← The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart
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- [00:01]
Ryan Reynolds
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
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Jon Stewart
With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing Mint Mobile unlimited premium wireless.
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Ryan Reynolds
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Jon Stewart
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Ryan Reynolds
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Jon Stewart
Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch.
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Sadiq Khan
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Jon Stewart
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Sadiq Khan
Taxes and fees, extra Speed slower above 40g.
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Jon Stewart
Detailed. The Ford Explorer is America's all time best selling suv. But we couldn't leave it at that because you still have unmarked paths to pursue. So we gave it an available 400 horsepower engine. It's up to you what you do with that power. The 2025 Ford Explorer, it's all in.
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Ryan Reynolds
The name based on S and p. Global Mobility 1946. The current US total new cumulative registrations.
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Jon Stewart
For all vehicles identified as SUVs. Horsepower and torque ratings based on premium fuel per SAH 1349 standard. Your results may vary. Hello, everybody. Welcome once again to the weekly show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. I am the host of the program. I have my two fabulous producers, Brittany Mimetic and Lauren Walker are going to be joining us. And it is UN week here in New York. It's when the countries of the world gather together to not solve the problems facing the world because they can't even solve the problem of how to get to the fucking UN building without ruining the rest of New York City. Am I right? It's maddening. Maddening. I'll tell you what's not maddening. You know, last week we had Jason Furman on, who was an economist who was basically daring us to give him a noogie. I think that was, you know, he might, he might have had the data, but boy, did I want to wedgie that dude. But we got a lot of response from different economists. We're going to actually have one on at the very end of the show who's going to help explain. Her name is Stephanie Kelton, professor of economics. She has some interesting thoughts on the deficit. We'll do that at the very end, but because it's UN week, we've got some interesting people in the city. Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London, is going to join us and we're going to talk to him.
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Ryan Reynolds
Very excited.
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Jon Stewart
Wow. All the different things, similarities between the UK elections, the American elections, different dynamics. I'm excited about that. So let's Jump in. We got a packed show. And so we are delighted to have with us, joining us for the conversation, the Mayor of London, Mr. Sadiq Khan. Mr. Mayor Sadiq, thank you so much for joining us for the discussion today. And by the way, congratulations to Labor. How long has it been since labor had their historic smashing victory in the recent election?
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Ryan Reynolds
Well, it's great to be in the second greatest city in the world.
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Jon Stewart
Oh, you're in New York right now.
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Ryan Reynolds
It is, yeah. So it's been 82 days since history was made and the Labour Party, the party that I'm proud to be a member of, won a general election for the first time in 14 years. And to give you context, John, and if your listeners in America don't realize this, but for the last hundred years, the Conservatives, our version of the Republican Party, have been in power for two thirds of that time. So Labour has only been in power for a third of the last 100 years. So us winning is unusual. So it's great that we've won after 14 years. And we won pretty big. We won a landslide victory and in.
- [03:37]
Jon Stewart
Some ways counterintuitive to the direction that so much of Europe is going in. And even after Brexit, the direction that the UK was going in generally, the populists and the right have been gaining a foothold. This was a bit of a counter.
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Ryan Reynolds
If you look across the globe and Europe's not excluded, over the last 10 years, there's been a rise of right wing parties and even in some parts of Europe, far right parties. Look at France, look at Amsterdam, look at Germany with the afd, look at Italy. You know, across Europe we've seen this where basically ripe center politicians have played on people's fears and won elections using fear as a motive. We and our election, both my mayoral election in May, but also the general election in July, talked more about hope and about change and about positivity.
- [04:27]
Jon Stewart
Hope and what now? Hope and change. Wait, did you read that off one of our old posters? That's what we used to go with. We used to go with hope and change.
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Ryan Reynolds
Well, you stole that originally for months, if you remember. Son of a.
- [04:37]
Jon Stewart
Really now? Are you surprised? Keir Starmer, he basically ran against the corruption of the Tories and I guess his first hundred days people are feeling a little underwhelmed. He did something with restricting pensioners funding and he's overpaying some of the folks in his cabinet. Was that a surprise to you? That those were moves labor made early on in this administration?
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Ryan Reynolds
One of the things that Keir has tried to do. And I think in my view all good leaders should do this is be teachers in an un patronizing way. Explain to people some of the challenges, some of the problems and then try and address them. And one of the things that Keir has tried to do, the Prime Minister has tried to do, is to explain to the British public, look, we need a long term plan to fix their foundations, to address the inheritance we have. And I got to be straight with you, we've got a black hole. Just this financial year, 24, 25, we've got to find £22 billion. And rather than making false promises or over promising and under delivering, I'd rather under promise and over deliver. And the idea is, John, wait, isn't that austerity?
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Jon Stewart
Hold on a second.
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Ryan Reynolds
Well, let me explain why it's not.
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Jon Stewart
I thought you were labor where you just say like let's just print money, let's print a little bit more money, go into a deficit and take care of business.
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Ryan Reynolds
No, it's okay in my view to borrow, to invest in infrastructure and so forth, but you shouldn't borrow for revenue. Ordinary day to day running costs. That's not a smart thing to do. So at the same time as he's making tough decisions in the short term, he's planting the seeds for the middle to long term in relation to growth, in relation to investment in infrastructure, in relation to saying, listen, there's going to be a dark tunnel for the short term, but there is light at the end.
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Jon Stewart
Did he explain that beforehand? Did he say to the people during the election, hey, by the way, we're in a dark tunnel and I'm going to have to do some things.
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Ryan Reynolds
No, one of the things that he was criticized for was the manifesto that he published not making big promises. He was actually criticized for the manifesto being quite sober. And he said during the campaign, I'm not going to make any promise I can't deliver. I'm not going to have any commitment in my manifesto that isn't fully costed. And many people criticized him for because where's the hope? Where is the, where is it? Where is the excitement? And the point he made was, look, you know, the phrase that, you know, that I've been echoing is actually stability is the new change. We've had a situation, John, where we've had five prime ministers in the last five years. Just think about that five. We had one prime minister who lasted 49 days. A lettuce has a longer lifespan ahead of lettuce.
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Jon Stewart
I saw that Yeah.
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Ryan Reynolds
I mean, for those of you listeners who don't realize there was a competition, who would last longer this lettuce or Prime Minister Liz Truss?
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Jon Stewart
By the way, it has changed the way that I approach eating salads. I now I will. I will let something sit for much longer. It's the. I call it the Liz Truss salad, and I will eat it days after. I shouldn't have even gone near as.
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Ryan Reynolds
Long as it's a salad you're eating and not prime ministers. That's okay.
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Jon Stewart
Now, are you surprised? You know, we are in a very similar situation. And it's interesting how immigration and migrants has. It's not just in particular countries, it's a worldwide phenomenon that is driving these populist movements. I mean, it drove Brexit. It seemingly seems like if Brexit had not have passed, maybe labor wouldn't have had the great success it had in this election. But I was surprised. The slogan for the Tories was stop the boats.
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Ryan Reynolds
Correct.
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Jon Stewart
And I think the slogan for labor was stop the gangs who are funding the boats. But both leaned into this idea that migration, and confusingly, sometimes immigration is an enormous issue.
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Ryan Reynolds
I think progressives around the globe haven't yet found the language to talk about these issues in a way that I think we should be talking about this issue. Look, this great country that I'm in now, this city that I'm in now, New York, you know this better than I do. What made this city, this country great was successive waves of migration. I speak as a child of immigrants. You know, my parents migrated from Pakistan to London, my grandparents, by the way, from India to Pakistan. No migrant, you know, goes through what they do to arrive in a city or a country to sit on their bum to receive benefits. They arrive because they've got a can do attitude. They want to contribute. Sometimes they may be fleeing persecution, sometimes family reunion. And we've got to explain the positives of migration. At the same time, we've got to recognize there are some members of society who've got genuine grievances. They can't get decent healthcare. They can't get affordable housing. They can't let their child into a distant school. But the reason for that is not because they're migrants. It's because politicians have failed to invest in these sorts of issues.
- [09:30]
Jon Stewart
But there are obviously limits. I mean, if you can't. As somebody who does believe immigration, migration is an important part of infusing a country with new energy and new ideas and new enthusiasm and all these kinds of things, I'm also of the mindset that there we have to have a discussion of what can countries. Certainly the United States has a different absorption rate than the UK or than let's say Liechtenstein or whatever we're going to be talking about. That's the part that we don't ever really discuss.
- [10:04]
Ryan Reynolds
So I think one of the things I've not met a sensible progressive who says open borders, anybody can't either.
- [10:11]
Jon Stewart
It's an easy conditions demagogue but you know, spot on.
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Ryan Reynolds
So there's got to be controlled borders, there's got to be a process. And by the way, not every asylum seeker will have a successful case, right? They may not be a genuine asylum seeker, they may not be fleeing persecution. There's going to be a rule system that assesses this, sends people back who shouldn't be here, but it's going to be a process. And if you haven't got safe routes, safe passages, don't be surprised if people use unsafe routes, criminal gangs and all the rest of it and stuff. And that conversation is really important. It goes back to one of the things that I think my profession, politicians has been poor at, which is to be teachers, to explain to people some of the challenges, some of the issues and to address them where you can. And I think what's happened, John, to go back to your point about the rise of populist nativist movements is what politicians have been doing is rather than addressing people's concerns, addressing people's fears, they've been playing on them. And the easiest thing to do and you go back histories is to blame the other. The reason you can't get into healthcare is the other's fault. The reason why you can't get your mum in operation is the other's fault. And it's easy to do. And us progressives have got to get better at responding to genuine concerns, but also calling out a lie, a misinformation in relation to what migrants have been blamed for doing across the globe.
- [11:31]
Jon Stewart
Well, you had that situation in England recently where tragically I think three children were stabbed to death. The misinformation about where the attacker came from, it actually turned out to be somebody from Wales, maybe his parents had immigrated here. But it set off really terrible riots in the streets for those of you.
- [11:53]
Ryan Reynolds
Listeners that aren't aware. So this summer in July in Southport in the northwest of England, there was a lovely kids session taking place of yoga, a Taylor Swift themed yoga event. It's a lovely event, children, teachers. A man came into this yoga themed party, killed tragically a six year old an eight year old and a nine year old injured eight other children and injured two adults. Now this person responsible is born in Cardiff in Wales and there's a criminal case taking place. I won't talk too much about the case. What happened then was very shortly afterwards a lie was put out on social media which said the person responsible was a Muslim. Not true. The person responsible was an asylum seeker. Not true. And this was amplified on social media. By the way, one of the owners of the social media company got involved.
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Jon Stewart
In spreading the lieutenant that's unusual for him.
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Ryan Reynolds
Well, I mean what happened then was. John, a inverted commons protest took place that night and then the far right turned up. They tried to burn. Well, they did burn down a hostile house in Asylum seekers try to attack places of worship where Muslims worship.
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Jon Stewart
John.
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Ryan Reynolds
They were stopping cars to see if the person inside was a person of color or was white. And these riots spread across the country. A combination of lies, disinformation, misinformation and social media. And so in the end, Prime Minister Keir Starmer stopped this by tough law and order in London, by the way, we had thousands coming out in solidarity and allyship. Because here's the irony. In those parts of our country where there's the most diversity, actually you don't have these sorts of problems because people realize that actually somebody as a person of color isn't the boogeyman, somebody who's a child of immigrants isn't the bogeyman. A migrant isn't the bogeyman. It's those parts of the country where actually there is very little diversity where these disturbances took place.
- [13:55]
Jon Stewart
And by the way, it's also, there's a certain kind of implied problem here that I think is also needs to be addressed. Which was, well, it turns out it wasn't an asylum seeker or it wasn't a Muslim or it wasn't a migrant. But even if it had been spot on, none of this is justified. And it brings up, and I'd like to talk to you about this, this is kind of a broader point but you know, we talk about democracy under threat and what we can do to bolster liberal democracy and the forms of government that we've all fought so hard, sometimes even against each other. Let's face facts, we're friends now, but it was, we had a hard time. But the challenge, I think, you know, we talk about the demagogues and the right wing using migrants and Muslims and, you know, all these other groups and Jews and people of color as weapons against each other. I think one of the main, if there's a unifying theory to this, if we go up and get kind of a macro view, we are in a, in an environment where the media and social media are incentivized to spot on conflict and to catastrophizing. And so we have a population that is far more stirred up that, whose reptilian brains have been stimulated by these media companies who are incentivized to keep you scared and to keep you watching. And this is where it gets interesting. I think a democratic system which is naturally analogous, it's kind of slow moving, it's not that agile. And so you have a government that might not be very responsive and a population that's far more intensely engaged. And maybe that mixture is what's putting democracies at risk.
- [15:50]
Ryan Reynolds
So we've got examples of this, actually. 2016, the referendum you mentioned in the UK, Brexit. We now know that, you know, lies were told. But Facebook and a company called Cambridge Analytica were, you know, some of the methods used in relation to that election campaign. We know there's been all sorts of serious issues in Myanmar because of lies being spread on social media. I think a number of things just to unpack the challenge you posed in the modern time, one is this. When you and I were growing up, the mainstream media we relied upon for information, there'd be fact checking, there'd be two sides of the story, and we would get both sides of the story. And you and I as rational human beings could form a view, right? There are young people now in both our respective countries being raised where the way their algorithm on their phone works is whether it's TikTok, whether it's Facebook, whether it's X. The way the algorithms are set up, they get one side of the story with no fact checking. And if you look at a certain video, you know, the algorithms work that you get the same sort of video. It could be a misogynistic man, it could be a racist man, and worse, and there's no fact checking. And over a period of time, you become indoctrinated and brainwashed and start believing that that is your truth and that's.
- [17:08]
Jon Stewart
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- [18:14]
Sadiq Khan
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Jon Stewart
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Jon Stewart
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- [18:41]
Sadiq Khan
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- [18:49]
Jon Stewart
Back with the Mayor of London, Siddiq Khan.
- [18:52]
Ryan Reynolds
And what's worse is they monetize these algorithms so negativity gets more money. So that's why this phrase clickbait is so apt for what we're talking about. And so people know if they mention certain names, it's a trigger which will lead to the algorithms work in a certain way, which means there's no incentive for these social media companies to have negative algorithms to stop that staff to stop those lies being spreading. So in the last couple of years, X has gone the other way. Fewer staff employed to check truth. Algorithms designed to spread misinformation rather than designs to take truth off. Now, if you were to say anything on your program that was against defamation, copyright, intellectual property, incitement laws, it's the wild west. On social media, there are no rules that apply. And the famous Mark Twain saying, a lie is halfway around the world before truth's got its socks on. Nowadays with social media, a lie is spread. We've had riots in the UK because of lies, misinformation, disinformation. And the context in a democracy is really serious. And that's before you mentioned foreign agents. Sure, that's before you mentioned bot farms.
- [20:05]
Jon Stewart
People that are people that are weaponizing it. Now the challenge is free speech. So in liberal democracies, we have a value on free speech, which I think is incredibly important. I Think the distinction I want to make is this isn't free speech. This is incentivizing people to engage more with lies, with weaponization, with things that create fear. It's not an algorithm isn't neutral, it's not benign. It drives you to further and further places of dispute. And in some ways, I think that can be suppressive for free speech as well, because that. Isn't that the balance? How do we maintain free communication, free speech for people, allowing them to exchange ideas without necessarily incentivizing the most damaging of those ideas for further engagement? Does that make sense?
- [21:03]
Ryan Reynolds
It does. But I'd qualify what you've said, which is, I think we've got to recognize that even in the most liberal Western democracies, there are limitations on free speech. So you aren't allowed to breach copyright or intellectual property or be defamatory or incite hatred and so forth.
- [21:19]
Jon Stewart
Inside hatred I don't know about. But the other ones, I think you're right.
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Ryan Reynolds
So we've recognized there's some limitations to have in a civilized society. Here's, here's where I think the, probably the problem is.
- [21:28]
Jon Stewart
Yeah.
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Ryan Reynolds
Lawmakers have been slow to respond to the rise of social media. And here's, here's what social media companies need to recognize. Unless they sort themselves out, regulation is coming down the road because we've got to regulate this. And if you can't do it as nation states, there's got to be multilateral agreements because people will try and play.
- [21:52]
Jon Stewart
Around like nuclear power.
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Ryan Reynolds
Absolutely. Let me give an example of a real life study. You've heard of Deepfake, right?
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Jon Stewart
Sure.
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Ryan Reynolds
So in the UK we have every November 11th at 11am we commemorate our fallen heroes. It's called Remembrance Day in the UK and at the Cenotaph, we have an event where veterans come along and we pay our respects to them. Last year, we also have been having regularly protests in support of people in Gaza taking place. It's really important in a democracy, we allow protests to take place as long as it's peaceful, lawful and safe. Now that's the background. So in the week before Remembrance Day last year, some malevolent people put out a deep fake, deep fake of me instructing the police to cancel Armistice Day, to cancel Remembrance Day because I wanted the police to allow a Palestinian protest to take place.
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Jon Stewart
So this is you coming out and saying, we want to cancel our Remembrance Day and I want there to be a pro Palestinian bottom. And this is a video. This is an actual video.
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Ryan Reynolds
This is a deep fake audio. Because and it was supposed to be a secret recording of me instructing the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. So I'm instructing the police, saying, listen, the most important thing is pro Palestine Council. Remember today, John, this thing spread and went viral, right? What happens then is the far right organize a protest at the Senate half because they believe that I want to cancel Remembrance Day. What happens then is they rock up at the Cenotaph and there are disturbances. They assault police, they attack the police. There are broken bones. And here's the irony. Remembrance Day was disrupted not by pro Palestinians, but so far, these patriots inverted commerce. Right? That is just one example of what we're talking about. And so you're spot on. This technology is being used in a malevolent way and we've got to regulate it, because if we don't regulate it, it's the Wild West. And that's why I'm saying to the social media companies, look, wake up. If you don't sort yourselves out, there'll be a problem. Now, they must have known, John, early on this was a deep fake. And if not, why don't check with me. Why don't. Listen, by the way, this thing's gone viral. Can you please confirm, is this you or not?
- [24:22]
Jon Stewart
Oh, but sometimes, Siddiq, it's coming from the leaders themselves. Donald Trump and J.D. vance knew that Haitian immigrants who most of whom were there legally, were not actually going around Springfield, Ohio, and eating people's pets. But they said it, when told it wasn't true, said, well, it may not be specifically true, but that's how people feel. And this is a larger point. Sometimes it's not fakes at all. It's actually coming from inside the house.
- [24:56]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, in that case, what I think we need to be better at doing is not giving equivalents. I'll give you an example. You've probably heard this before. I think I may have got it from you, which is, look, if you tell me it's sunny in New York, I tell you where I am and we're in the same room, it's raining. Rather than it being reported that Jon Stewart said it's raining, Sadiq Khan said it's sunny. Your job as the journalist, say, I've looked outside the window and it's raining. You know that's right. And so. And then. And then the recipient of the fake news, the disinformation, can know that actually somebody has checked and that's a lie. Would, that. Would the Springfield, Ohio story, John, don't be surprised if some people believe it's True.
- [25:38]
Jon Stewart
Not some people. I'd say 80% of a certain political party in the United States not only believes it's true, but is being somehow covered up and is evidence of not only the truth of what was happening with Haitian immigrants, but of a media conspiracy. But I want to get to the point that you said earlier, which is we do have to regulate that, and that's, again, that's the second half of this equation. I have watched congressional hearings on social media where they'll haul in the heads of these companies or they'll do it. These senators and these congressional representatives are so in over their heads. You know, we used to do a big bit about Ted Stevens from Alaska, who would, you know, very famously was the Internet is a series of tubes, as though it's literal plumbing and, you know, food goes down there. So even when you said we've got to regulate these social media companies, well, AI is around the corner. We haven't effectively done anything to stem any of this in the first place. That was my point about how do we make representative government more responsive and agile to the needs of the people as also a counterweight. It's one thing to be against misinformation and all those things, and that is an absolute issue. But to be fair, government has not been particularly, especially here in the United States, and I obviously can't speak as much to England.
- [27:07]
Ryan Reynolds
No, it's same. It's the same.
- [27:09]
Jon Stewart
The discomfort that people feel in their own lives is not being adequately represented, I think, by our government mechanisms. And that creates the fertile ground for demagogues.
- [27:22]
Ryan Reynolds
I mean, I think you're being generous to lawmakers. And I think it's not. It's not. It's not just an issue of them being Luddites or inexperienced. Don't forget that the social media companies are lobbying. They're lobbying, right? Yes, lobbying, of course, spending a huge amount of money to avoid regulation. They're hedging their bets. Right. There's a very good reason why the owner of one of the companies wants Trump to win rather than Harris. There's a very good reason for that. You know, the impact Facebook had in 2016, both in the referendum and in the presidential elections. They've got skin in the game.
- [27:59]
Jon Stewart
They're saying Trump is for free speech while he's literally threatening to jail Mark Zuckerberg. If Mark Zuckerberg acts in a way that Trump feels is election interference. I mean, it's. Cognitive dissonance is rampant in this new environment.
- [28:16]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah, that's one of my points about actually the reason why it's a bit more. Even more serious than you say is because there's a new generation of young people raised on TikTok and other forms of social media who only see one side of the story. They absorb things in an echo chamber. There is no challenge. And that's a big concern for all of us. And so one of the things we've got to do, and we're trying to do this in London, is trying to, at an early age, teach young people the skills to be more stoic, to be resilient when it comes to sort of brainwashing, to fact check, to have the sort of cognitive ability to check for themselves. But also we're trying to speak to the social media companies to. To make them explain their responsibility in relation to algorithms, how they monetize certain things. I'll give you an example. If you were to record a song today, a Bruce Springsteen song.
- [29:11]
Jon Stewart
Hey, hey, you go easy, buddy.
- [29:14]
Ryan Reynolds
You'll support me in second. So if you were to do a Springsteen song and breached copyright, it would come down like that, because there's a consequence of you breaching copyright. And Bruce Springsteen's got great lawyers and it'll come down, but there's no consequence of you doing social media. A lie, a disinformation, so forth. And that's why I think we've got to explain to the social media companies, look, you got to sort it out. If you don't sort it out, there's regulation coming, which won't be necessarily what you want.
- [29:44]
Jon Stewart
No, but let's take the flip side, though. So here's where I think government finds itself in trouble. And let's take the COVID pandemic as our example for that. So everything that you're saying is incredibly reasonable, but to do those types of things, you have to earn a certain trust from the public that you're being upfront and even handed. So let's go through Covid. You've got a lockdown. Everybody's got to stay in their houses. Meanwhile, oftentimes, government officials are having sex parties and cocktail parties and doing all these things. So immediately there's a disconnect. The people aren't going to trust it. Then they come out and say, you have to take this vaccine. If you don't take the. The vaccine is 100% safe and effective. Now, clearly nothing is. I mean, you watch, you know, pharma advertisements. I know they don't do them over there, but over here, man, there's a list of 20 things that could happen to you if you also want to cure your headache. And now that same entity is going to come in and say, okay, we're going to regulate and pull off disinformation and misinformation without having a very good track record of being able to discern what's misinformation and what's disinformation and of producing misinformation. So do you see the difficulty? This is the point I'm making about we can always point to social media and all those things and any new media form from the printing press on has been disruptive. What I'm saying is our governments have to also be self reflective and have to find a way. How do we attack that side of it?
- [31:23]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, firstly, nowhere in the globe will you ever get a government that's perfect. And we never have.
- [31:30]
Jon Stewart
No question, no question.
- [31:31]
Ryan Reynolds
And we can't allow best to be the enemy of the good. But if you think about a rectangle, if you think about on the one extreme, people accepted straight away the importance of the vaccine. On the other extreme, people no matter what, think it's a conspiracy. Covid doesn't exist. People aren't dying, the vaccines are evil. Those are two extremes in the rectangle. The vast majority of people are actually in the middle, right? They just want to be presented with the evidence and the science. And that's where experts come in, whether it's experts on climate change, experts on whether the earth is flat, experts on whether when you're on a toothache, you go to a dentist, experts on the vaccines. And I think you've got to basically write off this extreme in relation to the COVID deniers, conspiracy theorists. You've got to take those who are definitely on side and then educate the vast majority in the middle with people who are respected, trusted message carriers. So in London we had a real life problem which is this, which a lot of people in the middle, particularly people of color, for actually a good reason, didn't trust the pharma companies, right? Because in the country of origin they were used as guinea pigs.
- [32:41]
Jon Stewart
Hey, we did it here in America. I mean the Tuskegee experiments and all, all kinds of other things. Yeah, sure.
- [32:45]
Ryan Reynolds
So what we had to do, we realized there was an issue of the phrase was vaccine hesitancy, which is certain communities weren't taking the vaccine for actually, for actually genuinely good reasons, for historical reasons and all. So what we did, John, is I recognized that actually we need respected message carriers who they trusted to say, look, I've taken the vaccine, it's okay, or whatever. Whatever, whatever. And the same applies in relation to any issue. I think we as politicians have got the humility to realize we need other experts to come in and explain to the public.
- [33:15]
Jon Stewart
I guess the question is, how did the experts gain? Because here, exact same mechanism I think it was, and I think they would admit this now in retrospect, that the experts were not, were so concerned about that side of the rectangle that you're talking about, the kind of the crazies that couldn't have been convinced at all.
- [33:37]
Ryan Reynolds
You're not going to win them over.
- [33:38]
Jon Stewart
That they went overboard in the way that they talked about this. You know, they didn't educate in a manner that spoke to that middle that might have had valid concerns. They, they went too far. And so ultimately they ended up hurting the credibility of the expert class. Hurt. And listen, you know, Big Pharma has a long way to go to gain the trust of, you know, there's nobody that could look through the Sackler papers and what's been done with OxyContin and all those other things and think, oh, those guys are on our side. I think we have to recognize and speak honestly and openly to skepticism. Skepticism is not conspiratorial.
- [34:24]
Ryan Reynolds
There's nothing wrong with that. That's a good thing. I'd rather the age of deference, in my view, is gone. And so it should be. I'm all in favor of getting a second opinion in relation to a doctor or a mechanic or a dentist. But I make this point, whatever issue it is, if my car's broken down, I'm going to go to a mechanic. If I got a toothache, I'm going to go to a dentist. Of course, if I got a backache, I'm going to a doctor. And so I think my concern is politicians have tried to downplay the importance of experts. I'll give you an example in my country. So during the Brexit campaign, those of us who wanted to remain in the European Union said, look, speak to these business people, speak to these university lecturers, speak to those experts. They were telling you the benefits of the European Union. And there's a phrase used by a lead in Brexiter. He said, the public is fed up of experts. And so what happened was the public started ignoring the experts. And it was an emotional decision. It was emotion rather than rational. And I'm all in favor of experts because as I said to you, in our personal life, we use experts. Right? Right.
- [35:32]
Jon Stewart
But there's a certain humility to expertise that has to be right spot on.
- [35:35]
Ryan Reynolds
Spot on. I think we should welcome people asking for us. I always say to doctors and lawyers, you should welcome somebody asking for a second opinion. Because if you're doing your research and you've presented your case properly, you've got nothing to be scared of. Nothing wrong at all.
- [35:50]
Jon Stewart
You know, it's interesting. And when you ultimately come down to it. So one of the most emotional driving forces of Brexit was that idea of these people of color coming and changing the very fabric of England. Ultimately, removing yourself from Europe made it harder for so called European white people to come in. Many of them left. What are they replaced with the very immigrants that they feared in the first place.
- [36:18]
Ryan Reynolds
That's one of the ironies.
- [36:19]
Jon Stewart
It's all turning around now.
- [36:21]
Ryan Reynolds
That's one of the ironies of Brexit. Actually. Immigration in the UK has gone up. The immigration that's gone up is people of color.
- [36:30]
Jon Stewart
Right.
- [36:30]
Ryan Reynolds
And so you can imagine.
- [36:32]
Jon Stewart
Wait, what happened? What's going on?
- [36:35]
Ryan Reynolds
Quite.
- [36:35]
Jon Stewart
All right, we got to take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Allstate.
- [36:45]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [37:15]
Jon Stewart
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- [37:39]
Ryan Reynolds
Okay, that's the ad. You can go back to doing whatever.
- [37:41]
Jon Stewart
You were doing now. Okay, we're back. By the way, the fact that you guys do your elections in the amount of time that you do. God bless. I wish. I think that would take care of so many problems in this country in terms of a never ending campaign and election cycle that constantly provokes and pushes people's emotions. What did it take eight weeks for you guys?
- [38:11]
Ryan Reynolds
Six weeks. Six weeks has the issues.
- [38:14]
Jon Stewart
Oh, God.
- [38:15]
Ryan Reynolds
So I've got friends who of course are American politicians. As soon as they've won the election, the next day they start fundraising for the next one, right?
- [38:25]
Jon Stewart
Crazy.
- [38:25]
Ryan Reynolds
And that leads to short termism. But also, frankly speaking, you're obsessed by raising funds, right, rather than delivering your manifesto. How can you make a long term 10 year plan or 8 year plan if your obsession is raising funds for the next campaign? But also you know this better than I do. If you're always obsessed by poetry in a campaign, where's the pros of making the tough decisions in relation to building the foundations, making the plans?
- [38:49]
Jon Stewart
And we'll spend, I mean, billions and billions of dollars. I think I read somewhere that the entire election for labor was under $100 million.
- [39:00]
Ryan Reynolds
Oh no, no, you'll love this even more. So during that six week campaign I mentioned the six week short campaign. Each party, maximum, maximum for the six weeks can only spend 35 million pounds.
- [39:15]
Jon Stewart
And for those of you who are listening at home, a pound is equal to, I think a nickel. So 30 and it's six weeks and it's $35 million. And then you've got five years. You won't necessarily have five years, but you've got five years to govern, to actual.
- [39:33]
Ryan Reynolds
And that's the rhythm of our cycle. So that rhythm is really important because at the beginning of this interview you mentioned a tough decision made by the Prime Minister. He will have worked out. I've not spoken about this. He will have worked out the rhythm is made the tough decision now and the fruits will come in before the five years are up. Now if he was obsessed by the next election, you'd be thinking, oh my God, I can't do this because I may not be able to raise money for my election. Oh my God, the donors may not like it and so forth, which doesn't need to good long term governance. It's not conducive to making long term plans for the best interests of the country. And I think it's really important because listen, you know the Churchill saying as well as I do. I think Churchill once said that democracy is an awful thing, but it's the best we've got. That's right.
- [40:16]
Jon Stewart
They say the same about capitalism as well. Similar.
- [40:19]
Ryan Reynolds
The point being is that, look, it's not great, but actually we've got to try and make it work. Because I think the problem is if you're always obsessed by the election, what about the governing?
- [40:27]
Jon Stewart
And it really does open the door to these kinds of less stable movements. I mean, look, it really does seem like, you know, and we go back to kind of that post World War II order. You know, there is a movement afoot to replace what has been sort of the stable, what they call rules based order. And by the way, not perfect and oftentimes exploitative of resources from underdeveloped areas. And I don't think anybody's been able to fix that. But it really does look like at this point it's going to come down to what are the new axes of power if Trump wins, I imagine the axis of power goes through Russia, Hungary and the populist movement, whereas I think if not, it stays within kind of that it's who's going to carve up the world. Is it going to be China and Russia or is it going to be the US And Europe? Unfortunately, that seems to be where we're headed.
- [41:21]
Ryan Reynolds
So there's a great saying that an American saying from an American Democrat politician that I think it's really important that we remember this. All politics is local. Right? So most people in America on November 5th will be voting in relation to what's best for me and my family. And I understand that. But your elections in November are so much more important than that. The geopolitics of who is the president of the usa, you set the weather. You can either send out ripples of hope or you send out ripples of fear.
- [41:51]
Jon Stewart
Guess which one we're leaning.
- [41:54]
Ryan Reynolds
But it really matters.
- [41:55]
Jon Stewart
No, I know, I'm with you.
- [41:57]
Ryan Reynolds
If you're somebody in another part of the globe and you see that the president of the USA doesn't follow the rules, treats the women a certain way, treats people of color a certain way, has certain views about the second biggest religion in the world, you know, has certain view in relation to NATO destabilizing.
- [42:18]
Jon Stewart
It's, it's very much, it's disrupting what.
- [42:21]
Ryan Reynolds
Impact does it have on the rest of the globe? Right. And so it's really important. And so, you know, it does matter. And so of course, I appreciate, you know, your listeners and those in the USA will be making decisions based on what's, what's all policies local. But understand the consequence of this decision.
- [42:36]
Jon Stewart
You're asking us to think about other people, to think about somebody other than ourselves.
- [42:41]
Ryan Reynolds
What would Ukraine have done without the support of the usa? Right. In a parallel universe, understood. Where would nature be right now? And so it's really important to understand that actually all of us, all of us around the globe are watching with so much keen interest what happens on November 5th.
- [42:55]
Jon Stewart
Right. Well, we hope to have an answer for you by November 6th. But chances of that are not good.
- [43:01]
Ryan Reynolds
The question is, John will ever accept the result?
- [43:03]
Jon Stewart
Oh, God, don't even. All right. Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. I want to thank you so much for joining us today. Such an insightful conversation and I really appreciate you. Enjoy your time in New York and get home safe.
- [43:15]
Ryan Reynolds
Great. Take care, mate. See you soon.
- [43:20]
Jon Stewart
Siddique Khan, the mayor of London. Fabulous interesting ideas on how we, we balance that free speech and government. My, my faith in government being able to regulate these complex and modern digital technologies is not so high. But we are going to talk a little bit more about the economy from last week's episode. For those of you who remember, we were discussing inflation and the economy. We had on Jason Furman from Harvard, which he made very clear that's where he was from. And Kitty Richardson, often what happens when we have discussions about inflation or the economy with economists is another economizer. Other economists will contact us and suggest that, well, I've got something I could perhaps proffer that's a different explanation. And we had that happen with this one as well. So we are delighted to welcome back Stephanie Kelton, economics professor at Stony Brook University, author of the Deficit Myth. One of the things we were talking about, Stephanie, was that these larger deficits might be inflationary because, you know, obviously people are paying higher rates for their mortgages and things like that. And also if the government is paying a lot of money on interest on the debt, it may not have the resources to do the kind of stimulus that would maybe be more helpful for individuals, whether it be demand side or anything else. But you've got a very different approach to this. So talk to me.
- [44:53]
Sadiq Khan
So there has been for a very long time this idea that when the government increases spending or cuts taxes and the deficit increases, that it leaves you with fewer resources, like you're less able to respond to a crisis in the future. And we've heard that over and over again. And I'll just give you an example. When the Republicans passed their tax cuts in 2017, right?
- [45:18]
Jon Stewart
1.7 trillion.
- [45:19]
Sadiq Khan
It's in that range of $2 trillion. So, you know, people like Larry Summers, for example, did not like the idea of the Republicans pushing these tax cuts through. I didn't like it. But when Larry was arguing against the Republican tax cuts, he said, and I'm going to quote him, okay, so this is exactly what he said. He said, if the Republicans are successful in pushing these tax cuts cuts through, we are going to be living, he said, on a shoestring for decades to come because of the increases in the deficit. Whoa. And Larry has warned, God help us if they get away with this. There isn't going to be money. If a crisis comes, we're really up the creek because we're living on a shoestring. And lo and behold, a crisis comes. Only a couple of years later, Covid is at our doorstep. And do we find ourselves without the fiscal firepower? There's no money. The cupboards are bare. No, of course not.
- [46:18]
Jon Stewart
Well, to be fair to Summers, he was against the amount of money that the government gave to the American people during the COVID crisis too. So he was consistently against everything and consistently wrong.
- [46:30]
Sadiq Khan
I mean, you couldn't have been more wrong than to say that because of the tax cuts and the increases in the deficit, the government was going to be unable, would not have the resources.
- [46:40]
Jon Stewart
To respond to a crisis because we can make money.
- [46:43]
Sadiq Khan
And we did. Congress authorized bill after bill, fiscal package after fiscal package. 2.2 trillion, 900 billion, 1.9 trillion, 5 trillion in the span of 12 months, John. And for exactly the reason you just said. Because Congress has this thing called the power of the purse. They get to spend money into existence. There is no running out of money. What you can run out of are things to buy. And that's where information.
- [47:10]
Ryan Reynolds
Or political will.
- [47:11]
Sadiq Khan
Yeah, or political will, which is what we didn't have. And I could also talk about Larry there as well. What we didn't have in 2008, we had all the firepower that we needed.
- [47:23]
Jon Stewart
That made me so angry, we chose.
- [47:25]
Sadiq Khan
Not to use it because politically, people like David Axelrod and Larry Summers were advising Barack Obama and saying anything with a T, you cannot say trillion. Right.
- [47:39]
Jon Stewart
But Stephanie, there must be a limit to what the government can do. Yes. Like if we got to a certain point, wouldn't it just be devaluing of currency?
- [47:49]
Sadiq Khan
That's why I said a few seconds ago that you can't run out of money, but you can run out of things to buy. So inflation was always the thing that we should have been preoccupied with, not the number that pops out of the budget box. If it's a trillion or a trillion and a half or whatever the size of the deficit, you can have very large deficits and de minimis inflation, but you could also have fairly small deficits and an inflation spike. So inflation is the thing to watch out for. Can Congress spend too much? Sure they can. Instead of a $1,400 check, they could have sent 14,000 or 140,000.
- [48:25]
Jon Stewart
But the real problem, Stephanie, the thing that I kept trying to get to with Jason Furman was the idea of the efficiency of capital that it seemed like our experience in 2008 and the experience with the Trump tax cuts and the experience then with the stimulus money that was sent out by the government shows that money from the government delivered at the demand level, like the stimulus, rather than the tax cuts, is a much more efficient use of government capital. It stimulates much more growth, much more demand, much more gdp. So why don't we do that more often? We could spend less, get more pop, keep people in their homes. Yet almost overwhelmingly politically, stimulus goes to the highest and the corporate level.
- [49:18]
Sadiq Khan
Okay, because a couple of things. One is that when you think about macroeconomic policy and you have like two policy levers, right? One is monetary policy. That's what the Fed does. And the other is fiscal policy. That's what Congress does. So we have for the past 50 years or so, just relied disproportionately on the central bank, on the Fed. It's like your job is to give us a good economy, you give us full employment, you give us price stability, and Congress will just worry about, like, managing the budget and trying to bring down deficits and whatever. So fiscal policy, which you just described work works really, really well, has been like the thing that we put on the wall and we put the thing above it that says, you know, in emergency break glass, we don't use it except in an emergency.
- [50:06]
Jon Stewart
So monetary policy is more on that supply side. Fiscal is more on the demand side. We don't use it as much.
- [50:11]
Sadiq Khan
Well, Republicans will use fiscal because they always do tax cuts because it's in their DNA. So any chance they get, they will come through and pass tax cuts. The Bush tax cuts, the Trump tax cuts and so forth. Reagan.
- [50:23]
Jon Stewart
But even those go to our supply side generally. I mean, they go to the highest.
- [50:28]
Sadiq Khan
Exactly. So then it becomes like, how are they structured and who benefits? So take the Trump tax cuts. If you look at the personal tax cuts, it is true that everybody across the income distribution got a little something from the Trump tax cuts. But it is very true that the people at the tippy top, those in the 1%, got the lion's share. So some 83% of the benefits went to folks in the top 1% of the income.
- [50:53]
Jon Stewart
And corporations got like a 30% tax cut. They went from 35% to 21%.
- [50:58]
Sadiq Khan
Yeah. And then you use the word stimulus, which you asked about earlier, and you have to at some point kind of shake your head and go, why are we calling it Stimulus when it doesn't actually stimulate anything. I mean, we've been running the experiment for 50 years. The results are in. We have the data. It doesn't work. There's a recent study out of the London School of Economics where a team of researchers looked at the last 50 years. They looked at the data, they looked across countries, and they found that the supply side policies of the kind we've just been talking about have benefited exactly one constituency, and it is the very rich.
- [51:34]
Jon Stewart
Right. Stephanie, would you say so to put a bow on it and thank you for this, this is really helpful.
- [51:41]
Sadiq Khan
Sure.
- [51:42]
Jon Stewart
At what level would you say the debt or the yearly deficits become an issue? Like, listen, Trump is out there, like, let's just use crypto to pay down the debt. Like now it's just about a shell game of moving magic around. But what, you know, and Krugman would say, trillion dollar coin, like, does it make sense to just create something to go in there to lessen our interest payments? What's, what do we do then with that debt and with those yearly deficits?
- [52:10]
Sadiq Khan
John, the first thing I would say is that we should ask ourselves, why are we issuing treasuries in the first place? Like, why do we do that? People say the government has to borrow to cover the shortfall, the finance deficits and all that. I don't think that's the correct way to describe what the government is doing. You know, the government is paying contractors. Think of defense contractors.
- [52:33]
Jon Stewart
They're paying benefits, 400 billion a year.
- [52:35]
Sadiq Khan
Paying people on Social Security, they're paying federal workers. Everybody gets paid in dollars. Government makes its payments and then it collects some tax. So let's say this fiscal year, the government's going to spend around $7 trillion. It's going to collect back around $5 trillion. We call that the government deficit. Right. Because they're spending more than they're collecting back in revenue. So what's really happening. What's really happening is they're putting $2 trillion into the economy. Their deficit becomes the source is stimulus.
- [53:09]
Jon Stewart
Yeah.
- [53:09]
Sadiq Khan
Well, it may or may not stimulate very much, but it is $2 trillion that goes into somebody else's pocket. You could be done right there. You could leave people holding that $2 trillion and say, okay, the government added $2 trillion. But we don't do that. What we do is we match the deficit each year by having the treasury issue bills, notes and bonds. And when they do that, we call it borrowing. And we say they're driving up the debt. All they're doing is Allowing people to trade in some of the dollars the government has spent into their hands for a different kind of dollar called a Treasury security.
- [53:48]
Jon Stewart
Right.
- [53:49]
Sadiq Khan
Those are.
- [53:49]
Jon Stewart
So you're saying we could do this without ever selling our debt. You're saying we can run these deficits and run this debt without allowing the Chinese government or somebody else to come in and buy up Treasuries and hold our debt, and then we wouldn't have to make interest payments to those entities.
- [54:08]
Sadiq Khan
You got it. And if you. Stephanie, John, look, you know, who wouldn't want to do it? Look, the beneficiaries of this are the people who get that sweet, sweet, sweet nectar that you're talking about, which is investment capital. The interest income. It's interest income. It's like people talk about entitlement programs and all this sort of stuff, and they wring their hand, say, oh, this is terrible. We have this entitlement problem. This is the biggest, most regressive entitlement program that we have. It goes exclusively to people who already have money in proportion to how much they already have. It is a subsidy largely for the wealthy.
- [54:50]
Jon Stewart
It's unbelievable. It's. It's this idea you're almost like saying, like, you could buy a house without a mortgage. Like, that's kind of what we're talking about. But what would. What would then hold those deficits in the real world if somebody isn't holding that debt?
- [55:08]
Sadiq Khan
Well, okay, this is the other really strange thing, which is that if you have a dollar in your wallet right now and you look at it, it says, federal Reserve note. That is a liability of the Federal Reserve, which is part of government. We don't call those debt. We don't say, I'm walking around with government debt in my pocket. We don't put it up on a big debt clock and try to terrorize the population by saying, you know, all of this is part of the national debt.
- [55:34]
Jon Stewart
We do do a big debt clock.
- [55:35]
Sadiq Khan
To terrorize the population, but that's because we're keeping track of the treasuries, the bills, the notes and the bonds. Those get called the government debt. They're just as much debt as the dollar bill in your pocket. But we label one the national debt, and we don't call the other one the national debt. All of the dollars that are, you know, banks have at the Federal Reserve are kept in accounts called reserve accounts at the Fed. The Fed pays interest on those. And the Financial Times had a piece up just a few days ago that said, are you ready for this number, John? The Financial Times said that because of the interest rate hikes, the Federal Reserve has been paying out interest on those deposits that the banks keep at the Fed. $1.1 trillion to the banks. Just since the Fed started raising interest. It's just interest paid on deposits. It's cash in their accounts.
- [56:30]
Jon Stewart
And that's a trillion dollars that we are not able to use for investment or infrastructure or standard of living. None of that stuff from the government. That's all just to enrich the banks, to hold our treasuries.
- [56:47]
Sadiq Khan
But the point is to just recognize that the way we describe things, right, that we call treasuries the national debt, but we don't call reserve balances the national debt. We don't call the dollars in our wallet the national debt. They're all liabilities of government. And I think what we really have is just, you know, a failure to communicate properly and.
- [57:06]
Jon Stewart
But you do believe there is some limit to all this?
- [57:09]
Sadiq Khan
Sure. As I keep saying, coming back to inflation is the limit. You cannot. Yeah. You cannot just take out the money bazooka and go wild and expect no consequences. Your inflation is the thing you have to manage and you have to do it carefully.
- [57:23]
Jon Stewart
Stephanie Kelton, thank you for coming on and offering those explanations. And thank you for doing it in an accessible way that allowed me to understand it more clearly without making me feel like the dumbest person in the universe, which sometimes happens. Stephanie Kelton, thank you so much. Economics professor, Stony Brook University, author of the Deficit Myth. Fabulous. Lots of show. I hope you guys enjoyed it today. It was very dense. We'll have one next week. Maybe we'll take our time, maybe relax. Maybe we'll enjoy ourselves. Thanks again as always. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mometovic, video editor and engineer Rob Vitolo, Audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer Gillian Speier and the executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Thanks so much. We'll see you guys next time. The weekly show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. This mountain has its own way of.
- [58:30]
Ryan Reynolds
Sorting out who is worthy.
- [58:32]
Jon Stewart
Now streaming on Paramount plus. Your challenge is to reach the summit. It's a high altitude game.
- [58:40]
Sadiq Khan
What will it take?
- [58:41]
Jon Stewart
Do you want to get the knife.
- [58:42]
Ryan Reynolds
Out of my back to reach the top? There is a strategy going in. We can see. Steal someone's money by voting someone out.
- [58:49]
Jon Stewart
No one said it's going to be easy. The Summit new series now streaming on.
- [58:53]
Sadiq Khan
Paramount + all new episodes CBS Wednesday 9:38, 30 Central.
- [58:58]
Jon Stewart
Now streaming on Paramount.
- [59:00]
Sadiq Khan
You do have a lot going on.
- [59:02]
Jon Stewart
I'm fine.
- [59:03]
Sadiq Khan
You just lost your dad. You got a brand new baby, an unemployed wife. You got no money.
- [59:08]
Jon Stewart
Okay, okay.
- [59:09]
Sadiq Khan
From the brains behind the Big Bang theory. And young Sheldon. Cut the baby down. You want to fool around?
- [59:16]
Jon Stewart
To Mandy and Georgie and their new home.
- [59:18]
Sadiq Khan
Love you.
- [59:19]
Jon Stewart
Love you, too. Georgie and Mandy's first marriage. New series now streaming on paramount.
- [59:25]
Sadiq Khan
New episodes, CBS, Thursday, 87 Central.
- [59:32]
Jon Stewart
Paramount podcasts.