471: David Zucker—Thanks for the Parking Spot

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe

Episode 471: David Zucker — Thanks for the Parking Spot
Date: February 17, 2026
Guest: David Zucker, legendary comedy writer and director (Airplane!, The Naked Gun, Police Squad!)

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Episode Overview

In this vibrant and often hilarious conversation, Mike Rowe sits down with David Zucker, the iconic writer and director behind Airplane!, The Naked Gun series, Police Squad!, Scary Movie 3 & 4, and more. They explore Zucker’s comedic philosophy, the evolution and mechanics of spoof comedy, and his attempts to pass on his decades of experience through his new online course, “Master Crash.” The discussion moves from Zucker’s influences and collaboration style to the nature and state of modern comedy, landmark moments from his career, and unexpectedly, his deep obsession with Davy Crockett memorabilia. The episode is packed with insights, laughter, and reflections on how comedy has changed—and what’s been lost or gained along the way.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Zucker’s Comedic Beginnings and Philosophy

• Amusing Yourself First (08:03):
  Zucker emphasizes that their foundational approach was to "always" try to amuse themselves rather than perform for what they thought audiences wanted.

  “We started out doing comedy because we just wanted to laugh at stuff, and we did laugh at stuff, and we were class clowns.” — Zucker [08:03]

• The Kentucky Fried Theater Roots (08:14):
  The Zucker-Abrams-Zucker (ZAZ) team began with a small theater group in Wisconsin, eventually moving to Los Angeles for more exposure while refining their rapid-fire, relentless style.

• Relentless Procession of Gags (10:19):
  Mike observes Airplane! was different because it felt like "the lunatics were running the asylum," where the comedic creators were in charge, making the material for themselves—unfiltered.

• Collaborative Writing Process (14:10):
  Zucker describes the importance of collaboration with Jerry and Jim Abrams, where getting a laugh from the group meant a joke made the cut.

  “If I could get a laugh out of Jerry and Jim, I was as proud as I could be. Like, okay, I hit a single, and then, you know, Jerry or Jim would hit a triple and get me home.” — Zucker [14:10]

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Master Crash & The Rules of Spoof

• Teaching How to Be Funny? (14:31, 17:05): Zucker discusses his online course, Master Crash, which seeks to distill and systematize the rules behind spoof filmmaking—a process he admits is almost impossible but reveals they developed "15 rules" for their style over 40 years.

  “We had actual rules. We had 15 rules... but if you're doing this kind of spoof, our particular spoof, you have to follow the rules. Otherwise, it falls flat.” — Zucker [15:25]

• Can You Learn to Be Funny? (17:05): Zucker argues you can’t teach someone to be funny, but you can “teach a lot of things not to do.” The course is structured around identifying those mistakes.

  “The rules are things not to do. We can't tell you how to make a joke. That kind of has to happen naturally...” — Zucker [17:05]

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Spoof vs. Satire; Style and Boundaries

• Spoof vs. Satire (19:26): Zucker and Mike puzzle out the difference:

  • Spoof: “Directly derivative of some serious thing you can make funny,” often by reversing expectations and referencing familiar tropes.
  • Satire: Broader, can be much darker or more abstract; example given: Jonathan Swift’s “A Modest Proposal.”

• Background Gags & Rule Breaking (34:43, 36:15, 67:24): Zucker explains the perils of background gags not tied to the main action (“spear going into the map on the wall”—he says, “not funny. It doesn't get a laugh unless it's related”). He admits they broke their own rules but now teaches these lessons.

• Transgressive Humor: Then and Now (22:37, 22:49, 23:00): The team reflects on controversial gags, such as the “I like my coffee black like my men” line, and how, while audiences may laugh now, studios are much more risk-averse, leading to safer, less bold comedy.

  “You can't do that today ... they're all frightened ... that's why you just get the pablum now that's in theaters.” — Zucker [23:00]

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Influence, Process, and the Evolution of Comedy

• Actor Collaboration and Iconic Scenes (29:52): While reluctant to use actors’ ideas, some—like the hysterical woman being slapped or the bug stomping scene in Ruthless People—came from cast suggestions.

• Influences (49:36): Zucker was shaped by Mad Magazine, Groucho Marx, Woody Allen, and the Marx Brothers—valuing originality above all. He recalls the sense of novelty and irreverence those figures brought.

• Writing Secrets and the Role of Studios (51:15): Zucker reminisces about how they learned by doing and benefitted from studio executives at Paramount who were willing to take creative risks.

• State of Modern Comedy (43:37–44:33): Asserts that current TV comedies (e.g., South Park, Impractical Jokers) are funnier than mainstream movies, which have lost their edge due to ideological commitments and “axe grinding.”

  “You can't axe grind. It just – it ain't funny.” — Zucker [43:46]

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Davy Crockett, Obsessions, and Personal Tangents

• Davy Crockett Obsession (56:02–57:09): Zucker is a lifelong Crockett fan, even owning and donating valuable memorabilia to the Alamo Museum. He reflects on humor in history and his attempts to develop a Crockett movie blending seriousness and comedy.

• Class Pranks and the Spirit of Gags (90:44): Zucker tells the story of hiring an actor to impersonate a long-lost African exchange student at his high school reunion—a prank that taps into the same love of escalating bits and taking jokes to absurd, unexpected conclusions.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Gag Mentality:

  “The most famous joke in the movie, ‘don’t call me Shirley’—none of us remember [who wrote it] ... We didn’t care about individual credit.” — Zucker [25:34]

• Zucker’s Comedy Rule:

  “If you do want to make a point, you better [have] a joke to pay for it.” — Zucker [87:55]

• Directness about the Industry:

  “Paramount was run by Michael Eisner, Jeffrey Katzenberg, Frank Mancuso, Barry Diller. These guys were so great ... and it's such a contrast to the, you know, the idiots who run the studio today.” — Zucker [51:15]

• On Master Crash vs. MasterClass:

  “We named it Master Crash because, you know, I couldn't say master class.” — Zucker [24:57]

• On Legends of Talk:

  “The great talents, I think, realize when silences are the best. … Carson was also very funny. I mean, the way he told jokes, the way—if a joke bombed, he could make a joke out of that.” — Zucker [63:22]

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Fun & Strange Detours

• Spear in the Map (34:43):
  Zucker explains why certain random background gags don’t work—“not funny unless it’s related.”

• Davy Crockett Fandom (72:24):
  Zucker describes owning original Crockett letters and dressing as Crockett for meetups.

• Class Reunion Prank (90:44):
  Zucker and a friend perpetrated an elaborate, years-later ruse at their high school reunion, hiring an actor to play a returning Ugandan exchange student.

• Political Turns (44:54):
  Zucker openly discusses his political migration post-9/11 and the fallout with his family.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening reflections on Zucker's influence: 00:03–03:26
• Amusing Yourself & Kentucky Fried Theater: 08:03–08:59
• Rulemaking & Master Crash: 14:31–17:05
• Spoof vs. Satire: 19:26–21:24
• Background gags & writing process: 34:43–36:15, 67:24
• Collaborating with actors & memorable gags: 29:52–31:47
• Influences (Mad, Marx, Woody Allen): 49:36–50:52
• State of comedy & politics: 43:37–44:54, 46:04–49:08
• Davy Crockett obsession reveal: 56:02–57:09
• Class reunion prank story: 90:44–92:44
• Reflections on communal laughter & theaters: 78:29–79:10
• Final reflections on comedy and audience: 87:26–89:15
• Episode closing and classic Zucker quips: 95:20–95:29

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Conclusion

This episode is a sharp, revealing, and often riotous conversation that explores both the mechanics and magic of comedy. Zucker stands out not just for the classic films he created, but for the self-aware, collaborative, and ever-questioning approach he brings to humor. Whether reminiscing about the origins of iconic gags, musing on why some jokes endure and others flop, or describing pranks that never made it to the screen, Zucker offers a veritable masterclass—not just in ‘spoof’ but in enduring creative spirit.

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For more insights and to join David Zucker’s community:
Go to mastercrash.com — “It’s a free community… for other extras, it'll cost some money, but… you can get into the community and get a lot of it." [81:15]

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Favorite closing exchange:

“Thanks for the parking space, too.” — Zucker [95:20]
“Cut.” — Rowe [95:29]

Transcript

[A]

Chuck? Yes. Did you know Variety magazine says that David Zucker's the Naked Gun is the number one comedy of all time? No, I did not know that. I didn't either. You could fill a book with what we don't know. Folks, this is the way I heard it on Mike Row. My guest today is David Zucker. Yeah, he gave us the Naked Gun. He gave us Airplane. He gave us Police Squad. Police Squad. The Naked Gun two and a half, the smell of fear, Naked Gun 33 and a third, the final insult. Scary Movie. I mean, the guy is just. He just left. I just spent over an hour talking with him and I just realized, you know, what an impact his work had on me. And I hadn't really thought about it, really, until today.

[B]

Now, so much of our humor comes.

[A]

From seeing those movies.

[B]

It just all came up again.

[A]

And let me just say, he is super sharp. I don't know what his age is, but he's. He's 104. Well, you know what? He seems a little slow for 104.

[B]

But he just was really sharp, really funny. And again, it was like a time machine going back to the late 70s.

[A]

Early, early 80s, when, like, these movies.

[B]

Had a pivotal effect on our lives. I think in terms of our sense.

[A]

Of humor, we had never seen anything like this. Now it comes up and his response is really interesting. But for me, Blazing Saddles and Airplane were transformational because A, they broke all the rules, and B, they were genuinely funny in a surprising way. And see, they hold up as movies. They're still whole movies. It's not just a collection of gags, which a lot of people say they're movies. Are you okay? I'm okay.

[B]

There was a coughing fit during the episode as well.

[A]

He made me laugh, and now it's. I'm still. I'm still wrestling with the residual hacking. Well, I just want to say that by the like, as this goes on, he loosened up more and more and.

[B]

More and it became funnier and funnier. And you were falling off the chair a couple times.

[A]

Yeah, I thought it was funny from the get go. But the thing about this guy is he's so experienced and he's done so much and he's just come out with this thing. We'll plug it in the conversation. But it's called Master Crash, which essentially he attempts to do the impossible, which is to tell you how to be funny. Right. And he admits it's kind of impossible, but he does it anyway. So I guess maybe I should just leave it by saying the title of this episode, incidentally, is an homage to the last thing he said to me before he left, which was, thanks for the parking spot. You'll understand, I think, why it's so funny when he says it. At least I hope you will. If you don't, you probably didn't like airplane. And if you didn't like airplane, I mean, come on.

[B]

How.

[A]

I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, you're. You're listening to the wrong podcast. If you didn't like airplane. Apologies in advance for anything that could be deemed politically incorrect. I laughed at what I laughed at and I said what I said, and I stand by it all.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Having said all of that, David Zucker is very grateful for the parking spot. I'm grateful to him for coming by, and I'm grateful to you for listening. It all starts right after this. The key to closing the skills gap is not the federal government or corporate America or the excellent network of trade schools currently in place. All those entities will play a role for sure. But the best hope of reinvigorating the skilled trades on a national level is a non profit organization called SkillsUSA. This is the number one workforce development organization in the country. No one else is even close. And what they do to inspire kids to consider a career in the skilled trades is really unparalleled. I've worked with them for over a decade. I've attended their national competitions and I've seen firsthand lots of young men and women get hired right off the competition floor by big companies desperate for skilled workers. That's why I'm doing what I can to help SkillsUSA reach their goal of 1 million engaged members by 2030. That's just four years from now. They're about 480,000 now, I think so. It's a lot, but it can be done, and it's gotta be done. SkillsUSA develops more than technical skills too. Remember, they teach the workplace and the personal skills, soft skills that employers are also desperate for. They're preparing kids in every possible way for a career in the skilled trades. And you can help join the skilled trades movement by starting a chapter at your school. Or if that sounds too daunting, just volunteer for SkillsUSA. It's fun, it's rewarding, and it's important. You can get more [e-mail] Mike I'm talking skills us skills us skills usa. Oh, man.

[B]

Oh, look, there's my name. So you remember it.

[A]

Do we spell it right?

[B]

Are in in some kind of dementia? How old are you?

[A]

I never look in that direction. Honestly, like. Oh, my God. We got.

[B]

Oh, yeah. To remind you. So he is demented, then. Yeah.

[A]

Now, to be clear, it's Zucker. Zucker, like hooker, like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

See, I knew Jeff Zucker when he was running cnn, and of course, I called him Jeff Zucker.

[B]

And did he say anything?

[A]

Yeah, he. He said it's Zucker, he said, not Zucker, like Zucker, like hooker.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Same thing.

[B]

I met him once. Yeah, I just ran into Once. I don't know. Everybody's nice when you meet them, you know?

[A]

Now, you said I could ask you anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You said to ignore all the things your publicist sent over.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Warning me to avoid.

[B]

Right, yeah.

[A]

Okay, good. Hey, it's really terrific to meet you.

[B]

Thank you. Are we on?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we're on.

[B]

You know, you could have warned me.

[A]

Well, that's. You know. Would you have warned me?

[B]

No.

[A]

Exactly. So it's 1980. I'm sitting in a theater probably at Golden Ring Mall, where we used to work as ushers for United Artists.

[B]

Yeah. And what city was this?

[A]

Baltimore.

[B]

In Baltimore.

[A]

Baltimore. Now, I just got to get this stuff out of the way. I'm sure you're sick of talking about it, hearing about it, dining out on it. Call it what you will, but there's a moment in an airplane where Julia Hagerty said. He says to her, you know, I lost six men. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, and she says, seven, Lieutenant Zip died this morning. But you don't cut back to him. You stay on her. And all we see fly through the screen is the contents of whatever fluid he had in his mouth.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I started to laugh at it. And not since Blazing Saddles have I, like, really lost my entire composure in a theater over just a silly little moment like that. But I couldn't recover, David. I mean, I laughed for about. I don't know, it felt like the rest of the movie, but, I mean, out of control for 10 minutes. And everybody around me started to laugh as a result of it.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

Yeah. It was just a simple little thing, and I wanted to thank you for it, because I never forgotten it, and it made me want to ask. Well, not at the moment, but right now it makes me want to ask you. Were you mostly trying to amuse yourself with that whole thing?

[B]

Always. I mean, we just. We started out doing comedy because we just wanted to laugh at stuff, and we did laugh at stuff, and we were class clowns and.

[A]

Wisconsin.

[B]

Right, In Wisconsin. We grew up in the. The first Suburb north called Shorewood. And yeah, we were, you know, and we weren't even the funniest guys in our class. There was at least six guys who I thought were funnier than we were, but they all were able to find jobs and, you know, be lawyers and whatever. And we kind of pursued it. We weren't really wanting to do, you know, have jobs. So we started a small theater called Kentucky Fried Theater on the University of Wiscons campus. And then that was a huge hit for a year, but we were only able to charge a dollar. And so we moved the whole show in a U Haul truck west to LA and set up a show on a theater on Pico Boulevard.

[A]

God, I can still see it, man. Chuck, do you remember.

[B]

Are you aware of the penal codes in this state? Oh, did you see the live show? No, that was Kentucky movie. But we did that gag on stage. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

I just remember, like, I think the first time I saw boobs on the big screen, they were kind of blurry because the steam. But it was the girl in the shower. Oh, yeah. I think it was young Catholic high school girls in trouble.

[B]

Catholic high school girls in trouble.

[A]

Catholic high school girls in trouble. Right. And that was what, late 70s?

[B]

77.

[A]

Scandalous, man. We were young.

[B]

And a lot of that. We shouldn't have been seeing that. And a lot of that cool stuff was contributed by John Landis, who directed it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, yeah, John was fabulous. And, you know, it was.

[A]

Was that before Animal House or after.

[B]

Before Animal House. He got Animal House because, you know, the. Our script supervisor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whose name was Katherine Hooten, was the girlfriend of one of the. One of the Universal executives and told him, these guys are doing this insane comedy, and I'm on the set every day and John Landis is directing, and you should consider them for Animal House. And that's what happened to Cheese. Yeah.

[A]

Way leads on the way. I ask you this. Chuck is sick of hearing me talk about it, but the idea of comedians in particular, but really any performer who's trying first to please themselves, or in your case, amuse, is to me, there's like a real difference between that sensibility and the kind of person who is really trying to understand the audience and then trying to feed the audience and trying to do whatever I don't know an executive or producer or an audience might expect. It was Airplane more than anything else. That just overwhelmed me with the sense that, like, the lunatics were running the asylum, no one was getting permission for anything, and just a bunch of guys who were all in on the joke, had somehow gotten permission to do whatever the hell they wanted, whatever made them laugh, and just kept, kept doing it. Like it's just the most relentless procession of gags I'd ever seen. And to this day, I can't believe you got away with it.

[B]

Well, I think the pace came. Well, I don't think the pace. I know the pace came from doing our theater. Cause we were the actors in our Kentucky Bride theater. We did a show in LA called My Nose. Just so our listing in the weekly LA Times calendar section would say My Nose runs continuously. And that's the kind of stuff that we would do. And, and, and so we were always not taking anything seriously. I think that's, you know, right through grade school and high school, I remember I was not taking anything seriously.

[A]

So the famous exchange and the thing that I, to this day, I'm so glad to be able to ask you this question. But when it's Roger, Roger, with your. Clarence. Clarence, check your vector. Victor. Right. Did that joke come when you realized these guys names would lend itself to it? Or did the joke form and then someone say, oh shit, no, we named these, we have to name them?

[B]

No, no, we named the characters because we wanted to make those jokes. Clarence, Clarence, Vector, Victor, Roger, all that stuff. We designed the joke like that and it became a version of who's on First? We also did a similar take on that kind of concept in Police Squad, the TV series where Frank Drebin, Leslie Nielsen questions the lady and said, it's a whole who's on first? Routine.

[A]

Yeah, but I mean, I would think Evan Costello sat down and said, okay, here's the routine. This is how it's gonna work. It'll be funny if we do this, then this, then this. So like they start with the end goal in mind. You named the central characters in the movie?

[B]

Well, yeah.

[A]

In such a way that you could make one gag.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it was. But then, and then after that, it wasn't a joke anymore. I mean, he was just named. I think at one time the stewardess says, I'm standing over, over, over. So, yeah, so, you know, we came back and did a little more of a twist on it. But you know, these things just kind of happen. It just, it developed. And when you have three of us writing, you get, you know, I could never write this alone. You know, it so helps to have a trio. And everybody would, you know, put out, try a joke and if it got a laugh, it was in. You know, we just, we knew it Was funny if the other.

[A]

If it got a laugh. Among your triumvirate.

[B]

Among the triumvirate, exactly.

[A]

Which means you're just trying to amuse yourselves. That's the thing.

[B]

Absolutely. If I could get a laugh out of Jerry and Jim, I was as proud as I could be. Like, okay, I hit a single, and then, you know, Jerry or Jim would hit a triple and get me home.

[A]

Well, that's how you win games.

[B]

That's how you win games.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You get rubles. Yes.

[A]

Okay, so now that that's out of the way, what are you doing these days, man? I know there's a masterclass.

[B]

Yeah, I have the Mastercrash. Yes. You go to mastercrash.com. i'm teaching an online course in spoof humor and inspired by the dreadful Naked Gun 4, which you're not supposed to ask me about.

[A]

I understand it's inspiring.

[B]

I don't know why you brought it up.

[A]

You brought it up.

[B]

Can this be. Can you go back and.

[A]

No.

[B]

And erase.

[A]

No.

[B]

We're lucky. I'm gonna start recording now. Okay. Thank you, Chuck. Yeah, but when other people try to do this stuff, first of all, it looks easy. Evidently. So people are doing it. They did Airplane two. They did. I don't know. There was a movie called Loaded Weapon. There was a Angie Tribeca tv. You know, all this stuff, they think they're doing it, but they don't know the rules. And Jerry and Jim and I developed this over 40 years.

[A]

You had actual rules?

[B]

We had actual rules. We had 15 rules. And this isn't to say that everybody has to follow our rules, but if you're doing this kind of spoof, our particular spoof, you have to follow the rules. Otherwise it falls flat. It's embarrassing. Now, Mike Myers did a spoof of James Bond movies in Austin Powers. Great job. Funny movie. The Wayans brothers did scary movies spoof on horror movies. They did it in their own style. Brilliant, wonderful movies. And then they didn't want to do 4 and 5. So Bob Weinstein called me and said, do you want to do this? And I said, well, if the Wayans aren't doing it, then I'd be glad to do it, but in my style. And so scary 3 and 4 are a lot different than 1 and 2.

[A]

So did the Wayans follow the rules? Whether or not they knew they.

[B]

No, they didn't need to follow them. You know, the Wayans are. Are brilliant on their own.

[A]

Well, if you can be brilliant and make a great funny spoof without following the rules, why do you need the rules?

[B]

Well, yeah. Nobody needs the rules, and they don't need to take my course. In fact, I advise against it.

[A]

You're a terrible salesman.

[B]

It's just a waste of money.

[A]

Terrible salesman.

[B]

Yeah, well, I'd rather sell pillows.

[A]

Was it fun to do?

[B]

Because this course was great. Yeah, no, we did one episode for each rule, but we also have a glossary of terms. That's like over a hundred terms that we've used throughout all the movies that we've done.

[A]

Well, this is a stupid question then.

[B]

Well, I'm glad to answer.

[A]

Stupid question. Well, I mean, I was gonna like, how do you. Can you learn to be funny?

[B]

You can and you can't. If you're naturally funny and want to do spoof, I think you can learn a lot of things not to do. The rules are things not to do. We can't tell you how to make a joke. That kind of has to happen naturally, but it's not. But Jerry and Jim and I aren't the only ones who could do it. Pat Proft could do it. Craig Mason was great at it. Mike McManus, these are the guys that I'm writing with now. Proft and Mason I'm writing with now. And I have. I wrote a script, film noir, great love story, comedy set in 1949. And it's really spoof 2.0.

[A]

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[B]

Now.

[A]

What's the difference between a spoof and a satire?

[B]

I don't know. It's like. I don't know too many terms. I don't know. You know, Jim Abrams used to know. We'd be asked that, and I would kind of. I don't really know. But Jim knew, but he died, so it's lost with him now.

[A]

I thought. I always thought of satire.

[B]

Like, is Blazing Saddles satire, or is it a spoof?

[A]

That's. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, see, I.

[A]

But when. What's his name? Thomas? Was it Swift? Jonathan Swift? Maybe A Modest Proposal, that famous essay that talked during the potato famine about how to prepare your infant for consumption because there's nothing else to eat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's basically like a recipe on how to eat your kid. And it was so dark and so crazy.

[B]

It's dark. It's satire. It's not really a spoof on something.

[A]

It's not a spoof. That's satire.

[B]

Okay. Right. Spoof. Has to be. And you're helping me here define this. I think spoof is directly derivative of some serious thing that you can make funny. And I think Mad magazine used to do an article, every magazine called Scenes we'd like to See.

[A]

In Movies.

[B]

Yeah, in movies. So I think that was spoof, I guess. Right.

[A]

Because it's based on an expectation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a scene you've already seen. But what I'd like to see is a. Some element of it tweaked so you recognize the original.

[B]

I remember a long time ago, a reviewer said about our show is that basically what they do is set up a familiar scene and then reverse the viewer's expectation of the outcome. So, you know, not to get too technical, but that's because I can get technical and be really unfunny fast.

[A]

Bring it, man. Bring it. No, I like no to see. I'm drawing a blank on the guy's name who played Ted in Airplane.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Robert Hayes.

[A]

Right, Hayes. To see the fluid in his mouth flying. It was a spit take. But you didn't see the guy spit.

[B]

Yeah. Now, that wasn't satire or spoof. That's just a gag. And it's part of what I'm teaching And directing is that not to point out the joke. And the same thing happens when Leslie Nielsen is in the passenger cabin working on a patient and all you see is the woman's legs and he's got a speculum and she's in the stirrups. And Leslie says, what the hell's going on up there? And we never point to it. So that joke of the spit take is the most obvious thing to do, is to show him doing the spit take.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But Mel Brooks did that. I don't want to play sloppy seconds.

[A]

So that's why it's a spoof, because you didn't want to imitate Mel, but in a way you paid homage, I think.

[B]

It has nothing to do with spoof or satire. It's just a gag. Just a gag. Some things are just gags and not a spoof.

[A]

When that little 12 year old girl turned to that 12 year old boy and said, I'll take my coffee black like my men. Yeah, okay, now, I don't know if you can do that today.

[B]

Well, you're talking about two different things. It could be. I mean, audiences would still laugh, but the studio boardrooms would say, oh, no, that's too much.

[A]

You know?

[B]

You know, and that's too much. You can't do that. They're all frightened. And that's why you just get the Pablum. Now that's in theaters. There's nothing funny. If you want to see funny, go to tv. Watch south park or Impractical Jokers.

[A]

So, okay. Both so interesting. I think south park will be remembered as the greatest satire.

[B]

You know, they're great. And I had the opportunity to work with them in basketball and it was so fun. So I really got to know those guys.

[A]

Did you see the documentary they put out? It's called Six Days Till Air.

[B]

Yeah. No, I did not.

[A]

You're welcome. You're gonna love this. I don't know it applies to any of your rules, but it's just. They're coming back from winning the Grammy for Book of Mormon. Yeah, okay. They're baked out of their minds. They land in la, they get on skateboards and they go to work. The first episode of the first season is due in six days and they.

[B]

Had to do it.

[A]

They got nothing now. Simpsons takes like a year and a half from script to screen. Oh, really?

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

The animation style is totally different. The writer's room's different. This writer's room is Trey and Matt. And I think Bill Hader is sitting there. He doesn't do much. It's so much, Trey. But within six days, they've got to navigate a script, get it through S and P, which is tough because I think this one is Human Centipede. Right. When the people are stitched together.

[B]

I don't even know what S and P is.

[A]

Standards of practice. Oh, okay.

[B]

I don't know any. You'd be surprised. It's shit that I don't know.

[A]

I mean, I. Yeah, I mean this again. You're trying to sell a course on comedy and telling me you could fill a book with what you don't know, right?

[B]

No, I don't know anything. So, yeah, we're trying to get people's money to sign up for this course, at least.

[A]

Now, did you name it Master Crash?

[B]

Yeah, we named it Master Crash because, you know, I couldn't say master class.

[A]

So now it's an Asian job.

[B]

I had a manager.

[A]

I don't think you can make that.

[B]

Oh, I don't think you could do it. I almost did a spit take right there.

[A]

Well, Master Crash.

[B]

Yeah, well, you're making it into some kind of racist.

[A]

No, I think you did. I think you wanted me to think it and then you wanted.

[B]

I think we'll have to research this and see who was the original racist here.

[A]

Back to the 12 year old girl.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Whose idea is it for her to turn to this kid who I'm assuming is 10 or 12 years old, dressed in a three piece suit and tell him she likes her coffee like she likes her man?

[B]

Well, normally we don't remember who came up with what. I mean, the most famous joke in the movie, don't call me Shirley. None of us remember because we never made a thing out of, you know, who wrote what. And it really helped the collaboration because we didn't care about individual credit. It was only zaz. We wanted to succeed as a trio. It was great. But there are some jokes that I know that Jim Abrams wrote, and that's one of them, because what would happen is we'd all sit around a table and Jim would be on the typewriter and he would type up everything. And then he'd show Jerry and me what he had just typed. And so we just had I take it black or something, and Jim typed in I take it black like my men. And Jerry and I cracked up and all that stuff. We thought, well, we probably can't do that. And then we thought for another 30 seconds and why not? Of course we'll do it. And the same with Jim came up with. I remember how he used to hold me and how I used to sit on your face and wriggle. And that was Jim. So I remember all those really, really bad lines were, Jim, it's not bad, though.

[A]

I mean. No, no. I mean, what's funny?

[B]

Naughty.

[A]

Naughty. Yeah, I mean, it looked so. But in that case, it wasn't the line. I mean, like, you can't have that exchange between full grown adults. You could. It just wouldn't be funny.

[B]

It wouldn't be funny, exactly. Just like a lot of the stuff between Peter Graves and the little boy couldn't be done with comedians. You couldn't. You know, what if that were Dom DeLuise, I mean, or even Chevy Chase, it would have been creepy. But.

[A]

Well, how did you get Peter Graves to say yes to this?

[B]

Well, he originally, he turned it down. We just. And when we found out later, he just threw the script across the room and said, this is a worst piece of trash. Yeah. Repulsed. And then, you know, years later, I had much more experience with Actors Producers Studios. I realized you give an actor a script to read and they just read their own parts.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so he must have been horrified. He appeared that the character was a pedophile. And we were saying, oh, how funny is this?

[A]

You like gladiator movies, Johnny? Ever seen a grown man naked?

[B]

Anyways.

[A]

Kidding me.

[B]

Yeah, right? No, he said. And evidently, you know, his daughter read the script, who was probably, you know, 17 at the time. She thought it was hilarious. His wife read the script, she thought it was funny. And then Howard Koch, our executive producer, who was at the time, you know, 62, which was to me, just so old I couldn't believe. Anyways, he knew all these guys. So he said, peter, why don't you come in and meet the boys? We were called the boys at the time. And you're not famous yet. We're not famous, no. We're, you know, somewhat known from Kentucky Fried Movie, but I think Landis got most of the publicity. But so he came and meet us and I think he expected, you know, some just drugged out weirdos.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And we were actually quite preppy, you know, not many years out of Wisconsin, and. But yeah, we had written this stuff. And so we convinced him that we knew what we were doing even though we had never directed before. And so all these guys made a leap of faith. Robert Stack wanted to know, well, who else is coming to the party? That's how he put it. And so once Lloyd and Peter and Leslie signed on, then Stack came on, and then they offered Stack. I Think low money, like 30,000 and a piece of the profits. He had no faith at all. A great guy, by the way, but he just. No, no, I'll take the 50 grand. Yeah.

[A]

So how often I get. You guys are team, but once the cast trusts you and once everybody's in on the joke and they all kind of get where they're going. Did ideas ever come from Leslie or Lloyd?

[B]

Normally, I don't like to take any ideas from actors, but actually, one of the actresses, the woman who was the one who became the hysterical woman, she suggested, why don't they slap me? And we didn't have that in the script. We didn't think of it. And so we said, okay, you know, slap. And then somehow this. I don't remember. I wish I did remember. Either Leslie thought of this himself, or we told him to do it. But it's one of the funniest gags in the movie. He slaps her, and then he slaps her again.

[A]

And then you see the line of people.

[B]

And the line of people was also suggested by somebody so insane. How about doing that? And we said, yeah, let's do that. We sent out the prop lady, and she brought in the whips and the chains and the bats and brass.

[A]

It's like an Indian with a tomahawk.

[B]

It happens so infrequently that we don't do any improvisation because we don't use comedians. Right. And sometimes, though, an actor will come up with a suggestion. Judge Reinhold on Ruthless People, he was supposed to pretend that he was ruthless and he was giving the speech about how ruthless was. And he scoops up a bug and puts it outside the door and closes the door. And so. And Judge suggested to me, why don't I open the door again and stomp on the bug? And I said, no, that won't be funny. Like, I knew. Like, you know, it's like, you get to be a director, you get full of yourself. Like, you know. And I said, but it couldn't hurt to try because just. Just doing another take. The lighting setup's there. We can all. We let the audience decide. So he did it. Everyone laughed. And at the preview, they laughed. And that's why that's in the movie.

[A]

All right. Was it a real bug?

[B]

No. No, I don't think so.

[A]

Like, was. So there's no bug wrangler. There's no.

[B]

No bug was harmed during the.

[A]

That's what I'm looking at.

[B]

During the making of this motion picture. Yeah. Dumb.

[A]

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[B]

Yes, netsuite. I said netsuite.com.

[A]

He said netsuite.com/mike. I mean, look, I'm not a comedy director. I don't know about your rules, but if it were me and the credits, I might have put. No bug was hard.

[B]

Oh, that's all. Well, we did put jokes in the credits, but yeah, I don't think that's a particular.

[A]

Who was the first to put bloopers in the credits? I remember like Cannonball Run and oh, the first time I remember seeing, I.

[B]

Don'T know, we, we did not do that. But all that stuff happened after. After and no, I think after Airplane. Yeah, it's putting jokes in the credits.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And also putting a gag at the end of the credits. We put the guy in the cab saying, well, give him 15 more minutes, but that's it.

[A]

For every ridiculous non sequitur, apropos of nothing moment, like the spear going into the map on the wall. Inexplicable to me.

[B]

Right. And that's one of the things I teach about in my course, is not to do that.

[A]

And yet.

[B]

Well, we did it. But I think it wasn't, it wasn't the greatest decision because we thought background stuff was funny. It's not funny. It doesn't get a laugh unless it's related. So that's just one of the things. So why not?

[A]

Chuck, did you laugh when that spear went sailing into the wall?

[B]

Yes, I did. Yes. Were you high? Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. See, we don't do stuff just because we're not high when we write the stuff. So we can't assume that we really weren't. We just had coffee. Don't give me that look.

[A]

How much coffee. All the coffee. We'd actually.

[B]

We'd get together at 9am we'd drink coffee. We'd talk with Airplane. We talked about Watergate. We would talk about Watergate. And then at 10, we'd start writing.

[A]

Okay, Spear goes in the wall. Not sequitur. Not funny. Rule breaker Robert Stack takes off his sunglasses.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

And there's another pair of smaller sunglasses.

[B]

We did that on stage.

[A]

Why is that funny?

[B]

The gag was written by Pat Proft. And I guess because it's silly and unexpected.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I can't believe you're asking me why that was funny.

[A]

You have the master crash. You have master crash.

[B]

Yes, I have master crash. And so I presumably know what I'm doing.

[A]

All right, I think you. Well, obviously I think you do, but I'm just trying to like the. Because you made a distinction between a gag and a joke. Satire versus spoof.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So there are all these things, but the most relatable gag that I remember in Airplane is when Ted is just spilling his guts and the woman hangs herself.

[B]

Yeah. Everybody's been somewhere when they've been talked to death.

[A]

Everybody. Yeah, everybody.

[B]

And on a plane, you're trapped.

[A]

Right. So, like, in that moment, okay, that's a gag. That's funny. That's a heck of a thing. But in the same way, you got a line of people waiting to slap the hysterical woman. Now we go to our Japanese gentleman fully dressed in World War II garb.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Who commits? Harry Carey.

[B]

Right. What's your question? Come out with it.

[A]

Why is it funny to see a man commit suicide? Oh, why is it funny when a woman hangs herself? Like, if you just reduce the thing to its various component parts, it's the opposite of funny. Yeah, but when you create a scene.

[B]

And nothing is literal or everything is literal, it's just. We just do it. And the more outrageous it is, and I find this in my personal life, I go to restaurants and I start engaging with strangers. And if I'm outrageous enough, people know it's a gag.

[A]

But if you're not, it's just embarrassment. Call the cops.

[B]

Yeah. I've also embarrassed myself, too.

[A]

My dad can't get into an elevator without chatting up who's ever in there. Doesn't matter how many, but he wants to know where they're headed.

[B]

Real. But is your dad interesting, or is he just boring these people that they want to.

[A]

I think he's interesting.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean, he's 93.

[B]

Oh, that's great. Is he still doing fine?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's great. He's hanging tough, but he's the kind of guy, he walks. It was. My mom's a writer, and she wrote a very funny story, but it was around Christmas, and he goes in the elevator, it's crowded, and there's a big guy in there with a beard. And, you know, my dad's, like, got the reindeer parked out, bare back. You know, it's just awful. Yeah. And they're like nine people, and they're all, like, looking at this. And the big guy. My poor mother is shrinking, but she's like, this is either going to be the longest elevator ride ever, but the guy turns and makes another Santa joke.

[B]

Oh, well, that's good.

[A]

So what's good about it is everybody else in the elevator now relaxes and laughs because somehow or another we have permission. Right. But for those first couple of seconds, like in Curb youb Enthusiasm, they're like all these moments that really are just so uncomfortable. And then I guess it's, I don't know, catharsis or something. And then we get permission to laugh.

[B]

I think Larry David deals directly in that uncomfortable stuff, which he's so good at.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm sure most of that stuff is things that really happened to him, as in Seinfeld. Most of the stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I never watched any sitcoms except for Seinfeld and. And also some of Curb and some of. Garry Shandling was great.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The original. That. Remember the original theme song.

[B]

Yeah. Gary Shandling show. Oh, he was so great.

[A]

Oh, my God. God.

[B]

And. But I don't watch any other television except that. And, you know, today I watch Impractical Jokers.

[A]

That's what makes you laugh?

[B]

That's what makes me laugh. It makes me laugh so hard. Yeah.

[A]

Look, I'm tempted to ask why, but I'm going to offend you again.

[B]

Well, those guys are funny. I mean, they're. And they interact with real people and they prank themselves, and, you know, you just see that they're having such obvious fun and they laugh at themselves. I mean, everything about them is.

[A]

Well, that goes back to my first, I think, super prescient observation, which was, you amuse yourself. Airplane was an attempt to amuse yourself.

[B]

Exactly. And these guys, impractical jokers, obviously are. They're amusing themselves. They're doing it because they think.

[A]

And so. And so are Trey and Matt.

[B]

That's right. Yeah.

[A]

But they're awfully smart about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

I've had the pleasure of getting to know both of those teams.

[A]

I watched those guys interview each other on a pig farm while they were feeding bacon to the hogs.

[B]

Oh, Matt and Trey.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, really? I have.

[A]

They're just doing like a stand up in between throw into a thing. And they're just sitting there with pigs, feeding the pigs. Pigs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They don't really acknowledge it. They just do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, you know, suddenly you're one of those people in the elevator trying to figure out, do I have permission to laugh at this? Can I laugh at the Japanese gentleman for.

[B]

Committing hairy Carry on?

[A]

I'm not sure. Except I was sure in the theater and I did. Yeah.

[B]

It comes from a really good place that they genuinely think is funny and they're original and they're not trying to copy anybody like other people today are.

[A]

Were you a fan? I'm asking this because. What part of Wisconsin you're in?

[B]

Milwaukee. Milwaukee. And I went to. I graduated from University of Wisconsin.

[A]

That's Madison.

[B]

Madison.

[A]

Did you know the Onion guys?

[B]

I didn't know them. I met some of them later because we did a movie with them. My partner Gil Netter and I, we had Zucker Netter Productions. And Gil worked out this deal with the. With the Onion to do the Onion movie. And so that's. We did that.

[A]

You mentioned Mad magazine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For me, when I was in the very early 90s, one of the greatest moments of my misspent career was learning that the editor at the Onion was taping my segments on the QVC cable shopping channel in the middle of the night. And he created a cartoon called the Endless Nights of Rick Nobles, which was based on things I would say in the middle of the night. And I was so flattered by that because to me, the Onion was the perfect mix of irreverence and subversion. And he would use like. This cartoon was meant to be an example to the staff writers. He was like, here's a guy on TV who's clearly trying to get fired. I want you to write with that same goal.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

So my question is what happened to the Onion? And how come the Babylon Bee is funnier today?

[B]

Oh, I think it's a lot. Because what happened to Saturday Night Live?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

They were committed to an ideology rather than to jokes, and so the Babylon Bee is much funnier. I've gotten to know some of those guys, and I subscribe. I love it. It makes me laugh. There's so good. They're just. Because their targets are better, you know, just. How do you defend AOC and. And Chuck Schumer? You see, you can't. You have to. And Biden, I mean, you just. You're stuck defending those guys. That's not very funny. No, there's nothing to. To laugh at.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And when I think of snl, I mean, occasionally they've done some good stuff, but I remember when Hillary lost, they did an episode where these two characters on snl, they were kind of sad, and it was a whole. Do you remember this?

[A]

David McKinnon, who was funny as hell, sat at the piano and played like a eulogy.

[B]

Where's the joke?

[A]

There's no joke.

[B]

Yeah, there's no joke. And this is another thing I teach in my course is axe grinding. You can't axe grind. It's just. It ain't funny.

[A]

Not for a laugh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I did a movie, An American Carol, which, you know, made fun of Michael Moore, and it was funny, but I think it was a bit of axe grinding. So, you know, to the extent that it was axe grinding, I mean, I really was conscious I had to pay for every political point I was making by a joke. It had to be a joke.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, I wrote it. I think I mentioned my friend Louis Friedman, who's a total lefty, and we just loved making movies together, so. And he was great writing jokes for that.

[A]

Well, since you brought it up.

[B]

No, I don't want to talk about it, though.

[A]

Michael.

[B]

Let's get his publicism on the line. Yeah.

[A]

No, I mean. I mean, Wisconsin is about as blue as blue state gets.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you're coming out of the university system. I'm assuming your ideology was what it was, but you've made no great secret of.

[B]

No, it's not a secret. I'm out.

[A]

And what happened?

[B]

You know, we grew up in a sea of blue there. My entire extended Zucker family, Democrats, and some of them are very far left and continue to be everybody. I'm the only one. You know, I actually did an interview for the Milwaukee Journal. This is when I had first crossed over to the dark side in like 2000, 2004, I think I did an ad against John Kerry and the Milwaukee Journal interviewed me. And I was interviewed on the radio station there. And my mom didn't care about the radio station, but it was in the Milwaukee Journal, all her friends read it, that her son became a Republican. And I called up, I wanted to kind of apologize and I said, mom, I'm sorry, but I guess I'm the black sheep of the family. And she said, oh, no, no, you do a lot of good things too. Dumb.

[A]

The pop culture definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting to get a different result. There's a lot of truth in that. But there are exceptions. Let's say you're a 50 year old guy who has worked out for decades, always eaten responsibly, but is suddenly alarmed to notice that you're low on energy and putting on weight. You're doing the same things you've always done, but now you're not getting the results that you used to get. Why? Well, it's because you're old, dude. And because your metabolism, your metabolism doesn't give a damn about all your healthy habits. Which is why you might want to consider Boost and burn from EmDrive. EmDrive uses the highest quality ingredients that exist. They're a supplement made right here in America. They've been around for almost 20 years and they have thousands of satisfied. I just talked to their CEO the other day who took over the business from his dad and he is committed to making the absolute highest quality supplement for men of a certain age. So, guys, if you're older than you've ever been but still exercising and still watching what you eat but not getting the results you used to, you're not insane. Don't take it from me. You're in good company. Keep making good choices, but try EM Drive, Boost and Burn and get yourself back on track. That's m like Mike. Drive for men.com mdriveformen.com and you know.

[B]

For years after my dad sank into dementia, my mom continued to vote for Democrats for him. So even when my mom died, you know, it's like I said, yeah, everybody said, I'm so sorry and, you know, sorry for your loss. I said, yeah, But I always look on the bright side as, you know, one less vote for the Democrats. So, you know, because, you know, if someone isn't run over by a bus and they live till 86 or 87, you know, don't ask me that when I'm 86 or 87. I'm gonna think, of course. And I'm still. Yeah, I'm not gonna die now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it's. My whole family is. But I changed, I think, after 9 11. There are a lot of people who were 911 conservatives. And I saw how both sides reacted to that. And Clinton, I think, said, what did we do to deserve this? What did we do to deserve it? And so being just practical and I'm not that bright. I mean, I'm bright, but, you know, I just. Why would this. This is pure evil. And the right was saying this. Pure evil. And people on the right actually used the E word. I've had friends, I've had girlfriends who said, no, there's no. People aren't evil. Oh, yeah, that relationship didn't last. But, Mike, I don't want to get into my personal life. Can you keep this?

[A]

Fine, fine, fine.

[B]

Just. Yeah, politics and why I hate Naked Gun 4.

[A]

And Master Crash and the.

[B]

Pronunciation of my name.

[A]

Yes. All right. I've heard lots of people talk about your influence on them and obviously the influence of your work and so forth, and I'm sure that's terribly gratifying for you, but who, like, who really influenced you? Who was funny?

[B]

Oh, you know, we were teenagers. We loved Mad Magazine, the Marx Brothers, Woody Allen. That's who we loved. And more than anything, we would laugh at serious movies. And what we would do is we would dub in our own voices.

[A]

So Mystery Science Theater must have just chapped your ass.

[B]

I never watched it.

[A]

Really? That's what that.

[B]

I mean, yeah, but that's what they.

[A]

Were doing, like Zero Hour, was it?

[B]

Yeah, Zero. We. We saw Zero Hour and we thought. And because we were taping late night movies to get the commercials, and one morning.

[A]

What, because you were lampooning.

[B]

We were making fun of commercials. So we saw this movie and we started getting more interested in the movie than the commercials. And we thought, why don't we spoof this movie? And originally, the first airplane script was called the Late show, and it was the Zero Hour, the airplane story with commercials, as if it were a late night movie. And so we gave it to a friend of ours for a first read, and he said, I like the script, but I think the commercials. I was getting into the story. Commercials interrupted it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we axed the commercials and we just. That's how Airplane. I mean, it started out. And this. Our whole book. Surely youy Can't Be Serious, which you can get on Amazon. The main theme is we didn't know what we were Doing. We kind of learned as we went. We were just raw guys who came.

[A]

Up with the COVID art. That's Paramount. That was Paramount.

[B]

Brilliant studio run by Michael Eisner, Jeffrey Katzenberg, Frank Mancuso, Barry Diller. These guys were so great.

[A]

Eisner took the chance on you.

[B]

Eisner took the chance. And it's such a contrast to the, you know, the idiots who run the studio today.

[A]

Dude, people do listen to this podcast.

[B]

Oh, I heard that. What, you have a dozen people.

[A]

Literally.

[B]

This is not going to get out, is it?

[A]

But they all work at Paramount. They're all on the board.

[B]

I didn't name names. Actually, you know what I did? I sent a letter, registered mail to David Ellison, who took over Paramount, and I enclosed a dollar bill in it, and I said, Dear Mr. Ellison, I'll bet you a dollar you don't know how Paramount ruined the Naked Gun franchise. Never heard back, but maybe he'll get an event. I don't know. You know?

[A]

Yeah, there was a truly glorious moment. I don't know if the window is shut yet, but in the bulk mail business, when you would get these envelopes, you know, the postage is paid. They want you to fill out a thing and you just send it back, right?

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

We was getting inundated with this was in the early 90s, and my roommate and I would take a box and fill it with rocks and just put the envelope on the top and, you know, seal it and take it to the post office. And they have to ship it.

[B]

They do. Even if you don't pay the postage for the box of rocks, the postage.

[A]

Is due by the recipient. Oh, it's prepaid.

[B]

Oh, it's prepaid.

[A]

So we were sending back 60 pounds of rocks.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

And that's how you stop getting the junk. But unlike you, you know, we didn't film it and then take it to a studio and go, hey, what if two kids go on this adventure and upset the recipients to the point that they put a hit out on it?

[B]

It's a brilliant idea. But the studio today would have said, yeah, that's a great idea, but we're gonna give it to Seth McMurray Farin to ruin it.

[A]

Oh, no. So not a big Family Guy fan?

[B]

No. In fact. Oh, God, you're gonna get me in trouble.

[A]

You said, ask me anything. You said you don't care.

[B]

But I didn't mean that.

[A]

I don't want you to violate any of your rules either.

[B]

No, Okay. I just say, not a Family Guy fan in Fact, why don't I be positive I'm a glass half full guy?

[A]

I'm positive. I'm not.

[B]

I love South Park.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah. I just. I love good stuff, good original things. Yeah.

[A]

I had a part in Family Guy. No, it was American Dad. It was a thing. Yeah, I played Brick, the meter maid.

[B]

So you weren't even good enough for Family Guy?

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, my God, Talk about Lowell. God, Mike, I wouldn't tell that story.

[A]

Look, I'm not proud of it. My real disappointment is at when Dirty Jobs was killing it. I wanted south park to do an artificial insemination segment where maybe Cartman got artificially inseminated and gave birth to something out his butt.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which, of course, he would do. Because the whole AI thing, it kind of saved my career. And I thought it would have been fun, but they. They didn't bite, you know?

[B]

And you learned that nothing could save.

[A]

Your career at this point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, clearly.

[B]

Yeah. All right, here we are. I'm glad to be with you on the way down.

[A]

Okay, so Mad Magazine, Groucho Marx.

[B]

Groucho Marx. We were exposed to the Marx Brothers in college. They would do these huge screenings in big lecture halls. 600, 800, you know, stoned kids watching Groucho and Harper.

[A]

Dude, for people born, you know, in a prior century, whatever. What was it about Groucho? Like, what made him. Why do people say so and so and so and so was the Groucho Marx of.

[B]

Oh, yeah, he was just. He was such an original. Again, I'm a fan of anybody original. And I don't like people who aren't original. So Groucho was. There was nothing like him before. And there was no one like Woody Allen before. There was no one like Chaplin before. So these guys. And the same thing with, you know, Ben Franklin, Davy Crockett and Will Rogers. They were all such original humorists. And, you know, Ben Franklin was a satirist.

[A]

Big time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He wrote a book called Fart Proudly.

[B]

I did not know that.

[A]

I have it. It's thin. It's an easy read. But he starts by talking about the unintended consequences of not passing wind and then the joys of doing so.

[B]

I didn't know this. Franklin was great. You know, Crockett was like a standup comedian.

[A]

Why has no one made a movie about David?

[B]

Well, I tried, but again, I didn't know what I was doing. And the script wasn't good. And, you know, I even. And Spielberg was a big Crocket fan.

[A]

Wait a minute. Big Alamo did you want to make a comedy about.

[B]

I wanted to make a serious movie which would have had funny things in it. Because he was funny, man was funny, so. And I'm a big Crockett fan, and it's a great story, but this was 30 years ago.

[A]

Wait a minute. What do you mean you're a big Crockett fan? Like, you collect memorabilia.

[B]

I collect memorabilia. I owned three original Davy Crockett letters, including the last and most important letter he ever wrote, which was, tomorrow I leave for Texas, and I just donated.

[A]

That did not end well.

[B]

No, it was. Yeah. He didn't know. He said, explain. I plan to explore the Texas well before I return. And I have other things. I have a lot of other original stuff. And I just donated the whole collection to the Alamo Museum, which is under construction in San Antonio.

[A]

Bury the lead man.

[B]

You know, my publishers should have put that in.

[A]

She should have. I mean, king of the wild frontier yeah his land was biggest his land was best from the grassy plains to the mountains west he's ahead of us all leading the rest Follow his legend right into the west that's very good.

[B]

He remembered that I didn't remember anything.

[A]

On mountaintop in Tennessee Greenest state in the land of the free Killed him a bar when he.

[B]

Everybody of our generation remembers that song. You know, I actually showed. Showed naked gun 33 and a third at the white House for Bill and Hillary. And Bill said, can you give an introduction in front of the whole White House, the Cabinet? Everybody was there. And in my speech, I said, I didn't direct this one because I'm writing a script about the life of Davy Crockett. And I was about to go on, and Hillary in the front row says, are you gonna use the song? And I said, no. Cause, you know, I wasn't gonna. This was gonna be a serious movie. And so I was about to go on, and she started singing Born on a Mountaintop. And then. And then Bill started singing, and the whole room started singing the song. And I ended up leading the whole thing.

[A]

Oh, my God. And we were.

[B]

Yeah. What a scene. It was amazing. It was amazing. They were very nice. And I voted for Clinton twice. And he. They gave me a tour of the White House. And it was very cool.

[A]

Which one, Bill or Hillary?

[B]

Both of them. They both took me on a tour of the White House.

[A]

Which one did you vote for twice?

[B]

Oh, Bill. I did not vote for Hillary. By the time I came to my senses, I did not vote for anybody like that.

[A]

I was born on a mountaintop in Tennessee Greenest state in the land of free Raised in the woods so he.

[B]

Knew every tree Killed him a bar when he was only three when that was politically correct to kill bears or bars. Yeah. So I mean, Davy Cry. So, yeah, I had to kind of maneuver through the minefields writing that script in our modern world, you know, because he killed, you know, defenseless animals and Mexicans.

[A]

Yeah. Oh.

[B]

You'Re gonna be okay. I hope you leave this in. Oh, God, there's no doubt it's gonna be it.

[A]

I'm not even gonna repeat it. Man, I feel like I went too far with black like my men and Master Crash. I think Master Crash was a bridge.

[B]

Too far, but Master Crash, and you know, my manager about two or three years ago put me up for masterclass. How about Dave does a masterclass because he's done all these great movies and everything and. No, they just turn down. They just. No, they don't. Yeah. And. And yeah, I think I.

[A]

Well, they come back around then. I mean, what. What finally sealed the deal?

[B]

No, no, I'm doing my own. And that's why it's called Master Crash. It's Master Crash, not Master Class.

[A]

So it's.

[B]

Oh, it's not. Yeah, it's not.

[A]

You marry the other leads. So it's not part of Master Class, cleverly renamed just for your segment.

[B]

No, no, it's my own thing from the get go.

[A]

Not sanctioned at all by Master Class.

[B]

No, not sanctioned. No.

[A]

In fact, you were turned down.

[B]

I was. I was rejected several times as I was by Paramount for doing another. My own franchise.

[A]

Right, right, yeah. So Paramount.

[B]

So it doesn't.

[A]

He's a whiz.

[B]

Yeah. And you're reduced to. This is why I do. Objected by everyone. That's why I'm down to doing this podcast, I think, you know, if somebody important hears this podcast, I could get on a real. Maybe you could get a job. Yeah.

[A]

You know who we had in here yesterday? You'd like this kid. His name's Mark Malkoff and he wrote, I think maybe the best book about Johnny Carson.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah, it's called Love. Love Johnny Carson. Love Johnny Carson. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I'm interested in. I would read that. Yeah. Is this just published in the last. Yes, in the last. I think it was a few months ago that.

[A]

A few years ago. Yeah. But what he did you would like.

[B]

What did he uncover that hasn't been said.

[A]

It's not that. It's kind of like, why was Airplane so different? And it's because it was somehow an impossible melange of gags that worked from start to finish.

[B]

Right?

[A]

This is 400 interviews. This kid gets invited to Mel Brooks's house, gets doc severance.

[B]

And everybody talked about.

[A]

Everybody is desperate to tell a Johnny Carson story. Oh, Everybody. He's got 400 interviews.

[B]

Oh, I bet that's.

[A]

And he himself is. He's like, I guess in his 40s, but, you know, grew up so enamored of it, really, because his dad was enamored of it. And so he had that sort of adjacent thing. And so he turned his obsession into a podcast called the Carson Podcast, and took all those interviews and a bunch more and turned it in this book. Which leads me to the obvious question. Was Johnny Carson funny? And if so, why?

[B]

Oh, he was. He was very funny. I mean, and mostly because he let other people be funny. He let his guests be funny. And he was a big fan, observer, and aficionado of Jack Benny. And Jack Benny had those takes where he would just not say anything and just look. He would fold his arms and look. And Carson wisely knew that that would be great. And I think. And Groucho did that, too, on his show. I don't know if Groucho, which came first, Benny's act, or Groucho doing that, but they both did it. And Groucho knew how to use those pauses. But Carson was also very funny. I mean, the way he told jokes, the way if a joke bombed, he could make a joke out of that.

[A]

Well, we talked about that moment at length where Ed Ames threw that tomahawk right into the crotch of the cowboy.

[B]

And he waited.

[A]

Well, you can see him grabbing Ed. Yeah, Ed's going to get the tomahawk back. He's like, no, just stand here. And it's like the most sustained laughs in the history of tv.

[B]

The great talents, I think, realizes when silences are the best. And Vin Scully, when Kirk Gibson hit his famous home run, just silence. He let it. And then during that silence, now I realize Vin was thinking of that great line, oh, in a year, that what you were saying, he went to the bathroom. Yeah, that's good, too. But.

[A]

Yeah, man, I mean it. But look, it's scary. Silence is scary. You know, let's try it. See? Couldn't do it.

[B]

I can't do it. I can't have to fill up.

[A]

You got. You got to do it. Yeah, but, you know, it's like a space in a sentence. You take all the spaces out of the book. It's just.

[B]

Yeah, but a lot of that, you know, I Think Letterman was good at doing that, too. I think he, you know, he was a follower of Carson. And also these guys were quick. And Carson used the pause to think of that line. I think he said Frontier Bris or something on the Ed Ames thing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And. And Vin Scully thought of, in a year that has been improbable. The impossible has happened. And I'm sure he was thinking during the pause.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I do admire the quickness of a guy like Carson. And even without the pause, he could do a comeback. These guys are quick, Letterman. Very quick.

[A]

And to do it every night and.

[B]

To do it night after night. Well, year after year, just to do those shows night after. How do they do that Sometimes, you know, some nights you don't feel great or you just want to have a martini.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And go to sleep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, in my old age, now that's what I like to do. Yeah.

[A]

Well, we're. We're getting close.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What time is it, Chuck? Is it time.

[B]

Time for martini? Wait a minute. Are you done with me already? Was. Yeah.

[A]

Was Davy Crockett the Groucho Marx?

[B]

Yes, I think he was. And he was one of the first celebrities. You know, Ben Franklin was a celebrity because he did a lot of things. He was a scientist. You know, he invented lightning or something or whatever.

[A]

Discovered electricity, I think they say it, but. Yeah.

[B]

And Crockett was not only the best raconteur and humorist and speech maker in the day when that was entertainment was speeches, people, orators.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Crockett could be funny, he could entertain. And he was the best athlete of his day.

[A]

Meaning he was a marksman.

[B]

He was a marksman. And he did this tremendous feat of, you know, shooting a lot of. What did he shoot? Bears? Yeah. And. And Buffalo Bill. I thought you were going to say Mexican. No, no, I've done that joke. That's another thing I teach in my course. Don't do the same joke over again.

[A]

The lady hangs herself and then the guy stabs. Have fallen.

[B]

But that's the same joke increasing is when you go A, B and C. It's another concept.

[A]

Okay. You have kind of like bad week to quit smoking, quit sniffing glue.

[B]

Yeah. Right. Taking amphetamines. You build the joke. Yeah. So in that way, you can. I can teach, you know, some amount of humor.

[A]

Is your hope with the Master Crash to genuinely impart real useful information that's actually going to make people fun, or is the whole thing in and of its. Let me ask, with all the respect I can muster, is going through Master Crash Designed to make me laugh and entertain me or actually arm me with useful tools I can apply.

[B]

Yes, definitely. Arming people with useful tours. It's even helping me because, like today I do one hour classes on zoom with people and they can interact with me and ask me questions. They were asking questions. And one question was about when can you use background humor? When can you not? And then about building a gag. How can you tell when something goes too far? So I thought of. In Scary Movie 3, do you remember the scene where Charlie Sheen is talking to the sheriff, this woman and her hat. The hat is already ridiculous that they wear. And so what I did was have the hat get bigger and bigger as he's talking to her. And the last gag in that, which we cut was it was just the hat driving off in the car because she was getting into the car with barely fitting in the hat. Anyways, we had to cut that because it was. The audience didn't laugh. And I thought. And I just came in this class today, I came up with the fix. I mean, it's, you know, it's 20, 20, 30 years ago, but I should have backgrounded the hat driving off because then it would have gotten a laugh if Charlie would have been either doing something, doing some business, or talking to somebody. And in the background, you see the hat, then it would have gotten a laugh. But.

[A]

But you made it the center.

[B]

I made it the center. Which is a mistake. And I didn't know. But, you know, so I'm learning myself from this course.

[A]

I mean, well, I would refer the gentle viewer back to whacking material.

[B]

I believe that's a background gag.

[A]

That's a background gag. Right, Right. What was the magazine he was reading?

[B]

Modern Sperm. This is ridiculous.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And now, for some reason, I know that's another Jim Abrams joke. Yeah. He wanted whacking material.

[A]

It's just. It's just so wrong. Totally.

[B]

But do you understand how it would have been anti humor to cut to it?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So, yeah, those are things that I can teach.

[A]

Absolutely. Anti humor to cut back his head doing the Spitzer.

[B]

Have the spit tape.

[A]

Show me the spit. Not to take.

[B]

Right. Yeah. Just show it passing. Then it's. It, whoops. It becomes. Natalie, you. Don't worry it made a background.

[A]

Don't worry. That thing's not even on. Oh, good. Great.

[B]

This is just gonna be you. It's just me talking about your dad.

[A]

These are. It's all me.

[B]

I know. I'm sick of it.

[A]

I can't get enough of the Davey Crockett thing. I know it really. I'm like, the more I think the.

[B]

Other thing that my publicist said not to ask me. Don't talk whatever you do like or like.

[A]

Are there photos of you dressed as Davy Crockett? Do you have the hat?

[B]

I had the Kunkin cap. And Chuck, see if you can find this.

[A]

There's got to be a photo of him dressed as Crockett.

[B]

There is. I can send it in. I can send it to you. We used to have these big rendezvous at my ranch in Ojai. I had a 20 acre ranch and we had 100 people from all over the country all dressed in the period, dressed as crying with an. Armed to the teeth with flintlock rifles. We would target shoot with a target being a picture of Santa Ana, who.

[A]

Was leading the Mexican forces at the Alamo.

[B]

That's right. Well, it was just because he was a Mexican. Yeah.

[A]

Who else died there? That was like, Jim Bowie died.

[B]

Jim Bowie died. And Jim Wee. Davy Crockett. And Travis.

[A]

It was Travis.

[B]

Yeah, Travis.

[A]

Captain Travis. I wonder, like, was there anything accurate about that movie? I mean, aside from. They were there.

[B]

Yeah. Well, there were a lot of movies done about the Alamo, but they were all bad. I mean, all my Alamo buddies revere all these movies, but I don't think they're very good. And I tried to do a movie, like I said, about Davy Crockett, but I finally figured out that it needs to be just what was the second act of my movie. It should not have the Alamo. Everybody's seen the Alamo. There's been a million things. Everybody knows how it turns out. So the Congressional period is the interesting thing where Crockett actually stands up for the Indians. Jackson. President Jackson wanted to remove all of them. It was horrible. Otherwise pretty good. Presidency wrecked by his treatment of the Indians.

[A]

Was that the whole Trail of Tears?

[B]

The Trail of Tears, which happened after 1836 when Crockett was killed.

[A]

So.

[B]

And Crockett stood up in Congress and spoke against it. And he was. Jackson had him defeated. Oh, yeah. There you go.

[A]

This is you.

[B]

That's me, yeah.

[A]

Look at these dimples, man.

[B]

I know.

[A]

What is going on with that? Oh, my God, you're dressed.

[B]

That was. There was a scene in Naked Gun two and a Half where we were firing flintlock rifles. And so I was. I played Davy Crockett.

[A]

Dude, you're kind of a geek, man.

[B]

Oh, yeah, 100%.

[A]

I mean. No, really, when you just said before, you just kind of slipped it in there in a Little parenthetical, but, you know, all my Alamo buddies.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, we were very proud of it. They were great. They great. And at the time, this was in the. This was deep in the late 80s and 90s. These guys were really conservative. They were from Kentucky, Tennessee, you know, some from New Jersey. They were all very right wing. And my friend Paul Hutton and I were. And Robert Wheal, who's an artist. We're all lefties. And so. But we all got along. I like these guys. And we rewrote our script with a kind of a left wing bent. It was ridiculous. Anyway, so. But then I realized. I mean, I flipped over and I actually sent the script to Fess Parker.

[A]

No kidding. I did the original Davy Crockett.

[B]

Yeah, well, not the original actor. Because after Naked Gun two and a half. I got a call from Fess Parker. And he wanted to meet me. Cause he, you know, he had seen that. I put all these scenes in about Davy Crockett. And I put pictures on the wall of Davy Crockett.

[A]

I was just gonna say, do we have photos? Can you find, like, a photo of Davy Crockett? Like, the. The actual Davy Crockett? I think so. Because I'm pretty sure he didn't look like Fess Parker.

[B]

No, there are, you know, artists. Renderings of him. There was no photography then.

[A]

Right. But there must be.

[B]

But they have, like, about six different portraits of him.

[A]

Tell me something else about Davy Crockett. I don't know.

[B]

Well, you know, we said, you know, he's a humorist. You know. He actually stood up for what he thought was morally right. And not a politician. He was an entertainer. And that's how he got elected. Because he was really popular. They probably cheated and had him defeated through, you know, look. How the hell did Biden get elected?

[A]

Well, yeah, it was. Opinions vary, but. Yeah. Yeah, there was something going on.

[B]

There was something going on. Yeah.

[A]

I. I remember him, like, almost drowning in some riverboat mishap or something.

[B]

Yes. He, you know, cut out.

[A]

He. There's your fart proudly.

[B]

That's not him.

[A]

Writings of Benjamin Franklin. You never read in school.

[B]

And Franklin wore a coonskin cap. Yeah.

[A]

Two.

[B]

That's Crockett there. That's probably what he looked like. That's the Osgood portrait.

[A]

Osgood was a famous portraitist, I guess.

[B]

Yeah. And these guys went to Washington, D.C. and Crockett mainly was not pleased with any of these portraits. Because he said it made him look like a Presbyterian minister. And it's like a cross Between a schoolteacher and. So he finally got a guy, a famous portrait artist named Chapman, to paint him in his buckskin outfit and. With a hunting dog and a rifle and his cap. Yeah. And his element. And that's. And that hung in the. In the Texas State House.

[A]

Was it well hung?

[B]

I'm not gonna treat that joke with any kind of dignity.

[A]

That wasn't a joke.

[B]

Yeah, but I was going to say that the Texas State Capitol burned down because they had. Evidently, Karen Bass was the mayor then.

[A]

Oh, man. So, okay.

[B]

Have I said enough? You think more. Okay.

[A]

Well, you know. No, you know, it's strange. I flew in a year ago as the fire had really just started. Looking out the window of the plane, I'm like, what is. It Looked like a very unusual fog.

[B]

Smoky. Yeah.

[A]

Didn't look like smoke from my perspective. It looked like fog. And then I flew in again exactly one year later. And it's just. I don't know if you want to go there, but it's just appalling.

[B]

I have driven up PCH through Malibu, and, I mean, I don't recognize it. There's just nothing there now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I have not driven through Palisades. But, I mean, it seems to me. And again, you know, I don't know that much about it, but it seems that this. All this was unnecessary. And I wish we had another governor and another mayor, but I don't know who's running for mayor. I wish Caruso would run.

[A]

I bet he will. But if not, well, he ran before and lost, so. Yeah, But Naked Gun 4.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

Too soon.

[B]

It just didn't need to happen. I mean, in so many. You know, with the technology they have today, they could have remote cameras everywhere so that if there's smoke anywhere. In fact, I guess there was a. It was burned and the fire department said, we need to stay here. And someone up the chain of command said, no, you don't need to stay there anymore, and it's out. So, you know.

[A]

Yeah, there's nothing funny about it.

[B]

No, No, I wasn't. No, there's nothing funny. But there's funny about the voters in la. Who. And the voters in. Well, that's not funny either. Voters in New York. I don't know. I don't know what they're thinking. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, you know, I think sometimes, as I say a lot on this thing, things have to go splat, like, before they get better.

[B]

Before they get better.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that might be true, like, maybe with. Like, for a while there, I thought that was true with the state of comedy. Like, this is bad. This isn't funny anymore.

[B]

There's nothing on this. And I'm kind of. I want to do these movies and bring comedy back. And, you know, you were telling me about how you were laughing in the theater and it spread to other people. Well, that's the importance of having a theatrical experience and not communal. Yeah. Especially for comedy. I mean, I can still watch my favorite movies like the Godfather and in the privacy of my living room. Yes. Something like Airplane.

[A]

You need, you know, Seven, Right.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I mean, that scene was Sonny in the toll booth. Hilarious.

[A]

Yeah. They're still shooting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Was Blazing Saddles important to you?

[B]

No.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I don't know. I think I enjoyed it, but I think I. I loved that they were making jokes and. But it didn't. It wasn't our sense of humor. Real. I mean, it wasn't our style. It wasn't our style.

[A]

No, it's not your style. But it seems like in the same way, like the. Weigh inside. It was not your style. But.

[B]

But. Well, the Wayans came after us, but, you know, Mel Brooks came before us and would. But something about Woody Allen, I think, was more inspiring to us. It's just. We just thought we. I remember Jerry and Jim and I couldn't wait for the next Woody Allen movie to come out.

[A]

You know, I couldn't wait for his next books. Did you ever read Side Effects? No. Funny. And he wrote another one called Without Feathers, which is even funnier.

[B]

I just read. I think I read the recent. He wrote a autobiography.

[A]

Not Funny.

[B]

No, it wasn't funny, but I was interested. I think it's mainly he. You know, he. He wanted to oppose the. All the rumors, and I think he wanted to tell his story. His side of the story.

[A]

No. You know, I read Without Feathers.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is taken from an Emily Dickinson poem, which is about as unfunny and dark as you can.

[B]

I haven't read it. I really read only nonfiction and history biographies. Anything about World War II.

[A]

I could not stop for death, so death kindly stopped for me.

[B]

And that was Emily Dickinson.

[A]

That's Dickinson.

[B]

Yeah. That's nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I can't.

[A]

And our coach was just ourselves and immortality. Right there with Sylvia Plath. Great comediennes.

[B]

Yeah, Very funny.

[A]

All right, so aside from Master Crash, which people. How does one crash the master?

[B]

Just go to mastercrash.com. it's a free community. You get in and then for other extras. It'll cost some money, but. Yeah, you can get into the community and get a lot of it.

[A]

Absolutely. Check it out.

[B]

Check it out.

[A]

I don't know. You don't really know me. I mean, you know me at all. And you're not going to remember any of this, but the Davy Crockett thing, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, are you watching, I don't know, like Landman or Taylor Sheridan stuff? Any of this. You don't watch any of this?

[B]

I don't watch anything. I don't watch anything on. On tv and I read books on airplanes. When I'm trapped on an airplane, I have to read a book. I watch documentaries. I watched a documentary on Andrew Jackson on, you know, all this stuff on Patton. I just love history. I love to watch and learn what really happened.

[A]

Well, for that reason, there's Fart proudly again.

[B]

Sorry, I'm starting to get this up. Here's Master Crash.

[A]

There you go. There's Master Crash there. Oh, very clever. Very clever.

[B]

Yeah. So.

[A]

Is it still fun being you?

[B]

Everything. It's so fun. It just gets more and more fun. I'm excited to wake up every morning because I have a movie that I'm in pre production for. I mean, you know, the Star of Malta, which is a black and white film noir set in 1949. We're casting it now. We're going out to cast. So that's very exciting. So, you know, we have backing for it, and you got a role for.

[A]

A marginally famous cable TV star between gigs.

[B]

How many people watch this or follow you?

[A]

Dozens.

[B]

Dozens.

[A]

No, what I got, I got. I got 9 million people on the social medias.

[B]

You're in.

[A]

Now, to be clear, you didn't say urine?

[B]

No. You said, I see you're seeing it at one time. That's how we made jokes, was hearing things the wrong way. And so somebody said, we saw in a serious movie, the line, surely you can't be serious. And one of us thought, okay, that's. Surely it's someone's name. So that's how stuff and everything. When somebody. I watch Dave Rubin all the time and he'll say, I'm gonna have moron this after that. And I want to say, who you calling a mor? You know, just dumb jokes like that.

[A]

What's that in the Road Ahead? No, no, no.

[B]

Is that from Monty Python?

[A]

It's either that or maybe Fireside Theater. Beyond the Fringe? Yeah, some of those earlier.

[B]

But I. Sometimes I send stuff into Dave. He'll use stuff that I send it.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's. You know, it's funny. Carson used to Send stuff in, Dave. That's right.

[B]

That's how he got started.

[A]

Well, he was like. After he retired.

[B]

Oh, yeah, after he retired. But I think a lot of these guys, George Kaufman used to send things to. There was a guy named F.P. something, you know, these newspaper columnists. I think Woody Allen sent stuff into columnists. That's how he got started. And so the guy. I can't remember who the columnists were, but they would use his jokes. And then he came in and he wrote for, you know, comedians.

[A]

Well, you know, the. Like, the pulps were a big deal, Right. For writers. And, like, getting into a pulp fiction magazine. It was a starting point for so many guys who went on. John D. McDonald, Elmore Leonard. You know those guys. You kind of find your way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I mean, it's so different now. It seems anybody with a phone, you know, can. I know. The audience might not be big to your point.

[B]

Yeah. But it's always changing with every generation. At one point, it was newspapers and then it was pulp novels and then it was radio and then tv, then movies, you know, just all this stuff. And today it's something else. You know, I don't think that how we started will happen again. We started a small theater and we had video as a part of our theater show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We had two video monitors on stage.

[A]

Were you a Second City fan?

[B]

No.

[A]

Sctv?

[B]

No, no. I mean, sctv, I think, was good, but I didn't watch. We didn't watch anything that much.

[A]

I got a theory for you. I'd love to get your opinion. Are you okay? You're late. You gotta go?

[B]

Let's see. No, I'm fine.

[A]

Okay. So, like Lenny Bruce.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Any comedian coming up, once upon a time, had to bomb. You have to fail. You have to go down in flames. Right? You. That's how you get better. You learn.

[B]

The Marx Brothers did. Woody Allen. They all failed.

[A]

They all failed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they failed in front of dozens of people, Right. Today, you fail. You can fail in front of a dozen people. But they're all documenting your failure and they're gonna share it with the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, I wonder what it's done to the state of comedy to remove the freedom to fail modestly.

[B]

I don't. I can't answer that. You know, I'm not that. I'm not that deep, and I'm not that aware of what's happening today. All I know, there's always funny people coming up, but there is a lack of theatrical comedy. I mean, there's some comedy on tv, I don't think. I don't really have an interest in any of the sitchcoms that are there. I don't. I don't like that kind of humor. I mean, since Seinfeld and Curb, there hasn't been anything really acidly cutting and out there and just totally like Larry David and Seinfeld are classified themselves. And I don't see anybody coming up that's like that. I mean, and on TV you have south park and as I said, the Jokers. But I don't. And I don't watch anything. I don't think any of that stuff is funny.

[A]

Well, I think, like, if I were actually taking notes and capable of remembering much of what you said, I would want to hang on to the, like the. The idea that nobody wants a sermon and nobody wants a lecture.

[B]

That's our rule, which is. No, it's axe grinding.

[A]

Same thing.

[B]

Yeah, same thing. That's. We cover that. Yeah, yeah. And so. And if you do want to make a point, you better. A joke to pay for it.

[A]

You got to earn it.

[B]

Yeah, you got to earn it, David.

[A]

You've earned it. Man. Your career is so amazing. And really, not to make it too much about Carson, but as we were talking about it, I thought, you know, the reason that kid's book is doing so well is because so many people have so many collective memories of watching the Tonight Show. And the reason I think you're important is because you gave a terrific gift to millions and millions of people who really didn't know how much they appreciated a little irreverence or a little subversion or some fun rule breaking and, you know, just laughing and thinking about those moments, you know, that's a. I know. It's a gift, man. You gave a lot of people a gift.

[B]

And it's always nice to hear, and I hear it a lot, somebody saying that this is, you know, this shaped their sense of humor or something. It's just. I like to hear anything where I can feel more important. I love.

[A]

Yeah, well, sure. You should think about putting together some kind of class.

[B]

I don't think so. No, that's not going to stick. It's a dumb idea.

[A]

Yeah, you're probably right.

[B]

Right. Yeah. But what about a crash? Oh, well, wait a minute. You might have something there.

[A]

Thanks again.

[B]

Really appreciate it was. It was a lot of fun doing this.

[A]

I'll get you that martini now.

[B]

I love it. Yeah, I just have to get home by six and then. And then having a guest Over. Yes.

[A]

Anybody I know?

[B]

No, nobody famous.

[A]

That Feinberg guy you were talking about from New York, what was his name?

[B]

Friedman.

[A]

Friedman. Lewis, you tell Louis, I will tell Louis you said hello and forget about that 20.

[B]

Maybe he'll listen to this. I'll turn him on to this because I didn't. I mentioned him, didn't I?

[A]

You came in and you started telling me a story about this lefty in New York.

[B]

You know what we did? I have to tell you this. We. We grew up in the first suburb north of Milwaukee, all white high school in the 60s. And there was only one black kid and he was the exchange student from Uganda. Nobody saw him for 50 years. We had a 50 year class reunion. Lewis and I hired an actor named Mario Somebody and we dressed him in an African dashiki and we had him come to the reunion as his name was Mujabi Mapaka and everybody called him Blowjobby at the time. And he, of course, the kid had a. He had a. I remember he had a wonderful sense of humor. He thought it was funny. We gave him a speech to read. It was a huge. I have a video of the speech and it was great.

[A]

Now I understand why practical jokers is on your, your list.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's practical. It's.

[A]

What other pranks. I'm sorry, I can't let you go yet. Like that. Anybody capable of hiring somebody to come in to impersonate a black foreign exchange student decades after the fact.

[B]

Yeah, our class still doesn't know that it was a prank.

[A]

They do now.

[B]

Yeah, well, they won't listen to this.

[A]

You'd be surprised.

[B]

Which would be great. You know, I always wanted to cast him in a movie and then have him be in a talk show and tell about the gag. That's such a great story. Anyways, he had his picture. Everybody wanted their picture taken with him. And a couple of these women sent the picture to the host, the AFS host, and he said, that's not Mojave. Mojave was a foot taller and that's not him at all. And so then everybody's, you know, emailing, there's 200 kids in the class, all these panicked emails saying it's an African prince, he was a swindler. And then I had, I had an article written, you know, mocked up article from some newspaper in Illinois saying the guy had been apprehended and was accused of doing the scam. And in one recent Milwaukee reunion, he was used to scamming elderly women. And he romanced somebody, slept with her, and Scammed her out of $5,000. And so that became a whole thing. Everybody's wondering who it was, but the big complaint was one of our classmates, this lady says, we are not elderly.

[A]

But see this. Actually, I'm so glad we kept talking, because that really lands the plane. Now I understand. I understand why, like, taking the gag to the next level. To the next level.

[B]

Yeah. We kept going. Kept doing, Kept going. Yeah.

[A]

So good.

[B]

Yeah. That's because I'm. I'm bored, you know, and I need to do something. I'm looking. I'm doing this show. I sit at home waiting for my movie to start.

[A]

I got one for you. We took. In college, we took a picture of a guy. His name was Chuddy. Everybody called him Chuddy. Yeah. This odd thing. And he had a big, round face. He was a nice enough kid, but it's just kind of obnoxious. Anyway, somebody took a picture of his face and put it on thousands of little decals that had adhesive on them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just handed them out to people. Said, don't tell Chuddy, but just take them and put them in the elevator. Put them on the payphones. Just put them all over town. Yeah. And I don't think anybody ever told him, but I think he may have lost his mind.

[B]

Yeah. Seeing these pictures, didn't know yourself.

[A]

Out of context, no explanation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But to really, like, commit to that bit and go with it.

[B]

Yeah. That's also a big thing. And we also loved having the bomb go off when you're not there. And so. And that's what Jim Abrams used to do. In the book, we tell a story where Jim and Jerry and I were at our friend Kenny Hurwitz's house for the afternoon. And Jim takes Jerry and me aside and said, I have to leave now because I have something, but Kenny's gonna have you guys over for dinner. And so Jim leaves, and Jerry and I are waiting around, and Ken finally said, you know, guys, I have to leave. I have a date tonight. Jim totally made it up. And Jerry and I, you know, we weren't invited for dinner, so it's just. It was a thing. And Jim was nowhere near. It was just. We all. So he didn't even get to appreciate the joke that he. No, no. Jim was somewhere else.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. Oh, man. That's. That's the long game.

[B]

Jim was a just pure comedy, pure humor. He never even wanted to get into the business. He was an insurance adjuster and a. An investigator. Private investigator for a law firm in Milwaukee. And he had A company car. It was a Ford ltd. He was fine. Jerry and I dragged him into this Kentucky Fried Theater and it was a big deal for him to leave Milwaukee, go to LA with us and you know. So that was Jim. Okay.

[A]

Zucker. Like hooker Zucker.

[B]

Yeah, you got that right. Mike. You seem to be right like the clock. Twice a day.

[A]

Twice a day, man. Twice a day. Thank you again. We'll get you home by six.

[B]

Thank you with the martini. Okay. Thanks for the parking space too. Cut.

[A]

This episode is over now. I hope it was worthwhile. Sorry it went on so long but if it made you smile then share your satisfaction in the way that people do. Take some time to go online. And leave us a review.

[B]

I hate to ask, I hate to.

[A]

Beg, I hate to be a nudge but in this world the advertisers really like to judge. You don't need to write a bunch, just a line or two. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. All you got to do is leave a quick 5 star review. All you got to do is leave a quick 5 star review. Definitely not 2.

[B]

All you got to do is leave.

[A]

A quick 5 star review. All you got to do is leave a quick Even if you hate it. Especially if you hate it.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

With Verbo care, help is always ready before, during and after your stay. We've planned for the plot twists, so support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind.

[B]

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret.

[A]

It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows.

[B]

To reach your target audience in their.

[A]

Favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.