← The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe
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- [00:04]
A
Hello, friends. It's me, Mike Rowe, with what you call a bonus episode of the Way I Heard It Chuck. This was not entirely planned, although somewhat anticipated, and it's just one of those things that turned out to be meatier than I thought it otherwise might be.
- [00:22]
B
Yeah, well, it was supposed to be a hot take on this particular topic, which is near and dear to all of our hearts here at Microworks. But Representative Riley Moore was pretty representative and he really brought it.
- [00:36]
A
We're calling it I'm Just a Bill because currently the Jumpstart bill is precisely that. Sitting there on the steps of Capitol Hill, hoping that one day it will become a law. I say this as though I'm anthropomorphizing the bill in much the same way our friends did on Schoolhouse Rock once upon a time.
- [00:56]
B
Schoolhouse Rock, man, that was great.
- [00:58]
A
Yeah. You know, I would love to get somebody on the pod, if they're still around, who was instrumental in making Schoolhouse Rock.
- [01:07]
B
Like they played an instrument on Schoolhouse Rock.
- [01:10]
A
That would make them profoundly instrumental. Anyway, yeah, I Am Just a Bill was a terrific song, and it's impossible not to think of it. What Riley Moore has done, he's a congressman from West Virginia. He had this idea to take basically the 529 savings accounts for education. Right. This is something that he was in charge of when he was the. What was he before this? Secretary of Treasury?
- [01:37]
B
I think he did it on a local basis in West Virginia, and now he's trying to bring it national. The Jumpstart program.
- [01:44]
A
Right. What Jumpstart does basically is it lets a tradesperson use tax deferred funds that grow in an account to buy tools to buy a work truck to buy, whether it's scissors for a cosmetologist or welding gear for a welder who's hanging out his own shingle. It's a way to help defray the extraordinary capital cost of becoming a freelance tradesman, which is a huge problem. I've been waiting for somebody to do this for years, and it's come out of West Virginia and the bill looks great. And of course there's some knuckleheads who are opposing it. But for the life of me, I don't really understand why. Because this really does put a skilled tradesperson on, I think, equal footing, or at least their vocations on equal footing with anything that would come out of a four year school. Yeah.
- [02:42]
B
And what I like best about Representative Moore is that he himself is a tradesman. He was a welder and he knows of which he Speaks. And I think that this is going to help people. You know, like a family can start one of these plans and put money away for their child to start a business. Or it also works for trade schools as well.
- [03:07]
A
Well, obviously my slip is showing. You know, I mean, as I mentioned in our conversation, we've got like 3,500 people who have come through Mic works, and all of them would have benefited from this. And the other thing, spoiler alert, because we learned this at the end of our shorter than normal conversation, is that you can, if this passes, if this bill becomes law, you'll be able to take your 529 donations down the road and convert them and use them to purchase the tools that you would need to go to work as a tradesman. And look, man, I take it back. My slip isn't showing. This just is common sense. There's just no way we're gonna close the skills gap in this country if we don't start passing legislation that affirmatively benefits the people who are willing to master a skill that's in demand. That's what this is. Also, I should mention, as I do in our shorter than normal conversation, that this is a first. We've never had an elected official on the podcast who's actually in office.
- [04:12]
B
That's right. Yeah. First time ever.
- [04:14]
C
Yeah.
- [04:14]
A
Yeah. Vivek came on before he ran, Rick Perry, after Rick Perry, after he ran, and of course, Pete Higseth before he was nominated to become the Secretary of War. It was also weird to see Representative Riley there virtually in front of the Capitol. I was just there last week, snowed in and so frustrated with that city, man. They did not clear the streets, Chuck. For five days, those streets were not cleared. Schools were closed.
- [04:45]
B
I don't know what's inexcusable.
- [04:47]
A
Honestly. It is. I'm sorry, Mayor Bowser, but no one spends more money on their citizens than DC spends. It's like $28,000 a year per capita, and they just can't. They just can't seem to clean the streets. It's mind boggling to me. Have I said too much? Maybe too bad. It's a bonus episode. I retain the right for certain liberties. I think you're gonna like this guy. He's a politician. He represents the great state of West Virginia. He's worked a lot of jobs and he's got an idea that I not only think, obviously is worth celebrating, but I've offered my assistance for what that's worth. To see this little bill sitting there on Capitol Hill become a law I think the country'd be better for it. Representative Riley Moore. Right after this. What can you do for the family of a soldier or first responder who doesn't make it home or becomes permanently disabled while serving our country? Well, for starters, you can tell them about a terrific foundation called Folds of Honor that pays for the education of surviving family members. Folds of Honor is awarded over $340 million in scholarships to sons and daughters and spouses of those who paid the ultimate price on our behalf. And these scholarships are all encompassing. They support private school tuition, tutoring in grades K through 12, tuition for any college, postgraduate work, master's degrees, doctorates, professional programs, and now they're really leaning in to the skilled trades. And I'm so flattered to tell you on their behalf that the money is real and it's there and it's waiting. The scholarship application window is open from February 1st to March 31st each year. You can apply online at foldsofhonor.org scholarships foldsofhonor.org Scholarships come into water's fold. Congressman, one of us is seriously underdressed. I'm pretty sure it's me.
- [07:07]
C
One of us is overdressed, and that'd be me. But part of the job here.
- [07:12]
A
Well, look, I mean, looks matter. I get that. In fact, Wait a minute. You're not really standing there in front of the Capitol, are you? That's some sort of fancy effect.
- [07:20]
C
No, no, no, no. It's freezing out here.
- [07:23]
A
So where are you in the world? Exactly.
- [07:27]
C
So I AM in Washington, D.C. right now. So this is like one of the recording studios here in the Capitol.
- [07:32]
A
Oh, well, I literally just missed you. I was there four days ago. I had some meetings in the Pentagon, if I can be slightly mysterious. But of course, nobody could make it in, so I was a block from the Pentagon doing this routine Riverside with, you know, all the muckety mucks who were. Apparently, the streets didn't get shoveled for like, five days or something.
- [07:57]
C
I'm from West Virginia. We just drive through it, you know, you just. It's fine. It'll go well.
- [08:04]
A
Look, I know you're busy. I so appreciate you making the time for this.
- [08:08]
C
Oh, I appreciate you. Thanks for doing this.
- [08:11]
A
Well, look, full disclosure. I've never had an elected official on the podcast before who was currently serving. Like Rick Perry came on after the fact, Vivek came on before the fact. But I try and avoid it, for obvious reasons.
- [08:29]
C
Makes sense.
- [08:29]
A
But, Riley, your idea. Your idea is so good, it agitated me when I read it, because my first Thought was, who in the world could be opposed to this? And of course there will be some. But if you would just sum up what Jumpstart is, how you came to it, why you proposed it, and what you think its future is likely to be.
- [08:55]
C
Yeah. So Jumpstart savings program is something that I actually started in West Virginia when I was the state treasurer. So we have it just in West Virginia as a state program. And the idea behind this, this comes from my own personal experience. So I used to be a welder. That's how I started my career. And through terrible career choices, I'm now a congressman. But the. I'd be making more money if I was still a welder. But in any event, when I got out of trade school, I was working in a mining operation. And then I saw some guys that would come to our job site periodically and they had like a mobile welding rig and they would go to different mining operations. I wasn't in coal, I was in traprock, kind of like open pit mine.
- [09:41]
A
Explain that a little bit more. So it's not bituminous, it's not anthracite, which.
- [09:45]
C
No, so this is. Traprock is kind of aggregate rock. So like open pit mine type stuff. You know, someone would see it and be like, oh, that's like a quartz rock. It's not called trap rock, but it makes asphalt, stuff like that. So big stone. And so I was doing that and I would maintenance all the mining equipment at night. But we'd start kind of like 3 o' clock in the afternoon and then go till 2 or 3 o' clock in the morning and then get the stuff rolling again. But I saw these guys, they'd show up in their own mobile welding rig and I was like, man, I want to do that. I was young, I had no credit, I had no money, and I had no ability to be able to purchase any of these things. So then when I did get into public service, it was something that always bothered me is that we throw all this money and all these programs that are out there to get people into college and help them in college. But there's nothing really out there that's analogous to help people once they get out of trade school and they're in their profession or vocation. And since the trades are so uniquely different. Yes. I mean, we want help getting people into the trades, but what about after, when you graduate? That's where the real expense can be, Particularly if you want to go out on your own.
- [10:56]
A
Yeah.
- [10:56]
C
You know, if I wanted to start mobile welding rig, I needed you know, F350 oxy acetylene cutting torch. I'd buy Miller, not a Lincoln. I like Miller welding products better, but, you know, I'd have to buy all this stuff. You're talking about tens of thousands. If not, you know, well over 100,000.
- [11:11]
A
Well, it could be 100 grand.
- [11:12]
C
Yeah, I couldn't afford that. So how would I help a younger version of me go out and, pardon the pun, jump start my career and get going where I could be an independent operator if I want to be. And so that's why I started this. So it looks like a 529 college savings plan in the manner that it functions because of its savings. And then you're not paying the capital gains tax on the dollars invested in. But differently is that it's not for school. It's for tools, equipment licenses, certifications, and new business startup costs. But this account stays open in perpetuity. It's not like it shuts down. You can continue to put money in and take money out throughout your career.
- [12:00]
A
Okay, so not to get too in the weeds, but I want to make sure people understand the corollary. A529 is a pretty well established account that parents often use to put in money that is tax deferred.
- [12:15]
C
Well, actually, as long as it's applied to your educational expenses, the capital gains taxes will never be paid. And so it can grow tax free. Now, if you decide to liquidate it and go buy a boat or something, then you're paying the tax penalty.
- [12:32]
A
Right. And there is. Well, I'm fascinated by this because, you know, I've got friends on both sides of the aisle, and I got friends in every tax bracket. And my wealthy friends have wealthy ish. You know, put in a sizable chunk for their kids 18 years ago, and that money grew in the markets the same way a lot of other investments did. And it turned out to be way more than they needed, even for an Ivy League education. So, you know, you get a chunk of money left over in a five to nine. You can't just take it out and buy a boat. You could maybe transfer it to a grandkid. Right. I mean, you can pass it on in that way, but you say goodbye to that money for yourself. It can only be used for specific academic endeavor. This is similar in the way you would fund it, but different in the way you can apply it.
- [13:26]
C
Exactly. And one of the things that I brought over from the state version of this, because on the state level, as the state treasurer of West Virginia, I ran the 529 account. And you know what I found? Tons of dormant 529 accounts. Yeah, tons of them. And so what we created was a free rollover program where you could roll over your 529 college money into a jump start account. Because many of these people were going into the trades, a lot of them were. But that money, you know, you paid the tax penalty because it'd be applied to something that doesn't have to do with college education. And so we wanted to allow them to take that college money and put it into a jumpstart account so they could start their career with a chunk of change there and get down the road.
- [14:18]
A
Well, let me tell you personally why I think I love this. And I say think because unless there's something I missed reading through the bill, I've got maybe 3,400, 3,500 people who have gone through my foundation. And my foundation pays for trade school, any two year school, any vocation, from cosmetology to electrician, every kind of mining, everything in between.
- [14:45]
C
Oh, but you know, to that point, this does apply for anybody who does any kind of vocation, just like you were doing. So if it's cosmetology, any of that.
- [14:54]
A
Look, it's not a small thing. I just had last week a guy on the podcast named Win Claybaugh who runs all of Paul Mitchell's hairdressing schools. Now, like, this is the last guy in the world I ever thought I would be interviewing because my foundation is designed to help close the skills gap and I don't spend a lot of time thinking that the country is suffering from a preponderance of bad haircuts. Right. But there are hundreds of thousands of people who enter the cosmetology trade. And you know what scissors are expensive razors, like quality gear, all that stuff. So I'm guessing that you invest in your own career at some point and then you go through the schooling, you get your credential, this money that's growing tax free in this jumpstart account that can pay for your credential, your accreditation, your scissors, your. Your razors, your welding gear, your F350, even if you can make a case.
- [15:58]
C
Exactly. All of those things. All of those things. And what we found in the jumpstart program in West Virginia is that you had some of the short term savers. And now at the state level, we weren't able to do anything about the federal capital gains tax. That's why this is so important to be able to address at the federal level. We could address it at the state, but we couldn't do it at the federal. Federal level. But yeah, you could buy scissors, blow dryers, chairs, whatever, any of those things to start your new business. And not to mention, the newer the tools, the safer you are. I've been on a lot of job sites with the crappiest tools that you can think of, and people get hurt. Sure, you can get hurt. I mean, you could have frayed cables. If you're arc welding, you get electrocuted, any of those types of things. So, I mean, there is a safety thing and a longevity. And so we had two different kinds of savers. The short term guys that were like, I just need to buy a couple of tools here and there each year. And then the people that are actually saving for a big career move or career dream to start some type of business.
- [17:02]
A
That's the key. Man. This is where I get sideways sometimes with labor, with unions, I got no problem with that. But there is a difference between an employee who wants to remain an employee his or her whole life and has that mindset. And that's fine, no judgments. But it is a different mindset to look at the skilled trades through the lens of an entrepreneur, a small business person. And I mean, honestly, Riley, the other reason I wanted to talk to you about this is I've never seen a bill that was endorsed by the Teamsters and the Chamber of Commerce at the same time. I mean, that alone. Forgive me, we're six minutes into this thing. I buried the lead or 11 minutes in. That strikes me as consequential.
- [17:56]
C
I think it is this bill, and I've said this many times, this is not about right to work. It's not about labor unions. It's just about work. That is all we're trying to do here. And there are advantages for labor unions in this as well, things that they could take advantage of. And there's the guys that aren't going to join a labor union. There's stuff for them, too. This is just about getting people to work in jobs that are going to earn a decent living. And you know, in a state like West Virginia, we only got 25% college attainment. And by the way, that's not a bad thing. That's just not our culture. That's just not what we want to do. And they. We literally have a promise scholarship that if you maintain a certain gpa, you can go to college for free in West Virginia. And people just don't want. They don't want to do it. That's not what they want to do. And that just makes sense for a lot of folks to go into the trade. So it's depending on your skill and how you're going to do this. A lot of the pipe fitters and particularly pipeliners are going to work on natural gas pipelines. A lot of those guys will go join unions. A lot of those carpenters though are going to go out and start their own thing. Some of the plumbers are going to go out and start their own scene. Some them of some join a union, some don't. I don't really care. Do it however you want. But what we're trying to do here is get more people back into the trades, particularly as we're going to see this kind of renaissance in manufacturing, I think here in the United States.
- [19:18]
A
Shameless Plug it's been a while since I bragged about my grandfather's whiskey, so if you'll indulge me, let me just briefly point out that we've done it again. We've won another double gold medal this time for the Rickhaus edition, which people are just loving. The barrel strength is still flying off the shelves. The single barrel is a huge hit. The original juice is still popular. And the rye. People love the rye. You know what I love? I love that every time we sell a bottle online it benefits the Microworks Foundation. I'm so appreciative of all the support you guys have given this brand. We're in 35 states now, which is awesome and people are lo Our secret recipe for the perfect old fashioned. Spend 100 bucks@noblespirits.com and you'll get nine orange bitter infused sugar cubes. You just drop it in a glass, muddle it up, pour in the juice and boom. Bob's your uncle. The perfect Old Fashioned. Check it out@noblespirits.com that's k n o b e l spirits.com and use the code Carl. Drop his name. You'll get a tube of those aforementioned orange bitter infused sugar cubes for the Perfect Old Fashioned. Noblespirits.com Soon may the nobleman come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waitin is done we'll take a drink and go. Don't you think to some degree all the trouble in the world, especially with regard to to workforce and closing the skills gap and the cost of a four year degree versus the cost of the accreditation or the credentialing that we're talking about. All these things just seem to be the consequence of painting with too broad a brush I don't know what it feels like in the capitol there, but West Virginia, to your point, it makes no sense to talk about West Virginia and Florida or West Virginia and California in the same breath. It's like the states have personalities, the states have identities. And you know, the cookie cutter advice that's so often dispensed from the hallowed halls behind you seem to forget that. And so there's just a lot of talking past each other and like, when did work become co opted by labor? And when did management become the equivalent of Scrooge McDuck and every rapacious capitalist that ever walked the earth? And how, how do we get ourselves into such narrow little lanes?
- [22:04]
C
No, I. Look, I couldn't agree with you more. And my experience here is this place is filled with a tremendous amount and I don't think I've ever been around as many lawyers. Like everybody's a lawyer. I'm not one, but it's like, you know, there's, there's not a ton that's.
- [22:22]
A
The opposite of a lawyer.
- [22:23]
C
Yeah, there's not a ton of guys who are welders now. I mean, we got some, you know, that have done some other blue collar work in their life and that's cool. I wish there were more and to the point. The state legislature in West Virginia is part of, and it is awesome because it's 60 days and you just sprint through and you're doing all this. But my colleagues, because it is part time, were coal miners, truck drivers, carpenters. I mean, people that are living normal, regular lives and then coming in as a citizen legislator and then trying to fix things in their community. I mean, it just makes a lot of sense.
- [23:01]
A
Well, I mean it's Mr. Smith goes to Washington. It just, I think a lot of people are discouraged about D.C. because it doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like the farmer took a break to go in to, you know, serve the country. It doesn't feel like the dirty jobber took a break for public service and then went back to his or her, you know, gig. I mean, I'll circle back to Jumpstart in a second, but I'm, I'm kind of interested in how a welder, know, working trap mines winds up. I mean, really, what, what's your story, man? How did this happen to you?
- [23:39]
C
Yeah, I mean it was so go to trade school and my mother's family, all of them were welders, all of them union, by the way. And so I ended up going that path. And I remember my Grandfather telling me he's like, become a welder. It's like a bass player in a band. Everybody always needs one. I'm telling you, just do it. And so I ended up going that direction. And he was not wrong. I was never want for work particularly. I mean, I know how to stick weld, mig weld, tig weld. I mean I can do all that stuff.
- [24:16]
A
And so I'd be remiss real quick sidebar. But can you just make a case for welding real quick as a trade, as a way in to that world? What is it about mastering that specific skill? Because I've seen it in my own foundation time and time again. But as a welder, how does it inform your worldview and how does it allow you to make sense of your current gig Finality?
- [24:45]
C
I think I said the best way to put it. What I mean by that is when I was welding and I had several different experiences working in a mine, worked in a machine shop, steel, structural building, buildings, things like that. But at some point we were done, I'd have a finished product and I could look at it and be like, all right, looks good, let's go. Keep on moving down the road. It's hard growing up doing that and doing this job where every problem is like forever. And it's like we make incremental progress on it, which is great, but I'm here because I want some finality in some of these things.
- [25:22]
A
Yeah, look, it's why short stories are so much more satisfying to write than novels. Yet the satisfaction of finishing a thing, plus, you know, a welder told me once on Dirty Jobs, he was like, it is the satisfaction of finishing, but it's also the joy of always knowing how you're doing at every sense and every step of the process. Plus, fundamentally, what are you doing, man? You're connecting things, you're joining things, you're uniting things.
- [26:01]
C
And not only that, you're joining things, you're connecting things. But the inspector's going to show up.
- [26:09]
A
You will be weighed and measured.
- [26:11]
C
Yeah, it will be. And if they are X raying that thing and it's not passing, you're doing it again. And then if you have a few of those, you're in trouble. So I mean, you're not going to half ass this thing. And I think, you know, a lot of these jobs that you're in kind of white collar job, there's a lot of people that just half ass things, right? But you know, if you're building a house or you're building a Building, you're hanging I beams, whatever. There is no half ass to that. You've got to do it correctly. And there's a lot of.
- [26:41]
A
I think we call that full assing, Congressman.
- [26:43]
C
Yes, exactly. But there's a lot of pride that goes into that because welding is a skill. A lot of these trades, these are real, real refined skills that take training to be able to do. And I know people kind of outside of this may. I mean, you put two pieces of metal together, it's a lot harder than that. And I mean actually building something, looking at the blueprints that have been put together by engineers many times who have never welded in their life. So you're having to like interpret some of that design and trying to make it reality when sometimes maybe it won't even be necessarily realistic in the manner that they're trying to get pieces to fit in or, you know, tight corners or something. Did they even think about trying to weld this together? But that's the beauty of the challenge of it all. And then being able to look at this finished product and saying, I did that. There's buildings I still drive by today and I'm like, I built that.
- [27:42]
A
It's just impossible to overstate the pride that comes with craftsmanship. Every day I talk to people who ultimately, when I ask a dirty job or really, what is it, Sometimes it's the money, sometimes it's the flexibility of the schedule. There's always that beat. There's always the idea that you can return to the thing that you finished and it's still standing and you can see it and you can drive over it and point to it or hang from it or, or whatever it is. I wanted to ask you too about your thoughts on trade education specifically. I'm thinking about the credentialing that you mentioned. And I wonder, you know, if you think about what has to happen to really close the skills gap. It's like what, 7 million open jobs now, right? I mean, it's just like, I mean, we've got to reinvigorate the trades state by state, I think. And part of this for me anyway, I certainly want the best trained workforce possible. But should it really take six, seven, eight years to be a master plumber? Is there a way to fast track the credentialing in most of the skilled trades that you would champion?
- [28:55]
C
Yeah, I mean, certainly I think that there could be ways to fast track some of it. Now, some folks want to get rid of all licensure requirements, which I am. I'm not for that. You know, we had something come up in the state legislature, West Virginia, and they wanted to get rid of licensure requirements for like, electricians, crane operators. Like, I'm not standing under that load. You're out of your mind. But yeah, I mean, some of this stuff does take too long and we gotta do something to be able to expedite it to get more people into the workforce. It can't be as long as an undergraduate and a master's degree wrapped up altogether. And I totally agree with you though, because we're leaving a lot on the table because that's where some of these jobs need to be filled. Like you said, the 7 million that are just sitting open right now. And I think the other thing though, that we have to do simultaneously is remove, and this has been happening, thanks to people like you, the stigma around doing these jobs. When I first left the trades to start a white collar job, they looked at my resume and they said, oh, so you went to trade school during high school and finished right after. They're like, what happened? Like, something had to happen for me to go do that. And that's the question that I want to get rid of in all of this. I want somebody to look at it and say, oh, that's awesome. That's cool. You actually know how to do something.
- [30:21]
A
Yeah, right. So how do we do it? I mean, I've got my theories, but as an elected official, what do you see as the role of government? Is there a.gov that is somehow a solution to this thing in whole cloth, or is it always gonna be some version of a public private endeavor?
- [30:43]
C
No. Well, I think that's where kind of your jumpstart.gov becomes part of this. I mean, think about Pell grants and the loan system and, you know, we've piled up billions and billions of dollars of debt on our kids. This is trying to even the playing field here for people who are going into the trades and vocations. We have thrown everything humanly possible at our young people to get them away from the trades over the last 20, 30 years. This type of program is saying, no, this is a. Your government is telling you this is a good choice, this is a smart choice. And we actually put emphasis on how good of a choice this is that we have created this program because you are needed, we need you in this workforce. So I think that is a little bit different, putting the emphasis on it that your country needs you to go do these jobs rather than it was, everybody's got to go to college, go get a degree. It doesn't matter what it is. You can go get undergraduate in Russian literature and end up working at Starbucks and trying to figure out what happened with your life. But that is, I think, us saying this is important to us. It's important to the country. So much so we have created this program where we are going to set you on a path to be successful as quickly as possible. And that's why the term jumpstart, just to your point about licensures, right. This gets people into the workforce faster. If you're an auto mechanic, you get out of auto mechanic school, you have to buy all of your own tools, tens of thousands of dollars of tools that you have to buy to go start your job. Where's that money coming from? They could have been saving for that the entire period of time. Just like a 529. And just like your friends who had those, who had piled up a ton of money on it and now they got the best tools, they could start their own shop. They got, you know, they're ready to go from day one.
- [32:41]
A
Give me a case study. Like not a wealthy family, not a desperately poor family, but just somebody with a couple of kids. And one of the kids is really looking like they have a proclivity for this kind of work. And the parents want to make sure they're well positioned. How does it work? How much money can you contribute? Shelter deferred and so forth?
- [33:06]
C
Yeah. So you can start it just like a 529. So when your child is born, just like you can start a college savings account, you could start one of these jump start savings accounts. But I've seen people do this a couple different ways because I always get this question, well, what if later they want to go into the trades and we had a college savings account? That's why we have that rollover provision. So you could put it in a 529, let the money grow, you have the same options in terms of investment for the jumpstart. But then your child says, you know what? I actually want to go to trade school. And then that money is there, you roll it over into the jump start, and then they're ready to go.
- [33:47]
A
And so, whoa, whoa, Then what possible opposition could there be?
- [33:56]
C
I mean, if there shouldn't be, there shouldn't be. And the funny thing about this idea is that it's fairly simple and the lawyer mind probably didn't really think about it. Somebody who had actually worked in the trades. A lot of reactions that I've gotten on this previously is, huh, I Wonder why nobody thought about that before because it seems fairly simple and straightforward. Like why the hell wouldn't we be doing this?
- [34:28]
A
Well, I'm thinking of my, my earlier reference. My friend right now has three kids. Two of them spent a fair amount of the money in their five two nines and they've got their degree or they're about to get it. The third, as it turns out, was just not going to go the four year route and this one is trying to figure it out. Now that kid's got the same relative amount of money, actually more because none of it was spent on the Ivy League or anything close to it. But he is interested in mechanical stuff. He is interested in this kind of thing. Are you saying that that money right now, as the law exists, can't be rolled into the kinds of purchases and expenditures you're talking about, but it would be if Jumpstart passes in general.
- [35:22]
C
Exactly. So that individual could take that college savings money and say I'm going to trade school, goes to trade school, vocational school, whatever. Say they come out a welder, right, or whatever it is. And now they've rolled that 529 college money into the Jumpstart account and now they can use that money to start a business, buy tools, buy equipment, any of those licenses, certifications, all of those things that I've delineated in the bill so they could go start their career, zero debt and get right going down the road.
- [36:03]
A
I want to ask you to riff on something you mentioned earlier regarding the skills gap and the stakes of closing it for our country. This, I mean, it's super interesting to me because 17 years ago when I started my program, the skills gap was a thing. But there was no national emergency. There was no Manhattan style project thinking, good God, we're not going to be able to compete without the right workforce. It was more about, hey America, there's a lot of opportunity hidden in the cracks. There are a lot of companies that have a straight path to a six figure gig that doesn't require a four year degree. And you probably don't know about it because of those stigmas and stereotypes. So let me help you, right? That's why it was called Microworks. It was supposed to be just very small, one person at a time. And so the conversation around opportunity and work, it was very intimate in that sort of capitalistic way. Now all of a sudden it's like the maritime industrial base needs 400,000 welders, electricians and CNC operators to build our submarines. The whole AI race, the whole Data center thing. It's half a million electricians. It's a totally, like, from a marketing standpoint, from a positioning standpoint, you know, column A is, hey, get over here. There's an amazing opportunity that you're gonna love. Column B is, holy shit, man. This is a problem with a capital P for everybody. Which one of those things is keeping you up at night right now? Both from a West Virginia representative standpoint and as an American who still gives a damn about the country?
- [37:53]
C
Well, yeah, I mean, certainly the second one certainly worries me. And I've met with shipbuilders about that very issue that you've mentioned. And it is a, we are in trouble. Like, we have got to do something. And to me, just, frankly, I think the whole globalization thing has caught up with us. We have offshored all of this stuff for so long, and now we have seen the frailty in these supply chains and also that it does cause a national security risk. Having our supply chain stretched so far overseas for these critical end items that need to be created here in the United States. Is that, yes, it's a, holy crap, what are we going to do? We need 400,000 guys in a shipyard. It has to move faster, like, much faster than it is right now. And, you know, our biggest peer competitor out there, our adversary, China, they get it. They get it, you know that there is a deterrent effect in having a massive manufacturing base and an ability to build things on scale.
- [39:05]
A
So how do we grab the country by the metaphorical lapels and shake it without scaring it? Because it's so easy to alarm and, you know, the constant political back and forth, it's exhausting. But it doesn't change the fact that I'm rooting for the President. I want to see reshoring, reinvigorated. I want to see more manufacturing. And the 2 million new manufacturing jobs he's talking about, I love, but I can read the BLS like anybody else. There's 480,000 open positions in manufacturing today.
- [39:43]
C
Yeah, right.
- [39:44]
A
So it's like, you know, I was in a room with him and a bunch of other big shots a couple of months ago, and this topic came up and I, you know, I'm the guy who has to say, I'm with you, but I just don't understand where you're going to find the workers unless we reinvigorate all of this. I mean, state by state by state, but certainly on a national level, too. So I don't want to repeat myself, Riley, but that's why I Wanted to talk to you. I just. This, to me feels like an affirmative, unassailable thing that at the very least elevates the trades to the same level as a four year degree. And the fact that, I mean, there are some people out there who oppose it, I think for the same reason that they would oppose any kind of incentive that allows people to save money on their taxes. Not to make it too political, but.
- [40:37]
C
Right.
- [40:38]
A
But man, if you're not for this.
- [40:42]
C
I know, and I think that's why you've seen the Teamsters and some of the other unions are going to support this thing. And it's the same reason the Associated Builders and contractors, the right to work guys support this, is that everybody sees the gap. They want to get more people in the door and we've got to do something to even the playing field for the guys in the trades and vocations and gals. And so that is, you've done a great job on this, you know, talking about taking away that stigma. Look, there's a lot of folks come out of here with a four year degree making 50, $60,000 a year, quarter million dollars in debt when they could come out of trade school making six figures, no debt with a program like this that will get them right on their way.
- [41:28]
A
And many of the aforementioned aren't even working in their chosen field.
- [41:33]
C
No, no, not at all.
- [41:35]
A
That's the real tragedy of it. Look, when you talk about the stigmas, I'll tell you what I caught a lot of grief for a couple years ago when the conversation was headline news about forgiving student debt. And I said, look, personally I'm very uncomfortable with that, but if you're going to do it just for grins, are we also going to have a conversation about forgiving the capital cost of the F150 and the tools and all the stuff that had to be assumed by the relatively small team of people who built your house. Right?
- [42:11]
C
Yeah, yeah, okay. Exactly.
- [42:14]
A
And if you put folks in a corner with questions like that, their bias becomes revealed in a way that really isn't flattering and they get angry and then.
- [42:26]
C
Yeah.
- [42:27]
A
And so, I mean, are you running into that now and what has to happen for Jumpstart to become the law of the land? And how can I help?
- [42:37]
C
Well, I just keep talking about it is how you can help just kind of continue to elevate the conversation awareness of the bill. But I've been pushing this, just got it introduced recently. And I think how we can get at the law of the land if we here in the House do a reconciliation part two, which we're talking about, that was then called the one big beautiful bill. We're looking at doing that again, part two. And I have pitched this to leadership as what should be part of reconciliation part two. And you know, look, I was able to roll in there though, with my, with my endorsements and saying, look, we got the Teamsters, associated builders and contractors. I mean, we got everybody here. And I think we're going to get some democrats on this bill here very shortly because they're looking at it as well, they love it and they're like, yeah, why wouldn't we do this? Why wouldn't you do this?
- [43:27]
A
Yeah, don't take this as advice. I would never give it. But if I were, I would say put a face on it, you know. Not mine. Not yours.
- [43:37]
C
Yeah, not mine.
- [43:39]
A
But, you know, show me the 20 year old kid who's got his welding thing or his electrical thing and is ready to go and is starting out and show me the bill. Like what's he got to do now to buy those tools, like really make it real? I mean, I'll tell you, man, I. You tell those geniuses behind you in that joint that I got 3,500 people who we gave roughly $17 million to to get trained to work in these jobs. They are all. They at some point struggled with this exact thing. Nobody. I mean, college kids. Yeah. You talk about the cost of books and people just clutch their pearls and gnash their teeth and hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars for textbooks if you're in a law school. This is tens of thousands of dollars, maybe 100 grand to get going.
- [44:36]
C
Yes.
- [44:37]
A
It's just. We just have to make it real, man.
- [44:40]
C
Exactly. Exactly.
- [44:43]
A
Quick sidebar. Tell me when you have to go. I know you got a state to run. You got a couple minutes?
- [44:47]
C
Yeah, a couple minutes.
- [44:49]
A
Okay. Mining rare earths, polymetallic nodules. Are you up to speed with what's going on in that world in West Virginia?
- [45:01]
C
I'm a little. Obviously we've been talking about it for a long time because we get it in the mine runoff. We have a lot of rare earth minerals and we do have rare earth minerals that are co. Located in coal deposits. Yeah, we've been trying to get people to come in and they are looking at getting it out, but anytime you mention coal, everybody kind of freaks out. But the rare earths are there.
- [45:24]
A
Yeah, I'm just, I'm talking more about these fact. Here's one here. This is these things, they're on the bottom of the ocean. They're hundreds of.
- [45:34]
C
I don't know about this.
- [45:35]
A
Oh, well, that's why I was at the Pentagon. I got sucked in to this conversation. And I think it's going to be. I think we're going to live to see, probably later this year, something along the lines of metal independence. Like energy independence.
- [45:51]
C
Yeah.
- [45:52]
A
These things are packed with cobalt copper, manganese, nickel, and they're at depth, right. They're four or five miles down. But they reckon it's a 16, $17 trillion industry and the tech now exists to get these things. So just as a miner or a guy at least spent some time around it, I think you'll probably be amazed and amused to see what's coming because if I remember right, I think the president signed an EO back in April that sort of really. It was like a starting pistol. So the mining thing is back in the headlines, underwater, collecting and harvesting all this stuff. I think it's going to be something you're going to wind up in a committee on in six months.
- [46:44]
C
Well, I hope so, because look, that's another one that we got to beat the Chinese on rare earth minerals. But just like you said, we had the starting pistol go off, which I think my folks are shooting a pistol at me right now. Tell them.
- [46:59]
A
I'll let you go. I appreciate your time. I love what you're doing and, you know, if I can be of use, I'm at your disposal. But we'll push this out in a meaningful way because for the life of me, I just don't know who would oppose.
- [47:14]
C
Mike. Thank you so, so very much, especially with your voice on this. I think we're going to be in good shape. And I will keep you updated because I am dedicated 100% to getting this done. I mean, this is. This is my life experience. I gotta. Gotta help the next guys.
- [47:30]
A
Riley, good on you. I don't know about the tie. I don't know what to say. But if the congress thing doesn't work out, it's good to know you have a useful skill you could fall back on. Thanks, man.
- [47:42]
C
Hey, thanks, Mike.
- [47:43]
A
Say hey to everybody on both sides of the aisle. I'd appreciate it.
- [47:46]
C
I will do that.
- [47:47]
A
If you like what you heard and even if you don't, won't you please, won't you please, pretty please? Pretty please subscribe well, I hate to beg and I hate to plead but please, pretty freaking please, please. Subs oh, please Subscrib.
- [48:17]
D
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C
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