anything that's, you know, anti trans, but this isn't anti trans. This isn't even political. This is just an appeal to be true to some sense of science and biology and logic and common sense. You know, my question, like, the reason to have Peyton on and I think the reason to double down now with Amy is because we're going to look back and we're going to wonder what kind of spell we were put under. And this isn't going to be a torture for people who were dug in firmly on one side or the other. It's going to be a torture for people who sat quietly and listened to the arguments that there was no difference between H. Sapien with a penis and H. Sapien with a vagina. And how many people just kind of nodded their heads and said, well, okay, I really don't want to get involved. We're going to look back on that and we're going to clutch our pearls anew. And that's what I took from the comments after the last episode. And if I were a betting man, I'd say we're about to see more of the same. But I'm not a betting man. So I'm simply going to introduce you to Amy Ichikawa with these words of wisdom that will no doubt haunt you for days and weeks and months to come. You can't bring a vagina to a penis fight, especially in prison.

[B]

True dat.

[A]

Dumb. This podcast is made possible by James Madison, the man who wrote most of our Constitution, including the First Amendment. You know, the one that gives me the right to interview whoever I want on this podcast and say whatever I want to say without fear of government retribution. That's a right I appreciate a great deal, and I know my friends at PureTalk feel the same. It's been nearly two years since the owner of that company invited me down to Georgia, where his company's headquartered. Come and meet our people, Mike. Try our service. See for yourself what makes us different. Then if you like us, tell your audience why in your own words. That's why I switched. I liked what the company stands for, and I bet you will, too. PureTalk supports our vets and our tradespeople in a meaningful way. Sure, you'll like the crazy fast 5G coverage, and you'll save lots of money with plans that start from just 25 bucks a month. But mostly, I think you'll like being in business with an American wireless company who's not afraid to speak out in support of of our constitution and our most important values. Go to puretalk.com roe and exercise your right to switch to a wireless company who actually stands for something right now. You'll save an additional 50% off your first month at PureTalk.com RO that goes for business owners, too. @PureTalk.com RO Pur Talk Amy Ichikawa is in the house. Do people still say in the house?

[D]

I think so. I don't know. I don't go out very much. I don't go anywhere, so.

[B]

Well, you're in the house. Don't you.

[A]

Amy was always in the house.

[D]

That is correct.

[A]

Some sort of house. Oh, God. There's probably a big house pun in here somewhere. Is it too soon?

[D]

No, not at all.

[A]

Oh, boy. So earlier I had a chat with Peyton McNabb, who I finally met in the capital of Texas, where I met you on that same day. And I was rushing around like crazy, and all I had a chance to do was shake your hand, and you muttered something. I, I, I. Yeah, you muttered and said, oh, dirty jobs and something. And then I had to kind of triangulate to understand what you and Riley Gaines and Peyton McNabb and all those other women had in common. And now I think I know. But since you're sitting here, why don't you just tell me?

[D]

Well, we're all ladies. Yes, you, Honor. And I think it's very important that we all know each other and work together, because it really reflects that this agenda is coming for all of us, from AYSO to death row.

[A]

What's ayso?

[D]

Girls soccer. From, you know, the volleyball court to death row. They're coming for us. There's no sector of womankind that is exempt from the erasure that they're pressing on us. And there's so many other things going on in the world. This is not getting the attention it needs because we're like 50% of the population.

[A]

I think you're more than that, actually.

[D]

51.

[A]

That's what I've heard. They're everywhere.

[D]

Women everywhere, Everywhere. And I mean, it's when I fully understood, after I met the girls, that the same evil that celebrates housing fully intact men who are, you know, registered sex offenders in women's prisons, that's the same evil that thinks it's appropriate for them to have to change their swimsuits or in front of boys or.

[A]

Well, your story is so extraordinary, and I'm going to ask you to tell it again. Forgive me, I'm sure you're probably sick of doing it, but it's important for people to understand where you've come from and what your journey is. Because, really, I didn't know a lot. You could fill a book with what I don't know. But I know Riley, and now I know Peyton, and now I understand what the Independent Women's Forum is doing in and around this issue with women's sports. But to your point, it goes so far beyond that. And your experience with it was in which prison?

[D]

Central California Women's facility in Chowchilla.

[A]

Where's Chowchilla?

[D]

Nowhere. It's in Madera, by Modesto, kind of. It's in the Central Valley. Lovely place, no? It's hot. It's hot, it's hot. I think the day I got off the bus was 115 degrees.

[A]

This would be the classic grayish bus that takes you to prison.

[D]

Yes. With no windows. And the bus door opened after, you know, that three, four hour drive. And the hot wind came in and.

[A]

I was like, oh, you're non cancer.

[D]

I'm in hell. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Where'd you grow up?

[D]

Torrance. You know, LA county, beach city. And I didn't venture very far. I think Chowchilla is the farthest I've really ever lived. I'm an only child. My dad's the retired LA county sheriff. My mom was a church lady. And, you know, I thought I had a normal, happy childhood until I started to rebel and really just sought validation and destructive relationships and got on drugs.

[A]

And you found them.

[D]

I did.

[A]

You found that destructive relationship the most. You found the drugs and you're how old at this point when you realize things are starting to spiral?

[D]

I was 24 years old and I had an apartment, I had two cars. I thought it was doing okay. And then I met this guy.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[D]

Which is, you know, very commonplace. Every woman I ever met in prison, met some guy or so there was this man, and. And within six months of meeting this person, I was in a humongous amount of debt and looking at 25 to life.

[A]

Joe. 25 to life. Amy, what'd you do?

[D]

There's, you know, I was selling drugs on the weekends, not to minimize it, but that's what I was doing at the time. I also had my dream job. I worked with adults with developmental differences in traumatic brain injuries. But that wasn't really cutting the mustard. So I decided to supplement my income. And in the middle of that, I met this guy. And, you know, it was very small time. I wasn't trying to make a career out of this. And he convinced me to dabble in a variety of, you know, street pharmaceuticals that I didn't want to deal with. And this person decided one evening we were going to kidnap someone at gunpoint that owed $20.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh. How old are you at this point?

[D]

I was 24. I had. I think the day we got picked up, I had just turned 25 maybe, but I was 24. 25.

[A]

And how old is the guy?

[D]

Actually? Much younger. It was 20. And I didn't know. I thought this person was older.

[A]

So somebody owes you guys money over a drug deal.

[D]

And I was like, hey, I gotta go to work in the morning. You know, I gotta go to work tomorrow. It's not a big deal. It's $20. And by then it was. It was too late. Poor girl was in the back of the car already. And, you know, I was driving, and firearm was tossed over the top of the car to me. And we drove around for a long time. So long that, you know, I was. I didn't know where we were at some point. And it started to get dark because when we picked this young lady up or when we kidnapped her at gunpoint, it was still light out. So it got dark, and we were in an alley. And I looked in the rearview mirror and I thought it looked like, you know, she was going to get killed. So I ran out and I said, it's time to go home.

[A]

Wait a minute. So your boyfriend is out there with her trying to get the money out of her, and it's going horribly wrong.

[D]

Horribly wrong. But, you know, God intervenes in really incredible ways all the time. And gun misfired, and we were able to go home after that. He tried to shoot her and everything just didn't work out that way. And then, you know, we took her back to, you know, not far from where we kidnapped her from. And there was already, you know, an APB out for us. And I think multiple people had already called the police. So we dropped her off. I had to beat her up. I beat her up. And I'm like, I'm sorry. And she said, it's okay. I'll see you tomorrow. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so awkward.

[A]

How do you mean, you're gonna see her tomorrow?

[D]

She wanted to pay.

[A]

I was like, oh, my gosh.

[D]

I said, I think that means you're paid up at this point. Right? So she hands me some her jewelry, and I'm just like, this is surreal. At this point, I still am not understanding the weight of what just transpired. And not long after that, the entire police department came and got us.

[A]

Now, wait a minute. Your dad's a sheriff?

[D]

Yes. And he was still active duty at this point, and he had worked in as a bailiff in the courthouse that I was in for, I think, like, maybe 11, a lot of years. He was there for a long time. So I knew a lot of the sheriffs that were working lockup in there, and they were like, what are you doing here? I haven't seen you since you were 4 years old. I was like, I don't know.

[A]

So they book you?

[D]

They book. Well, before they booked me, they interrogated us for a long time, and they had my phone, and they saw a picture of my dad in uniform. Me and my dad. And the detective said, I know this guy. I know this guy. You're never gonna see him again. And I was like, why? Are you serious? And he said, you're never gonna see him again. And I said, or what do I have to say? And I told on myself, because I was freaking out. Like, what am I. I'm not gonna see my dad again. I said, okay, I beat her up. Can I. I have to go to work now. Can I go to work? Just totally.

[A]

You have no idea what you're into.

[D]

Absolutely.

[A]

Now your boyfriend's next door. He's probably being interrogated as well.

[D]

Interrogated? Telling them he had never met me before.

[A]

Oh.

[D]

And they. They told me. They came back and said, hey, this guy doesn't know you. I said, well, are you sure? They were like, he doesn't know you. Just roll. And I said, well, I can't do that. So I said, I beat her up. She owed me $20. So then they said, well, here's your charges. And it was this long, incredibly long list. Kidnapping for ransom, false imprisonment with intent to torture, bringing Narcotics into a facility because I thought I was leaving. You know, I didn't think. I thought, okay, this is assault or this is assault and battery. But I didn't see that really coming. And I still. The weight of the situation hadn't hit me at all.

[A]

You literally think you're going home after this, but they keep you in the lockup, and now they tell you you need a lawyer.

[D]

Well, my dad came to see me in the morning, and he said, you told on yourself? I said, well, yeah, he said, after years of watching, you know, Law and Order 1st 48 Law and Order cops tell together for years. You told on yourself? I said. They said I was never gonna see you again. He was like, oh, my gosh. So at that point, they don't want to get me a lawyer. What are they gonna get me a lawyer for? I told on myself. So I had a very nice public defender who really wanted me to just tell so I could leave, but, well.

[A]

It doesn't work that way.

[D]

Yeah. And I figured, you know, I'm just not. I can't. I'm not gonna do that. So what was the sentence for after everything was reduced? The final charges were terrorist threats and the use of a firearm. So a gun enhancement of three years and two years for terrorist threats, which are now criminal threats because terrorist is too mean of a word to use in California.

[A]

Hmm. When'd that happen, I wonder?

[D]

I don't know. I just, you know, looked myself up and was like, wow, this has been reduced.

[A]

So you're no longer a terrorist now. You're just a criminal.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Well, congratulations. So what is that? That's five years, then.

[D]

Five years with 85%. So I did four years and nine months.

[A]

But you didn't know that when you went in.

[D]

No, I. Well, the. I mean.

[A]

I mean, 85% is, what, for good behavior or.

[D]

Well, yeah, that's like, your earliest possible release if you don't screw up.

[A]

Okay, so now you're on the bus, and they're taking in handcuffs, leg irons. How does all this work? Like, what is. I mean, basically, what I want to get at here is what. What life is like in a women's prison. Dumb. Here's a little. Did you know about my friends over at ZipRecruiter? They get 10,000 resumes a day. Every single day, 10,000 resumes arrive. That's 300,000amonth, 3.6 million a year. That is a staggering number of resumes to file and sort through. But all of that data is not the only reason why ZipRecruiter can find you a qualified candidate in less than 24 hours. The reason they can do that, and the reason they become the number one hiring site is because they've developed a technology that's second to none. I have no idea how this works, but it's a process that allows them to mine all of that enormous database in a fashion that allows you to proactively connect with the best possible candidate for your company and then send that candidate a personal invitation to be interviewed. This filtering technology is a game changer. And one more reason why you should probably pause this program right now and post a job for [e-mail] ro it don't cost nothing, as my granddad used to say. And what you'll see firsthand is why four out of five employers who do post a job for free at ZipRecruiter.com ro get a quality candidate within one day. ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire. The smartest way to hire.

[D]

It's definitely not what you would expect. It's not like tv. When you catch the chain, that's when you go upstate. They shackle you all together in waist chains and leg irons. And I always had my hands cuffed with a lockbox on it. And, you know, there were people that were like, don't worry, you're gonna be fine. You're gonna be fine. It's not that bad. It's gonna be okay. And this is during the time in the LA County Jail where there was a lot of really crazy stuff going on. There was a humongous lawsuit for unlawful strip searches. So I had just come from that.

[A]

I remember this. What year are we talking?

[D]

2009.

[A]

Right? Yeah. They were just basically hosing people down.

[D]

You know, stripping everybody out outside in groups of 50 in front of, you know, male staff. And it was excessive since I was in. I was in protective custody because my dad was still active duty. So I would have to strip out every step of the way multiple times before I finally got to court or finally upstate. I didn't know any different because I'd never been arrested before. So I just thought it was always invasive and frequent. But nothing really compares to state issued strip search. You get there and they make you take your clothes off and, you know, you're in a cinder block room with 10 or nine other women that you've never met before and you've got to lift everything up and spread everything, and if they're not satisfied, they'll bring a Mirror. And put a mirror under you.

[A]

This is because people are bringing contraband inside their bodies.

[D]

Yes. And I mean, I understand that now. I really didn't understand what was going on. It was. It was so shocking and dehumanizing. I was like, wow, this is.

[A]

So these are men.

[D]

No, these are women. These are all. We're all women.

[A]

So it's all female guards at this point?

[D]

Yes. Okay. And then they give you a little mumu, a blue polka dotted muumu and some flip flops and a cup and a spoon and a lock. And you're supposed to bring all that back when you parole. And then they give you your number. So you have no name, you have no. Everything feminine that you can have is stripped. You don't smell good, you don't have any makeup. And it's hard to wrap my mind around this now because if you're a man who identifies as a woman, you get access to all those things. So it's very frustrating because I was there. You don't feel. You're not a. You don't feel like a woman anymore. You're just a number. You're a dollar.

[A]

You're fairly human, I'm sure. So privacy's gone.

[D]

Absolutely.

[A]

Dignity pretty much gone. What's the cell block?

[D]

Actually, that's a great question. Because in ccwf, which is the second largest women's prison in America, there are eight man cells. This is an eight person cell that was originally designed for four people. It has two sinks, a shower, a toilet, and four bunk areas. It used to just be four beds. And then when the overcrowding started, they.

[A]

Put it just dumped them up, bunk beds. So you've got eight women in a room with what, I'm guessing a couple sinks.

[D]

Two sinks? Yeah, two sinks. The shower and the toilet. And you share about 6ft of space in your bunk area. And that's hard with women. So I can't imagine what it's like to share with somebody who's coming from the killing fields of men's person. I don't get it.

[A]

Remember your first night?

[D]

Yes. I remember it was a Friday and I was so excited because there was grass. I was outside and we had artificial crab for dinner. And I was like, wow, this is awesome. Wow. And then, you know, I got into my cell and at this point in receiving, there are two man cells. It looks like a real prison. And I just. The doors locked and I was like, wow, what did you do? And then I saw all these people I had never seen. I was like, that Looks like a little kid.

[A]

How.

[D]

Why are they putting children here? What's going on here? There was just so many things I wanted to know about. Why does the water smell like poison? What's going. Well, this is. There were so many things that I just started clocking. I told my parents I need Erin Brockovich's address immediately. Something's wrong with the water here. And sure enough, that was the year people started getting legionnaires. And, I mean, I know now, but the arsenic levels are about 2,029 times higher parts per billion than medically recommended. There's hexavalent chromium, there's manganese. I mean, as soon as I got there, I was like, this water doesn't smell right.

[A]

So what about the kids? You said you.

[D]

Oh, they were just young women, young 18 year olds that were all coming in with life, but they looked like children. I was like, I didn't know this was for children, too, but they were 18, and there were quite a few during the time that I processed in. A lot of them are still there, but some of them have come home. It's good, but it was unlike anything I'd ever seen. It was very diverse. Very, very interesting to be around all ladies. There were some things that weren't terrible. I mean, the whole experience wasn't awful all around. I would have stayed longer. I probably should have stayed longer. I could have used a little bit more time, but explain. I just learned so much about how important the responsibility of being a woman is. It's a big deal. I didn't know how dangerous, how different it is because I'd been sheltered so much. I get there and I'm like, wow, you had a hard life. This is crazy. Your parents did what to you? I was just fascinated with the hurt and the. Just how awful a lot of these people's lives were. And I was like, how could they make you go to prison for this? This is crazy. This is illegal. We should call the aclu. And then I learned how to stop hating myself. It took, you know, a big lifer yelling at me every day, telling me stuff like, if a boy only calls you on payday, he doesn't like you. And it took almost five years of people really pounding that kind of stuff and. Well, not physically pounding it. Well, sometimes just telling me those kind of things. That's how, you know, out of touch. I was. I really needed, like, a crash course in how to not hate myself and how. How the world doesn't revolve around me.

[A]

Well, you know what? I was Going to point it out. Earlier, when you were just talking about how things went so sideways, you corrected yourself twice. We picked up the girl, kidnapped her. I mean, you're calling a thing what it is. And maybe for a while there, you.

[D]

Weren'T right, because I really didn't. I wasn't. I feel like my eyes were closed. You know, I wasn't taking into consideration the impact my actions had on this lady. Like, she's probably really not okay. Her whole family was traumatized. I mean, this was a big deal. This isn't normal behavior at all. And I'm sorry it took all of that for me to get to this point. But I know I'm supposed to be here, and this is what I'm supposed to do. It's just unfortunate that there was so many horrible situations that led up to this, but I know it was important for me to go to prison.

[A]

Do you feel like you were. What's that scene in Shawshank? You know, are you rehabilitated?

[D]

I don't think rehabilitation ever reaches a level of completion. I think it's like an ongoing thing. Same with re. Acclimating or transitioning. It's permanent. Like, it's something that you have to maintain an upkeep. It doesn't completely go away. Like a lot of us, that we're still in touch. We check ourselves all the time. Like, we don't think like that anymore. No, you're right. We don't.

[A]

What are men doing in women's prisons?

[D]

They are living. You know, people say, how many, amy? And like, 45. Like, just 45.

[A]

45 men are in California women's prisons. And they're in there because California still has a law, a bill. Is it 132?

[D]

Yes, by my good buddy, Senator Scott Wiener.

[A]

Scott Wiener, the Wiener.

[D]

He's very proud of this bill and he authored it and I think 2019, worked on it for a while, and it began implementation in 2021. And that's around the same time that I started to develop my organization, what's it called? Woman to Woman, which was very controversial.

[A]

You developed this in why is It Controversial?

[D]

You know, I was in cohorts with different organizations before I knew that the nonprofit industrial complex was a thing. I had no idea how much of a business nonprofit is. I'm working with these other orgs, these other people. And I said, you know what? I don't think I'm going to go in this direction. I'm going to go ahead and not renew my contract, and I'm going to work on something for women. And they said, what do you mean you're going to work on something for women? I said, well, I'm going to develop services that are specifically designed for women. We used to have those, remember? And they said, we don't even think that's legal, and you're putting your life in grave danger. And I was like, oh, we don't. Is that a threat? Because they know about that. We don't do that.

[A]

So you're Talking about, like, NGOs coming into prisons with various agendas being funded by who knows what. What are these agendas and how does Scott Wiener have anything to do with those?

[D]

Well, he. I feel like prison is ground zero for, like, human experimentation, socioeconomic experimenting, because this is a microcosm of society. So if you're going to implement things that you want to take place nationwide, you're going to start in the prison because it's an easy place to conduct these kind of things under the radar because nobody cares. I understand. Because if you're not directly impacted by the system, this is not something you generally need to be concerned about. But this is what's happening in there. They started doing this in prison because this is what they have planned for the free world. As you can see, it's already happening.

[A]

Are you talking specifically about the transgender thing or variety?

[D]

And there's other things. I mean, there's a lot of medical testing that goes on in there. I mean, everybody's on semaglutides in there. I mean, pretty expensive out here, but they're giving out, as you know, those medications to everybody. What's a semi glutide Ozempic, wegovy. They have full access to those things. And I always have this thought in the back of my head, if they're giving it away to incarcerated people en masse, it's probably because this is not good.

[A]

Are they giving it away? I mean, are you compelled to take it, or are they just giving it to you and say, take this if you want?

[D]

Well, they're definitely promoting it. Don't you want to get on this just the same as they do with the cross sex hormones? They definitely encourage that. There's a lot of coercion that goes on there. If you're, you know, a little stud, they tell you you're not gay, you were just born in the wrong body, take some testosterone and, you know, a lot of people have issues. They're people pleasers or they just want to be affirmed, they want to be validated. And if a mental health clinician is telling you you're doing a great job. You're going to eat it up. It's going to make you feel good.

[A]

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[D]

When I was there, just one. This was before. This was in 2011, I think. This individual was extradited from Texas to serve their life sentence in California for two rapes that they committed in a city not far from the prison. The mother and daughter, who were property owners and showing an apartment and this person electrocuted them, tortured them during the assault. And when they finally got out of the observation period, when they came over, they went straight to the chairwoman of the Women's Advisory Council, now the Inmate Advisory Council, and asked her, can you help get me a job in the electric shop? And, you know, that's pretty terrifying. That's a great way to hurt people without ever touching them.

[A]

So wait a minute. This is a guy, he rapes two women and he's sent to prison and he's in a male prison.

[D]

Okay, in Texas for another case in Texas.

[A]

How's he wind up in California in a female prison?

[D]

Because he had another pending case in California. And then this person tried to mutilate themselves to, you know, convince the committees to reassign them as female.

[A]

And it worked, you're saying? Tried to remove a bodily organ successfully.

[D]

Partial, partially, almost. Doesn't count, though. You know, it doesn't matter what kind of parts you take off of a person. It doesn't change who they are. You could take everything off and you still are who you are. And it doesn't take male part to really be assaultive. Just saying something. It sent shock waves through the whole population. There was this somber, overwhelming feeling of just defeat. People were crying like, how could the governor let this happen to us? Doesn't he know? Does he know we're all rape survivors? How is this. How are they letting this happen? And this person brought male prison politics with them. We don't have that in women's prison. There's no separation by security level, gang affiliation, race, nothing like that.

[A]

That's interesting. Why? Women are just more, what, familial?

[D]

Yes. Women will make little pseudo families, and it takes years to cultivate them, but you have them. There's a dad, there's a mom. That's what everybody does.

[A]

And are these families, do they normally unfold inside the cell block itself with the same eight people that you're basically living with and showering with and sleeping with?

[D]

A lot of times, yeah. Or sometimes you'll be across the hallway from each other or in the same unit. It's not always healthy for, you know, friends to all live together. So it doesn't always work out. But when this stuff happened, there's aspects of the law that are completely unheard of in the carceral setting. These individuals who transfer allowed to pick their room, pick their bunky. If they feel uncomfortable with anybody in the room, they can tell staff and say, I want to be by myself now, or I don't want these people in here. That's giving them the ability to wield power over the whole female population.

[A]

I don't understand. Why do they have this power?

[D]

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. They've created this narrative that they're so marginalized. It's kind of like a reward. But the way it was presented, people thought these rights were being, like, reinstilled or reissued. Nobody has the right to do any of that in prison, ever. So I was reading this bill, like, what the heck you can pick your. Pick your own bunky.

[A]

Is this 132? Okay, so HR or HB?

[D]

SB.

[A]

SB 132, put forth by Scott Wiener, who I believe lives in San Francisco. Yes, last I checked. That's why I know his name. So this bill allows this guy who's twice convicted of rape in Texas to be transferred to California to stand trial for something else. He's found guilty of that, and at that point he mutilates himself and decides he's a woman.

[D]

I think that mutilation happened in Texas.

[A]

In Texas. Okay.

[D]

And this is before that law was implemented. So this was on a. On the. Already on the California rules and regulations, case by case. They dealt with these things in a case by case situation. So somehow they thought this was a good move. They allowed it to happen. It didn't work out very well. He's transferred to Chowchilla, but he didn't last very long. The racial politics were a really big problem. Women aren't, you know, we don't have blacks watching TV over here and whites watching TV over here. And it triggered a lot of people. And this person was attacked eventually and sent to the lower security prison, which is like the equivalent of a Men's Level 0. And they were, you know, escorted into the honor wing where they still currently reside with their girlfriend.

[A]

This guy has a girlfriend or this girl has a guy or whatever.

[D]

Yes. And the women who were involved in that situation, they're never going to let them live that down. The parole board's never going to let them live that down. And I felt really compelled to do what I do, partially because I feel like that was a trauma response. These are all survivors of sexual assault. And you put, you know, this same factor that caused their original traumas in a setting like that with them, it's gonna freak them out. They're going to have issues.

[A]

Are you painting with a. I mean, that's a broad brush, but when you say all, it's everybody.

[D]

The ACLU did a study in, gosh, the early 2000s, and it said 92% of incarcerated women in California have been battered or beaten. But everybody I met pretty much was, you know, a survivor. I didn't even realize it until, you know, I came home. I was like, wow, everybody is really messed up. Like, it. It's very unfortunate. There's. This is not healthy. This isn't allowing for any of these people to access the one thing they're supposed to be able to access, which is rehabilit. Not for the men, either. This isn't normal for them. This isn't allowing them to rehabilitate or, you know, recover from their original traumas. This is just letting them sit in there and get worse.

[A]

So did SB132 officially pass?

[D]

Oh, with flying colors.

[A]

And it's still the law of California. What else does it allow these 44 or 45 men in women's prisons to do?

[D]

While they're pretty much above the law, you can't. It's really hard to discipline them for any kind of violations. Staff feel like they have their hands tied. They're afraid to tell them anything because they know they're all, you know, connected to high power law firms. They're afraid of all the lawsuits. It's created a really humongous, like power imbalance. They're able to pick their jobs. They get free douche.

[A]

Free douche.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah, right?

[A]

You mean there's a charge for women?

[D]

Yeah, you gotta buy it on canteen. You know, just because you're born with one doesn't mean that you get to access things that are for your woman parts. You got to buy that. They also have access to different kind of health care, which I think is unreasonable. I mean, even being formally incarcerated, I feel like life saving procedures, of course, but things that are elective, I don't think that's appropriate. Things like facelift. Right. Nobody ever died from having a penis or a vagina. Those are not deadly circumstances. But this is what's available now. Things. I mean, full body laser hair removal, facelifts, breast implants, Adam's apple reduction. What else? Giving them Rogaine for male pattern baldness.

[A]

These things, are they available to the female population but you have to pay for it? No, they're not available?

[D]

No. I mean, there's women who've been there for decades who need to have their breast implants removed and replaced. And their families are like, well, pay, you know, it's gonna really ruin her self esteem. We'll pay for you to, you know, do this. No, absolutely not. No. It's. I don't know how, how much more unfair and degrading this can get. Yes, I do. When they installed the condom dispensers, that really did a number. Because there's so many other moving parts to this. There's a big wave of staff sexual misconduct that's being exposed. And then you have the men moving in. So to install condom dispensers in a women's prison. Yes. On Super Bowl Sunday, nobody comes to work on that day. Nobody. But they had staff working overtime to install condom dispensers with rainbow condoms and flavored dental dams. Now, there's been women in that prison since it was built, and they never provided flavored dental dams. So I'm sure that was just to offset the ridiculousness of condom dispensers. But that's been on the books in California since 2015, when Rob Bonta, our attorney general, was just a little assemblyman. He wrote a bill, I think, 999 or something, that said all state prisons must provide condoms by 2019. And there was only one Republican official who said, why would you put them in the women's prison? But Bonta was, you know, a hardliner on this and said every single prison must have these. But they didn't put them in either of the women's prisons until the transfer started.

[A]

That's insane. I mean, that's just. All right, so is this Also in this SB132?

[D]

No, these are just all different horrible bills that have come together. I mean, that wasn't horrible. I'm sure they're trying to mitigate the transmission of HIV in men's prisons, which is going to end up being a problem in women's prison now, too.

[A]

What do people need to know about the daily reality of these men being in women's prisons?

[D]

All these women were sentenced to prison. They were sentenced to. To pay their debt back to society. And none of this was a part of the deal. This is the most oppressive. They can't talk about it, they can't complain about it. If they do, they're disciplined, they're transphobic, and they have to move. You can't refuse to room with one of these people. There's nobody to talk to. If you want to go see a mental health clinician because you're having a really hard time, they're going to tell you something like, hey, you're being transphobic. And I have to end our session because I don't feel safe anymore. Two women told me that that's ridiculous and they were complaining or trying to confide in somebody about a 6 foot 4 Mexican mafia dropout who's got a really long body count because they were feeling afraid, but they couldn't express that. They can't tell the organizations that go in to help them because they get shut down. No, we're not talking about that. We're not talking about that because they all supported this.

[A]

This is the NGOs you were talking about.

[D]

They all fully supported this. And I was mad for years, but I'm not mad anymore. Just get out of my way. You know, I'm not mad. So you did that. It helped you get funded. Okay? California's got so much money on the table. Get your money, but just let me fix this, please.

[A]

What I mean is this. It's not a secret, is it? Like, who are these NGOs? Where is this money coming from?

[B]

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[A]

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[D]

I mean, Soros has a lot of. It all comes from a common purse, you know, like the Transgender Law center and blm. Like, they all have, you know, very similar donors, if not the same. They're all radicalizing these people. And then on top of that, there's now higher education that's available, too. And that's a really hotspot for indoctrination. So they're getting hit from every direction. I mean, people, women that are really strong, women of faith, call crying, and they're like these teachers, these professors are trying to make me think that a cult is only called a cult because it's outside of Judeo Christian normatives. And I'm like, dang, this is really. You have to worry about this, too. But there's physical things that happen that. It's a nightmare. And it's the things that I knew would happen. Abusive relationships. People say, well, why aren't you worried about, you know, same sex, abusive relationships? Well, because you can't bring a vagina to a penis fight. You're going to lose every single time. There was a situation a couple years ago where the staff had to bring out. The investigative services unit, had to bring out shovels and cadaver dogs because they were looking for fetal remains. And even though the search was unsubstantiated, why would they even have to do that? And these women are just looking out their windows, like, what? The dogs are here? What's going on? What are they looking for?

[A]

Obviously what you're saying is somebody was raped, pregnant, they aborted the pregnancy and then they buried the fetus, or they. Or they delivered a baby, or she.

[D]

Was in love and then beaten until she lost it. But there's other. This is an isolated situation. There's coerced abortions. There's babies that are being born. There's. I think next month the trial starts for an individual who was transferred back to men's prison last year because the Madera County DA picked up two rape allegations. And this is the same person that I had been warning the prison about for months and months and months and months. But that person is not okay either. That person had a really terrible childhood and never really had a chance. And this is. State, like, facilitated these situations. Our elected officials need to be held accountable for this stuff.

[A]

How do we do that?

[D]

I don't know. Because you can't, like, sue them as individuals.

[A]

Have you ever met Scott Weiner?

[D]

Yes. We actually had a good run in the first time I met him. I was hysterical. I don't know what happened. The Holy Spirit had me crying or something. But the Freedom Angels, these two moms that are freaking awesome, chased him down at the Capitol. And they were pulling me and were running down the hallway. They said, senator Wiener, we gotta introduce you to somebody. This is Amy Ichikawa. And he was like, oh, he knew you. And I said, it's so nice to finally meet you, sir.

[A]

So I don't get it. You were.

[D]

I don't know if I was exhausted or delusional. I was out of my mind because I was telling myself, why are you being so weak? This is your nemesis, you know? And I said, senator, I just want to Give you these letters from some women inside. And he was like, okay. And I said, here's my card. He said, I already have it on my desk. Don't waste it. I was like, okay, thank you. And then recently, he's on the Public Safety Committee. And I had a bill with Senator Shannon Grove that would have prohibited sex offenders from being able to transfer under this bill. And he just, he really didn't like it.

[A]

What is his agenda? What is he hoping to accomplish with a bill?

[D]

Well, there's, there's, I think, you know, the prioritization of predators, predator prioritization is a big one. Making like, normalizing sex offenses, it seems like, because there's been other bills that have passed that are definitely beneficial to sex offenders. And I think probably the abolition of the agent consent is on the table because a lot of his bills are around parental control, your ability to be a participant in your own child's life and to make the state stronger parent in child's lives than their own parents. But with this whole SB132 stuff, it just seems like there's a disconnect, like with the vulnerability of women, he's not getting it. And part of me thinks maybe he's been bamboozled. I'd like to give him that out, you know, because the trans women in men's prison are like, where did he get his statistics and his information from? Because it's not coming from us. We don't want to go over there. We don't want to go over there because we know it's sucks. We know that the staff are disrespectful far more than they are over here. They know that the programming is better at men's prisons. There's more opportunities. They don't want to go over there. They have boyfriends. The heck do they want to go to the women's side for? But there's just this. This narrative that there's our delicate flowers that are being mishandled and tortured by everybody and misgendered at every waking minute, and it's just destroying them. But the people I've spoken to in men's prison are not saying that they're like, these are people with, you know, nefarious intentions. These are people that can't be over here anymore because they have nowhere else to hide. So they're effectively turning women's prison into, like men's protective custody overflow. And I mean, there's even a situation where somebody saw another individual kill somebody on the cell block and he testified against him. In court and staff recklessly housed him with the murderer and he was in grave danger. So he just said, I'm a woman, and started the paperwork to transfer and.

[A]

The transfer went through. Is it really that simple? All they have to do is just say, nope, this is. I've decided it.

[D]

It was for the, you know, the first busload, it seemed like, but they have. I think the Department of Corrections has done a real bang up job on slowing this down as much as they can, because the law is. It's the law now. The law is the law. And there, there's 211 pending transfer requests that, that are just waiting for the committee to evaluate them. They don't have like a really good guideline because the people that have transferred, 33.8% are registered sex offenders. There's somebody there who killed another man in men's prison. I would think that would make you, you know, probably not a good move, but it went through. I mean, you would think you would lose all your privileges if you kill somebody else in prison. Like you say, you don't get to, you know, now pick your prison and your roommate and your bunky, but.

[A]

And maybe get that Adam's apple reduced.

[D]

Yes, definitely. I mean, the full body laser hair removal. I was like, get out of here. I know a lot of bearded ladies that would really love to have that. I mean, that would be awesome. But no.

[A]

So what were you doing in Texas? Why were you in the cabinet?

[D]

Oh, because Senator Troxclair was putting a bill up to codify the definitions of man and woman, male and female, boy and girl, to the Constitution in Texas. And Peyton and I were there to support her. And their sessions are really crazy though. They only do legislation every two years, so they go to way into the wee midnight hours. So I was trying to hang around to testify, but I was like, I don't have any more clothes. I gotta go. So I was sure to submit all my written testimony to all the committee members and it passed. I mean, it's Texas. It passed and it's awesome. They're the 17th state now that's adopted this language that is, you know, based off of IWF's model for biological definitions. They have to be codified. There's 133 laws in Texas that use female based language. So now you can't manipulate it.

[A]

How did you get wrapped up with the Independent Women's Forum?

[D]

I was in Texas a couple years ago. I was in Austin for a Let Women Speak event and they contacted me after and I was Totally thrown off. I was like, is this really happening? They're talking to me, and they were really talking to me.

[A]

Why did. Was it because women's. Women, like, what got on their radar?

[D]

I think what did just. I was talking as much as I could. I still do, you know, doing as many interviews as possible. And I think they're one of the chapter leads. The chapter lead in Texas, I think, highlighted me. And then there's another one in Arizona that I know, and I think that helped a lot. And we hadn't even. I hadn't even met the one in Arizona in person until, you know, last year. I was like, is this our first time meeting? I feel like we've always been friends. It's crazy how connected I get with these ladies. And it's all, you know, on Twitter or over the phone or on Zoom. But they pulled me in, and I had never. I mean, it totally restored my hope in women in general. I've never seen. They operate amazing. They get a lot of stuff done. And I was like, wow, thank you. And everybody's so sweet and polite and encouraging. And I was like, I get to. I get to be a part of this. And they were like, yes, yes. And I was so humbled. Like, they care because it's hard. It's a hard topic. I don't expect people to. To, like, feel sorry or want to help a bunch of killers, but they. They did. And it just was crazy. It was the most refreshing thing ever, because doing this by myself with just my two partners that have to work full time because, you know, gotta survive. It's been a pretty uphill battle for us. We knew it was going to be a heavy when we picked it up.

[A]

But it hasn't gotten much lighter.

[D]

No. And then, you know, now, because we're in contact with women in federal prisons, and if you think state prison's bad, you know, who do you call for help when you're in the Feds? The Feds, they're not going to help you. It's really bad over there.

[A]

How much worse is it and how is it worse?

[D]

Well, was it last year? This is how I started to understand about the Feds. I met my good friend Grandma Debbie. I was with Christian Post, and we were doing a panel in Texas, and she came out. She was referred to me from, like, First Liberty, I think. And there was a woman who was her good friend who was horribly, horribly, horribly assaulted by a trans person who actually turned out to be a woman. Popped up on testosterone. But this lady is completely disfigured and not okay. And she's never going to be physically okay. And this lady's telling me this story, and I'm like, oh, no. This is literally the worst. I thought I'd heard everything. This is the worst thing I'd ever heard. And the level of neglect and deliberate indifference that she experienced. The prison didn't want to be responsible for letting this happen, so they just let her lay there until scar tissue developed that was so big she couldn't even walk. And she still, you know, they denied the reconstruction, the reconstructive surgery a couple times before they finally gave the hospital the green light. So I started getting, you know, into the federal issues, and then there was a judiciary hearing that was coming up for, you know, Biden nominated magistrates to get permanent seats in really prominent federal courts. And there was one specific one, Sarah Netburn, who was going to get the Southern New York District Court, which is one of the most influential courts in the system. And I was like, oh, wait a minute. So she said that this person, jjs, who's a sex offender, like a prolific sex offender, it was appropriate for that person to be moved to Carswell State Federal Prison, which is a women's medical prison, because.

[A]

Medical prison. What's that?

[D]

There's people with, like, high medical needs that are there. So they're transferring a lot of them down there now. And there's a high volume of sex offenders. So, you know, so if you're sick.

[A]

You had there. I didn't realize that there were separate.

[D]

Prisons that have increased medical available facilities. Yes, but this person, she said that the women's. In her report, she said that the women's fears are overblown. And this was against the recommendation from the BoP, from the Bureau of Prisons. They were saying, no, no, no, this is inappropriate. Let this person complete the program for sex offenders here, and then we can, you know, put this person then in the transgender unit, then we can take it from there. And this judge, this radical judge, was no way transfer this person now. And I talked to women in that prison. So as soon as that person got there, they pulled their pecker out and were saying, you know, give me two weeks, ladies, and it'll be, you know, completely operational. And, you know, that's when I got in touch with the Judiciary Committee and Ted Cruz's office. We were able to, you know, get them all the information they needed to get this judge knocked and her nomination is done. It's off the table. And that was the situation where we actually were able to convince Senator Jon Ossoff to vote no on her as well. He's the only person who crossed party lines to deny her that seat, and that was huge. That was a really big deal. I didn't even know it was a big deal till after. But we worked so hard to make sure they had access to information and letters from women and, you know, the cries for help that are going completely unanswered because, you know, they're it, but they're always it. They're always it. There has to be a loser in every political game, and I don't think it should be them anymore.

[A]

Is this all through Women to Women, your organization? I'm still not clear on when you.

[D]

Founded that exact 2021. Early 2021, the same time that SB132 was implemented. So at first, we just wanted to be like a resource hub. Peer support, re entry, transition specialists.

[A]

But re entry into polite society. Yes.

[D]

Because, you know, there's a lot of little things that you don't think are a problem until you get out. Like, I came home and, you know, I heard the dogs running down the hall in the middle of the night, and I could hear their collars banging around, and I thought it was the cops. And I jump up and I'm like, oh, my gosh, they're coming. But nobody's coming. It's the dogs. I was at a gas station with my parents, and a bell went off for the car wash, and I got on the ground and I was like, oh, my gosh. I only did five years. What's gonna happen to people who've done 25? I went to a restaurant with my mom, and the tables were stainless steel, and I had a panic attack. I was like, I can't breathe. And she's laughing, saying, what's wrong with you? And I said, I don't know. But I flashed. I just. It felt like I was in the chow hall. I went to Starbucks, and I was totally overwhelmed. I was like, I just want a coffee. And then I thought, what is somebody who's never even used a cell phone gonna do when they look at that menu?

[A]

Because you don't have a lot of choices to make when you're inside. No, that stuff's decided for you. But what is the stated purpose of Women to women?

[D]

Well, you know, we just want to create a soft landing and coach our friends through the rough spots. There's so many things that can cause you to relapse or give up, and we can see it heading, you know, ahead of time. We can see It. When it's going to happen. We can see it developing, and we just want to be there so that you can have somebody to talk to and not feel so alienated, not feel like you're a total weirdo. And then. And then, you know. Let me tell you about this statement of faith. This is a funny story.

[A]

Women to women believe that the only way to complete rehabilitation from a lifestyle that led to incarceration is through a relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So this is a ministry. Let me bury the lead.

[D]

We needed a checking account, and I didn't get it. Like, I'm still. I'm still. So no banks would call me back, and I was like, everybody must be so busy. And I went into a bank and they were like. We said we'd call you. So I prayed and I was like, gosh, is there a Jesus bank or something? So I looked up Christian banks, and I got on the phone and they were like, well, what's your denomination? I said, I don't know. What's your statement of faith? I said, I don't know. What do you want me to do? And they said, read ours and then send us one. And I was like, this is a lot of stuff. Must be a good bank. So I prayed, wrote something. I sent it to my partners. I said, how's this? They said, don't change anything. Send it. I said, wow. No edits. They said, no, send it. I sent it. And they said, well, then, what do you believe? I said, well, I just gave you my statement of faith. They said, what do you believe, Amy? I said, okay. So I said, give me a half an hour. I wrote that. And that's when I was like, this is what's wrong. We forgot to make the Lord the cornerstone. We started building, and we forgot to lay the foundation.

[A]

So when did you. Did you figure this out when you were in jail or did you know?

[D]

No, I was very abusive. Like, I used Jesus to get through my time. And then when I got out, I was like, thanks. See ya. See you. Next emergency.

[A]

And then when'd you get out?

[D]

2013.

[A]

You got out in 13. You formed Women to Women. 21. So from 19. So from 2013 to 20, 21. Eight years, I was. What are you doing?

[D]

Being just selfish. Enjoying life.

[A]

You're working?

[D]

Yes. I worked in retail for a while. And then what the heck did I do then? I worked as an administrator at a Japanese culinary school.

[A]

Was it hard to get a job?

[D]

Yes. Yes, it was. And the Department of Rehabilitation told me just to get on full disability because I was unemployable. And I was like, that doesn't sound like a good idea.

[A]

Why were you unemployable?

[D]

My handwriting was too aggressive. My handshake was too aggressive. I was like, two pumps? What are you talking about? They said, go get a forklift license. I said, okay, that sounds like a great idea.

[A]

Those are fun to drive.

[D]

Then they. I said, I'll go work at the refinery. That's what I'm gonna do. And then the refinery HR lady was like, I cannot believe that I can't hire you. But I just had to hire a rapist. You're never gonna get in the oil field with that charge, ever. And I was like, oh, well, there goes my hopes and dreams of fire watch. Yeah. So, you know, I worked at this sushi school, and it was wonderful. And then Covid came and I got some quiet time to really think about what's going on. And people kept coming home, and there wasn't access to resources. There's a lot of gatekeeping. There's resources. You just have to know people. And if you don't beg for it, or if you don't know the right people, or if you're not, you know, the poster child for, you know, Marxist indoctrination, you're probably not gonna, you know, get a lot of love. So I thought, let's open this up to people. And that's when this emergency happened. And I thought this was an emergency. It's still an emergency to me. So I had to shift focus to this because it is a crisis. It's a female human rights crisis. I had no idea it was going to be so political or polarized. And people warned me, like, you have no idea what you're getting into. This is way bigger than you think. You can't do this. You have to learn how to talk. You can't talk like this. And I was like, eh, I don't think so. I know how to talk. They were like, you have to learn the language. I said, I know the language and I'm comfortable with using this language. No men in women's prisons. And I thought, who's going to be against this? Who is going to possibly want to fight this?

[A]

In surprise, surprise, it does seem like a winning position. But what is the argument? What's the basic argument in favor of putting men and women prisons?

[D]

Because trans women are women and these are marginalized people that are at a 14% higher risk of being sexually assaulted and they're bullied by staff and It's a, you know, a rapist killing field in men's prison. But it's not, it's not, it's not the movies. This is not the 80s. It's not like that.

[A]

What's it like?

[D]

I mean, there's, it's still the killing field in California. We're at 81 murders this year in state prisons, in our state prisons. And you know, the secretary of CDCR is a governor appointed person. And the governor hasn't said anything about these 81 murders, which is pretty high. I think it's the most ever in a six month period in CDCR history, if I'm correct.

[A]

Well, per capita, I mean, 81 murders in the entire prison population.

[D]

96,000. That's a lot of people.

[A]

81 out of 96,000. Yeah. If that were to translate to the whole population of California, well, that'd be bad.

[D]

But you know, they're doing things like making San Quentin a rehabilitation center because we don't have like 13 trillion bazillion dollars in debt. So let's give the most dilapidated old prison that is on a zillion dollar realty real, real estate. Just sell it, sell it, sell it. That could create a lot of resources.

[A]

It's pretty good beachfront, ocean view property, right?

[D]

But they're gonna build learning centers. And death row was there. So since that there's a moratorium on the death penalty, they have asked the people on death row to integrate with general population. They took I think 34 and put them in a level two men's prison. There's no electric fence, so that's against the law. If you are condemned, you have to be in a facility with an electric fence. But somehow they worked around that. But the men, you know, they do have different opportunities. Education. There's a lot of outside resources that come in and offer certifications and stuff. The women are starting to catch up, but it's still very unbalanced.

[A]

So what was the inciting incident then, Amy? Like what happened to you in 2021? I know, we're locked down. You seem to have gone from like you didn't leave prison, you know, ready to hit the ground running on a mission. I didn't realize that it took you eight years before you decided this was going to be the cause. What caused it?

[D]

In January, I got hundreds of letters and calls from ladies I don't even know. Old ladies, little old ladies, big ladies, little ladies, small ladies, tall ladies, all of them people were like crying and they're like, I'm scared. What Do I do? And I just thought, this is really weird. You guys are losing it. Let me review this law. And when I read it, I was like, oh, I'm gonna barf. I can't believe this. This is worse than they even know. Because it's not like they have access. They're not gonna go look up the final verbiage. And. But I started sending all that in. I was like, okay, we're gonna arm these women with education.

[A]

Let's make sure they know these letters are coming from ladies who are incarcerated.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Because the law came out well.

[D]

They began the implementation because they were holding it off with the lockdowns. But the first busload came, and they were like, those are men. Some of them with boobs, but those are men. They were told, these are going to be delicate flowers, people that are at risk, people that need a safe place to do their time. And these women were like, oh, okay. And that's the. Not what happened. That is not what happened at all. And there was no education provided. There was no preparation. It just. Well, because I think the department didn't think this was going to pass. You know, every officer I've spoken to, they're like, well, nobody thought that was really going to happen, but somehow it did. Yes. Every single Democrat in the state of California voted yes. From the assembly all the way to the governor's office voted yes. All nine Republicans voted no. But what are you going to do? In a super majority, the entire women's caucus fully supported this. And, you know, I sent that information in, too, because I just think that they should get full disclosure and know who's doing this, who's supporting this, who's frameworking things like this, because they should have access to that information. They should know. They should know that when those people come in and smile and take pictures with them to send to their. Put in their, you know, annual reports, they should know that's who is skinning and grinning and making money off of a check written in your blood on your back.

[A]

You know, so to sum up, women to women does have a pretty clear mission, aside from the core belief you just want to get men out of women's prisons.

[D]

Yeah. And I don't want anything bad to happen in them either. Everybody should have a place where they can do their time, rehabilitate and get better, and be the best version that they can possibly be. Especially when you're spending $132,000 a year on these people. They should be coming out ready to, you know, participate in society and live but this is like a recipe for total disaster.

[A]

That's what it costs to incarcerate someone in California. 132 grand a year.

[D]

Yes. That's for somebody with minimal medical needs. That's for a baseline inmate, prisoner, person. But, you know, that's amazing.

[A]

Look, I mean, the more you know, right? The more you know.

[D]

Yes. And you can't care about stuff you don't know about.

[A]

What can people do if they want to join the cause, if they want to be involved?

[D]

Please talk to your elected officials. Talk to your assembly person. It's easy. They're very accessible. It doesn't seem like it, but some intern will take your call, say that this matters to you, because they can't care about what they don't know about either. And they have to know, call Senator Weiner and tell them this isn't normal, that there's got to be a way to ensure all of these people have respect, agency, and dignity. Those aren't things that you can just give to a little tiny part of the population. What happens when you give, you know, supreme rights to a small sector of society? Bad stuff.

[A]

What is the actual name of the bill? What did you say after the number?

[D]

The Transgender Respect Agency and Dignity Act. And I have used those three words so much to try and drive it home that these are basic human rights. You can't just give them to a little bit of people, and then you have the rest of the ladies, like, oh, okay. They've never had respect, agency, or dignity ever. Ever. Before prison, in prison, after prison. So those are free. California can definitely afford to ensure that everybody has access to that, but there's just so much resistance, and I've done my best to really soften the delivery of the message, and my heart has softened, and I do care about these people now. I was mad. I was really mad in 2021, but I'm, like, fully understanding now that I have to care about all of them to really advocate correctly. So I would like for them to be able to safely do their time over there.

[A]

As Harry Bosch would put it, everybody matters or nobody matters.

[D]

Yeah. It took a long time to get here, but it's. I'm glad I finally made it.

[A]

Well, I'm glad you came by. It's fascinating what you're doing. The IWF is doing great work, I assume. WomenToWomen.org?

[D]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

For more info.

[D]

Yes. Yes. And.

[A]

And that's the Roman numeral, too, not the. Not the Arabic, which technically is I. I. Yes, I. I. Yeah. Woman I I woman.org because the number two was taken.

[D]

Number two was taken.

[A]

This is so much simpler, Amy.

[D]

I was like, yeah, this looks easy. This is definitely not going to confuse people at all.

[A]

Yeah, nonprofits are exciting, aren't they?

[D]

It's quite an industry.

[A]

Thanks again for coming and good luck.

[D]

Thank you very much.

[B]

When you leave a review, which we.

[A]

Hope that you'll do, Tell us who you are. Tell us who you are and before you go whoa, whoa, Won't you leave? Five star. Five lousy little star. Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[D]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[A]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be a T mobile commercial like you. Teach me. So. Dana.

[D]

Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[A]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network. Nice.

[D]

Jeffrey, you heard them.

[A]

T mobile is the best place to.

[B]

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[A]

So what are we having for launch?

[D]

Dude, my work here is done with.

[B]

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[C]

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