Agreeing & Disagreeing with Jen Psaki

Summary

The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart: Detailed Summary of "Agreeing & Disagreeing with Jen Psaki"

Episode Information

• Title: Agreeing & Disagreeing with Jen Psaki
• Release Date: February 13, 2025
• Host: Jon Stewart
• Guest: Jen Psaki, former White House Press Secretary and host of MSNBC’s Inside and Blueprint with Jen Psaki

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart, host Jon Stewart sits down with former White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki to dissect the current state of the Democratic Party following the recent election. The conversation delves deep into Democratic messaging, policy effectiveness, media strategies, and the overarching challenges faced by the party in a rapidly changing political landscape.

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The State of the Democratic Party Post-Election

Jon Stewart opens the discussion by drawing a parallel between the recent Super Bowl and the Democratic Party's performance, expressing his dissatisfaction with the party's decisions and leadership:

"[00:56] Jon Stewart: ...the Democratic Party in that the personnel decisions that they're, everything that they are doing could not work out more humiliatingly and continues to do so."

Key Points:

• Stewart criticizes the Democratic Party’s strategic decisions, likening them to the New York Giants' poor personnel choices.
• Psaki reflects on the party’s messaging and its disconnect with the broader electorate:

"[08:48] Jen Psaki: ...it was talking about a lot of the things people actually care about."

---

Democratic Messaging and Policy Focus

Stewart challenges Psaki on the effectiveness of Democratic messaging, questioning whether the party’s focus on abstract concepts like "authoritarianism" and "oligarchy" resonates with everyday voters:

"[05:24] Jon Stewart: What the fuck is going on here?"

Psaki acknowledges the disconnect, emphasizing the need for the Democratic Party to address tangible issues that directly impact voters' lives:

"[12:46] Jon Stewart: ...the Senate, they kept the House... Did people vote against democracy..." "[08:48] Jen Psaki: ...the Democrats were talking to a small group of people, progressives... more academic than real issues."

Key Points:

• The necessity for Democrats to shift their messaging from abstract threats to concrete policy benefits.
• Psaki highlights the importance of communicating how government programs like USAID and Medicaid directly benefit citizens:

"[14:57] Jon Stewart: ...people have to go on food assistance... [15:17] Jen Psaki: ...This program that's being cut off is helping your kids have early childhood education."

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The Role of Media and Communication Strategies

Stewart expresses frustration with the current media landscape, asserting that Democratic media outlets lack coordination and a unified voice compared to their Republican counterparts:

"[52:08] Jon Stewart: ...they're creating policies now. I don't like a lot of them... nobody is building that machine."

Psaki counters by explaining MSNBC's independent approach, emphasizing that while the network is progressive-leaning, it strives to maintain editorial integrity without becoming a direct mouthpiece for the Democratic Party:

"[52:28] Jen Psaki: ...nobody is... it's not a mouthpiece of the Democratic Party."

Key Points:

• The disparity between Republican-aligned media machines and the more fragmented left-wing media ecosystem.
• The challenges of maintaining independent and substantive journalism in a polarized media environment.

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Comparisons Between Democratic and Republican Strategies

Stewart draws comparisons between Democratic and Republican strategies, particularly focusing on how each party interacts with think tanks, corporations, and media:

"[48:19] Jon Stewart: ...circle of life. It is the Lion King."

Psaki argues that Republicans have successfully created a cohesive ecosystem that supports their ideological goals, whereas Democrats struggle with internal coordination:

"[54:48] Jen Psaki: ...the Democrats need to have principles, and... nothing is really how they can win or whoever."

Key Points:

• The effectiveness of Republican strategies in aligning think tanks, politicians, and media to advance their agenda.
• The Democratic Party’s need for a more unified and organized approach to counter Republican dominance.

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The Influence of Corporate Power and Lobbying

The conversation shifts to the impact of corporate lobbying and how it shapes policy decisions. Stewart criticizes the Democratic Party for being influenced by corporate interests, leading to ineffective policies:

"[37:32] Jen Psaki: ...clean up what you're doing in there..." "[38:48] Jen Psaki: ...principles are very flexible."

Stewart emphasizes the long-term influence of corporate lobbying on the Democratic Party’s policies, arguing that it undermines genuine progressive initiatives:

"[48:19] Jon Stewart: ...circle of life. It is the Lion King. They understand that."

Key Points:

• The pervasive role of corporate lobbying in shaping Democratic policies.
• The need for the Democratic Party to prioritize genuine public interests over corporate agendas.

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Modernizing Government and Communication

Psaki and Stewart discuss the necessity of modernizing governmental communication strategies to better connect with the electorate. Psaki highlights the outdated nature of traditional press briefings and the need for a more dynamic approach:

"[60:12] Jon Stewart: That was what I was going to say."

Stewart underscores the importance of restructuring media strategies to reflect contemporary consumption habits, advocating for more engaging and organized communication:

"[62:00] Jon Stewart: ...trust your discomfort about some of this shit."

Key Points:

• The urgency for the Democratic Party to adopt modern communication methods.
• The potential benefits of a more strategic and unified media presence.

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Potential Avenues for Democratic Renewal

Towards the episode's conclusion, both Stewart and Psaki explore strategies for the Democratic Party to regain momentum. They emphasize the importance of bold policy initiatives and rebuilding public trust in government:

"[65:19] Jon Stewart: ...you have to give people the place that you want it to go."

Psaki suggests that Democrats must articulate clear, impactful policy solutions that address voters' immediate concerns, thereby restoring confidence in government efficacy:

"[63:43] Jon Stewart: ...this has to change... They haven't listened to that voice."

Key Points:

• The need for the Democratic Party to implement bold and straightforward policy remedies.
• Re-establishing public trust by effectively communicating tangible benefits of government programs.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Stewart expressing cautious optimism about the Democratic Party's future, while reiterating the critical need for organizational and communicative overhaul:

"[65:25] Jon Stewart: And you can't just say turn away from this disaster. You have to give people the place that you want it to go."

Psaki concurs, emphasizing the Democratic Party's responsibility to present coherent and effective solutions to contemporary challenges:

"[64:35] Jen Psaki: ...policy solutions don't feel always bold enough..."

Final Thoughts:

• The Democratic Party is at a crossroads, requiring strategic realignment in messaging, policy formulation, and media engagement.
• Both participants agree on the urgency for reforms to ensure the party remains responsive and relevant to the electorate’s needs.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jon Stewart [05:24]: "What the fuck is going on here?"
• Jen Psaki [08:48]: "It wasn't talking about a lot of the things people actually care about."
• Jon Stewart [12:46]: "...they kept the House... Did people vote against democracy..."
• Jen Psaki [14:57]: "This program that's being cut off is helping your kids have early childhood education."
• Jon Stewart [48:19]: "It is the circle of life. It is the Lion King."
• Jen Psaki [54:48]: "...the Democrats need to have principles..."

---

Final Remarks

This episode of The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart offers a critical examination of the Democratic Party's current challenges and potential pathways forward. Through candid dialogue with Jen Psaki, Stewart highlights the imperative for the party to evolve its strategies, prioritize effective communication, and implement policies that resonate with the electorate to rebuild trust and achieve political efficacy.

Transcript

[Jon Stewart]

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Jon Stewart]

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Jen Psaki]

That does the heavy lifting so you can do.

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[Jon Stewart]

For up to 50% off site wide blinds.com, rules and restrictions may apply. Foreign Ladies and gentlemen, once again, welcome to the Weekly show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. That was that was as welcoming and open as I could possibly muster. We are shooting. This is the Tuesday after the Super Bowl. I don't know when this is going to be airing in your earphones. God knows how much the world is going to change between the time that we are talking right now and recording it and the time that you are going to be absorbing and consuming it. But coming off the Super Bowl, I had this feeling. How do I draw the parallels between the game we saw, the things that we saw during the super bowl and the current moment? Isn't that clever to draw a line between the super bowl and in our current moment and what the Democrats are. And I'll say this, I am a Giants fan. New York Football Giants and the New York Football Giants have experienced a really interesting year in that we kind of sucked and shit the bed a bit. And when I say we, I don't mean we, I mean they. But I'm a fan, so I'm going to throw myself into the mix. We won three games. Decisions that we made were terrible. But there was one decision in particular which was the letting go of a running back by the name of Saquon Barkley. And Saquon Barkley is a unbelievable, not just talent athletically, but as a human being. Really the kind of undefinable aspects of his personality that make him an incredible teammate and an incredible leader. And the Giants were recorded over the summer saying, yeah, we're not going to pay that guy. Why would we pay that guy, the most talented running back and human ever maybe to have graced this locker room? No, he's out. And the owner of the Giants said, well, as long as he doesn't go to the Eagles. Well, guess what? He went to the Eagles. It was the personnel decision equivalent of the butt fumble, which is the famous New York Jets Mark Sanchez running into the ass of his own offensive lineman and losing a fumble. And the reason I bring it up is, boy, do the Giants feel like the Democratic Party in that the personnel decisions that they're, everything that they are doing could not work out more humiliatingly and continues to do so. And I don't know what kind of a draft pick the Democrats are going to get this year. I don't even know if there's a draft lottery in politics or any of those kinds of things. But boy, they better clean their shit up if they want to compete because the ass kicking that's been laid upon them in all aspects sometimes feels like a permanent state. But damn, hope springs eternals. So who knows, maybe the Democrats draft their Shador Sanders or there. I don't know. This is probably too sporty for everybody who even listens to this. But more importantly, we are going to get to discussions about the Democratic Party with someone who is well versed in all aspects of it, having served as a White House press secretary, having served in the Obama administration, having worked at the State Department. So we're just going to get to our guest today. We're going to break down what we believe are the positives, the negatives, what can be done for this New York football Democratic Party. Let's just get to it. And so getting right to it, delighted to be joined Today, host of MSNBC's Inside with Jen Psaki and the new MSNBC podcast the Blueprint with Jen Psaki, former White House press secretary under Joseph Robinette Biden and joins us now. Jen Psaki, great to be here.

[Jen Psaki]

I loved how you said Robinette there. First of all, I'll just note that.

[Jon Stewart]

You know, I like to give the presidents their full due with all the names that God has graced them with. Yes, Jen Psaki, Let me begin with a rather intemperate question.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, I'm ready.

[Jon Stewart]

What the fuck is going on here?

[Jen Psaki]

I was hoping you were going to tell me.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, I'm sorry. Let me, let me check my notes. You were pressing. You were the inside the guts of a White House. You saw how the sausage is made inside the White House.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

You saw the pace of newsmaking, you saw the pace of executive actions. Tell us, cadence wise, tempo wise, what are you seeing as the differences between this president's first. How long has he been president? Ten years. Now, Trump, how long has this been?

[Jen Psaki]

Ten and a half years to three weeks? Somewhere between three weeks to ten and a half years.

[Jon Stewart]

It's been three weeks. What are you seeing about just purely on pace? What are we dealing with?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, by pace, I mean, I think the amount of activity and movement is a lot.

[Gillian Spear]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

But it's that kind of movement. I think what is very different to state the obvious is the absolute gutting of agencies and civil servants and people who have worked for in government for decades. That's not something obviously we did or any Democratic Republican administration has done.

[Jon Stewart]

So the premise right now is democracy was on the ballot, right, for this election. And so if that's the case, democracy got its ass kicked by, ironically, by the very thing that it said was on the ballot, democracy. He won the election, he got the popular vote. They kept the Senate, they kept the House. So the idea right now that I'm hearing the most from the Democrats is he is eroding our democracy. And there are procedural ways by which he is doing that, not honoring separation of powers. My argument is also that democracy is eroded by the people not feeling that it's agile or responding to your needs. Is that what has put us in this situation? Did people vote on democracy being too analog in this digital world, not responding agilely enough? And now by going through this real executive, unitary kind of reordering of constitutional powers, is he doing the people's bidding? Is he doing this thing that will make democracy? How do you process that?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, one of the ways I process it is that I feel like when Democrats and including people who are on television in a variety of ways, were saying things like, thank you, authoritarianism is under threat and democracy's on the ballot. I think we were speaking in a manner that was so academic in ivory tower. It wasn't talking about a lot of the things people actually care about. So I don't know that people voted against democracy. I think they voted in some ways against protection of status quo and kind of the disconnected, academic, ivory tower elite language that that is too often used by Democrats, sometimes on cable television.

[Jon Stewart]

What?

[Jen Psaki]

I'm just being honest.

[Jon Stewart]

How dare you?

[Jen Psaki]

I'm being honest. No, that was one of my takeaways after the election was like cross authoritarianism and oligarchy out of every script. Nobody Talks this way. I don't think that's the only thing. But I do think looking back at the election, one of the outcomes, I hope people who are not thrilled by the Trump administration, which is a whole lot of people take away, is that Democrats and people running weren't talking to a large swath of the country. They were kind of talking to a small group of people, progressives. They were talking to people who were primarily focused on things that were, in my view, more academic than they were real issues.

[Jon Stewart]

What, what part in your mind was academic? I want to, I want to get, you know, is it. They were talking civics when they should have been talking something that was more directly impacting people's.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

People's lives.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes. So I think the threat of fascism is a huge issue. The threat of authoritarianism, huge issue. This guy is an aspiring dictator. His words, not mine. All of those are huge issues. I also think Liz Cheney is very heroic.

[Jon Stewart]

Wait, what? How did that. Wait, where did that come from?

[Jen Psaki]

Here we are.

[Jon Stewart]

What the.

[Jen Psaki]

Here we are. But I don't think closing the campaign with a message about fighting democracy with a former Republican member of Congress was the right strategy. I'm not saying that's why they lost. No, what I'm saying is there were millions of people who didn't turn out to vote, who, many of whom have in the past leaned toward Democratic issues, leaned toward Democratic candidates, and Trump somehow massively won on issues like the economy, even though his primary position is that he wants to lower tax cuts for corporations and the highest income Americans. That reality means maybe something isn't going well.

[Jon Stewart]

Obviously he would, he would not say that that's his primary position. But is it also, could it be said that the lived experience of Americans is that, look, Ronald Reagan had it in the 80s. What's the scariest thing that can happen? It's somebody from the government coming to your house and going, I'm from the government and I'm here to help. The idea being that Democrats are the party of the government and institutions. And institutions and status quo. And the status quo. So I don't view that in any way as progressive. So when we talk about, oh, it's the elites and progressives and things like that, you're right.

[Jen Psaki]

Maybe progressives is not. Let me just. You're right. That is not the right way. Progressives to describe it. It's elites is the right way to describe it.

[Jon Stewart]

Now we're talking. Now this is the, this is the conversation that press secretaries have. Is this how press secretary. When you're in the back room.

[Jen Psaki]

I just acknowledged I was wrong. And one of the things I said.

[Jon Stewart]

But is that how much is is messaging about arguments over the right word to choose versus the impact of policy? Have the Democrats lost themselves in message speak and lost sight of that broader goal?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I think the Democratic message speak still needs a lot of work, but I think the as just to go back to the original part of your question on the press secretary job.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

I think the people who do it best or try to do it the best are the ones who are policy focused on the policy and understanding it. So that you can answer the 18th question. You're not worried about exactly every word. You're not trying to like I'm going to say this thing and it's going to be a zinger and go viral. Like, you don't think like that. You think about understanding the policy so that you can push the system internally and provide more information publicly. That's not always how people think it works, but that's how it should work and how I think it worked or tried to make it work when I was in the job.

[Jon Stewart]

I wonder if this idea now right when I'm watching the cable news now and the Democratic messaging about what Elon is doing and Doge and all those other things, the point that you made about oligarchy and civics and separation of powers, maybe not being where not that they're not concerns, but that's not where the messaging should be. It feels like that message hasn't gotten through because that's I'm hearing an awful lot about separation of powers and very little about defending USAID or defending I'm not hearing a lot about here's the specific program that is so valuable and by not funding that, this is what we lose. There's been, to be fair, there's been some attempts at that, but the overwhelming majority has been. We are sleepwalking into a constitutional crisis again, taking the bait of the larger thing and not defending the efficiency or value of the programs.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. I would take it just one step farther. And I, I worked at State Department. I think USAID is a tremendous institution. I don't think it should be a front and center top messaging argument. Should people in Congress defend and use every lever of their power to prevent the Trump administration from gutting it? Yes, because they play a pivotal role around the world cracking down on corruption, defending a free press, a million things. But I guess when it comes to how the Democrats are communicating with the public, the things that the Trump administration are doing that they should be talking about more, in my view, are getting access to people's personnel information, their Social Security data, people, anybody who's applied for a government job. That's millions of people. Halting programs which a judge this week said they haven't actually put back in place. All of the funding halts, halting of the funding that they said they had. Those are the kind of things that if you are not really. If you think government is, you know, government's not popular, as you all know, Congress is not popular.

[Jon Stewart]

Why would. Why would that be?

[Jen Psaki]

Right? I don't know. Institutions not popular. So if you're trying to reach people who are like, ugh, government, Washington, then talk about how this program that's being cut off is helping your kids have early childhood education, it's helping you get Medicaid access, It's helping you farmers have subsidies.

[Jon Stewart]

But that seems. But, but that seems obvious, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes, it is.

[Jon Stewart]

So why are they not doing it?

[Jen Psaki]

I wish I knew the answer to that question.

[Jon Stewart]

That is the most painful sigh I have ever heard.

[Jen Psaki]

I've retired from the world of democratic messaging. In some ways, I think some people do it better than others. I think it is easy to get caught up in the. We're in a constitutional crisis, and we very well may be. I'm not trying to downplay that reality. When you have a president, which seems to be what's happening, and an administration who are defying a court order that is ignoring the one branch of government that is technically, I think, as lawyers would define it, a constitutional crisis.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. Well, then through an appeal, like, we've.

[Jen Psaki]

Got a little way there could be.

[Jon Stewart]

A little bit down the road.

[Jen Psaki]

But yes, a road to a constitutional crisis. How's that? That's what a press secretary does.

[Jon Stewart]

See, the road to constitutional crisis, we smooth it. Boy, if that's not a title of Maddow Special, I don't know what is.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, there may be. And then you're like, how did she incorporate unbelievable cigarettes?

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Giraffes. Zimbabwe.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

It's like some sort of brain genius that. My brain doesn't function that way. Yeah, I. I think some people do it better than others. I think there isn't. There is an ease in using some of this rhetoric that is applauded by people who are very loud on social media platforms when it's like, it is an oligarchy or it is. You know, yesterday I. On last night on my show, I talked about how what a constitutional crisis actually is because people keep throwing around constitutional crisis Constitutional crisis. I'm like, does everybody know what that means? Maybe they do. But I was like, this is what it is. And people were. People were messaging me on social media platforms. Always dangerous when you look that up. And they're like, yeah, please, we know what it is. Stop explaining it to us. It's like, well, okay. I mean, I don't.

[Jon Stewart]

Stop explaining things. News person.

[Jen Psaki]

Sorry. But I think there is a following. The soccer ball of everybody's calling it a tech oligarchy. We're all talking about fascism. It's not that they're not issues. It's just that that message was not connecting with a majority of the public. And so that's where I think there needs to be a readdressing.

[Jon Stewart]

All right, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, let's hear it.

[Jon Stewart]

What are the mechanics of this audit? How is this audit being conducted? It seems awfully quick. I've never heard of an audit that goes in in two days later. And, like, this is a criminal operation. Like. Like they've uncovered a cartel. Very easy to go in and pick a program. You know, they'll say they're spending $15 million a year on condoms for the Taliban. And you're like, I'm pretty sure the Taliban don't fuck that much. Like, I just can't.

[Jen Psaki]

That's one way to look at it, but probably true.

[Jon Stewart]

Right?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

So what they've done is they've taken the mantle of efficiency. Right. Which I think a lot of people feel like is long overdue in government, uncovering waste and fraud and abuse, but it seems like it's a Trojan horse for an ideological reordering. So I would love to know what the mechanics of this are, and I haven't seen much of it.

[Jen Psaki]

I would also like to know, how do they know they've destroyed the data that they pulled out when they had access to it? I'd also like to know what can Congress exactly do? I mean, if we're calling on them to do things and Democrats are in the minority, they have limited power, what should they push to do? I mean, can they. Should. Should there be a push to subpoena people from Doge? I think so. I mean, these are some of the things. Yes. I've lived in Washington and worked here on and off for a long time, but we've never been in this exact scenario before. So the piece that I'm most interested in is what now? Right. What, what are the levers that can be used? Obviously, the courts have been active. How many of these cases could go to the Supreme Court? They're only gonna pull? Probably pick, maybe a few, I don't know. But that's what legal experts say. Which ones? And what does that mean for executive power? These are the questions I also have that I think, to me, you know, one of the wake up. I don't know if it was a wake up call, but one of the things I've thought a lot about since the election was if we're out there every day and screaming, fascism, constitutional crisis, the world is ending. It's like, well, it's not answering people's questions, right. If they're ending the show and that's all I'm screaming at them, what did they learn or what did they gain from the experience of watching the show? And now, as you know, sometimes you have people on and you ask them these questions and they don't answer them, or they can't answer them or they don't have the information, and that's fine. But in this moment, as it's so fast moving, I also feel this interest, but also responsibility to try to kind of pull out. What are the levers that can be done? What are the checks on power that can still be utilized?

[Jon Stewart]

Do you think this is a, A punishment that, that the voters in the country? Because right now it's still broadly popular.

[Jen Psaki]

On all of us or is the.

[Jon Stewart]

Punishment on in some ways is it a punish what they think was the Democrats inability to effectively improve their everyday lives. And what I'm interested in is a triage for the Democrats of seeing that there's an understanding of how they ended up in this position. And I don't see that yet. And I don't know if your experience is different.

[Jen Psaki]

I don't see that yet either. That is not to go back to plug my own podcast. And I'm not really trying to do that, but I'm gonna do it for a second.

[Jon Stewart]

Hey. What the son of a bitch. All right.

[Jen Psaki]

This was actually one of the things in the weeks after the election where I felt like it wasn't that I was shocked out of my mind that Trump won. I mean I've been in politics, I've traveled around the country. But how did this happen and why did this happen and what can be learned from it, which I think is pivotal to understanding in order to figure out how to move forward. Which I think is the point part of what I'm hearing from what you're saying and I don't think there's one answer and I know that there are efforts in different places to explore that question. I think the DNC is doing one. I don't know what will come out of that. I'm keeping my expectations low. But that's sort of. To me it is a multitude of things. It is how. How the Democrats are communicating about issues. But it's also. Maybe it's a policy question too. And let's not all just call it a messaging issue because it may not just be a messaging issue. It's misinformation and disinformation. And that's not just. Everybody shorthands this as if Democrats only appeared on Joe Rogan's podcast. I'm like, I'm not sure. I don't know that he's inviting many. Maybe he is. But that's not the only answer. I think there's a lot of layers of it. It's also the kind of candidates people run that's not a hack on Kamala Harris. I mean in different races as well. And sometimes there have been purity tests in the Democratic Party that aren't particularly constructive. The purity test should be can you win and will you be a part of the caucus? Cuz the majority helps make things happen. I don't have an answer yet, but this is the thing that I wanna explore.

[Jon Stewart]

Do you think the Democratic Party is. Is principled?

[Jen Psaki]

I do Think that. And sometimes I don't wanna say too principled, because that is not a good thing to say, but I think principled, yes. The Democratic Party writ large are defenders of institutions that make the country run the rule of law. This is part of the problem. Right, right. They are believers in the separation of government.

[Jon Stewart]

Here's where we're getting into it. So I think other people would say that's a veneer and that what Donald Trump is doing is exposing. He's actually explicitly exposing the dark heart of how the world actually works. You know, sort of that idea of, hey, man, it's corrupt, and I know how to run a corrupt system of quid pro quo. I mean, look, this is the final boss battle in some ways of Citizens United, where they're basically saying money talks, bullshit walks, and that's how things are done. I mean, they're making it so that United States companies can't get in trouble for bribing foreign leaders. When he said that, he was draining the swamp. Right. I understood that as, Or I understand that phrase as we are going to crack down on corruption. I think what he's saying is that's not how the world works. So I am going to exploit corruption because we're the biggest bullies on the planet and it's time that we swing our thang and make that happen and say things like, hey, Canada, I mean.

[Jen Psaki]

Why you go have, you know, why Canada?

[Jon Stewart]

You know, but, but, but is that. Is he basically exposing how the world and how business actually works?

[Jen Psaki]

First of all, now I'm going to keep thinking about Donald Trump swinging his thing, which is a phrase you just.

[Jon Stewart]

Please don't do that.

[Jen Psaki]

You just used.

[Jon Stewart]

But I apologize for that.

[Jen Psaki]

It was in the riff.

[Jon Stewart]

It was a Teddy Roosevelt in the riff, big stick thing. And I fucked it all up.

[Jen Psaki]

I got it. All right, Okay. I think what it is exposing is how he thinks the world should work. Right. And how he thinks business, to your point, should work.

[Jon Stewart]

But does it work that way, Jen?

[Jen Psaki]

I don't think that actually government does.

[Jon Stewart]

Work that way, really.

[Jen Psaki]

I, I think there are corrupt people in both parties and we know that for. Look, Eric Adams, well, I guess he's. Who knows what's happening with him next. You know, Menendez, there are corrupt people, but I think that for the most part, the people who have been leading the Democratic Party, at least in recent years, have been trying to do good in more of a way of protecting rule of law, of trying to stand up for people in this country than what we have seen from what has become Trump's Republican Party, it's not the party of Mitt Romney or John McCain anymore from what that version of the.

[Jon Stewart]

Republican Party is, but that party was ineffective to, to a large. That's what I'm saying. The world doesn't work that way. Like when we say, you know, we're promoting democracy and goodness throughout the world, and yet we bomb the shit out of two countries for 20 years, create untold instability in a region because of our own interests. You know, what he's saying is, I don't want to give money to Ukraine I. Unless they're going to give us rare materials, rare earth materials, according to that value.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, but though, but that may be giving him too much credit.

[Jon Stewart]

No, he said. I think he said it literally.

[Jen Psaki]

I understand that. But also he loves Vladimir Putin and loves his dictatorial nature. And I think he also might be inclined to just say, you know what, you take whatever land you want and we'll end this whole thing, and then I can say, I ended this war. I don't know that he's actually gonna stick to what he said about Ukraine. And who knows? But like, he says all sorts of things. I hear what you're saying. I think the history of the country led by Democrats and Republicans is imperfect. There's many moments, even before Afghanistan, even before Iraq, et cetera.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

But what I'm getting at, I think, is that Trump, I mean, what he is rebuilding the government as is in the model of loyalty to him. Right.

[Jon Stewart]

No question there. No question there.

[Jen Psaki]

And that is not what I think leaders from other parties, I mean, Republicans too, have ever tried to do in modern history.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. It's old school. It's old school patronage.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes.

[Jon Stewart]

It's what civil service was. The swamp was created to remove that aspect of patronage. But I wonder sometimes how far have we really come from the model? And this is not about the administrative state. This is like, how far have we come from the model of searching the globe for cheaper materials and cheaper labor? And when we pretend that we're doing it for moral value and freedom, are we kidding ourselves?

[Jen Psaki]

Maybe at times. I mean, and there are times.

[Jon Stewart]

I mean, mostly.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, look, I think there are also realities of, you know, and I worked at the State Department for a couple of years, and you'd go to meetings and you would do a readout of the meeting, and oftentimes it was like, oh, we have to mention that we raised human rights. Right. And the human rights mention would have been five seconds of a two hour meeting. That is a truth. Because there are, I'm, I'm acknowledging, look.

[Jon Stewart]

At the difference between the defense budget and the State Department budget. What's the defense budget? $850 billion. What's the State Department?

[Jen Psaki]

Minimal. 50 it is. And. Right. And if you don't cut the Defense Department budget, you're not going to make the cuts anyway. That's a set aside. I do think, though, just to go back to. I do think most people who run for president, and I know there are exceptions in history and we can talk about them, do it because they want to make the country a better place. Right. They want to defend people and represent people in the country. I don't think they do it necessarily because they want to have cheaper labor. Nobody runs. That's not what they have in their mind.

[Jon Stewart]

But making it a better place means. Look, capitalism is a system that is a profit driven system and it rewards growth and profit and distribution of capital and it seeks its lowest mark. It's why when we talk about globalization destroying the inner manufacturing nature of our country, we also have that race to the bottom in the United States. Mexico is to America as South Carolina is to New York. You know, they're always competing for that, that lower thing. So I think you can't separate, when presidents say, I want to make it better, you can't separate it from the system that we've, that we operate that makes it better. Does, does that make sense?

[Jen Psaki]

I. Yes, I know what you're saying. However, I do think that the current situation we're dealing with is a very different destruct from internal.

[Jon Stewart]

Or is it just an ex, just a more explicit expression of that?

[Jen Psaki]

I think it's different.

[Jon Stewart]

Okay.

[Jen Psaki]

And I think it's far more destructive. If you look at. We've already talked, I know about the getting into the payment systems, which is concerning. We've already talked about stopping programs that are benefiting people across the country. Then there's also now this loyalty test for people applying to work in intelligence and law enforcement. These are things that are rebuilding the government infrastructure in the model of Donald Trump. Right. And that model, across all of those branches or across all of those elements is based on pure loyalty to him and embracing kind of, as you said, the corrupt approach to governing that he thinks is okay.

[Jon Stewart]

But don't you think we're talking about two separate things? Those are two separate things that may be. One has. One has set the environment up for the other. The weakness of our government to be responsive in those ways to the lives of the people has set up that idea of Globalization and retraining people instead of giving them the idea that Walmart can pay its people to the point where they have to go on food assistance, like the systems that we've set up, that we're defending that are status quo. We subsidize pharmaceutical companies, we subsidize oil companies, yet we pay the highest drug prices, our health, like all those things have added up to this. No, the systems that we've created. Were Democrats not urgent enough in the alarm bells going off about the corruption within our so called status quo system?

[Jen Psaki]

Yes, and I think that that part of that was not addressing and listening to the core people who should have been the base and who are the base, I think of the Democratic Party, which is a lot of working people who are impacted by exactly those policies you just outlined. So, yes, it is different things. And part of it is also there are things that on its surface are that Trump has said are. I mean, government is bloated, it is inefficient, and there are reasons why that should be addressed.

[Jon Stewart]

Boom.

[Jen Psaki]

The way to do that is not to have Elon Musk go, you know, target people who have attended DEI trainings. Right.

[Jon Stewart]

Totally understand. You're exactly right. But, you know, what did Kennedy say? If you make peaceful evolution, you know, impossible, you make revolution inevitable. All right, we're going to take a quick break. We shall be right back. Let the bodies hit the. Think about how screwed up we would be if we had survived a plane crash only to end up eating each other. The only way to truly be safe is to be the only one left.

[Jen Psaki]

You really are insane.

[Jon Stewart]

Yellow Jackets new season streaming February 14th.

[Jen Psaki]

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[Jon Stewart]

I wanted to do it as if it was brand new.

[Jen Psaki]

The winner of six Grammys, including Album of the Year, is back with special bonus performances and previously unaired interviews. Eric Clapton Unplugged over 30 years later, now streaming exclusively on Paramount. Go to paramountplus.com to try it. Free terms apply.

[Jon Stewart]

We are back. Okay, my point is, and I'll be perfectly frank, I am probably I lean towards the Bernie and the Elizabeth Warren and, you know, all those sites. Economically, I've been shocked by how undemocratic the Democratic Party can be.

[Jen Psaki]

Tell me, what do you mean by. I don't disagree with you necessarily, but what do you mean by that?

[Jon Stewart]

By Putting their foot on the scales to make sure that Hillary Clinton comes out of the thing or makes sure that, you know, that they're.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh.

[Jon Stewart]

That they're listening to that anger about the way that even the aca, quite frankly, struck me as a very conservative.

[Jen Psaki]

You mean because it didn't have a public option in it?

[Jon Stewart]

Correct. That it didn't address the very thing that was causing the foundational upset. If I were to break this down narratively, what I think the Democrats have forgotten is government may not be perfect, but it's the only thing large enough to offset multinational corporate exploitation and corruption. And if we don't act like that's urgent and that affects people's lives, then, yeah. So if the big policies that we make are billions more dollars to insurance companies that we think are fucking people over left and right. So isn't that part of why people lost faith?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. So, yes, I think we're saying. Well, I'm trying to say something similar, which is this boom, boom, which is Democrats just lost everything. They control nothing. They control. I mean, they don't control the House, they don't control the Senate, they don't control the White House, and they don't control the Supreme Court. So now is the time to break some shit. Right. And break some China.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. They do control the email lists that continue to ask for money. That's. They still have that.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, that's right. I don't even. It's like an overwhelming. And I, you know, I hear the public option. Look, I worked for Obama. He was. Would have been for the public option. He didn't think it could get through. Right. Was he wrong? Maybe he was wrong, but that's the point.

[Jon Stewart]

So it's the audacity of hope with the governance of the possible. And that's the point. Like, Donald Trump is nothing if not audacious. He manifests this way. Isn't there some part of you that believes, yeah, but what is he, what.

[Jen Psaki]

Does he produce, though? I mean, he doesn't. Even if he sees tariffs as a success, it's not going to be. But he even had to pull back from that. It's like, what are the outcomes of his success, of his grand proclamations?

[Jon Stewart]

But that not. Well, he accomplished them. He got the tax cuts that he wanted.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay.

[Jon Stewart]

I mean, he basically got the cabinet members that he wanted. I mean, he's, as you said, he's got.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, he controls the Republican Party, so that is like, get what he wanted.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

So he got some things he wanted. What I'm getting at is like, yes, the Affordable Care act imperfect, but there would be. Or it's that it would have been that or nothing. That's how I think people at the time felt. And you disagree?

[Jon Stewart]

I completely disagree. Because look, this is a 50 to 60 year project that the Republicans have been on. They wanted abortion gone.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes.

[Jon Stewart]

So what did they do? They stack the courts. They, they stack the court. They, they go. They have a goal and they go and they work for decades to achieve that goal. They stack the courts or they make regulations that make it impossible for small physicians offices to provide the kind of health care for women that would be necessary for those kinds of things. Or they work through other measures. They don't go, well, we'll never get that done. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to make sure that within Planned Parenthood there is also an Office of Adoption. And that's what we're going to do. And that. And then we're going to tout that as a victory. That's what I meant by principled. I disagree with it.

[Jen Psaki]

I would dispute this notion of the principles. And maybe this isn't what you're saying. So tell me if it's not. Please, let's just take Russia. Okay. Wait, what they. I know how the, how the.

[Jon Stewart]

Hey, what.

[Jen Psaki]

Hello, Putin, if you're listening.

[Jon Stewart]

All right.

[Jen Psaki]

They. When I was working for Barack Obama, a number of, most of the Republican Senate and caucus would say that he was, he didn't, he didn't arm the Ukrainians. Right. He didn't provide the type of assistance that should have been done in 2014 and 2015. That was their argument. He's too soft on Russia. That was the core. Mitt Romney said the biggest threat is Russia. Now they've turned around. They have not stuck by that principle. And they're confirming this person to lead the intelligence agency who befriended Putin, who's defended Putin, who's used the talking about, et cetera. Their principles are very flexible.

[Jon Stewart]

No, they're not. I disagree. I think that's very consistent with their.

[Jen Psaki]

Principles, which is what that who, however they can win or whoever. Whatever the Dear leader says.

[Jon Stewart]

No, they view Putin and Hungary as allies in their.

[Jen Psaki]

But they didn't used to.

[Jon Stewart]

Not that the Trump wing has always viewed them in that way.

[Jen Psaki]

I think the Trump wing has, has.

[Jon Stewart]

Viewed them as ideological allies, I should put it that way. Pro Christianity, defenders of what they consider to be Western values that are that, you know, the old battle was capitalism versus Communism. Right. Economic systems at play within the World and a world order and rules. I think the battle now is woke versus Unwoke. And in that battle, they view Hungary, Putin and all those countries as aligned. And they are natural allies to that group. The Republicans have been praising Putin for as far as I can see a couple of decades. There's some that view Russia as that. But at least in the media, there's always been a. He's really strong and he is, you know, look, they are allied with those countries ideologically.

[Jen Psaki]

I just. Okay, we can agree to disagree. This is democracy.

[Jon Stewart]

What the heck.

[Jen Psaki]

But not in the era of John McCain and Mitt Romney leading the party and what they thought the party stood for and what the party stood for. That's not the party anymore. But that, that was the party not that long ago is my point. And some of the same people who were in that party are now blindly following Trump down the Russia's great, Putin's great rabbit hole.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say they're saying they're, they're great and I understand what you're saying, but like this whole principle thing on their end is power. Like Mitch McConnell is the poster boy for not having like even just now when they confirmed Pete Hegseth and three Republicans voted against it and oh my God, now JD Vance has to come and break the tie. It's all theater. Yeah, but my point is it's a realignment of principle. Right. With woke versus unwoke being. You know, they've said like that's the most. The greatest danger of all is that I think the Democrats have an incredible opportunity to be actual economic populace, not the bullshit populism that the right is putting out there as they're gutting OSHA and they're making it so that you can't regulate anything that possibly could affect workers in a bad way. But they have not embraced that with the fervor and directness that I think they need to.

[Jen Psaki]

I agree 100% with you. I mean, I, I think this is the issue where there was not a clear digestible message. And, and maybe there were policy issues underneath there too. I don't want to undervalue that issue as well. I mean, to your point, it's like you gotta be bold if people feel, are gonna feel like you're addressing their issue. And I, you know, the example, you know, Harris talked about the opportunity agenda, which sounds like a poll tested thing and nobody knows what it means.

[Jon Stewart]

That's right.

[Jen Psaki]

There were very good things in there. Things in there. But that is the place where you know, West, Governor Westmore, Maryland. I was talking to him last week about this, and he said he used to run a poverty organization.

[Jon Stewart]

Robin Hood. He was. He was the head of Robin Hood Foundation.

[Jen Psaki]

You know Robin Hood. Yes. I don't know if everybody does, so I shorthanded it there.

[Jon Stewart]

Robinhood foundation is a foundation where Wall street people gather once a year to try to give money to offset them going to hell.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, there you go. But they also give money, and it doesn't.

[Jon Stewart]

There's no level.

[Jen Psaki]

They also give money.

[Jon Stewart]

That is the general.

[Jen Psaki]

Here's my. Here's my point of this story.

[Jon Stewart]

They do great work, by the way. They do. It's a fabulous organization.

[Jen Psaki]

They do great work, and they get money from all sorts of places. Point is, when he was running for governor, they were like, people, poll pollsters, people advising him were like, don't use the word poverty. Don't use the word poverty. This is my point. There is a knee jerk. We have to talk about things. In a poll tested. It sounds like. And I know I keep using the word academic, and maybe that's not the best phrasing, but a way that feels like we're defending a PhD dissertation about the economy instead of talking about healthcare should be affordable, man. The minimum wage is not as high as it should be. We should be fighting for that. Think, you know, we're on the sandwich generation. I'm in the sandwich generation. What does that sound like and feel like? And it is a moment where figuring out the messaging around that, and not just the messaging, but the messengers, because the messenger is the message. You know, who is delivering this, and are they talking about in a way that's accessible and real and authentic and passionate? And I don't think we know who that is yet, but that is part of it. And I think, yes, a big opportunity for the Democrats, but one they got to figure out.

[Jon Stewart]

But I still think that the message and the messenger are tertiary. I wouldn't even say they're secondary.

[Jen Psaki]

What's secondary, then?

[Jon Stewart]

If primary is the policy, primary is the diagnosis. Here's what makes it so difficult. Trump's diagnosis about this world is not, I think, insane or far off. I actually agree with a lot of what he says about the system is rigged.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. And that's how a lot of people feel.

[Jon Stewart]

I believe that, yes, to my core. So the first part is diagnosis. Second part is remedy. Third part is message. Remedy being principle based on diagnosis. I don't think they've diagnosed this well. I certainly don't think they've Created remedy. And sure as shit, then the tertiary part of it, which is messaging, won't align. But the problem that I see is they're still fudgeing tied up in messaging.

[Jen Psaki]

It's a. It's not just that they're tied up. I agree with you. Tertiary. Okay, I'm down with the tertiary order of events here. Order of events, tertiary. What I mean, well, I'm going to, I'm going to put the messenger in tertiary as well. And I think you did that too. Just because what I mean by that is if you have somebody who's like, I am for an opportunity agenda, it's like people who are like, I can't pay for my health care are going to recognize they're not feeling it in the same way. That's what I mean. But the far too often is it's a messaging problem, it's a communications problem. And then therefore you skip over the things that are harder questions to answer. Right. Which is what should be the policy basis of what you're running on, which I think is what you're saying is the primary and secondary. I agree. And I don't know exactly what the basis of that, what that is right now for the Democratic Party.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, I remember, you know, I can't. It was during Clinton's term and you were probably, by the way, Jen Psaki and I are. We went to the same college, the College of William Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. Jen, when did you graduate?

[Jen Psaki]

2,000.

[Jon Stewart]

So I just missed you.

[Jen Psaki]

Barely.

[Jon Stewart]

Just barely. By just a couple of decades.

[Jen Psaki]

But barely.

[Jon Stewart]

But, but so, so you graduated in 2000. So this is pre that. But in the Clinton era, I can't remember which year it was where he faced Newt Gingrich and the Contract with America. It was one of the midterms, and I can't remember if it was the first one or second one. They had a Contract with America. It was 94 maybe. Is that correct?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

But they had laid out and basically the Heritage, you know, the policy prescriptions were designed by the Heritage foundation and it was all laid out, but it was wildly effective. And they took control of the Senate and the House and they were able to execute certain things. But it was also a brilliant piece of policy.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Who's writing that? Who even knows what that is? Look, government is, when we talk about checks and balances, the founders were brilliant. Oh, Congress and the executive and the judiciary. What they didn't count on is corporate power. The Democrats have to effectively counter because that's where we can get value. We Subsidize pharmaceutical companies and pay the highest fucking pill prices in forever. $20 billion a year, apparently, to oil and gas. Like, what are we fucking doing?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, look. And there are some people you've mentioned, like Elizabeth Warren, who do talk about this kind of stuff. I'm not saying she's writing the plans.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

Who's writing the plans?

[Jon Stewart]

I'll tell you who's writing the plans. Who is it the corporations and the lobbyists?

[Jen Psaki]

I thought was like, who is it?

[Jon Stewart]

Jen, I'm going to tell you a story.

[Jen Psaki]

I understand what you're saying. I thought you were going to tell me some insightful plan you'd seen from somebody who's going to run for something. I was excited for a moment. Go ahead.

[Jon Stewart]

You know these people better than I do. I don't know these people.

[Jen Psaki]

I may. But you're like, I thought you were going to be like, I saw this great plan. I'm like, great.

[Jon Stewart]

Here's what's so interesting. On the Republican side, the synchronicity between the think tanks and the politicians and the billionaire donors, right? And the media arm, they work together. It is the circle of life. It is the Lion King. They understand that.

[Jen Psaki]

Like, who's Simba?

[Jon Stewart]

Simba is Rupert Murdoch, unfortunately.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, I was gonna say Mike Johnson.

[Jon Stewart]

No, he's, he's, he's a little sweet face boy. I mean, Donald Trump was giving a press conference. Rupert Murdoch was sitting next to him, and he's like, hey, the Wall Street Journal wrote some shit about me, but we'll take care of that. Rupert Murdoch said in a meeting. It was released in those documents after the Fox lawsuit. We need to do everything we can to help Donald Trump. Like, this is absolute corrupt. That it gets us back to the thing of, like, this is how the fucking world works. And yet somehow you're connected. You were the press secretary in Biden's thing, you worked for Obama, you worked at the State Department. You understand that. You're now at msnbc. None of these people are talking to each other and working together in any way.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, yeah, because we think the other side is really messed up. I mean, look. But it's also how the world is working, which I think is a huge problem that Democrats need to be clear and aware of. I mean, Hannity was like, meeting with the Republican caucus. There's more and more and more examples of what you're talking about.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes, and it seems very effective, but also effective in that they're creating policies now. I don't like a lot of them and I Think they're lying about a lot of them, but they've certainly created a machine. And nobody is building that machine, as far as I can tell. And even within the media. Rupert Murdoch and then Roger Ailes and. And now I don't know who's running, but they. They run it with a really clear mandate. You're at msnbc. Do they come to you every day and go, here's what we think is important to preserve and fight for whatever.

[Jen Psaki]

No, you can. Everybody gets a zillion press releases and pitch calls, but no, no, no, no.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm talking about the. The head of it.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, no, you determine. We determine each of us for our shows. Here's what I'm gonna cover today, and here's what I'm gonna talk about. And here's what I think is important, which. There's an independence ish of that. And there also is. You're not waiting to be told what to say about anything. You're gonna say what you think. So people can trust that. And that is a good thing.

[Jon Stewart]

See, I disagree with that. I think they. It's not that you're able to be independent, it's that you're then a prisoner purely to the minute.

[Jen Psaki]

By minutes, you mean in terms of.

[Jon Stewart]

Ratings, the ratings incentives and all those other things. If you don't have the ideological component. Right, then you don't have a governing authority of editorial authority. Right. The greatest trick Roger Ailes ever played was he delegitimized editorial authority while exercising absolute steel trapdoor editorial authority.

[Jen Psaki]

The greatest thing he did because it led them to be an arm piece, a mouthpiece of the right wing.

[Jon Stewart]

It led them to be exactly what he wanted it to be, which is an effective expression of his worldview.

[Jen Psaki]

And msnbc. I am unburdened by not having. I can share whatever I think. I have obviously worked in democratic politics for 20 years. I don't hide anything about that. It is a progressive leaning network, but nobody is. To the frustration at times of many elected Democrats. It is not a mouthpiece of the Democratic Party.

[Jon Stewart]

I don't want it to be a mouthpiece of the Democratic Party, but I do think it can stand for something more coherent and be more effective in its execution of that by doing so.

[Jen Psaki]

What do you think that should be?

[Jon Stewart]

That it should be a check on the excesses, that it should be muckraking in the best sense of the word. But effective muckraking needs organization and a leader. And it can't just be left to everybody's random show to I mean, I watch these shows all the time. I find them to be like, wildly redundant and not really have a macro view. Right. If you don't have a macro. I mean, this is, I don't know, I don't want to. I'm just saying, like, it makes it less effective or interesting.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, here's the thing with a macro view, though. A macro view where every show does the same thing. And maybe you're saying, you think. No, you're not saying that.

[Jon Stewart]

Okay, A macro view of. Is this the direction, Right. That help. Like, the nighttime shows should not be divorced from the daytime show. Fucking four hours of Joe Scarborough shouldn't be allowed in this country. And then like Rachel Maddow, like, it's schizophrenic at times. Like, yeah, I do think there should be some semblance of an idea that, look, they're kicking progressive ass right now. And if progressives don't organize their, their media, their think tanks and all that, it's going to continue to happen. It's chaos.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I will say, broadly speaking, what Democrats? I'm not gonna say Democrats. I'm gonna say people on the left do not do that. The right does very well is support within the system, each other. I'm serious. And what I mean by this is this, right, Theo Vaughn appears on Joe Rogan's show, right? He promotes what Joe Rogan's doing, but they all promote all of the things each other are doing and what the elected officials, I guess, are doing too. And the left is a little bit more kind of discombobulated in terms of supporting the different entities on the left. There is not a left ecosystem that matches the right ecosystem.

[Jon Stewart]

But Ailes didn't do that either. It was the principle, the ideological principles, not the party. He and Murdoch, the same way. They're promoting an ideological worldview. Right. That they believe is correct. And Theo Vaughn and Joe Rogan, I think are different animals than any of this. Like, I wouldn't say they're. I don't think they're part of any machine.

[Jen Psaki]

Don't you think they're the ant? But, but they are. They are still in the right wing ecosystem. Wouldn't you agree?

[Jon Stewart]

No, I would think they're in. No, no, I would. I would consider them in a more probably libertarian comedic complex. You know, more, more along the lines of. And if you watch or listen to their shows, a, A lot of times it's just pure, like goofing off, has.

[Jen Psaki]

Nothing to do with politics. And oftentimes but they are almost Entirely. But they are supportive of the Trump enterprise, is what I mean. So maybe I'm loosely putting them in that category.

[Jon Stewart]

I think they are supportive, but not. They are not relentless in the Trump enterprise. Like, they are not Charlie Kirk, they are not Ben Shapiro. Like, they are very different animals. They are not invested in now the shit that you get picked up and, like, go to the headlines of media. Yeah, but on balance, that's not what their shows are about. On balance, Ales, like, never took his foot off the gas. Never. It was like, there was not a wasted moment and did it still with an eye towards producing very watchable television. Right. That's missing. I think it's missing from the media is a sense of like, how many times have you heard, Jen, our job is to call balls and strikes. And you're like, no, you're not a fucking, you're Upton Sinclair. So get on it.

[Jen Psaki]

I don't say that. I don't think most of the people on Ms. I know what you're saying. I mean, look, this moment of the last three weeks has exposed exactly that issue, this notion that. And I think a lot of the media is guilty of this is the we have to be equal. And down the middle. And look at how reasonable what Mike Johnson just said. You're like, is it reasonable because it's less crazy than what Tom Cotton says? That doesn't make it reasonable. Right. It's like this, like, rank order of things, you know, because we have to be fair and give everybody equal consideration.

[Jon Stewart]

What was the most frustrating thing about the media when you were on the other side, when you. When you were the press secretary? What. What did you find most objectionable about the media at that time?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I know you're a big fan of the briefing room and how it operates.

[Jon Stewart]

I want that removed.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm just kidding.

[Jon Stewart]

Removed.

[Jen Psaki]

Look, I think the thing that was frustrating about the media, two things. Couple things. This is a therapy session, but I'll be short. One is there is a performative nature, something I know you've talked about and everybody knows about the briefing room. And that was created by television largely. And what it means is that if you're in the briefing room and you watch a whole briefing, which most people don't, even if they're consuming the briefing, it is extremely repetitive. So six people asking the same questions because they need the clip for their package. Right. Are you moving the story forward? Is that hard when you're the press secretary? No, it's hard only because by question seven, you're annoyed and Then you can't be annoyed. You have to be. That is a challenge. The twisting yourself into pretzels in order to seem equal and balanced is driving me up the wall currently. The third thing is, I think the responsibility of a press secretary, whether in White House or anywhere, is to be extremely informed on the policy and the substance. That's what it is. Actually. Most of the job is not edgy, and it's not arguing with Peter Doocy. It is like spending. You know, I mean, that was fun, but, like, it's spending hours in your office explaining the nuclear deal, explaining whatever may be happening in negotiations with Congress. That is not the sexiest part of the job. Right. But that's the majority of the job. It's true for reporters, too. The best reporters who cover the White House are experts and super substantive and informed about the policies they're asking about. Which is why, when I was the press secretary, you know, not to pick on Peter Ducey. We had a good relationship, sure, but I was never concerned about answering his questions. It was when I would see, like, David Sanger, who's a New York Times reporter who's covered nuclear issues for 30 years in the room, and I was like, shit, he's gonna have a hard question. But what I have seen happen, and I blame this on the first Trump administration, is this sort of addiction to trending right. From some of these reporters, not all of them. There's a lot of good ones in there where they literally would complain when I was the press secretary, on background meaning not with their name, that it was just too boring because it was returning to too many policy briefings. And it's like, welcome, everybody. That's what we do here, right? If you want to cover something sexy, go cover Hollywood. I don't know. Like, we're nerdy. So I don't know. I just gave you a very long answer. But a couple of things that I think make the system to state the obvious, it's outdated.

[Jon Stewart]

That was what I was going to say.

[Jen Psaki]

It's not how people consume information. It is also, when I was leaving, I was Obama's communications director, and when I was leaving, well, we thought Hillary Clinton was gonna win, so there's that. Obviously, that didn't happen. I would have told them. And I. And I don't wanna speak for Josh, but I think he would've said the same thing. Change and modernize what you're doing in there. Right? I mean, do it twice a week and do one day. That's just regional press. Bring people in on A screen. To Sean Spicer's credit, I mean, I know he wasn't like the success measure of this job, but, like, he at times brought in a screen of people who didn't live in Washington. There's a million things you can do and modernize it. And the reason that we didn't do that when I started is because we were coming in at a point where there was such a trampling on the freedom of press. We felt like we needed to return to a very traditional approach. Maybe that was the right approach, maybe it wasn't. But, meaning, you call on AP first, you have a briefing every day, you allow them to ask their questions. But yes, it's in due. It's overdue for modernization for sure.

[Jon Stewart]

It's difficult, I think, when. When the modes of media are changing as rapidly as they are to adjust, you know, it really does. You know, these kinds of changes create spasms. When radio first happened, when TV first happened. You know, when TV first happened, Kennedy went on the debate and Nixon was like, I don't need makeup. I look great. You know, and that completely fucked him up.

[Jen Psaki]

You didn't look great, Nixon.

[Jon Stewart]

But I do think at some level, like, we all operate kind of tower records. Like, I feel like, you know, I host a television program where I sit in a studio and we do it and we work all day and the thing. And it does feel a little bit like, hey, kids, come in and see the newest CDs from Columbia Records.

[Jen Psaki]

Like, well, so, okay, I know this is your podcast and not mine, but.

[Jon Stewart]

No, no, no, no, no, please.

[Jen Psaki]

I was going to ask you, because I have found this in my brief foray into podcasting, is that the conversations are just a lot more flowing in a different way than when you're on. There's something about being on a tele, and you've done this a lot longer than me, but being on a television set where it's like, you have to deliver your monologue or your script in a certain way.

[Jon Stewart]

Correct.

[Jen Psaki]

And you can't just sit there and be like, hey, I'm Jen, what's up? Because that would seem weird on tv, but on a podcast, but it won't. For a different conversation, you can.

[Jon Stewart]

This will evolve. And the. And the practitioners of it that do more, you know, the one thing I would say is like, trust your discomfort. Like, trust your discomfort about some of this shit. Like when you said, like, this has to change, like, that's what I'm talking about. And I mean that writ large within the status quo of. Of how we govern and the way that we create policy that battles corporate interest or battles a media industrial complex or any of those other fucking things. Like the discomfort that you feel in those systems is your gut telling you, like this isn't the way to execute my intention at its highest level. Yeah. And I mean that for everything. And I feel like Democrats haven't listened to that voice and Trump is that voice like without any other filter around it. Like I said, I think his diagnosis is oftentimes correct. I really disagree with his remedies and the way that they're executing them.

[Jen Psaki]

I agree with that. I mean it is, people feel that the system is broken and working against them.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

That is something that I think and I'm not that many Democrats might understand and agree with, but don't articulate that and don't connect with people about how broken they feel the system is. And I also think the policy solutions are don't feel always bold enough and.

[Jon Stewart]

Sometimes they are and are overcomplicated by the corporate lobbyists and interests that get around. Like poor people aren't the ones who made the tax code 8 million pages.

[Jen Psaki]

That's true. I also think they're over complicated by, and this is the tertiary example just to come back. But the packaging of them and the.

[Jon Stewart]

Bureaucracy of them and the, you know, progressives and Democrats shoot themselves in the foot with regulations that actually make solving the problems they care most about nearly impossible.

[Jen Psaki]

That is true. And now some regulations are good. Like we like clean air and water.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

But, yeah, but again there are, there are, there is a clear a message from the election is clearly people feel disappointed and pissed off with government.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

And it's like, what are you going to do about it now? Now I am scared for what Trump? Because at three weeks in, I'm already feeling like I need to lay down. But I, you know, I'm not going to lay down. But I'm concerned. I'm not, I try very hard not to be like project Fear. I'm not fearful as a person. I'm concerned about what he could do in this period of time. But there is a huge opportunity here.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

On the political front for Democrats.

[Jon Stewart]

Now you're talking.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. Because he's not going to implement it the right way. He doesn't know how to address the things he's saying or the problems.

[Jon Stewart]

And you can't just say turn away from this disaster. You have to give people the place that you want it to go. You have to paint that picture of, of, of what it should be. I'm delighted. And, and Jen Psakia, I'm glad that we had a chance to, to sit down and talk about it in a, a lovely conversation. It's a pleasure to get a chance to do that with you. And I do. I thank you so much for, for joining us.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you.

[Jon Stewart]

All right, host of MSNBC's Inside with Jen Psaki and the new MSNBC podcast the Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Former White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks for having me.

[Jon Stewart]

Jen Psaki, do you ever have the instinct to say Pasaki?

[Gillian Spear]

Yes. Yes.

[Jon Stewart]

That's two people who probably broadly agree, I would think, on principal issues. But I think there's very much a tension in that conversation, though.

[Gillian Spear]

Yeah, I think that's the conversation all Democrats are having amongst themselves right now, and there's that tension and hopefully they'll move towards something eventually.

[Jon Stewart]

Right? Yeah.

[Gillian Spear]

I mean, you talked about how the Democrats need to have principles, and at the end of the conversation, she mentioned how maybe their policy positions haven't been bold enough. You know, I don't know if the Democrats should have drawn a line for the public option when they were fighting for the aca back in 2010, but I do know that many of them seem to still be resting on the laurels of that achievement. And even though the ACA doesn't seem to be working for a lot of people and they can't even seem to unify behind the ideal of universal healthcare as a goal, even if they don't think they can achieve it, well, even.

[Jon Stewart]

When they say, like, well, it might not be possible, and you're like, well, do you believe that it's right? If you believe that it's right, then then we have to move. But maybe there's something even beyond that. Not. Let me ask you guys this, because I think the job even before that, is to regain the confidence of people that government can effectively manage any of this.

[Gillian Spear]

This is a bit tangential to what you're saying, but it really stood out to me and it kind of follows this path, which is just that, please, the Democrats need to rebuild confidence. But I think you said something along the lines of one administration has set things up for the other. And I was thinking about this constitutional crisis. We're all, you know, discussing whether it's occurring or not. And the foundation of it is that, at least from what I'm reading, is that the Trump administration has not unfrozen funds that a court has told them they must unfreeze. And I can't help but Thinking during my time as a national security reporter, how many times I had sat in a courtroom and listened to a situation where the Obama administration, let's say, was not following a court order. One example I can think of is, like, with torture pictures, people think of, like, images, and when they're ordered to release them, they'll be like, oh, well. Well, we'll put them in groupings and we'll put a representative picture, because for national security, we can't. And then it was just this understanding that this is the process of courts, and that's kind of where we are right now, as everyone decides where we're at. It's like, well, this is the process of Right.

[Jon Stewart]

That's not a constitutional crisis. That's just how it.

[Gillian Spear]

And of course, I don't want to downplay this moment. I don't want to downplay this moment, and it's a very different situation.

[Jon Stewart]

Understood.

[Gillian Spear]

But one administration does set up things for the next.

[Jon Stewart]

Even when there was extrajudicial killings, there was drone tight things. Like, there's a process in the court's order in injunction, but that is the truth. Like rubber meets the road. It all depends on what the priority is. And. And certainly he's operating more as a wrecking ball than anybody else. But it's not in unhur. It's just like everything else with him. It's all, as they would say in Spinal Tap, turned up to 11. Everything is just turned up to 11. But what I thought was most interesting is we can't identify the infrastructure that would make these adjustments.

[Gillian Spear]

Nobody can do it.

[Jon Stewart]

Nobody can do it.

[Gillian Spear]

Yeah, it's the Spider man meme of just people pointing to each other. You go through a list, and nobody stands out.

[Jon Stewart]

Nobody stands out. Jillian, I can always count on you to tell me what the young people are thinking. Meanwhile, I couldn't even get my fucking email to open. And by the way, terrible apologies for a twisted sports analogy in the top. I know that many people.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Gillian Spear]

Went right over my head. I don't do sportsball.

[Jon Stewart]

I apologize.

[Gillian Spear]

I even skipped the super bowl and went to a Broadway show.

[Jon Stewart]

I thought Broadway was dark. How dare they?

[Gillian Spear]

I just feel bad that John was watching the super bowl and thinking, you know, this reminds me a lot of what's happening. He will never be free.

[Jon Stewart]

It reminded me of that because Saquon Barkley and the Philadelphia Eagles won the super bowl. And they were. And I was watching him. And to tie it all around to Broadway, I just began to sing Used to Be Mine. Terrible voice.

[Gillian Spear]

Waitress.

[Jon Stewart]

That's it. What else we got?

[Gillian Spear]

We got some listener questions.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, let's do that.

[Gillian Spear]

John, do you think there is anything good that could come out of Trump's second term?

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, I'm sure. I mean, I, you know, again, like, nothing is ever completely black and white. Like I say, some of the diagnoses that he has about the rig system I completely agree with. I'm sure there will be something that occurs, or at least hopefully. I mean, I hope so. Christ, I live here. I mean, I. It. There better be something good that comes out of this.

[Gillian Spear]

I thought you were going to say the pendulum swing.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, I don't. I think we're so beyond pendulums at this point. I don't know. I think it's different forms of matter. I think it goes now from gas to solid to plasma. I have no fucking idea. We are in a joint custody where the two parents have just so divorced from each other and it's such completely different. But, oh, I mean, I really hope there's. Yeah, I live here. I really hope something good happens.

[Gillian Spear]

He could at least be the one to get rid of daylight Savings, I think. Give me, give me five minutes on the phone with him. I feel like I can make this happen. I like the idea that Gillian just wants five minutes on the phone with Trump and all she wants to discuss is daylight savings time, by the way.

[Jon Stewart]

That is how things are done now. Like, you get five minutes with him. Like, Eric Adams spends five minutes with him, and he's like, yeah, tell the Justice Department it's fine. He's a good guy. It'll be fine.

[Gillian Spear]

He meant well.

[Jon Stewart]

They meant well. Why not? All right, Brittany, as always, how do people get in touch with us?

[Gillian Spear]

Twitter. We are weeklyShow Pod, Instagram threads, TikTok, BlueSky. We are weekly show podcast. And you can, like, subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel, the weekly show with Jon Stewart.

[Jon Stewart]

All right, very good. Very pleased for the program today as always. Our lead producer, Lauren Walker, Producer Brittany Momedovic, video editor and engineer Rob Vitola, audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer, Gillian Spear. And as always, executive producers Chris McShane, Katie Gray. Thank you guys so much. Are we. Are we doing a show next week or. No, we don't have a show.

[Gillian Spear]

We're off next week.

[Jon Stewart]

There is no show next week, so you will be spared from my ramblings, but I'm excited to rejoin. Where's that? End of February, I guess.

[Gillian Spear]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Beautiful. All right, guys, good stuff. The Weekly show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions.

[Gillian Spear]

Black Voices on Paramount plus is about.

[Jon Stewart]

Sharing stories, Ready to Ride from Climbing.

[Gillian Spear]

To Success and Bob Marley One Love.

[Jon Stewart]

Love Music can lead the way to.

[Gillian Spear]

Fighting for yourself and fighting for others. In Lawman Bass Reeves I Ain't about.

[Jen Psaki]

To Quit this and Stories of love and Community in the Shy I love you.

[Gillian Spear]

It's a place for our community.

[Jon Stewart]

Explore the Black Voices collection on Paramount plus Stream now at Pluto tv we're celebrating Black History Month with our curated collection of black films, series, music channels and more brilliant Black entertainment, intentionally curated and all free this month and always on Pluto tv.

[Jen Psaki]

Stream now.

[Jon Stewart]

Pay Never.

[Jen Psaki]

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