The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart
Episode Title: History Meets Galaxy with Tony Gilroy and Mike Duncan
Release Date: July 10, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart, host Jon Stewart sits down with two distinguished guests: Tony Gilroy, acclaimed writer and director known for his work on the Bourne series and the Star Wars spin-off series Andor, and Mike Duncan, the bestselling author behind the highly regarded Revolutions podcast and History of Rome. Together, they delve into the intricate interplay between historical revolutions and their fictional representations, exploring how past events inform creative storytelling and reflect contemporary societal challenges.

Current Political Climate and Conspiracy Theories

The conversation kicks off with Jon Stewart addressing the murky waters of contemporary politics, particularly focusing on the disappearance of the Epstein files. He laments, "The Epstein files are still not here. They're... It was just a really long drive." (00:27). Stewart critiques the administration's handling of conspiracy-laden narratives, highlighting how figures like Donald Trump have leveraged secretive knowledge to galvanize their base, fostering an environment rife with distrust and division.

Mike Duncan expands on this, analyzing the roots of the MAGA movement, stating, "There was this deep state and they all knew about it. And there was a liberal conspiracy... it's the glue that holds the MAGA moment much more than I think patriotism does." (07:XX). The discussion underscores how conspiracy theories have become a unifying force, driving political agendas and societal tensions.

Deconstructing and Reconstructing Revolutions

Mike Duncan takes the stage to explain his fascination with revolutions, emphasizing their inherent chaos and the pivotal moments that shape history. He remarks, "Revolutions, I think, are inherently interesting moments in time. Right? Like, this is where so much is happening." (09:58). Duncan details his methodology of dissecting individual revolutions to uncover common structures and behaviors, asserting that while history doesn't repeat itself, it certainly rhymes.

Tony Gilroy responds by discussing his approach to creating authentic revolutionary characters in fiction. He emphasizes the importance of realistic behavior over exaggerated motivations, saying, "I try to, you know, pack that musket as tight as I can, and then I send him to prison. And in the prison, the only way he's going to get out of the prison is to lead a revolution." (13:48). Gilroy seeks to portray the transformation of ordinary individuals into revolutionaries, grounded in believable psychological and social factors.

The Entropy of Victory and Leadership in Revolutions

The dialogue transitions to the concept of the "entropy of victory," a term used by Duncan to describe how revolutionary movements often splinter once power is attained. He explains, "Any group achieves victory, then they just start to spread apart and it usually breaks down into some kind of binary." (42:15). Stewart adds to this, drawing parallels with his work on Andor, illustrating how fictional revolutions mirror historical patterns of unity followed by internal conflict.

Tony Gilroy shares insights from his work on Andor, highlighting the gradual buildup of revolutionary momentum and the complexities of maintaining unity. He notes, "I try to show what it takes to get somebody all the way there... you can't manipulate the machinery to do what I want. The characters have to take it where it goes." (17:14). This nuanced approach ensures that revolutionary progress remains organic and reflective of real-world dynamics.

Fiction Reflecting Reality: Predictive Narratives

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around how fictional narratives like Andor anticipate and reflect real-world events. Duncan observes, "The work that you're doing, Tony, and the work that you're doing, Mike, goes into their brains and it does change the way that they interact with tech in this moment." (82:26). This synergy between history and fiction provides audiences with a framework to understand and navigate contemporary societal upheavals.

Tony Gilroy echoes this sentiment, sharing how his creation of the Martian Revolution podcast unintentionally mirrored actual political developments. He states, "Several weeks after I dropped those episodes, suddenly we're doing, you know, mass deportations in America." (77:57). This intersection of fiction and reality underscores the profound impact that creative works can have on societal consciousness and vice versa.

The Role of Technology in Societal Instability

Duncan delves into the transformative impact of technology on societal structures and the potential for it to both disrupt and exacerbate conditions conducive to revolution. He explains, "Changes in communications technology... you can't censor that, you can't control that as the regime." (66:11). The advent of new technologies alters the dynamics of power, communication, and organization, often creating fertile ground for both revolutionary movements and authoritarian consolidations.

Gilroy adds, "There's a monopoly corporation... they just come in, like, you know, like Private Equity style, and they just buy something and then they just fire a bunch of people." (77:57), illustrating how technological advancements can lead to economic disparities and social unrest, fueling revolutionary sentiments.

Political Allegories and Authenticity in Storytelling

The conversation shifts to the use of political allegories in storytelling, particularly within the Star Wars universe. Duncan points out how Andor serves as a mirror to contemporary issues, allowing viewers to contextualize real-world events within a fictional framework. He marvels at the depth of world-building that situates pivotal moments from Star Wars within plausible historical contexts, enhancing the series' resonance with current events.

Tony Gilroy discusses the intentional avoidance of the "great man theory" in his narratives, focusing instead on collective behaviors and systemic forces. He emphasizes, "I do want to suggest that that fight is going to... a mini revolution in the prison, and by the time he gets out on the success of that, he's fully committed." (17:14). This approach ensures that his characters and their revolutionary arcs remain relatable and grounded in human experiences.

Concluding Insights: History, Fiction, and the Present

As the episode wraps up, both guests reflect on the intricate dance between history and fiction. Duncan expresses optimism that historical and fictional analyses can equip future generations with the tools to navigate and possibly mitigate societal upheavals. He muses, "My hope is that for my kids, and maybe even for their kids, their adaptation to it, that it will be native and it will be less destructive." (82:26).

Gilroy concurs, highlighting the importance of authentic storytelling in fostering resilience and understanding. He notes, "It's so engrossing and such a pleasure to watch... building that narrative, layer it on top of all of these, like, very real things that have happened." (86:55).

Notable Quotes

• Jon Stewart (00:27): "The Epstein files are still not here. They were on a desk and then they weren't on the desk."

• Mike Duncan (09:58): "Revolutions... are inherently interesting moments in time. This is where so much is happening."

• Tony Gilroy (13:48): "I send him to prison. And in the prison, the only way he's going to get out is to lead a revolution."

• Mike Duncan (42:15): "Any group achieves victory, then they just start to spread apart and it usually breaks down into some kind of binary."

• Tony Gilroy (17:14): "The characters have to take it where it goes. That's my responsibility."

• Mike Duncan (66:11): "You can't censor that, you can't control that as the regime."

• Tony Gilroy (77:57): "Mass deportations are a part of it. Several weeks after I dropped those episodes, suddenly we're doing mass deportations in America."

• Jon Stewart (82:26): "The work that you're doing, Tony, and the work that you're doing, Mike, goes into their brains and it does change the way that they interact with tech in this moment."

Conclusion

This episode of The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart offers a profound exploration of the mechanics of revolution, both historical and fictional. Through the insightful dialogues between Tony Gilroy and Mike Duncan, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how revolutions are sparked, the roles of individual behaviors and systemic forces, and the ways in which creative storytelling can illuminate and anticipate real-world societal shifts. As technology continues to reshape our world, the interplay between history and fiction remains a critical lens through which to examine and navigate the complexities of modern upheavals.