← The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe
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- [00:04]
A
And welcome to another truly delightful episode of the Way I Heard It. I'm Mike Rowe. This one is called Adjacent to Greatness. Technically, I think it's called Thomas Tull Adjacent to Greatness. Chuck, that's how you want to put it in the. That's the way it'll be written. I see. Yeah. Well, it doesn't much matter how you write it. The facts around Thomas Tull and his reason for coming here today are. Are worth really understanding, I think. This hasn't happened before. I've talked to billionaires before.
- [00:35]
B
Yeah, there have been a few.
- [00:36]
A
Frank McCourt. Yeah. Are there any other billionaires? No, I think that's basically it, actually. Frank owned a chunk or all of the Dodgers. And now he owns the parking lot. And now he owns the parking lot. Right. Thomas Tall, on the other hand, has an interest in the New York Yankees and the Pittsburgh Steelers. And if you don't know him from that, you might know him from a little startup called Legendary Films, which he formed some time ago. Sold it, I think, in 2017 for about, I don't know, three and a half billion dollars. He made movies like the Hangover. Oh, yeah. The whole series, I believe. Yeah, yeah, the whole series. Inception, Dark Knight. Yeah. I'm Batman. Yeah. And 300, I think was the first one that came out. Yes, 300. Yeah. What he did in the movie business is really interesting. He figured out a new way to market hits. He told me he wants. Not in this conversation, but why would I spend money? There's a 14 year old kid wearing a Batman shirt. Right, right. Why am I going to advertise to that kid he's coming no matter what I do? Right. And then, you know, there's my mom. I could give her two free tickets and 20 bucks for popcorn.
- [01:52]
B
Yeah.
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A
Not going to do it. And she's not coming.
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B
Yeah.
- [01:55]
A
So early, early on, Thomas figured out a better way to market films and Legendary was born. Yep. Now if you don't know him from that, maybe you know him from a little band he plays in called Ghost Hounds that tours with and opens for the Rolling Stones. I haven't heard of them. Right. But Google them, they're amazing. No, I mean the Rolling Stones. Never heard of them. Oh my gosh, we have such a fun digression talking about the Rolling Stones and a documentary that I can't Recommend Enough called 12ft from stardom, which led Thomas to share the secret to his success, which basically comes down to being adjacent to greatness. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't matter if it's an athlete, doesn't matter if it's Mick Jagger, doesn't matter if it's Christopher Nolan, a famous director. Bradley Cooper, a great actor. Sure, he loves to stay in the shadows. He loves to amplify the greatness around him. And I tell you all this because I ran into the guy accidentally at an energy conference, a summit back in July in Pittsburgh. He introduced himself and said he'd like to chat about my foundation sometime. I didn't really know who he was, as I'm sure many of you don't either, because he works pretty hard at staying under the radar, right? But once you dig in, good grief, this guy has been there and he's done that. And he's serious as he can be about reinvigorating the skilled trades, about getting our workforce back on its feet, about building data centers, which he believes is an absolute essential thing to do if we don't want to lose to China, which frankly, we're on a road to doing right now if we can't turn this train around. So that's what Thomas wanted to talk about. And, boy, do we. What's most interesting to me is that he flew out here to do this. A guy who's touring with the Stones, running a couple of major franchises, one in football, one in baseball, and still up to his neck with a company called Telco, which is investing in all kinds of crazy startups and well established companies that are doing great things. The fact that he would make the time to have the conversation you're about to hear is really flattering to me. And the fact that he's as interesting as he is, I think is going to be entirely delightful for you. Which is why I began by saying, welcome to another delightful episode. Yeah, you know, I love how you bookend stuff. I do try and land the plane when I. Very, very good. Yeah, yeah, you're gonna like him. He puts his money where his mouth is in so many ways. And I'm proud to call him a new friend of mine, Thomas Tall, right after this. Dumb. You may have seen me on the TV here of late talking about Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Jackson. This is because another President's Day is upon us. And I'm a big fan of American history. But it's also because Pure Talk is celebrating President's Day all month while honoring both Lincoln and Jackson by offering unlimited talk, text and plenty of data for just 25 bucks a month. That's a Lincoln and a Jackson. Meanwhile, big wireless. They're celebrating like it's Ben Franklin Day, charging Families. Hundreds of dollars for the same basic service.
- [05:27]
B
That's just crazy.
- [05:28]
A
Ben Franklin wasn't even a president. Here's an idea. Hang on to your Benjamins and switch to pure talk for a Jackson and a Lincoln. Just 25 bucks a month, unlimited talk, text, plenty of data, plus no contract, no cancellation fee. You'll be on the same towers that the big carriers use, so you'll get the same 5G coverage without the inflated price. Go to puretalk.com roe. You'll save 50% off your first month. That's puretalk.com ro to make the switch to an American wireless company. That is truly unprecedented. Oof. Pure talk.
- [06:08]
B
Pure talk. Pure, pure.
- [06:16]
A
Talk. Thank you. Thank you for Jesus. Taylor, you all right? All right.
- [06:32]
B
It's a ruckus.
- [06:33]
A
It is a ruckus. It's a perfect way to start this conversation, actually, with a ruckus. You've made ruckuses your whole life. Thomas. Do you like Tom or Thomas?
- [06:43]
B
Thomas. Tom Toll sounds even dumber than I am. So go with the two syllable thing.
- [06:51]
A
I mean, I agonized over Mike versus Michael for a while because I had friends who were all Michael. And ultimately I thought, well, I'll distinguish myself with a shortened, more familiar moniker. But if I had to do it again, I probably would have gone with Michael. It's a bit more.
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B
And in the opera thing.
- [07:09]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. But that, too was just a weird sort of detour and a long, circuitous kind of Forrest Gumpian journey.
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B
Eclectic's good.
- [07:21]
A
You would know.
- [07:24]
B
Yeah. Whether by accident or whatever, it just keeps things interesting.
- [07:29]
A
What are you doing here, man? And I ask you that because I am familiar with you. More familiar today than I was when we met. In July, maybe?
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B
I think so, yeah.
- [07:40]
A
In your hometown?
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B
Yeah, yeah. In Pittsburgh.
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A
So I didn't know what I was really walking into. I knew it was an energy summit. I got there the night before. I saw the Republican senator. I saw the Democratic senator. I saw you. I saw a lot of big shots at Carnegie Mellon. I saw Chris Wright from Energy. I saw Lutnick from Commerce. I'm sitting between the two of them mouthing off. I met the President of the United States. And for the first time since, I've been sort of paying attention or trying to pay attention to what's going on in our country around the whole labor force thing. I felt like the memo had gone out and some important people had read it. And I was finally in the room with some big shots who were taking all of this really, really seriously. And when you pulled me aside and said, hey, we should chat. Yeah, I said, anytime. And then you showed up here on the other side of the country to chat. Ergo, the question, what are you doing here?
- [08:53]
B
Well, look, I don't do a lot of. Unless people have insomnia and they ask me to talk. But I think seemingly your core issue, which is workforce education, workforce opportunity, as well as your 12 pillars, my sweat pledge is important. And I think right now there's a lot of strife, there's a lot of vitriol in our country. We still have the greatest country by far in the world. And that ideal and concept is worth fighting for. And I think there are some issues that we've run out of time on and need to sort of get together and row in the same direction. And that energy conference was one of the things that, to me, gave me hope you had. Instead of Democrats and Republicans at that event, it felt like Americans understanding that we have a real, both a threat and an opportunity vis a vis our global adversaries who don't wish us well. And in terms of the tech race around artificial intelligence soon to come, Quantum what it's going to take to power that race and how we better get to it. And it just felt like really good energy. And it was in Western Pennsylvania. And I just thought, you know, Dave McCormick did a great job organizing it. And, you know, and I thought it was great that you were there because to my knowledge, you're not a tech or an energy guy, but you're an American guy.
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A
I am.
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B
Like, you're pro and you have this forum to be able to tell people, pay attention to this. This is important. This is going to impact you. And that's the other thing that's super important to me, especially in this day and age with complex issues that don't fit on a bumper sticker. They just don't. Part of, I think our obligation is American citizens that can vote is to be informed and to be informed and to be intellectually curious, not just to hang out with your own tribe who's going to say the same things, but test your ideals. You can have a conversation with somebody that doesn't agree with you. It should sharpen your arguments and perhaps open up your mind and say, I hadn't considered that. I know that's a little naive in this day and age, but we have complex issues that demand our attention. I'll bet on America every day of the week to rise, but I think you have an incredibly important voice in this. And I'm concerned every day about making sure that we still lead the world.
- [11:49]
A
I want to circle back to all of that, but I want to ask you. I certainly, I've heard what you said, but it's the way that you've contributed to the larger discourse that I think is really interesting. I mean, you've articulated, in other words, everything you've just said in the movies that you've produced. You've done it in the music that you make. You've done it with your enthusiasm for the sports franchises you've invested in, most recently the profound humiliation your Steelers exacted upon my poor Ravens just a week or so ago. So how much fun is it being Thomas Tull right now? I mean, I get it. We're in a divided time. The stakes are high. There's a lot to be freaked out about. But you're living a version of the American dream, I think, that most people fantasize about. And it's just so interesting to be three feet from you and seeing all you've accomplished at this point in your life and to be able to ask you, aside from amusing yourself, how are you using all of this media to push the rock up the hill?
- [13:04]
B
Well, first of all, I grew up very poor in upstate New York with a single mom who had me young. Nobody in my family had gone to college. That wasn't really a thing. My grandmother was a janitor in a hospital for 50 years, which I think might make your dirty jobs list all blue collar. And there's a grounding and a worldview, I think, that comes with that.
- [13:32]
A
I don't want to just glance over that. The hospital laundry is a version of hell that I think Dante would put somewhere between six and seven.
- [13:45]
B
I think it makes the list.
- [13:46]
A
It's extraordinary. And if you've never been in one, well, then, you know, there's really no way to paint the picture.
- [13:53]
B
Yeah. And she one of the things I remember that just my grandmother, my mother, who worked two jobs is you can complain about it and you may have a reasonable point, but the cavalry is not coming and it doesn't matter. You either get up and do what you need to do or you don't, and you complain about how all that unfolds. And in my own personal experience, I just don't think that's the direction to go. And then in terms of just going from that to wherever I find myself today, anybody that traverses those waters, that doesn't understand and make intellectual peace with the luck quotient, you're not being honest with yourself.
- [14:46]
A
You've Written a lot about maybe not intellectual peace, but intellectual honesty. You know, it pops up a lot. And what I've seen you say, what do you. What do you mean by that? And why is it as important as you imply?
- [15:02]
B
Well, I just think that, you know, human beings by nature are storytellers. We need to have a narrative. We need to grab onto something that both gives us cultural meaning, historical grounding. This is the way things are. We celebrate things. And those are wonderful. If that bends the wrong way and you fail at something or you fall short, and instead of having honest dialogue either with the folks that you were in it with or yourself, to say, well, wait a minute, where did I go wrong? And sometimes the answer is, did a dumb thing, Preventable, unforced error, dumb thing. Other times you may look at it and say, did everything that you could do, a reasonable person would do, and the ball bounced the wrong way. It hit a rock. What are you going to do? And that's okay, too. But I think to constantly question, and also that know thyself thing, I think is really important, because if you put yourself in a position to be successful, part of that is, I know what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, where I'm going to thrive, where I'm not, and how do I position myself? Hopefully, you know, to be not boxed in because I told myself a story that wasn't true.
- [16:37]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, that's the hell of it, right? The upside of knowing yourself is, it's Kierkegaard. It's the unexamined life and so forth. But if you know enough about yourself to know that you're flawed or to not actually like you, then knowing yourself is. There's really no upside unless you're willing to change. And that's a hard thing, I think, maybe the hardest thing. But how did you change? You're a poor kid from upstate New York. How do you get to Pittsburgh? How do you wind up owning the Steelers? How do you wind up launching legendary. How do you wind up with a relationship with Chris Nolan, for God's sakes, whose talent I'm not quite sure people have fully comprehended? It's impossibly circuitous.
- [17:27]
B
Yes. And none of it planned. To be honest with you. I think my life has been a series of opportunities and being able to see whether you want to call it the angle or a couple of moves deep on the chessboard, to be able to say, okay, well, if I was able to build this or create this relationship, and here's how I think I could. This would manifest itself if X, Y and Z were done. And it's just also always been about doing whatever it takes and meaning it. And I think the tension between two principles that I believe deeply in one is fail fast. If you made the wrong call, whether it's someone you hired, a business you're in, whatever it is, and you recognize that. Look, this one, the deeper I dig, the deeper I get. So there is that tension versus no. I believe deeply in this. And when reasonable people tap out, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to get up again and again and again, knowing which one of those is happening. You know, that's the trick.
- [18:58]
A
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- [21:12]
B
I think it's important because you can have. I think there are. Again, I Think of it as having flexibility around the following. There's base level things that you believe in and you know in your gut, hey, I'm doing the wrong thing here. I'm doing wrong by that person. I'm staring at it and I'm deciding I don't want to do that. You know, folks around me probably make fun of me for saying this, but I always talk about clean uniform. We always have a clean uniform. Don't get dirt on the uniform. Okay, we don't do that. And then there is. You're doing new stuff, whether it's a new business in tech or whatever it is, where there's no roadmap for it, there's no analog because you're inventing it. And then you have to have the elasticity to say, okay, this is new territory, which is going to require some new muscles and new things, but it can't ever violate the foundation.
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A
And where do you feel uncomfortable? And how important is it to be uncomfortable? This is a compliment, even though it doesn't quite sound like it, but I just watched Ghost Towns. I just watched a performance of Fire Underwater.
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B
Okay.
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A
All right. Now this is a band that Thomas plays in that tours with the Rolling Stones. Now, if that's all we were to talk about for an hour and a half, that's plenty. But it's like a parenthetical, or at least it feels like one in your curriculum viate. But for most people, at a glance, you're playing guitar in a band that's opening for freaking Mick Jagger. And I'm watching you as I'm watching this video. You don't sing, or if you do, it's illegal. Okay? Okay. And you're good, but you're. You're not a. You're not out there doing a Keith Richards thing. You're kind of. I'm not going to say you were uncomfortable, but you're standing there doing your thing, doing your part, being like thoughtful about it, and everybody else around you is full rocking out. So what's up with that?
- [23:52]
B
Well, I've played probably since I was 12, self taught. I can certainly read charts and understand some music theory, but I'm not like one of these cats from Juilliard. And for me, playing music is both a joy. I love it. There's nothing like, especially, I write our songs or most of them, and just to watch the audience react to something you wrote is really cool, but it's a struggle. I have to work hard and chase competency. And then I watch other people that are simply gifted Musically. And they're like, oh, yeah, just play. And it drives me crazy. Drives me crazy. But, you know, I love doing it. We've opened and toured with some incredible Stones, my all time favorite band from ZZ Top to.
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A
Why the Stones, man?
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B
Because first of all, they're cool everywhere. They're cool in a biker bar. You know, you go to a Stone show, even the last tour, and there's people there that are teenagers to 80, and they're just cool everywhere.
- [25:02]
A
Yeah.
- [25:04]
B
Who is relevant for 60 years? Not just, you know, oh, that's nice, they're out. But. And if you listen to their lyrics, gimme Shelter is probably my favorite song of all time. I've had the privilege of getting to know the guys pretty well. And you look at what Mick and Keith wrote, Sympathy for the Devil. I mean, go.
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A
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
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B
It. It's. It's educated and polished and well read, but dangerous.
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A
But it wasn't always, like, how much of your feelings for the band required the passing of. Of time. Like, how long did it have to sit with you? Some movies feel that way for me, some books, you know, you read them and you kind of file them away. And then all of a sudden later this, like, maybe the headlines catch up or maybe your own life becomes something different, but like, the relevance of the Stones. Like, for. I totally rediscovered the Stones with. There's a great doc called 12ft from Stardom.
- [26:19]
B
Oh, man, I love that doc.
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A
You saw it?
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B
Mary Clayton. Are you kidding me?
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A
Mary Clayton is the hero of the Stones. Mary Clayton. Good God, man. I mean, she was.
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B
Have you ever heard the isolated track?
- [26:36]
A
Oh, yes, of course we have. Rape, Murder. It's just a shot when her voice cracks at the top. You must have like. So I wrote a story about that. I wrote literally when the way I heard it was a collection of short stories in the style of Paul Harvey's old show. I wrote a story about the call that came to Mary Clayton's home and Curtis, her husband, answered it. And it's like 11 o' clock in the. The boys are down in LA. And she's the daughter of a preacher. She sings in the church choir. And they bring her down to sing this song.
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B
I hope that she doesn't get mad at me for saying this, but three, four weeks ago, I got to talk to Mary Clayton on the phone. Get. Yeah. And that's how I felt. So one of our backup speakers.
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A
Hold on, Chuck, for God's sakes, make a note. Yeah, get him a link. Yeah, he has to see the story.
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B
I gotta see.
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A
Because we did. We went hired, actors, recreations, the whole thing. I mean, I got her in the studio. This whole thing starts because I found the isolated track late one night going down some bottomless YouTube rabbit hole. And I hear that by itself. And there's a cutaway of mix telling the story as they're playing the track. And I've never seen a look on his face like that where that's just.
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B
You hear them, that involuntary. They. So. So I had maybe a 20, 25 minute conversation with her. She was as cool as you think she is.
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A
How old is she now?
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B
I am not gonna say.
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A
Well, I mean, I'm just doing the math. 19.
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B
It's impolite, Mike, but she said she's a huge Ghost Hounds fan, which made my heart, you know, but, yeah, and so we. We actually recorded. We don't do a lot of covers, but. But the gear that they recorded that on was at Sunset Studios, and when they sold it, I bought it. So I have it in my studio and we recorded as close as possible. I mean, we studied every. And had Chanel Haynes, who sang with the Stones on the last tour, and did Mary's part, come in and sing. Just because I. I just wanted to do it.
- [29:20]
A
No pressure. I mean, how'd she do? Crushed.
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B
She's killed. I mean, she's. We were on tour with them in Europe and I heard they. The actress who was playing Tina Turner in London, they were going to bring her in to do the last couple legs because somebody was sick and we were in Italy, and she comes out on stage. It is worth you looking at the YouTube video. She owned the place. And I just sat there, I'm like, all right. And she's incredible. She's a force of nature. And I have enjoyed working with her, too. But just to tell you, if you should talk to Mary Clayton, she lives out here in la. She's sharp and cool and just. And I. I don't get nervous very often because I'm, you know, ignorant. But I'm talking to Mary Clayton and I just. That is the thing about my life that I think is the most surreal. Everything I've loved since I was a kid. The Yankees, the Steelers, the Rolling Stones, Batman, Superman, Jackie Robinson story. I don't know how, but it all showed up in adulthood. And it is surreal. And there's not a moment that I lose touch with. I am on the phone with Mary Clayton or, you know, or I'm walking on stage before this. It's Very surreal. And I do get the joke.
- [31:04]
A
It's very David Byrne. It's very. This is. This is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife. This is what. I think there's something super interesting about the background, the unsung, the out of sight, possibly out of mind. You know, it's the. Well, I mean, for me, that was Dirty Jobs. That was, you know, can you do a show in a sewer? And can you make a hero out of a guy that has never been interviewed before? And can you actually form a construct that would allow him to be comfortable on camera for 12 hours being himself? And the answer, of course, is yes. And when it worked, right, like, when you see that happen again and again, that's why the title 12ft from Stardom, like, jumped out at me. It's like, well, of course. Who's the background singer? I interviewed a guy yesterday who wrote a terrific book called Love Johnny Carson. Right. And the first thing we talk about is Carson's relationship with the guy who pulled the curtain back for him every night. They were dear friends. And like Carson's prep before each show was to smoke a cigarette and talk to this guy. He didn't wander off, forget in his head or do any of that stuff. He was just completely. That was his thing, like, to connect to the guy who opens the curtain for him. And here you are buying the same gear that that was recorded on, and you're interested enough to take this conversation, or maybe I did, and I'm not sure, but we're talking about a background singer, and you're jazzed up in a way that I didn't expect you to be because you had the privilege of talking to somebody on the phone. And we ought to say it. The vast majority of people listening to this right now, they don't know who Mary Clayton is, but 100% of them have heard her, right? They've heard what we're talking about, hopefully.
- [33:04]
B
Felt that, you know, that thing.
- [33:11]
A
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- [34:44]
B
Yeah, and look, I feel like I skirted your question about what is that uncomfortableness thing on. On stage? I know, just to tie back the know thyself. I'm not a. I don't want the spotlight. I want to be the guitar player you can't name in the band. And jumping around all that, that's just not. It's not me.
- [35:07]
A
Yeah.
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B
And it would look weird and you feel weird. Yeah. And instead I just want to make sure I'm, you know, I'm playing everything I'm supposed to correctly, and I'm having a blast doing it. And you know, when you, when you cross that with somebody who has unbelievable natural talent, whether it's Ronnie Wood, who's an insane musician with anything he touches, Mary Clayton, who just give her a microphone and goosebumps, you know, it's all.
- [35:43]
A
Those things mixed direction to her was, I want you to blow the doors off. That's all. I said, sing out however you want, but blow the doors off the place. And she took it as a challenge now not to get too dark. But I mean, the story is the story. You know, she had curlers in her hair. She was pregnant, she lost the baby. That night coming back from that session, she went into a deep depression for two years, she couldn't hear the song without having all of that come back. And so, you know, there's a price for every everything. And what kills me about that story, Thomas, is that I. Not only did I not know her name, I didn't know the price. You know, her whole story is an opera. I mean, the car accident she was in later, I think she. I think she lost a leg, if I recall.
- [36:49]
B
I don't. I'm not. I mean, it's lots of stuff, though.
- [36:53]
A
Lots and lots of stuff. And so, I don't know, we have a tendency, I think, to look at a band like the Stones and we have to put them in a place because that's how they live in Our. In our minds. But what kind of price did they pay? What kind of price did Chris Nolan pay? What kind of price have you paid? What price is demanded of anybody who gets the privilege to stand on a stage and play a guitar or go onto the gridiron and try and block a kick? I can't believe we didn't block that kick. Maybe we should talk about what happened between Pittsburgh and the Ravens and see if we can't find some larger lessons in the last four minutes of that disaster that apply to everything we're talking about.
- [37:36]
B
Well, listen, I have bled black and gold since I was 4 years old.
- [37:41]
A
Here, put that mic right up here, if you wouldn't mind, because I can tell you're about to be interesting. I want to hear every word.
- [37:46]
B
Oh, goodness. You know, to me, as a little kid, watching Jack Lambert, Joe Green, Terry Bradshaw throwing the ball to Lynn Swan, and John Stallworth, it just. You know, my whole life I bled with him. And I had the privilege of getting close with Mr. Rooney, who we lost a couple of years ago, who I just revered. He was the kindest, not a pushover, but just. I just respected and revered him. And what's crazy, there have been three coaches in my lifetime of the Steelers, Chuck Noel, Bill Cower, now Mike Tomlin, and in the AFC north, where you better buckle your chin strap every week. You know, the Ravens are always, from our perspective, in the way, but there is a profound respect because they're physical and they're a great team. Your coach Harbaugh, who was there for 18 years, they just parted, which I was kind of shocked by, but it's. I'd love to tell you that every Sunday, that when I was a fan, it felt like this. And now, my first year in the ownership group, we won the Super bowl in 08, which was.
- [39:08]
A
How does that even feel?
- [39:11]
B
You know, I always think this. So in adulthood, unlike when we're kids, a lot of our accomplishments or joy are complicated. Or they, you know, I, you know, dirty jobs is working, but now you have to do 300 of them. Right. Or whatever it is.
- [39:31]
A
Yeah.
- [39:32]
B
You know, I won. And then the tax bill or whatever. You know, that feeling of winning the super bowl with the team that I bled for, just part of who I am was an undescribable, pure joy. Unadulterated, nothing complicated, Unadulterated, pure joy. I also never forget that, you know, being on the field right after. And James Harrison, our outside linebacker, who's the strongest human being I've ever been around, picked me up by the waist like a child. Yay. You know, he made, in my opinion the greatest play in super bowl history with the interception that he took back all the way. But you know, it is a privilege to be partners with the, the Rooney family and just to, you know, and you, you get to see the grind behind the scenes with these athletes, what they go through. You ask about price, they pay a price and the pressure of it all. And you know, the difference between somebody who makes a living and gets to that second contract in pro sports versus I went up, I checked it out and now, you know, I have, I'm selling insurance or I'm doing whatever I'm doing. You know, it's, it's pretty thin.
- [41:00]
A
But back to this last game, I mean, have you seen a three or four minute conclusion like that? Have you? I mean it was such, Just describe to people really. I mean, Chuck called me after it and was like, dude, did you just. It was one of those things that you looked at and you're like, I need to talk to somebody about this. I just need to talk to somebody about it to make sure I saw what happened. And as an owner being there and seeing that insane whipsaw back and forth, what I just gotta ask, what is that emotional rollercoaster? How tall do you have to be to be on that ride?
- [41:43]
B
I don't know. I didn't qualify apparently. But it's the crazy thing was in that span, the ups and downs, each team looked like, you know, they had it. And you know, we got very spoiled with number seven. As long as we had Ben Roethlisberger, didn't matter what the circumstances were, we had a chance.
- [42:07]
A
You were in the game and you.
- [42:09]
B
Know, post Ben, that happens. Number eight is different. You know, Aaron, he found some magic in the tank, took command of the thing. I still don't understand how Lamar got out of that sack. You know, talk about defying physics. He's a special gifted. You just can't figure out what he did. He gets out of it and looks downfield and lofts the past to Flowers and you think, I can't believe that just happened. He on the last drive was third and seven. Nick Herbig, our linebacker's chasing him to the sideline and he stops and throws the ball away. If he gets sacked there, I think you probably lose 10ish yards. Now it's 4th and 17. I don't know what happened. I'm not even going to speculate because of this crazy thing. And somehow, you know, he got out of reminded Me, years ago. The Steelers and Ravens are playing a really important game in December. Not for the division, but close enough. And we're in field goal position on third down. Suggs comes off the edge, he grabs Ben. He's got him. It's a sack. We're out of field goal range. Ben physically walks him out of the pocket and throws the ball away, and we kick the field goal and win. And I said in the locker room after game to Ben, I don't know how many people know and understand what you just did. So it's always a rock fight with those guys. And once Lively made the catch on 4th and 7 with Ramsey draped all over, that was an incredible catch. And I'm like, well, you know, turned out Boz's extra point. The Ravens got a. Got a hand on a finger on. Caused the miss. So they caused it. And as soon as that happened, in the back of your mind, you have to think, well, the football gods are cruel. And this is what's going to happen, right?
- [44:19]
A
Because the Ravens have the ball. They got, what, three timeouts, and all they got to do is get within range. And they got Lamar.
- [44:25]
B
Yeah.
- [44:26]
A
And so they get within range, and now where are. Do you turn your back at this point? Can you watch?
- [44:34]
B
I did not watch.
- [44:38]
A
By the way, if you're just joining us, this is one of the owners of the Steelers who's simply unable to watch the end of a game. Like, you're biting your nails like any other fan. You're just twisted inside out. He can't believe it because he can't miss. Luke can't miss?
- [44:54]
B
No. Look, he's a rookie kicker, but he's really good. And it's just. It's the Ravens. I mean, this is the way it's going to end. The season's going to end. When you looked at the schedule and you saw that the last game was against the Ravens, you just. Intellectually, you're like, well, that's going to be for the division. So, yeah, no, I did not see the miss. I did not. I just felt the building shake when it went the other way. I thought it was a nice moment that our kicker, Chris Boswell, after the game, put an arm around their young kicker. But, yeah, and especially when you know the guys and you know who's at the end of it, who's fighting back from an injury, it just. You're just steeped in it, not only as a fan, but.
- [45:51]
A
So was that the same unadulterated joy that you were talking about, or was that more disbelief or did you like go through.
- [45:59]
B
That was, that was a mixture of everything because I truly. It took a good minute, maybe 90 seconds because it's not just the season was over, it was done. And you really. Other than blocking the field goal, which is extraordinarily rare, there's nothing you can do. It's not like, look, if it's fourth and goal from the five and you make a stand, that at least there's some efficacy.
- [46:31]
A
Sure.
- [46:31]
B
You know, there's. With a field goal, for the most part, you just kind of feel like, well, if the guy makes it, you know, it's like hitting a free throw.
- [46:40]
A
Yep.
- [46:40]
B
Not quite, but so yeah, it was a range of emotions and you know, as soon as I saw Mr. Art Rooney, the owner, in the locker room afterwards and the guys are, it was joy but also a little surreal. And I just looked at Art and said, you know what just happened?
- [47:15]
A
Here's another scholarship program near and dear to my heart you should know about. It's called Folds of Honor and they focus on the spouses and the children of U.S. military service members and first responders who have fallen or been disabled while serving our country. They've been around longer than Microworks and they've given me something to shoot for with my own foundation. Because Folds of Honor has awarded nearly $350 million to eligible recipients in all 50 states. These scholarships, they're all encompassing. They support private school tuition, tutoring in K through 12 tuition for any college, any postgraduate work, including a master's, a doctorate, any, any professional program. But now they're really leaning in to the extraordinary opportunities available in the skilled trades. And they've asked me to make sure you guys know that the money is there for the kind of hands on training that our workforce needs more than ever. Electricians, plumbers, linemen, welders, shipbuilders, you name it. If it requires skilled training, Folds of Honor can help. And believe me, they've got the resources. The scholarship application window is open from February 1st to March 31st every year. You can apply online@foldsofhonor.org scholarships. You can also donate there to support the families of our nation's heroes. They're doing great work@foldsofhonor.org come into water's fold. What just happened is the question. Because what I'm trying to get at is like what just happens when the song you wrote comes together and you're on stage and you're playing your guitar and you see it happening, you see it coming together. There's magic in that there's certainly magic in guiding a team, owning a team, and some things you can control, some things you can't. So what you're left with is all of the. All of the hope and emotional stuff that any fan would have making a movie. You know, like, how do these things compare? Like when, you know, you've got a hit on your hands, whether it's a sports franchise, whether it's a film, whether it's a song, or whether it's just, I don't know, making your mom proud because her boy did good. Like, these things, you know, they're all variations on some sort of theme, I would think.
- [49:53]
B
Well, and I also think that the 12ft from stardom, all of what you just named, is a lot of adjacency to true talent.
- [50:04]
A
Okay, sure.
- [50:06]
B
And, you know, I always used to say, I think we made five movies with Chris Nolan. And, you know, if you ask, like, oh, what was the collaboration like, I don't know. We made sure his catering was good. I mean, he's Lamar. He doesn't need any. Right. He's. And certainly, you know, in sports, I'm fortunate enough to own a piece of the Yankees. And, you know, it's a privilege to be partners with Hal Steinbrenner and the Steinbrenner family. Same thing with Art Rooney. I mean, these are some of the greatest owners in sports history. It's adjacency. And as long as you can contribute in any way that you can. And that's the way I feel about whatever it is in business. You know, if I can put a team together in one of our companies, and I'm the least talented person in the room, and we're winning, fantastic. That's great. And, you know, I think having that whatever it takes attitude, and also just if you get bogged down in the credit thing, that can be dangerous. Look, you mentioned this before about dirty jobs. I am fascinated about people who do incredible work when no one's looking and there is no functional reward, so to speak. And I think if you really break it down to me, the backbone of our country, you're talking about teachers, cops and firemen and the trades. That is the backbone of our country. It's the education of tomorrow. And certainly nurses and people on the line. And I'm just fascinated. And. And I thought about, even during COVID what was it like to be a nurse pulling shifts and the look of desperation and fear on people's faces. Those are the things that fascinate me. Because the stuff that you just Named it is a. I'm, like, the luckiest. And I get it. I really, truly get it. I'm not clueless and tone deaf that, you know, you know, some idiot gets to do all this stuff. But people who do unbelievably important work that don't get to talk to Mike Rowe on your show, and the best they're gonna get is a co worker saying, yeah, not a boy. Yeah, that's it. And they bring it every day, regardless. That, to me, is pretty cool.
- [52:50]
A
You know, I had this conversation the other day with somebody, and apropos of nothing, what came out of it was this Buds for you was the greatest ad campaign of all time. Because it was exactly that. It was a small thing, a thing, a way of saying thanks, a way of acknowledgement. And that whole thing, my little code over there, I mean, it starts with gratitude. That's the thing. I mean, the number one tenet. I believe I have hit the greatest lottery of all time. I'm alive. I walk the earth. I. I live in America. Above all things, I'm grateful. So if you don't agree with that, that's cool, but my foundation can't help you in that regard. So maybe gratitude then is the. Like, how often do you check yourself for that?
- [53:43]
B
Every day. And the reason is that the stuff that is in my face is surreal. Now, I didn't scratch the winning lottery numbers off, right? I'm not going to be false about. I worked my tail off. I'm pretty good at what I do. And, you know, I give these talks at universities and business schools sometimes, and inevitably, someone will ask what the secret is. And, you know, I always say, if there is one, I'm not in on it. Because many times what people don't want to hear, they want to hear some magic trick, right? No matter what it is, whether it's, you know, what do I need to do in the gym to get in shape? Well, show up every day.
- [54:38]
A
They want the playbook, man. Yeah, they love the playbook.
- [54:41]
B
What they don't want to hear is it's Friday night, and while everybody else is off doing whatever, you're working. They don't want to hear that if you happen to be on a family vacation, you're up in the hotel room on a call and doing stuff, or, you know that if you are doing one of the many jobs that you've celebrated and talked about that by showing up sometimes, I don't mean you're dead sick and you should stay home. But I'm not quite my Best today. But I'm going to go in anyway. And I love one of the things you've got up here. The. I can't quote it directly, but is basically, there's no unimportant small jobs. There's just what you. When young employees, young folks ask, it seems like three months in, they want to be the executive vice president of. And it's great to be ambitious. God knows I was, am, whatever. But do a great job and be indispensable about exactly as John Wooden said, be where your feet are, do exactly with enthusiasm, and do an Excellent job 98% of the time. The universe will notice that. But when it's constantly, I shouldn't be doing this. This is not good enough for me. I'm gonna. Well, you're kind of telling me something about yourself. So. Yeah, I mean, with the stuff that I get to do, it's in my face all the time to be grateful. If you want to call it grounded, it's just like, look, an inch to the left, inch to the right, anything can happen. And now, you know, I'm in my 50s, so we all know people. Unfortunately, now that you get that phone call, did you hear so and so just passed away. And it's shocking and sad and jarring. None of us know where any of.
- [56:56]
A
This is going, but we all know how it ends.
- [56:59]
B
Absolutely. We just don't know, you know, the day, the duration. So if you're unable to say that, look, right now, here I'm here, and I'm clear, and I can get up and walk and everything. We're halfway home.
- [57:19]
A
And that's a Choice. My mom's 88, my dad's 93. They live in a retirement community. There's a bulletin board down in the lobby. Everybody walks everywhere all the time. And this particular bulletin board, it's a big community. There are 2,000 people there. It's just a morning list of who didn't make it through the night. Now, my mom is a humorist in every way, and so she finds great humor in the idea of, you know, there's a bring out your dead joke. It's Monty Python. It's like, let's go down to the bulletin board and have a look. And then they got a place called the Treasure Chest, right. Where people's possessions no longer are needed. They just get donated there. And then people go down. So there's places full of people walking around in the clothing of people who are no longer around with their. It's like this giant thing happening, and it's so poignant, man. But it's no less true than what you just said. It's just back to the whole time thing you just mentioned you're in your 50s. You also said something before that was interesting. You said I was ambitious or am. That's interesting. Are you as ambitious as you ever were? And what happens to ambition? Ambition, like it's not like a pop fly. Right. It's either going up or it's coming down. Right. How do you, how do you talk about, like, how do you stay hungry when you've feasted at the buffet of life?
- [58:55]
B
Well, I, I think, yeah, it's, it's. I think you just pointed in different directions. What are the things when you're all done, you know, and you're sort of laying there. I am not aware of anybody on their deathbed that has said, bring me my balance sheet, I want to look at my financial statements. So the question is, what kind of efficacy have you, have you had and.
- [59:24]
A
Where did you move the needle?
- [59:26]
B
Yeah. And are you somebody that, from what I would call the small circle is, are you a good friend? Are you somebody that your circle would say, yeah, if I call Mike in an inconvenient time and say, I need you, are you there? And then more broadly, if you have the wherewithal to have more impact, whether it's being charitable, whether it's trying to quietly have any sort of effect on things that you think are important as a thought leader or organizer or convener, I think those things are important. I mentioned at the beginning, I think that, you know, we have to be clear eyed about where we are as a country and where some of our international adversaries, where they think this is going to, and that that's not going to be an easy fight at all and it's going to require some sacrifice and struggle. And we look back at what this country has done and the generation that went through World War II. I am in awe of our military, our men and women in the military, what they're capable of.
- [60:43]
A
That Venezuela thing, hell of a thing.
- [60:46]
B
Look, here's the thing. I, I wish that humanity would wake up tomorrow and say, violence is kind of lame. Let's just cure cancer, and that'd be great. That is not what I woke up to this morning. And the only thing I passionately believe is the United States needs to speak in a loud, clear voice. And when we say, here's the bright line, we mean it. And I do think that that exercise and what happened in Iran around the nuclear stuff has at least told the world that when we say it, we do mean it. And I do think that that is extraordinarily important. And I think that you're going to see profound shifts in. If we're not number one in the world on artificial intelligence and quantum and we don't have a handle on space because of many complex things that can happen with the ultimate high ground. These are all things that are going on. And we talked about transformation of the workforce. I think that's gonna be extraordinarily important. And I think our kids that are gonna be. That are being educated today need to have some level of either digital fluency or a trade that they can anchor into.
- [62:19]
A
I mean, forgive me, I'm sure you've been asked this a thousand times, but you do have kind of an interesting vantage point into artificial intelligence. It certainly seems like it's going to impact everything in the room to some degree in general. Good thing, bad thing, should we be scared or does it even matter? You can't put the poop back in the goose. Let's not lose to China. But how do you handicap all that? And think about it.
- [62:52]
B
Look, to me, it's like many human inventions can be used for good or bad. I think that people both overestimate and underestimate its impact. There is not a corner of our economy that artificial intelligence is not going to impact. Workforce has to be ready for that. And those that use it to augment their work and enhance and make it more productive and say, I used to have to search or put these things together and PowerPoint used to take two days and all those things. And then I think when you dream about things like drug discovery, personalized medicine, to be able to find out exactly what it is going on and to be much more precise about that, certainly what we're seeing happen in defense and in the military is profound. The lessons that we're learning in the Ukraine with drones and cheaper disposable weapons and what the implications are both in warfare and potentially, you know, in homeland security, are all incredibly important.
- [64:12]
A
Palmer Luckey told me that our only hope was automation, that we could never catch him in a conventional way. In fact, he sat right there and I didn't fully appreciate it until later. I think he's probably right. I mean, how do you catch up with the shipbuilding? How do you catch up at this point? We have to reset the table, maybe. And if AI can help us do that.
- [64:39]
B
Well, look, cards up. We're big investors in Andrew Palmer's company, so obviously I agree with his statement, we need to pivot from platforms that are very long lead, very expensive into automation and things that will keep us safe tomorrow. But I also think America has to be. Have the ability to make stuff again, complicated stuff. There's a company that I've invested in called Rebuild, which is all American high tech manufacturing. Now It's, I think, 13 companies across the country. We have to be able to make complex things and not offshore our intellectual property and our know how. I mean, if you look at what really built America and accelerated everything, it was our industrial might that allowed us not only to win World War II, but, but to put ourselves in a position that we've enjoyed for the last 70 years.
- [65:49]
A
Yeah. You know, Palmer made this point too, and I hadn't thought of it the exact way. I think most people understand that our ability to pivot from a big muscular manufacturer into a military player happened because we had a manufacturing base in, in place. But it's also pretty important, I think, to understand that what the military did was they made weapons based on the, the manufacturing specs that were already in place. Right. Like we didn't create something new. There are a lot of the things, you know, that we were using to make cars the way we were making them. We used to make tanks. We didn't have to start from scratch. That seems like really important. If you're going to talk about rebuilding the base, you would want to rebuild it in a way that would potentially have a military application, even if that's not the immediate reason you're rebuilding it. And maybe that's a tough sell on the Hill.
- [66:59]
B
Yeah. Look, the other thing, without being Pollyanna, I mean, one of my heroes when I was a little kid is Reagan, President Reagan. To me, he was conservative, but his voice was optimistic. He gave America reason to be proud, to be American again. And I remember at least the feeling. I couldn't intellectualize it as a little.
- [67:29]
A
Kid, but Hal Riney did Morning in.
- [67:31]
B
America and, and meant it was sincere. I never got the, and I know he was an actor and all that, but I never got the sense that he walked off stage and said, I hope they believe that. You know, I think he embodied it. And you know, today the challenge with social media and being able to type in anonymously and say mean things and terrible things and all the things that come with that. Right. That that happened and that's gonna happen. But at the end of the day, we're Americans and I think we've strayed a little bit. It's, you know, it's like if you played pickup basketball with your best friends when you were a kid. Elbows are thrown, things are said, you know, it's all good.
- [68:25]
A
Teeth are loosened.
- [68:26]
B
Yeah, all the above. But when you're done, it's cool. There's not a. And given the seriousness of our challenges, I just hope that our politicians and leaders understand that. Sure, election cycle, you're gonna fight, you're gonna pull hair, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. But in the back room, we need serious adults doing serious governing. And that given the challenges that we have from nations like China, it's going to take our best effort. And I'll bet on us every day of the week. But I just hope that at some point there's. And again with the political violence that's, you know, that to me is a balloon that goes up that you say that's we gotta pay attention to this.
- [69:24]
A
You know, I agree with all of it. I just wonder, you know, there's a tendency, I think, because we're alive to assume that everything's so super special about the time that we're in right now, because everything has led to it and we're somehow the tip of some spear. But I. I mean, is there anything really new in the wide, wide world? I mean, humans have gone through every imaginable emotional feeling there is. The country's been more divided than it is now. I mean, fought a war over it and everything. So, I don't know, it feels different because we're here on the corporal plane, you know, But I guess maybe the Reagan. Reagan was the right man for that.
- [70:14]
B
Right time at that time.
- [70:16]
A
Yeah.
- [70:17]
B
Yeah. Look, there's a difference, I think, between being nostalgic and saying, why can't we? That's an unsophisticated view of the world, but I think to me, it's hoping for some level of optimism. Right. And waking up and saying, look, I believe in this country, and I believe in what we can do and we can fight, but at the end of the day, we're still America. And, you know, I can remember feeling pride after 9, 11 when they all gathered on those steps. And I felt both pride as well as if I were hiding in a cave right now and just shot at the Americans. And I saw that.
- [71:10]
A
Ruh roh.
- [71:11]
B
There'd be a cold shiver going up my spine for what's coming.
- [71:17]
A
These moments, they really do remind me of a pop fly, because it's only for a second is it neither going up nor down. There was one you mentioned, Covid I live up north, north of San Francisco, and two weeks. Well, once the. Two weeks to flatten the curb, once that began, there was such a. My entire neighborhood was so grateful for the nurses and for the doctors that we would walk out on our patios and decks and porches every night at 8 o' clock and howl like wolves. And you could hear it across the bay. Thousands of people. I don't know why, I don't know who started it, but that's what we did. Because we were desperate to express our gratitude for a small cohort of people who were doing a thing that needed to be done. And that was scary to do. And that was when the pop fly was hovering perfectly likewise on the steps of the Capitol, when all of that went away. Likewise after the pickup basketball game, when, yeah, whatever, you know. So I say a lot, sometimes things have to go splat. As an optimist, I hate to say that because I don't want things to get worse, but if they have to, in order for them to get better, like you said an hour ago, better to fail fast, right?
- [73:01]
B
I think so.
- [73:02]
A
I think it was Churchill, right? When you're marching through hell, keep marching. So the hardest thing for me at that energy conference was to say to the President and whoever else was in the room, I'm rooting for you. I want to see reshoring. I want to see the manufacturing base reinvigorated. I want to see a renaissance in all of these things. But look at the workforce. You know, you're going to create 2 million jobs in manufacturing. And we have 480,000 openings this month that we can't fill with our current structure. I don't want to be the fly in the ointment, but somebody, somebody has to look at the math. Five retire, two come in. We've made these jobs, consolation prizes, vocational consolation prizes for 40 years. I don't know. I don't know how the cabinet can flip a switch and suddenly say, oh, okay, where is the workforce really? That's what people ask me. And being a smart ass, I tell them they're in the eighth grade. We can't make that go faster. Unless we can. Do you have any thoughts on how to change the trajectory of somebody entering the trades? How would you reinvigorate the workforce if you were king of the world?
- [74:33]
B
And God forbid that day ever come. First of all, no magic bullet, right? There is no, oh, you simply. That's just not the way the world works. But I think if you stand back and say, when has a workforce Been galvanized. When have you seen people turn their attention to things and put energy in it? What does that require? Well, it requires them to know about it. So drawing attention to requires that there is some level of economic reward and that all of a sudden it's cool. Right. I don't know if you've seen during a lot of sports over the last six months, I have no idea if they're effective or not. But they've been running these build submarines commercials.
- [75:25]
A
They sponsor this podcast, Blue Forge Alliance.
- [75:31]
B
So is that working? I don't know, but somebody's trying, which is good, right? So if you say, here's what the economic reward is, and there's going to be a campaign or light shown on this to say, hey, electricians, that's a sexy thing, okay? We can't win this race without electricians. You're important, right? And then on top of that, I think to give a very clear path, I have your attention. You know about this. Now, here's what you get. If you get there, here's why it's important. So what now? What? What do I do? Well, if you go to this, you sign up, then you're going to go down to the local. If you're going to move the needle and galvanize that kind of workforce, it can't be a, hey, let's just hire them. That doesn't work.
- [76:39]
A
That's right.
- [76:40]
B
So there needs to be a thoughtful campaign put together that is systemic, thoughtful, and the appropriate investment is made to say if this is where we're going to end up. Going like this and running an infomercial isn't going to work. It's going to require a sophisticated plan with resources, but I don't know what the alternatives are.
- [77:06]
A
Not for nothing, I was down on the field at the Army Navy game and one of those build subs ads came up. Giant screen as the planes are flying over and the golden knights are jumping out. So literally I'm watching these guys float to the ground. These guys are building submarines. Everybody around me is like wiping a tear away. It's another one of those moments. Howling at the moon, singing on the stairs. And now you're awash in so much patriotism, you can hear your sphincter slammed shut. You know, it's just like, what the heck? This is incredible. And then the game starts, and then you got a hot dog and a beer. And to your point, like, we move on. We have to find a way to extend that moment. Alex Karp is doing something.
- [77:57]
B
He's a friend oh, is he? Yeah.
- [77:59]
A
Oh, for God's sakes. Well, I sat next to him at this conference and you've got to connect to me because he's, he's doing something and he can't, in my view, he's not in a position to tell the story because he's too close to it. But he's hiring these kids straight out of high school and he's teaching them in Palantir some liberal arts stuff while he's putting them on real world projects and fast tracking and engineering background. These kids are going to have no debt, they're going to have great jobs and they're going to be working for real soon. So when I'm looking around for ideas, that's. I'm thinking like that. How do you break the paradigm and do something completely different? Peter Thiel did it right. He was paying kids not to go to college, do this other thing upset a lot of people. But at least he started the conversation. So I look at that stuff and I look at the licensures and I, I look at certifications and I don't think it makes sense for a master plumber to need to put in eight years to become a master plumber. I think there's a way to fast track that. And I don't know if the unions are my friend or not in this regard. I don't really know. But man, the whole system needs to be grabbed by the lapels and shook and Alex in his way. And his company is doing that and I give him huge credit for it.
- [79:29]
B
And look, one of the. A few minutes ago you mentioned that humans, there's always been strife, right? We've always had trouble. Cuban missile crisis was a pretty good piece of work. One thing I would argue that is different today is the velocity. The velocity of change, the velocity of messaging, of misinformation. Right. Of losing track of the truth. There is a. The truth, sure things that.
- [80:02]
A
Not my truth.
- [80:03]
B
Right. Not your version, all that stuff. I'm sorry, just reject that. But I think all of those things, that wonderful instantaneous communication videos. What you're going to be able to do with artificial intelligence, which does scare me, is making videos that look like Mike Rowe sound exactly like him saying terrible things. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That wasn't spend a week explaining folks, not me, right? So when you talk about again, whether it's pulling this workforce together or coming up with new things, we need new tools because we are in a different time. When you're talking to folks that are well positioned and well meaning, whether you're talking about unions or other places, there just has to be a point where you realize that doesn't work anymore. Now, we can sit together and come up with something that does and let's sit on the same side of the table and attack the, the problem instead of your position or whatever it is. But this is why to me, I'm concerned about how fast this is going to get up on us. And it's not something. When you talk about pivoting the workforce, I don't care how much money you have, I don't care how innovative you are as a country. That is a tough ship to turn. Okay.
- [81:45]
A
Yeah. I'm just thinking of this moment in the Civil War, the documentary where Shelby Foote is talking about the terrible consequence of moments in history where technology outpaces tactics because we don't have the ability to adapt to the new rules at the same speed the new rules are able to be implemented. Which is why at Shiloh you had six dead guys in a row killed by the same bullet fired from a new kind of rifle that had a new kind of range. Right. And so their tactics didn't evolve to spread out. They're still marching in lines and so they're dying like rows of corn. It's that, that's what I see. Everywhere I look, there's a brand new toolbox, you know, and you know, here it is, right? Jonathan Haidt talks about this thing and you said it earlier, it's just AI is just a. It's another tool. So is this phone. So are the social platforms. It's just that it's not, it's not just a phone. It's an arcade. It's a casino. It is a ticket to all the porn my 14 year old mind can imagine. And I can get to it in a heartbeat. Oh, and I know, let's give it to our kids and tell them to take it to school. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. So when I look at that and I hear people telling me it's going to be fine in this other thing, causation, correlation, I get most of the arguments, but you can understand why people are walking around in a, in a heightened state of anxiety. We don't know. There's this moment in Death of a Salesman, you know the play Willy Loman, right. He's got this, he's got uncle, his uncle is Ben. And Ben did well. Ben made a lot of money in gold mines and Willie is tortured by it because he doesn't understand how he did it. To our earlier point, like people are desperate for some kind of playbook. And all Ben can tell him is he says, willie, I went into the jungle with nothing and came out a rich man. And it torments poor Willie. Cause he's like, I get that you went in the jungle. What happened in there? What happened with the Rolling Stones and Mary Clayton? What happened to the Steelers and the Ravens? What happened with Chris Nolan and Inception? I'm still not sure I understand what happened with you and legendary. How did you sell that thing for three and a half billion dollars? You had no experience in the entertainment business. How did you do that? Dude, how did you do that? And the truth is, all you can really tell me in the interest of time is I went into the jungle with nothing and came out a rich man. And the rest of us look around and go, God damn, that's magical and mysterious. And how are we going to figure all this out? And so we got a country filled with Willy Loman and a couple of bends and all these new tools and all these old tactics. It's worrisome.
- [85:15]
B
Or you're part of an elaborate punk episode on me, you know, but yeah, well, look, I'm not sure we can solve it all sitting here, but one of the things I really respect is you're using the platform to be a gadfly and to get people going on this and thinking about it. And look, that's one of the things. You go back to Teddy Roosevelt, the man in the arena and all that stuff. Either participate and grab the rope and help pull because. Just complaining about it, you know, I've never understood that. Like, it's an active participant sport. I think you.
- [86:02]
A
What's the sui generis? You're unique. People call every day to come here. They wrote a book, they made a documentary, they've got something to sell. That's okay. They're interesting and right. Like we're all doing our part in whatever kind of dance this is. You're Ben. You went into the jungle with nothing. You came out rich. You're busy. You could be playing your guitar, buying another team. You fly across the country to sit here and talk to me about this because we had a five second exchange six months ago at a conference somewhere and I didn't even ask you about Telco. But you're running a company now and you're looking for, I assume, other companies that can be improved by embracing a level of tech that you understand. And you're here talking to me so I'd be an idiot if I didn't ask you, how can your expertise be applied to my efforts through that sweat pledge or through Alex Karp's efforts? What can we do to make a more persuasive case?
- [87:21]
B
You know, look, I think you have to have equal parts ignorance and hubris and humility to be able to say, hey, I can help with that. Right. Let me run in there. You know, I wanted to talk because I think this is not only massively important, but right now I have this little thing that always goes off in my head. The only real currency right now is authenticity. Right. Just because I tune out. There are people that are making a great living online by being a personality and all that. And that's. That's great. There's nothing wrong with that, but we need some truth tellers and we need some folks to say, hey, I'm not being a, you know, Debbie Downer, but, you know, this needs to be addressed. And that's kind of how the way I feel about this. And just, you know, you have that authentic thing that you can't. There's no calculus for it or way to prove it. It's just you kind of know it when you see it. And in terms of applying, whether it's business principles, intuition, technical know how, and frankly, the privilege of being able to have the connections to pick up the phone and make something happen and. Cause, you know, I look at what happened where we met in Western Pennsylvania. That was a. That was a moment that was cool what they did. Yeah. And I think on this front, you know, being able to get involved, put your shoulder behind it and say, I knew this was an issue. And instead of saying somebody ought to do something, because that's the other thing that if you work around or you get into some problem solving around the government, I always thought there's 500 people in the next room solving this. There's not. I think that private industry, America at its best is the government working with industry, working with academia to produce extraordinary results. And if you just, you know, continually point out problems and say somebody oughta, then I don't see a lot happening.
- [90:01]
A
Well, there's. Look, there's some green shoots, some. Who said that? Green shoots. Talking about reasons for optimism, reasons for. One of the things I said at that conference was, I've been doing this 17 years. I'm not doing much different today than I was when we started. We had 10 times the applications for work ethic scholarships last year. Well, this year, as we did the year before, Something's tipping. I don't know if it's ads for build subs. I don't know if it's some macroeconomic force. I don't know if Gen Z finally got the memo that the cost of a four year degree is not. Is not going to go away. Whatever it is, it's happening. And I'm hearing from people, man, it's not just companies like Ford or Caterpillar that have big blue collar workforces. It's Wells Fargo, it's Fisher Investments. It's like they're paying attention. I sat in the Pentagon last month, literally in Pete Hegseth's office, talking to their team. They're in charge of this. Or at least in charge of their. Well, look, nothing good is going to happen without them. They need to be a part of this. Maybe some NGOs need to be a part of it. God help us. I don't know. I don't know. But you're so right. It's not going to be one guy. It's not going to be one company. It really has to be. It has to be all of us. And I'm ringing the alarm bell. And you know.
- [91:44]
B
Because you're burdened with knowledge, huh?
- [91:50]
A
Yeah, maybe. And look, I don't want to be one of those guys at Shiloh, you know, shot with the same bullet. I don't want to sit around and wait for whatever other metaphor is about to befall us. You mentioned velocity before. Have you ever seen so much happen? Like, just take this last week, and in real time, right now, we're in the first week of January. I said the same thing a year ago at the same time. Never seen a week like this. Everything. It feels like everything is happening at light speed.
- [92:26]
B
Yeah, yeah. And you know, to sit and deliberate. The world is not allowing you to do that. And so how do you prepare yourself as best you can to react to that? We're all used to gravity. If all of a sudden gravity's off by 15%, you know, and it's. It is truly astounding how things can pivot almost overnight and we get to see it all. You know what I mean? Like, it's because there's camera phones, there's cameras everywhere. There's. Yeah. So how we adjust to that and how we act during these times is going to matter, but it's not going to slow down. I don't see it slowing down.
- [93:22]
A
Do you miss making movies?
- [93:26]
B
Look, I had no background whatsoever in making movies. Legendary was put together because I saw an economic opportunity I always loved movies growing up, but I never. The creative process is phenomenal. Getting working with people that are incredibly talented and telling a story and watching audiences react. That opening weekend of 300 and the number of people. I can't tell you how many times somebody would come up to me at the gym and say, I. I'm in the Marines. And I just wanted to say. And that was a big deal to me.
- [94:13]
A
Did you know about Thermopylae before that?
- [94:15]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [94:15]
A
You knew the story.
- [94:16]
B
Yeah, yeah. That's just one of those stories that, yeah, resonated at a young age and you know, and then the other side of it is the, quote, business of it all. And that stuff, I'm. That chapter, you know, I'm okay with. The creative process was fun.
- [94:40]
A
Again, man, you went into the jungle with nothing and you came out with legendary films. You came out with a relationship with Chris Nolan. Is that what you were talking about before with the adjacency? Like being close to Chris, being close to the Stones? Just being.
- [94:57]
B
I mean, look, that is, you know, that is my life's arc. You know, I'm on the board at MIT and I get to watch true genius at work. There are companies I've backed, you know, Anduril being one of them, that you get to watch people who are incredible do their thing, certainly with the athletes, the musicians, somebody like Chris Nolan and being able to be next to that and hopefully in some ways helping and enabling. But yeah, I mean, you just have to know, know your, Your part and my part is adjacency. You know.
- [95:46]
A
I wonder politics ever.
- [95:49]
B
Oh, God, no. I want our country to get better. I do hope just that as I said before, between. Politics has always been rough and tumble, but we do want our best and brightest running and serving and not worry, you know, that their families are in harm's way. I think we have to all kind of agree on that. But no, not me personally.
- [96:18]
A
So I know you don't have a crystal ball, but how's it all going to end, Thomas? Just tell me.
- [96:25]
B
Oh, my goodness.
- [96:26]
A
Just tell me.
- [96:28]
B
That is the broadest question someone's ever asked me. Hopefully we rise above, it's happily ever after and we all evolve as well. Read, well understood, well adjusted creatures. But I have no idea, man. I mean, it's. But the journey's fun to watch in a lot of ways.
- [96:54]
A
Yeah.
- [96:56]
B
And I can't help but to be an optimist and to bet especially on the generation coming up, you know, that they're gonna take care of Us.
- [97:12]
A
I recommend people go online and check out Ghost Towns. Did you write Fire Underwater? Was that yours?
- [97:20]
B
Co writer on that one. That was a long time ago. That was an early song, but our biggest hit to date is Last Train to Nowhere, which Taylor Sheridan used in his show and everything, so that was cool.
- [97:33]
A
Do know Taylor?
- [97:34]
B
I do, I do. He's.
- [97:36]
A
He's. He's having a run.
- [97:37]
B
He. Look, he's. His ability to draw characters, and especially off the beaten path is. Is pretty unparalleled.
- [97:46]
A
What are you enjoying right now on the tube? Or do you even watch tv?
- [97:52]
B
I do. It's. It's hard to watch. I mean, it's a big investment to watch a series. So between all. Between being gainfully employed and having to get up and do this stuff every day, the sports side and then the boards and commitments and everything, there's not a lot of. Just straight up TV time. So I'm not currently engaged. At some point, I'll watch the last run of Stranger Things.
- [98:30]
A
That I did not expect. Yeah, but I'm waiting for Landman.
- [98:33]
B
Pulsing. Yeah, Landman. The first season. That was fun. Obviously, Yellowstone was great and I love Breaking Bad. I know that was a couple of minutes ago, but still, now it seems like everything's back around. With streaming, you can rediscover stuff.
- [98:50]
A
Well, look, you said it, man. It's our ability to tell a story or sit through one or engage with one that's still for sale. Authenticity. I think the more frequently we see the word artificial in front of more things, the more important it's going to be to feel that authentic exists as well, and hopefully in some equal or larger measure. Having said that, I find you rather authentic, Thomas Tullen.
- [99:23]
B
Well, I appreciate it. All I know how to do is get up and do what pops in here and hopefully, you know, not leave too big of a mess.
- [99:36]
A
So, I don't know, you wandered into the jungle and then you came out and the world was different. Thanks for making the trip out here. I really appreciate it.
- [99:45]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [99:46]
A
Anything you want people to know. I mean, aside from listening to your music is. And rooting for the Steelers. You don't care?
- [99:52]
B
Oh, no. I just think this whole thing is. It's been a great conversation. I enjoy myself as a fan. The podcast and. No, I just. Just want people to be well read, well informed and thoughtful.
- [100:09]
A
Do you know Selena Seto?
- [100:12]
B
Unfortunately for her, I'm doing a thing with her soon. But, yeah, she's a big deal.
- [100:19]
A
She's the reason you and I are Talking right now.
- [100:21]
B
Yeah.
- [100:22]
A
She's a friend of this podcast and Selena called me and strongly suggested that I go to the conference where we met. I was on my way to Germany. It was about the most inconvenient time to do an inconvenient thing. But Selena is one of those storytellers.
- [100:41]
B
She's an actor.
- [100:41]
A
Yep. And so I went and she's gonna be a big part, I think, of telling all these stories. You know, she's terrific.
- [100:52]
B
She's an incredibly talented journalist. And in a day and age when many of them are under pressure to get clicks and all that, she's, you.
- [101:05]
A
Know, talk about 12ft from stardom, man. She was right there in Butler on the day. Front row seat to history.
- [101:15]
B
Yeah, that what we'd be experiencing today had that shot been different, I shudder to think about.
- [101:24]
A
But now we all dodged a bullet.
- [101:26]
B
Yeah, I think that's right.
- [101:30]
A
Anyway, folks, that's Thomas Tall. He's awesome. I'll talk to you next week. If you're done, please subscribe. Leave some stars. Ideally five. Five lousy little star.
- [101:58]
C
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