470: Mark Malkoff—Love Johnny Carson

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe – Episode 470: Mark Malkoff—Love Johnny Carson
Release Date: February 10, 2026
Guest: Mark Malkoff, comedian, podcaster, and author
Main Theme: Exploring the life, influence, and enduring legacy of Johnny Carson, as recounted by Mark Malkoff’s exhaustive interviews and research for his book Love Johnny Carson.

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep dive into the world of Johnny Carson, as seen through the lens of Mark Malkoff’s new book, Love Johnny Carson. Mike Rowe and Malkoff have an energetic, wide-ranging conversation about Carson’s impact on American culture, his unique hosting style, stories from behind the scenes, and the complicated but deeply human nature of his legacy. Malkoff recounts his journey of interviewing over 400 people connected to Carson, from comedy legends to unknown staffers, exploring Johnny’s career, friendships, quirks, and the sense of nostalgia and community that The Tonight Show created.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Makes Mark Malkoff’s Book Unique?

• Malkoff is a lifelong Johnny Carson fan, despite being too young to have lived through Carson's heyday (03:00-06:35).
• The book compiles stories and reflections from over 400 interviews, providing both a compendium of Carson’s life and a cultural time capsule.
• Mike Rowe:
  “You’re not the only guy to write a book on Johnny Carson. But you’re the only guy to write one like this.” (07:22)
• Malkoff’s obsession led him to uncover not just stories about Carson, but deeper questions about fame, television, nostalgia, and Americana.

2. Johnny Carson’s Process and Persona

• Carson’s backstage ritual was to protect his energy—arriving late, mingling just enough, focusing intensely on performance (09:09-11:39).
• Malkoff:
  “He would protect his energy… the staff said when he would arrive… sparks would be flying off of him.” (11:01)
• Despite the apparent ease, guest-hosts and other comics universally found Carson’s job to be much harder than it looked.
• Carson’s secret was making the work “effortless”—never letting the hard work show to the audience (12:18-13:23).

3. The Tonight Show as a Cultural Touchstone

• At Carson’s peak, he represented stability and comfort to America, especially during turbulent times (14:01-16:22).
• The show brought families together, gave voice to new ideas, and was a nightly ritual for millions.
• Carson remained apolitical on the surface but was thoughtful and subversive in his guest choices and jokes, hosting a variety of viewpoints while never sermonizing (15:59-17:43).

4. The Power and Risks of Bookings

• Carson launched many careers (comedians, actors, musicians) often by taking risks on unconventional or unknown guests like Tiny Tim, Bob Uecker, and Ellen Peck (27:21-31:46).
• He insisted on authenticity:
  “He would not put anybody on unless he was sure they were the real deal.” (28:17)
• The most memorable moments were unscripted; Carson was a master at rolling with live surprises, especially with unpredictable guests and animals.

5. Nostalgia and the Shared Experience

• The podcast explores why moments like Ed Ames’s tomahawk throw became legendary—these shared media experiences bonded generations (32:08-36:28).
• Rowe and Malkoff reflect on the loss of this shared cultural memory in today's fractured entertainment landscape.
• “It makes me laugh for all the reasons we say. But it also reminds me of my granddad with tears coming down his face as he tried to describe it.” – Mike Rowe (36:11)

6. Behind the Curtain: Carson’s Humanity, Contradictions, and Generosity

• Carson was sensitive, competitive, simultaneously generous and guarded, often helping friends and staff quietly and preferring to keep his good deeds private (45:17-55:55).
• Malkoff’s research upends the “cold and aloof” narrative—most people close to Carson remember him as loyal, deeply funny, and sometimes fiercely private.
• He left $180 million to charity, much of it quietly:
  “He would just like, he didn’t want credit… and Johnny wasn’t like that.” (55:34)

7. Late-Night Politics, Rivalries, & Grudges

• Stories of Carson’s complicated relationships with Joan Rivers, Dick Clark, and others—marked by loyalty, sensitivity, and sometimes long-lasting grudges (58:09-63:47).
• While generous with praise and opportunity, Carson could also be wounded by betrayal or disrespect, holding those close to him to high standards.
• Example: His falling out with Joan Rivers was due to lack of openness and broken trust rather than competition itself.

8. Carson’s Standards and Approach to Interviews

• Valued genuine conversation over over-rehearsed bits; best interviews happened when pre-interviews were thrown out (29:23-30:52).
• He respected the intelligence of his audience, refusing to “trick” them with plants or phonies on stage (69:18-70:17).
• Favored conversation and surprise:
  “Carson was really good though, at playing to Nebraska. But then he would be really sophisticated enough to play to the cities.” (74:11)

9. The Power of Curiosity

• Both Rowe and Malkoff agree that curiosity drives good storytelling and authentic interviews (55:47-56:45).
• “Everything I’ve ever done that’s been successful with, that I’m proud of, is curiosity.” – Mike Rowe (55:47)

10. Why Johnny Carson Endures

• Even 30 years after leaving the air, Carson’s model for late-night, approach to guests, and comedic sensibility remain influential (31:46-79:37).
• The show was not just about him, but about the audience—Carson was “an avatar for the country,” holding up a mirror and bringing people together (16:23).
• The “comforting presence” of Carson is something both Rowe and Malkoff see as missing from modern culture (78:50-79:37).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Carson's Talent:
  “Every page [of the book] answers it to some degree or another.” – Mike Rowe (09:36)
• On Launching Careers:
  “You can’t be on the show and still be unknown.” – Mike Rowe (50:39)
• On Nostalgia:
  “It makes me laugh for all the reasons we say. But it also reminds me of my granddad with tears coming down his face…” – Mike Rowe (36:11)
• On Contradiction & Humanity:
  “It's just sometimes on the same page in your book, you've got this weird juxtaposition between sublime confidence...” – Mike Rowe (45:17)
• On Curiosity:
  “He was curious, just like you are curious. Curiosity is the key.” – Mark Malkoff (55:47)
• On Podcasting as the New Platform:
  “I think Carson would love the podcast world because it would let him do even more of what he was so good at doing.” – Mike Rowe (82:21)
• On Loyalty and Generosity:
  “If Johnny was your friend, he was your friend…If he was hurt, it was over.” – Mark Malkoff (87:56)
• On The Book’s Larger Meaning:
  “It’s not really about Carson, in my view, you know, it's about the reader and where the reader was and what the reader can remember and triangulate and share.” – Mike Rowe (41:46)
• Mike’s Parting Praise:
  “You really are a great example of why I wanted to do this podcast…you have a white hot burning category interest that's unique. You're credible and your knowledge on your subject is encyclopedic…” (110:15)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

Start–06:35: Introduction, context about the book and Malkoff’s obsession
07:24–08:18: What makes this book different (400+ interviews)
09:09–12:47: Carson’s backstage process and energy management
14:01–17:43: The Tonight Show’s cultural importance, Carson during national crises
27:21–31:46: Stories of iconic guest appearances and risks
32:08–36:28: Ed Ames tomahawk story and why it endures (shared nostalgia)
45:17–55:55: Carson’s contradictions, generosity, and off-camera life
58:09–63:47: The Joan Rivers saga and loyalty vs. betrayal
86:34–89:59: Surprises from Malkoff’s interviews—how Carson’s friends really saw him
90:06–91:42: Malkoff’s podcast roots, the scale of his original research
103:04–105:56: Debunking “mob hit” myth from Bushkin’s book, getting Carson facts right
106:43–109:23: Reflections on the legacy of the book, Malkoff’s approach and fulfillment
109:23–Episode End: Final acknowledgments, praise, encouragement to read Love Johnny Carson

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Conclusion

Tone & Takeaways
The episode is warm, nostalgic, probing, and peppered with humor and showbiz anecdotes. Rowe and Malkoff use witty banter, deep knowledge, and a mutual love of story to unpack both the myth and the human behind Johnny Carson, making a case for why his legacy as America’s late-night host still matters.

The conversation’s heart lies not only in Carson’s story but in the memories and emotions his life and show stir in those who experienced them—even vicariously. Malkoff’s book is lauded not just as a biography, but as a vessel of collective nostalgia and a testament to fandom, curiosity, and the enduring power of entertainment that brings people together.

Transcript

[Mike Rowe]

And here we go again. It's me, Mike Rowe. It's the way I heard it. My guest today is Mark Malkoff. If you don't recognize his name, you are certain to recognize the name at the center of the terrific book he has just written, as given away by the title of this episode, Love Johnny Carson, which just happens to be the title of the book. Of the book. It works out great. This kid Mark, he does love him some Johnny Carson man. Yeah, he does. And he's not old enough to, like, have really lived through the heyday of him. Yeah. And yet he has written a book that I'm just going to shamelessly recommend right now here in the preamble. I'll do it again in an hour and a half from now when we wrap up our conversation. But I mean it. This book, there are a lot of books out there about Johnny Carson. This one is different. This guy Mark, he's a standup by trade, but he had an obsession with Johnny Carson ever since he was a kid. You know, his dad loved him, his family loved him, and like millions of people, it was just a big bowl of warm milk for him every night before he went to bed. And unlike most normal people, Mark never got over it. And so he decided a couple of years ago that he was gonna scratch what itched and went on a series of in person interviews with over 400 people, most of whom you've heard of. Sure. To get at the nub of the thing, to answer the question, who is Johnny Carson? Right. And holy crap, this is interesting. Yeah. And he really nailed it. And he mentions a lot of these names as he talks about it, but the book, like you said, for I'm listening to the book, and what stuck out to me was that it, like, immediately took me back to when I was like 12 years old, sitting in front of the TV late at night, up later than maybe I should be watching. You know, people like Flip Wilson and Jerry Reynolds. Oh, my God, the devil made me do it. The devil made me do it. You know what? Here's the thing. The book works on its own. You'll hear me liken it to drinking from a fire hose because there's so much content in it and it's all so much fun. But under the surface, there is this other thing. And it's the thing you just talked about. It's the shared memories of this show helmed for 30 years by a guy who. I don't know that there's anyone that's ever been more famous, really, than Johnny Carson Fair. And he lived at a time when we only had three or four broadcast choices. Right. At a time when, you know, the whole country was watching one of three things. Right. Every night. And so we're galvanized. Our memories are informed in a universal way by the Tonight Show. Yes. What's interesting about Mark and I called him a kid. He's not a kid. He's in his 40s. But he just went for it. And I think mainly to amuse himself, just tried to get this monkey off his back by getting people to answer the question, who was the real Johnny Carson? And what comes out is such an easy to digest, honest love letter to a time and a guy and a sensibility, and in some ways to the country, you know, because it really touches on a lot of things that as you read, you're gonna chuckle and smile and nod and say, I remember that. I remember that. Yeah. It's like a time machine, right? Yep. And look, make no mistake, that's what all good books are. They are time machines. They can transport you sometimes to a fake world. Game of Thrones, you know, Lord of the Rings, they. They can take you anywhere. This one takes you to a place that you'll actually remember. You were actually there. You shared a lot of this, and maybe some of it you've forgotten about, some of it you've probably never heard before, but all of it is really fun. What a great guest. Kudos to you, Mr. Producer, for finding him and convincing him to fly out here to do this. It was super hard, super hard to get him. To nail him down. You had to answer the phone and everything. You know what? You take a break while we take a quick break. But when we come back, it's Mark Malkoff. The book is called Love Johnny Carson. And like all fine tomes, this one lives up to its name. You know how you can tell if a product is a truly great Christmas present? It's when people don't wait for Christmas to give it. That's the deal with Aura Digital Picture Frames. Every December, you'll see them at the top of hundreds of different gift guides. Literally hundreds. Along with countless five star reviews from customers who are not merely satisfied, but proud owners of multiple frames and enthusiastic givers of the very same frame. This is the real selling point, I think the fact that most people who get one wind up giving one. That's what happened to me. I got one as a gift, then I gave half a dozen as gifts, and then I got another one for myself because I really do love the Thing. There's really no better way to share pictures with friends and family. And everybody agrees. From Oprah to wirecutter. No easier way, no more affordable way. No better gift for any occasion than an Aura Digital picture frame. Because right now you can save $35 off their best selling Carver mat frame. That's the one I have. By using Code Mike when you check out at auraframes.com promo code mike to save 35 bucks. Terms and conditions [e-mail] a u r A U R A U R A frames.com/Mike. Is it true, Mark? You flew all the way in from New York just for this?

[Mark Malkoff]

I did.

[Mike Rowe]

I'm so honored, man.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, I'm going back. Are you kidding me?

[Mike Rowe]

No, I'm not.

[Mark Malkoff]

I'm excited.

[Mike Rowe]

I bent down last night to pick up my dog and something in my knee clicked and it really hurt.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

[Mike Rowe]

And I was about to go out and do a bunch of stuff, and I decided it'd be best to sit still. Chuck had sent me your book. It arrived the night before. So because my knee hurt, I sat down and I read 3/4 of your book.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, wow.

[Mike Rowe]

And then I finished it just as you walked in.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, I walked into your office as you were finishing it.

[Mike Rowe]

Actually, that's my partner's office. I don't have anything here.

[Mark Malkoff]

You're work on that.

[Mike Rowe]

I'm like a carpet bagger. I come down once a month to do this thing. But look, I'm taking the scenic route to say you're not the only guy to write a book on Johnny Carson.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's right.

[Mike Rowe]

But you're the only guy to write one like this.

[Mark Malkoff]

Thank you. Yes, that's true.

[Mike Rowe]

This is Chuck. You read some. Oh, yeah. I'm a third of the way through drinking from a fire hose. Yeah. Am I right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the stories just keep coming at you really quick. So this guy Mark, who's sitting across from me, he's a comedian by trade?

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[Mark Malkoff]

Comedian, writer, podcaster.

[Mike Rowe]

Okay. You did something very savvy because as you know, you're in a very noisy world. You are in a knife fight in a phone booth.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, man, I didn't know that. But yeah, I know what you're saying. Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

So what have you done? You have identified the object of your obsession, affection, from your youth. And you have interviewed everybody in this town, it seems over 400. 400 interviews. And you've gotten what really amounts to a kind of compendium about Who Johnny Carson was.

[Mark Malkoff]

It was an accident, though.

[Mike Rowe]

But how many great things are accidental?

[Mark Malkoff]

Listen, I follow my curiosity. You're a curious person. Johnny Carson was curious. I thought I'd sit down with maybe a few people at the most to get my questions answered. And it turned out everybody wanted to talk about him. Friends, people that never talked publicly all wanted to talk. I don't know why.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, let's get into it though, because, I mean, look, I have a theory about why I would want to as a viewer, but I don't think this book works. 20 years ago.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, you're probably right.

[Mike Rowe]

He had to die and he had to be gone for a while. And then the country and the town and the industry had to like, do some sort of gut check to start to think, really, how do we feel about this guy? And really, what did he do that changed things?

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. And how much people miss him today? I mean, all the late night hosts still talk about Carson. I mean, over 3 billion YouTube views on this man, still the gold standard in everybody's mind. And we're still talking about him. He hasn't been on the air in three decades.

[Mike Rowe]

Why you. And before you answer, let me just make sure the. This is the last.

[Mark Malkoff]

Sure.

[Mike Rowe]

Not the last compliment, but the last point I want to make before we really dive in. Your book starts with a simple question. Who was Johnny Carson?

[Mark Malkoff]

That's right.

[Mike Rowe]

And every page answers it to some degree or another. So, I mean, I don't want to just go through your whole book, but rather than ask you who Johnny Carson was, let me ask you why he's stuck in your crawl to the degree.

[Mark Malkoff]

He does for somebody that was that famous, that dominated American culture for 30 years, that was that iconic. There were very few stories about what went on behind the scenes at the show. I didn't know I'd get into Johnny's life, but I had all these questions from what it was like being on the show. Who was holding the curtain open for Johnny? I was with that guy, by the way, and what's his name? Irving Davis. And Johnny would be. Because, you know, I had a day job with Letterman and Letterman before the show. Nobody talks to him before he needs silence. Johnny's back there joking with everybody, smoking a cigarette up until here's Johnny. So it was just to hear those stories, like what actually went on behind the scenes.

[Mike Rowe]

See that, that's such. I mean, I am so interested in process. Right. Every now and then I'll go out and impersonate a speaker and I'll be Backstage and there'll be somebody cueing me. And like little moments like that people don't think about. But it's a very conscious choice to decide, am I gonna go away? Am I gonna sit quietly and really get in my head and collect my thoughts? Or am I going to pretend that I'm just walking into a room to talk to some friends.

[Mark Malkoff]

He would protect his energy. He would only get to the studio maybe an hour or two before, where Letterman and a lot of people were there all day. Only because he knew if he was around people it would affect his energy. Mike, he was doing an hour and 45 minutes in New York and then it went down to 90 minutes. Eventually 60 minutes. The staff said when he would arrive an hour or two before the studio, sparks would be flying off of him. Cause he'd be so excited. One of them said when you shook hands with him, it was like shaking hands with a nuclear reactor during the show. I mean, he completely paced himself like a quarterback starting on Sunday. I mean, the energy was everything. No lunches. That was his rule on a tape day would take away his energy. So he saved it for the show.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, it took a toll. I know New York was what, 62 to 72?

[Mark Malkoff]

That's right.

[Mike Rowe]

He was a young man. He was living, as Hemingway said, all the way up.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, there were some wives here and there. There was some tough, tough nights that Ed McMahon helped get Johnny home.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, but the energy thing is so interesting. I think most people can understand why it would take so much energy to keep a 90 minute live show on the air. What they don't understand is how he was able to make it so effortless. And what a head fake it is for people to go in and oh, I'm just gonna guest host.

[Mark Malkoff]

That was it. People thought it was easy. And people would call up Johnny and say, I had no idea. Carson would watch the show at home. He said he'd watch it sometimes. He would study his performance. He'd be home watching Arnold Palmer trying to guest host the Tonight show or Kirk Douglas and just be cracking up. That they would think. And people, even comedians like Chevy Chase in 1986, called Johnny and said, I had no idea how hard this was. I'd never done a monologue. And then a few years later, I guess Chevy Chase forgot. Cause he did his own show on Fox all 26 episodes.

[Mike Rowe]

Oops.

[Mark Malkoff]

Johnny actually tried to talk Chevy out of it. Cause they were poker buddies, Was Steve Martin, Barry Diller, Carl Reiner, a bunch of them and said, chevy, you really Want to do this five nights a week. But it was brutal. I mean, people. One of his competitors, Carson's competitors, said it was more exhausting than shoveling snow for eight hours doing a 90 minute show. I mean, that's what he. That was his. And Shanling, same thing. Gary Shandling says it's murder.

[Mike Rowe]

I mean, yeah, but you know, for the audience, the last thing you want to do. I don't care if you're watching your favorite rock band or your favorite comedian or a talk show. You don't want to see the technique.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's right.

[Mike Rowe]

You don't want to see the effort. You don't want to see the sweat. Really. I mean, that to me is what stage presence really is. Your ability, especially through a camera, to make the viewer comfortable.

[Mark Malkoff]

Listen, Frank Sinatra is one of the coolest in terms of performers going out there. You don't see him break a sweat. And his daughter told me before he hosted the Tonight show and during his concerts, he'd be backstage almost getting sick from nerves. I mean, everybody's different. But again, like so many pros, he walks out there and hits his mark and he's Frank Sinatra. But before that, whatever it takes to get you to that place. I mean, and some people really tortured themselves.

[Mike Rowe]

What did he mean to the country in your estimation, when he was at the height of his power, when he.

[Mark Malkoff]

Was 25% of all of NBC's prophets and people were watching every night as they went to sleep with this guy. I think it was stability. I mean, there was whatever was going on in America. There were so many tragedies. The guy was always a steady rock. In 1968 especially. I mean, he was friends with Robert Kennedy, with Bobby Kennedy. They lived in the same building. Bobby Kennedy would go to Carson's office and suddenly Bobby Kennedy's assassinated. And Johnny a couple of nights later does no monologue and no curtain. And he just has. It's like four or five people. And they just talk about his friend Bobby Kennedy. A few months prior to that, Martin Luther King Jr. Loses his life. And Carson comes out a couple days later and just talks about. Martin Luther King shows a clip he had just been on with Harry Belafonte's guest host, which was. Carson was responsible for that. And they did a tribute with Sammy Davis Jr. And Diana Ross. And during all those times, Vietnam, Carson was a constant. And people.

[Mike Rowe]

And how often was NBC up his ass to. I mean, I know when Belafonte came on, they were very scared. They must have been horrified.

[Mark Malkoff]

They were scared. Carson calls up Mr. Belafonte and said, I want you to guest host for a week. And he's like, do you know what this means? He said. Carson said, oh, I do. Because Carson. You wouldn't know Carson's politics, but he was very much against the Vietnam War and was more in line with Belafonte than not. And Mr. Belafonte had all these people at NBC who were terrified. They said, okay, okay, you're gonna have Martin Luther King on Mr. Belafonte, but you're not gonna talk about race, are you? And he said, no, we're gonna talk about opera. And it was all these people that were so scared. But Carson was really good about putting people in the chair debt with different opinions. I mean, he had everyone from Billy Graham to Madeline Murray o' Hare, the most famous atheist. So he wasn't afraid of really strong ideas, but he really did like to put people that shared his politics. He'd like to give this seat. But again, we didn't know how he voted. And he was very careful about that.

[Mike Rowe]

My memory of it, which is just, you know, one man's memory. But he, like, you knew you weren't gonna get a lecture, you knew you weren't gonna get a sermon. He wasn't gonna shake his finger at you. But you also knew that he had beliefs and ideas and opinions, but it just felt first and foremost, beyond anything else. He was there to entertain me.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's right.

[Mike Rowe]

You know, he wanted me to laugh, but at the same time, he was living in the same world as I was. And so he kind of knew when to hold a mirror up and to be an avatar for the country. And he knew, like, he just knew where the line was. And I just make that point because it sure. It feels to me like his contemporaries today maybe don't.

[Mark Malkoff]

It's just a very different time. I mean, Carson thought, these people are going to bed with me at 11:30. They want to be entertained. Person before made Jack Parr biggest thing in TV controversy. Some was real, some manufactured. Suddenly cry. Carson said, no, this is entertainment. And in the beginning, people, the critics, Carson's dull, he's bland. And it really took. There were rumors he was going to get replaced for two years. And, I mean, the guy couldn't get his own bathroom at NBC in his office. He had no leverage. So once he got leverage and he got ownership of the show in 1980, he let NBC have it. And rightfully so.

[Mike Rowe]

So go back. I bet most people don't. Certainly don't remember. Cause it was a long time Ago. But he started on a, on a talk show.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, I mean, he started. He had a game show, who do youo Trust? For a bunch of years. And then before that he had a local show on NBC in Los Angeles. And then Red Skelton, this Gentleman, a very popular national show, had a concussion and said, you have to get that Johnny Carson, boy. And Carson was his biggest break. Within two hours, he was in front of a national audience for the first time hosting a show. And I mean, this is a guy who from the time he was 14 in Nebraska, had been performing. I mean, he'd been doing magic non stop. Then triloquism. I mean, Dick Cavett told me he met Carson when he was 12 years old. He was a junior magician and met him in a church basement in Nebraska. Carson was in his early 20s, still a star for Nebraska. He was on the radio. And yeah, this guy could have easily stayed in Nebraska and had a great career. But his ambitions, I mean, when he graduated, the day he graduated, when he was 17, he graduated early, hitchhiked to Los Angeles. First thing he does gets a star map, goes to Jack Benny's house and hangs out Benny's house. And he's waiting for Benny to come out, which he didn't. Then he goes to get. He enlisted in the Navy, but wasn't officially in the Navy. Goes to the uniform store, dresses as a naval officer and goes to the USO shows. It's everyone from Orson Welles. He dances with Marlene Dietrich. And then he did get arrested because they asked for his papers and he did not have them and his aunt and uncle had to bail him out.

[Mike Rowe]

But his enthusiasm, yes, for performing, right. And his basic curiosity as a human seemed to inform virtually everything he did. I don't know how I think anybody can fake anything for a while. Yeah, I don't think you can pretend to be a curious person for 30 years. Dumb. It's not the answer that leads to enlightenment, it's the question. I forget who said that. Einstein, maybe. Someone very smart. For sure, because it's the truth. Doesn't matter if you're looking for your soulmate or just trying to hire the right person for the right job, your success in either endeavor will depend entirely upon the questions you pose. That's why ZipRecruiter incorporates a series of very insightful screening questions to help you home in on the top candidates faster. As the number one hiring site in America, they learned a long time ago that the right question posed at the right time is the best way to separate those candidates. Who might seem viable but aren't from those who are. This is just one of the many reasons why ZipRecruiter is unquestionably the smartest way to hire. And one more reason why you should try their service for [e-mail] RO I've used them. I love them. I'll use them again with just one posting. You'll see who's been active and you'll see what all of ZipRecruiter's other filters can show you about the person you're thinking about hiring. So the real question is, what are you waiting for? Try him for [e-mail] Roe that's ziprecruiter.com Roe the smartest way to hire he.

[Mark Malkoff]

Didn'T want to have dinner with the A list celebrities afterwards. It was always astronomer Carl Sagan, it was Jim Fowler, zoologist, who went on the show a lot. There's a gentleman for Population Control, Dr. Paul Ehrlich. And those are the people.

[Mike Rowe]

Population Bomb.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes, and Carson. This was a book that nobody was buying. And he went on Carson's show and it sold millions of copies. I mean, Carson, he would always call it the author slot. He'd be falling asleep in New York and there would be these people that would come on. I mean, it was really revolutionary. People like Ellen Peck came on, I think in 1970, maybe the late 60s. And it was a book about how women don't necessarily have to have kids and be married. And Carson said the audience, it was like the audience wanted to attack her, but he wasn't afraid to put new ideas out there.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, look, this goes back. The thing that I like about it, your book, I mean, is that it functions as a portal into a lot of different lives, which the Tonight show did as well. You know, it just gave us a little look. It was like the shallow end of the pool. And of course today, if you want to get in the deeper end, you can pick up your second screen and go deep. Now you mentioned Ehrlich and this struck me too when I read it in the book. Paul Ehrlich, for those of you who aren't up on 50 year old bestsellers, wrote a book called the Population Bomb and Carson gave him a lot of press. The book sold like crazy.

[Mark Malkoff]

18 appearances. People would call in with death threats, people would write in with death threats. People were. And Carson wasn't afraid of it. He kept putting him on because Carson silently agreed with him.

[Mike Rowe]

Didn't want a bodyguard, but carried a.

[Mark Malkoff]

Gun yes, Nickel plated gun. He really tried. I mean, he drove himself. Ed McMahon had the limousine. Here's Ed, license plate. Thought it was ridiculous. Ed would be. Wouldn't have a desk. He'd have a Barca Lounge. And he'd be getting the manicures and pedicures and Carsons just roll in his eyes. I mean, this was a guy from Nebraska who was bringing a brown paper sack lunch and was just as middle America as you can get. Again, didn't want the bodyguard, but did. Never had to use the gun, I have to say.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, that's good.

[Mark Malkoff]

But Ehrlich, you're talking Ehrlich.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, so Ehrlich. Now, that book had a huge impact on Bill Maher. Bill Maher today has been on a tear for years, talking about the fact that there are just too many people on the planet. Now, in the fullness of time, you've got Elon Musk and a long list of other people who are credibly saying that the greatest threat we face as a species is the population collapse. I'm reading this, you know, and all the different things I read. And I'm thinking, what would Carson say today if he were alive and saw that book essentially being debunked in real time? To be that confident, I'm not talking about Johnny, I'm talking about Paul. But to be that confident and that wrong about a thing that consequential. Maybe that's why we die, because you don't want to live long enough to see just how wrong you can be.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, I mean, that was Johnny's thing. He put people with, like, theories and a hypothesis. Some were true, some weren't. But he wasn't afraid to really put this stuff out there. And I mean, people, the narrative is this guy wasn't political. At the same time, Nancy Reagan called the show twice and demanded joke stop.

[Mike Rowe]

Because Ronnie doesn't dye his hair.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes. And then Johnny the next night said somebody very influential called in, phoned me. I'm not gonna say who. And I know for a fact now that Ronnie does not dye his hair, but he does bleach his face. That was it. And then the second time was in the 80s, early 80s, when Johnny and Saturday Night Live were doing drug jokes. And Nancy Reagan personally phoned and said, no more drug jokes. I'm gonna launch Just say no. And they stopped doing it. So, I mean, I mean, everyone from Jimmy Carter's mom was upset with jokes to the Ford administration. Whoever was in power, Johnny was gonna give it to them. And again, you Couldn't tell what side he was on. But at the end of the day, I would like to think. And it seemed that everyone was laughing with him.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, he gave it to them. But it was still funny. Yeah, it was still in the context of a joke.

[Mark Malkoff]

They weren't mean spirited. I didn't think he doesn't dye his.

[Mike Rowe]

Hair, but he does bleach his face. Come on. That's just so. You know, There was an 8 year old in him, basically. Right. As much as he was a fan of big ideas and smart people like Sagan and science, he was still a child. I mean, he liked that silly, silly stuff.

[Mark Malkoff]

Absolutely. The sketches would show that and the guest. I mean, he liked various different types of people and stuff, but yeah, silly. Him and Ed were. Or him and Burt Reynolds having a shaving cream battle. This is all impromptu. I mean, an egg fight with Dom DeLuise and Carson. I mean, didn't Burt cut his tie? Yes. One of the first times that he was on, you know, Burt Reynolds. It's always the comedians that get the credit for Johnny making the career. But Burt Reynolds, I think was the first time he guest hosted, which Johnny, during his first or second appearance said, how would you like to guest host? And Reynolds was known as a dramatic guy and goes out there and gets deliverance because of it.

[Mike Rowe]

John Boorman.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes. Was watching and said, I want this guy. And Reynolds life changed. And then he's on with Helen Gurley Brown and Burt Reynolds with Carson and that's when they come up with this idea. I think Johnny came up with it, that he was going to do this play Girl type for Cosmo. Yes. And Reynolds said at the Academy Award that year, he became a household name because of that centerfold, because of Johnny Carson. He said he counted like five jokes and he knew that. That's when he arrived. And that was all Carson.

[Mike Rowe]

But for Burt Reynolds to lean over with a pair of scissors and cut his tie like, you don't touch Johnny Carson.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's what they would tell them. Yeah, you don't want to do this. This isn't Reynolds as a rebellious person. It broke every rule.

[Mike Rowe]

So what does Johnny do when you break a rule? Is there a sliding scale? Does it depend who you are?

[Mark Malkoff]

I think it depends on who you are. He was having people in his home and he expected people to act a certain way. I think if people were talented enough and did it in a certain way, it would be okay. Like the Don Rickles thing was so controversial in 1965. You think about insult comedy now it's so ubiquitous. But Carson had to take three minutes in 1965 and explain, okay, you don't know who this next comedian is. He's gonna make fun of me, but it's okay.

[Mike Rowe]

But it's gonna be okay.

[Mark Malkoff]

We're allowed to laugh. And it was decided behind the scenes that Rickles could come out. He would make fun of Ed McMahon and the bandleader sketch Henderson. They would see Johnny laughing, and then it would be okay to insult Johnny. But Johnny, it was the first one that ever put him on late night. Everyone was way too afraid to risk it. So he definitely went against what traditional booking would be.

[Mike Rowe]

What other risks did he take that for the time were hugely consequential, but by today's measure might be like, you know, who cares?

[Mark Malkoff]

I think maybe Anita Bryant, the singer, I mean, she was in Florida with anti gay legislation, and Carson, I mean, was just in the monologue, just was like, just going after her with barbs. I think that that might have been the late 70s. That might have been one. That maybe went against his audience. But they went with him on that. That might have been one. I'm trying to think.

[Mike Rowe]

Tell me if this is if I'm imagining this. So, like, he didn't want too much shtick and his guests. If you went too far with an act and it felt even if it was funny, my sense was, if it wasn't authentic, got off my set. Which is like, why, like, Tiny Tim was so interesting, you know, because if I remember right, Carson wasn't sure that was it.

[Mark Malkoff]

He would not put anybody on unless he was sure they were the real deal. And he was. Listen, everyone in Carson's show, except for one person who just passed away. Craig, 10, is the talent coordinator. No one wanted Tiny Tim on. Craig put his job on the line. The conservative crew thought this guy, I mean, Tiny Tim was so. His hair was long, tiptoe through the tulips guy. Yeah. And Carson really wanted to know, is this guy for real? And it wasn't until at the very end that Carson no, this guy is for real. And then, you know, 45 million people a year or two later tune into the wedding, second to the moon landing power of Carson, and made this guy a star. The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Everybody is a Tiny Tim fan. Bob Uecker, late 60s. I talked to Bob for an hour and he told me when he was on, Carson was so skeptical. He was a former MLB player because.

[Mike Rowe]

He was so funny. Exactly. He was funny. You're not allowed to be that funny.

[Mark Malkoff]

Athletic the staff's like, he wasn't a player. It's like he had to see baseball cards, tops cards. And had to see articles that this guy was really a ballplayer. But, yeah, he could have been a professional comedian. And that's another thing with Euchre inserting guests. They would throw out the pre interview. They'd always have it. But if it was Rickles, if it was Buddy Hackett, it was just a conversation like this.

[Mike Rowe]

See, that's why I'm gonna ask you about that.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Cause this has been. This been up my butt for many, many years. Whether it's the Today show or Good Morning America or the Tonight show or Leno, all of them. There's always a producer who calls me the night before to talk about what we're gonna talk about. And it's so demoralizing. Because when you do that, well, I mean, it's kind of like take two. Take two is another word for a performance. And it's not a conversation. How can you call it a conversation if a producer calls you the night before and you script it out? And yet that's always informed this format. Even Carson.

[Mark Malkoff]

Carson had it, but a lot of times he didn't stick to it. I mean, I can't tell you how many guests. He would throw it out back in New York. Also, the writers would give him ad libs for jokes, but he wouldn't. He'd go with it sometimes, but most of the time on his own. And he was usually right. But the best interviews, the most famous things are when he threw everything out and was just having a conversation with the person and it would go. I mean, sometimes he would put on. Now it's. Everyone's so obsessed with a list, celebrity and social media, how many accounts. And he would put on people that weren't even famous. He would put them on the first guest before the big movie star. I mean, the potato chip lady, this potato chip inspector from 1960, she's 65 years old in Indiana, and she notices as she's inspecting the potato chips that they're in the different shapes. And Carson puts her on the show.

[Mike Rowe]

What shapes specifically? Like faces.

[Mark Malkoff]

Bob Hope looked like Bob Hope, different objects. Puts her on. And it was, I think, the most requested clip. And she made her a star. I mean, she started traveling across the United States, went overseas, and Carson, in his brilliance, you know, he never made fun of the guest. Merv Griffin made the mistake of making fun of Tiny Tim. The audience turned on him. Carson was. His rule was, I'm gonna make My guests look good no matter what. If they get the laugh, good for them. That was Carson. And Carson did script a bit, she didn't know it, where Ed McMahon distracted her, and then he bit down on a chip, and she almost had a.

[Mike Rowe]

Heart attack because she thought he just bit Bob Boba.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes. And then he reveals, no, I have my own chips. And it made every anniversary show. But that was Carson. I mean, he was absolutely. For somebody that was doing that show, I mean, I think he did it best. And even again today, looking back at him 30 years later, it's still the model on how to do one of these shows.

[Mike Rowe]

You know, before there was a VCR or anything, time shifted or DVR or anything like that, I lived next door to my grandparents. And I remember seeing my granddad cry with laughter as he was describing what he saw on the Carson show the night before. And so frustrated that he couldn't show it to us. But it was Ed Ames.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, yes.

[Mike Rowe]

Throwing the tomahawk.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. I sat down with him in Beverly Hills.

[Mike Rowe]

No.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. He was in his 90s.

[Mike Rowe]

Explain to people who he was and what happened. Because that. That. I mean, that weird little moment. I didn't see it live, but my granddad did. And then later, I saw it on a special.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

And it made me feel closer to my pop.

[Mark Malkoff]

Sure. No, I mean, my dad's the one that got me into Carson. A lot of people bonded with their families over Carson. It was something. The end of the day, you could all come together. So I'm in Beverly Hills with Ed Ames. He was known as a singer, and he was then on a show, Daniel Boone, I think, on abc. And in the beginning, he throws a tomahawk, but it's trick photography. It hits a tree perfectly. And he said, mark, I did not know how to throw a tomahawk. It was decided that Johnny and him were gonna take turns throwing at a wooden cutout of a cowboy. And it was right before the show. They try to tell him, this is how you throw a tomahawk. So he throws the first one, then it's Johnny. They're gonna go back and forth. So Ed Ames throws it. This is 1965. And it hits the crotch area of the cowboy in Carson. In his brilliance, Ed Ames goes to retrieve it. He's kind of a bit embarrassed. And Carson grabs him by the arm and holds him back. Jack Benny mode kicks in, which is, we're gonna let the silences play. The laughs built. To this day, it's still considered the longest sustained laugh in the history of television with a studio audience. And Ed Ames told me he went home that night and he said to his wife, the funniest thing happened, but NBC's never gonna air this. And Carson, in his brilliance did two things. One, he told NBC, you are airing this. And the second thing is Carson asked for a copy and he kept it in his desk, a kinescope. And he didn't realize that NBC would erase the first 10 years, almost all of the first 10 years. And that's why he had it in his desk. So that's why that moment there's the image.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, look at that.

[Mark Malkoff]

I mean, it's quintessential Carson.

[Mike Rowe]

Not just a cowboy, a sheriff. Every year that actually takes it to another level.

[Mark Malkoff]

Every year on the anniversary show they would play this. A couple years, Johnny thought, you know, it's overdone, we're not going to do it. And then they would get. People are outraged. You have to do this every year. And then Carson would do it. But yeah, that was.

[Mike Rowe]

But Mark, why? Here's a question. What if high schools were the first step in career readiness? Instead of a four year waiting room that everybody has to sit through, that's what K12 is doing with their career and college prep program. It's a radical but super simple approach to practical education. I'm talking about tuition free online public education that prepares students for lucrative careers in construction, healthcare, cybersecurity, just about any field. With K12's career and college prep, you get exactly that preparation for industry certifications that students need while they earn college credits. Along the way, they're learning how to work. In other words, while they're still learning how to learn, whether they want to head to a university or jump straight into a high demand trade, K12's career and college prep works. It gives them something a diploma can no longer guarantee, like a head start. It's practical, it's smart, it's long overdue. Give your student the opportunity to explore the right fit for them with K12's career and college prep. Go to K12.comRoe learn more. That's the letter K the number 12.comRoe the letter K the number 12. Like why every year did people want to see it? Really think about it.

[Mark Malkoff]

I think Carson's being a reactionary comic. I mean that's what his biggest laughs are by far. Him being a reactionary comic and just letting the laughs build.

[Mike Rowe]

That's why it was funny the first time. But what is it about so many of these images and so much of this tape, Is it nostalgia? Is it vert schmaltz? Is it?

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, that's a good question.

[Mike Rowe]

I mean, I think for me looking at this clip, it makes me laugh for all the reasons we say. But it also reminds me of my granddad with tears coming down his face as he tried to describe it to me when I'm, I don't know, what, 13 years old or something, which, by the way, how old are you?

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, I'm in my 40s. As we tape this, as we record this.

[Mike Rowe]

You're in your 40s?

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

What's your secret, man?

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, right.

[Mike Rowe]

Younger than Springs. We record this.

[Mark Malkoff]

If this is after January 21st or after. Put me up a decade, but. Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, I'm only asking because I was born in 62.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

And I was born when he took October 1, 1962. Right. So that's when he went on the air in the Tonight show in New York. He was always in my mind as a kid, but he was still a young man himself. You had to rediscover all this.

[Mark Malkoff]

I did. I was 16 when I went off the air and it was watching thousands and thousands of hours of Carson and just trying to do as much research as I could.

[Mike Rowe]

I don't want to put you on the couch necessarily, but I do need to understand because whatever you're going to tell me is going to resonate with plenty of people who are listening. So I'm going back to that weird kind of why. What was it your dad?

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, my dad got me into it. My dad went to the show in 1968 and would tell me who the guests were that had Carnac the Magnificent and just got planted that seed and just got me into the show as my introduction to show business. He would do primetime anniversary shows. He'd be with kids, he'd be funny, he'd be funny with the animals. I talked to Joan Embry, I talked to Jim Valor. I mean, he talked. He was with the comedians like Dangerfield. Rodney Dangerfield would do 50 jokes. Most comedians did 25 jokes. Rodney did 25 stand up, sit down with Johnny, another 25.

[Mike Rowe]

He loved it.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. He was such a powerhouse. So to hear all those behind the scenes stories, but my dad was the one that got me into it. And again, there was just something this mystery on what is going on behind the scenes. Who is Carson? What is he like behind the scenes? And there just, there weren't any answers. So that's why I started just talking to people. But again, I didn't think it would last Eight years doing a podcast about Carson. I didn't realize that everybody.

[Mike Rowe]

You literally did a Carson podcast for eight years.

[Mark Malkoff]

There were people that I didn't understand why they would want to talk to me. Like, for example, Jimmy Buffett's people said, he's really excited to talk to him. Like, why would he be excited to talk to Mark Malkoff? And Jimmy Buffett said, mark, you're the first one to ever ask me about Carson was the biggest break of my career. And he said, In 1981, I couldn't get booked on television. Carson was the one, and they just wanted to share the stories. I had no idea that that would be the case.

[Mike Rowe]

So when did you know that you had stumbled into, I'm just gonna say it, a gold mine, And I'm not. I don't know how much money you're going to make.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, I don't know.

[Mike Rowe]

You're going to sell a lot of books. I guarantee it. But it's just a quick sidebar. I run this foundation called Microworks, and we award these scholarships. So I go out and I tell these stories sometimes. And when I knew that I was doing a thing that was resonating, it's when old men, old men that were typically very successful would pull me aside and say, let me tell you about my first dirty job. Right. Let me tell you about the time when such and such. So that thing exists in varying degrees with all kinds of subjects in everyone. But for you to find that in Buffett, I'm wondering, was that the inciting incident, or was there some other interview when you left, going, good grief. The world is desperate to tell their Carson story, and I'm here to absorb it.

[Mark Malkoff]

It started almost right away. I sat down with Peter Jones, who did American Masters PBS on John A. Carson, and I told him the idea for the podcast. I call him the next day, and I said, I'm gonna do this. And I said, who do you think I should have on? He said, do you want Carl Reiner's home phone number? I said, yeah. Do you want Doc Severinson cell phone number? I said, okay. Andrew Dickinson's email. I'm like, so everything right away. And I'm with Carl Reiner in Beverly Hills, like, within days. And then he's the one that tells his friend Mel Brooks, his Jeopardy Friend, you need to talk to this kid. I'm in Culver City the next day with.

[Mike Rowe]

To be clear, that's because Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks sit down and watch Jeopardy.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes, I'm in Carl Reiner's living room in Beverly Hills. He's like, mel and I, we have dinner every night here. I'm gonna tell Mel. And yet that's so it was one thing after another, but just the fact that all these people would be like little kids talking about. Mel was doing routines from the 1960s he did on Carson's show for me in the office. He was on Johnny's very first show.

[Mike Rowe]

When did you interview Mel brooks?

[Mark Malkoff]

I was 2013. I talked to him a couple years ago for the book to just get some more information on Melvin Kaminsky. Yes, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Kid from Brooklyn. Yeah, yeah, he's still doing it. He's 98, still at it.

[Mike Rowe]

When you were sitting there listening to Mel Brooks, Blazing Saddles, Young Frank producers, High Anxiety producers. Yes. And did you see him go back in time in his own mind?

[Mark Malkoff]

Absolutely.

[Mike Rowe]

I mean, that's the gift I'm getting.

[Mark Malkoff]

At, that is I would see these people reliving it on their faces and tears in their eyes sometimes, especially the comedians telling me and just thanking me for bringing this back.

[Mike Rowe]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

The tears in Mel Brooks eyes, the tears in my granddad's eyes, all a viewer, an icon. Both move to tears by the memory, the shared memory of a moment.

[Mark Malkoff]

It's powerful.

[Mike Rowe]

That's what I mean by a gold mine. It's not your book, if I can be so bold, because I just finished it and I haven't really had a time to properly absorb it. But it's not really about Carson, in my view, you know, it's about the reader and where the reader was and what the reader can remember and triangulate and share. It's a chance. Like all those celebs you mentioned, they mean something to me. I have a shared memory of them. And when they talk about a memory that I also recall, you've stumbled into something culturally consequential.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's so nice to hear. I just remember even being 16 in Hershey, Pennsylvania, on October, on 5-22-92, when Carson said goodbye. And I remember even just feeling the weight that this guy is going away and what that would mean to America and television history and late night.

[Mike Rowe]

Is that where you grew up?

[Mark Malkoff]

I did for a lot of my life, yeah. It smells like chocolate. When it was windy or rainy. Lucky me.

[Mike Rowe]

Are the street lamps still shaped like Hershey's Kisses?

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

You know, I was in Hershey once for a gig. My suitcase was lost and I needed underwear and I went to Kmart and I bought Hershey's underwear. Literally. Like they make underwear.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, with chocolate on the underwear, which really is a poor choice when you think about. You don't want to put chocolate on. Everywhere was this dark chocolate or milk chocolate?

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, gosh.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, it started milk.

[Mark Malkoff]

I never.

[Mike Rowe]

Whoa.

[Mark Malkoff]

I worked at Hershey park with nuts. I never had to dress up like the Hershey bar. I had a friend who did that and it's hard to come back. Yes, but Hershey, go Hershey. But I remember watching Johnny's last show and just devastated that this guy was going away. I mean, Letterman for people my age and even your age was the kind of like at that point, kind of even my age.

[Mike Rowe]

What the hell does that mean?

[Mark Malkoff]

I don't mean. I mean that a lot of people, when I talk to. Cause I was 16 at the time and you would have been 30. A lot of people even 30 years old, early 30s. Dave was the cooler choice. He's doing all this innovative stuff. And Carson really felt he was being taken for granted and it really hurt him. Robert Smigel, who's a brilliant Saturday Night Live writer, Triumph of the insult Comic Dog, was writing these sketches on Saturday Night Live and it broke Johnny's heart. They portrayed Dana Carvey playing Carson as really out of touch, senile. And Johnny said, I do not want to be seen like this. And everybody's giving Letterman the accolades and it was just a matter of time. I mean, those sketches were the biggest reason by far that Johnny walked away.

[Mike Rowe]

What do you make of the fact that your book is filled with examples of courage and confidence on Carson's behalf, but insecurity and sensitivity at the same time?

[Mark Malkoff]

Definitely the sensitivity shocked me. I thought the cult was cold and aloof, like the media would make him out to be. He'd joke about the cold and aloof moniker and then I'd be debt with his friends and the people that spent the most time. And consistently they told me the same thing. He was almost the same person on and off camera. And you could not be out there for 30 years and fool the American public and not be yourself. Now at the same time, it was a small group of people that saw him like that that he felt comfortable with, but if he didn't know the person, he would be very, very shy and you self preservation purposes. I mean, the guy couldn't walk 5ft down the street without somebody literally grabbing his arm. So, I mean, people might have seen him be cold and aloof, but it was self preservation. So that was one thing. What was the other thing you asked?

[Mike Rowe]

Well, I mean, it's just sometimes on the same page in your book, you've got this weird juxtaposition between sublime confidence.

[Mark Malkoff]

You're right. He has enough confidence that when comedians would debut on his show, young comedians during commercials, he would give them ideas for their jokes and punch up their material. Like George Lopez told me afterwards when he debuted on Carson. Carson's like, what? Afterwards, went to his dressing room. Why don't you try on this joke? This. And Lopez tried it the next night and crushed. He said Carson knew what he was, but at the same time, he was definitely very, very. He would watch his competition. I mean, in 1971, he was watching for television at 11:30. He's watching his show. He's watching the Dick Havoc show. David Frost. Then it was either Joey Bishop or Merv Griffin. And he was so competitive and so insecure that I. I don't know if you want me to talk about it, but he faked hepatitis. Like, that's pretty big, that he faked hepatitis and was instead getting cosmetic eye surgery, right? Yeah, because his wife.

[Mike Rowe]

So he was off. Just so people understand, he's suddenly off the air for two weeks.

[Mark Malkoff]

Joey Bishop is filling in.

[Mike Rowe]

Joey Bishop's filling in. And the story goes out that he's got hep B. Yeah.

[Mark Malkoff]

Okay. So Cavett is 10 years younger than him. David Frost, the playboy's 14 years younger. His mom Ruth in Nebraska said, johnny, you're looking so old. His girlfriend had just convinced him to stop driving, dyeing his hair. So Carson gets this idea. I'm gonna just say I have hepatitis. Go. He didn't realize, and this was really devastating him, that over 200 people. 200 people at NBC would have to get shots. Painful gamma goblin shots. And the NBC nurse is going around giving all these people that worked for him shots. Not only that, but people that were guests the last three weeks. Tony Randall, come on in to NBC, need a shot. And Carson's horrified that this is happening. But then you have people at NBC. Cause Carson, it's the equivalent to someone on Taylor Swift, that famous. There were people that weren't even around Carson that wanted the shot to brag to their friends, right? So they're like, NBC nurse, give me the shot so I can tell my friends. So, yeah, yeah, that was. That really shows his competition. Letterman was another person. He loved Letterman. But his biggest fear was going against Letterman. And the best solution possible was for Carson to put Letterman after him and limit him, give him as Many limitations as possible in Johnny's eyes. One, no monologue. Johnny thought that that was a key. Dave could only do four opening remark jokes. You have to do it from New York. Less guests back then. You can't only have four people in your band. No brass instruments. And it was one thing after another that Johnny. Oh, no. Fridays, which is when the younger people stay up. And he gave him five Fridays a year for the first couple years. So Dave loved Johnny. Johnny loved Dave. But at the same time, if he was competitive like Tom Snyder when he launched NBC said, okay, we're going to launch Snyder after Johnny's anniversary show. And Carson said, absolutely not. I end the network me. And they gave him for Snyder's debut. They gave him when Joey Bishop was guest host and to get the ratings down. So Carson had approval over every Letterman guest and every Snyder guest. And that was. He was definitely. He was the most competitive at the same time yet insecure person.

[Mike Rowe]

It's just one more juxtaposition. Yeah, he was generous.

[Mark Malkoff]

He was.

[Mike Rowe]

But stingy. He was effusive but limiting. I'll do this, but not to that point. He was like constantly looking for something like equilibrium.

[Mark Malkoff]

Do do, do do do do do do do.

[Mike Rowe]

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[Mark Malkoff]

He would. I mean, he'd take people that were considered too outrageous for TV like Bette Midler and launched her and took her to Vegas when he was broke Judy Garland's record at the Sahara Hotel. I mean, he was a powerhouse in Vegas. He had an unknown Bette Midler that audiences were just shaking their heads. Who Is this. But Carson knew her talent and would nurture these people and you would see them just keep going on Carson show. I mean, after four months, Dave Letterman was guest hosting the show as an unknown. I mean, Gary Shanlin and him were the only unknowns to have her guest host the show. And that was the power. And then they become households.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, you can't be on the show and still be unknown. I mean, has anybody ever occupied that much gray matter in the public's mind for that period of time? I mean, you mentioned Taylor Swift before and I'm like, okay, you know, that's a cultural touchstone. But really, I mean, five, six years of not even that. Like the intensity of that last tour was a thing. But like, how do you think about her notoriety compared?

[Mark Malkoff]

I mean, it's so different. I mean, Steve Martin said Carson was more recognizable than the president or as recognizable. And it was just appealed to every demo. I mean, Taylor Swift, huge accomplishment. And she, you know, gave millions of bonuses, did some really great things.

[Mike Rowe]

My mom couldn't pick her out of a lineup.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, my mom too, probably. But it was one of those things. Carson really played everyone. Everyone knew who this guy was. And as a recognized. Yeah, for 30 years, that was what astounded me in terms of he had competition, but no serious competition for 30 years. Who is good enough at their job that that happens.

[Mike Rowe]

You know, you mentioned Letterman. Yeah, I remember Letterman killing in a monologue later, after, I think Johnny retired and then telling the audience every single joke.

[Mark Malkoff]

I was there. What? No, I was there.

[Mike Rowe]

You were in the studio.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, it was 2005. It was. Johnny had just passed away and broke everyone's heart yet again because he had left this. And I had worked for Dave. I had a day job at Dave Letterman show. And if you worked for Dave, there was a rule that you are not allowed to be in the audience ever, because it would throw Dave off if he recognized somebody and if somebody worked for him or if somebody was famous, if they were a public figure and they had tickets, they'd go up to the balcony because it would throw Dave off. So I, I'm a very persistent person. Some of these guests that took four or five years to convince them to do it. A lot of people said yes right away. And I called up my friends at the show and I'm like, I have to be there for the Johnny tribute show. And they said, mark, we can't do it. We can get in so much trouble. And I said, I just kept calling. They said, fine. They smuggled me in. So I'm in the balcony where Dave can't see me, and they put me in a folding chair so I'm not technically sitting in the audience. And, yeah, Dave comes out, does his monologue, and then he says, I just want everybody to know these. All these jokes were written by Johnny Carson. And it's like, so emotional. And then Johnny's producer, Peter La Sally was a guest. And then Doc Severinsson and Ed Shaughness and Tommy Newsome, the band, they played Johnny's favorite song. Here's that rainy day. It was Johnny's final year, final year in On Earth. He was writing jokes for Letterman, and he was like a little kid, so excited to watch Dave's show and see, you know, Dave would do a golf swing and only Johnny would know why he was doing. Doing that. After he did one of Johnny's jokes and he was a little. That was his last year. I mean, it was two packs a day since he was 14, of unfiltered, unfiltered Palm Alt. So, I mean, he didn't stop until he left the show, and then it was. The damage was done. I mean, he was such a smart guy, but at the same time, Tony Randall would lecture him about smoking and said, I'm fine. Not winded. I can play two sets of tennis. Not winded. He saw what a smoker's lung looked like, and he said, other people, not me. And he found out he had emphysema and had to get quadruple bypass. And the last couple of years were really, really tough.

[Mike Rowe]

You know, it's not really fair to. Like, I'm pointing out these contradictions, these inconsistencies and these juxtapositions. Stingy but generous and so forth. Denial, all these things. It's only the most human thing there is. It's only all of us doing that all the time. We just don't imagine somebody who lives at that heightened level of existence would be subject to those same foibles.

[Mark Malkoff]

I think he tried to do the right thing. There were definitely times. I mean, he would talk about his struggles on air. He wasn't perfect. He said he was overly competitive. The drinking. He said, some people get fun loving when they drink. I go the opposite. But just the fact that he left $180 million, which was the most money ever for an entertainer, to this foundation that no one knew about until a couple years after he passed away. The Janet John Carson foundation, still to this day, that pays out millions of dollars every year to all these places. I Mean, that was to what.

[Mike Rowe]

What does the foundation go?

[Mark Malkoff]

It goes everywhere, from AIDS to education. Just really, I think it's like maybe 80 different groups.

[Mike Rowe]

You left $180 million. Yeah.

[Mark Malkoff]

It was the biggest foundation ever in the history for an entertainment. But those were the stories, and I couldn't put them all on the book that I was shocked about. Where people would tell me, mark, Johnny did this for me. A comedian told me he saved my life from drugs. It was one thing after another. One of the Carson writers said I was going through a painful divorce. Johnny said, can I take you out to dinner? I mean, these are the stories that Johnny did not want us to know. He was just like, he didn't want credit. Like, there's some celebrities, they do something, they have their publicists send out press releases to everyone. Look how great I am. And Johnny wasn't like that.

[Mike Rowe]

Back to the generous point. He was so. Look, every nice thing I've gotten credit for doing in Dirty Jobs, I stole from Carson.

[Mark Malkoff]

He was curious, just like you are curious. Curiosity is the key. And everything I've ever done that I've been successful with, that I'm proud of, is curious. Is curiosity.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, yeah, and more so because it's a conscious choice. It's like work ethic. You're not born curious. You can exercise that muscle. You can choose, or you can let it atrophy. You can also choose, as a host of a show, to, you know, talk more than you listen. You can let your guest shine or.

[Mark Malkoff]

Not try to outdo them like certain guests. You know, somebody's being funny, I'm gonna be funnier. And no comment.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, all my life. All my life I did that until Dirty Jobs. When I saw the quote, I don't know if it was Johnny saying or somebody saying it about him, but he was like, Johnny Carson knew he was gonna be back the next day. His guests were not. There would be a new one. And his job in that role was to make the guest as good as they could possibly be.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's right.

[Mike Rowe]

For a lesson.

[Mark Malkoff]

First half hour was Johnny in monologue comedy piece. And then his rule was, I'm gonna make my guests look good. They get the first laugh, even if they get all the laughs. That is okay with me. Took it from Jack Benny, his mentor, which is. Benny was like, it's my show. If somebody laughs and thinks it's funny, it's, you know, my name is on it. Johnny's name was on it.

[Mike Rowe]

Not just that he owned it.

[Mark Malkoff]

He did. In 1980. He got ownership of his show, which was unheard of, but they needed him. And he said, I'm gonna go down to 60 minutes instead of 90. And NBC obviously lost so much money with advertising, but they needed this guy. I mean, it was such a reversal. But to get ownership of a late night show to get that is almost unheard of. I mean, Letterman was able to do it with CBS in 93 because they had no infrastructure in place and they really, really wanted him. But the fact Carson was able. Generosity. I know I'm only going to bring this up. I know this is. I don't know how awkward this was with the book, but I'm only mentioning this because I know that she saved her job. And we talked about it before the show was Joan Rivers Joan. To me, I could have done a podcast about Joan being generous to people and the wonderful things she did, which is heartbreaking, which what I write about with in this book with her and Johnny, what really did happen. But I do want to acknowledge, I know I met her a couple times, she wouldn't talk to me for the podcast and she was gone when I was writing the book. But I do want to say I could do a whole podcast on her and how wonderful she was to people.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, if you ever do that and you want to hear from another country, call me. Because she literally saved my career.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, I know. And that's why I'm bringing it up. And there's so many people that I've read these stories and talked to people that she was there for them and did these things. And her generosity, it's just.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, here's the crazy fact. And I think a lot of people do, for those of you who don't know the story, you know, Joan Rivers was a very popular guest host.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. Permanent guest host in 83. And she broke Sinatra's record in either Vegas or Atlantic City. I mean, Johnny gave her that real estate for the first time in the history of the Tonight Show. And Joan's career soared even higher.

[Mike Rowe]

And she. Who knows what would have happened. But I think it was Fox that made her an offer that I was going to say that she couldn't refuse, but really it was kind of Edgar.

[Mark Malkoff]

This is what happened. She wanted to be a good wife. When she would meet people in private at a party, it wasn't, hi, my name's Joan Rivers. I'm Joan Rosenberg. And she wanted to be a good wife. And Barry Diller told me who was the head of Fox. He told me in New York. He's like, I told Joan, you need to tell Johnny. She was, for two and a half months, signed this deal with Fox and was still going on with Johnny, was guest host. And Barry said, I'm friends with Johnny. I'm playing a poker game with him. You need to tell him. And Edgar was the one. They said, there's gonna be unforeseen circumstances. And she didn't tell him. And at the same time, Johnny was in negotiations with Carson for her to keep guest hosting the Tonight show. And she had no intention to do. She had already signed this deal with Fox. And then the weekend before Johnny found out it was Johnny's producer, Fred DeCordova and Johnny were calling Joan at home in California and they'd say, oh, no, she's in Vegas. They'd call Vegas, oh no, she's in. They couldn't get her on the phone. And then finally that Sunday night, Johnny got a call from Brandon Tartakoff and Joan was dodging them.

[Mike Rowe]

Joan and then Tarikov, who's running NBC.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. Who said, you know, Jones going against has a show on Fox. And Johnny just, he was heartbroken. I mean, he just, he couldn't believe it. And he, he didn't hang up on her. He just wouldn't take Rivers call. Rivers went into panic mode and called him. But then she did some other things, which she admits she did, which is number one, she tried to take Johnny's prize producer, Peter lasalle over to her.

[Mike Rowe]

That's, that's.

[Mark Malkoff]

And Johnny couldn't understand that. Every talent coordinator and I've talk, I've talked to some of them, every five got a call and they were offered double their salary from Joan to go over, to go from Johnny. And none of them did. They still stuck with Johnny. So that was really tough. And then Joan making it out to be some media war. I mean, she said, you know, if you go on my show, you can't do John, Michael J. Fox, Mel Brooks, all these people did Joan's show and Johnny didn't care. Johnny's cue card person who Johnny was very close to, Don Schiff, told me he went to Johnny. He said, I had the opportunity, my company has the opportunity to do Jones show at Fox, do the cue cards. He's like, no, you have to do it. It's a lot of money. You have my blessing. All she needed to do was come to him that I have this opportunity. But the thing that, that one of the reasons she didn't do it in Edgar is that she. This would have happened is that it would have been two Months that Johnny would have removed her as guest host. But it would have been two months. It would have preserved her relationship with Johnny. Everyone sat down with Johnny and said, I have an opportunity. Joey Bishop, Dick Havett. And then their shows would get inevitably canceled, and Johnny would have them back instantly. And it was all good. And rivers, after 10 months, Barry Diller said, I'm firing your husband. And Rivers said, if you do that, I'm walking. Rivers thought Diller was bluffing. He wasn't. And after 10 months, she was out of a job. Two months later, Edgar Rosenberg takes his own life. It was horrible. And then Ms. Rivers finds out she has millions of dollars in debt. Talk about resiliency. Talk about somebody who, I mean, is an icon, somebody in comedy that was able to bounce back at such a level.

[Mike Rowe]

Did you see her documentary?

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. Piece of work, sure.

[Mike Rowe]

Jesus.

[Mark Malkoff]

No, she's incredible in terms of somebody being that competitive and loving what they do. Yeah, it was definitely a master class. And if you want longevity in this business, I mean, there was a reason. It just was really hard. I don't think she ever got over what happened with Johnny. She tried to. She'd see him around and, you know, try to talk to him, and he just never. If he was hurt, the relationship was over.

[Mike Rowe]

It's another thing that makes your book more than a. Oh, and then this happened, and then that happened. It's so human, dude. It's like we're sitting right now in Santa Monica, and within, say, 10 square miles, there are many, many, many, many, many, many people, many executives, lots of talent, writers, comedians, all of them, who in a similar situation would shrug and go, that's showbiz. Right? Because, you know, if you're in this town, you must be this tall to get on the ride, and you're gonna get stabbed in the back and your friends are gonna let you down, and so forth and so forth and so forth. And if you take it personally, you'll go out of your mind. And here again is Johnny Carson at the absolute top of the food chain. It's not showbiz.

[Mark Malkoff]

He was wounded.

[Mike Rowe]

It's personal.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, there were certain times there were a few entertainment figures that he just couldn't shake. But it was even people like Dick Clark. He did business with him on bloopers and practical jokes. But when I put Clark on the show for 30 years, because when Carson was a game show host, Dick Clark was American Bandstand, this phenomenon. And the network wanted to put Carson's game show, which just had started in the middle of Bandstand and divide the show up. And Clark said, absolutely not. And Carson, if he held a grudge and was hurt, I mean, you just wouldn't have the person on. And it was definitely petty. I mean, Carl Sagan, who we loved, corrected him twice on the air and interrupted him. And Carson's he's never coming back. I mean, that was.

[Mike Rowe]

But they stayed friends.

[Mark Malkoff]

They did. But it was so for somebody looking on petty. But at the same time, someone like Jerry Lewis, who was rude to Carson's staff, said, I don't care if he's Jerry Lewis, this icon, he's never coming back. He was rude to my staff. So he definitely had people's back. But there are people that went on that it's a lot of people with look petty.

[Mike Rowe]

So he had rules, but it was a sliding scale and your experience might vary.

[Mark Malkoff]

He was not a religious man, but he did not like people doing jokes mocking religion or God. And Ellen DeGeneres, on her third appearance, got banned from the show. They told her not to do a specific joke that she did. And you know, Carson was a humanist. Carson would spend a lot of time with fellow humanists. Norman Lear, Carl Sagan. These are people that their philosophy is, we don't believe in God, but we were here on earth to leave the world in a better place and to be a good person. And that was what Carson did. But at the same time, he definitely respected people that had faith. And Ellen, when she did that joke.

[Mike Rowe]

What was the joke? You remember?

[Mark Malkoff]

The joke, to my recollection, was that she was just became a godmother to like a 5 or a 10 year old. And she's like, I happen to call me God for short. Something that really doesn't seem like it's a big deal. But back then especially people would write in letters when they were with religion. And I mean, Jay Leno made a. I mean, he would call the viewers and apologize. I mean, Johnny would do that too. If it was really. If he did a joke that really he felt was fair, he would call the person or write them. I mean, he would get on the phone all the time with people, make a wish with kids and stuff. But he definitely, if he thought he was in the wrong, he would apologize. He would take people that would apologize to him. Chevy Chase sent him an apology letter in 1977. Said, I'm sorry for the stuff I've said. I'd love to come on if you'll have me incarcerated. Said, absolutely, come on in. They met each other for the first time before the show. Then they became poker pals for decades after that. And it was all good. All it took was an apology.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, there it is again, man gracious or not bury the hatchet or carry the grudge.

[Mark Malkoff]

And there were people that their careers were not going well and they said, Johnny, they would write Johnny letters. Robert Gule, will you please have me on the show? I haven't done the show in 10 or 15 years. Carson said, absolutely. Phyllis Newman.

[Mike Rowe]

Wait, wait, wait. Was it Goulet who forgot the words?

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes, that was it.

[Mike Rowe]

That was that. And what's his name? John Davidson.

[Mark Malkoff]

Goulet forgot that. That was the time that he wrote a letter to Johnny, can I come on the show? He goes on. And any other late night show would have stopped because Goulet forgets the words to Memories. And Johnny said, no, we're gonna keep rolling.

[Mike Rowe]

The song was Memories. Yes.

[Mark Malkoff]

And John Davidson already. It made John Davidson in Goulet look so good. Because they're human beings to these people. You know, you look at some famous people and you think they're always perfect. And it gave them extra segments on the show and it was wonderful that Johnny did that with.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, I just want to jump in and say that that is. That's the gold. Right. So on the one hand you're going to have a pre interview, there's going to be a producer, you're going to have a plan, but every now and then you're going to let the viewer know that we're on that part of the map that says right here be dragons. The mixture conis. Right, right. So the Goulet episode is amazing, but it's also why obviously the Ed Ames beat. But it's why the animals ranked so high. Because you can't script those sons of bitches.

[Mark Malkoff]

No, he was somebody that we're gonna let all the mistakes get in. And to the point where he would do things on principle sometimes that would shock the writers. And they admired him so much, he did a graduation sketch where he was in cap and gowns and it bombed. And he called up the head writer the next day and said, we're gonna do the same sketch tonight and said, okay, so we're gonna rewrite it. Oh, no. It was a bad audience. This was funny. We're gonna do the exact thing word for word.

[Mike Rowe]

What?

[Mark Malkoff]

When it was in the 80s. So this is.

[Mike Rowe]

So he was in LA.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, it was in the late 80s. Word for word. And it kills the second night with that. And the writer said, so we're gonna acknowledge to the audience beforehand. We're doing the same thing. Oh, no, he was fearless and it killed.

[Mike Rowe]

That is bananas.

[Mark Malkoff]

And it killed. And then after it killed, he acknowledged, you know, finally we did that piece, the same piece. And Carson. No, he wanted to do the A to B comparison. He was convinced there was a bad audience and it was.

[Mike Rowe]

But so in his mind, does he think his audience consists only of the people in the studio?

[Mark Malkoff]

Like, no.

[Mike Rowe]

What do you do if you're home? Okay. Like, you watch it last night.

[Mark Malkoff]

I know. And you go to the.

[Mike Rowe]

You're like, what are you doing, dude? Or is it.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. Is it a rerun?

[Mike Rowe]

Some weird.

[Mark Malkoff]

Is it a rerun from the night before? He was brave like that. I mean, it was very rare he would do something like that. But it was just on principle. I mean, it was so hard for him to go out there some nights when the audience was bad and it would happen. Now everybody claps during a monologue joke. If they. Monologue jokes don't bomb back then. Carson. Some of the best lines and the best things in the monologue, inevitably a joke wouldn't work and he'd be funnier. Yeah, I mean, he wouldn't purposely pick bad jokes to do, but once in a while something wouldn't work and he'd be as funny, if not funnier with one of those, you know, saving a joke. I mean.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, I mean, is that. Again, see, I. Maybe I'm not being fair to producers, but, you know, to like, the whole notion of an audience warm up is kind of. I get it. But, you know, anybody who's ever been to see live tapings will see the people on the sides just telling the audience when to clap. And. And like, what's the difference between that and a laugh track?

[Mark Malkoff]

There is an audience warm up person I'm not going to mention who actually tells the audience how loud I need you with my laugh and has them get to that pitch and. Yeah, I mean, a lot of those shows, that's what the audiences do. They either clap or. Yeah, it's really. They didn't do that with Carson. That never happened with Carson.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, and I think viewers are smart and I think Carson. I've never seen anybody who respected the audience more than Carson.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, that was one thing. He never. He wouldn't put certain people on if he thought that the audience. Because he respected the audience, he wouldn't put them on if they couldn't tell if the person was in character or not. So Gilbert Godfrey was never allowed to do the show. Pee Wee Herman couldn't do the show.

[Mike Rowe]

But Tiny Tim could.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes, because he was real. And if it was something obvious like Super Dave Osborne, that was okay. Father Guido Sarducci, Donna Vello. This is obviously a bit. But if there was any question, like, Emo Phillips were not putting him on.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[Mark Malkoff]

So, yeah, that was his respect for the audience. And he. Even with magicians. Because Carson was an amateur magician. He banned Orson Welles, who was his friend. Magician friend for his show for when he guess hosted the Tonight show, had plants in the audience for this Mentalist trick. And Carson thought that was a violation of just a magician's code. And also the audience as well, not respecting the audience, and he banned him from the show.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, what about, like, you know, Penn and Teller?

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Also great magicians, but their shtick is debunking.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

So how's that play?

[Mark Malkoff]

I was just with in Vegas with Penn, and he asked, dude, you drop names faster than.

[Mike Rowe]

And I have never, ever talked to anyone in my life who. Who has known this many things.

[Mark Malkoff]

I was with Penn just. And he.

[Mike Rowe]

This morning.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, I was with him like, a week and a half ago, and Las Vegas. And he was telling me, because he's like, why do you think we were never on Carson, Penn, and Teller? I said, oh, you were on with Gay Guess. I was Jay Leno at the time. But you didn't do it with Johnny. I was like, I was told that Johnny wouldn't have you on because you were giving away the secrets. And he said, wrong. And he told me the reason that they. Johnny wouldn't have them on is because at the end of one of the routines, Johnny wanted Teller to come up to show the audience. It was like it was in a tank of water to show that he was okay. And they didn't want to do that. So Johnny said, I respect that artistic integrity. We're just gonna put you on with Jay instead. And Penn told me he regrets it. And he became friends with Johnny. I mean, they became friends and talked on the phone. And Penn did this documentary with Paul Provenza called the Aristocrats, and that was one of Johnny's favorite jokes. And Johnny Penn was gonna go and Paul Provenza were gonna go to Johnny's home in Malibu right after the movie was done and premiered. And Johnny passed away right then. And it was. They were in Sundance when John. They found out Johnny passed away. They were gonna go to his home. And.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, if I were to suggest people Google the Ariscat Krat, which version of that joke would you suggest? The people watch.

[Mark Malkoff]

I Mean, maybe Gilbert Godfrey is maybe the most famous Gilbert. Johnny would reference the joke, but he couldn't talk about it on the show. I think the people that aren't in comedy or show business, it really. There's probably a mystery. Might not understand why if you're not following along.

[Mike Rowe]

It's like the crudest, dirtiest job business in the history of Joe Business.

[Mark Malkoff]

And they did a documentary where everybody has their own version of this thing, and it's filthy. I mean, it's absolutely.

[Mike Rowe]

And the punchline is always the same. The Aristocrats. That's the punchline. Right.

[Mark Malkoff]

And yeah, Gilbert did it. Was one of the first people to do it, I think, on television. And Comedy Central had to be. I think they had to beep it out a lot.

[Mike Rowe]

Sure. Yeah.

[Mark Malkoff]

But Johnny, that was one of his favorite jokes. So name dropping. Who else can I name drop?

[Mike Rowe]

Oh, dude. Oh, you know, speaking of name dropping, you know who's the worst name dropper that I've ever? Worse than him.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, no sting.

[Mike Rowe]

Just the worst. Yeah.

[Mark Malkoff]

I thought you would say Dick Cabot.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, you know what?

[Mark Malkoff]

I love Cavan, by the way.

[Mike Rowe]

I just.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

The extent of my notes here just.

[Mark Malkoff]

Says, I'm only saying Cava because he'll, like, make fun of himself to talk about Groucho. And he. I mean, he knew Stan Laurel. He knew Groucho. I want to hear those stories. I sat down with Cavett twice for my podcast. Oh, yeah? Yeah, I sat down with him for the podcast. I mean, he.

[Mike Rowe]

You're absolutely killing me.

[Mark Malkoff]

He was a writer for Carson. He worked for Jack Parry, got hired in Carson 64. Two years.

[Mike Rowe]

I love Dick Cavett.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, he's the best.

[Mike Rowe]

No, well, no, no, Carson was the best.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. But Cavett, for what he did, for what?

[Mike Rowe]

No one did, what he did better than him. Yeah. You know, like, that's like a George Plimpton kind of creature, you know? But I know. I just had another thought. Well, Midwest.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's right. Nebraska. Brando as well. And Carson and Brando were friends for decades.

[Mike Rowe]

What is with, like, how many famous talk show hosts came out of the Midwest?

[Mark Malkoff]

A decent amount of people were Midwestern. Dave Letterman, for sure. Cavett, I think you're talking Ohio. I think Jack Parr. It seemed Steve Allen. Yeah, I forgot where Allen.

[Mike Rowe]

He seems so urbane. Seems so.

[Mark Malkoff]

It really was. That was the Midwest. I mean, to succeed with longevity on those shows, it did seem that it's.

[Mike Rowe]

Like the Central time zone.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

You need to be all Central.

[Mark Malkoff]

Carson was really good, though, at Playing to Nebraska. But then he would be really sophisticated enough to play to the cities. I mean, he. Yeah, I really do wish. Especially for younger people. I don't. How old do you think people. What is the age that you think maybe people don't know who Carson is? I hope the younger people listening go to YouTube and watch his clips. I mean, again, millions and millions, billions of views.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[Mark Malkoff]

I mean, look, 45, maybe. Anyone under 45?

[Mike Rowe]

No, it's younger than we have somebody. Logan in the office.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, good, he knows.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah. Asked about you.

[Mark Malkoff]

I have no idea.

[Mike Rowe]

No, he did not.

[Mark Malkoff]

Did not know Carson. Logan.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, look, man, it's like this is back to your book. There's a. So much of what storytelling is, is a reliance on a presupposed shared experience. Like you can't tell a joke if your audience doesn't understand. Never mind the punchline, but just the whole premise, the whole underlying thing. And when Carson was at his peak, the country basically had three choices a night, maybe four. And so we were living in a time when the assumption was the fat part of the bat was gonna be up to speed with your references. Cause people were more or less watching the same thing. What would Jonny say today, looking at Rogan, looking at. Just go down the list of the top podcasts, the way I heard it, for instance. Okay. Like, how do you think about such a fractured, bifurcated ecosystem?

[Mark Malkoff]

I think he. I don't know. I mean, he would love podcasts because he was curious. I think he would really succeed at something like what you're doing. I know in his retirement years, from 92 till he passed away in 2005, he was just obsessed with watching the worst things on tv. He couldn't believe there were all those reality shows. And he was only disappointed if it wasn't bad enough. But in terms of everybody having a show, I think, yeah, I mean, it's definitely. I feel like the mystique and the. It just lost its magic a little bit. It's just different. I mean, there was just something about everybody tuning in for one person and somebody's career being made where that does. I mean, now I think for comedians, it seems like social media, maybe on Instagram, but it's just.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[Mark Malkoff]

I mean, when was the last time a late night show gave a comedian a break that really launched them? Maybe Nate Pargosi with Jimmy Fallon. Maybe Letterman launched Ray Romano and Gaffigan. Jim Gaffigan.

[Mike Rowe]

But Even that's different.

[Mark Malkoff]

25 years.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what is a hit? You know, you can have a hundred thousand people watch.

[Mark Malkoff]

And it's way more fun back then with three networks and uhf, I think, you know, to me, the Carson show is the best time capsule for those 30 years to look at where the popular, the culture was, how people dressed, how people carried themselves, where the politics was, what was socially acceptable, who were the famous people of the day.

[Mike Rowe]

You don't think about Carson in terms of like a Beau Brummel or a. Like a. Like a fashionista, but his line of clothing, I'm old enough to remember that was a big deal.

[Mark Malkoff]

It was. He was this guy who was paying. It was like, wasn't. I could be off on this, but in the 60s, he could have been a corporation. But he's like, no, I'm going to pay. It was 90% of his taxes. He was like in the top bracket where he was paying so high. And his wife Joanne was the one that brought in this guy, Sunny Werblin, who owned the jets. And Dave, he was the one that got Johnny the men's line. And he started making a gazillion dollars. But that was not what. He didn't. That's not what was his goal. He never was chasing the money. But it did follow.

[Mike Rowe]

But it did catch up. I mean, he was paying 70% in taxes.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes, that was like 70% in taxes.

[Mike Rowe]

And he wasn't cheating, but he thought.

[Mark Malkoff]

He'S like, this is my duty. I'm gonna pay 70. And Warblin was the one that you can be a corporation and got him all these opportunities. And then in 1980, he got ownership of the show. He definitely had that. But at the same time, I don't think that people were watching at home. I mean, he'd wear his suits. They weren't the designer suits.

[Mike Rowe]

No. But didn't he, like, wear, like, a Nehru jacket? Yes.

[Mark Malkoff]

And people started buying. Wore turtlenecks. People started buying the turtlenecks. But this is one of the best examples I can tell you about Carson just being a comforting presence. I think it was 67 or 68. Muhammad Ali is in Texas. He's about to get arrested. He knows he's going to be arrested for the next day for not joining the military. He's refusing service. They're not going to go overseas. Howard Cosell walks into Ali's hotel room and finds Ali under the covers watching Johnny Carson.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh, my God.

[Mark Malkoff]

And he knows hours he's going to. And that's what he. You know what I mean? That was his comfort. And I feel like so many Americans, whatever was Going on with our day, whatever was politics, he was just a comforting presence.

[Mike Rowe]

So that doesn't exist today. It just simply doesn't exists. The closest you can come to it is still going to be like maybe a live sporting event. In terms of a water cooler moment. Sure, that might still galvanize, but nothing like a daily dose. Nothing like a nocturnal tuck in.

[Mark Malkoff]

Not that I can think of now. Unfortunately not. I miss him. I really do. I have to constantly. Because I watch so much Carson. I still do remind myself that, yeah, his show hasn't been on in 30 years and this guy's been off for 20 years. Has not. Yeah, he's been deceased. It doesn't. He seems. From when I watch him, he just. It's. It just seems so fresh and it isn't. I mean, he's been gone for a while. We just miss him.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, I'll tell you something, and I got to ask you about Bushkin. Don't let me forget.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, sure, okay.

[Mike Rowe]

But. But I just, I keep missing it. Cavett.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Here's something I want you guys to. To Google. Google Dick Cavett, Oscar Peterson. Oscar Peterson may be the greatest jazz pianist to ever live. And there's a clip on YouTube of Dick Cavett interviewing him. It is a master class in an interview done in a completely different kind of way. He brings him out and they talk, but then they walk over to the piano and Oscar sits down and you realize the depth of knowledge Cavett has. Not just about Oscar's own repertoire in his past, but about music itself. And back to your earlier thing. Cavett was a curious cat. Cavett and Carson, both curious.

[Mark Malkoff]

He took Jack Parr's advice, which is you throw away any note cards pre interview. You get prepared, but you're having a conversation. That's what Carson did, that's what Parr did, and that's what Cavett did so well.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, that's what I'm trying to do here. And you know what? It is a challenge. Actually, it's not a challenge because we have unlimited time.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

And I'm the master of my own domain.

[Mark Malkoff]

We're gonna go as long as Jason Alexander's friend Peter. What's his name? The one that went for.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh, Peter Tilden. Peter Tilden.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

I went for two hours.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, it went a while.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, in fairness, his dog was dying, so. Yes, yes, that's right.

[Mark Malkoff]

That was definitely. Really?

[Mike Rowe]

You actually watch that? So you watch the show?

[Mark Malkoff]

I do. If I'm gonna sit down with somebody, especially to get on an airplane and fly Out.

[Mike Rowe]

You did do that. Man, you must really want to sell some books.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, come on. No, I mean. I mean, you've accomplished so much. I mean. Yeah, no, I wanted to meet you. I wasn't going to turn this down. I emailed Chuck, and Chuck was like, was so intrigued that it wasn't a book publicist. It was a guy who wrote a book that was just like, I would love to come on.

[Mike Rowe]

And he called me and he get. Look, he. Whatever you said to him, I've known him for 46 years or something like this, so obviously he has no. It's like La Salle plus Cordova.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

Right. And so I'll take his recommendation, but I'll also question everything because, you know, he's got his own ideas.

[Mark Malkoff]

Chuck did get me on the telephone, and I'm like, I hope I don't blow this. Or we did a zoom, and I'm just like, I hope I. I pass this, the test. So. Well, I was glad I was here. I do feel like this is almost like a Carson thing where it's like I'm coming on with something and I'm like, so nervous before you. I mean, okay, want to do a good job.

[Mike Rowe]

You've already done it. Now we're in total bonus fill now. Okay, you crushed it. But the real reason that I wanted to do a podcast face to face, I did plenty long distance and stuff, but it's everything that you just talked about. It's the opposite of production. There are no. I got a pad here, so I can remind myself.

[Mark Malkoff]

Two words, though.

[Mike Rowe]

I have two words, right? What did I write? I wrote cavett, and then I wrote oh, pod, which I'm getting to. Yeah, well, actually, I'm talking about right now. Yeah, people always talk about, let's have a conversation. The problem is all of the existing formats in Morning and Late Night are still fundamentally designed to make sure that can't happen. And most of it is a time restraint. Some of it is advertorial, some of it is people. Producers fall in love with a plan. So then the whole thing becomes execution instead of, you know, a little adventure. I think Carson would love the podcast world because it would let him do even more of what he was so good at doing.

[Mark Malkoff]

He was getting pitches. I mean, his office was less than 2 miles from here in Santa Monica, and he was getting pitched things. And, I mean, he definitely considered doing things with the Titanic. And certain things he was curious about. I mean, he took Jim Fowler to Africa on safari, and Carson. It wasn't enough for Carson to go in so far, he had to take. He on his own took four months of language classes with Swahili so he could communicate with the Africans. When he went to Russia, it wasn't enough. He went to Russia in the late 80s. He took four months. He had somebody come to his home in Malibu and taught him enough Russian where he could communicate with the people. I mean, he was curiosity. And the only Oscar host that no teleprompter, no cue cards, all memorized, everything could edit in his head. All I'm saying, his capability was unlike anybody else.

[Mike Rowe]

We're surrounded to by crutches. Everything from a teleprompter to a cue card, which I know he used, but I've seen the cue cards that he uses and there's. It's just reminders.

[Mark Malkoff]

It was cue cards. It was key words. It wasn't word by word where some hosts need every single word. And he could edit the jokes in his head. And he was on a level. I mean, there was an intimacy he would make people that were terrified. You know, Elizabeth Taylor avoided the show for 29 years. Cause she was terrified. Moment like this comfortable with Johnny. He had that aura very much like this. Just. I mean, all the fear.

[Mike Rowe]

Who peed their pants? Somebody famous peed their pants.

[Mark Malkoff]

I didn't know that. Robert Smigel wrote a sketch where they had Dom DeLuise played by Chris Barley pee himself. And that was SNL did something. But I don't know, maybe somebody did pee themselves.

[Mike Rowe]

So it's in your book? Yeah, it's in your book.

[Mark Malkoff]

Did I really have that in my book? I wrote it. I should know that.

[Mike Rowe]

I don't know that it was somebody you interviewed. It might have been somebody telling an anecdotal third party story.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, it could have been.

[Mike Rowe]

I don't want to say it wasn't Michael Douglas.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh yeah, it was. It was Michael Douglas.

[Mike Rowe]

It was Michael Douglas pants.

[Mark Malkoff]

He did he wet himself. I can't believe I forgot about this. This was Michael Douglas. I wrote a book.

[Mike Rowe]

I'm sure he's relieved.

[Mark Malkoff]

I wrote a book.

[Mike Rowe]

It is in the book.

[Mark Malkoff]

This was in New York in 1970 when it was his first time on Carson. He was backstage and he wet himself and they took a hair dryer and he was so nervous. And talk about guest host. Roger Moore is James Bond. He's guest hosting the Tonight. He's like, I can do this. He sweat through his suit during the commercials. They had to take a hairdryer to try to dry the perspiration. And this is James Bond to your earlier point.

[Mike Rowe]

Man, he made it look so easy.

[Mark Malkoff]

He really did that.

[Mike Rowe]

Even smart people assumed it was easy.

[Mark Malkoff]

It was the hardest gig in show business.

[Mike Rowe]

That's why it's the ultimate magic thing.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's why so many people turn the thing down. Seinfeld's like, why would I do this? No, it's the hardest gig. I don't know how somebody does it. You can be a great stand up, but be able to sit down and be interesting and funny consistently five nights a week. It's a.

[Mike Rowe]

And a traffic cop.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

It's a very, very codified set of muscles.

[Mark Malkoff]

The one thing about this that I really like is back then when I was doing the podcast and talked to almost 400 people, and then ultimately, for the book, more than 400, is that Zoom did not exist. I couldn't do the podcast remotely. So I am in people's homes, I'm in their offices, and I'm so bad with tech. I don't know how to set up two microphones. So I have one microphone handheld, and the person's like Hugh Hauser, man on the street. I'm going back and forth, and there is this thing where we're really close. I don't mean it for it to be like that. And it was just this connection. And I. Carson. Carson had that with this. I mean, he was able to do that. You're able to do it. And what surprised you?

[Mike Rowe]

I mean, you must have gone into this project with a certain expectation. What really took you?

[Mark Malkoff]

I didn't think the guy had any friends, and I thought he was cold and aloof. You mentioned Henry Bushkin's book. I mean, they tried to imply he had no friends. He said Bushkin said that Carson died alone, which isn't true. Carson died with his family. His wife was there, his two kids at the time, his other family, they had a memorial for him, a family memorial that was private, on a boat. It was extremely emotional. But I did listen to what Ms. Rivers would say about Carson being a nasty man. And somebody gave me Mr. Bushkin's book. And I just was convinced that Carson didn't have friends. And then I'm sitting down talking to the friends, and it was. I had no idea, the generosity. I mean, people like Loni Anderson telling me, no, Johnny finds out my mom is dying of cancer and I'm in San Francisco shooting a show. And Johnny said, here's my plane. You'll fly to see your mom whenever you want. He didn't want the stories but like Burt Reynolds, there was a rumor he had aids. And Loni Anderson told me so many of their friends abandoned them. Johnny was in their living room with them. And Johnny never. And this is when Burt's career wasn't going well. Johnny. This is what consistently they said, if Johnny was your friend, he was your friend. And their loyalty that existed was like no other. But if he was hurt, it was over. That was the thing that came out.

[Mike Rowe]

That's so amazing, man, isn't it? The fragility and the loyalty. Again, two sides, same coin. Yeah, just amazing. Bushkin was his attorney.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's right.

[Mike Rowe]

And a real trusted confidant.

[Mark Malkoff]

1970 to. I think it was like 1987. It was his. Yeah, it was the department person he spent the most time with. And they. Judy Bushkin, who's not alive anymore. The wife said that. I mean, Henry and Carson were closer, as close as anybody can possibly be. Bushkin in his book later said, you know, we were never friends. But she said everyone else I talked to said that, yeah, they were friends. And Bushkin in an interview said we were friends. And he.

[Mike Rowe]

What is his book called?

[Mark Malkoff]

Johnny Carson. I can't believe I'm selling books for him. But I've never met him. I've never asked to talk to him. I have no desire to talk to somebody. I talked to an attorney about their former client. I mean, it's legal what he did. He had a. I believe when he wrote the book, even though Carson was gone, he had to not practicing attorney anymore. I don't think he could be. But that and Ms. Rivers were the things that I'm like, this guy doesn't have friends, not a good guy. And I was shocked when I started talking to people and I mean, I talked to over 400 people. And I mean, other than he was a bad drinker, none of those stories came. I mean, Ms. Rivers wouldn't talk to me. Wayne Newton, who has problems, wouldn't talk to me. But I can count on one hand the number of people that had problems with him, real problems with him. And in this case, with Ms. Rivers or Wayne Newton. I can go into what actually did happen, at least according to Carson and people that knew him.

[Mike Rowe]

But how in the world could you be Johnny Carson and interview that many people and not run afoul of our couple?

[Mark Malkoff]

I thought that I was gonna get just horror stories and they did not come to my. I mean, yeah, it was very surprising.

[Mike Rowe]

Was that gratifying because you loved the guy?

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. You know, I thought I was going to do seven episodes, and it was going to be almost all negative. And I didn't want to put something out in the universe. I'm like, I'm going to be disappointed. I don't even know if I'm going to release this. And then I talked to the people that knew him, the staff, and it was just like one thing after another.

[Mike Rowe]

I didn't quite connect these dots. You did. How many episodes of this Carson podcast?

[Mark Malkoff]

Carson podcast was, like, almost 400. They're still up. Carsonpodcast.com and they're still up. And, yeah, I talked to a lot of. I mean, 50 people at least are not with us anymore. It's. It's heartbreaking, but like every. You know, everyone from Regis to younger people like Bob Saget, I mean, I wanted to get all their stories with Carson.

[Mike Rowe]

So you got them for the pod, but you also got all the data for the book.

[Mark Malkoff]

I didn't realize that when I did that that that would happen. I promise you, I did not think I was gonna do a book. It was eight years of people being like, you have to write a book. And I'm like, I can't write a book. I don't know how to write a book. I've never done a book. And then the stories just kept pouring in. But I would meet people at parties that were, a lot of times comedy, entertainment people. They're like, so what do you do? And I'm like, do a podcast about Johnny Carson. Oh, I heard he was a terrible person. I said, name three people that have problems with him and they can't do it. I was like, I need to. I felt like I had to write a book to refute, at least from Carson's friends, who this guy was. I'm not saying he was perfect. He fart, wasn't. And he would talk about the drinking, and we'd go into the drinking stories in there. I mean, he would say, some people get fun loving. He said he would turn into Attila the Hun. It was one drink too many, and he would want to fight everybody.

[Mike Rowe]

So crazy. And he was a bit of a daredevil, really.

[Mark Malkoff]

He was. I mean, he was a daredevil in the fact that he. I mean, early Tonight show, he was jumping out of airplane. He was pitching to Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris at Yankee Stadium. That was in his first week of the show. And then he was playing with the jets at the Polo Grounds, racing cars at Indianapolis Motor Speedway with Parnelli Jones and Mario Andretti.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh, I remember. And he had a great Line to Andretti after he. I mean, he was driving full on.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes. Oh, he was going. I mean, I talked to Andretti about it. He was really nice to tell me this story.

[Mike Rowe]

Of course you did. Yes, of course you did. So I'm talking about Mario Andretti. Unbelievable.

[Mark Malkoff]

I've never. Yeah. For the book. I just needed to get the story. So, I mean, I felt like I wanted to get the inside for people.

[Mike Rowe]

I'm going back to the gold mine and not just. Not the money. And I hope you make a bunch of it.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, thank you.

[Mike Rowe]

But the wealth of experience, I mean, to grow up as a fan.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, right, sure.

[Mike Rowe]

And then to take the object of your fandom and make it the subject of a pod and then the subject of a book, and then in order to do both those things, to come back here to LA to interview only the biggest names in the entertainment industry.

[Mark Malkoff]

People were nice to talk to me.

[Mike Rowe]

Like 400 of them.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. I mean, at Doc Severinsson. I mean, the people. Yeah, the people that were there, the power players, all wanted to talk to me and they would thank me. And I didn't understand for a long time why they were thanking me. But then I realized it was the best time for a lot of these people was like their college experience, like someone that had a great college experience, the best part of their life, and they never get to talk about it in detail. And that was the Carson and that was the Tonight show, and that was the man for 30 years entertained us. And then in 1992 broke our hearts. And for two years he did. People say, you know, he disappeared, but for two years we got to see him in the American Teacher awards, Bob Hope's 90th birthday, the Simpsons Presidential Medal of Honor, George Herbert Walker Bush at the White House. And then Letterman. In May of 94, he did a walk on. And that was the last time we saw the guy.

[Mike Rowe]

He loved Hope, but he didn't want to be Hope.

[Mark Malkoff]

He loved Hope. People think that Johnny did not like Hope. He liked him as a person. But it was the last maybe five or six years of Johnny's show that Hope could not go on very well. He wasn't. He just was not where he was before. He couldn't hear. He was reading lips. And sometimes what Johnny would ask him wouldn't sync up. And Johnny had so much reverence that you would put Hope on. But he's. He would think, why is this guy degrading himself? Why is he performing when. And. And he just thought that this guy was so Good and so talented. I have so much respect for him. Why would he do this? That's why Carson, when he was 66, said, I did it. I don't want to be Hope. He thought Lucille Ball coming in the 1980s was a mistake. I don't want to be. I want to be remembered for doing the best I could do.

[Mike Rowe]

I don't want to stay at the party too long.

[Mark Malkoff]

He broke his heart going to see Frank Sinatra, who he loved. And Sinatra was getting lyrics wrong. I mean, they were up on the jumbotron the lyrics, and he still was having trouble. And it's like, why is Frank doing this? Where? That was what Hope was. But when Hope called Johnny and said, will you do my 90th? And even though Johnny's retired, said, I'm there. But that was loyalty. It was. It was. And then Johnny was in Santa Monica by here just taking pitches and really thought about. But every time he'd say, you know what? I did it. And one other reason I think that he did disappear is he quit smoking and gained weight. And I think it was a cosmetic issue probably as well.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, he did get his eyes done.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

He got all those people jacked up on Goblin.

[Mark Malkoff]

That was one of the low points. Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

The only point in your book. There was only one section where I slammed it shut and said, this can't be true.

[Mark Malkoff]

Okay, let's do it.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, you already mentioned him twice. It's Dick Clark. Yeah. You would have no way of knowing this, but two famous people gave me advice and took me by the scruff of the neck and kind of resuscitated my career. The first was Joan Rivers. The second was Dick Clark, and both of them got on his naughty list and basically stayed there.

[Mark Malkoff]

They did business. Clark and him did business. I mean, Clark was known for being very frugal, very generous in terms of advice, and gave a lot of people work. But, yeah, I was surprised about the Dick Clark thing.

[Mike Rowe]

I was, too.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, they did business. But, yeah, didn't he say something?

[Mike Rowe]

He must have been. Oh, I remember. So Carson is hosting who do you trust ironically? And the network wants to goose its ratings, so they put it on in the middle of Bandstand.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

Dick Clark is hosting Bandstand.

[Mark Malkoff]

He doesn't like that.

[Mike Rowe]

And he's like, get this thing out of the middle of my show. What am I doing? Carson gets wind of that.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Got a memory like an elephant.

[Mark Malkoff]

Exactly. And then the relationship's over.

[Mike Rowe]

Done.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah. I mean, they did business decades later. But you're not coming on my show. Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

You know what Dick Clark said to me once?

[Mark Malkoff]

Tell me.

[Mike Rowe]

You'll love this. I was hosting a game show called no Relation up at CBS Farmer's Market, Fairfax.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, wow. I love Television City. That. Oh, Jack Benny's old studio. Are you kidding me?

[Mike Rowe]

I shared a dressing room with Bob Barker. So Bob's doing the Price is Right during the week, and I'm doing no Relation on the weekends.

[Mark Malkoff]

He gets hosted for Johnny once, but keep talking.

[Mike Rowe]

So Dick Clark is the EP on the thing, and he hired me, and, you know, I'm doing the show and, you know, I walk out and I'm like, hi, everybody. I'm Mike Rowe. This is no Relation. The only show. Blah, blah, blah, Going to the thing. And the only time Dick ever stopped me, the only time, he didn't even tell me to do it again. He just said, I'm gonna make a suggestion that's classic and you're a smart guy. Like, I'm listening. He says, when you walk out there and you say, hi, everybody. Well, there are people at home sitting by themselves. They're not an everybody. They're just home watching you. It's just you and them. You know, don't break the spell. Just say hi. Hi.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's a really good note. I would never think about something like.

[Mike Rowe]

That from a broadcaster.

[Mark Malkoff]

But just the fact that he was so generous, the way he said it and so gentle, you know, Ed McMahon would probably never would have gotten the Tonight show. And certainly, who do you trust if it wasn't for Dick Clark? He did a lot of great stuff.

[Mike Rowe]

Amazing.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, yeah. And McMahon. Thirty years of employment, and did he. Boy, did he milk it. Star search dude. Over 100 endorsements, Broadway, movies.

[Mike Rowe]

Wasn't Ed Hawkinstuff on the boardwalk?

[Mark Malkoff]

He was a huckster. His dad owned a bingo hall. And Ed, as a teenager, he was selling. Was it Morris Metric Slicers? And Jack Klugman and Charles Bronson are roommates. They're not famous. They're acting students. And they're working for Ed's dad in the bingo hall. And Ed is teaching Bronson and Klugman on how to sell and how to really pitch. I mean, Ed was born to do that. I mean, the best thing that Ed ever did, the smartest shrewdest thing is Johnny was not gonna bring Ed to the Tonight Show. Cause Johnny did not want to remind people he was a game show host. And Ed McMahon was his announcer on this. And he wanted somebody from the West Coast. Johnny's friend, Hank Sims. Hank didn't want to relocate. And Johnny or Ed took Johnny out to dinner at Danny's Hideaway. Ed got on his hands and knees, tears begging, johnny, you have to take me. I just got a new home. King of Prussia, please. Johnny was embarrassed. Fine, I'll take you. 30 years of employment. Those shows only lasted five years. I mean, but Ed McMahon, smartest thing he ever did.

[Mike Rowe]

Incredible.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Chuck, who was the guy? Publisher's Clearinghouse. Who came in here?

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, he was great. I did. Yeah, yeah. No, I watched that.

[Mike Rowe]

Good Lord, dude.

[Mark Malkoff]

Everything was going well until they changed it up a little bit, and then they started getting the lawsuits, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. See, I do watch. Yeah, I try to. Yeah. If I'm doing somebody's show, I brought.

[Mike Rowe]

Me a phallus carved out of wood that he was presented with at some sort of retreat. Anyway, full disclosure.

[Mark Malkoff]

Full disclosure. Let's do it.

[Mike Rowe]

When Chuck told me about your book, my first thought was, I want to talk to this guy. Because. And this is why I keep bringing up Bushkin. Before this podcast was Conversations, I was writing these short stories. Did Chuck send you one?

[Mark Malkoff]

Did I listen to it? About New York?

[Mike Rowe]

Yes.

[Mark Malkoff]

There was a lot of the stuff that was true, but there were definitely details. And I can debunk what wasn't true if you would like me to.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, that. That's what this podcast used to be. I used to write these short stories. You did a good job, and thank you. But it was based on Bushkin's book. Now you've got a problem with Bushkin's book. So the way Bushkin heard it, or at least the way he told it, was the way I read it.

[Mark Malkoff]

You did.

[Mike Rowe]

And so that's the way I wrote it. And so I thought, you know what? I take a lot of liberties with the stories and I make up dialogue and stuff, but tell me what I basically got right and what's wrong and what's verifiable about the night that Johnny Carson ultimately invoked the wrath of the Mafia?

[Mark Malkoff]

The thing that was wrong in some of the details that were left out. First of all, it was 1971. It wasn't 1970. And he said, I could live with that.

[Mike Rowe]

Damn it.

[Mark Malkoff]

Well, no, he said that this is Mr. Bushkin, I wanna make it very clear, said that he got this from Joyce DeWitt, who started on Three's Company. She heard it from Jilly Rizzo. So this is removed. He said that Jilly's, by the way.

[Mike Rowe]

Famous watering bowl, New York, New York.

[Mark Malkoff]

Clay Sinatra.

[Mike Rowe]

Everybody loved it.

[Mark Malkoff]

So apparently, yeah, Carson hit on a Mafia. So his girlfriend there was a hit that was placed. And Mr. Bushkin in his book said that the way he heard it, George Wood, who was a William Morris agent, smoothed over things in 1970. George Wood died in 1963. It took me two minutes on Google to find out that that wasn't true. So there you go. That's one thing that I'm just like, why just not take the time to see. It was really easy.

[Mike Rowe]

Is there any disputing the basic story that Carson goes in, hits a few of his vodka sours, sees a beautiful girl?

[Mark Malkoff]

There's a lot more to it. Okay, okay, so it's in 1971. Joey Gallo, Crazy Joe Gallo, Mafia, just got out of jail. He was there for 10 years. This is in the spring, this is at Gilly's. And he went to use the restroom and Carson was there with Ed McMan and Robert Coe, Ed's manager. And Johnny, when he drank, you did not want to be around him. He did something inappropriate to Gallo's then girlfriend, Jelly rose to McMahon. Get Carson the blank out of here. Got him out. Gallo came out and put a hit Carson Carson. That 100% did happen. Two things happened right then and there. Sinatra and Carson were friends. They met in St. Louis and Sinatra sat down with Gallo. Sinatra knew a lot of these types. He knew Gallo. He said, I need a favor. Gallo said, name it. Johnny Carson. You need to leave him alone. And Gallo said, you tell Carson he only lives and breathes because he knows Frank Sinatra. Another thing that happened that NBC had to do is that the acting boss at the time was Joe Colombo. And Colombo and Gallo hated each other. But they wanted to just. The NBC wanted to just make sure that everything was good. So Columbo was the top boss. So what NBC had to do. And I watched this with my own eyes. NBC in prime time, not even NBC News in primetime. They did a favorable story on Joe Colombo. I watched it. There was no reason for them to do this.

[Mike Rowe]

I watched it.

[Mark Malkoff]

I was like, I have to watch this with my own eyes. And those were the two things. Sinatra and the NBC doing a positive story on Columbo.

[Mike Rowe]

It was, it was positive. And the shred of plausibility that justified it was that Colombo had formed the Italian American Anti Defamation League.

[Mark Malkoff]

He was getting an award.

[Mike Rowe]

He was getting award. And he was basically trying to make the point that, hey, you know what? We're suffering from stigmas and stereotypes. We hard working Italians, and there's a bunch of nonsense about the mob. So NBC does a fluff piece.

[Mark Malkoff]

They did. There was no point for them to do it.

[Mike Rowe]

And then all is forgiven.

[Mark Malkoff]

It was. And they didn't even put that on NBC News. They put it in primetime to have more millions of viewers. It was a primetime news show.

[Mike Rowe]

Was Carson roughed up?

[Mark Malkoff]

To my knowledge, no. I mean, the whole invention of him being thrown downstairs didn't, to my knowledge, didn't happen.

[Mike Rowe]

I heard he was in his penthouse. No recuperating for a couple days.

[Mark Malkoff]

To my knowledge, that did not happen. I mean, he might have been held up for a few days at the UN Plaza, but to my knowledge, he wasn't roughed up or anything. I know Mr. Bushkin also said, and this is true, there was somebody that had mob ties. His name was Keith. What's his name? I forget his name. But there was a gentleman that Mr. Bushkin said that Carson was doing jokes about this guy and he was mafia related and that somebody roughed up Carson. I don't know if that happened or not, but, you know, it's easy to wait till somebody's gone before, you know, I mean, stories like Frank Gifford, like that whole thing with Bush getting claimed about Carson's wife. It wasn't Frank Gifford.

[Mike Rowe]

What was it?

[Mark Malkoff]

It was a race car driver named Peter Revson who the media made out to be the heir to the Revlon throne. It's a lot.

[Mike Rowe]

So it was Bushkin that said that Frank Gifford.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes. Was having an affair with. Yeah, yeah. It was Johnny's second wife. She was going on the weekends to car races. She was. Didn't like New York. She wasn't feeling well. And she would go to car races and fell in love with this race car driver. And the New Year's Eve or Christmas before she walked in, and Johnny was with a woman and she knew that Johnny was not being faithful. And so she. Yeah, Johnny was very suspicious, got a private investigator and they went over to. They found where they thought would be her secret apartment. And it was very obvious to everybody that, yeah, she was in a relationship with this guy, Peter Revson. And then there might have been a framed photo of her and Gifford. They dated. They definitely did date pre Johnny Carson, but it wasn't Gifford, it was Refson.

[Mike Rowe]

Mark, you're.

[Mark Malkoff]

Is anybody still. Everyone's still with us, I hope so.

[Mike Rowe]

Your curiosity really is, I won't say insatiable, because I think anything can be satiated, but it certainly is profound.

[Mark Malkoff]

I try.

[Mike Rowe]

And it certainly is targeted.

[Mark Malkoff]

I try.

[Mike Rowe]

Are you going to continue to be a comedian or is this. Are you going to dine out on this?

[Mark Malkoff]

I'm going to die. I hope not.

[Mike Rowe]

No, no, Dine out.

[Mark Malkoff]

Dine out. I like to just follow my curiosity. I mean, I did these social experiments, experiments for the longest time where it's like, is this possible? I had a fear of flying, a real, genuine fear of flying. And I said, I want to stay on a commercial airplane for a whole month to get over my fear of flying. I can't get on and off and I have to force myself to fly. And I did it. So it was. It's a lot of things like that where I'll get the idea and I'll just subject myself.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, I'm glad you did it because you. You flew out here.

[Mark Malkoff]

I did. I did, yeah. I said, I get world record at the time. No, I'm that good. All the pilots wanted to meet me and they would say, mark, all turbulence is just being in the ocean going over a wave. It's driving over gravel. So, yeah, I just. I think if you follow your curiosity in a positive way, you can't go wrong.

[Mike Rowe]

It'll take you some. Well, maybe you can.

[Mark Malkoff]

I guess so.

[Mike Rowe]

But at least you come by it honest.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes. Try to.

[Mike Rowe]

Let's land a plane then. Okay, I'll try. But you can answer in whatever way you want. You've got. I mean, I said kind of glibly, and I'm going to stick by it. This book is amazing.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, thank you, sir.

[Mike Rowe]

It's called Love Johnny Carson. But I'm still not 100% convinced it's really about Johnny Carson. And now, especially having talked to you, I feel like it has a lot to do with you and a lot to do with the 400 individuals that's fair. You interviewed. And there's something. There's something about this thing that. What's the expression? The. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. It's a fairly simple book with a very comforting format, but it is drinking from a fire hose. And if you drink from it and get through the whole thing, you're going to wind up with insight, questions and a whole lot of stories you can share with your friends that are going to create the illusion of heightened interest, which, let's face it, Mark, that's what we all aspire to. Really?

[Mark Malkoff]

I think so.

[Mike Rowe]

Sure you'll buy all that?

[Mark Malkoff]

Sure, yes. I like it. No, I mean, definitely those. The people. I mean, just when I got the tears from people and people thanking me to write this book, the people that were there, that were in the trenches with Johnny, that worked for him. The people that were on the show. Yeah. It's really a testament to Carson and everybody that went through top three interviews.

[Mike Rowe]

Your top three favorites.

[Mark Malkoff]

Josh, Howard Smith, who was Johnny's friend, who was just not in entertainment at all. And just talk about John. I mean, I talk about the John Club. It was a small group of people. He was John.

[Mike Rowe]

Here's John.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, I thought he was good. Peter La Salle, Johnny's producer. That was amazing to hear the stories.

[Mike Rowe]

The host whisperer.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. He. Arthur Godfrey, Dave Letterman, Tom Snyder, Craig Ferguson. Yeah. So I think those two. And maybe Melvin Kaminsky and Mel Brooks, maybe. I mean, he was on Johnny's first show. It's like Marcus 29 and I'm with Groucho Marx. Cause Groucho was the surprise guest introduced. Johnny, I got Groucho's autograph kid from Brooklyn. And I'm on the desk mocking Tony Bennett, who was also on the show. And Tony was upset. And so. Yeah, just hearing those stories was great.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, your book is like a bowl of warm milk. It's just filled with familiarity and fun, and you've done a savvy, maybe even a cunning thing.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, thank you, sir.

[Mike Rowe]

For a comedian, it means a lot. Well, look, man, I call him as I see him, and it's very, very difficult to find a way through to our earlier point. It's a cluttered, noisy landscape. It's a great book.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, thank you, sir. I really appreciate that.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, it's a Mr. Sir, by the way.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yeah, it was one of those things where I just wanted to deal with the book justice and just tell the truth. And to my knowledge and the people that I talk to.

[Mike Rowe]

All right. It's available now wherever fine books are sold and so forth.

[Mark Malkoff]

Amazon. I did the audible over five days.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Malkoff]

I did my best. I did my best.

[Mike Rowe]

No, you did great. That's what I'm most.

[Mark Malkoff]

Thank you.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh, you really appreciate that. Chuck never learned to read, so this whole audio thing is a gut. No, that. Boy, we could talk about that, too. What a different. Talk about a different set of muscles to sit there for six hours and read.

[Mark Malkoff]

I try to say yes to things that scare me. That scared me and. But I was like, this might be the only time I ever have this opportunity.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh. The compliment I wanted to pay in the beginning, but forgotten that we'll end it with now is. You really are a great example of why I wanted to do this podcast.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh, wow.

[Mike Rowe]

You're. With respect. You're not a celebrity.

[Mark Malkoff]

No, not even close.

[Mike Rowe]

You have a white hot burning category interest that's unique. You're credible and your knowledge on your subject is encyclopedic. But there's something beyond that too, which makes you more than interesting in a passing way. So that's my way of saying thank you for flying across the country to do this.

[Mark Malkoff]

This was so much fun. I'm glad we got to do this. It was an honor.

[Mike Rowe]

Were we rolling on any of this? Taylor? Fantastic.

[Mark Malkoff]

Is this longer than Peter's episode? Because Peter's episode was.

[Mike Rowe]

Could be.

[Mark Malkoff]

Oh my goodness. Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Mark Malkoff is his name. Love. Johnny Carson is his book. You'd be a fool not to get one and read it. Thanks again.

[Mark Malkoff]

Thank you.

[Mike Rowe]

This episode is over now. I hope it was worthwhile. Sorry it went on so long but if it made you smile.

[Mark Malkoff]

Then share.

[Mike Rowe]

Your satisfaction in the way that people do. Take some time to go off. And leave us a review. I hate to ask, I hate to beg, I hate to be a nudge but in this world the advertisers really like to judge. You don't need to write a bunch, just a line or two. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. Number four. All you got to do is leave a quick 5 star, 5 star review. All you got to do is leave a quick five star review. Definitely not. 2. All you got to do is leave a quick five star review. All you got to do is leave a quick Even if you hate it. Especially if you hate it. Thank you.

[Mark Malkoff]

Hi, I'm Chris Gethard and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call. Talk to one of them. They stay anonymous. I can't hang up. That's all the rules. I never know what's going to happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings, crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose slap, somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's going to happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous Marketing is hard. But I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be.

[Mike Rowe]

Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving working.

[Mark Malkoff]

Out, cooking, even going to the bathroom.

[Mike Rowe]

Podcasts are a pretty close companion.

[Mark Malkoff]

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[Mike Rowe]

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[Mark Malkoff]

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[Mike Rowe]

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[Mark Malkoff]

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