Come Back, America! with Rory Stewart

Summary

The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart Episode: "Come Back, America! with Rory Stewart" Release Date: April 24, 2025

In this thought-provoking episode of The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart, host Jon Stewart engages in a deep and comprehensive discussion with renowned author, former Member of Parliament, and former minister Rory Stewart. The conversation delves into the tumultuous state of American politics under President Donald Trump, the shifting dynamics of international relations, and the rise of populist and far-right movements both in the United States and Europe.

---

1. The Tumultuous First 100 Days of Trump's Presidency

Jon Stewart opens the discussion by expressing his frustration with the current state of American politics. He highlights the resignation of Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois after a lengthy 40-year tenure, questioning the societal norms that have led to such a development. Stewart critiques the ongoing trade war with China, emphasizing its detrimental impact on the U.S. economy and global stability.

“We are so generally fucked.” — Jon Stewart [06:19]

Stewart laments the chaotic approach of the Trump administration, particularly focusing on the self-inflicted tariffs that are destabilizing the global economy without yielding substantial benefits.

---

2. European Perspectives on American Policies

Introducing Rory Stewart, Jon Stewart seeks to understand Europe's increasingly hostile stance towards America. Stewart discusses the historical context of U.S. involvement in global institutions post-World War II and how recent policies have strained these relationships.

“Throughout the history of the United States, the executive has always had a great deal of power, but it's always supercharged that power through the process of emergency declarations.” — Rory Stewart [09:08]

Rory Stewart analyzes how the Trump administration leverages emergency powers to override other branches of government, leading to a concentration of authority that undermines democratic checks and balances.

---

3. The Impact of Tariffs and Trade Wars

The conversation delves into the complexities of Trump's trade policies, particularly concerning China. Stewart critiques the administration's inconsistent messaging regarding tariffs, highlighting their adverse effects on American businesses and global trade relations.

“I was riveted by the first one. I don't, I don't remember any of the rest of it.” — Jon Stewart [47:24]

Stewart questions the sustainability of tariffs as a strategy, pointing out the contradictory statements from Trump about the intentions behind these economic measures.

---

4. Decline of Liberal Democracy and Rise of Authoritarianism

Stewart and Rory Stewart explore the broader implications of America's internal turmoil on the global stage. They discuss the erosion of liberal democratic values and the ascent of authoritarian leaders who challenge the established international order.

“We’ve entered this funny shadow world. The rules-based international order has become the strong will do what they will and the weak must suffer what they must.” — Quentin [23:17]

The pair examines how the weakening of democratic institutions has created a vacuum that populist leaders are eager to fill, leading to increased instability and conflict.

---

5. Rise of Populism and Far-Right Movements in Europe

The episode critically assesses the surge of far-right parties across Europe, such as Germany's Alternative for Germany (AfD), correlating it with similar trends in American politics. Stewart discusses the factors fueling this rise, including economic discontent and nationalistic sentiments.

“These are people who think like many people did in the 1920s and 30s that liberal democracy was kind of weak and indecisive and incompetent and it failed people.” — Quentin [50:30]

He highlights the dangerous parallels between historical fascist movements and current populist leaders, emphasizing the need for robust democratic responses.

---

6. Immigration Policies and Their Political Consequences

Immigration emerges as a central theme, with Stewart and Rory Stewart debating the impact of America's broken immigration system on political stability. They argue that uncontrolled immigration is a significant driver behind the rise of far-right sentiments in Europe.

“Uncontrolled immigration is the number one reason for the rise of the far right in Europe.” — Quentin [56:27]

Rory Stewart advocates for humane yet controlled immigration policies, stressing the importance of balancing compassion with national security and economic stability.

---

7. The Role of Media and Modern Political Discourse

The discussion shifts to the influence of media and the changing landscape of political communication. Stewart criticizes the spectacle-driven nature of modern politics, likening it to reality TV and highlighting its role in promoting superficial engagement over substantive policy debates.

“It's the politics of reality TV.” — Quentin [62:07]

They explore how social media and entertainment-centric politics have undermined informed discourse, contributing to the electorate's susceptibility to demagoguery.

---

8. Solutions and Opportunities for Democratic Renewal

In addressing the challenges discussed, Stewart and Rory Stewart propose actionable solutions to restore and strengthen democratic institutions. They emphasize the need for patience, investment in grassroots initiatives, and reforms that promote transparency and accountability.

“We need committed, idealistic, tenacious, resilient young students to go into journalism.” — Rory Stewart [73:51]

Stewart highlights successful models of international cooperation and development, such as the transformation of Eastern European countries post-World War II, as examples of what coordinated, patient policy efforts can achieve.

---

9. The Importance of Economic Policies and Redistribution

The conversation touches on the role of economic policies in fostering stability and prosperity. Stewart critiques regressive environmental policies that disproportionately affect the poor, advocating for more equitable approaches to taxation and redistribution.

“Most of our environmental policies have been regressive, which means that they've had the biggest impact on the poor.” — Quentin [58:39]

He underscores the necessity of comprehensive tax reforms that address inequality while promoting sustainable development.

---

10. Call to Action: "Come Back, America!"

As the episode concludes, Stewart and Rory Stewart issue a heartfelt plea for America to reclaim its role as a stabilizing force in the world. They call for a resurgence of values that prioritize democracy, human rights, and international cooperation.

“Come back, America.” — Quentin [65:30]

This rallying cry encapsulates the episode's overarching theme: the urgent need for renewed leadership and a recommitment to democratic ideals to navigate the present crises and shape a more stable and prosperous future.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jon Stewart: “We are so generally fucked.” [06:19]
• Rory Stewart: “Throughout the history of the United States, the executive has always had a great deal of power, but it's always supercharged that power through the process of emergency declarations.” [09:08]
• Quentin: “We’ve entered this funny shadow world. The rules-based international order has become the strong will do what they will and the weak must suffer.” [23:17]
• Quentin: “These are people who think like many people did in the 1920s and 30s that liberal democracy was kind of weak and indecisive and incompetent and it failed people.” [50:30]
• Quentin: “Uncontrolled immigration is the number one reason for the rise of the far right in Europe.” [56:27]
• Quentin: “It's the politics of reality TV.” [62:07]
• Rory Stewart: “We need committed, idealistic, tenacious, resilient young students to go into journalism.” [73:51]
• Quentin: “Come back, America.” [65:30]

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart serves as a comprehensive examination of the current challenges facing America and the broader international community. Through incisive dialogue with Rory Stewart, Stewart offers a critical analysis of political dysfunction, economic instability, and the erosion of democratic values. The discussions emphasize the necessity for thoughtful policy reforms, international cooperation, and a reinvigorated commitment to democratic principles to address the multifaceted crises of the modern world.

Transcript

[Quentin]

Location the lab. Quentin only has 24 hours to sell his car. Is that even possible? He goes to Carvana.com. what is this, a movie trailer? He ignores the doubters, enters his license plate. Wow, that's a great offer. The car is sold. But will Carvana pick it up in time for.

[Kaley Cuoco]

They'll literally pick it up tomorrow morning. Done with the dramatics.

[Quentin]

Car selling in record time. Save your time. Go to Carvana.com and sell your car today.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Pickup fees may apply.

[Jon Stewart]

Hey there travelers. Kaley Cuoco here. Sorry to interrupt your music. Great artist BT Dubs, but wouldn't you rather be there to hear it live? With Priceline you can get out of your dreams and into your dream concert. They've got millions of travel deals to get you to that festival gig, rave, sound bath or sonic experience you've been dreaming of. Download the Priceline app today and you can save up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights. So don't just dream about that trip. Book it with Priceline.

[Quentin]

Go to your happy price.

[Rory Stewart]

Priceline Foreign. Hello everybody, welcome once again. Weekly show podcast with Jon Stewart. My name is Jon Stewart. I'm actually the person in the intro. It just, I don't know, it just worked out that way. We are talking to you Wednesday, April 23rd. We always try and date it because of the speed in which current events has been moving. It is exhausting. We are approaching the first hundred days of Donald Trump's re presidency and the first congressional casualty, Mr. Dick Durbin. Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. Illinois. Illinois. I like to add the S. Although what would he Plural. Illinois. Illinoises. I don't know. We'll figure it out. He said he is not going to seek reelection. And here's the shocking part. He's only been in Congress I think 40 some years and he's only 80. To see a senator self deport at the ripe young age of 80. My God, my God, what have we become as a society to drive these kinds of adolescent junior senators from office? It's like watching someone declare for the draft as a freshman. No sir, you're not ready. You're not ready to go. You must, you must mature. We're so generally fucked. And that the trade war is apparently now this is going to be such an interesting Houdini esque escape from these utterly disastrous self inflicted tariffs. You saw Trump today in a press conference. Well, nah, you know China, they, they've got to make a deal, they've got to do it. And so because they have to make the deal. And because everybody's kissing my ass even though no deals are done, I'm probably just gonna, you know, remove the tariffs at some point. Having nothing to do with the fact that yesterday I sat down with Target and Walmart and all the big box stores and they were like, you're killing us. We are the only thing keeping the economy going for cheap goods and we will have nothing on our shelves in like a week. You're going to see a run on toilet paper that would make the COVID era panic seem like a stroll in the park, for God's sakes. And somehow they'll pull off the, the feet of saying this was the plan the whole time. And what a brilliant strategy it was to tank the global economy for as long as he did while still getting nothing out of it. Meanwhile overseas, who the hell knows how will, will the EU move towards China? Will Russia just be able to consume Ukraine in the way that they want to? We just have no idea. This is a failure on all levels. The first hundred days have been nothing but sturm and drang and noise signifying nothing. And it doesn't have to be this way. So many of their policy goals could be achievable in non chaotic terms and yet they seem incapable of playing that out. Fucking madness. But we're going to get the view from Europe today with our guest, which I'm very excited about. Quite a, quite a renaissance gentleman that we have joining us on the program today. Delighted to have him. Foreign ladies and gentlemen, delighted. Today, the Stewart brothers, that's it. Reunited Rory Stewart, nay Leibowitz brothers from a different mother, co host of the Rest is politics, but truly an enlightenment gentleman, author, former mp, former minister. We're just, we're excited to have you discussing things with us today. Rory. You are obviously, you know, your career as an author and as a minister. You're so ensconced in politics as well as broadcasting and all these other things. We just thought you'd be a great person to give us a broad perspective on the view from overseas towards America. As you know, America, we're very shy. We don't like people to think about us.

[Quentin]

That's right, John. Famously shy.

[Rory Stewart]

Famously shy, yeah. And obviously I don't want to start on a confrontational note. And these are, you know, these conversations should be civil and we're going to try and keep it that way. But Rory, here in America we're wondering why, why is Europe so hostile? Why do they use us? So why the uk, the eu?

[Quentin]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

Why do they victimize America to such an extent where it's hurtful.

[Quentin]

Rory, it is. It is this. And it's. And this is what JD Vance wants to know. And all those wonderful signal chats. Why are we so mean to you? Why have we been bullying you for such a long time? Why?

[Rory Stewart]

Rory, that's really the simple question.

[Quentin]

No, that's right. I mean, it's an amazing flip, isn't it, that J.D. vance sometimes wakes up in the morning and thinks the United States is this incredible global superpower that's going to tell China what to do. And in other moods, he's like, oh, we're the victimized kid on the playground. Everybody's stealing our lunch money. These horrible Europeans. I think somewhere I was trying to get my head around the mentality, but I guess the mentality at the moment feels like from Europe, that the Trump administration is obsessed with not being taken for a sucker. They seem to think everybody's kind of ripping them off all the time.

[Rory Stewart]

Yes.

[Quentin]

Is that right?

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, I don't think there's any question about that. And we have a very powerful man baby at the helm. You know, I think so much of this. What's, what makes it so difficult is that a lot of the ramifications that are being felt economically throughout the world are the product of kind of a psychological wound that our present leader suffered as a real estate developer from Queens who did not feel that he was given enough fealty from the Manhattan real estate. And so because of that, this is all a search for validation, loyalty, and fealty. Unfortunately, it seems to be plunging the world into a global depression.

[Quentin]

And John, it's weird, isn't it, because I noticed this, that we talk so much about his psychology, and of course, it's very difficult to work out his psychology. So you'll get people who know him well, they'll say, one moment. Oh, he won't be able to put up for Elon Musk for more than a couple of days because he can't bear anyone else in his limelight. And then they'll have to change their view. And they'll be like, oh, no, the thing about Trump is he really likes wealthy people. Or they'll say, he doesn't. The one thing he cares about is the stock market. And then when he tanks the stock market, everyone's like, no, no, no, he doesn't really care about the stock market. But. But what I think it's showing, if I was going to be pretentious for a second, please, is that the structure's falling down. You only start focusing on the psychology of the individual when the system isn't working. Because when you've got a properly functioning system, you know, the civil servants are working, the courts are working, Congress is working. The details of the sort of mysterious psychology of the president is less important. It only becomes important when it all goes executive orders. And I think that's what's so strange about this. This is a guy who, particularly with tariffs, has suddenly found this sort of emergency weapon that he can deploy, and then we all have to start worrying about his psychology.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, it's actually the modus operandi for this administration is to, you know, throughout the history of the United States, the executive has always had a great deal of power, but it's always supercharged that power through the process of emergency declarations. We have an emergency declaration. We have to susp. Habeas corpus emergency declaration. What if we imprisoned all of our Japanese citizens. Emergency declaration in the 50s for tariffs. They're very shrewd about, you know, the Alien Enemies Act. They find those moments. So he catastrophizes to get elected and then uses those trumped up, pardon the pun, catastrophes to enact these emergency powers that basically negate the other branches. And I think that's how he operates.

[Quentin]

And, John, can I again, please?

[Rory Stewart]

Rory, I'm here to help you.

[Quentin]

Thank you.

[Rory Stewart]

You know, originally, I was going to get Europe's vision of us. I'm here to help you.

[Quentin]

Well, you do need to help us, please. So let me, I think, give a little bit of background. So I was briefly a British soldier, and then I was a British diplomat, and I served in the Balkans, so the Bosnia and Kosovo interventions. I was then in Afghanistan.

[Rory Stewart]

I was in Iraq, famously walked through Afghanistan and wrote a brilliant book about it.

[Quentin]

Thank you. Thank you. And in all those places, I work very, very closely with the United States. And so I think I need to begin by sort of setting up the world that I grew up in. It was an American world. I mean, European or British, but it was an American world. And I think it's just trying to get across the sense that since the Second World War, the world has been defined by the U.S. the U.S. set up NATO, basically set up the U.N. set up the World bank, set up the IMF. And when we deployed to Afghanistan, we deployed because the United States had triggered Article 5 of NATO as something you've pointed out. We came to help the United States, somebody who was in NATO being attacked, and we deployed to help. And I developed so much respect for my American Colleagues for their professionalism, for their seriousness. And I really mean this. I mean, they were more professional and serious often, I'm afraid, than we were, because they had more power and more responsibility.

[Rory Stewart]

Right. And took that power and responsibility seriously. Is that the.

[Quentin]

Yeah. And you really got that sense. You know, I became close to people that listeners will be familiar with. General Petraeus, General McChrystal, Richard Holbrooke, Hillary Clinton. I worked with these people, and I was so struck by how committed they were, how serious they were, and how idealistic they could be. Often when we Europeans were being a little bit cynical, it was the Americans in the room who'd say, no, we gotta do this properly. We actually care about democracy or we care about human rights. We're not gonna allow this warlord to just go around abusing people. And it was very precious to me. I mean, it was very precious to me when I used to teach at Harvard. I now teach at Yale. I'm married to an American.

[Rory Stewart]

Don't, by the way, don't think that that means that you can stay. Just know this. We've changed the rules slightly, but particularly.

[Quentin]

Not after appearing on your podcast. John, I'm going to blame you when I turn up and some ICE agent looks at my TikTok account and flings me out.

[Rory Stewart]

That's right, send you to Louisiana and whatever happens, happens.

[Quentin]

Yeah, exactly. I'm coming after you.

[Rory Stewart]

As you should, sir.

[Quentin]

I'm going to be there. And you better come and visit me in Guantanamo, El Salvador, wherever it is, because it'll be your fault. Absolutely no. So just to finish the thought, I mean, I think to really understand the bewilderment and maybe even the overreaction in Britain and Europe to Trump, too, you have to understand how for 70, 80 years, America created this very, very complicated, delicate balance of allies. I'm going to finish with a final little anecdote which mattered to me. When I was chair of the Defense select committee in the UK Parliament 2015, we were looking at basically options of shutting down most of the British defense manufacturing and just buying from the US because it was going to be cheaper and they produce at scale. And we were looking at closing down most of our navy and becoming a sort of Marine Corps attached to the us and we didn't do it in the end, partly because we were worried about employment in the uk and the Navy put up a fight for its own institutions. But Nobody then, nobody 10 years ago ever said, well, wait a second, are you not taking a big risk here? Because what happens if the US was No longer a reliable ally. It was inconceivable. I mean, literally nobody in that room said, well, hold a sec. You're going to put yourself completely dependent on buying US Defense equipment. What happens if a president comes in who says he's going to switch off the Software on the F35s? Or you're going to get rid of your aircraft carriers and your navy and you're going to design yourself into a Marine Corps to deploy with the U.S. but what happens if the U.S. is trying to take Greenland off you?

[Rory Stewart]

That never came up before. That wasn't something that got thrown around in the room.

[Quentin]

It's maybe a silly point and obvious to listeners, but we had no doctrine when we went to military training or we looked at strategy. We had no doctrine for what to do if the US Became an adversary. We literally don't have any plans for defending Greenland because it was inconceivable.

[Rory Stewart]

So that you never thought that we would trigger Article 5 by attacking you.

[Quentin]

Right. I mean, when we wouldn't know what to do.

[Rory Stewart]

It makes sense.

[Quentin]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

So here's where it gets complicated, I think, Rory, because you mentioned a couple of things and we'll roll back and this is maybe the explanation of where we. You talked about sort of viewing America as sort of this idea that our government and our civil service, they all functioned really efficiently and effectively and were run by serious people who had created this worldview where we were the centerpiece of a democratic free world. We amplified our power throughout these various allies, and we respected each other and we supported each other. The truth is, it was the failure of that world order to live up to expectation that led to Trump in the first place. To a large extent, as you've seen from Brexit and populist movements throughout all of Europe and your experience in Afghanistan and Iraq, you viewed the idealism and seriousness of the people in a really positive light. And it was moving and you were impressed by how hard they worked, but it was a disaster. It was a pig.

[Quentin]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

And that led to a real loss of faith and cynicism in this world order. And Trump came in as a hard, truth telling diagnostician.

[Quentin]

Sure.

[Rory Stewart]

This world that you thought was real is actually we're the victims of this. I mean, the irony is we set up a world that we now claim is abusing us.

[Quentin]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

It was our choice.

[Quentin]

John, you've put your finger on probably the most difficult thing that we face, which is this contradiction, because you're completely right. Along with all the stuff that was so positive, there was what you call the pick fuck. I was just.

[Rory Stewart]

By the way, that's trademarked. Don't think you can just slap that on T shirts and go out there and sell that wherever you want.

[Quentin]

Well, it's part of the Stewart brother thing. We can use this. We're brothers.

[Rory Stewart]

Stewart brothers. Pig fuck T shirts.

[Quentin]

We're fine. Yeah. So I was back in Afghanistan in August. This August, just now. Right. And I sat down with the governor of Bamiyan. Last time I sat down with the governor of Bamiyan, she was a human rights lawyer. This time, he has an injured eye, a big turban, he's surrounded by guys with Kalashikovs. And he was the governor of Bamiyan before 9, 11.

[Rory Stewart]

Is he Taliban or is it warlord?

[Quentin]

He's Taliban.

[Rory Stewart]

Taliban.

[Quentin]

And he blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas. He was the guy that did all this. And he's back again. So if you wanted a symbol of how little we achieved, we literally invaded the country to get rid of the Taliban. We spent 20 years. We spent over a trillion dollars, a thousand billion dollars, and then we hand the country back to the Taliban again. So in that sense, of course, Trump's got a point. And I could add to that. Of course, I ran the British International Development Institution and I could see there was so much wrong. You were obviously being tongue in cheek when you're talking about government efficiency. Of course, government's massively inefficient, and I could see all the problems with usaid, but what's happened now is we live in such a binary world that there's not much room for the Stewart brothers to say, well, yeah, government screwed up and it was inefficient and we got to reform it and we've got to do better. It's all. Now, either you're 100% behind USAID and it was the most wonderful liberal institution in the world, or shut it down, turn off the computer, cut all the funding worldwide. So it's the sense of. And this is where I think you want to call out Trump and Musk. It's the bad faith that initially people thought, well, maybe they've got a point here. And here are some recommendations I could make to make government a bit more efficient or. But of course, they didn't care about any of that stuff.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, no, and I think they do it. Where I think it goes wrong is the conflation with USAID and American hubris and adventurism overseas. The arrogance of, we will spread democracy to Afghanistan and they will embrace it and we will be famously viewed as liberators in Iraq and it will all work out. And so I think to lump in programs that are distributing medicines to poverty stricken children with HIV with a foreign policy that seeks to impose a worldview that may be alien to those areas and to enforce it. Same thing with COVID You know, you can go from, you may think that these governments overreached and that they did certain things, but a lot of it might have been in, in very good faith. But ultimately, when you begin to erode your belief in the civic institutions and the infrastructure that upholds them, they become vulnerable to demagogues. Look, Brexit went, went first. You guys were the first ones to.

[Quentin]

Say with the canaries in the mind. Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

All right, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back.

[Ryan Reynolds]

McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with one.

[Quentin]

Of six collectibles and your choice of a Big Mac or 10 piece McNuggets.

[Rory Stewart]

With spicy nether Flame sauce.

[Quentin]

Now available with a Minecraft movie meal.

[Rory Stewart]

At participating McDonald's for a limited time.

[Quentin]

A Minecraft movie only in theaters. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail].

[Rory Stewart]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month.

[Jon Stewart]

Required intro rate first three months only.

[Rory Stewart]

Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail].

[Quentin]

And I think the way that I look at it is that there were three things that defined the world after 1989. There was an idea of liberal democracy and the number of democracies in the world literally doubled between 88 and 2003. The second one was this idea of globalization, free trade, open markets. And the third one was this rules based international order. UN interventions in Bosnia, et cetera. And something happened between about 2004 and 2014. All those things were discredited. 2008 financial crisis wrecked our faith in markets. Iraq and Afghanistan wrecked our faith in these kind of international interventions. The rise of China. China, we don't remember. Most people don't remember. In 2004, the Chinese economy was smaller than the Italian economy. It was the seventh largest economy in the world.

[Rory Stewart]

No disrespect to the Italians, by The way, no disrespect, that is in no way meant to diminish the accomplishments, the.

[Quentin]

Wonders of the Italian economy and goodness.

[Rory Stewart]

Of the Italian people.

[Quentin]

100%. 100%. So as China explodes and becomes within 10 years the world's largest manufacturer and exporter, it doesn't become a democracy. So by 2014, we've got that and we've got the rise of social media and put all those things together and then it's very remarkable. You talked about Brexit, but it's not just Brexit. 2014, Narendra Modi is elected in India. 2014, Putin takes Crimea. 2014, ISIS goes across the Mosul border. 2015, far right party elected opponent Erdogan.

[Rory Stewart]

Also becomes a much more autocratic leader.

[Quentin]

Exactly. This is Erdogan's route. 2016, Trump selected for the first time. So the world is beginning to change very, very quickly. And now we've entered with Trump 2 the kind of shadow world. So if I go through those three things, liberal democracy has become authoritarianism, free trade's become protectionism, rules based international order has become. The strong will do what they will and the weak must suffer what they must.

[Rory Stewart]

Do you think that this is then self correcting pendulum swings? Right. So the overreach of, let's say liberal democracies, who, you know, follow the USSR and all of those Eastern European countries becoming more democratic, these are natural swings because it's not as though these more autocratic societies function better. And with China, it was really their entry into the wto, but China was going to grow anyway. Is it maybe a failure of expectation of the people in these countries? We believe things to want to be more successful than, than they are or should be. Is it our expectations that are out of whack, or is it a natural cycle of kind of pendulum swings that go along in terms of these disruptions? Or is it a failure of our societies to adequately remedy the unforeseen collateral damage of some of these swings? And I know that's a hugely broad question and you can take any one of those.

[Quentin]

Well, I think it's four things. I think it's power, I think it's America, I think it's the modern age and it's ideology. And what do I mean by that? I mean that 89 to 2004, America has defeated the Soviet Union. It is completely unchallenged. China is still a minnow in the world. And power leads to overreach. You're like, we've done this in Bosnia, we've done this in Ukraine.

[Rory Stewart]

Hey, hey, go easy. Settle down.

[Quentin]

The second one is America. And of course, America is a country based on Kandu. I remember arguing with American officials in Afghanistan, and I would say, you literally, you can't do this. HR McMasters was trying to eliminate all corruption from the Afghan government. He's the guy that went on to be Trump's national security advisor. And I said, you can't do it. And the answer was always, we're American. Don't give us problems, give us solutions. What is it we need to do? Is it we need more troops? Is it we need more money? And when I said, you know, there was a document that was circulating, this is honestly true. Right. The American government, the European governments, signed up to a statement by Ashraf Ghani, who became the Afghan president. And it ran as follows. Every Afghan is committed to a gender sensitive, multi ethnic centralized state based on democracy, human rights, and the root of law. Right. Okay. No. You think it's funny. I think it's funny, but at the.

[Rory Stewart]

Time, I remember that Hamid Karzai had on his resume, he. Him. I think I remember that.

[Quentin]

Yeah. Yeah. No, but I mean, why did we not realize at the time how grotesque this was? So that's partly about America then. I think there's the point about the modern world, which is that we are in a world of instant gratification. You know, when I was waiting for you to come on, I was, you know, scheduling my Uber eats. And I don't want to know that there are. I don't want someone to tell me that it's going to take time or it's complicated or I want it now. Right.

[Rory Stewart]

Progress.

[Quentin]

Yeah. And then the final thing is ideology. I think we thought that democracy had won and we couldn't see that we were in this funny, funny little bubble and that most of the world wasn't really going in that direction and that even these words didn't mean the same to different people. So I remember feeling this. I worked part of my life in Indonesia and in Africa. We call 100 different countries democracies. In some cases, it means it's Sweden. In other cases, it just means there's been a vote, but there's a bunch of corrupt, autocratic bureaucrats who aren't paying any attention to anyone.

[Rory Stewart]

No, that makes. It makes total sense. And I think the thing that America had a difficult time reconciling is we can't remove corruption from our country.

[Quentin]

Right.

[Rory Stewart]

Let alone. So when you hold other places that you're going into and the other side of it is. Interventionism takes many forms. And we've tried soft power. You know, as they say, classically soft power, hard power, economic sanctions, all those things. None of it seems to be particularly foolproof in terms of influence and good outcomes. We've tried lightly bombing countries to decapitate their autocratic leadership, and that turns them into godforsaken hellholes of warlordism. We've tried toppling them with our magnificent army and then holding those countries together with the sinewy textures of our nation building engineers. That doesn't seem to work. You know, what we haven't learned how to do is to manage the expectations and dynamics to create little harm. I'll go even further. I think we caused a lot of this populist turn by destabilizing the Middle east and causing a great deal of migration that ended up going into, you know, globalization and all these other ideals are now being challenged by the idea of the nation state.

[Quentin]

Yeah, John, so I think you're absolutely right, but I think we need to guard against too much despair.

[Rory Stewart]

Yes.

[Quentin]

The risk is that the right thinks we don't want to having to do with other countries because we don't like poor people in other countries. The left can begin to think a bit like you're saying now, well, we screw it all up anyway, so maybe best we stay at home. We don't do anything. Of course, the truth is that under American leadership since the Second World War, and particularly in that 89 to 2014 period, every year the world got more prosperous, more peaceful. There were fewer refugees, there were fewer internally displaced people, more democratic governments. And the big success, which we don't talk about enough, is Europe. If you look at countries like Romania and Lithuania in 1989, they were very, very poor, autocratic states. They are now prospero liberal democracies. But it requires something that is quite different from the kind of intervention you're talking about. It requires a really rich carrots and sticks and it requires patience. So how did this miracle for these dozen countries in Eastern Europe work? It worked because they had the carrot of being able to join the European Union. They had very, very generous structural funds over a long time. Their population believed in it. They had a reason to get behind it. Let's give us a bit of credit for the direction that Japan went in, South Korea went in, Taiwan went in. But partly it was because you haven't talked about it very much. I mean, how many of your listeners know that you've still got 25,000 soldiers in South Korea? Right.

[Rory Stewart]

All of Them because our listeners are very, very well.

[Quentin]

So keep going for that 60 years. And the truth is, you went through South Korea being a pretty poor military, authoritarian, protectionist government to what it is now, which is one of the most vibrant, interesting, dynamic, liberal countries on earth. So there's a lot of stuff which has gone in the right direction since the Second World War while the US has been right at the center of this system. So I want to keep making the argument for that odd combination, that American soft and even hard power, those 25,000 troops can push things in the right direction.

[Rory Stewart]

Sure.

[Quentin]

But it requires, I think, a couple of things. One of them is patience. The second thing is don't talk to the American people too much about it. Turns out the places which are going best are the places you never mention.

[Rory Stewart]

How dare you, sir? I think you could be right.

[Quentin]

The fact you don't talk about South Korea is part of the trick. You had 2,500 soldiers in Afghanistan, no casualties for 18 months. You could have continued doing that forever, but you talked about it so much. Biden felt he needed to go big or bust. You don't think that was South Korea?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, there has been, though, for a long time. There's. And again, this is now the Trump kind of play of victimhood is that South Korea has used us, all these countries, by not militarizing, by using our defense as a shield and creating stability for themselves, were able to focus their resources on this economic development. So they've done great. But we've suffered desperately because of that, because we're being forced to. You know, nobody ever talks about that. We like our influence being global. We have more than 750 military bases. Nobody made us build those. We did that. That was us. And as much as we want to pull back, our Defense Department is getting a raise again. It's going to be a trillion dollar defense bill because we're going to build a golden dome and we're going to do all these other things. I continue to believe this and I wonder if you feel the same way about the UK that the issue in our country is not trade or trade deficits or all these other things, it's that we were unable to properly distribute and reinvest the gigantic wealth that has been generated in this country over these past 30 or 40 years into effective, competent change in our own country.

[Quentin]

That's completely right, John. So the story of Reagan and the story of Thatcher was that by releasing the markets, we were going to generate growth.

[Rory Stewart]

And you did trickle down, baby.

[Quentin]

Yeah. You generated incredible Growth. I mean, I think one of the things that's difficult to understand in the US Debate is you are all thinking, well, the reason Trump came to power is that the American economy is relatively weak and that what Trump's doing is going around the world saying we've been taken for a sucker and they're all getting rich at our expense. Of course, the rest of us have spent the last five years looking at you, thinking you're an economic miracle. Europe's economy was the same size as the American economy 10 years ago. You're now 50% bigger than us. So we look at you and we're like, wow. Then the question is, how do you reconcile that with how somebody feels in Dayton, Ohio, who's voting for Trump? How does this make sense? On the one hand, the American economy is going gangbusters. You've got the seven largest companies in the world, you've got 70% of all global equities are in the United States, et cetera. And yet a lot of people feel their lives are very underwhelming, very disappointing. They're struggling with cost of liquidity.

[Rory Stewart]

So here's where it gets tricky, Rory, because you're right. And by the way, the difficulties in those industrialized, or I should say deindustrialized areas is very real. Those folks have much harder lives now as we can't compete with China's low wage and low regulation environment that creates those. And it did hollow it out. But part of the issue there in terms of the political pressure is it almost invariably occurred in our small swing state. There's only five states that matter in this country because of our electoral college. Generally states are blue or they're red. There's some purple states that are still in contention. They are almost all suffering from deindustrialization. So that became. Because here's. You could make another slogan in our country and it's called Nobody gives a shit about Oregon. Yeah, because, yeah, if Oregon was the swing state, then their issues, which would not be de industrial, they'd be something else, would be the ones that dominate our policy and our public discussion. You know, if Iowa was a swing state, we would all be talking about tariffs on any hog producing countries that, that might be going along. So this is an outsized response to a narrowly focused geographic issue.

[Quentin]

Sure.

[Rory Stewart]

Boom. Taking a quick break. We shall be back.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Don't miss your chance to spring into deals at Lowe's right now. Get five select 1 pint annuals for just $5, plus get a free 60 Vol volt Toro battery when you purchase a select 60 volt Toro electric mower. With deals like these, your yard wins. Shop in store or online today. Lowe's we help you Save valid through 430 wall supplies last Actual plant size and selection varies by location. Excludes Hawaii.

[Jon Stewart]

This message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place with Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk [e-mail] Spotify.

[Quentin]

Well, let's look at this problem of democracy, right?

[Rory Stewart]

Whoa, hey.

[Quentin]

What?

[Rory Stewart]

Tread lightly, sir.

[Quentin]

This is an issue in Brexit. So I present the Rest is Politics, which is the UK's biggest podcast. And the question that comes almost every week to us is why are we not rejoining the European Union? And people point out that something like 65% of the British public now think Brexit was a mistake. So it seemed like a no brainer, right? 65% of the public think Brexit mistake. We'll rejoin the European Union, particularly when America's getting a bit erratic. Why don't we get closer to our European allies? But the problem is the problem you've just identified. Labour and Conservative, two main parties are fighting about this tiny group of states called the Red Wall. And those people, and they're mostly in de industrialized areas, voted to leave the European Union. And so although Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister and his entire cabinet voted to remain in the European Union, thought Brexit was a horrible idea, they're not moving even a millimeter closer to even soft versions like rejoining a customs union or anything with Europe because they're worried about those few swing voters.

[Rory Stewart]

And what'll happen is Reform UK will primary everybody from the right and they'll be the ones that, I mean, I don't think Labor's in trouble with that, but I would imagine that the Tories will be consumed by reform.

[Quentin]

So this is another way in which we all are a bit American. So this is a story in Canada, it's a story in Australia, it's a story in the United Kingdom, it's a story in Germany. Germany, the far right, now, the AfD, which is this party that Musk was getting behind, this neo fascist party, now up at 26% of the polls. It's the biggest party. Right. Right in the polls. And I was a Conservative Member of.

[Rory Stewart]

Parliament after having been a member of the Liberal Party.

[Quentin]

Of the Labour. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The Labour Party. And I don't know where my politics in US terms is probably a little bit to the left of Hillary Clinton, but I'm not.

[Rory Stewart]

It makes you a Conservative.

[Quentin]

I'm not full Bernie Sanders.

[Rory Stewart]

Right.

[Quentin]

And when Boris Johnson became Prime minister, I was so horrified. I mean, the guy's a complete. He's a terrible human being. He was clearly going to be a.

[Rory Stewart]

Terrible prime minister, but a wonderful zipline photo op.

[Quentin]

Yeah. He's a funny buffoon. He's a good clown. Right. I mean, it's the age of clowns in politics.

[Rory Stewart]

Yes.

[Quentin]

He's a funny guy. Trump maybe can also be quite funny sometimes. I mean, that's part of the problem with these people. I mean, you're funnier than both of them, but they're quite funny.

[Rory Stewart]

Thank you.

[Quentin]

And they're quite good television performers. Right?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. No, they're, they're charismatic, but they play into a real sense of grievance that is real. The problem with a good diagnostician is they also have to be a good fixer. And that's where we're starting to see the chaos unroll.

[Quentin]

And a couple of things there. So I and 21 of my colleagues would not put up with Boris pushing ahead with a hard Brexit. And we resigned. We left Parliament, which is one of the reasons I've been a bit puzzled by why my Republican Senator and Congress people friends were not doing the same with Trump. I cannot understand what they're doing. I mean, they say to me, well, you know, I'd lose my seat. Well, we all gave up our seats to protest against Boris Johnson, so why are they not prepared to risk their seats to protest against Trump?

[Rory Stewart]

I'm sorry, did you just say, are they not prepared to risk their seats? Is that. Yeah. Are you suggesting that self interest and self preservation should not be the sole motivation for. Listen, Donald Trump has a hold on his constituency. I, I can't honestly think of. Even Reagan did not have. You know, they keep talking about cancel culture. The real cancel culture in this country is anybody who might speak out against Donald Trump who might be on the right is immediately exiled. There was a gentleman. This has just recently happened. There was a gentleman who was full maga Pentagon spokesperson. He. He wrote an op ed about the chaos going on in the Department of defense. Donald Trump Jr. Just put out a statement this man is excommunicated. This man has been exiled from the maga. You can be cast out like it's Thunderdome, Mad Max. You must wander the desert. It's a bizarre purity test.

[Quentin]

It's incredible. And for me, as a conservative who's turned against this, you see it very directly. So you know, I had JD Vance tweeting against me and saying, you know, or he said, I've always said that Rory thinks he's got an IQ of 130, but actually he's got an IQ of 110.

[Rory Stewart]

So I love, by the way, I loved the specificity of that, that it was very precise. I think it's 130, but it's 110. And most people are like 110 is pretty good. I would take 110.

[Quentin]

That's what I thought. I was pretty proud with 110. Yeah, yeah, it sounds great. Ye. So yeah. So then you get. Once that happens and I've had Elon Musk tweet out against me, I've had Donald J. Trump Jr. It's amazing what's unleashed because of course they have tens of hundreds of millions of followers in some cases, right? So then you suddenly are hit with a barrage of 5,6000 replies. And I'm trying to get in a fight with JD Vance about my interpretation of Christianity and his interpretation of Christianity, but most of the response that you get is you wouldn't be able to beat him in a, in a push up competition. They're really not.

[Rory Stewart]

He will punch you in the face, sir.

[Quentin]

That's it exactly.

[Rory Stewart]

You know, the amazing thing is the issue with them is they believe their IQs are 180, right. And they're 110. Or you know, there's an infallibility now what's happening right now will test their ability to the reality distortion field that they have been able to project that's been really effective at inoculating them against any kind of accountability or criticism is really going to be pushed here because of this trade war. There is nothing that they pushed more vehemently. There is nothing that they described in starker terms as being the medicine that was necessary to reverse the victimization that Americans writ large have faced in the world. And you are watching it crumble. The President sat down with the heads of Target and Walmart and other big box stores and they were like, hey man, I just want to let you know in two weeks we are going to be out of shit. You are going to see empty. And all of a sudden and then the Bond market went crazy, and Treasuries, you know, the dollar is weakening. Treasuries aren't being bought up as much by as the safe haven. And all of a sudden today, Donald Trump said, you know, I'm thinking, actually, you know, all these people are kissing my ass to make deals. I'm thinking I'm just gonna drop the tariffs to like, 40%, 50. I don't know. You know what? China has to make a deal, so why not just drop all the tariffs? Because they have to. And I'm wondering, will this be the moment that finally they go, oh, the man behind the curtain isn't brilliant, doesn't have the answers, or. Or will there be just another reality distortion kind of moment for them?

[Quentin]

John? I mean, again, you know far more about the US but from the European and international perspective, we are in a real existential crisis here. I mean, for the first time in 70 or 80 years, Europeans are asking themselves, maybe we need to be closer to China than the U.S. i mean, it's mad. There is no moral equivalence between China and even Donald Trump's US Yeah, I.

[Rory Stewart]

Just can't see that being an option. I just can't.

[Quentin]

And yet it's happening. And China, basically, China had one objective over the last 20 years, which is to break the link between the US and its allies, as did Russia.

[Rory Stewart]

Same thing.

[Quentin]

Absolutely. And you can see Xi Jinping, the Chinese premier, has been touring around Southeast Asia. Usually he doesn't say anything, but the last week he's been saying, I'm going to be your reliable ally. You can see op EDS appearing in the Chinese newspapers about how Europe needs to reach out to China. We're going to get great offers on Chinese electric vehicles, which is going to make a lot of sense to us because they'll be very cheap and it will help us in the energy transition. And poor people in Europe are struggling to afford electric vehicles, which we're forcing them to buy. So all this is happening, and it's completely bewildering. So we're praying that the world is going to right itself. We're praying that the old United States that we used to know is coming back and that in the end, the institutions of the United States, the midterms, and of course, sadly, in the middle of this, it's a really sad thing. People are slightly thinking, well, I kind of hope he screws up the global economy because that might finally destroy him. People are thinking, well, the one thing Hitler didn't do is screw up the economy. He was quite good at creating Jobs.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, that's the authoritarian bargain. The authoritarian bargain, you can disappear the unpopular, you can get rid of the immigrants and the trans and the thing. But the trains, really, you've got to.

[Quentin]

Get the trains running on time. Yeah. So Trump is very interesting if he can be the first proto fascist who turns out to be entirely economically illiterate and completely incompetent and totally able to drive up prices in the United States, crash the stock market, destroy America's position as the world's reserve currency. And it's felt by people. It's felt in Medicare, it's felt in Medicaid. I mean, it's not. I'm talking to you from Yale University. Obviously, the average voter does not particularly care what happens to an Ivy League university or even usaid or many of the stuff I care about. Voice of America, the Wilson center, all.

[Rory Stewart]

The things that have been holding our great country back.

[Quentin]

That's right. And the tariff thing, I mean, I spent so much time talking to colleagues in Switzerland, in Europe, in Southeast Asia, in China about this, and it is bewildering. I mean, your listeners will understand that Trump is saying four completely contradictory things. He's saying these tariffs are going to generate a huge amount of money for the US Government. Right.

[Rory Stewart]

No more taxes. All the money from tariffs. That's right. It's the most beautiful word in the English language.

[Quentin]

Exactly. We're going to import all this stuff from China. And second thing is, it's going to create lots of jobs. That's the opposite. That's. We're not importing things from China, we're going to make them here, in which case you don't get the tax revenue. Third thing he's saying is, no, no, no. These are temporary things which are being used to achieve something else. Right. They're being used to get a concession on fentanyl from Canada or Mexico. In other words.

[Rory Stewart]

Sure. Canada has been flooding us with over $40 worth of fentanyl over the last 10 years.

[Quentin]

So that's a completely different theory. That's like, I'm not actually going to keep tariffs. I'm not going to get the revenue from it. I'm not going to get the jobs from it. I'm just using it to stop the fentanyl coming. And then the fourth theory which seems to be going with China is I'm using it to damage somebody else's economy. It's like sanctions. I'm just punching them and I'm going to take some damage in my own economy, but they're going to feel it more. Walmart will feel the pressure. China macroeconomics will fear it more. He may be right. But then there's a whole question about, but who's got more political resilience, Xi Jinping with his people or Donald Trump with his people, as the painter inflicts it on these two economies in different ways.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, I think we're seeing right now how it's changing.

[Quentin]

And so just, I mean, that's a kind of overly complicated way. As soon as you, I learned as a politician, as soon as you have four points, you've lost everybody.

[Rory Stewart]

But the first one was good enough. Rory. I was riveted by the first one. I don't, I don't remember any of the rest of it. But let me ask you this then. So, but China, look, nobody is going to trust they have the same problem that Trump has. When, when you are creating something out of executive action, you are not creating something lasting through legislation. And people understand that that has less stability. So a new president comes in four years from now and immediately reverses it. And so nobody is going to reshore the factories that were going to cost billions of dollars that we. But so the question is this, though, you keep saying, you know, 70, 80 years, post war stability, as Bannon would say, these are the great turnings, the 70 to 80 year great turnings. This is the new one. So what is the new turning? Because it's very clear that the populist leaders have a very different view. They have a nation state. Look, in the old days it was democracy versus authoritarianism or capitalism versus communism. Now it's woke versus unwoke. It's purity versus multiculturalism, meritocracy versus dei. Now, I don't buy that any of those things are real in the way that they are portrayed, but that seems to be the organizing principle. And how do you create stability out of that? And can the EU and the UK be the leaders of that old democratic order, or will they fall prey to the same pressures? Will Russia and the United States be able to split Europe like they're doing now?

[Quentin]

Yeah, well, I think first thing is you've, you've made a really important point, which is the world's changed. We've entered this funny shadow world. And basically what we're looking at is a new form of fascism. Really. I mean, fundamentally, these people doesn't matter whether it's Erdogan or it's some of the people around Trump or it's Narendra Modi. These are people who think like many people did in the 1920s and 30s that liberal democracy was kind of weak and indecisive and incompetent and it failed people.

[Rory Stewart]

I think Musk said that empathy is the world's biggest problem.

[Quentin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I, I like you. I was talking to Ezra Klein recently and he's. The whole world's been talking to Ezra Klein. I think you made that joke.

[Rory Stewart]

Kids everywhere.

[Quentin]

Kids everywhere.

[Rory Stewart]

He's like Chalamet promoting a Dylan biopic. You can't get rid of him.

[Quentin]

It is like that. It's exactly. You can't get rid of him anyway. Anyway. And one of his points is he thinks that Musk was motivated by the fact that he felt that his employees were rude to him and that they kept asking for empathy and that a lot of this rage with DEI and Wokeism is just Musk and other tech bros feeling that the people who work for their companies were not obedient enough to the great leader.

[Rory Stewart]

That's interesting.

[Quentin]

Anyway, this idea that we're going to come in, we're going to bring in strong men and they're going to be efficient, they're going to get stuff done and we don't care too much about all that other stuff. And in their mind it's all nonsense and inefficiency. You know, it might be woke, it.

[Rory Stewart]

Might be law, but also that they're going to reclaim something. They're going to reclaim their country's default setting. The default setting of America being white, Christian and male. The default setting of Germany being Germans. The. You know, isn't there something that. It's a. It's a reset. Seeking to change what the Great Society or the New Deal or any of those other kinds of migratory, globalistic. You know, it's a reset.

[Quentin]

It's a reset. And it's a reset that has two particular implications. The first is corruption, which I think you talk about a lot, which is these regimes foster corruption. I mean, tariffs is a very good example. Tariffs are lovely thing for Trump because each individual business has to come on bended knees and ask for a little exemption. The second thing that it breeds is violence and conflict. So you mentioned Germany. The AfD in Germany say that there are real Germans and they do an analysis which basically in their ideology says that Muslims are not real Germans and that includes German citizens who are Muslims. And they have this idea of re migration, which basically means you push them out of the country.

[Rory Stewart]

Of citizens, of citizens.

[Quentin]

And this is true in Austria too. These parties have a full ideology where they've actually counted the number of people from different countries. That should be. So they say, we don't want zero Afghans, but in a Germany of 100 million, we think there should be 300. They've counted the numbers. It's a very, very weird.

[Rory Stewart]

Can those people have families or it's capped at 300.

[Quentin]

I think it's capped at 300. Maybe if you get above it, you leave again. And actually, the Austrian far right, Kiko's far right, has been very clear about this, that this will extend to citizens as well. Now, why does this lead to violence? It leads to violence because it questions the fundamental idea since the Second World War, which is the equality of everybody's rights, that it doesn't matter whether you're Muslim or white, you have the same rights. Once you question that, then other things become more likely, and this is where it gets dangerous. Because then you begin to think, well, I should add a little bit to my territory here and look at the way that Trump thinks about Greenland as an example of this, because I think other leaders are going to begin behaving like this. What's so strange about it is that he doesn't even have the grace to lie or be a hypocrite. So you talked about Timothee Chalamet. Well, Timothy Chalamet is being Henry V, right?

[Rory Stewart]

Yes.

[Quentin]

He's going off to France and he's at least pretending that he has a legal claim to France. You know, his dad's mum's dad was actually the king of France.

[Rory Stewart]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Quentin]

And when Hitler's invading Poland, he's at least faking a border incident, claiming he's responding to the Poles attacking him. What's odd about Trump and Greenland is there's no moral or legal excuse at all. He just says, I want it.

[Rory Stewart]

Yes.

[Quentin]

I've got the troops, I've got the money. Give it to me. And that collapse of international legal frameworks, morality, is very unusual. I mean, it's taking us back almost a thousand years. It's the mentality of a warlord, no question.

[Rory Stewart]

No question. But I think they are underestimating the role that stability plays in the economic successes of the last 70 or 80 years. And I think liberal democracies were underestimating the role that immigration, or uncontrolled immigration, played in that stability, that by, you know, there's a difference between recognizing human equality and not controlling borders. And I do understand you welcome people, but there has to be. The biggest problem in immigration in this country is that our system is just utterly broken. There are no rules. They're bringing, getting green cards. You could be here for 40 years. You could be here. We don't know how many people we want to have in. We don't. You know, by not being able to successfully articulate and execute policies, we make ourselves vulnerable to these other kinds of disruptions which are far more existential.

[Quentin]

Yes. And I didn't quite get onto your point about Europe. Immigration. Uncontrolled immigration is the number one reason for the rise of the far right in Europe. And unless mainstream centrist parties can come up up with serious policies on how to be humane, generous, but also control immigration, how to say, that's right, we're going to take asylum seekers, but we're going to be realistic about the numbers we're going to take. These are going to be the criteria. We're going to share the burden across Europe. If you can't do that, you're dead. If you can do that. This is an incredible opportunity for Europe.

[Rory Stewart]

That's right.

[Quentin]

Astonishing opportunity.

[Rory Stewart]

Because astonishing.

[Quentin]

Suddenly we can be what we haven't been for a very long time, which is stand up and be serious about these values which are at the heart of the European Union. We talk a lot about democracy, we talk a lot about equality. And of course, Musk wants to suggest it's all fraudulent. It's not. And particularly in Eastern Europe, where people have been through this experience since 1999, they believe it deeply. Talk to a poll. They really believe this stuff.

[Rory Stewart]

There is room for a law and order liberalism. There is a room for a stable progressive feeling that is not just based in idealism, but based in infrastructure and based in the idea of real governance that doesn't. You know, one of the problems here on the left is if you're going to solve one problem, that problem also has to solve every problem. If I want to do housing, that also has to solve global warming.

[Quentin]

Sure.

[Rory Stewart]

I also think, boy, this is getting us into a whole other discussion. And I apologize for this, but, but. And I really appreciate you taking the time and bringing these insights, but I think that the world's climate policies have been disastrous in a lot of different ways, one of which is the rhetoric of we cannot get to 1.5 degree. We have six months left, we have eight months left. We have. If we don't change our ways, they're asking human beings to no longer be progress oriented. I think. How many COP conferences has there been? What has it been, 40 now. And then what they would do is say, oh, we'll just put a carbon tax on. Oh, good. Well, in Six months when you're voted out of office. Let us know how that goes. I think we have to rethink how this is all being accomplished.

[Quentin]

Yeah. And, John, I mean, the most simple thing in Europe is that most of our environmental policies have been regressive, which means that they've had the biggest impact on the poor.

[Rory Stewart]

Right.

[Quentin]

Because what economists, as everything does. Yeah. And this is partly because economists have got a perfectly logical argument, which is what you want to do is you want to tax people's carbon consumption or their energy use, because that's going to encourage them to reduce it. Right. But of course, who finds the biggest proportion of their income going on filling their vehicle or heating their home? It's the poor, not you and me. Right. So we are pushing a green transition onto the shoulders of the poor. So this also involves having much bigger conversations about tax, about redistribution, about the kind of societies you want to have, and these are not easy. But to return to where I was, I was a working politician and there's something very odd going on in politics. I've written a book which, in the US title, you might like. It's called How Not To Be A Politician.

[Rory Stewart]

Yes.

[Quentin]

And it's the story of my spending 10 years being a pretty useless politician. But I'm trying to be honest about what it's actually like being a politician. You know, how totally mad your life is, how much time you're spending wasting fundraising, how much time you're spending trying to negotiate with the whips.

[Rory Stewart]

Even in the uk.

[Quentin]

Even in the uk. I mean, it's much worse in the us, but even in the uk, when I'm running to be mayor of London, I'm spending a lot of time going to see very, very boring wealthy people trying to ask them for money and putting up whatever their bee in their bonnets is about residents parking or Israel or whatever they want to talk to me about. I decided I want to minimize the horrors of what's happening with Israel and Gaza at the moment. But I'm saying to them, listen, I'm running to be mayor of London. Why are you asking me about my policy on, I don't know, Kashmir? Anyway, put that aside. I guess what I'm getting to is we have created a frozen system. Politics feels paralyzed. And one of the reasons you get the musks and the Trumps is that they are offering to come in with a sledgehammer and. And smash the whole thing up. And one of the things I'm trying to get across, I guess, to people who've not been politicians is until you've been in the system, you don't feel how you're just kind of stuck in treacle all the time. You just cannot move. We spend all our time meeting people and reading smart books about how we can transform things. And then when you try to do it, nothing happens. 100 legal reasons, 100 process reasons. I found myself the cabinet minister in charge of budgets of tens of billions of dollars, and it was unbelievably unsatisfying. I felt it was more fulfilling when I was restoring one block in the old city of Kabul in Afghanistan. I ran a nonprofit called Turquoise Mountain, which my wife now runs. It was really exciting and fulfilling, and I'm working with a couple hundred people and getting stuff done when I'm in charge of a huge government department. The basic answer to almost everything you want to do is, I'm afraid it can't be done. And if it's not your civil servants saying it, it's the polling people or it's your political leadership saying, no, that's not going to work with this voter or that voter or the other. So how do we find energy and responsible energy? Because you began with this, and maybe this is what I want to finish with. When I was running an opposition, I realized that the easiest way to win is you just say, this is all bullshit. These guys are idiots. They've got no idea what they're doing. Look at how crap.

[Rory Stewart]

Hey, stop describing my show. That's my job.

[Quentin]

Exactly. And of course, incredibly tempting, and it works very, very, very well. But of course, it also feeds into all the problems of our modern culture. This kind of uber eats mentality, lack of tolerance with complexity or delays, and produces ultimately Trump, or in a smaller version, Boris Johnson, which is the politics of spectacle, the politics of statements. It's not really about my boring four points about how his tariff policy undermines itself. It's all about claiming to do something. It's the politics of reality tv. And I think undoing that involves more than just you and me being thoughtful and earnest. It involves really thinking about the modern world and thinking about our culture, which is quite difficult to look at, and the role that things like social media play in our culture, who our heroes are, what our morality is, and a.

[Rory Stewart]

Persuasive case to improve those that can have electoral success. Because ultimately, it almost sounds like you're describing this kind of strange paradox of politicians in incumbent situations who show no courage so that they can keep these jobs that they don't do anything in and get very little Satisfaction from, you know. Yeah, that's the strength.

[Quentin]

Yeah. And deeply depressing. I mean, most of my colleagues are depressed. Most of them feel their lives are much less than they wanted them to be. Let me finish with one last A plug. Because I work for an amazing American nonprofit called GiveDirectly. And my slightly awkward link to that is they have a policy of giving unconditional cash transfer to the poorest people in the world.

[Rory Stewart]

Like a micro loan kind of a thing. Or is this a different.

[Quentin]

Except they don't ask for the money back. Oh, it's just a grant. And the results are spectacular. You turn up in a Rwanda village three months after they've received literally unconditional cash for every house. And the whole place has been transformed. Electricity's up, everyone's got livestock, the roofs have been repaired, the kids are in school. It's unbelievable. But it's an exact example of what we've been talking about all the time. The evidence is there, but the politics of it are unbelievably tough. How do you explain to a voter that actually what all the research, all the randomized control studies showed that the best way to do international development is to literally just give someone $900 in cash. Not monitor them, not ask them what they're going to do.

[Rory Stewart]

Right. Bottom up, not top down.

[Quentin]

Yeah. And there is another example of amongst. I get hundreds of examples of the fundamental challenges of our society. Decentralization against centralization, bottom against top, and above all, communication.

[Rory Stewart]

And that will be. And listen your mouth to God's ears. But this is a moment, as you said earlier, and I appreciate you summing it up in that way of opportunity. And something is going to be built in the shadow of this chaos. And if we do it right, it's going to be something really lasting that can give the same kind of years of stability and progress. And hopefully that emerges from all of this. And that we still have podcasts after.

[Quentin]

That happens, and that we still have America because we love America. We want you guys back. Come back.

[Rory Stewart]

Come back, America. The perfect way to end it. Rory Stewart, thank you so much for joining us. Obviously, co host. The rest is politics. Please say hello to Alistair and everybody else and really appreciate you being here and taking the time.

[Quentin]

Thank you for your time. Bye. Bye.

[Rory Stewart]

Bye. I don't know any other way to describe a gentleman like that, that. Other than delightful.

[Kaley Cuoco]

You appreciated the accent.

[Rory Stewart]

I. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate an accent like that. Breaking things down into what it is is the four things that will destroy the world are simply this.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I'm sure he'll love that impression.

[Rory Stewart]

It's a terrible. I don't have the, I don't have the accents down, but my God. The other thing is, for the life that he's led, you would think there'd be a little more wear and tear on the tires. He was in Afghanistan. A soldier then. Mp, Minister, writer, teacher.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I mean, Jesus, I guess there's not too much sun damage in the UK to be done, so.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Oh my goodness.

[Rory Stewart]

So I cannot believe that you went to the pastiness of his countenance. I mean, how dare you look at me at long last. Lauren. But it is, you know what it was I thought most interesting is there is a wistfulness and a kind of confusion in the accusatory tone of Trump and Vance and the kind of, hey, I, you know, we were under the impression actually that you in the United States were benefiting quite a bit from this and we appreciated the stability. So. Fuck.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I know. Looking into this episode, something that really sat with me was the European Commission chief. Comments. I'm currently having countless talks with heads of state and government around the world who want to work together with us on the new order. Everyone is asking for more trade with Europe and it's not just about economic ties, you know, Lord, it's different time now.

[Rory Stewart]

I think it's so amazing when you think about, you know, what has been the cry of the conspiracy, right forever, this new world order and what is Trump ushering in.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Yeah, I mean, something that like I'm sitting with is, I'm like, I can't believe we're kind of rooting for Trump to like. And you guys talked about this in the episode, but it's like we're hoping he screws up the global economy so people start to see the reality of like, who he is.

[Rory Stewart]

Man, boy, do I hope that it doesn't take a screw up to the global economy for people to see who he is. And to be quite frank, I don't even think that will do it. I just don't think that they view his actions and negative effects as being in any way correlated. They'll always view it as sort of like in the old days, you know, the, the left used to cling to communism of Communism's never been tried. You know, just because Stalin killed 8 million people in a forest in, in Russia, the communism's never been tried. And I think you will always have that with Trump. And God, I hope it doesn't take this economic chaos to do that. I hope we pull out of this spiral, cooler heads have to prevail. But, but, man, it is wild to watch, isn't it?

[Brittany Mamedovic]

It is, yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

It's been a hundred days, guys. I don't even think it's been 100 days. Look how old I look.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I've aged so much.

[Rory Stewart]

Not at all. Britney. What are the people saying? What are the, the good people saying? What are they saying?

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Yes, our listeners.

[Rory Stewart]

What do they want from us? Oh, congratulations on a Webby Award.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Hey, congratulations to you, the realm.

[Rory Stewart]

You guys, look at us congratulating each other.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

We did it, guys.

[Kaley Cuoco]

We're like the Spider man meme.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Hey, John, whatever happened to Elon coming on the Daily Show?

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, he came on and it was great. I thought it was a productive conversation. I don't know. You know, the whole thing occurred. He, I guess we did a bit on Doge, and I obviously came up with all kinds of billions of dollars that we could save from subsidies and corporate thing, blah, blah, blah. That was the real cost savings to me. He, you know, said, he said, not, not us. We didn't make any entreaty. He said, I'll come on the show if you air it unedited. And we went, sure, fine. That's how most of them are. So sure. What the. And then he said, like, you're a propaganda. And he started to back away and, and I said, look, you come on or don't come on, but don't pretend like it's. I don't live up to a standard. And that is the last. That is. And that is, I think, and I think Tesla was at, you know, at least 80% of its value at that point. And it's. Since I think plunged to whatever it is, obviously not connected. But I did DM him. Is that a thing?

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Yeah, it is.

[Rory Stewart]

I texted him and just said, like, hey, man, so is there somebody I should, you know, have our guys reach out to to make this happen? And I got ghosted.

[Kaley Cuoco]

You got ghosted by Elon?

[Rory Stewart]

I got left on Red, man.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Wow. Yeah, I mean, we've all been there. Not by Elon, but girl.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, actually, judging from his most recent revelations of his baby mamas, I think everyone has been left on Red at some point.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Oh, man.

[Rory Stewart]

By that gentleman. So, yeah, I, I, I don't imagine it will. I, I, I would be surprised.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I think I have some bad news because I was reading that one of the reasons he's claiming he's leaving government is the nasty and unethical attacks from the left. So that might Be why? Oh, you're on red.

[Rory Stewart]

Completely, I'm sure. Undeserved, you know, in no way reflective of standing on a stage with a chainsaw celebrating the loss of livelihoods for tens of thousands of well intentioned government workers, I'm sure. Yes. No, this is all completely out of the blue and surely. Listen, if there's one thing that this administration does better than anybody I've ever seen, it's play the victim. I've never seen any people, ever, including when my kids were 3 and 2 years old, evade accountability and responsibility and blame others in the way that these people do. It's truly shameless.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Amen, sister friend.

[Rory Stewart]

Thank you. Look at us, the sisterhood of the traveling pants over here.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Do you want another one?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, give me another one. All right, give me another one.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Is it worth it in this day and age to go to school for journalism?

[Rory Stewart]

Oh, wow. Any question that starts with is it worth it? I always want to end with let me work and reverse. All right. Oh, wow.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Yeah, it's a tough one.

[Rory Stewart]

I mean, it's. They, I don't know if they're talking about the financial. I will say this. Is it worth it to society? Hell yes. We need committed, idealistic, tenacious, resilient young students to go into journalism and try not to be defeated by the general outrage, incentivized financial system that we have of discourse. Like, we need those people desperately. And the people that I've met that are going into that, that are young people, are impressive and committed to all those incredible outcomes. Is it worth it to them? I don't know the world that you're walking into. You know, the executive producer of CBS 60 Minutes just quit rather than apologize because he didn't do anything wrong. Editing an interview, which everybody does, it didn't change it. So I don't know the world they're walking into, but I know if that world can change for the better, we need those people. So whoever wrote that, yeah, do it, do it. Yeah.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I mean, I was a working journalist who didn't go to J school, so I might be a bit biased, but I will say that with the changing media landscape, I would just urge people who do invest in a program to make sure it's forward thinking and thinking about the new technologies and the ways you make a living now as a working journalist, how to be a freelancer, you know, those more practical, forward thinking things.

[Rory Stewart]

So let me, let me go with Lauren's answer. Can we, can we strike my answer? Because that, the answer that Lauren just gave was actually actionable and, and perfect. That I think, boy, that's, that's such a good answer, is to think about what that environment is now and choose a program like that. Lauren, what she said a little bit.

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Of life advice, sister.

[Rory Stewart]

What are. What, what? I don't know which member of the traveling pants you are because I'm not sure who's in that. I think there was four of us, but Jillian is working remote today, so she's not around, but yes, boy, that's a good answer. Brittany. What? How else can they get in touch with us? What can they do?

[Brittany Mamedovic]

Twitter. We are weekly show pod. Instagram threads. TikTok, blue sky. We are weekly show podcast and you can, like subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel. The weekly show with Jon Stewart.

[Rory Stewart]

Great job as always, guys. Lead producer, Lauren Walker. Producer, Brittany Mamedovic. Video editor and engineer, Rob Votola. Who? Rob, I'm telling you that pushing back my computer was just the ticket. I felt it. I don't think I banged on the desk as much. For our audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer, Gillian Spear, executive producers, as always, Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Thank you guys so much and we will see you on the next weekly show podcast next week. Bye Bye. The Weekly show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions.

[Quentin]

Paramount Podcasts.