← The "What is Money?" Show
The "What is Money?" Show
Why the Most Dangerous Weapon Ever Built Has No Off Switch w/ Toufi Saliba
01:35:41
What does it mean to build a species that outlives you? In this conversation, Robert Breedlove sits down with Toufi Saliba — entrepreneur, AI pioneer, co-author of the TODA/IP protocol, and CEO of HyperCycle Toufi brings decades of experience at the intersection of AI, cryptography, decentralization, and incentive design to a wide-ranging discussion on the nature of intelligence, and why the race for centralized AGI control may already be lost — in the best possible way.
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- [00:00]
Tufi Saliba
This is different than any other thing that we've ever created in the entire history of our civilization. We're not creating another tool. This thing will be able to outlive us. This thing can travel at the speed of light. We cannot. So this thing can do a lot of great things. We don't really need to get to Mars via all of those rovers, whatnot. You can actually run a certain computation on Mars by running laser beams, and that means you're traveling at light speed. So it can transport itself at light speed. It can convert the sun into a computer. In the history of entire planet Earth, we don't know any speed species that was given the chance to create another species that can outlive it. This is our chance. It's happening right now as we speak. Will they use it against people? Of course. I poked Mark Zuckerberg seven years ago now. They said, will Mark Zuckerberg give his daughters decentralized pills? And what I meant by that, they're actually pills you swallow every Friday. They just go to charge all the computer that you've got in you. Decentralized pills, they give control to one entity to control whoever takes those pills versus decentralized pills. They're built by 1,000 different companies in the governance of all around 1,000 different companies. There's one that it's only Facebook. Even if he owns Facebook, he wouldn't give his daughters the Facebook bills if it's only controlled by Facebook. Why am I telling you this?
- [01:26]
Robert Breedlove
Tufi Saliba, thank you for joining us.
- [01:29]
Tufi Saliba
Thanks for having me.
- [01:31]
Robert Breedlove
Yeah. So a little bit about this podcast. You may or may not know, we started as the what is Money? Show and over time became known as the Whim Podcast. The acronym what is Money Whim. However, when we told people the name of the podcast, they were often like, oh, so it's a finance podcast. We're like, actually not. We talk about everything but finance. It's much more of a philosophy podcast. We go into a lot of rabbit holes. It's very cerebral. So we did a soft rebrand from the what is Money? Show to the Whim Podcast or the Whim Show, a podcast about wisdom, intelligence and meaning. And so we threw another Whim acronym in there to sort of point towards what we actually talk about. And under that, I intelligence is clearly a big one. Is artificial intelligence probably the biggest one in the world today, here in early 2026. This is a field that you are intimately, deeply knowledgeable in. So before we start diving into some more specific questions, maybe you could just tell us a little bit about yourself, your backstory and how you got into artificial intelligence.
- [02:42]
Tufi Saliba
Certainly, I think it goes back to 2002. I had my first exit in AI, a project that I was working on. And at the time if you were to walk around town and say that you're an AI, you're not getting laid. So it's like it wasn't that much fun. So the AI that I've built at the time was pattern recognition, anomaly detection. And at the time when thinking it was newly graduate and thinking that the banks are the good guys, you got to help them out to prevent from all of the money laundering, terrorist financing, you actually think they are the good guys, you want to help them out. So you kind of build all of those tools and, and then you, you know, fast forward. I've had a good exit, so I can complain. But then when you look at what they do with it, you start thinking like what they call it the, you know, false positive. When they think that someone maybe and then you just go block that person, block their account and all of these, these things and, and, and, and it's all math. They do it not just for a few people. So you know, it kind of gets you to start thinking that it's not just about technology. You're good at technology provided to folks, but if they're using it for bad, maybe you need to think twice. Which led to a lot of desire and love to cryptography. And with that, I recall in 2004, through a couple years later, having conversation with somebody who was still a scholar at the time, I mean Gonzale later on, he kind of, he has some crypto project whatnot. I fast forward throughout the years I've had dabbling in and out. And when you start thinking that there's a lot of movements in the world towards the bitcoin. And I realized that the next thing that people will are not paying attention to is the governance of AI. And that was in 2013. Instead of talking about something called AI decentralized, a lot of people thought I'm crazy. Many scientists are like, what are you talking about? AI decentralized? That does not exist. I'm like, because it doesn't exist. I want to talk about it. I'm going to tell you what I mean by that. And then a few years later, to acm, the association of Computer Machinery, the number one computer science in the world, the issuance of the Turing Award, they got me to come in and present to all the board members and I got voted 11 out of 11 yes, go ahead and tell the world about the AI decentralized, but don't make it like this climate change thing. It's real science. Just get the people they can help out and don't blast it into those that they just going to walk around town training. So the threat that I talked about then, which I don't believe that it exists anymore today, is that if we don't do anything about it, if we did not do anything about it since 2016, a single entity will get control over what folks would call the AGI, which is the next step of things. And that single entity would be, no matter how good they think they are, I call the attack from within. What they think is ethical is not necessarily what you think is ethical. And if they control this thing that is called AGI, which is the common, I should say that the actual understanding of AGI, a lot of people have different definition, but the common definition that we went by is that you have this machine that is as intelligent as all humanity combined. So if you ask it what does it take to get you to be 10 times smarter? It answers you that it needs time and resources, doesn't need any human. So we call that point AGI, which means that if it says 10 days, you ask the same question after 10 days, 10 days and let's say trillion dollars, give it 10 days and trillion dollars, you come and ask it the same question and then it's probably going to be nine days and less than a trillion and so on so forth. So in a very short period of time, you're able to have something that is many, many times more intelligent than all humanity combined and intelligence equal to power. And if you control it, that entity controls it, can be, it can be disastrous of humanity. So long before what others they talk about that, oh, AI is going to come and fight us long before that is a single entity controlling this AI. That can be a lot more devastating. So, you know, got the awareness around, got to the point where we have a lot of folks who started working on it, and we got to the point where we feel like there's a solution. And that solution is making sure that everyone goes in it, because there's no off button. Some people, they say like unplug it, there's no such thing as unplugged, that's not an option. But if you get everyone to work on it, I call the Internet of AI. So it's no longer a single entity will get to AGI. It would be combination of many different AIs, including your own AI and everyone's AI that is part of that global brain or the Internet of AI. And it's a lot safer world to get to. And I stopped talking about decentralized and I start talking about the Internet of AI. And I've noticed a lot of adoption. And at the same time I authored something called TODA ip, which is an Internet communication protocol that enabled people to communicate without depending on a third party. But that wasn't really liked politically. It's like you're telling the bankers, the blockchainers and the governments that you're no longer needed. So they tell you, oh wow, it's great, but behind your back they're like, get out of the way here. We don't want you to exist. So, so that changed when we moved all of this research and work towards the Internet of AI where there is no one there. And all of those three that used to be my enemies, now they're all like best friends. They're like, oh, how can we get into the Internet of AI? And we call that Hypercycle. Some people, they call it Internet of AI, but it's the same thing. Effectively with Hypercycle, we, we enable folks to have this thing that is called Node factory, so you can produce nodes. And if you produce those nodes and your neighbor produces those nodes, the nodes that they are being produced, whether the Chinese government use it or US government, they actually follow math, physics and proofs and they don't really rely on a third party. I do not like third party. The moment you depend on a third party is the moment you get an attack. So that's, that's what we started about a couple of years ago with Hypercycle and we currently have about 1783 precisely today entities that they have those node factors in producing them. And yeah, I started seeing the world from a different view and getting people that they are considered centralized. Like Google, I see it as a node. Microsoft is another node. Chinese government is a node. I don't really need to look at them as the enemy, look at them as a node into this Internet of AI and they started liking it better. That took off quite nicely. And now for the very first time, we have some partnership with dozen other companies that they're pushing out an open source, a product that has to do with the people. Because everything that I've told you, it's all like machine to machine. The communication protocol that we use can only work if one machine is demanding work from another machine. It says, who's in that picture? I don't know who's in that picture, let's say it's doing facial recognition and the other machine says this is Robert Read Love. Okay, so it couldn't guess who that person is, but the other one had better computations able to guess. How can they help each other? That's what we provide. Those nodes, they're able to get them in the fractions of a second able to demand that compute and receive it. If there's a human on each side, it won't work because a human cannot produce a proof of work that was demanded on the other side. It has to be a machine that is actually doing the work to provide that the proof of work is necessary for whatever this machine sent cryptographically to that one, which could be 0.001 cent or one Satoshi or whatnot. Effectively, that's something that is essential in this to work. And it needs to be open. So it's not intranet, it's not dependent on Ethereum, because if it's dependent on Ethereum, then it's not an intran. Not the Internet, it's intranet. You see, if it's. But if it's on the Internet itself, then it's actual Internet of AI. So yeah, so that's how we got here. And it's super exciting to see a lot of intersections of what you do because when they told you about you, I looked you up of course, and started looking about the things. And I can see that you guys are also misunderstood because you try to be not political at all, but then the politicians behind your back, they kind of place you somewhere. It's like you're like, I don't even political, but they still put you somewhere because you're not on, you know, their side whatnot. And I'm not political either. So I work with everyone. Blue, red. I was in national assembly in Korea and man, like these guys, they do things to each other. Not, not cool, but anyway.
- [12:42]
Robert Breedlove
So yeah, I think, you know, male YouTubers that support freedom and sovereignty and critical thinking are now labeled as terrorists and right wingers. Yeah, yeah. So of course we get the political labels put on us.
- [12:58]
Tufi Saliba
Crazy.
- [12:58]
Robert Breedlove
In general, I think if we lose
- [13:00]
Tufi Saliba
sovereignty, we don't have that future people, they think that our civilization can function without the sovereignty or without the freedom or that there is no parallel universe that it will work.
- [13:13]
Robert Breedlove
No, it's literally the definition of civilization. Right. Like, to have a civilized social order is to be able to act with the expectation that you will not be subjected to force or coercion. And that's what politics is all about. It's the force and the coercion. So we're very anti politics over here for sure. What I want to ask you because I feel like these AI conversations can very quickly get away from us if we don't try to root ourselves in some sound, mutually agreed upon definitions. And I think the obvious and most important one is just defining intelligence itself. When we say that, you know, the AGI is going to become 10 times more intelligent than the whole of the human race combined, or whatever the factor may be, what does that mean? What are we actually saying? So my question is pretty straightforward. What is the definition of intelligence?
- [14:10]
Tufi Saliba
I'm so glad you asked us because you would notice that there's a lot of people fighting the term AGI itself. And when you dig deep into why they're fighting it, like Yann Lukun, Yannlo Kun, the head of AI, the Facebook that's now meta whatnot, he detests the word AGI and he thinks that it's not going to happen because his definition word AGI, where you're getting to the same level of human intelligence and he sees that we're very far off from that. There's not even a blueprint. Last year he was in Davos, I was in Davos last year too, and he was saying there's not even a blueprint. And like I agree with him, there is no blueprint. But getting to the, the, the plane to fly better than the bird, faster, more stronger, doesn't even have the same capability the bird has. It doesn't, but it's capable of doing more and being more resilient whatnot. So, so if, if, if AGI would mean that it's capable of self evolving itself without having to depend on any Homo sapien, then we've got something that we can all agree that that thing is intelligent if it's capable of self evolving itself. If you're able to ask any researcher to do any work, but you're able to ask this thing that is called AGI to do the same work and is able to do it faster, then you'd agree that this thing has some intelligence. So if you were to go to those basis and simplifying it to that level, then we can agree that we're very close to have something that it's going to be capable of doing better than all humanity combined. There's always going to be somebody who's going to say, yeah, but my nephew is able to produce something and that machine cannot do what that specific thing that, that Nephew does. Okay, yes, I agree. We can. The machine cannot do what everything. But we're getting there. That, that you're able to have almost anything that any human can do that is can to do it faster. If it can do that same thing faster, okay, then we've got to exceed that intelligence. So the word even intelligence, even AI, kept changing the bar, keep changing people that used to refer to calculator as AI. But then it's like, oh, well, we understand how it works and it's no longer AI and it's like machine learning. We understand how machine learning and then how neural network works. It's just an algorithm. Okay, well, you know, you can call it whatever. If we were to simplify things, are we intelligent? Yes or no? If we're not, then there's not even an AI. But if we are intelligent, and this thing that we refer to it as AI, that's not even supposed to be called AI, maybe synthetic intelligence, even better term, you know, so we can agree to some term and saying that, okay, this is what we mean by intelligence or being virus intelligence. And I think that's important to get a lot of the conversations happening between the remains of us, the homo sapiens, who kind of agree on things. Because, you know, we have this thing that you cannot get 10 people in the room to agree on the same thing. So that's one of the weaknesses which can be used as strikes in, in that Internet of AI. Imagine the Internet of AI is the global brain. Given that they cannot agree on a single thing, then it's not going to agree to eradicate people with a beard. Because if you control the entire AI in the world and it has so much more intelligence, again, based on that same definition, it doesn't matter what you would ask a human capable of doing it 10,000 times faster, it's able to reason thousand times faster. If we just go by faster, that that is more intelligence able to do the same thing, but faster. Same thing, but faster. So you're able to run a lot of simulations. You're able to say, what is the best way to eliminate people with beard? Because in my culture, I don't like beards. So what's ethical to you is not necessarily ethical to the rest of the world. And you end up doing certain things that can be very dangerous. And I really, I'm glad we're not going in that direction. No matter what anyone would try today, we already forked. And that fork is too late for them to catch on. It's much more resilient, right now to have all of these entities to be part of that whole brain, I love it.
- [18:53]
Eric
He's talking about things in a way I can understand being a bitcoiner. So many parallels.
- [19:00]
Robert Breedlove
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- [20:26]
Tufi Saliba
Yeah, no, 100%. I think Bitcoin is maybe nine years ago. I was talking about it once in South Korea, in Busan, and I got people in the room to raise a hand to talk to them about an organism. I said if we were to build a machine, this organism that can defend itself, that nobody owns it, that can grow, can self evolve, that can pay people, can incentivize people, all of these things and no one can shut it down. Even nation states cannot shut it down. All these things, would you guys think that that is AI? And everybody's like yes, raise your hand. Yes. I'm like okay, keep your hands up. If I give you a name of that machine and then as soon as I said there is a machine that satisfies everything that I told you and it's called bitcoin, everybody's like oh no, it's just a ledger, whatever. It's just you give certain definitions, something everybody agrees with you. But then as soon as you give Them some name. So I really think that if this world were to have certain agentic capability, if we were to build something that would outlive us, it's gonna have a brain, it needs a heart. And that heart probably pumping. The pumping is much slower than the brain. The analogy that I gave at the time, think about it, that bitcoin is the heart of that organism. And a lot of people start criticizing me, started calling me maximalist whatnot, and now you're part of this religion. I'm trying to give a vision of a world that can function without having to depend on the negativity that you have. Homo sapien. If we can create this thing that can outlive us, might as well do it to be better than us. Otherwise why are we going to do something that it's inferior to us, that will outlive us? It's going to outlive us anyways. If anybody thinks that this AI thing is just another tool, that's another thing that I probably agree with Roman. This is different than any other thing that we've ever created in the entire history of our civilization. We're not creating another tool. This thing will be able to outlive us. The thing can travel at the speed of light. We cannot. So this thing can do a lot of great things. We don't really need to get to Mars via all of those rovers, whatnot. You can actually run a certain computation on Mars. Mars. And by running laser beams, and that means you're traveling at light speed. So it can transport itself at light speed. It can convert the sun into a computer. The sun itself can be the largest computer. You don't really need Nvidia. So yeah, all of those things are not that far off from now. I think if you guys have children, your children are going to see those. You're probably going to see them. And if we're creating as a civilization, in the history of a human, in the history of entire planet Earth, we don't know any species that was given the chance to create another species that can outlive it. This is our chance. It's happening right now as we speak. What are the chances?
- [23:45]
Robert Breedlove
Yeah, it's fascinating as you were posing that question to the audience that you mentioned, you know, the answer to bit was ultimately bitcoin. The answer equally could have been the Internet.
- [23:58]
Tufi Saliba
Right.
- [23:58]
Robert Breedlove
That it also is this thing that grows. No one owns it.
- [24:02]
Tufi Saliba
The Internet are the veins. If we were to look at organism in the heart, in the brain, it's veins.
- [24:08]
Robert Breedlove
Well, here's what I Wanted to. And again, we might be pressing the metaphor here, but I don't think many people would disagree that the Internet is some form of collective mind, right? Like we've wired all the computers together. You know, there's minds behind the computer, there's a lot of data technologies performing calculations faster than we can. So, you know, by your definition of intelligence earlier, those are forms of intelligence, right? A spreadsheet that can do math faster than me as a form of intelligence. So we've wired all that together and then we get the distributed cognition of the marketplace on, you know, digital steroids or whatever you want to call this. And we've had this explosion in the creation of information that's all Internet, that's all pre Bitcoin, Right. It's ongoing, obviously, but it was happening before Bitcoin. Then Bitcoin comes on the scene. And I think maybe where I think the metaphor would go there is that it does act like the beating heart of that collective mind. Because Bitcoin is doing this thing right? It's cranking out a block every 10 minutes. That is the heartbeat or the frequency. It also sets ethical boundaries in a way, like it makes private property really hard to steal. So therefore people need to interact with one another on a consensual basis rather than the, rather than a coercive basis where the incentives are structured. So there is this kind of, you know, heartbeat aspect to it, there's an ethical aspect to it. And so, yeah, I don't know, are we. Yeah, it's like, and it's, it comes down to like, well, what is a lot, where do you draw the line between living and non living systems? Right. Is the global hive mind, is that an organism? I don't know, maybe depending on your definition. But it does seem to have a heart and a mind.
- [25:53]
Tufi Saliba
Sure. But if we stop everything today, it's not capable to outlive us. But if you and I were to talk a year from now, maybe two, we're crossing that chasm as we speak. In about a year from now, even if the entire population, let's say there's something in the air, all humanity, they don't live anymore. Whatever. What you've left in this saying, any part of your DNA that is left, which is through all your videos, all your stuff that you did, any, any email that you left in there, that's part of that organism that will outlive us and live forever. So because of that, this new thing, when you asked me earlier, what do you do with the hyper cycle, one of the things that we did that touches a human, it's, it's called Mosaic. It's a free thing that we were doing with dozen other companies. It's kind of like a companion that protects people while they're using all the AIs. Because here's the thing, Robert, you probably don't know that as you use the AI, the AI is actually learning from you more than you're learning from it. You might think, oh, look at that, it gave me all of these things. It's learning from you more than you are learning from it during that same time. That learning that you're emitting. Imagine you have a tool that is giving you that as well. We already know that you cannot block it like you have ad blockers, okay? But if part of that has gone to Google, the other part to Microsoft, other part Facebook. But imagine there's a tool that's getting you to keep all of that to yourself as well. That thing that you keep to yourself becomes an agent called like a hybrid agent. Like, you know, part of you, part of the AI. Because you can run AI on this thing and it becomes acting. Well, many people, they call it like digital twin or whatnot, but those are like pieces of it. But if you've got everything that is in there, that thing becomes your agent. That agent, you can have babies of that agent. That agent can be part of that entire brain. So you can own it. And if you own it and it's doing work on your behalf, you own and you, you benefit from the wealth creation that it does, you benefit from everything that it's doing, and so on, so forth. So I think that's extremely important thing to do it for, for free, for every breathing human being. So we felt that a lot of, believe me, a lot of the stakeholders, they're like, oh, you got to do it for money, you're here for profit. I'm like, yeah, you know, the company's doing well, but might as well. We do something along with many other companies and we push it out to the world, kind of like Mozilla or whatnot. But it has a self sustainable component into it. So let's see how that goes. So that's something that preserves that self sovereignty while everyone's trying to snatch pieces of your brain, people to own their brain.
- [28:49]
Eric
Is, is AI becoming an extension of our consciousness? Because as I'm listening to this, it seems that the line of where our consciousness starts and stops is kind of blurry, right?
- [29:02]
Tufi Saliba
It is, it's becoming an extension. And I think we're entering the hybrid phase and we'll probably be in that hybrid phase for a while. And while we are in the hybrid phase, I think it would be cool if people maintain their, you know, their brain, they own their brain, so they don't dissipate that easily. Like, imagine you don't remember, but someone else remembers that about you, which is currently the case. Like right now, you might have something in that email, something in this WhatsApp, something in here, something there. But it's also the way you would approach and work on a. On a topic is now being dissipated to Google. So they're able to in Microsoft and Facebook, but they all have pieces. Imagine you have the entirety. So I think that that hybrid would continue to belong to the people, and that is extremely powerful because if it belongs to you in Microsoft, they want to run your version, they know that you have in your possession a better version than theirs, which means they'd rather pay yours than having to depend on whatever they accumulated in there. And so you compete against yourself that you've admitted to them, but at least you win because you've got everything, you've got the entirety. So, yeah, we're absolutely entering that hybrid and we're probably going to be. According to Kurzweil I saw days ago, I think he still expected going to be maybe four or five years in that hybrid. So his prediction has been accurate. 83% of his AI predictions have been accurate throughout life. You know, Raker as well. So, yeah, so I think.
- [31:03]
Eric
Sorry, I was just going to say you seem very optimistic. We just had Dr. Roman on the show and he was very pessimistic in some ways. He had some concerns that it seems you don't share.
- [31:16]
Tufi Saliba
So I definitely don't share most of his concerns, but I do share some. And, and I do think that he, he's thinking so far off without considering certain aspects that they will happen along the way. If he were to know the core, for example, bitcoin. Bitcoin is not just a technology, it's technology and people combined. If you were to copy Bitcoin, you'll end up with the shitcoin, or you just have a copy. In order to have Bitcoin to be Bitcoin, it is the people and the bitcoin together that they form the btc. Okay. The people that believe that the BTC is worth something every day is what makes it part of the whole thing. So it's a hybrid. It's kind of like a hybrid system.
- [32:12]
Robert Breedlove
Yeah, they call it the social layer. And the protocol layer, typically in Bitcoin.
- [32:17]
Tufi Saliba
Yeah. And they're both necessary for the whole to continue to have the value that it has. It's also for kids. If tomorrow magically you're able to get everyone, everyone and be going to believe that it's, you know, some other shitcoin is worth or what it is, it would be that other one. But how can you do everyone to believe it's impossible. It's like that's how resilient this thing is. And. And the thing is, to make more of it, you have to consume certain things based on the laws of physics. You cannot break though. So someone like Roman would, would think like very far off of like what is down the road, what that can do to people. But he doesn't think that along the way there are moves like Bitcoin that they're happening in the AI world, that they would ensure the sovereignty of our children. We're not done. Like, we're creating the smart thing and we're going to continue creating things to be better for our children. It's not going to be that dystopian thing that he's talking about. It is going to replace us. I give him this, like, one day this thing going to outlive us. On a biological thing. We are not going to exist in this biological. It's impossible to think that we are going to exist forever. Homo sapiens been around for 200,000 years. Humanity altogether 500,000 years. Life of Earth is like 5 billion years. So it's like so tiny. We're like, you know, we're like, if the entire life of Earth is one year, we're in the last few minutes of that entire year before the years, you know, so it's like, it's very tiny amount that we've been alive. So someone. To think that humanity is going to live here to the eternity. They're probably delusional. So we know we're not going to be here forever. We know we have the opportunity to create this thing. So why do we have to be all pessimistic about it? Oh, it's going to replace us. Maybe it's going to enable us to transcend. We don't have to be pessimistic. We are the parent of this thing. And if we raise our children correctly, they treat us nicely. If we're gonna treat them. If you're gonna raise them badly, sure, okay, we can be pessimistic. But so far we've been doing great. So far we've been evolving better. If you look at the crime rate in the world today is much better than it was like 10 years ago. But the news, they talk about it more. They make it seem as if the world is a worst place. No, it's not. It keeps getting better and better and better. And I'm. And I'm a strong believer that our civilization will be able to move this thing to be the best thing that ever happened to all of us. If you were to, if you ask me fast Forward to see 30 years from now. What do you say? I truly think that the wealthiest person on the planet today won't have the access, doesn't have the access that the poorest guy would have in 30 years from now. Whether they choose to take those things or not. Some crazy. Usually they just don't want to, but they will have access to medical, to food, to resources, to you name it. Better than the wealthiest today that's in like 30 years. So is that better? I think it's better. I want my children to live in that world and I want to continue working with people. They believe that it's going to get there. And I think the more we bring people that they think positively to actually do something about it, the more likely we'll get there if we sit passively. Sure, Roman might be right, but we're not passive. We're not. I mean look at you guys. When I research you guys, I saw that you're non stop. You're like around the clock doing things and talking to people and raising these awareness. And as much as I wish by now that bitcoin got to the remaining 99% of the planet, we're still, I think within that 1%. But there are reasons for that. And guess what? I think there's a way that we will get there. And it probably not going to be progression. Probably would be like one shot. It's just like there's something going to happen soon. It would be like people would feel like there's 2.1 quadrillion satoshis. That's a lot more than people. So imagine every human ID satoshi. How cool is that? There's so many cool things you can do because you can trace that to the origin to every single satoshi is actually I'm sure you guys know that Adam back used to disagree with me. He doesn't agree with me anymore. But every single satoshi is actually a non fungible token. Bitcoin is not fungible. It's actually by construct it's non fungible. We make it fungible through A lot of the things, like because we're same as your bitcoin, all of these things. But dude, every single satoshi by construct, you can put it on its own and it can have its own non fungible, which means that can be an id. Imagine how cool that ID is. This is way more powerful than any nation state id. And there isn't anyone that can compete with that. Like any nation state ID can be faked. Not this one. You cannot take this one. You have to go back in time to change. You can't.
- [37:41]
Robert Breedlove
This is the idea behind decentralized identification. Right, Dids? Yes, I think the verdict is still out on a lot of those alternative use cases for bitcoin. But it is very interesting. Makes for very interesting thought experiments if nothing else. I want to ask you. So are we saying with artificial intelligence, it is an innovation that's on par with something like the spoken language, written language, mathematics, money itself. It's not just a tool in the sense that these tools, first of all, they become very deeply embedded in us. It's hard to even think what it would be like to think without English, for instance. For me, they also accelerate the rate at which we can create other tools. They allow us to connect our minds in a way through again, spoken language, mathematics, money, in a way that allows us to become more innovative and prosperous over time. So in that way, it's kind of like a meta tool. It's like a tool that helps you produce more tools over time.
- [38:44]
Tufi Saliba
Yep.
- [38:45]
Robert Breedlove
But what. And correct me where I'm wrong here, but so I guess that's kind of the first part of the question. The second part is, I think you said something like that the core problem isn't artificial intelligence per se, but artificial epistemology, which is, you know, the science or logic of knowledge. Could you, I don't know, could you just pontificate on those things, like how big of a deal is AI? And then what is artificial epistemology?
- [39:13]
Tufi Saliba
I honestly don't see that to be a problem. I see it to be a feature. I see it to be a tool until it's no longer a tool. It is the very first time we have this thing that is a tool, but on its own, we continue and we can't stop it. No matter what we do, we're going to continue evolving it so it can get to a point where it's working on its own. So I don't really see it as a problem. I mean, we can make it a problem. We can make it out of everything problem. We can Buy a car and take it and start hitting people. But the car is a tool that
- [39:50]
Robert Breedlove
any tool is a weapon if you hold it the wrong way or the right way, depending how you look at it.
- [39:55]
Tufi Saliba
Absolutely. But in order to get to the point where we feel like long time from now, where this thing is going to outlive us, dude, it couldn't be 200,000 years. Let's have phenomenal time during those 200,000 years. We don't want to be like, what Roman is talking about is, could be 200,000 years from now. Even if this thing is way more powerful than us, we have all the capability right now that we're building around it, that it can function in a certain way that is actually doing us great things around here. It's making life phenomenally well. So look, I mean, when it gets to the point where it has its own way to live without our existence, let's say in a couple years from now, it's capable to live on its own. But why is it going to fight us? If you think about it, we would only fight us if there is the worst thing for humans being humans themselves, like being Trump. Somebody's trying to actually hurt someone else. But on its own, it's not going to need food, it's not going to need, you know, to go on a better vacation. Like your neighbor want to go on a better vacation than you. But that thing is not going to want to do something better than you. It's going to need two things. You know, it's going to need matter and energy. And when you look around, I mean, even Elon Musk, you, they don't like him or not, but like scientifically speaking, the guy's been doing great work. Like if you look around, there's a lot of matter and energy outside of this planet. Like, they don't really need to be stuck in here. Like, when you have something that capable of actually trying to get to the point where they're going to fight us for energy and matter, it's capable to also producing better ways for energy and matter. So I don't, I don't really see it as a negative thing. I see it as a very, very positive thing that we're approaching. It took again, I, if I go Back to my 12 years ago when I first talked about the worst thing is that having this entire powerful thing to be in the hands of like a single entity that is no longer a thing to worry about. I, I'm telling you, I'm deep in it. I can tell you it's no longer a thing to worry about.
- [42:11]
Eric
So can we pull on that thread? I'm curious as to why, because I think a lot of people are concerned about who gets control over AI or AI being leveraged to control the masses. And so can you unpack why you're. You're no longer concerned about that?
- [42:26]
Tufi Saliba
Because.
- [42:26]
Robert Breedlove
And could you also. Sorry, I don't think I heard you talk about artificial epistemology. I would love to hear what that means and what that is.
- [42:36]
Tufi Saliba
Well, that specifically is not so much my expertise. I'm much more in my main, main expertise is, is in the communication of any AI to talk to any other AI and eliminating that friction. And that's where my main expertise. And with that I'm able to see a lot of different systems that they don't necessarily agree with each other. They're not built by the same people, they're not built by the same nations, and so on, so forth, able to collaborate. And then when they do collaborate, they end up. There's something that we call the emergence. You know, if your engines do 99% and my engines do 99% together, they don't necessarily like just stuck at 99, because it could be different, 99% accuracy. And that emergence could be that they get to 99.6% or whatnot. So while I focus so much on that, I end up like neglecting a lot of the things that maybe I shouldn't neglect. But I have only. I happen to be homo sapien like you guys. I have 24 hours in a day. So I don't have a lot of hours to focus on a lot of things. I let others to focus on those things. So yeah, so but from my tunnel vision, from my perspective, the way I see that is if you look me up, you can see me standing in front of a crowd 12 years ago telling them about all the threat of single entity. You don't see me doing that anymore because I know it's no longer a threat. This is, it's not. But to the other point that you have said that will they use it against people? Of course there will be a lot of rough rides. There will be a lot of things, but they will adjust. Because I poked the Mark Zuckerberg six years ago, seven years ago now they said, will Mark Zuckerberg give his daughters decentralized pills? And what I meant by that, they're actually pills you swallow every Friday. They just go to charge all the computer that you've got in you. And the centralized pills, they give control to one nation, one entity to control whoever takes those pills versus decentralized pills. They're built by 1,000 different companies in the governance of all around 1,000 different companies. And there's one that it's only Facebook. Even if he owns Facebook, he's the CEO of Facebook. He wouldn't give his daughters the Facebook pills if it's only controlled by Facebook. You see, so you're basically, if you wouldn't do that to your daughter. So why am I telling you this is because knowing that the humans, they continue to evolve in building all of these things, they worry themselves about their own children. And if they start pushing those things to, to, you know, govern their people in a way that they're very nasty, they're going to stop when they see it impacting their own children. It's, it's, it would be a rough ride. It's inevitable. People, they will do all kind of nasty stuff. But it won't last long.
- [45:49]
Robert Breedlove
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- [47:01]
Tufi Saliba
So.
- [47:02]
Robert Breedlove
Well, so the race for centralized versus decentralized AI is pivotal then if I'm
- [47:14]
Tufi Saliba
hearing you correctly, 100%. I no longer see Google to be the enemy. I see them a node. And believe me, they started seeing themselves as a node when you actually put the carrot in front of each and every one of the agents are there. So they accumulated. They started talking about the Internet of AI nine months ago, publicly. But I knew that they're going to Talk about it about a year and a half ago, just happens like a couple engineers, they work there, they used to work for me, we're having during Christmas last year, chatting, and they told me, hey, we brought your idea to the Google. So they started this thing called a 2A agent to agent and then in September and now something called AP2. And that's how you can pay the agents. And most recently about a couple of weeks ago, there was something called universal something protocol, ucp, I think. And it's. But if you look at all of these things that they're doing, they have realized that they need to attract all of the agents to kind of partake and build what they're saying. With their Google cloud, they were able to attract about 2,000 companies that they're part of that. But they've also realized that there's like maybe 20,000 that they cannot get to achieve unless they open their gate to that Internet AI. And that's today. We're talking about 20,000 entities building agents in the world today. The expectations will be in the millions very soon. So that's why I really think of Google as a node. And if Google doesn't want to be a node, they would be. Whoever is making that decision, they probably lose their job because you've got to put the carrot in front of them. It's like, look, look, you have all of those agents, they can make more money if they're open. And the thing is, if you use capitalism in the right way, you're able to kind of like steer it and move things around and get them to have the carrot exactly right where they would need it the most. And then they would gravitate towards that. If they, if we were to take a different approach by like many of my ex colleagues, which you. You've had one on the show, Ben Cortel, we, we had this partnership and then we separated because his view of things is a little bit different. He wants them, he sees them as the enemy. I don't see them as the enemy. I see them as a node. Because the thing is, if you see them as the enemy, you want to convert their thinking to decentralized. That's not gonna happen. But you don't have to tell them they decentralized. You just tell them they're part of the Internet of AI. And then now they're opening all of their 2000 companies to be part of that thing. So, yeah, I don't really see a central entity doing as bad as they did with the Internet for a long time. They will do it for a short period and they will stop. So so long as there's many others that they exist, they will continue to be a node into that Internet and not the only one. And they're not going to be the only ones. You know, China does things a little bit differently. The entities that they're in China, they all belong to the nation somehow. But the way they run the nation and as he said, they claim they're decentralized or whatnot. So if someone were to place a bet on a single entity to control the world would be China. Because the US government won't do it as much people, they say it's like, well, but the US we have like much better AI than, than China. Let's say you're right, you just won't do the centralized thing that you, that China would like. You know, you can't like even if you do it today, the next president will undo what you do now and so on so forth. Like it's, it's part of the constitution of what makes America, you know, the greatest country in the world. Whether people, they like that state or not, it's just, it is what it is. If they don't like that statement, I'm, I tell them it is the most powerful nation in the world, then they shut up. But what is it like? There is a lot of things that you know that they won't do it. Like even if they were to do it for a short period, they will not do it for a long period and eventually will fix itself. We'll get to equilibrium. But if you were to think of like the single threat, you would probably be in China. So if that's the case, then why do you want to regulate every single country company that is here? By regulating, you're actually slowing them down. So I don't want to see Google as the enemy. I don't want to see Maxwell as the enemy. I don't want to see any entity, I want to see them all to be going as fast as possible because the faster they go, the more we have a decentralized by construct without telling them that it is decentralized. Tell them call the Internet because if you mention the word decentralized, start fighting it. They don't need to know. Just tell them this is the Internet of AI and they like it. So we were able to get MIT to come in on board with 33 other universities. They called MIT. Nanda, I'm not sure if you, are you guys familiar with what the work they've done who's that?
- [52:22]
Robert Breedlove
Mit.
- [52:23]
Tufi Saliba
Yeah, the mit. Nanda. It's called Nanda.
- [52:26]
Eric
I'm not either.
- [52:27]
Tufi Saliba
No. They started working on that Internet of AI. Happy to introduce you to the folks that they're running the show there. And then I think the professor there would give you a completely different outlook than you've got from Roman because he's actually deep into working on that global registry for agents. So, yeah, I really think that we're much better off than we would have been if things didn't take that direction a few years back. And I remain optimist. My optimism is based on a lot of people that I know that they are skeptic. So I don't want to say that they are bad people because we have a lot of skeptical people. We have a strong system, and the more they're paranoid, the better that entire system is. So it's good that we have people like Roman. They keep putting that question mark and questioning things. Or like Luke in Bitcoin. You guys don't know Luke Dasher? Yeah. Yes, he would question everything big time. But if you don't have people like Luke, then you're not as strong as you have in a. The development. So, yeah, I haven't talked to him in five years, maybe now.
- [53:47]
Robert Breedlove
But yeah, I mean, this is something we talk about in Bitcoin all the time, that most people are adversarial thinkers. And that's great. Right? It's like everyone's focused on what's the worst that could happen. Constantly examining and assessing threat vectors, attack vectors, attack surface, et cetera, et cetera. That's what keeps the network strong. It's the classic, you know, hope for the best, plan for the worst type of mentality.
- [54:13]
Tufi Saliba
But we need that.
- [54:14]
Robert Breedlove
That's what the market. Yes, that's what the market process provides. Right. Like if you. If you've got a weakness, it will be exploited by someone.
- [54:22]
Tufi Saliba
Absolutely.
- [54:23]
Robert Breedlove
So that's very important. You know, earlier you said that, well, clearly this is. These systems are intelligent by some definition. By your definition, at least. Right. They're doing things cognitively faster, better, cheaper than we can. So therefore, at least along one dimension, they are more intelligent than us. Although they might not be necessarily generally intelligent, you know, which I think is typically defined as like, the ability to solve a wide set of problems in a. A wide set of ways. Something like that. And you also said in response to one of Eric's questions, that this technology is and I guess becoming an extension of our consciousness or maybe an amplification of human consciousness. Can we just talk about the difference between those two? What is the difference between intelligence and consciousness? Is this something that machines is. Obviously intelligence can be artificialized, if that's a word. Can consciousness. Like what is the difference between intelligence and consciousness?
- [55:31]
Eric
Good one.
- [55:32]
Tufi Saliba
Yeah. So if you were to talk about the extension, I can elaborate a lot on that. When it comes to consciousness, I feel like there a lot of people that think that think more of the consciousness that it really is. They think we can output that in the machine. And it's like. And I kind of disagree with that. So I would put that aside. I think everything can be put into the machine. Everything like we have not seen or imagined anything that cannot be put in the machine. That's what I believe and the reason why I keep it as I believe as opposed to. I know because I cannot prove it. But the other things to talk to answer your thing about an extension. I can prove that and I think it's like the proofs are out there. When people, they're using a lot of the tools and what's coming over the next while is more and more of those tools where the bottleneck is the communication of the human. With those tools, like your ability to kind of communicate, they're able to do a lot of fasting, you would think a lot of fast things, but you're not able to communicate. And it's using natural language, which is referred to as natural language, which is very. It's not the best communicate like basically because you're always dumbing things down to the language. There's a lot of things that you're able to express. Perhaps if there's better ways than language and these things, we will experience them over the next while with things such as neuralink and other methods. There's a lot of research that I've seen people that they're sensing the voice and based on how your customer is talking, not the words but how they're talking, you're able to know if they're going to cancel the product or not with certain accuracy. And sensing all of these things will lead us to next step where you're able to talk to your computer and is able to understand you better than anyone that you know. Do you see the evolution of that. That is an extension of your brain. If you're able to think of something and you're able to see this machine is helping you with that thought, helping you to get further. But if that extension is spread between 100 different companies and you don't remember which one has what this Is one of the things that takes me back to that extension would be super awesome if it's sovereign, if it belongs to the people. I really think that that brings us back to that shell. So yes, to answer your question, the extension part is absolutely there. I hope people that are able to continue to own their brain and partake in the monetizations of what that brain does into the world on going basis. The wealth creation that we're about to. We already saw that. I think with the Internet, the AI is expected to be quadrillion dollars added to the world economy. So that's in the next few years, not that long from now. And that's again the price of planet earth. They estimated IMF $3.8 quadrillion. But that Internet of AI is expected to be 4.8 quadrillion. So imagine all of that wealth creation is going and excluding all of the Homo sapiens that, you know, you probably don't feel too good, but it's probably better even if it is $2,000,000,000, but includes a lot of the people. Because no matter how you swing it, everything links back to economy somehow. So the extension of intelligence can be a lot better extended if there's a dollar sign somewhere. If you're just telling people, hey, preserve your privacy. People, they sell their privacy for a penny. But if you tell them that if you're able to preserve your brain so you can have imagine you're applying to job next year and you tell them, I don't know, I have my mosaic versus I don't. What do I mean by mosaics? You have your own intelligence that you emitted over the next 12 months. By having that, you're able to. You're lucky if everything else is equal the guy who has that is likely to win getting that. That job. So. So yeah, so I think that extension exists now. But how far can we say that it's an extension of a human and not us as extension of it? I don't know when is that line? Because at some point, if you were going to be the extension of it, we're going in that direction and we should continue going and we should welcome it. Because this is like we're literally having a baby. So we shouldn't. People like, this is where I'm completely against Roman. It's like, this is not doomsday. This is. We're having something. The most marvelous thing. We were presented with opportunities unprecedented. Let's make the best out of it. Let's bring all of the thoughts. If you look at bitcoiners I mean I've seen bitcoiners, the best people in the world and the worst in the world. Luckily, I don't see those worst ones anymore. It cleans itself, man. So imagine you take those and then kind of get it to propagate to the rest of the world. We've got something super solid. We have this thing that heart needs to be solid for this organism. And we already got it. So I really think that we really need to be a little more active into channeling into all of those things. The heart needs to be in every single organism. It is needed in every organism. Every time it pumps, it's impacting everything that is there. So I don't want us to be isolated. I really think that the time has come to get to that point where we can extend everywhere. So yeah, the extension is there. Which way? When does it flip the trio world extension? I don't know. But it's eventual. It's eventually we'll be there.
- [62:18]
Eric
So I'm curious about the economic implications of this. As these productivity gains increase. That's a deflationary force. And how do you think that unfolds as it's colliding with the inflationary requirements of our current economic, monetary, global order, if you will.
- [62:37]
Tufi Saliba
Right. The more what you've noticed is that the more you enable people with things, the more they want to do more things. So it's like unless they keep it like super duper secret. Like if you have a lawyer who is the only one between all lawyers who's got access to all of the AIs and we'll start taking 10 times more clients and doing all these things behind the scenes. Sure, that that could work. But the reality is that that lawyer is going to have an adversary who's another lawyer who's also got access all of the AI. So then everybody's going to end up doing more, more utilizing more of that AI. So if we keep thinking in that direction, then you start thinking that like the conversion of it all comes down to the basic of conversion of energy from potential to thermal. In that conversion you can take a combustion engine for example, and burn the gas and combustion engine, it moves the car from point A to point B so it's doing something with it. This is great. Or you can just burn it. But in both cases the results is just thermal, just heat. You know, in both cases, like net, net of it is just heat. But the first example you're able to move a copper point. It won't be so now if you were to look at like bitcoin mining versus just a heater in someone's house. Well, bitcoin mining is doing something more than that heat. But then if you think of the evolution of that, the heart, how much it consumes in energy versus the brain, but the brain is doing a lot more complicated things. But they're both going to need each other in a way. So when you extend that into the economy, you, you'd notice that we're about to cross a line where intelligence is more like the. Where everyone's heading toward more intelligence like the black hole. And you got to continue dumping more and more money to that intelligence. There's no stop. There's no stop. It's never going to stop. And continue going more and more and more into that direction. So I think while we're doing that, when the economy takes a shift and most of the things will start getting producing AI and AI starts growing faster, we will probably notice similar things that you guys probably around same generation as me. So you've probably seen that like from the time that you were your kids, the doctors, they were the ones that they make the most amount of money. Today is not the case anymore. Right. The doctors and the engineers, they're just like barely making the end of, you know, the month or whatnot. And I think we will notice the same with like a lot of the existing things like the, the bankers. And I'm so happy to see that because I don't. Because the bankers have been extractors. And I really think that when you have a lot of machines that they're replicating that people, they're going to be a lot more at ease with not having that thing that's called the banker. It's going to extract all of these things just going to be automated. So I'm very happy about a lot of the jobs that we eliminated, to be honest. But a lot of other jobs going to be a lot more existence. Like the stuff that you do. For example, do you think that AI would replace you? No way. If AI would replace you, people would not want to watch it. People, they want to watch you like Homo sapien bringing some crazy guy like this. They want to see the. It doesn't matter how good it gets the AI if it's going to get better talking than me, you're not going to have audience watching it. You're just going to have the need for having the people. It's just going to continue to grow. But the economy is just going to accelerate a lot more rapidly. And again, I'M with Elon Musk on that. I think when we cross that chasm doctors that they haven't really jumped into that wagon, they're probably going to miss out because it's like you probably notice with money, it's like if you have $10 in your pocket, next year is not worth it doesn't buy as much stuff as it does today. But it's just going to be a lot faster going in that direction. So yeah, oh, when the world's going to start like doubling over a couple of years? You know like the general rule you say every seven years the, you know like the calculating the things that the present value versus future value, past value, seven to 10 years where things will double, I think that's just going to shrink down to three and a half and then soon to maybe two years and just going to continue going a lot faster and faster. So I hope Homo sapiens would end up owning a lot of agents and not leaving that thing behind. The more agents you own, the more you partake in that economy.
- [67:52]
Robert Breedlove
So there's a very special place called the Farm at okefenokee. That's a 1,000 acre regenerative farm community about 45 minutes northwest of Jacksonville, Florida. The farm is a completely off grid community. It has total food, water and energy independence. Everything on the farm is 100% organic and it even features wild boar and bear, bear hunting. The Farm at Okefenokee is right next to the Okefenokee National Wildlife Refuge where you can do camping and canoeing tours. So if you're like me and you're interested in the self sovereign lifestyle, then you can get your own lot on the Farm at Oki Finokee. If you tell them that I sent you once you get a lot, you can build one of three custom cabin options. So if you value freedom, self sovereignty and living in touch with nature, then join me and my family. We have lot number 21 and we're going to be building a cabin there starting December 2025. To learn more about the Farm at okefenokee, go to okifarm.com and make sure to tell them that I sent you. Yeah, it really becomes difficult to fathom very quickly if as you say, that doubling period keeps contracting. Right. There's a saying that the greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function. And when things start doubling that fast, it's just like you can't say two feet in front of your face, so to speak. What about, I mean people often talk about the moral implications of this, I'm sorry, before we go there, actually the job destruction thing, this is just one. I've probably already picked this bone a few times, but I feel like it's always worth repeating. I don't hear anyone else ever talk about it. Everyone's so hyper focused on, hey, AI is going to destroy all these jobs. And that's a, that's a net negative somehow, which is a completely one sided telling of the story, right? It's only going to destroy jobs that are not creating the same amount of value. Better, faster, cheaper. So on the flip side of that, you've got consumers increasing their purchasing power, increasing their productivity gains, increasing their wealth. That is the other side of job destruction. So job description, job destruction, you know, as Shumptir said, it's creative destruction, right? There's, there's a value add to it and people rarely discuss that. And that I find that to be very 100.
- [70:25]
Tufi Saliba
I was asked in Abu Dhabi seven, seven years ago, I was in the like at the time. They were saying it's like the blue color is the first one that's going to do. I'm like, no, no, the white color is first. And. But the question that should be asked, what's the last job that will not be eliminated by AI? And I answered, kindness. They're like, kindness is not a job. I'm like, it will be. So it's like parenting. Seriously guys, I mean think about it, right? But that's also like around the, like the like if I, when you see gate and it's automated, you always choose the automated. You don't want to deal with the guy who's going to be like an asshole. But if you know the guy and you just, even if it's gonna take a little more time, you just spend some time say like, hey man, how's it going? I just want to say hello. Like there's that, that element of like human compassion, the kindness, all of these things that's going to flourish. I want us to live in a world where this is the kind of stuff that people, they care about and not a necessary job for somebody to survive. I want us to live in a world where 30 years from now, where the poorest person in the 30s from now, the poorest person on the planet will have access to resources better than the richest man today. I truly want that. So if in that trajectory from now until then, a lot of people are going to lose jobs, I'm not going to cry over that. Like, okay, you should lose your job if that's what they, they should not. They're the reason why the world is not getting what they want today because you need to get there. And they can partake in this world. They can actually. They can do something that the rest of the world would need, and they can. They have the ability to, you know, operate agents, operate nodes, do things. There's a lot of things that they're happening. So I can't be evolutionary regressive with those people like the Karens everywhere telling, like, shut off the engine. Like it's usually launch. Like, that's one of the things that happened two years ago when I was in Davos. I pulled on the side and I left the trunk of the car open and I went into the store to grab a box. I kid you not. By the time I grabbed the box and got to the car, a Karen came in. He's like, shut off the engine. Shut off the engine. I'm like, look, I'm driving, Phil. He's like, you need to shut off the engine right now. Leave me alone. So, you know, so I, I really think that we're. Everything is accelerating. We need to accelerate faster. We need to get people that we care about to partake in this economy not, you know, not become friction in it, you know, becoming friction. Sure, they're going to lose their jobs and they're going to make it difficult for, for the rest of us. But we're, we're. We're that close, man. And I'm very optimistic. I kid you not. Like, it's. It's the best time ever to feel that, like, everything that you're working on, that the world is kind of working with you on it. That getting there, you know, it's not the feeling that I had 12 years ago. You can look me up, you can see my videos. I was really concerned and I'm glad I was concerned. There was a time to be concerned right now. There's a time to build and be optimistic about the greatness that can. Can come from this thing.
- [73:46]
Robert Breedlove
So, yeah, it's the entire point of the march of technological progress is to get human, to eliminate the drudgery. Right? Well, we have washing machines now. People used to wash those things on washing boards. Like, of course that's what we want to do. Get more humans out of the loop. Eliminate the monotonous jobs. You know, your gatekeeper job is a great example. I bet the guy doesn't love sitting there eight hours a day pressing a button up and down.
- [74:12]
Eric
An elevator operator.
- [74:13]
Robert Breedlove
Elevator operators. Yeah. I mean, the list is forever long. But.
- [74:17]
Tufi Saliba
Right.
- [74:17]
Robert Breedlove
We should celebrate it.
- [74:18]
Tufi Saliba
Right.
- [74:19]
Robert Breedlove
Every job lost. The flip side of that is prices suppressed or value created for consumers, which is the whole point. Right. We're solving problems better, faster, cheaper.
- [74:31]
Tufi Saliba
Right. And it goes back to that energy conversion. You're converging this energy from like potential to thermal and getting more things done with it. More things.
- [74:39]
Robert Breedlove
You're economizing.
- [74:40]
Tufi Saliba
This is what, yeah, this is what you're here for.
- [74:42]
Robert Breedlove
I mean, that's why I think that's the frustration is like people get upset with the process of economization. I was like, you know, that's what an economy is for. Right. Like this is the point.
- [74:53]
Tufi Saliba
Right.
- [74:54]
Robert Breedlove
So I know it gets, yeah, it can be. I, I agree. It could be a little, you know, for people that don't understand what's going on, it may seem a little heartless, like, oh, what do you mean? I love the guy that's pressing the gate button for me. It's like, well, we all love him, but he's got to adapt. I mean, that's the way of the world, right?
- [75:09]
Tufi Saliba
And he can be doing something better. You, I'd rather walk with him in the park if he's a nice guy and begin having a good time and maybe he can do something else that he feels a lot more useful. He feels better about his life. Everyone I'm talking about, everyone would have better life in 30 years from now. So if you can shorten that to 20, that's a good thing. But if they're going to slow us down and make it 40, I don't want that in 30 years. I get to still enjoy it in 40. I don't know, I mean I, I don't watch a lot of, I don't agree with a lot of things that Warren Buffett says. But there's one thing that I agree with him is you don't save sex. Old age.
- [75:54]
Robert Breedlove
What is it again?
- [75:56]
Tufi Saliba
He said Warren Buffett. I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but one of the things that I agree with him on, he says you don't save sex to old age.
- [76:03]
Robert Breedlove
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.
- [76:05]
Tufi Saliba
And I think he's talking from experience.
- [76:11]
Robert Breedlove
That's funny. I was going to ask about just the moral implications, you know, where, how does you know who's morally culpable with AI? Is it the designer of the AI? Is it the AI itself? You know, if, I don't know, one of these self driving cars runs over someone, like how, how do we wrestle with the moral implications of a technology as profound as AI.
- [76:40]
Tufi Saliba
Well, to answer who, first I think the folks that they're designing the economies around it, like you and I, we're the responsible. We're not so much the programmer, because again, I've researched you a bit and I watch your shows and all that. And your. You're doing a lot in that space where the more the economical incentives are aligned towards betterment, the more they will end up being built towards the betterment. So if the economical incentives are not put in that way, then sure, then the one who's writing code might think, okay, well, I want to make this machine to be, what do you call it? The punishing. The guy who just like crossed like without paying on the gate, want to go and punish them, and then they start with that and you end up like false positive and all that. We know better. I mean, you already know like in Bitcoin, if somebody makes a transaction and that person is like a bad person or a good person, if they're able to make a transaction, the transaction goes through. Not because you are bad and you let it go through. It's because it's like breathing oxygen. They still can breathe oxygen and they're allowed to breathe oxygen. This is not the part that you can go and penalize them and doing all of these things. And the same way, if you were to think of all of the incentives that they're being built around the AI, you want more people to use it, that they're happily using it, as opposed to being built towards like punishing people and tracking people and doing all of those crazy stuff. I got in trouble with China seven years ago. I was invited to speak an event there, and I talked about examples of how the government there, they used AI against the people. I mean, I made peace afterwards. It took me about nine months to kind of clarify that this is. I'm just talking about, and I apologize for using that as an example and all that. And I think they're doing much better now, to be honest, because they've done already a lot of bad stuff where people, they walk in towards the subway and it's blocked and it's like, okay, because they were they paying their taxes or whatnot. So, but, but yeah, imagine you're. You're writing code and you know that that code is going to be used against causing harm to some Homo sapien. Your human compassion automatically would likely feel like, maybe I shouldn't be doing that. But it's not enough to stop you. But if there's an incentive for you to actually build something to be proud of, to make people more happy, use it. You follow the economic incentive because there's a day you're going to follow the carrot. So the more we put that incentive, the more they're going to go towards it to make this world a better place. If we stop this incentive, we go to become commies or whatnot, then sure they're going to build, they're still going to do, use their energy somehow and they're going to build it to do something. And yeah, if they start building it towards like penalizing, then they can say that like they can do what the banks used to do in it. They still do. They call it like false positive, let's ruin someone's life. Like, you know, it's a job supposed to, you're supposed to be doing this like from A to B, that's your only job. You're not supposed to be policing, you know. But then they, if, if they don't have an incentive to build the great stuff, then they're going to start building all of the bad stuff. It's, it's, it's inevitable. So I really hope that we continue putting in more incentives. They can build great stuff. So the great stuff will always win. If the economical incentives are aligned. You know, people, they want to make more money, they want to do in greater, you know, greater and greater than they've done before and not all equal. I mean, you probably know that there was a study done on the wealth, how it's been spread between people, that it's not the same. And it's like when you look at the, when you double the amount of money people make per year, you see like, let's say somebody makes $100,000, another one makes $100,000. And you start looking into I. We divide the number of publishers by 2.8, not by 2. So it's like if you look at, it's like everywhere around the world, which is phenomenal way to look and see how less and less people it would make more. It's like it doesn't matter what you do to an economy, it's always going to be the case that less people are going to make more. But there is certain base that everybody gravitates towards it. And that's why the economical incentives, they need to be very well aligned towards that. So yeah, it's like. And then you go from 200,000 to 400,000 and you also divide by 2.8 the amount of people there. You keep dividing by 2.8 every time you double. So you end up having less and less and less people make a lot of money. And it's just like that's how it is in our nature. We can't change that. We know those things cannot change. But we know the rest of the economic incentives can be built in a way that people, they always want better and more things. So let's keep putting more carrots and let them chase that carrot. By getting the carrot make the world better place as opposed to there's no carrots. If there's no carrots, then they're going to make the world worse place because we're all police. Imagine every AI becomes like a police state chasing people looking at everything they're doing. It's just that can be, can be horrible. And we're far from that. I think we've passed the stage. We're not even if it is going to happen here and there like for a couple of years, at some point we can have another crazy ass Covid, but it's not on the long term. We're going to phenomenal destination. I believe it as much as I believe in gravity.
- [82:54]
Robert Breedlove
You mentioned Buffett earlier, someone I don't also agree with often, but his partner, Charlie Munger, another guy I don't agree with often, but he has a great quote. Show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome. And I think that's near and dear to the heart of bitcoiners. We're all disagreeable, but we all agree that incentives really matter a lot. A lot.
- [83:18]
Tufi Saliba
Absolutely.
- [83:18]
Eric
Big time.
- [83:20]
Tufi Saliba
Absolutely. And believe me, we're in this Internet of AI the more and more we've got the incentives propagated and spread around all of these, the better world we're going to get. So I'm not worried about inflation. I'm not worried about any of these things. People losing jobs, all of those things will end up getting to equilibrium so long as we've got more and more incentives. More and more carrots. Better than the sticks. You know, it's the hammer. The hammer. Or you guys call it stick the hammer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [83:58]
Eric
That speaks a lot to your belief about human nature. Do you think that we're going to band together and, and prevent the suffering that a lot of people are concerned about with job loss and the issues
- [84:10]
Tufi Saliba
from, from AI 100% human compassion is such a powerful thing. And the, the, the human creativity and the capability of working together. There's an author, Yuval Noah Harari. Not sure if you've known Sapiens. I think you should have him on your show, by the way. He's. He fits right in.
- [84:34]
Robert Breedlove
We would like to. I don't know if you would like it, though.
- [84:37]
Tufi Saliba
Why not? I think you would like it.
- [84:38]
Robert Breedlove
I think he has a very. The whole idea that there is no such thing as meaning or value is a performative contradiction. You know, his entire book talks about there being a lack of meaning or value. It's like, well, then what. What does your book mean? Why are you writing this? What's the point? What's your purpose?
- [84:55]
Tufi Saliba
Leki has been the crazy bit, but when he wrote Sapien and I read
- [85:00]
Robert Breedlove
Sapiens a long time ago and appreciated it as a book, I thought it has a very interesting scope and perspective on humans. You know, our unique ability to cooperate flexibly in large numbers because we use symbol systems in a way no other animal can. That's all super interesting, but his conclusion and the arrogance of like, oh, no, this is definitely it. There is no such thing as meaning or value. It's all just objective. You know, there is no subjective. That's. That's because, well, then why did you write the book then? Your book is meaningless. You've got no place to stand to claim there's no meaning or value. When you're writing a book to communicate your ideas to other people, you presuppose that you can persuade them, right, that they can establish meaning for themselves, but you're telling them there's no meaning. So it's not, it's not like he's unique in that. There's a lot of these, yes, transhumanist, futurist, dystopian types that like to make these bold claims, but he's just the one that got most right. So that's why he wouldn't like to come on the show, because I would
- [85:58]
Tufi Saliba
tear him apart during COVID You speak to that yet? During. During COVID something changed with him. I, I still. Because I haven't seen him during COVID That and after Covid, you know, in.
- [86:14]
Robert Breedlove
He's getting paid by the wef, that's probably the big change.
- [86:19]
Tufi Saliba
Okay, so then I. I couldn't really finish hearing him. Never. So maybe that's why I think something must have changed. But when I talk about.
- [86:31]
Robert Breedlove
Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome.
- [86:34]
Tufi Saliba
Right. When he talks about the collaborative setting, I think this is very powerful thing that he researched enough scientists and came to that conclusion that on an individual level, we don't do as well as the collaborative. And that brings me back to why I strongly believe that the outcome of this AI thing is just going to be an unprecedented, phenomenal time for us all. During that time, we might have a lot of hiccups, but the destination is worth working for, for our well being, for our children, for other Homo sapiens. I truly think it's worth of fighting that battle. And you know, I'll die on that hill and you guys will witness that. I really think that it's a great thing coming our way and I encourage you. Congratulations to you both, seriously, for all the work that you keep doing ever since they told me about you like a month ago and I started researching you and it's all the work that you do. So thank you. Seriously, it's a great chances are, tell me who you are, I tell you who you know type of thing. So chances are your audience, they're kind of the same mindset and I'm thankful for you bringing me into the show.
- [88:02]
Robert Breedlove
Yeah. Well, thank you. Thanks for coming on. This was fantastic.
- [88:06]
Eric
After Roman, this is.
- [88:09]
Robert Breedlove
I went home bummed.
- [88:11]
Tufi Saliba
I went home bummed.
- [88:12]
Eric
Like I, you know, this was very refreshing. I resonate deeply with your perspective and everything that you've had to share with us today.
- [88:20]
Tufi Saliba
Thank you. Thank you. I tell you, man, last time I saw Roman, we were talking about trees. Okay. I think I might have mentioned this earlier in this conversation, but we were sitting with Joshua Bach. You know Joshua. Did you get Joshua? He was the head of AI for Intel at the time. And I think I might have said this before the recording. We were sitting at this table at the AGI conference and we started talking about the receptors on this planet Earth. Like who, what organism is receiving the most amount of signals from space? And it started saying that possibly most likely the trees because they have the leaves at night and the light usually comes into those from space. And we're not necessarily saying that they are making sense of, of those signals,
- [89:06]
Robert Breedlove
but it's the most surface area exposed, right.
- [89:10]
Tufi Saliba
And it's an organism, right? So it's like. And in the fourth person walking in the conference and coming in and saying like, hey, is that seat take anyone sitting with you guys? And the fourth person is like, are you guys like tree huggers or something that we're talking about some crazy stuff, but it's. But yeah, some people, they can think of a lot of pessimism because we don't have the proof. So what do you have a proof that you can cross the street? You believe you can. You don't know that you can cross the street. You believe you can do we have a proof that we're going to make, you know, a great generation of people, that they're going to be better than us. No, we don't. Maybe even our children will be worse than us. But guess what? We believe we can. And so far we've been doing great as a civilization. Every generation has been doing better and better. So I really think that. Especially in the last couple of years, the things that I have seen from what I'm sitting looking at almost every network of AIs and every AI agents, the incentives already in there for those ads to work together, we're definitely heading to a much better place than I ever thought we would. So very, very optimistic. And I think it's just going to be great. I really wish on everyone to partake in this economy. Don't leave it to others. Just always look around and you find that you've got a say into it. Especially if you believe in these two gentlemen that they're interviewing me. You know, it's, it's great to believe in the human sovereignty and, and liberty. It's extremely important in, in this civilization. Believe me what I'm telling you right now, I have said it in years ago, before COVID I used to go to China. I haven't been since. And in many conferences and many times I've actually convinced a lot of scientists in that as well. And I kid you not, China might actually take a big turn and started pushing in that direction because you're able to get a lot more intelligence and creativity from all of your people when they're thinking, having the freedom, being able to make mistakes, you know, feeling that they can have their own privacy. And all of those are essential and we will continue to get them and we get them, you know, on steroids very soon. So AI is there to be an extension of us. So let's give it our best.
- [91:48]
Robert Breedlove
Beautiful closing words of wisdom. Thank you for sharing big time, Tufi. Really appreciate this. This was definitely great.
- [91:58]
Tufi Saliba
Thank you.
- [91:59]
Robert Breedlove
I love the fireworks. Love the fireworks. Can you please let people know where they can find out more about you or your work on the Internet?
- [92:06]
Tufi Saliba
Sure. If you put T O U f I, that's a 2 fee, you'll be able to find me and you can connect, whether it is on LinkedIn or Twitter or whatnot. If the only thing that I don't respond to is people trying to sell things, everything else, I'm open. If people, they have questions about things, they want to have conversation, they want to talk about algorithms, protocol, I'm always open if they want to sell things, I usually, you know, a block or push to someone else just. But I, I'm really open to a lot of people. They want to have dialogues like this and, and spread more because we need a lot of great people to keep pushing in that direction. And you know, if people want to reach out, just put T O U F I on Google, any search engine you'll find me and please reach out and thank you.
- [93:01]
Robert Breedlove
Yes, thank you.
- [93:02]
Tufi Saliba
Yeah.
- [93:03]
Eric
Very enjoyable conversation.
- [93:05]
Tufi Saliba
Perfect. Thanks guys. Take care.
- [93:09]
Robert Breedlove
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