472: Anna Vocino—Eat Happy

Summary

Episode Summary: The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe

Episode 472: Anna Vocino — Eat Happy

Date: February 24, 2026

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Overview

In this engaging, freewheeling episode, Mike Rowe welcomes Anna Vocino—acclaimed voiceover talent, entrepreneur, host of the Fitness Confidential podcast, and author behind the popular "Eat Happy" cookbooks. The conversation covers Anna’s evolution from voice work to food entrepreneurship, her personal health journey (including celiac disease and gluten sensitivity), the challenges and triumphs of building a food brand, the perils of modern nutrition, and the shifting landscape for both voice actors and food manufacturers. Along the way, they swap memorable industry stories, debate food and diet trends (especially low-carb and sugar-free), and share plenty of savvy, irreverent laughs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Voiceover Industry: The Real Story

• Background: Anna and Mike riff on the often-misunderstood world of voice acting, sharing anecdotes from their decades-long careers.
• Luck, Timing & Gender in VO: Anna recounts how opportunity often stems from someone else not showing up:
  “My career is based on people...not being available. That's how I got to voice promos for NBC for years.” (08:11, Anna)
• The Iconic ‘In a world…’: Echoing Don LaFontaine’s accidental entry into movie trailers:
  “His talent didn’t show up for a movie...In a world…” (08:34, Mike)
• Modern Trends: Increase in conversational VO reads, "millennial float" and irony about how industry demands can be vague and contradictory.

The Art of Brand Building & Honest Communication

• Anna's Philosophy:
  “All challenges are communication challenges...Brand building is a journey of communicating to people why they should buy your stuff when there are so many choices.” (19:13, Anna)
• The conversation pivots often to how authentic storytelling—and not strict nutrition fundamentalism—is at the heart of Anna’s work.
• Anna’s success in both voice and food is framed as entrepreneurial adaptability in fields perpetually threatened by automation and commodification.

The Journey to ‘Eat Happy’

• Personal Motivation: Anna’s celiac diagnosis in 2002 predated widespread gluten-free awareness. Finding available gluten-free options was expensive and disheartening, so she began to recreate favorites herself.
  “$17 bag of cookies, and it tasted like absolute dog shit. So I wound up having my Tara moment: I will figure out how to make yummy cookies, so help me God.” (27:27, Anna)
• From Gluten-Free to Low-Carb: Anna discusses realizing gluten-free processed foods weren’t healthier. The switch to low-carb, higher fat, and ditching sugar/grains led to better health and a shift in her cookbooks’ focus.
• Cookbook Evolution:
  • “Eat Happy” (2016): First book, recipes for real life, not just gluten-free.
  • “Eat Happy Too” (2019): Broadened themes, more relaxed attitude.
  • “Eat Happy Italian” (2025): Focus on Italian and Italian-American classics, re-imagined to be lower-carb.

Food Industry Deep Dive: Creating and Marketing Clean Food

• Manufacturing Challenges:
  “Finding someone who won't put crap in it takes 18 months just to get someone to make the product...It’s so expensive to go into grocery stores, paying for shelf space, offering free fills…you’re losing money hand over fist until you get to scale.” (55:18, Anna)
• Equity Crowdfunding:
  • Anna’s customers invest directly in her brand, building a grassroots support base rather than taking on traditional venture capital.
• Store Placement Headaches: Confusion over where to shelve new items—as cheese snacks go, are they for salads, or snacks? Upstart brands face tough competition from established giants.

The U.S. Food Landscape: What's Broken?

• Sugar’s Dangers:
  “Is there a more addictive, dangerous drug in the country right now than sugar?” (33:58, Mike)
  Anna’s response: “It’s not one as pervasive…”
• Collective Manipulation:
  “It’s important people understand why they buy the foods they buy, separate and apart from the cravings they think they have. We’ve been manipulated.” (79:12, Mike)
• Seed Oils & Food Labels: Anna warns about seed oils’ prevalence and the way brands pass marketing costs onto suppliers and producers.
• Price vs. Health: Cleaner food always costs more, a frustration for both consumers and entrepreneurs.

Food Habits, Mindset & Diet Culture

• Temper Tantrum Stages: Anna details how people grieve dietary changes—from outrage to adaptation, to innovation, and finally acceptance.
• Anti-Counting Philosophy:
  “When you’re counting, you’re not living your life. If you’re eating real food, chances are…” (51:05, Anna)
• Changing Tastes: Cutting sugar recalibrates palate and health, but guilt and cultural conditioning can make cheat days or food “rewards” fraught.

AI & The Future: Authenticity vs. Artificial

• Authentic vs. Artificial Food/Brands: The rise of AI-generated recipes and fake branding makes authenticity even more precious—something small producers can capitalize on.
• Hand-testing:
  “There’s a lot of non-testing of recipes...because I had to make and test all mine—if I don’t have anything else to stand on, all I have is my shit's good.” (87:13, Anna)

Fun Tangents & Jingles

• Memorable Advertising: Deep dive into ad jingles (“Sometimes you feel like a nut…”, “Everybody goes to Geno’s because Geno’s is the place to go”) and the psychology of repetition in messaging.
• Grammar Geeking: Extended riff on the em dash, interrobang, and other punctuation as life or branding metaphors.
• Food Trivia: The history of puttanesca sauce (“hooker sauce”), quirky home-use products, and a recurring sense of play around food and language.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Her Career’s Serendipity:
  "My career is based on people...not being available, canceling. That's how I got voice promos for NBC." (08:11, Anna)
• On the Food Pyramid:
  “The food pyramid was, in fact, among the great lies foisted upon the great unwashed.” (00:39, Mike)
• About Marinara Sauce:
  “I've been making this since I could turn on a stove...Pizza is one of them. That's the first thing. Everyone goes through the temper tantrum phase.” (37:20, Anna)
• On Brand Building:
  “Brand building is a journey of communicating to people why they should buy your stuff when there are all sorts of other things they could be buying.” (19:17, Anna)
• On Clean Ingredients:
  "That's why we've gone into those three different categories [sauce, spices, cheese bites], because as somebody who writes recipes, those are the things that I'm looking for." (53:57, Anna)
• On Being a ‘Feeder’:
  “I'm a feeder. I like to feed people. So, you know, what can I say? I want to be happy too.” (65:46, Anna)
• On Seed Oils:
  “I avoid the seed oils whenever possible. It's not possible to avoid them all the time, because every restaurant...It's really tricky.” (95:41, Anna)
• On Sugar Substitutes:
  “I hate the way they taste. I think they taste like you brewed sugar through dirty tea socks.” (104:09, Anna)
• The American Food System:
  "We're a sick country, right? We're very sick. And the seed oils don't help." (98:24, Anna)
• On DIY Cooking Shows:
  “I love cooking shows. I want to do a cooking show, but I'm also doing a cooking show because it's called the Internet. So we have the ability to produce our own cooking shows.” (86:49, Anna)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:03–03:18: Introduction, Anna’s background, “Eat Happy” philosophy, voiceover career
• 05:11–07:31: Wine geekery, casual banter & introduction of Anna’s personality
• 10:01–13:17: Trends in voiceover, ‘millennial float’, changes in copywriting expectations
• 19:35–25:43: Building brands, podcasting, the power of authentic communication
• 27:27–30:15: Anna’s health journey, from celiac diagnosis to cookbook author
• 37:20–40:57: Pragmatic solutions for healthy eating, grocery shopping, and price barriers
• 55:18–58:54: Manufacturing, distribution, strategic crowdfunding, and real-world hurdles of launching a food brand
• 66:43–70:31: Withdrawing from sugar: physiological and emotional experience
• 79:12–81:52: On consumer manipulation, advertising history, and pop culture
• 95:41–99:09: The great seed oil debate and the hidden costs in our food system
• 104:09–104:58: Sweetener alternatives, their pitfalls, and Anna’s honest preference
• 110:40–113:57: US vs. European food quality, anecdotal evidence, gluten issues

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Tone & Style

The tone is witty, conversational, and occasionally irreverent, marked by nerdy tangents about language, cultural observations, and personal storytelling. Both Rowe and Vocino keep things accessible for non-experts, favor curiosity and honesty over dogma, and never lose their sense of humor about either their industries or themselves.

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Where to Find Anna & Her Work

• Books: Eat Happy, Eat Happy Too, Eat Happy Italian (Amazon, B&N, EatHappyKitchen.com)
• Newsletter/Blog: annavocino.substack.com
• Products: Eat Happy sauces, spices, and cheese bites (direct-to-consumer and select retailers)
• Podcast: Fitness Confidential (with Vinny Tortorich)

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Final Thoughts

If you’re interested in food entrepreneurship, real talk about dietary change, building brands in the age of AI, or just want to absorb two pros riffing insightfully on modern life, this episode is a box of chocolates—full of unexpected surprises, practical wisdom, and plenty of crunchy, cheesy snacks for the ears.

Transcript

[A]

It is the way I heard it. And I'm still Mike Rowe. And my guest today is Anna Vochino. And it's certainly possible that listeners, Chuck. Have heard her name invoked in prior episodes.

[B]

Yes, 100%. Probably with a fellow by the name of Vinnie Tortorich.

[A]

No sugar, no grain. It is a drum beat that. That I first heard on this podcast, I don't know, a few years back. I've been aware that sugar's bad. I know that grains are not great. I do believe that the food pyramid was, in fact, among the great lies foisted upon the great unwashed. And I bought it, and a lot of people grew up with it. And it's just extraordinary to me how long it's going to take, how slowly perceptions and beliefs, how long it takes for them to unravel.

[B]

Yeah. But I think they're unraveling quicker and quicker nowadays. I think a lot of people are aware that seed oils are bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think a lot of people are getting the idea that, you know, that your cooking utensils should not have a coating on it.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That you can scrape off stuff like that.

[A]

Stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you know, Vinnie spoke very highly of Anna because she's basically his co host and she was his producer for a long time.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And that's. What is that called? Was it Fitness Confidential?

[B]

Fitness Confidential, yes.

[A]

Yeah. And so I've been meaning to have her on for a long time because I got her cookbook, and her cookbook is very popular in my little house. It's called Eat Happy, which is what we're calling this episode as well. And I really like her philosophy a lot. You know, it's not about counting carbs. It's not about weighing things. It's not. It's a balanced look at the choices that we can make and the reality of putting better stuff in our bellies than we currently are doing in a rational way. But what I like even more is that she makes her living in voiceover.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

She's got a great voice. She's silky smooth and she's funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's smart and she's building a brand. So this is a conversation, I think, with something. Look, if you're an entrepreneur or entrepreneur curious, if you've ever wondered about how the voiceover business really works. And most importantly, if you'd share my addiction to chewing and swallowing things,

[C]

this

[A]

is a really fun conversation. She was so generous with her time and she brought gifts.

[B]

She brought a lot of gifts. Not only did she bring wine from her area in the Santa Barbara area. But also she brought these pasta sauces, which I have been buying since I met Anna. I didn't meet her, but since I first talked to her, like, two years ago, you know, I've been buying her sauces ever since.

[A]

They're really good.

[B]

Her puttanesca, my favorite is her arrabiata, you know, and now she just introduces

[A]

to these cheesy, crispy, crunchy cheese bites.

[B]

Here.

[A]

Listen to this. Yeah.

[C]

Mmm.

[A]

Sometimes you just need a little crunch. He's happy with Anna Vocino right after this. Dumb. So my friends at Beer Talk have been sending me customer feedback from consumeraffairs.com where thousands of people rate and review the top wireless providers. Here, for instance, is a nice note from James in Raleigh, North Carolina, who writes, quote, after hearing Mike Rose ad, we made the switch to PureTalk, and we couldn't be happier. We went from spending $1,200 a year with T Mobile to $420 with PureTalk. Thanks, Mike. Switch today, exclamation point. If I'm doing the math right, it sounds like PureTalk is saving James $820 a year. And because he literally wrote the words switch today in capital letters with an exclamation point, I'm going to go ahead and dedicate this commercial to him. So, folks, take it from James in Raleigh, North Carolina. PureTalk can give you unlimited talk, text, and plenty of data for just 25 bucks a month. You'll get the same 5G service the big guys are currently overcharging you for and the satisfaction that comes from doing business with a company that handles all of its customer service in this country. I switched to PureTalk a year ago. I'm totally satisfied. But who cares about me? James from Raleigh, North Carolina, has also switched, and he's saving a fortune. You will, too. Go to puretalk.com roe and you'll save an additional 50% off your first month at puretalk.com roe. Thanks, James. Pure Talk.

[C]

Pure

[A]

Talk.

[C]

What are your favorite varietals?

[A]

Big, bold, obnoxious cabs.

[C]

Okay. I brought you a cab, so I'm glad.

[A]

It's great.

[C]

You like cab francs? You like the GSMs?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Great. Me, too. Just got back from France. Two weeks doing Chateauneuf du Pape, Burgundy. The whole. It was.

[A]

That's a good one.

[C]

Dude. It was a sick itinerary. If you ever go to France and you want to do that, tell me, because I'll tell you the itinerary.

[A]

Have you found last bottle? No, oh, God. Are we rolling?

[B]

Define rolling.

[A]

Oh, dear. Well, you know what? I, I wasn't going to share this because it's like one of the great finds, but Last Bottle is a website and they make really high end wine available in a super limited way for a very short window.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

So I just got an Alouette, I think.

[C]

Great.

[A]

It's like a $360 bottle of wine for $39.

[C]

Buy a case or it's like, they're

[A]

like, you can get a case.

[C]

We have 20 cases of this. So who first come, first serve.

[A]

They don't tell you how much they have because it goes fast.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, by the bottle. Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

It's such a classic supply and demand thing.

[C]

Wine is. It's so crazy.

[A]

This is Anna Bocino, by the way. She knows everything about wine, everything about food.

[C]

I don't know everything about wine. I'm just learning still.

[A]

See, what you did was just tacitly confirm that you do know everything about food, which is ingenious.

[C]

Wow. Thank you.

[A]

You're welcome.

[C]

Doing the reverse. I don't know, I feel like you psyched me up, bro.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it was. I think we call it a compliment in the business. Not left handed or underhanded, but really a participatory serendipitous. I throw it over the net, you hit it back and it ultimately redounds to your benefit. I was going to say win, win. Except there's nothing in it for me. All I've done so far is plug second bottle, which I shouldn't have done, and kiss up to you.

[C]

Just bleep it. Bleep it in post.

[A]

Do we still bleep stuff, Chuck?

[C]

Bleep it?

[B]

Yeah, we bleep stuff.

[A]

Fantastic. We bleep.

[B]

We bleep. I don't. No, no, we don't.

[A]

We don't bleep. We bleep.

[C]

It's okay. They say shit on all.

[B]

The nasty lady part where we land on. We do, we don't. We definitely bleep that.

[A]

All right, so folks, it's all out of our system now. Prepare strap in for a G rated conversation.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

I have been wanting. Well, I've been wanting to meet you and talk to you.

[C]

I've been wanting to meet you and talk to you. So the feeling is mutual because say

[A]

something nice about me for a change.

[C]

Here's the thing. I'm gonna change it up and say something nice about you.

[A]

Thank God

[C]

you are such a fantastic conversationalist and I listened to you for Years. And I think to myself, I. Oh, my God, if only I had the chance to have a conversation with this man. And then today, Chuck calls me. Today is here.

[A]

And I'm like, it's happening. Yeah.

[C]

What if I screw it up? And I will.

[A]

We'll let you know.

[C]

And that's okay. Thank you. But later.

[A]

Yeah. Full disclosure. Somebody canceled. We knew you were close. Oh, no.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Did he really tell you that?

[C]

I have a career based on people either not being available, canceling. That's how I got to voice promos for NBC for years. Love it is because the woman was not available, and they were like, well, we need to have a lady in there. And I got the job.

[A]

You obviously know the answer to this, because if you're not the queen of the voiceovers, you're certainly in the royal court. But Don La Fontaine was a producer for Paramount.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And he. His talent didn't show up for a movie. And that's how we got in a world.

[C]

In a world.

[A]

One man. He. A cookbook.

[C]

He guested on a show. A woman with a mission.

[A]

She in grocery stores. Riddle.

[C]

It works when you do it.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

I have to do other things to make. You know, ladies in voiceover, we get accused of being too shrill, so we have to, like, make sure that, you know, that we keep it velvety smooth.

[A]

You know what it is a criticism. I don't think it's fair.

[C]

Of course not.

[A]

But I'm not entirely sure it's grossly inaccurate.

[C]

Right. What do you mean, shrill? There you go.

[A]

Do you remember example? I think one of the greatest reads in the history of commercial voiceovers on the female side of the fence had to be Sally Kellerman.

[C]

Oh, my God. For Hidden Valley Ranch, we talked about Sally Kellerman recently. So it's funny that you bring that up. Yes. She had a fantastic voice. And you wanted to buy that ranch.

[A]

Hidden Valley. Dijon Ranch. Just right on the edge of dirty.

[C]

If you go back and listen to the voiceovers for ads back in the day, they sound ridiculously cheesy. Like, like, now we have to have this thing where we're not really sold to. We have to make it sound like it's conversational.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[C]

Like the vocal fry and the millennial float and like those. All that stuff.

[A]

Whoa, wait, what? The millennial float.

[C]

That is from my friend Nancy Wolfson. Credit to her. The millennial float where you no longer will say, eat happy Italian. You'll say, eat happy Italian.

[A]

Oh, right.

[C]

Like, throw it away.

[A]

We're not committing Throw it away.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, throw it away.

[A]

Maybe Italian. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, maybe you don't. Honestly, I'm not even Italian. I can't even eat.

[C]

I'm not attached to. If you buy my product that we're advertising to you currently.

[A]

I listened.

[C]

I can't even eat.

[A]

I heard a movie trailer the other day for the Exorcist.

[C]

I was online, like, an old.

[A]

The old movie trailer and this. Really, Chuck, you'll appreciate this, too.

[B]

I've heard that recently as well.

[A]

We kind of live in this world. And I'm drawing a blank on the guy's name. But they were doing something back in the seventies around horror movies that was ingenious. And they weren't leaning into, like, they weren't doing the spooky thing. And they weren't, you know, it was

[C]

like a newscaster, but they were all newscaster reads then.

[A]

Yeah, but for this horror movie, like when you watch when you see her head spin around, right? And all the green vomit's flying through the air and the guy is saying, you know, it's a catastrophe unlike anything the church had ever seen.

[C]

I love the pregnant paws after church.

[A]

You're just like, you know what? It just brought a level of verisimilitude to it.

[C]

Thank you for saying verisimilitude.

[A]

You're welcome. And it just reminded me, you know, that was. I don't know, I think too many people have fallen too much in love with their voice and less enamored of the message they're simply trying to impart.

[C]

Oh, you're talking about as an issue with voiceover in general. Yes, yes. And hopefully a good director will bring you out of that and to the performance that should happen.

[A]

How often does that happen with you? How often does a director make you back?

[C]

Here's what I've noticed. Here's what I've noticed. The thing you do to get the job is not the thing you're going to do in the job. So they say every piece of copy. Which, by the way, full disclosure, I've been doing this 25, 30 years and I don't even read specs anymore. Maybe I might glance just to see. I kind of just vibe it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

When you. Any piece of copy that says non announcery, make sure you're talking to your friend. All those things that are loosely veiled instructions to not suck. They just want you to not suck

[A]

or suck less, suck less. We can live with a certain.

[C]

And then they.

[A]

A modicum of sucker.

[C]

It's gotta be Read like you're talking to your friend. Really off the cuff. We want somebody who's raw. They always say, we want raw. Okay? And then they write, you know, clean your toilets with DOW Chemical or whatever the thing is, you know, and they write the most salesy copy, and you're like, wait, what? And now, it used to be you would go into a room and you'd have an engineer. Maybe there's a director in there. Somebody would be directing you. Even for your audition. You'd go to your agent's office and someone would be a booth engineer directing you. Now you're by your. You have to be your own director, your own engineer, and your own talent. And you have to figure out how to read this and go, oh, God. Like, how am I gonna say, clean your toilet with DOW Chemicals? Plug for DOW Chemicals. They do make a television chemical with DOW Chemicals.

[A]

And now they're making toilets, too.

[C]

Are they?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Poop in your DOW Chemical toilet and then clean it with this with DOW Chemicals.

[B]

Now, like, you're talking to a friend.

[C]

Okay. Hey, friend, do you poop in a toilet? That's not a Dow Chemicals toilet. We'd like you to please buy a Dow Chemicals toilet so you can poop in that DOW Chemicals. Okay, now we're canceled by dow.

[A]

Here's one. I. You know what? They've never. I don't even think we ever had a shot at getting a sponsorship. You don't think DOW Chemical. No, not with dupont paying for this whole. Never happened.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

The duponts.

[C]

From Delaware. They're from Delaware, by the way, so.

[A]

Yeah, well, they. That's why. You know, why there's no sales tax in Delaware. Dupont pays it all. Everything.

[C]

The duponts are thinkers.

[A]

Okay, Playing the long game.

[C]

Playing the real long game.

[A]

Playing the long game with dupont.

[C]

With dupont, we don't have to make dumb toilets like DOW does or clean them.

[A]

That's why we poop in a hole. Dupont.

[C]

We're from Delaware. Okay. I went to school in Delaware. For you. I love you, Delaware. Sorry.

[A]

Here's where I knew. Well, two quick thoughts. One is doing voiceover as Chuck and I did for decades. Sure. Gets different when you get famous. Sorry, dude.

[C]

Oh, of course it does.

[A]

Wow. I mean, it's just. There's no more. All that.

[C]

Everything you do is gold.

[A]

It's just amazing.

[C]

It's just gold. Oh, my God.

[A]

It's just incredible.

[C]

And then they get to say on the links out in East Hampton, well, we had Mike Rowe on the Ford thing. And isn't that Great. And. Oh, good for you. Chippy or whatever, you know, and slap each other on the back, so that's good. But there are people like me who are the journeyman voice actors who I've been very lucky to make a living doing it and have done. Worked every contract. I think that there is, except for if they have a separate contract for porn. I haven't done that. Well, I haven't done porn. Voiceover.

[A]

I didn't really, but I'm thinking you might be old enough to remember the Spice Channel.

[C]

Yes, totally.

[A]

I did the promos for the Spice Channel.

[C]

You did?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Of course you did.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And. But they weren't like, super dirty. They were just.

[C]

No, they can't be. It's still.

[A]

They were poorly written and just cheeky, you know?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

When Jane had a problem with the fireplace, Frank came by. Frank was very thorough. And Jane did not expect to get her ashes hauled, you know, and, like, all of that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. But Jane did.

[A]

But Jane did.

[C]

I'm involved in this story now.

[A]

Jane was a sport.

[C]

I'll say.

[A]

Here's where I knew we were quite bendy. Jane, I got. She's Gumby. When the disclaimer on the pharma spot.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Gets into 40, 42 second territory. So you got an ad.

[C]

I voiced those. Yeah. I have that voice. I have a very, like, you know, stop taking this thing if it's. If it causes anal leakage, could cause anal leakage of the peristalsis or whatever that part of your body is. I do a lot of medical things. I don't know what I'm saying.

[A]

When does. When does anal leakage morph toward or away from just common diarrhea?

[C]

You're gonna have to have a doctor on to answer that question, because that's the other thing. I'll do voiceover and I'll read a script. I'll be like, well, I know everything about that topic now because I read the script.

[A]

Well, it is amazing, isn't it, how we can create the illusion of knowledge in short bursts based on the last thing we narrated.

[C]

Well, did you used to do this in your career? If somebody ever says, like, hey, that's easy, what you're doing. You're just talking. You look for opportunities to get them to try to read some copy, and they can't do it because you're like, okay, there's my job, insurance.

[A]

Look, it's. You know, we. You still don't do lessons, do you, Chuck?

[B]

No, I don't teach anymore. I stopped during COVID A lot of people unseemly.

[A]

It must be yes to be teaching voiceover during COVID Yeah, dumb. According to my friends over at ZipRecruiter, the latest trend in recruitment is skills based hiring which emphasizes practical hands on capabilities over degrees and diplomas. This is not the place to say I told you so, though I am tempted. I've been predicting a skilled trades renaissance for over a decade now and it's finally happening. But since this is a commercial for ZipRecruiter, I'll just remind you that ZipRecruiter uses smart screening questions to help you home in on the candidate with the skills you're looking for. And right now you can try it for [e-mail] Ro again when ZipRecruiter finds you a qualified candidate in just 24 hours or less. I'm not going to say I told you so if you. Even though I've been telling you that very thing for nearly 10 years now, I'll just remind you again that you can add ZipRecruiters screening questions directly to your job post. That's a game changer. You'll get the highest quality applicants this way. Which is why 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate with the skills they're looking for in one day. That's why I predicted that ZipRecruiter would eventually become the number one rated hiring site on G2, which they now are. Told you so. Now quit wasting time and post a job for free at ziprecruiter.com row that's ziprecruiter.com ro the smartest way to hire. What's gonna happen with AI it's bad

[C]

one tier. Like iron Eyes Cody. That's just.

[A]

Who wasn't even an Indian. By the way.

[C]

He was Italian.

[A]

Yeah, he was.

[C]

He was Sicilian.

[A]

I think that's probably why you know him. You're Italian, right?

[C]

We all know each other.

[A]

Yeah, Our nice Cody was the sad Indian who stood by the side of the road in the 70s for the keep America Beautiful campaign with a large container of do not litter. Trash landed at his feet. And he had the little lip going too.

[C]

Yeah, he really.

[A]

And the tear.

[C]

He was toe up about it.

[A]

Oh, toe up.

[C]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

The kids say we're going to get to the reason you're here. But. But I.

[C]

But why?

[A]

Well, I'll tell you why, okay. Because nutrition is universal. Food is certainly the great uniter and you're building a brand. I am and the brand that you're building is going to rely in large part on your ability to talk about it.

[C]

That's true.

[A]

To communicate it.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

In a crisp, well modulated alto. Megan, your sales director is here, nodding furiously in the background because we need

[C]

to strike her from your eyeline.

[A]

No, it's okay.

[C]

Just checking.

[A]

I didn't even see her. I'm just assuming she is.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

No sales director could sit quietly in the midst of that and not nod in violent agreement.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

So really, all challenges are communication challenges.

[C]

They are.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Brand building is a epic journey of communicating to people why they should buy your stuff when there's all sorts of other things they could be buying.

[A]

Yes. Vinnie and I got into that if I didn't mention it in the preamble. And how would I know? Because I haven't recorded it yet. But Vinny Tortorich is a. A frequent guest, and you are highly recommended on account of him because you still doing his pod.

[C]

Yes, we do the Monday show every week. We've been doing it for 13 years. And I'm his original producer of the Fitness Confidential podcast. I was podcasting back when we had to update XML code in 2008-2012. But, well, 2012, we finally had WordPress plugins. But, yes, I was podcasting back in the day, and he called me and he said, I can't turn on a computer. But William Morris told me I needed to get a podcast in order to release my book. And Nancy, who I mentioned earlier with the Millennial float, said, you know how to do podcasts? And I was like, vinny, no. Like, no, no. And I only knew him from working out with him, which he's a great trainer, by the way.

[A]

Give me the Millennial float again real quick.

[C]

I was like, vinny, no,

[A]

you know what? Like, from a punctuation standpoint, the millennial float really relies heavily on the ellipses.

[C]

The ellipses or an EM dash, apparently. Now. But now an EM dash is indicative of using ChatGPT. When I was like, I just got attached to the EM dash.

[A]

Walk me through the EM dash. I'm not clear the.

[C]

Just the little hyphen.

[A]

I call it a hyphen where the

[B]

letters touch on the either side.

[A]

Yeah, that's the EM dash.

[B]

That's the one I correct on your.

[A]

Your style.

[C]

Oh, that's the one. You take it away from him.

[B]

No, no, I give him the M.

[A]

Give me the EM dash. But it's like two. It's two dashes is right. Is that the EM dash?

[B]

No, it's one solid dash between, you know, the end of a word and

[A]

the beginning of the next. All right, people should know. But why do they call it the M dash?

[C]

I don't know. I didn't know what it was, and now I know what it is. It's a hyphen.

[A]

Yeah. Or a dash. What's the dash, Chuck?

[C]

I'm Gen X. We call it a hyphen.

[A]

I want to understand the difference between a dash, a hyphen, and an EM dash.

[C]

And in the meantime, I'll talk about the Vinnie origin story while you guys.

[A]

I do want to hear that, but I just Something. Here's a symbol. Are you familiar with the interabong? Oh, the interrobong is fantastic. I was so excited a couple years ago because I thought I had found a grammatical or a bit of punctuation that wasn't represented by a symbol. And what I'm trying to impart is a combination of surprise and interrogation and question.

[C]

Okay, like, so, like an explosive. What would happen if you took an explosive question mark?

[A]

Yes. Or a statement that embodies equal parts surprise, curiosity.

[C]

So I have to do a question mark and an exclamation point when I feel those feelings.

[A]

That's what it is. And in Tarabong, it's a question mark incorporated into an exclamation point. It's an actual thing.

[C]

It's one.

[A]

Yes. It's one symbol.

[C]

It's one wingding.

[A]

Chuck, when you have a moment, if you could get us an interrobong.

[B]

I can only do one thing at a time. Here's your. I'm gonna put this up here, and you could read it and I'll look for it.

[A]

A hyphen is the shortest for compound words like well known, full time, job, gluten free. Oh, it's an en dash. En.

[C]

No, it says. I was referring to the M. The

[A]

en dash is shorter, about the width of the letter N. Used for ranges. And look at that. Yeah, the en dash is long. Oh, and there's the em. The EM dash.

[C]

That's what I was referring to.

[A]

The width of the letter M. Okay, so folks, if you want to use a short dash, I guess you would go with a hyphen. A slightly longer dash is the en dash about the width of an N, as in Nancy, who we keep mentioning. And M, em, that's a hyphen. The width of the letter M, as

[C]

in Mike, you get the longer dash. Congratulations.

[A]

So, yes, in order to transition smoothly and live up to the conversationalist that you described me as. Okay, well, as AI completely upends.

[C]

I forgot we were talking about that.

[A]

The voiceover business. And we are ushered into a new state of skepticism where we can't tell the difference between that which is artificial and authentic. I do believe an honest brand like the one you're trying to build is going to become super relevant. And I also think honesty in food recipes, everything you and Vinny have been doing is going to become hyper relevant. And since we're at the beginning of another year and everybody's.

[C]

Everybody's doing new Year, new you right now. Great. Love it.

[A]

So having said all that.

[C]

Yes, thank you.

[A]

I think I can justify my 18 minutes.

[C]

A.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

A plus segue.

[A]

Now let's move into the things you truly care about.

[C]

You know, the AI stuff I always said for me personally, I watched really talented women above me in the generation above me in voiceover age out. And that bummed me out. And that kind of. This confluence with me getting diagnosed with Celiac in 2002 and starting to figure out, what the hell can I eat? I can't have gluten, what can I eat? Right? And 2002 was a time that gluten free wasn't really in the lexicon. We weren't really having that conversation. It wasn't. Didn't even have time to have a backlash at that point.

[A]

Was gluten even a thing?

[C]

I don't think so. Cause I really had to do a lot of explaining to people. Whole Foods and Pasadena had this little end cap with some gluten free cookies. Like with some legacy brands like Pamela's and Annie's and things like that. And I bought this $17 bag of cookies because I was like, well, I can have these. And back then, you know, that was a lot of money. My husband and I were young artists and we're like broke af.

[A]

And excuse me, but that's your Terrabong right there.

[C]

That is shocking.

[A]

Isn't that beautiful?

[B]

It's a thing that looks like an ear.

[A]

I know it looks like an ear. It's simply if you're not watching folks visualize an exclamation point with a question mark going over the top of it, but then coming down to merge before the dot at the bottom.

[C]

That is shocking. But it's also not in the Apple keyboard yet.

[A]

No, it's not on the keyboard.

[C]

Can you be responsible? I think if I could set a goal for you, sure. I want this to be like on your Wikipedia page that Mike Rowe is responsible for The Interrobom for appearing into keyboards in the QWERTY keyboard.

[A]

Yeah, because look, somebody did the hard work. Somebody actually designed that, right? So why is it not on a keyboard? And when you start looking for it, like our brain does this with everything, right? It finds whatever you tell it to look for. If you start looking for phrases or moments in your own phraseology that incorporate that mix of questioning with excitement, you're going to start using the Interrobon all over the place.

[C]

I've been using two different characters and imagine the time savings. I'm busy, I'm building a brand. I don't have time to type, I

[A]

don't have time for two punctuation marks.

[C]

So yeah, so I bought the $17 bag of cookies and it tasted like absolute dog shit. And I wound up having my Tara moment of like, I will, I will figure out how to make yummy cookies, so help me God. And, and I did. And then working on camera and working in the entertainment industry, I was eating all this gluten free stuff and fig and putting on weight, and putting on weight. And by the way, when I was coming up in Hollywood, there was. You were a character actor or you were, you know, ingenue or lead actress. There wasn't a lot of wiggle room. So I would always starve myself so I could go be the mom on the commercial.

[A]

On the whatever commercial, you were either a question mark or an exclamation point.

[C]

So I. There was a little bit of that. And then stuff obviously has loosened up about now we see all different kinds of body shapes on tv, which I think is an amazing thing and a wonderful thing. The mindset messes with folks a little bit, I think of us older generation. So I met Vinny Tortorich in. He was training me and he said, I don't know how to turn on a computer, please can we do this podcast. And he said, I wrote this book, Fitness Confidential Plug and he still holds up by the way it does. He sent it to me and I read it on a girls trip on my iPhone 3. And when I couldn't sleep, we were in Hawaii and I was reading it a little PDF page by page and it was so good. And I begrudgingly said yes. And that completely changed the course of my life.

[A]

Why begrudging?

[C]

I don't know. I've never been one of those people who's like, you know the phrase, like if it, if it feels like a hell yes. Unless it's a hell yes, it's a hell no. I'm not. There have been some times where it felt like a hell yes. But for the most part I'm like, I don't know, I guess I'll do it.

[A]

Hell maybe.

[C]

Hell maybe millennial float, you know, I don't know.

[A]

I'll do it.

[C]

So. But that was one of those things. And then I said, okay, well, if we're gonna produce it, Vinnie, here's how it's gonna go. Because he's like, we're gonna do drop ins and sound effects because he comes from the radio world in the 80s. And I was like, no, we're not doing any of that. We're gonna turn on the mic because we did three shows a week in my garage. Every Sunday in North Hollywood. We're gonna do. We're gonna turn on the mic and we're gonna talk.

[A]

Sorry, 2000.

[C]

When this is 2012.

[A]

Okay, 12.

[C]

Yeah, turn on the mic. Turn it off. Turn on the mic three times every Sunday.

[A]

So this is like when Rogan is starting slap on his thing. Slap on.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, Slap on music. That's it. I am not producing like a crazy, like, involved show. We can have guests, we can have. I have all the equipment. I have a studio in my house. So yes, we can do that. So that's how that all came to be. And then I changed my focus from being gluten free to now being low carb. Cause I was putting on weight. I was pre diabetic getting thyroid issue, like. Cause I was aging as well.

[A]

Did you know what was causing this at the time?

[C]

No, of course not. No doctors were saying, like every doctor was saying, I came up in the fat, low fat world, like, you have to cut out fat. You have to cut your calories. You have to count your calories. So I was like, well, I guess I'll just do Weight Watchers again because I know I'm shooting this thing. And it was, it was like crazy crash dieting, basically. I knew that if I starved myself, then I could go shoot for a week on that show and then I could go back to eating again. Which, by the way, I think most people do that. Well, sure, but I wanted. I don't, I don't. I didn't love that life. And then changing to be low carb. So cutting out the processed sugars, grains, eating more fat. What do you mean? I can have full fat dairy. What do you mean? I can have the chicken thighs. Are you kidding me? I thought that I had to have steamed broccoli and, and chicken breasts with a little bit of tiny Bit of salt and lemon juice. That's what I was brought up knowing that. And, and it works, sure, but it's not sustainable and it's not fun.

[A]

It's not fun.

[C]

I am Italian. I like food.

[A]

You are Italian. You're full on Italian, right?

[C]

Full on. No, I'm half. I'm half.

[A]

What you have.

[C]

I don't know. I can't.

[A]

Is it divided lengthwise or horizontal? Good Ranchers isn't the only company that promises to deliver high quality American raised meat to your front door at a fair price. But they are the company I use and I'll tell you why. I saw the owner, Ben Spell, interviewed on a podcast last year and I loved his story. Ben wasn't a rancher, he was a musician. He'd never even grilled a steak before. But he was upset that so much imported meat was being deceptively marketed as domestic. And he decided to start a completely honest, totally transparent meat company that dealt directly with small American farms and ranches and promised to deliver the highest quality American made meat. That was seven years ago. Today that promise and Ben's determination to keep it has propelled good ranchers into the top tier of meat delivery companies. The quality is exceptional. Every cut they offer is raised on local farms and ranches, from the pasture to the final seal on every box. Their whole pack, packaging and fulfillment process takes place right here in this country. I'm a very satisfied customer. And if you subscribe, and I hope you will, you'll save up to $500 a year. Plus if you drop my name, you'll get an additional $25 off your first order. That's Code Mike for an extra 25 bucks off your first order on top of the 500 you'll save this year when you [e-mail] American meat, American delivered. If you could eat a steer, if you could eat a cow, don't take a chance on a foreign ranch. Get good ranchers now.

[C]

Yee haw. The smart half. The smart half, yeah. So that kind of. It colors everything that I do, along with the fact that I had a mother who was a sugar addict. And in 2014 she went in for a routine. I mean, it's a serious surgery, but it was routine. They're used to doing it. Heart valve replacement. And she never woke up and her body was not strong enough to fight the infection that she got in the hospital. And a lot of that had to do. I wound up getting the autopsy. It was very dark, very dark time, but it colors a lot of why I do this, which is if I could not talk to her about it. She also had celiac. That's how I found out I needed to get tested. But she went the other route and got really addicted to sugar. And that's all she ate, was sugar. And her body was not in a position to be able to fight what she needed to fight.

[A]

I think I asked Vinnie this too, and I'm pretty sure I know the answer. But do you reckon? Do you reckon?

[C]

I reckon.

[A]

Is there a more addictive, dangerous drug in the country right now than sugar?

[C]

I mean, it's not one as pervasive. I mean, I guess sugar doesn't have fentanyl in it, so it's got that going for it.

[B]

Way to make lemonade.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I always look on the bright side, Chuck.

[A]

Say sugar now with less fentanyl. With that millennial float.

[C]

Sugar now with less fentanyl. Is it fentanyl or fentanyl? Fentanyl.

[B]

Tomato. Tomato.

[A]

Well, look, I mean, it's so obviously your mom. I mean, that's an inciting incident. That's when things get dark and real. But in your interaction with Vinnie, the guy had already written the book, right?

[C]

And the book is fabulous.

[A]

But had no sugar, no grains become a thing in his world yet?

[C]

He was kind of starting it. I'm not sure exactly when he coined it, but I was like, you know what? I'm gonna switch my focus on my little food blog. My little gluten free Anna food blog. I'm gonna switch it. And then it became, what if I had the audacity to put all of these recipes into a bound book? And 2016, Eat Happy came out. And then I was like, I'm never doing that again. And then in 2019, Eat Happy 2 came out. And then I said, I'm definitely never doing that again. And then last year, Eat Happy Italian came out, and I was like, well, I'm done writing cookbooks. And then next fall I have another book coming out, so. And now I really am done. I will say, are you wearing a bathrobe? You know what? It could be a bathrobe, it could be a gi. It's been a lot of discussion. I thought it was a really cute little shirt, but just had. It was like a wrap clothes. But a lot of people said, it's

[A]

a bathrobe, like from the Huntley Hotel.

[C]

All right, well, then I just want you to feel at home in your kitchen.

[A]

I have this one.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I. I have your first one.

[C]

You're soon to have this one, because I brought you that one. I went and I went through all of my favorite classics that I love, my Italian and my Italian American classics. But low carb. I know you're gonna. That's the face of a man who wants to have pasta. I get it.

[A]

It's so good.

[C]

I know. Just.

[A]

Well, look, again, I will have sucked up properly in the preamble yet to be recorded, and we'll make sure all this is clear. But, you know, I've had a dozen recipes out of this book so far.

[C]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah. I'll get. The woman I live with has many questions. She's a huge fan. Huge fan.

[C]

That is so nice.

[A]

Yeah. So we'll get to all that. But I'm still like, I want people to understand who maybe don't have a gluten issue. Or is it celiac?

[C]

It's gone beyond that.

[A]

Right. Because now I feel like we're in a world where really, the mainstream. We did the low carb. And if you've seen Vinny's docs, which clearly you have, but you know, that many times, it's like, so the flag has been stuck in the ground.

[C]

Agreed.

[A]

Right. And now the communication really starts. Right again. Which justifies that first 18 minutes of free association. But, like, we have to. This whole thing is going to. The country's relationship with sugar, which is fundamentally bad and dangerous, is only going to improve, we hope, if we can articulate why. Yes, yes.

[C]

Well, here's the thing. I'm not a scientist. I choose to eat this way and offer solutions to people who are looking for, oh, you know what? I don't feel good when I have too much sugar. When I have all this processed food. I'd like to get back in the kitchen, but I'm scared. I'd like to do grocery shopping, but I don't even know where to begin. That's where I get practical with people, and that's where I'm helping people. Now, my marinara, for example, like I said, I'm Italian. I identify as an Italian American. And I've been making this marinara since I could turn on a stove. Like, I just know how to do it. And I know that, like, there are certain foods. Pizza is one of them. That's the first thing. Everyone goes through the temper tantrum phase. Right. And I Because explain that more. So like the doctor said, with celiac in 2002, you can't have gluten anymore. And I was like, well, then what can I eat? And, you know, you get real dramatic and you throw your toddler temper tantrum and it's okay. It's part of the journey. And in fact, I know I get emails from people all the time. And especially usually it's women who are writing me and they're furious that their doctor said that they can't have X, Y or Z. And they looked in my book and they wanted to have this, but then I had dairy in it and they can't have dairy and they're furious. I'm like, you're doing the thing and it's totally okay. And I'm here to support you and I get it. You're gonna come out the other end and you're gonna equip yourself. You've gotta get the new folds in your brain about what you're gonna cook for dinner.

[A]

I don't know if coming out the other end is the best metaphor for we're talking about it. But still. But still. So like, I think I'm maybe then at the second level of you're past the temper tantrum. No, no, I'm still having a temper tantrum. But I'm no longer frustrated by the fact that I have to do things differently because I can see your, your excellent books and others out there provide a roadmap, a how to thing. The next level of the temper tantrum is why is it so fricking hard? Why can't I walk right in the store? Why isn't there a whole aisle labeled stuff that won't make you fat or hurt you, that's tasty, that you can eat in a fairly robust quantity? Why isn't it easy to find? And then I think the third stage will be because that'll come and there are stores. I mean, maybe it's a Whole Foods, maybe it's whatever it is, but you can find little nooks and crannies and aisles and corners and so forth. Where all that now why is it so freaking expensive? Right, Right. So there's plenty to justify a good long term tantrum.

[C]

There are a lot of stores that now have a better for you aisle. Or maybe they're, you know, there's in the grocery industry, there's conventional grocery, there's specialty, there's natural. Those are specific channels. Like natural would be like Whole Foods or Sprouts and conventionals like Giant or Kroger or Albertsons. You know, you'll find the regular things. So when you're going into these stores, and some stores have wonderful produce and great meat programs and some don't, and it's really hard. And there's food deserts. There's a big issue moving food across this country. That is really tricky because it's very expensive. So you have upstarts like me making very heavy pasta sauce in jars, which we had explored doing some R and D with. Doing pasta sauce in the tetra packs, you know, in the square tetrapak tetra pack, or those rectangular. You'll see a broth in those rectangular cardboard boxes that you pour broth out. Right. You can do tetra pack. They do it in Europe for their pasta sauces.

[A]

That'd be a good place for an Interrobon. You put an interrobon on a tetra pack, you'd be like, hey, what a surprise. I didn't know.

[C]

I didn't know.

[A]

This is great. I still have questions, but. Wow.

[C]

Isn't this wonderful? What is this?

[A]

Hey. That was a little shrill. Was it?

[C]

Okay.

[A]

How many people are on your blog now?

[C]

On my blog?

[A]

Yeah. You're still blogging?

[C]

I am. I'm on a sub stack. I think I've got like 25,000 people on the blog.

[A]

How important is reaching people through that media?

[C]

It's very, very important. I actually love the substack platform because I can reach people through it and I can put all kinds of media on it. I do a thing where I call five customers every day and I talk to them.

[A]

Same five.

[C]

Hey, Wendy, it's me again. How are you doing? I could use a little picnic.

[A]

Still fat. Ah, sorry.

[C]

That's actually okay. Yeah.

[A]

So five of your customers?

[C]

I do call customers. I like to talk to people.

[A]

I mean, does it freak them out? How do you get the numbers?

[C]

Yeah, it does.

[A]

So, like, you just.

[C]

If they buy on Shopify and they put their phone number in, I call them. If they've opted into communications.

[A]

Do you.

[C]

Sometimes they've opt. They've not. They said no, and I still call them.

[A]

It's a really good idea.

[C]

I broke the law.

[A]

Do you record them?

[C]

I want to. I need to start recording them. I've recorded a couple, but, you know, you have to ask permission. And sometimes I chicken out to ask permission because I just want to have. I want them to feel like they can just talk. One woman called me back. I posted the message. I got permission.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I posted her message, and she was so excited that she found us in Fred Meyers in Alaska, in her town, that she bought one of each. And she just was so glad that I called her to tell her that we were in Fred Meyers in her town. I Was like, listen, if I have to call every single one of you and tell you that we're at a store near you, I'll do it.

[A]

Megan, sales director, nodding her head in violent agreement. I mean, look, she was, well, look, a phone call is not much more complicated than a zoom call.

[C]

Nobody picks up the phone anymore.

[A]

Or Riverside. If you get their permission, why not record them? Get their permission, obviously. But then, you know, whether it's substack or Instagram. Well, yeah, I mean, it's an honest conversation, I think. You know, I think people are very hungry for that. Because back to the AI thing connection, every single thing either has a patina of bullshit on it or it doesn't. And that's why I think the AI is such an interesting corollary, because it's going to touch on every single thing that you're doing.

[C]

AI recipes are horrible, by the way.

[A]

Where do they come from?

[C]

Well, I think that they scrape the Internet and then you can put in, like, make me, you know, lemon bars or whatever, and chatgpt poops out something. And you being a recipe writer now, having published 800 recipes, I can look at it and go, that does not work. Like, no, that does not work. I'm sure law of averages, ChatGPT would poop out some good recipes from time to time, but it's an issue. In fact, that was one of the hesitations I had coming out with the first book, and this is before AI, I thought, you can just Google chicken with zucchini and get a million hits. Why does anybody need to buy a book anymore? And Vinny was the one who kind of talked me off that ledge. Like, you know what? Just. Just do it. Wrap it up in a bow and do it. And I appreciate him for supporting me in that way, because I always say, any doubt that you have while you write your book, don't worry, you're gonna get that reflected back to you in a review on Amazon. So just let it go. Because people psychically will know that one thing you feel insecure about, they'll find it. They'll find it, and it's okay. It's part of the process.

[A]

Yeah. And the way you handle it is part of the process.

[C]

It is.

[A]

So, like, everything is either going to go in the authentic category or the artificial category. I think including.

[C]

That's interesting. Yeah.

[A]

Everything we've talked about from, you know, building a brand is communicating. Voiceover is obviously the very definition of it, but, you know, so too, is chewing and swallowing. We're all addicted to that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's what I think is cool about the life you're living right now. You've. Very few people can understand or relate to the challenges of reading copy with a millennial. What's it called?

[C]

A millennial float.

[A]

A float Nancy.

[C]

And she's gonna lose her mind when she finds out that we.

[A]

Why do I know Nancy Wilson?

[C]

Nancy Wolfson is. She is a very esteemed voiceover coach and a dear friend of mine since 2003. She's wonderful.

[A]

Oh, that's nice. Is she taking new pupils?

[C]

I don't know. Maybe

[A]

dumb. Part of the reason the whole supplement industry has such a lousy reputation is because so many of the companies paint with a very broad brush. For instance, they'll tell men, especially men my age, that we need more discipline and better habits when the issue is often biology. Obviously, if you're a lazy slug who never works out and eats a steady diet of crap, you got problems. But if you've always looked after yourself, if you've exercised and made good choices at the buffet, but now you're suddenly low on energy or putting on weight, that's not your habits, that's your metabolism. Which is why you might want to consider Boost and burn from EmDrive. Unlike most of their competition, mDrive is rooted in science, not marketing. They don't over promise, they don't overcharge, and they don't paint with a broad brush. Consequently, they have thousands of very satisfied customers. Regular guys of a certain age who were still exercising and still watching what they ate but not getting the results they used to. MDrive can change that. You can find them nationwide at Sprouts or Amazon, or you can go to mdriveformen.com and order straight from there. Try mdrive boost and burn. Use code RO for 20% off your first purchase at mdriveformen.com that's mdriveformen.com, promo code RO to save 20%. Look, I worry for the voiceover industry.

[C]

I do too.

[A]

Like for the non famous part?

[C]

Well, no, for people like me, the scale actors. Absolutely. And by the way, it used to be, hey, I would get this rate for the things and this video game that you say two lines and you get all this money. It's not that way anymore. I had a friend of mine was paid some ungodly money by Toyota in the 90s just not to do another car spot. And I was like, yeah, those days are long gone.

[A]

Yeah, I was Mazda for years. And the majority of the money and

[C]

that was before you were micro, the voice, or that you were being micro.

[A]

No, that was 95, maybe.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I won't tell the whole story because Chuck's heard it a thousand times, but all I had to say was Mazda. You know, all I had to say was Mazda.

[C]

And they lifted it in.

[A]

I went in and I said Mazda three times to give the engineer a mic check. Then the client came on, and then. So Tokyo's on the phone. Chiathay in New York and an agency in Chicago, of course. And of course, they all have different ideas about how to say Mazda. And then it was gonna run in Japan, so they want it. So over there, it's Matsuda, unless you're in Hokkaido, which then it's Masuda. And then somebody on the call thought it would be a good idea if I record it with a Japanese accent for Tokyo. Yes. It's 1995.

[C]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[A]

So it's, you know, let's give it Mazda.

[C]

Did you have to growl before?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah. Yes.

[A]

I mean, I didn't have to, but they were paying for it, so I gave.

[B]

That's the value add with Mike Rowe.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Moral of the story is I'm in there for an hour because they paid for an hour. And what they went with was the second take of the mic test. Of course, they didn't take anything because

[C]

that's when it's the best, when it's the freshest, when it's just.

[A]

Well, I kind of threw it away. Like a millennial float.

[C]

Like a millennial float.

[A]

Yeah. But is there a corollary for what's happening in the food business? Because it feels like in the voiceover business, now, everybody's got the tech. You can hop on GarageBand or whatever. The thing is, like, anybody can do it, and you can say what you want about it, but if you succeed with your brand, anybody's going to be able to make amazing dishes that are really, really healthy for them without the expert patina.

[C]

Well, I think that it comes down to quality control. And I want things to be really good because I. I want to purchase products that are good. You know what I mean? I'm always kind of like, is that the golden rule? Like, treat others how you want to be treated?

[A]

That is the golden rule.

[C]

That is the golden rule. Yes.

[A]

Do unto others.

[C]

Do unto others as you would have

[A]

others do unto me.

[C]

I don't want people to do unto me, though. You know what I mean? Like, that sounds untoward.

[A]

Well, it's just old.

[C]

I know. You know, a lot of King James is what it is.

[A]

Actually, I don't think it is.

[C]

No, it's just. I don't think it's biblical puritanical.

[A]

I don't think the Golden Rule is in the Bible.

[C]

Is it not?

[A]

I don't think it is, Chuck. Have a look. And if it is, I bet there's an etera bong after it.

[C]

Do unto others as others do unto you.

[A]

I thought of that. Give it to me as a millennial.

[C]

Give it to others. Others doing to you. I guess.

[A]

I guess. I guess. You know what? Okay, okay. That actually works, because there is the millennial float. Leaves you uncertain and what we're desperate for. That's why I'd put the millennial float under, like, closer to the AI category, if not firmly in it. Because in this world, in this world of nutrition, where there's just so much nonsense out there, we're just desperate.

[C]

People are desperate. And I have found because, like, I don't. I'm a low carber, but I don't put, like, the carb grams or the calories and that kind of stuff in my book. And that is really hard for some people. And it used to be hard for me because I was a professional dieter. I knew the points and the calories and the fat grams and the carb grams and every single thing. And when you're counting, you're not living your life. So if you're eating real food, chances

[A]

are, you know, to untrue others, you know, is known as the Golden Rule. And its most famous source is the Bible. I don't believe it. I don't believe it.

[B]

Well, that's. That's according to Chatgpt, Matthew and Luke.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

See, Rabbi Hillel the Elder said, what is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor.

[A]

Well, he put a twist on it.

[C]

He did?

[A]

Yeah. Huh.

[C]

Confucius. Well, I mean, century.

[A]

Oh, well, so I guess Christianity, they

[C]

lifted it like, they lifted, like, the pagan calendar kind of thing.

[A]

Yeah, The Gregorian calendar, the Roman calendar. Oh, God, the calendar is such a mess. But relevant to what you're saying because it's the very manifestation of counting and keeping track of things. Our desperation to keep track of time is real. There is. I mean, it's the Tower of Babel without it. You're saying that if you're counting calories, if you're measuring, if you're. That that whole way of thinking is kind of doomed.

[C]

I think it's doomed because it puts us in this mentality where we're not safe. We make it unsafe to be trusted. Like I just can't trust myself. And to me there's something to be unpacked there. And what I have found in my experience talking to people, most of the stuff comes from that kind of deep rooted. I'm not trusting myself. I can't be trusted around food. There's something I'm covering up. There might be a layer of like there's a lot of stuff tied into. So when people quit eating processed sugars and grains and they're no longer medicating by stuffing the food in the pie hole, stuff comes up and that's totally fine and normal. The temper tantrum, the whatever stuff's gonna come up, that's for your therapy session, go do that. And that's great. We want those things to not torture us anymore so that we're not fat, sick and unhealthy anymore. Right. But ultimately we still want to enjoy food. Food's a wonderful thing. Food should not be demonized. I think, I think that food should be available to people in the grocery store shelves. I think it's really tricky with the, what some of the big food companies have done with, you know, cutting corners and putting fillers in and not labeling things correctly. And all the things that I've learned trying to be somebody who manufactures food and finding the right partners who are going to make a good product with me.

[A]

And is that where you are now? You're manufacturing? You're like, I'm not manufacturing.

[C]

We work with contract manufacturers comands. So I now have five pasta sauce skus, four spice skews and three cheese bites which are just cheese with the spices. So there's nothing, there's no like anti caking agents, there's no sugar. Obviously everything has to be clean, clean, clean and no seed oils. And I am thinking with the mindset of somebody who's trying to quit sugar. So that's why we've gone into those three different categories because as somebody who writes recipes, those are the things that I'm looking for. For example, the cheese bites I was making in my kitchen for years, toasting cheese with my spices and oh, that tastes like a ranch Dorito or that tastes like a, you know, a Cheez it and. But not wanting to have the carbs but still needing that crunchy snack, right. So I started calling companies that work with cheese and going to trade shows, talking to people who's going to work with me and make this product with me. So that's about 18 months just finding somebody who will do it without putting the Crap in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then going back and forth on R and D to get a product, plus the packaging design, which you know very well, that whole thing to get the CPG thing designed, and then where does it go on shelves? Well, right now we're talking because it's only available direct to consumer, because we just launched it a few months ago. But we're talking with the grocery stores. Where does it go? I'm talking with the buyers and they're like, does it go in salad? Like, because it's a salad topper. Does it go with crackers? Well, guess what? You're gonna go up against Frito Lay and they're not gonna like that very much.

[A]

They hate that.

[C]

They do hate that. So, you know, where do we find space on the shelf? And so my approach has always been, let's launch it direct to consumer first. Because my audience will tell me if they like something or if they don't like it. I try to have it as dialed in as possible before that happens so that hopefully I've gotten ahead of any obstacles. But we launch it that way first because a the margins. If we sell it direct to consumer, we have the money to pay for everything else. Okay. It's so expensive to go into grocery stores paying for the shelf space, offering free fills, which is the free case per sku per store. When you go into a big chain and all of this stuff adds up. And we have done a little bit of crowdfunding with my cookbook audience who invested in my company. They own a portion of my company.

[A]

That's smart.

[C]

They're the best. They're the word of mouth. They're the reason that I have.

[A]

What, are you liking that too? Is it like a GoFundMe? Is it a co production? How do you think about it?

[C]

It's called an equity crowdfund. That's what the legal term is by the sec. And they only recently started doing this, I think in the past five or six years, allowing people who aren't accredited investors to invest in a private company. So we raised close to $700,000, which by most CPG brands is absolute chump change. But for me, I'm like, this is insane and awesome that people believe in what we're doing so much that they're going to put their hard earned money into the company. They want to be investors. And I know, like, I was like, guys, this is the long game here. You're not going to like, see a big fat dividend check every quarter. This is not what we're Doing well,

[A]

you know, to answer my own question earlier, or at least an observation, the temper tantrum that I experience when I can't easily find the stuff that I want is sort of in direct correlation to the difficulty of launching a brand that could in fact satisfy that. And the ways that the retailers and the manufacturers and the whole giant top heavy, glittering edifice just makes it virtually impossible. People should understand how hard it is to launch a brand.

[C]

I want to give one example. I didn't know, I thought when you saw the sale tags at the grocery store, when you're like, oh, it's on sale, it's a dollar off, $2 or buy six, you know, get one free or whatever. The thing is, I thought the store was paying for that. The brand pays for that. I didn't know that going into it. So not only if I'm selling something on my website for $14, but I sell it into the store for $6 and then I've also got to pay for $2 off on this. Plus the fees that get added on all the, and the shipping and the freight. The problem of moving the food across the country. I need these sales to be able to pay for that because we're losing money hand over fist over here until we get to a place where we've scaled. And that's going to take getting multiple production partners across the country.

[A]

See, this is why it's a puzzle

[C]

that all has kind of got to raise up at the same time.

[A]

Right, right, right. But it's back to communicating. Because if people don't understand the fundamental difficulty of trying to do what you do, you have no hope of an equity funding thing. But that might be the way to get the thing that you want. You know, I, I know I told you this before, right. We started rolling, but when Dirty Jobs was the biggest show on cable, I had a Dirty Jobs cleaning product and I had it on shelves in every single Walmart in this country.

[C]

And that's huge.

[A]

And here's the heartbreaker. The people loved it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Everybody who used it was like, this is the best cleaning product ever. Well, it's gone. You can't get it anymore. And the reason is because Walmart simply can't put a thing on their shelf if that thing isn't supported by an advertising commitment.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And I mean, you're this millions and millions and millions of dollars until or unless you're able to spend that kind of money on your brand, then the existing shelf space, that's very expensive and

[C]

you have this beautiful platform that you've created for yourself. So I think that's why we're going to see a lot more people with platforms coming forth saying, hey, I really believe in this. Cause I'm making these products that are an alternative to the ones that are out there. We have to have grassroots support. We have to. In order for it to work. Or you just sell a bunch of equity and you get a huge investment and you blow it up the old fashioned way. I don't want to go that route yet. I know I'm gonna need to get funding. I know I'm gonna have to have investment at some point. I'm just not ready to do it yet. I want to see how much we can take it as a community first.

[A]

I think that's smart because I think it's happened in a lot of other verticals where everything, it's like this combination of homemade and lo fi. Your messaging, you can handle that yourself. The tech permits it, your distribution. Get on all the social channels, right? Tell your story as best you can. And then. No, but then you come back to logistics, transportation and like those real capital costs. And I don't know how to, you know, this is an ingestible we're talking about. It's gotta be refrigerated, it's gotta be shipped.

[C]

People who are in frozen or refrigerated stuff, I bow to your logistics prowess because we have shelf stable. I mean, our pasta sauce is three year shelf stable. I mean, it's a jarred sauce. It could last decades. You know what I'm saying? Like it's been properly done for anybody who's doing refrigerated stuff, frozen stuff. Holy crap, that's a lot.

[A]

Well, I mean, you know, go back to Hidden Valley. Sally Kellerman, she probably had the cushiest gig of that whole entire adventure because you, I mean, that Hidden Valley story is amazing, by the way. You should Google it.

[C]

I do need to google it because I sell a ranch. That's better. What?

[A]

Why is it better?

[C]

Because it's clean and it's delicious.

[A]

What's it called?

[C]

That's why Eat Happy Kitchen Ranch Dust.

[A]

Ranch dust.

[C]

Yeah. And here's the thing. I sell ranch dust. I sell it specifically. Again. I've been making this recipe at home. It's actually a recipe in my second cookbook, by the way. That's the other thing. Democratization. Get my cookbooks. You don't have to buy any of my stuff. Make the recipes in the cookbooks. See, there you go. I'm literally like making things available, right? So no, the ranch dust is because, first of all, I love ranch. What? Americans don't like ranch? Ranch is delicious. But when you buy the Hidden Valley, it has some things in it that you're not going to love seeing on the ingredient list. Don't come at me. Hidden Valley. They're laughing. They're laughing all the way to the bank. Right? Good.

[A]

They're going to be okay.

[C]

They're going to be just fine. So, yeah. So I just come up with stuff that I have not found clean versions of that I've been making, and make it and sell it.

[A]

Do you think when you do this, are you mostly trying to do stuff that's pleasing to you, or do you have your finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing? And are you trying to make something to satisfy a demand that is out there?

[C]

Well, I hope a little bit of both, because I think that you have to infuse it with your own little bit of, you know, inspiration. But you want to catch some. Catch some tailwinds with it.

[A]

Yeah. I ask everybody a version of that, simply because if you're not pleasing yourself, you're never going to last.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But if you're only pleasing yourself, then you're just building little statues to yourself. And that's not a business.

[C]

Yes. No.

[A]

So how do you decide which recipes go into these books? What kind of testing do you do?

[C]

Well, how do I decide? Well, I generally write a whole bunch of recipes, and then I'm like. Like for the next book. For example. I've always wanted to do a party book. I think being social is very important. Relationships are. And maybe this is a fallout from the whole Covid isolationism, but I think that us socializing and finding a way to socialize without having to just get completely, completely hopped up on sugar and alcohol. And I love alcohol, by the way. I'm not saying I'm not a toller, clearly. What's in this cup?

[A]

What is it?

[C]

What isn't? So I thought, let me put together party recipes. And then it just. I don't know, it just kind of. I just kind of think about it. I'm like, yo, you know, it'd be fun. Chipped beef. I don't know. Like, I just, like, think, like, you know, what's yummy? I just. I have a friend of mine who you can say to him, what would be good right now? And he'll always. He just knows what would be good right now. And I just kind of. I always love that. I'm like. And I think you know what would be fun? We need this kind of a thing. I don't know, it just.

[A]

See, I think I start to get it a little bit. I think part of eating happy has to be letting go of counting the calories, weighing your food, and doing all the physical, chemical, measurable things. The other thing is, you know, I think the first time I talked to Vinny, I said, can you just. Can you give me something? Because I'm at this point, I don't care.

[C]

Just tell me what to do, bro.

[A]

Just tell me what to do. And I said, I don't care what it looks like. I just want something that when I'm hungry, I can grab it and it's satisfying. And what did he send us? Chuck? What are those things that nut.

[C]

The nut butter.

[A]

Nut butter? Yeah.

[C]

Nut butter. Good.

[A]

It is good.

[C]

He stopped making them. He stopped for a minute. He's going to come back to him, but he stopped. Everyone's like, give me my nut butters.

[A]

Well, it was an interesting thing for me because when I'm in the mindset of saying, I don't need a meal, I don't need an experience, I need something that tastes good and that is easy to. I need fuel.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But fuel is not eating happy. It can't be. Fuel is.

[C]

And if you're fueling yourself, what if it also tasted good and wasn't killing you in the process?

[A]

Great.

[C]

Wouldn't that be great?

[A]

Sure. But if it looks like Soylent Green. Okay.

[C]

Like, if we've all bought those products that were like, if it's beige, put it in a shaker and then you drink it, right?

[A]

Yeah. It's like, okay, so it tastes better than I thought, but it's still beige and it's in some sort of thing. And that's not a meal and that's not communal and that's. It's not Italian.

[C]

No. I mean, I'm a feeder. I like to feed people. So I, you know, what can I say?

[A]

Well, you want to be happy?

[C]

I do. And the happiness also stems from, for me, being in a creative profession, having a lot of ups and downs. It's not great on the mindset. And when I did shift my focus to low carb and was no longer on this crazy sugar carb train, my brain chemistry did a wonderful thing, and that was my experience, and I'm thrilled about it. So I literally became a happier person by cutting out the processed foods.

[A]

You know what? Before I ask you these questions, that's actually worth. Really. How would you describe for people who haven't done this yet. When you're really off sugar for a day, for three days, for week, for month, what is that trip like? If you really do it right, if you really cut it out.

[C]

So the first time is always the hardest.

[A]

Hardest.

[C]

I was just waiting for a first time joke. But it is the most difficult because you are resetting things in your body. I don't know the science behind it, but I know that you will go through some sort of withdrawal. I don't understand it. You could perhaps have hot flushes and headaches. Some people get like a migraine. They always say, take more salt. If you can take a salt pill or electrolytes or whatever. But then don't get, don't get oak gone sugar. So there's a bit of withdrawal that happens. You can get cranky, you can have the plunges of your emotions might plunge up and down. And it gets hard because I think that we're just conditioned. It's like smoking. You're just. You associate certain places. Like I always stood outside in my theater in the 90s and would have a cigarette. And then you have to be like, okay, I'm not doing that anymore. So I have to figure out how I can have an association with that location. Right. Without the thing that you're trying to give up and have it be a positive association. So about a week in, gosh, I feel like you should really be feeling better. Maybe you wake up and your feet don't ache when they hit the floor. Maybe it's that your hands aren't so achy. Because that's another thing with too much sugar and processed foods. A lot of joint pain.

[A]

People feel inflammation.

[C]

Yeah, inflammation will go down. Maybe you'll find one night, in the middle of the night around a weekend, you're peeing. You have to get up to pee like three times. You're like, oh my God, why am I peeing so much? A lot of that is the flush. Because when your body is less inflamed, you'll release all that water and literally pee it out. And then generally you'll find that you drop maybe 3,5 pounds that first week. And everyone is riding high because you got a little evidence that it's working right. And then things taper off with that because you've dropped the water weight. I mean, if you're really big, you might drop a lot of water weight over some time, but eventually that kind of tapers off and then it becomes about kind of dialing it in. Like, am I still carb? Creeping here or you take. You're like, I got this, everybody. You know how we all do when things are going great? We think we have it dialed in, and we don't put in the work, like, that's on every topic. And I'm the exact same. I'm like, things are great. I don't need to meditate or, things are awesome. I don't need to do the thing that you have to do every day. And about a month in, you're gonna be like, ooh, you know what I can have now? Ice cream. I did it. I'm gonna have ice cream.

[A]

Time for a reward.

[C]

The reward is huge, right? We love a reward. And it's really hard to go. Okay, how do I figure out what the reward is and. And have it not be food? Because a lot of us, food is always the reward. That's how we were rewarded as kids. Or that, you know, you got good grades, you got to go out for ice cream. You got. You know, And I never want to demonize any kind of food. I feel like life should have these things. I don't want food to not be innovated or, like, I don't want to live in a world where there's not the fun things to eat. And I learned that, too, from Vinnie, because he's. He's a voice of reason and a very, like, crazy space. And it makes sense to me, and it resonates with me. But, yeah, then you go for, like, I'm gonna have that whole pizza at my favorite pizza place, and either you wake up feeling like crap or you don't. And you continue to do it until you wake up feeling like crap, and then you're like, oh, God, I gotta go back to it.

[A]

Yeah. And that's. I mean, that just strikes me as way more mental.

[C]

It is.

[A]

Than physiological.

[C]

It is. That's generally when the stuff comes up. Like, things come up. You're like, no, but I'm going to that party. And so. And so already always makes their XYZ thing that I eat, and I want to eat it. Great. Go eat it. Go eat it. Enjoy your life.

[A]

Do you. What do you think about cheat days? The concept.

[C]

I don't care. I don't care. You want to have a cheat day? Great. If that's what keeps you in the mindset of living your best life, that's awesome. If you go and have a cheat day, then that becomes a cheat day. Six weeks, and then you're off the rails again. There's probably something to look at there.

[A]

Well, I just don't. It seems to me, even if you are fairly disciplined, the argument says, well, look, you're human, and if you really love this stuff, treat yourself every so often.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Just don't be a lunatic. But if you do that, then that means the thing you're holding out for is still the thing that you crave most, for sure. So you haven't eliminated the craving, you've just lessened.

[C]

You've just closed the window, eliminated the relationship to that thing. That is dysfunctional. That's what you haven't eliminated. If something is making you crave something so hard, it's not about that thing. Something else is going on. That's what I'm trying to say. If so, then you can just have. I love. Oh, I love that thing. I'm gonna have a few bites and you literally will be like, mm, that was good. I'm done. Oh, that tasted too sweet. I'm surprised. Oh, wait, I quit sugar so everything tastes extra sweet now. So I can have a couple bites of that thing and it doesn't torture me. And I go, oh, my God, it's freedom. But this happens over the course probably of several months to years. Cause we're all trying to redefine our relationship with food.

[A]

But there's also the collective. There's also.

[C]

There's grandmothers, there's nonnas. There's cultural.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Don't tell Mexicans not to have the tortilla. Don't tell Italians not to have the pasta. Don't tell Asian folks not to have the. Right. It's a whole. I get it. Everybody has the cultural pressure, and I'm a feeder. I like to feed people, and when they're like, oh, I don't eat fat. I'm like, what? No, you have to eat my meatballs. I don't eat red meat.

[A]

What?

[C]

No. You know, I get it. We're pushers.

[A]

I mean, how do you. The thing that tasted, quote, unquote Good 500 years ago, right? What was that?

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

And what did it taste like? And on what basis did the fat part of the bat like, the. Most people go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, the mead. That's it. That's the thing.

[C]

I've never had mead. I would like to try. Is it not good? Is it too sweet?

[A]

What's in the box? What'd you bring me? Oh, is there mead in there?

[C]

No, just spices and pasta sauce and cheese bites.

[A]

Were these the crunchy things you were talking about?

[C]

Yeah, ranch.

[A]

Is this good for me?

[C]

Yeah, it's just cheese and spice. That's all it is.

[A]

I. E. Not bad for me. Eat Happy Kitchen.

[C]

White onion and cheddar, which is kind of like a sour cream and cheddar situation, but it doesn't have sour cream. You know what I'm saying? But that's the flavor profile. And then there's a barbecue one. Where's the barbecue? Here it is.

[A]

Okay. See? Very satisfying. Sometimes you just need a little crunch.

[C]

Sometimes you just need a little crunch. Can you just do a little ad for it right now? Sometimes you just need a little crunch.

[A]

Well, you know what? You're adjacent to a Copyright infringement. A very. Oh, you'll remember. Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

[C]

Almond Joy's got nuts. Mouths don't. Because sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

[A]

Yeah, that is a.

[C]

That will forever be in my brain.

[A]

See, now we're getting somewhere.

[C]

Yeah, now we're getting somewhere. It took five hours.

[A]

Well, you take voiceover.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you put music behind them. You got a whole new genre called jingles.

[C]

Jingles.

[A]

Jingles are very powerful.

[C]

Very powerful.

[A]

They're like metaphors and that whole. Sometimes you feel like a nut. That's a. I believe it's called a tautology. Where. Oh, God, Chuck. What was the tautology?

[C]

Like t. A U. T. Ology.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's sort of a. Like a syllogism. Never mind. But that's even worse.

[C]

Pedantic.

[A]

I am Genos. Remember Geno's? Oh, yeah.

[C]

Pizza rolls.

[A]

Remember it? Oh, let me see.

[B]

Everybody goes to Geno's.

[A]

Because Geno's is the place to go. Yeah, Brilliant.

[C]

Everybody in the D.C. area. When June Reese self defense commercials played.

[A]

I remember.

[C]

I remember every word of that. I'm not gonna sing it because.

[A]

Racist.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. But it's in my. It will always be there.

[A]

Matsuda Mazdara. Yeah. You gotta be very careful.

[C]

The lead in the vocalization that goes into the lead in of saying it. I appreciate that so much because I just did a session yesterday where they're like, you know, give it a little pre life. They call it pre life. Give it a little pre life. So that was pre life, what you're doing.

[A]

So pre life is the sound you make before you articulate.

[C]

You know, I was hungry and I thought, I need some Eat Happy Kitchen. Like, that's pre life. Give it a little pre life. It makes it sound natural.

[A]

What would post life sound like?

[C]

I was hungry. I don't know. It just like. Just let the Word linger like a legato. Like a whole note that never ends.

[A]

Kind of trails all, and then just go.

[C]

Then you do a little Christina Aguilera. I don't know. I don't know. It never ends.

[A]

The actual jingle with the music, everything was, everybody goes to Geno's because Gino's is the place to go. Everybody goes to Geno's because Gino's is the place to go. And it just.

[C]

And then you're going to Geno's.

[A]

It goes through the circle of fifths. And if you really think about it, it's an indictment of how easily we're beguiled, because you would just sit there and not really question it. In fact, the logic is irrefutable.

[C]

Where was Geno's?

[B]

In Baltimore.

[C]

In Baltimore.

[A]

There's only one. Which begs the question. I don't think everybody went.

[C]

I guess not there anymore. Now, I didn't open one. Yeah, they certainly didn't have it in

[A]

D.C. i'll tell you another one.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Since you're a big drinker. Schaeffer.

[C]

Remember Schaefer Chaffier. We called it in high school. Steal a case of Chaffier.

[A]

$2.99 a case. When I was in college. Schaefer is the one beer to have when you're having more than one. That is just.

[C]

That is. That's just good copywriting right there.

[A]

I mean, that's madman stuff.

[C]

Yeah, that is. That is Don Draper's.

[A]

You see Don Draper walking down the hall going, hey, fellas, I got something. I think I'm onto something. The one beer to have when you're having more than one. And by the way, are you the kind of guy that only has one beer? You're in the wrong room. Champion.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Chaffier.

[A]

So you need a tautology for eat happy.

[C]

I do.

[B]

And the definition of a tautology is saying the same thing twice in different words. Generally considered to be a fault of style.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

They arrived one after the other in succession.

[C]

That sounds like being redundant. Is that the same?

[B]

It does sound.

[A]

It is. Well, if it's unintentional, it's a mark of idiocy. Right. But if you do it on purpose, then you're either in on the joke or you're selling something.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Because, of course, the magic of advertising.

[C]

Well, I'm selling something. Kids.

[A]

That's to say, kids, I'm selling something. You know, kids, you just. Everything, you just repeat it and repeat it, repeat it and repeat it.

[C]

I'm learning that, by the way, I'm learning that as somebody who's building a brand, because I feel like I've said all the things that I need to say on social media. How many more times can I repeat myself? And it turns out I have not even done 1/10 of 1% of saying all the things the number of times I need to say them. Which is bonkers and makes sense because we see during the NFL, during the football games, we see all the same things over and over again. And there's obviously a reason for that.

[A]

Think about the habits you're trying to create and think about the thinking you're going to have to debunk right now. Think about the money and the time and the brilliance that was spent in creating the habit. The pre existing thing.

[C]

Oh, yeah, right. I'm up against it.

[A]

Go down. I quit Coca Cola.

[C]

I quit. I quit.

[A]

What do you mean you quit?

[C]

It's too much work.

[A]

Oh, right.

[C]

I'm done.

[A]

Okay. I'm not trying to discourage you.

[C]

No, no, no, but it is. That's exactly. I'm unwinding. I'm attempting to unwind that programming.

[A]

Yes. And I want people who are listening, if anyone still is. God bless you, people.

[C]

We love you.

[A]

We love you a lot. We love you.

[C]

We love you.

[A]

It's important that people understand why they buy the foods they buy separate and apart from the cravings they think they have. We've been manipulated. And that might sound a little too conspiratorial, but that's what advertising is. We've been taught that crest is different than gleam and that gleam is different than Colgate.

[C]

Gleam. Good. Throwback.

[A]

Remember Gleam?

[C]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Well, now there's something called Happy Tooth, which doesn't have any of the stuff in it. All the, you know, the bad stuff.

[C]

Oh, the fluoride or the. Whatever they.

[A]

Which, by the way, don't we like fluoride. Until five minutes ago, fluoride was the thing that kept my teeth from falling out.

[C]

Right. Right.

[A]

Now, apparently it's why there's blood in my urine fortnightly.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Wait, what? Oh, I haven't told you. Yeah, a lot of blood in the urine.

[C]

A lot.

[A]

Lot. No, I'm kidding. Of course there's not. But look, you don't need a lot.

[C]

Call the doctor.

[A]

You don't need a lot of blood in the urine to really get your attention.

[C]

Honestly, that is very true. Just a drop, just a slight bit is cause for alarm.

[A]

Well, it diffuses in such a way that you would think maybe you threw a Rod. You know, or like something really cataclysmic happens.

[C]

It's not good.

[A]

Well, it's. Look, it's never good, but it's rarely as bad as it seems. Okay, I don't know if that's true, by the way, but if I were to write a jingle about it, I would say, you know, and I would

[C]

not write it in the urine. It's never as bad as it seems. Or is it?

[A]

We don't know in Terrabong. We don't know.

[C]

We don't know.

[A]

We're curious and surprised. Yeah, that's what happens, Chuck. When you look down and you see that there's blood in the bowl, your first reaction is going to be, what the heck is that? Wonder, questioning, alarm.

[C]

And then cool ear winged ing with.

[B]

And then you remembered you ate some beets yesterday.

[C]

Some red beets.

[A]

That is such a boy.

[C]

That is a real mind meld.

[A]

That's not a urine thing. That's back when she started with the whole dowel pooping up your bowl thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I showed up late for a shoot once. I missed. There was nothing at craft services left but beets. And they were delicious. And I ate probably two pounds of beets. I was starving.

[C]

Starving.

[A]

And I went home that night and had a relatively normal dinner. And the next morning, into the bathroom, took care of business, looked in the bowl. My God. My God. I was.

[C]

Have you had beets since?

[A]

Well, I hopped on the Internet, you know. Oh, yeah. I eat beets all the time now. Because now, you know, now I eat as many as I can because it tickles me to look in there and go, like, see, not blood.

[C]

I love to know your hobbies. Thank you.

[A]

It's a big one.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But I was so sure that I was either bleeding out or something really catastrophic had happened. And the last thing I saw before I went to the doctors was. Unless, of course, you've had an inordinate amount of beets, which really will.

[C]

And you had.

[A]

Had all the beets mess with your stool in a big way. Turn it around.

[B]

You've never seen it in your urine either.

[A]

No, I haven't.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Why does asparagus have such an impact on our pee? Is this in any of your books?

[C]

It's not. I have asparagus recipes, so if anybody wants to do some at home tests. Isn't it a genetic thing? Like, some people have attached earlobes, Some people have stinky asparagus pee.

[A]

You know that.

[C]

Or does everyone have stinky asparagus pain?

[A]

I think everybody I Don't think you get a pass on that. Okay, what about the crease in the earlobe? Do you think there's any truth to the fact?

[C]

Is that. Not from, like, just sleeping funny?

[A]

I thought it was, but somebody. I have a crease in this one,

[C]

but not in that one.

[A]

Not in this one. And then it's like, well, you've got a real blood.

[C]

I did the 23 in me, and they were. They were like, you probably have attached earlobes, and I don't. So I don't know how accurate that data is.

[A]

Oh, they're attached. They're just not attached to your jawline.

[C]

They're removable.

[A]

I have some questions for you from the household.

[C]

Oh, yes. Sandy's questions.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

This is a segment we like to call Sandy's Questions.

[A]

Sandy's Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Recipes that we've made from this book.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. Zucchini pasta Bolognese.

[C]

Love it.

[A]

Chicken with artichokes, spinach, and cherry tomatoes.

[C]

That's a good one. That's a good one. We're gonna rename that one Date Night Chicken. Cause people have written me saying that they get laid when they make that rest.

[A]

Yeah, how about that?

[C]

So first you need to have a chat.

[A]

First the chicken lays the egg. And then jimmy crack corn and. I don't care. Eggplant parmesan.

[C]

Great.

[A]

Roasted asparagus with manchego and pine nuts.

[C]

Spinolis. Yes.

[A]

Yep. Ginger cilantro. Cauliflower rice.

[C]

Ooh, yum.

[A]

Chimichurri sauce.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Chicken cauliflower rice bowl. I was concerned about that because the rice is rice. Good, bad, you don't care. I mean, I know it's happy, but I thought rice.

[C]

It's cauliflower rice. You're not having rice.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. All right. It was the word rice that throw it off.

[C]

Yeah, Well, I put it in quotes. Cause it's not. Should I use an EM dash next time?

[A]

I'd go with an N. I don't think it warrants a giant.

[C]

Not a full M dash.

[A]

No. And certainly not an Interrobon roasted tomato basil soup. Yeah, that's actually. I mean, that's from. I like them all. Oh, it is?

[C]

Yeah. So you have that book too.

[A]

Oh, well, God, I got all your books. We've also used barbecue dust on pork tenderloin.

[C]

And I've got some barbecue dust here for you.

[A]

Nice. I mean, dust. It was such an interesting noun to really incorporate into the culinary space.

[C]

Yeah, it sounds like it's dirty, but it's not you gotta just put a little dusting on there. You put a little dust.

[A]

Sounds dusty. Dill dust.

[C]

Dill dust, which we've now changed to ranch dust for the obvious alliterative, obviously.

[A]

Then here's one that surprised me. Dildo dust.

[C]

Yeah, that's in there too. You have to order the books. It's like a surprise ending. That's the third ending in the choose your own adventure.

[A]

I think it's a happy ending. And I think you might want to save that for your pop up marinara sauce. Ribiata sauce Puttanesca.

[C]

Yeah. That won Pasta Sauce of the year in 2024.

[A]

Did it?

[C]

It did. I will talk about that till the day I die. By the way, here's the thing about having being green to the grocery industry. I thought to myself, no one's doing puttanesca. It's like the best. We're gonna kill it. And then now I realize why no one's doing puttanesca, because Americans don't know what a puttanesca sauce is. And then it won Pasta Sauce of the year. And so I have a moral imperative to discuss puttanesca sauce, which basically means hooker sauce.

[A]

Yeah, it's a horse. It's a horse.

[C]

It's horse sauce. There's all sorts of conflicting. Like, Italians can argue about anything, but especially about the origin of puttanesca sauce. And like, did the whores make it? Then there's a story like, no, the wives made it to make their husband stinky. So they wouldn't. It doesn't make any sense. It never makes sense. So it's a sauce that's a red sauce that adds olive, caper, onion, oregano, red pepper flake, and if you're doing it properly, a little bit of anchovy. But in America, we can't do that because most Americans are not a fan of the anchovy. So we achieved that same briny flavor with the caper brine in our puttanesca sauce. And it won Pasta Sauce of the year in 2024. Now it's 2023.

[A]

It's so interesting. But to my earlier point, was there a time in our species when the plurality said, oh, anchovies, delicious. Pass the anchovies. Who doesn't want them?

[C]

I think that would be a great topic for one of those podcasts that does the deep dive on the history of different kinds of foods, because I would like to know that as well, because I love anchovies, anchovy paste. I put it in all kinds of things, But I understand that mentally people have a hard time with it, but it's just salty goodness.

[A]

What do you think about cooking shows in general and what are your favorites and why?

[C]

I love cooking shows. I want to do a cooking show, but I'm also doing a cooking show because it's called the Internet. So we have the ability to produce our own cooking shows. So I put cooking content on the Internet all the time. My favorite cooking shows, I think are more personality based. Like, I love Ina Garten and I love Gordon Ramsay. And who else do I love? Megan. Giada's great.

[A]

Giada? Yeah, she's big. I see her all the time now.

[C]

She's fabulous. And all these people have been doing this for so long. But one thing I learned about recipe writing because I had to make and test all of my own recipes because I'm not a celebrity coming at it from that. I don't have people writing recipes for me. I'm writing all of my own recipes. I found out that there's a lot of non testing of recipes because I would get a cookbook from somebody that I liked, and then the recipe wouldn't work. And then I would find out that it was being ghostwritten and not tested or corrected. I was like, well, hey, I don't want to have that kind of rep if I don't have anything else to stand on. All I have is like, that my shit's good.

[A]

So that goes in the AI column.

[C]

That could go in the AI column.

[A]

The artificial something's fake, something's ghost written, something's not. Yeah, look, my theory is not yet, but sooner or later, that's all gonna fall weirdly out of favor. Would you do a cooking show for a network?

[C]

Oh, yeah. Oh, 1,000%.

[A]

Yeah. You know what I pitched? You'll appreciate this. I was at one of those upfronts a couple years ago, and the head of the Food Network was there, and he was like, would you ever do a cooking show? And I said, well, you know, probably not. I don't cook much, but I do an eating show, you know, for sure. And he's like, well, you could cook

[C]

and you could eat well.

[A]

I had two pitches. The first was called Mess Kit, where I'd go to famous battlefields with a cook and a historian, to your point.

[C]

And yeah, I love this.

[A]

And the historian would tell me exactly what happened in Hastings or Normandy, wherever,

[C]

and you'd have to eat that shit.

[A]

That's it. I'd have a cook there who would, you know, and together we Would cook.

[C]

We're making hardtack.

[A]

Whatever they were eating, that's what you eat. He liked it. But the one he really sparked, too. I would go. I would go out into the world and find people, you know, with nothing like your books. Like the old Betty Crocker books.

[C]

Love those books. I love vintage. I want to make a steak Diane. I want to do pineapple rings on ham. I want to do all that.

[A]

It's that. But it was. For me, it was the casserole. Like the meatloaf casserole?

[C]

Hell, yeah.

[A]

And anything with gelatin that was just

[C]

like, what, a congealed salad.

[A]

A congealed salad, right. I wanted to go and find the descendants of people who put those recipes in there who would have surely owned the books themselves, and then go and make this.

[C]

I have several of those books I collect. I love old cookbooks.

[A]

I called it Eat Me. And I thought. I thought it could really.

[C]

Oh, how clever.

[A]

Just a thing I could shoot with the people. Just the real people. So he said he'd get back to me, but never did.

[C]

You still waiting to hear.

[A]

Still waiting.

[C]

That's what my husband likes to say to me when I see a. Oh, I auditioned for that role. He goes, you still waiting to hear? I'm like, yeah, I am. They never got back to me.

[A]

I was up for the lead role

[B]

in the Merchant of Venice.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

I didn't get it.

[A]

We used to laugh, man. I mean, for years, the amount of auditions, you know? And the thing is, you just never. You never tell anybody what you're doing.

[C]

No, you can't.

[A]

Especially your mother.

[C]

You learn that early on.

[A]

Because all they're gonna do. Did you hear back from the people

[C]

audition you went to? I actually was thinking when I came here not to dox where you guys are. There's an audition place right down the street that I used to go to as a baby actor when I first moved to town. And I was like, oh, these are giving me feelings coming back to this neighborhood.

[A]

Little PTSD.

[C]

Yeah, a little bit. Trying to find parking at 5pm on a Friday to do a McDonald's callback where there's 14 people staring in their laptops and not paying attention. And. Yeah, it's cool.

[A]

Another ingenious jingle. Man, you deserve a break today.

[B]

You deserve Barry, man, a lot of ways.

[C]

What's the. No, it's the icy cold, thick shake sundaes and apple pie. Two Big Mac, filet o fish jaw,

[A]

beef patty, special sauce, lettuce, pickles, onions,

[C]

special sauce, lettuce no, but it's. The thing where they used to. Is in the 80s. They're too young.

[A]

Yeah. Too young. Sorry. I'm Big Mac.

[C]

Filet of fish, quarter pound of french fries, icy cold thick shake, sundaes and apple pie. That's what they would say. Yeah, like a. Like a mantra. Like, you're. Like. You're in a parade and you're doing, like, the drum line is.

[A]

That's so interesting that that's stuck in your crawl, I guess. You know, and songs, too. Oh, my God. We started with those.

[C]

Don't. Don't. Well, that's another show.

[A]

No, it's actually. It's not. It's all part of communicating. And I'm sure I can hit you with some theme show trivia that would warrant the use of an Interrobon.

[C]

Does it involve Alan Thicke?

[A]

Thick Allen.

[C]

We used to call him Alan Thicke. Who is Thick Alan?

[A]

You knew Alan Thicke, didn't you, Chuck?

[C]

I knew.

[B]

I'd met him a couple times.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because of Rico's show is a friend of mine, Tanya. She's lovely. Yeah.

[A]

Does she.

[C]

But I only. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. She's in Carpenteria. I give her. Absolutely. Alan Thicke's widow gets whatever she wants. Okay.

[A]

Remember Leave it to Beaver?

[C]

Yes, but they were in reruns by the time I was watching.

[A]

But yes. Remember the theme song?

[C]

It was like a whistling thing. And then they showed Jerry. Jerry Mathis.

[A]

Jerry Mathers as the Beaver.

[C]

And Eddie has to.

[A]

There was a second one. Yeah, that's it.

[C]

It.

[A]

Six seasons in, they changed the theme song.

[C]

They did.

[A]

Without changing the notes. What they did was they changed the rhythm. And it had never been done before, but they updated it so it went from. To.

[C]

Oh, they jammed.

[A]

I thought that was amazing. Gilligan's island, you know that one, right?

[C]

Yeah. Sit right back and hear a tale

[A]

Tale of a faithful trip the original.

[C]

There was an original. What was that?

[A]

Gilligan, the Skipper to the Millionaire, the movie star and the rest.

[C]

Here on professor and Mary. They didn't count on professor and Marianne both being the two hotties that would really. They thought Ginger was gonna be it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

They didn't know the garment.

[A]

Don Wells agent called and said, what do you mean, and the rest?

[C]

Don Wells gave me a blanket in 2004 at Slamdance, when I had a film in the film festival. And I still. I cherished that blanket. And she was the nicest human. And it was like, again, still very early on in my career. So shout out to Dawn Wells giving me a blanket in 2004. It's still in my car right now.

[A]

Is dawn still in your car?

[C]

I did not kidnap her.

[A]

No. Is she still around?

[C]

She was lovely. No, she passed.

[A]

I'm sorry. She was something.

[C]

She was lovely.

[A]

She really was. Here's some questions I promised to answer.

[C]

The young people in the room are like, who is that?

[A]

These dudes know Dawn Wells. They know.

[B]

I saw her do the Odd Couple with Marsha Wallace.

[C]

On Broadway? No, just out here in the hallway in North Hollywood.

[B]

They did it in my office for me. It was great. It was amazing.

[A]

That is command performance.

[C]

That's weird.

[B]

I forget where it was. I knew Marcia because I'd done a pilot with Marcia, and so she said,

[A]

oh, you want to come see me on this play? I'm doing it.

[B]

I'm like, oh, it's done. Well, I want to come.

[C]

Hell, yeah.

[B]

Meet Don Wells.

[A]

Yeah, it was. She was great. Why wouldn't you?

[C]

When we first moved to town and my husband was sitting. He had an audition because he started as an actor and then became a writer. And he was sitting next to Aaron Moran at the audition, and he was like. And that we didn't know that, like, once your show was off the air, you then have to go back to auditioning for things. He was like, oh, my God, Joanie's here. You know, it was like, such a thing. And then one time I went in. It was a radio spot for Blockbuster. Okay, so it's radio. We're not even on camera, Right. And they're partnering us all up. Back when they would still hire four actors to be in one radio spot where they had the money to pay for that. And this woman is rolled in by her caretaker in a wheelchair. And I go to the sign in, and I'm signing. I'm like, oh. And I look, and it's Rose Marie from the Dick Van Dyke Show.

[A]

No.

[C]

And I was like, you did not make Rose Marie audition for a blockbuster. Like, just have one line. Is grandma. And I was like, oh, is this. This is Hollywood. This is the real Hollywood.

[A]

Oh, man, that is such a great story, though.

[C]

Isn't that crazy? I was like, oh, my God. And also, too, I was probably the only one nerdy enough to, like, know who she was. So we had a lovely conversation. I'm still waiting to hear.

[A]

I'm still waiting. Here, jot that down. That's not a bad title for this. What are your thoughts on seed oils? Do you think they are all bad?

[C]

Okay. I always say, refer to Dr. Kate Shanahan's book Dark Calories. But now there's several books as well. But she wrote a really good book, and I interviewed her, and she makes a lot of sense. I avoid the seed oils whenever possible. It's not possible to avoid them all the time, because every restaurant. There's no way a restaurant can stay in business without using some form of seed oil. It's really tricky.

[A]

But this is my temper tantrum. Like, what are you. I mean, this. These things to me seem right. Like, you could justify putting a skull and crossbones on them. They're just not good for you.

[C]

I wouldn't. I don't touch them at home, however. Okay, so this is the price complaint. Everybody wants cleaner food on the shelves. Nobody wants to pay for it. It's become untenable. I even get kicked back. We have eaten so much in our margins to get to a $9.99 shelf price. When I sell it online for 14 bucks a jar, I'm selling a really nice sauce, right? So think about something like olive oil as compared to highly processed seed oils. And I'm not. It's not okay. But I'm just saying, like, this is why restaurants have to use it. Cause restaurants are already operating on razor thin margins. So you just really have to, like, either you find some guy and you're just gonna pay an upcharge. And you're okay with that, by the way, the people who originally started buying all of my stuff, you know, I'm indebted to them because they're the ones who chose with their wallet and to pay for expensive food until I could even get the price down a little more. So it's tough. And seed oil's not. I'm not a fan.

[A]

You know what it feels.

[C]

Olive oil, coconut oil, butter, done. Tallow. Great.

[A]

It feels like fraud to me.

[C]

It is food fraud.

[A]

No, I mean literal. Like the reason I'm looking at Minnesota and I'm looking at California, not to get political, but we're so used. The taxpayers are so used to paying so much of their money, knowing it's going to be wasted. Right? We know it.

[C]

I know a homeowner and a taxpayer here. Yes, yes, I agree.

[A]

And so we're used to it. We're used to seed oils. It's like, well, it's in everything. And, gosh, to take it out of everything would be so onerous and blah, blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah. We just take it.

[C]

Well, the second part of your statement is what I disagree with, because we have to start taking action to take it out. But it's almost like this confluence of events has to happen. People have to understand how expensive everything is. People have to start choosing where they can. You have to start treating, picking different food things that you're allocating where your resources are going. Not everybody has endless resources, of course. So how are we gonna change this and make a difference? Maybe it's a community garden. Maybe it's that you share a cow with your buddies.

[A]

Like it's gonna have to be a big ass garden, man.

[C]

A big ass garden.

[A]

We're a sick country, right? We're sick.

[C]

We're very sick. And the seed oils don't help. And I'm actually really sorry that this has now become a completely divided political issue that should not be a political issue. Vinnie and I were talking about no seed oils back long before, and everybody was like, you're crazy, you're nuts. And then the science kind of started coming out and people were writing about it and bringing the attention to it and. And all things being equal, wouldn't you rather have the oil that's pressed out of the olive than the super. Now, that being said, sesame oil, right? That's taking a sesame seed and cold pressing it and you put a little bit of sesame oil in your beautiful stir fry, right? That's not the same thing. Because people write me sesame oil is a seed oil. I'm like, that's not the same thing. You can have some sunflower seeds, corn syrup, you know what I mean?

[A]

Corn syrup.

[C]

Corn syrup is. It's just batshit bonkers, bonkers bananas that it's everywhere.

[A]

And yet. So that's a better example. It's like, what are you gonna do? Like, we throw our hands.

[C]

But here's the thing. We started having the corn syrup dialogue a long time ago, and now it has been pulled out of things. And by the way, big food, the big food companies, if they hear you complaining enough and not buying their products, guess what? They're gonna change their formulas to take those things out. So we do have some power there.

[A]

Yes. All the way back to the very first point an hour and a half ago. Communication. You've gotta grab the country by its metaphorical lapels and you have to shake them. Now, I'm sticking with this metaphor for another 10 seconds because, you know, when I see Nick Shirley, citizen journalist, right, Getting the country's attention vis a vis the fraud in Minnesota, you know, they knew about it for the last nine years in Minnesota. Like they were. Charges had been filed, they were aware, but there was no urgency There was no outrage. There was no. Holy crap. Look at that.

[C]

Interesting.

[A]

Now Nick Shirley goes in, and now every news outlet is really having. I guarantee you they're having staff meetings going. You know, why weren't we there? Why didn't we do that? It's gonna happen with corn syrup. I bet it's gonna happen with seed oils.

[C]

I feel like it's happening with corn syrup. They are taking it out of formulas. They're gonna continue to with seed oils. I feel like the kickback to create it into a political issue has been. I was like, oh, that's strategic. They're communicating that. It's now political, and you're nutty if you want to get rid of. There's nothing wrong with seed oils. You're bonkers if you want to get rid of seed. Like, they're spinning the messaging with communication. And so I.

[A]

No, you've got to make it. If people are going to defend corn syrup, you can do it. You can write a tautological jingle and use all the interrobongs in the world and get people distracted. But look what they're doing now. They're otherwise rational. People are defending the fraud.

[C]

Right.

[A]

They're saying, look, it's bad, but if we eliminate fraud, what damage might we cause? It's like, what are you even saying?

[C]

Isn't that what happened with the tobacco in the 80s?

[A]

That's exactly what happened.

[C]

Everyone was terrified of, like, well, you can't get rid of a whole industry. Well, you can, and we'll come up with new ways of economic prosperity.

[A]

You made the point perfect. Standing outside, smoking a cigarette.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Wasn't about the cigarette. It was about the place you were standing, the people you were standing with. It was about the routine. It was the cheat moment in your day.

[C]

Dopamine hit.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And you got to chat with your

[A]

friends, and all of that thing got baked into the habit. Right. And that's why it's tough to break. But it's. We use beef tallow, ghee, and olive oil.

[C]

Wonderful.

[A]

Are you concerned about using plastic and aluminum? If so, have you replaced them in your kitchen?

[C]

Yeah, I try to be clean about that. I always feel like every three or four years, we find out new information about our cookware that you then have to be like, okay, well, wait. First it was the BPAs, then it was like, well, the nonstick's not good.

[A]

What's a bpa?

[C]

The bipolyprocess.

[A]

Oh, right, right. Yeah. Of course.

[C]

You're with me. But anything that's coated in the plastic that's toxic for us. Like, maybe it's non stick cookware that's been coated.

[A]

Oh, ptfe. Polytetrafluorethyle.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Inside of T FAL T FAL Cookware. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

You can't find it that much anymore.

[A]

Ah. You know, because.

[C]

Because of, you know, polytetrafluor.

[A]

Ethylene.

[C]

Polytetrafluoroethylene.

[A]

Polyethyl.

[C]

Polyethyl tetrafluoroethylene. Ethyl. Ethyl. Don't bring ethyl into this.

[A]

So close. Glass storage containers. Metal cutting boards.

[C]

I've not used the metal cutting boards. I'm. I'm a big fan because I just like people. Fans have made me these beautiful handmade wooden cutting boards that I'm obsessed with. And I love the booze, but I just love them. So for butchering and stuff like that, I mean, you can't. In a restaurant, you have to use metal.

[A]

And how much actual butchering do you do?

[C]

Well, I mean, let's say I'm just spatchcocking a chicken, or I'm taking a prime rib and I'm cutting it into ribeye.

[A]

Spatchcocking.

[C]

Spatchcocking. Yeah.

[A]

Just walk me through that.

[C]

Take apart. You. You take apart the chicken and then you lay it flat.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In parts, basically. You're basically, like, splaying it.

[A]

Oh, okay. Splaying that one.

[C]

I know, but it's called spatchcocked.

[A]

Two of my favorite words grouped up in a most surprising way. Is it hyphenated or do you go with an EM dash?

[C]

Something like spatchcock. It is a compound noun.

[B]

It's all together.

[A]

Is there one word I feel so validated?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You think there's any validity to the idea of eating foods in a particular order for digestion and to help manage blood sugar?

[C]

I'm not an expert in that, but if it blows your hair back, sure.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna file that under unpersuasive.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Allulose. Monk fruit.

[C]

Okay, here's my thing. As sugar substitutes, I have a dessert chapter in all of my books because like I said earlier, I believe in living a life. When you quit sugar, you're gonna be shocked how sweet things taste. So I use the least amount of sweet possible, but I use real sugar. Maybe it's coconut sugar, maybe it's regular sugar, whatever. But it's sugar. And sugar is sugar. I learned that from Vinny. Your liver doesn't know the difference. Now, the sugar substitutes and the sugar, artificial sugars. I hate the way they taste. I think they taste like you brewed sugar through dirty tea socks. And I don't want any part of that. I don't like the way they taste, the way they make the food taste. And they upset my stomach. I know I might be in the minority on that, but I don't work with them. So I. Again, an unpersuasive. If you want to mess with it, go for it, bruh.

[A]

So, I mean, what is your recommendation then? Is there a sugar substitute that you like?

[C]

There is a sugar substitute.

[A]

What's it called?

[C]

That I like. Yeah.

[A]

No, see, you're really not playing the game. You can't pass.

[C]

Because everybody wants to know. Like, everybody goes to Geno's. Geno's is where everybody goes. Yeah, Everybody eats stevia because stevia. Like, if you like stevia, use stevia. If you like monk fruit and erythritol, use it. I avoid the talls. The talls are sugar, alcohol, malitol, erythritol. But that's why they cut erythritol with some monk fruit to keep you from getting disaster pants. Because the sugar alcohol is malitol. What did I say? Malitol, xylitol.

[A]

What are disaster pants exactly? What do you mean?

[C]

Just when you can't trust a fart.

[A]

Oh, right.

[C]

That kind of situation. So, you know. But not everybody has that reaction. Some people just eat it and their tummies are great. It can affect some gut flora adversely. So. And I don't like the taste, so why I don't mess with it.

[A]

I wonder if there's a disclaimer on the product that speaks to that. Because I don't Trustworthiness of the ovaries

[C]

by the FDA generally regarded as safe.

[A]

Are you concerned about products like Apeel? Does it concern you?

[C]

I don't know what that is.

[A]

It's the coating that they put on fruits to make it look appeal.

[C]

I get it.

[A]

Yeah. AP like how they polish.

[C]

They wax the apples.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I don't like that. I have an apple tree at home. I have the best apples. So plant an apple tree in your house.

[A]

That's all. I wasn't gonna say anything, but your apples are pretty sweet.

[C]

Thank you much so, so much.

[A]

You're so welcome. What's the best cookware there is?

[C]

Stainless steel is great. I use some all clad. I use a couple of all clad nonsticks. And I love cast iron. I haven't messed with Hexclad. That's my next. That's actually a project that I have is to get some Hexclad and work with that and go down the rabbit hole.

[A]

You mean like to do the VO for them in their new campaign, Hexclad?

[C]

I'll do your VO if you send me some pants. I work for pans plus 10. Thank you.

[A]

What do you think of the new FDA nutrition guidelines?

[C]

Oh, yeah. Something just came out today. I saw Nina Teicholz put up the reverse pyramid. I was confused. I didn't understand. Why did they just flip? Like, I understand what they're doing, but, like, I don't think it's going to be clear to Americans now.

[A]

Vinny sat right there and said he believes the greatest lie ever foisted on Western civilization.

[C]

Absolutely. I agree with him on that. And it's not just because I've been completely brainwashed by him, which I have.

[A]

He is beguiling, isn't he? Any thoughts on intermittent fasting?

[C]

I love it. I do it. But also, if you're hungry, eat.

[A]

So what do you mean? You do it like, four or five hours at a time?

[C]

Definitely between lunch and dinner. Sometimes between breakfast and lunch. I like not eating if I can.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Not eating after, like, 7pm and then going to bed and having some coffee and then waiting until I'm legitimately hungry the next morning. But I'm also. I think people need to find what works for them. I think part of the issue is that you hear a guy talking about intermittent fasting and everybody's like, yeah, I'm doing five, two bros. And then, like, you hear a guy talking about macros. You don't count my macros. And I don't mean to, like. I'm not trying to, like, you know, culturally appropriate. I'm not culturally appropriating the bros, but I am. But generally, they're the launch pad. The biohackers are the. And I love biohacking. I think that's awesome. Figure out what works for you. But at a certain point for me, it's like, I wanna live my life. I wanna eat good food. I have a business to build. I have voiceover to do. I'm busy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't need to sit and be like, oh, count my. Yeah, man.

[A]

You know, the biohacking thing is. Do you think we've gone too far? I mean, do you think Huberman and so many of these people. It's like, everything seems to have a hack.

[C]

Everything seems to have a hack. It does. No, here's the thing. I don't think it's gone too far in the sense that people should be able to have access to this information because I feel like we haven't. And now we have this beautiful thing called podcasting where we can have these long form conversations and you can hear from Huberman about how cold plunges will affect your life at certain temperatures. Isn't that cool? That's great. Or how psilocybin is a molecule that matches the serotonin. Or I don't know, it's something I didn't even know. I listened to him sometimes and I'm like, I don't know what that is, but that sounds cool. But when you're taking it all to heart and that becomes your identity, maybe that might be too far. Again, I want to be a voice of reason. So if it works for you to do the cold plunge, which, by the way, I love a cold plunge.

[A]

Well, it's because you don't have any testicles.

[C]

That's true. Well, you don't know that for sure.

[A]

Pretty sure. Okay, pretty sure.

[C]

Pretty sure.

[A]

Now look, I've been taking. I mean, that's a great example. I didn't buy a cold plunge.

[C]

Yeah. I'd go in my pool in the winter and it's fabulous.

[A]

Well, I take cold showers.

[C]

Yeah. That to me is braver because I feel like when on the head, it's too much. If I just dip into the neck, I'm like, at least it's not my head.

[A]

Well, I'll tell you what's tough is I like to shave in the shower. It's very tough to shave, you know, when you're shaking. As a rule you've got.

[C]

But aren't you supposed to take a regular shower and then you end with a cold shower?

[A]

No, I go cold the whole time.

[C]

The whole time.

[A]

The whole time. Yeah.

[C]

Well, that's a. Probably a short shower then.

[A]

8, 10 seconds.

[C]

Just enough to get the bits.

[A]

What else? Do you think grass fed meat is actually better than grain fed meat? Do you care?

[C]

Sure. Yeah. If you can.

[A]

Do you think European flour products are cleaner and better than US flour products?

[C]

I am almost 100% sure on my N1 experiment that European food is much cleaner than our food supply. Just from being a manufacturer and owning a brand and having to make multiple things and also spending a lot of time in Europe? Yes, it's completely different.

[A]

I'm super interested in this. Totally anecdotal, but I have some neighbors who are gluttons and they're constantly being very careful about what they eat. But they had like a cheat two weeks. They Go to Italy and they just eat like a house of fire. You must pasta three times a day. Of course, each of them lost three pounds.

[C]

Yeah. And then you come home and you're like, what sort of sorcery is in our food?

[A]

Can we get European flour? Does it take an act of congress? Am I going to have a temper tantrum over availability or cost or anything?

[C]

Send your cousin Joey over there to get some flour. Get some semolina.

[A]

What's the difference between semolina and flour?

[C]

I don't know. It's probably the grind. I don't eat gluten. Get off me.

[A]

I don't know. This is funny. She asks. I mean, it's not funny, but it's very personal.

[C]

It did get personal. Oh, she's asking it personal. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. These are all her questions. Why do you think so many people have gluten issues?

[C]

Gosh, I wish I knew the answer to that, being one who has them. So celiac is an autoimmune disease. So that means when my body. When I eat gluten, my immune system attacks the villi in my small intestines. So if we remember back to seventh grade biology, the villi are the little microscopic particles on the duodenum in the small intestines that absorb the nutrients. After you've digested your food, you flatten the villi. You start to have a breakdown in different systems because you're not absorbing any nutrients. So when I was diagnosed at age 28, I was extremely not anorexic. I did. Did deal with anorexia, but I was. What's it called?

[A]

Bulimic?

[C]

No, anemic.

[A]

Anemic.

[C]

Anemic. So I was extremely anemic. That's iron. Iron deficient. And I was extremely. I was diagnosed with osteopenia, which is the stage right before osteoporosis, at age 28.

[A]

Geez.

[C]

So for me, like, basically my body's like, you haven't digested a nutrient. So that's where I was starting to break down. Didn't even realize I was sick. I had the blessing of being tested because my mom was. Was 58 and diagnosed. Said I had to get tested. And that's how I learned she was really, really ill. And so people with celiac have a legitimate reason to not eat gluten. A lot of people find they feel better not eating gluten. So there's now non. I think it's like, I can't remember what it's called. Non gluten sensitivity or non celiac gluten. Sensitivity, something like that, where they legit feel better not having gluten. It can be inflammatory. I don't know if it's the roundup. I don't know if it's the. You know, we're just. We've evolved. It used to be called celiac sprue back at the turn of the 19th century. Sprue, which is kind of like an interesting sprue. Gives me like the vibes of like, oh, she's got, you know, the vapors or rickets or something.

[A]

Sprue.

[C]

Yeah, she's got the sprue. And I always thought that was like a fascinating thing. And it was very rarely diagnosed. It wasn't a thing. And now it's a thing. Like the peanut allergy. Why do the kids have the peanut? I don't know. Well, see, are we all covered in chemicals or is it. I don't know.

[A]

If you don't have a name for a thing. Is there a thing?

[C]

Right.

[A]

Like, what really happens when you name it? You know, I mean, it seems like 15 years ago I just wasn't hearing about gluten at all.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And now it's.

[C]

Yeah, now it's. Yeah. And a very common mistake is people think they're gonna lose weight automatically just by cutting out gluten. And my experience was the opposite. I was a size 0 and I couldn't gain any weight ever. I was like, this is great. I'm just always skinny. And then when I got healthy is my body started digesting food and being like, no, no, no. And started packing on the pounds. So for me, it was opposite. Some people do lose weight just because they. When they switch to a gluten free diet, maybe they're cleaning up some of the processed foods that they're eating. So it can happen. I'm not saying it's not gonna happen, but everyone's different. And doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna lose weight, but people think, well, I'm gonna go gluten free. That's gonna solve all my problems. And I'm like, it might not be that. Yeah, it might not be. It might be, but it might not be.

[A]

We're complicated, man.

[C]

I mean, we're a pain in the ass, aren't we?

[A]

We are. We're a tautology. We're complicated, we're predictable and yet unique. And we're desperate to paint with a broad brush. And of course, what's true for one might not be nearly as relevant for another. So we just do the best we can.

[C]

We do the best we can. And listen, we all want a set of rules and it's going to be different for everybody.

[A]

Where should the people go who just can't get enough of you?

[C]

I would love for the people to go to either. Eat Happy kitchen dot com. Check it out. All my books are on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever you buy all of our fine book selling retailers.

[A]

Well, I've got two of them apparently. I knew I had one.

[C]

And now you have Italian. Annavicino.substack.com is where I publish all new recipes that are not in a cookbook. And yeah, hey, you're gonna take my advice.

[A]

You're gonna start zooming with some of your customers. Get their permission, record them, put them out there.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

All right.

[C]

I think that's wonderful. I want the people to see.

[A]

You're welcome.

[C]

Well, thank you for having me.

[A]

You bet. If you're done, please subscribe. Leave some stars. Ideally five. Five lousy little star.

[C]

Lost. I'm going to pull over and ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're looking to get to the campground.

[A]

Well, you're going to take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road. No, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.

[C]

How are you getting a signal out here?

[A]

T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge. So the network out here is huge. We're getting the same great signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions.

[C]

Actually, can you point us in the direction of a T Mobile store?

[A]

America's best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out. Plus our five year price guarantee. And now T Mobile is available in US Cellular stores. Best mobile network based on analysis by

[C]

ukulele of speed test intelligence data at 2H 2025.

[A]

Bigger network. The combination of T Mobile's and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee on talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See t mobile.com for details.