Podcast Summary
The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe
Episode 462: Del Bigtree—An Inconvenient Study
Date: December 9, 2025
Episode Overview
In this compelling episode, Mike Rowe sits down with Del Bigtree, filmmaker and activist, to discuss Bigtree’s recent film, An Inconvenient Study. The conversation centers on the contentious and often emotional debate around vaccine safety, medical freedom, and public trust in scientific and governmental institutions. Rowe grapples—personally and publicly—with the fallout from discussing these topics, the erosion of trust in experts, and what it means for American society. The discussion dives deep into Bigtree’s investigation, the study at the center of his film, and the broader implications for science, journalism, and public health.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. The Erosion of Trust in Institutions
- Public Skepticism: Rowe discusses his personal journey with skepticism toward institutions—especially regarding health, science, and journalism. He asserts a significant portion of the public no longer trusts these pillars:
- “Half the country no longer trusts the experts.” (22:52, Mike Rowe)
- Polarization and Debate: Rowe shares how his previous interview with Gavin de Becker ignited controversy, highlighting the lack of middle ground in public discourse around vaccines and health risks.
- “In my ecosystem, no middle... The people who are angry are very angry. The people who are relieved and emboldened are tremendously so.” (19:17, Mike Rowe)
2. The Core of An Inconvenient Study
- Premise: The film centers on a large, unpublished retrospective study comparing health outcomes of vaccinated and unvaccinated children within the Henry Ford Health system.
- Findings: The unreleased study showed a dramatically increased risk of chronic disease in vaccinated children compared to their unvaccinated peers:
- Chronic disease risk: “2.5 times the rate of chronic disease if you've been vaccinated compared to those that are not vaccinated... 57% of these children will end up with chronic disease if they were vaccinated. In the unvaccinated group, it's only 17%.” (58:28-61:11, Del Bigtree)
- Barriers: The study remained unpublished, with the lead scientist refusing to release it over fear for his career, despite initially promising to publish regardless of results.
- “But I'm not that guy. I don't want to lose my job, so I'm not doing it.” (63:56, Dr. Zervos, as recounted by Rowe/Bigtree)
3. The Role of Science and Journalism
- Skepticism is Essential: Both hosts repeatedly stress that questioning is the foundation of science and journalism.
- “If the question ever stops being asked or is not allowed in the room, then science has just been converted into a religion.” (26:13, Del Bigtree)
- “Profoundly skeptical, deeply annoying to power… The press, the last thing… should care about is ratings.” (25:41, Mike Rowe)
- Comparison to Religion/Dogma: Both observe that the conversation about vaccines and health policy has become dogmatic and faith-based, replacing humility and curiosity with arrogance.
- Demands for Evidence: The hosts call for transparent, robust scientific debate and the publication of all relevant studies.
- “We just want to see the evidence. Ask your doctor to show you a placebo based trial.” (55:11, Del Bigtree)
4. Conflict, Courage, and Human Nature
- Institutional and Personal Cowardice: The film’s most poignant moment involves Dr. Zervos admitting he won’t publish for fear of retribution, which leads both Rowe and Bigtree to reflect on courage in science and journalism.
- “The guy is sitting there agreeing that the study is solid, and he doesn't know he's being recorded... but he says, I'm not that guy. I don't want to lose my job.” (63:56, Mike Rowe)
- “That moment in your movie is transcendent... it's tragic. Because in the same way that I think curiosity and humility are two of the three legs... the third is courage.” (66:04, Mike Rowe)
- Ethics of Hidden Cameras: Both discuss the ethical ambiguity of recording people without their knowledge, especially in the pursuit of exposing truths for the public good.
- “I don't know how I feel about you either.” (67:03, Mike Rowe)
- “To be honest, I'm conflicted about it.” (67:05, Del Bigtree)
5. What Is to Be Done?
- Call for Large-Scale, Transparent Studies: Bigtree advocates for a massive, collaborative, retrospective study—one he hoped Robert F. Kennedy Jr. would commission as HHS Secretary.
- The Need for Public Pressure: Bigtree insists change will only come when enough people demand it, drawing parallels to other social movements.
- Not Anti-Vaccine, But Pro-Transparency: Both Rowe and Bigtree are careful to stake out positions that are skeptical, not absolutist.
- “I don't believe science is ever settled.” (81:00, Del Bigtree)
- “Are you still open to the possibility that vaccines could truly be one of the greatest breakthroughs?” — “Yes.” (80:28-80:29, Mike Rowe/Del Bigtree)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On Erosion of Institutional Trust
- “At least half the country no longer trusts the experts.” — Mike Rowe (22:52)
- “I think as a country we've entered an age where skepticism has never been more important on every single level.” — Mike Rowe (53:41)
On Courage and Cowardice
- “But I'm not that guy. I don't want to lose my job, so I'm not doing it.” — Dr. Zervos (63:56, recounted)
- “That moment in your movie is transcendent in so many ways... it's tragic.” — Mike Rowe (66:04)
On Science and Journalism
- “Science must be questioned. If the question ever stops being asked or is not allowed in the room, then science has just been converted into a religion.” — Del Bigtree (26:13)
- “If you are pro-vaccine, from my perspective, you're anti-science because they've never done the science.” — Del Bigtree (76:49)
On the Study's Results
- “2.5 times the rate of chronic disease if you've been vaccinated compared to those that are not vaccinated.” — Del Bigtree (58:28)
- “No retrospective study has ever indicated that the vaccinated are healthier.” — Mike Rowe (61:38)
On the Role of the Public
- “Success is... I live in a nation... that demands that we get involved with our government, that we ask for what we want, we vote for the things we believe, and we focus on the things we care about.” — Del Bigtree (75:53)
- “We just want to see the evidence.” — Del Bigtree (55:11)
On Institutional Apologies and Earning Trust
- “I want to trust the institutions again... They have to earn it back.” — Mike Rowe (87:17)
- “I'm still waiting for an apology.” — Del Bigtree (87:20)
- “You know, Tony Fauci has admitted it in front of the Congress. We just made this stuff up. Okay then. And every news anchor that, you know, that intimidated us, that played on our empathy... Those people need to apologize.” — Del Bigtree (88:44)
Key Timestamps
- 00:03-05:44: Introduction, context, and summary of previous debates (Rowe)
- 07:31-10:38: Early conversation, origins of HighWire and ICANN, trust in experts (Rowe/Bigtree)
- 18:29-22:36: Public reaction, polarization, and ongoing loss of trust (Rowe)
- 25:41-26:13: The role of skepticism and questioning in journalism and science (Rowe/Bigtree)
- 31:09-34:00: The film’s content, findings of the study, and reaction to its suppression (Bigtree)
- 43:09-48:27: US children’s health, vaccine schedule increase, and plausible links to chronic disease (Rowe/Bigtree)
- 58:28-61:46: Detailed study numbers; stark difference in outcomes for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children (Bigtree)
- 63:56-67:08: The ethical dilemma and tragic scene with the lead scientist (Rowe/Bigtree)
- 75:53-79:40: What Bigtree wants to achieve with the film and movement (Bigtree)
- 80:28-83:57: The importance of never letting science become dogmatic; remaining open to evidence (Rowe/Bigtree)
- 87:17-88:44: Need for institutional accountability and apology (Rowe/Bigtree)
- 92:24-95:59: Demand for evidence-based medicine and full transparency (Rowe/Bigtree)
Tone and Language
The conversation is candid, reflective, and at times clinical, but also deeply personal and emotional. Both speakers use plain language, analogies, and humor to make their points, but the undercurrent is serious—conveying concern, urgency, and a sense of mission.
Conclusion
This episode stands out for its forthright, nuanced engagement with a volatile topic. Rowe and Bigtree urge listeners to stay curious, demand evidence, and recognize the role of skepticism in all fields that affect public life. The episode is both an exposé of a “suppressed” study and a meditation on the values of humility, courage, and free inquiry.
[Watch An Inconvenient Study for free at aninconvenientstudy.com]
For further engagement:
- Reach out or comment on Mike Rowe’s socials with your perspective, especially if you agree or disagree—your voice, like the evidence, matters.