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- [00:00]
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- [00:29]
Ad Voice
Exclusions apply.
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Abercrombie and Fitch Ad
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- [00:56]
Josh Bearman
Hello, this is Josh Bearman, the co host with Gia Tolentino of the official White Lotus companion podcast for season three. And we are here with a bonus episode with Mike White. Mike is of course the creator of the show, but it's also worth noting that he is the writer and director and executive producer, which is not really common in television. So what's emerged is a TV show that's sort of like auteur film. I've known Mike for a long time, we've worked together, and I think it's not a secret he doesn't really like to talk about his work that much. But we're going to get a chance to do so and dive in. And so next we have Mike White.
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Ad Voice
Mike, thank you so much for talking to us today.
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Mike White
Well, thank you for doing this.
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Josh Bearman
Yeah, this is going to be fun. We're deep in it and so we're obviously super excited to talk to you about it.
- [01:51]
Ad Voice
Dave Bernad told the story about you being on a nebulizer when you were in Thailand early on and this season materializing in your mind almost fully formed from that nebulizer.
- [02:03]
Mike White
Yeah, it was a really weird thing. And I'm like thinking now, I guess I'm like, now that this is over and like four season, I'm like, should I get bronchitis again?
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Ad Voice
What was in it? Can I have some?
- [02:17]
Mike White
Yeah. It is a true story. I was, we were scouting in Thailand and Thailand was kind of just the stalking horse because I really wanted to shoot in Japan because I'd had more fun in Japan, the times I'd visited. But I was having a really good time in Thailand and then I got sick and then they, yeah, they put me on this nebulizer and I did not sleep for two days and I had had some of these. There were some vague concepts that I was starting to like, you know, I don't know, kept churning over. But then I had like 12 hours in a bed, going crazy. And by the time the weekend was over, I was like, oh, my. Yeah. Like, I was like, oh, oh, yeah. Belinda's son could be like. By then. I was like, I think I have the season. I was like. And so I was. I was. I mean, I'm sure things. Yeah. Continued to. Yeah. And when I write things, you know, change stuff. But it was definitely. It definitely felt like I was like, I can plant my flag. And it was taking place in Thailand. So I was like, I have a feeling we're gonna end up in Thailand.
- [03:10]
Josh Bearman
I might have mentioned a little bit when I was in Thailand, but I had the whole thesis before really knowing anything about season three. That season one was this kind of Buddhist allegory. All the characters, they're all in some form of pain. And so then now we're in season three. Where this now is about sort of Buddhism and spirituality and people examining their own suffering and death.
- [03:33]
Mike White
Well, the first season was definitely like a class upstairs, downstairs comedy of manners kind of thing. And, I mean, I don't know. I do read a lot of Buddhism, so I have thoughts about that. This one, at least from how I was composing it. There is a. Using Buddhist sort of ideas as a organizing principle. It was about trying to think about identity as a cause of suffering. I think identity as this way of thinking about yourself in these concrete, literal terms that, like, then end up becoming a source of pain for you. You know, it's a source of. Can be a source of pride, but it also becomes a source of pain. And basically the whole thing is. Is really like kind of dramatic investigation. And this is why the writing is a little different than, like the other ones. It's. Obviously there's satirical elements, but there is a kind of Buddhist parable kind of. It's a. Has a little bit of a parable. Sort of feel like the Waln Goggins story. It's a little, you know, it's not the. It's a little more hard boiled or something than something that I. I usually write. The main original idea was having two guys that were seemingly very different but having a parallel experience during the week. And one guy who has had so much expectation, he has some kind of familial backstory of somebody who always was expected great things. He's kind of like a pillar of the community. You know, he still has the respect and love intact of his family and then has done this shady thing and then realizes not only are they going to be poor, but just this idea of this self that he's created. He's going to have to. Yeah, rip. Rip off the mask and see that he's not that person. It's an annihilation of his identity in some deep way that. Where almost like, why live if you can't be that person? And maybe everything should. Let's burn down the entire world instead of having to face this life, post this identity. And then the Walton character is kind of the inverted as a guy who was never had anyone want anything for him. You know, nobody ever really put the spirit of desire of something. You know what I mean? Like what parents often do, which is like, give kids something to, you know, at least just get the approval of a parent. And having him feel like he's nothing inside. And how that is this. This identity as a victim, a perpetual victim that you can tell yourself. And he has good reason. But how that that can also be a trap. And how you don't see the love, you know, now the last episode, you know, he has this person who really loves him, right. And he just. It's like he can't experience the love in the present because he's just so fixated on the lack in himself and the lack of love he had in his past. And then the three women were sort of. You know, it's like those two male stories are very like, epic. And I was like, it'd be fun to do something that's a little bit more in the spirit of what we've done in the show before, which is a little more like having these kind of more micro issues with each other and thinking about them in terms of like, kind of a one self that's been like, cut into three parts where they come in, they're like having the same kind of like, affirming, upbeat female energy of like, you know, you're great and who's your doctor? Or whatever. And it wasn't really even so much for me about some kind of skating critique of female friendships. It was really just more how we have these touchstones in our lives and how those people can create suffering for you just by existing because they went a different way and you went one way. And it just. You always sort of feel like you're defending your choices just by being in presence of someone who you came up with. And that ultimately, I like the idea of Carrie Coon's final speech about how time, like those relationships are, at least for me, where I find a deep meaning in my life. You know what I mean? Just like that. The time to check in with those people and. And See how life has turned out for them. And. And then I'm. I'm. I'm living my life, and it just. It feels deep, you know what I mean? It's like I. They're not always the deepest friendships, but there's something deep about reconnecting with those people and. And how, you know, everybody has their own religion, but there's something inarguable about how time creates meaning in a show that's exploring religion and God or whatever. I felt like that was an interesting or something meaningful to me to want to express. And then, you know, it's like, you realize that the show's pleasures come a little bit from these very sort of relatable or identifiable types, you know, like, people who go on vacation. You know what I mean? A family that goes on a vacation or a honeymoon or three friends. So it was like I was trying to, like, what is a new version that isn't the same? Like, a slightly different family? But, yeah, part of me also feels like. And it's the reason why the first episode is called Same Spirits, New Forms. Like, in a way, there's an attempt, whether I'm successful or not, to, like, deepen what's come before or, like, continue to use certain tropes where the show feels like it's a conversation with itself in some way. And I actually feel like the discourse or whatever, all the, like, buzz around it has, like, brought more people to the show, and then they come to the show, like, what the hell is this? Like, like, whatever the pacing and the vibe and, like, what it's doing, it's. It's. It. It definitely gets under their skin in some way. And, like, there was complaining about how there's no plot, and that part I find weird because the. It never had a. Like, like, it's never been. It's like, part of me is just like, bro, this is the vibe. Like, I'm world building. You know what I mean? It's just like, you know, like, you know, if you don't want to go to bed with me, get out of my bed. Like, you know what I mean? I'm edging you. You know, it's like, enjoy the edging. Like, if you don't want to be edged, get out of my bed. Do you know what I mean? It's just like, don't be a bossy bottom or get the fuck out of my bed. Like, don't come home with me. Don't get naked in my bed. Get the fuck out of my bed.
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Josh Bearman
Right?
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Ad Voice
I love being edged by you, Mike.
- [09:48]
Mike White
Obviously something's gonna happen. I'm not gonna just like, yeah, we're.
- [09:51]
Ad Voice
Not gonna leave you here. I'm not gonna leave you here with nothing.
- [09:53]
Mike White
Yeah.
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Josh Bearman
As is stated in the opening episode where Piper's listening to the Buddhist monk and he's like, identity's a prison. Did you have a sense when you're starting out, who's going where, or do you kind of find it along the way?
- [10:06]
Mike White
When I was in Thailand, I met a lot of these guys who have younger girlfriends. A lot of them were Thai, but some weren't from. Were from other parts of, you know, the world. And, you know, you could just tell, like, I got on. I got on an elevator and like, there was this older guy and the young girl was very, like, hot and all, like, you know, boobs all pushed up. And like, she was like, you know, had on her phone. She was like, oh, she was like, showing him some Runway photos or something. And you could just tell he was just like, I could. I could not give a. And was like. Like, there was no like. And she was just living in her reality. And he was. And I was like, it'd be fun to start off and you have this kind of relationship where it feels like he's probably in it for the sex and like, he's. But it's just not. At this point, it's almost not worth it. But then that ends up being the. The romance of the show. And I haven't written a lot of that kind of relationship in the show at all. So I was just like, it'd be interesting to do kind of a stealth move where ultimately you actually suddenly find yourself really rooting for this couple and you love them and have her be this kind of woo, woo into astrology. But that, like, because of that, there's this idea that maybe in their tragic ending, there's something that feels a little like some kind of hint to a life beyond that. Love transcends this life. Like, even as they're wheeled out to the plane together in their symmetrical coffins, their love transcends this in some bittersweet. I mean, I don't know, nobody's gonna be like, oh, sweet. But, like, yeah, there's some kind of sentiment there.
- [11:50]
Josh Bearman
Yeah, I think we caught it. We talked about how she calls it earlier on. She's like, I'll follow you if it doesn't work now.
- [11:56]
Mike White
Following the next life. And the next life.
- [11:59]
Josh Bearman
Yeah.
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Mike White
And so, like, I like the idea of giving her a lot of kind of prattle that seems like Nonsense, but that ultimately you're like, oh, maybe, you know. And at the end she talks about the groups working to this divine goal. So, like, whether I believe all that, it's nice to have a voice of that because she has this deep sense of belief and amor fati and like, things happen for a reason that maybe somehow that takes off the edge of the. The sadness of her death in some way because it feels like she has some kind of, I don't know, higher power to what happens next.
- [12:39]
Ad Voice
Yeah, it's like everyone gets scrambled. Like, there are. Some people get their fortunes reversed completely. Some people, like Belinda, just ascend at the very last minute. Did you have a sense when you thought about putting Belinda back in, you were like, okay, like, she's gonna. She's gon at this season.
- [12:56]
Mike White
Yeah. You know, the ending was kind of the first thing I really thought of was like, Belinda leaving with money and like leaving somebody in the same way.
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Ad Voice
She got left and Tanya and someone else.
- [13:07]
Mike White
Yeah, yeah. Just because there was some criticism again, like, she was the black character. She was the dutiful put upon worker. And then she got this very sad ending where she's like, consigned to work there forever while everybody's riding off into the sunset. And some people, you know, some people thought that was accurate. Some people thought that was, you know, too depressing or whatever. It was just whatever. Like, there was a lot of conversation about that part of it. And I loved working with Natasha. And I was just thinking, like, well, what? You know, like, obviously it was sad to kill Tanya. And I was like, what could be something happy that comes out of it, but, like, it's easy to be virtuous and have certain kinds of ideals when you have no money and don't have to, you know, really put your money where your mouth is. You know what I mean? It's like, it's one thing to believe. Oh, yeah, Like, I'm gonna do this, you know, spa for, you know, for women who have, like, whatever her sort of fantasy thing was, but she needs someone to bankroll it. You know what I mean? And it's like, then you've got the money and it's like, can I just be rich for like five minutes? Like, I just feel like that's a very honest. Like, you know, it's like, can I just like, let me just like enjoy this for a second and figure out. So, like, maybe she will go and be, you know, do something meaningful. And I think people do. I'm not that cynical. So, yeah, as far as Your question. Like, that kind of was actually then an anchoring idea of that she would go and have this kind of, you know, little bit of a, you know, Stella gets her groove back kind of thing with somebody there and, like, maybe fantasizing about maybe starting a business with this person. And then, you know, this windfall comes and it's like, I'm out of here, sorry. And that we love her because we are. Which, you know, we get it. But at the same time, it feels very, like, human. And doesn't make it like the end of some 80s comedy where they're like, you know, you see them put up the sign of their spa for, you know, like, less fortunate people and, like, giving massages to, like, housekeepers or something.
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Ad Voice
At the beginning of the season, we're introduced to the Ratliffs. I wonder if you can talk more about that plotline and the sort of, like, Southern Gothic, you know, like, dynamic between the siblings and the parents. You know, there's a lot going on with that family. What if you could just talk about that?
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Mike White
Well, there's some things that were cut that spell it out a little bit more detail explicitly. And I feel like I'm happy that they're cut, but it might have. Some people feel more satisfied. The idea of Victoria as the mother. When Leslie Bibb comes up to her and she's, like, trying to talk to her, she's like, I don't want to encourage her. I'm with my family. Like, get out. And this idea, like, she's always telling the kids, you know, you gotta be careful. You're beautiful, attractive. Like, she has a superiority complex. And, like, it's. It's. It has extended to her kids, and it's turned it into a little bit of a cult where, you know, they're all kind of incestuous, that, like, they've, you know, like, she's, you know, nobody's good enough. And so they're all kind of looking inward, you know what I mean?
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Ad Voice
A bit of an Austro Hungarian royalty vibes.
- [16:14]
Mike White
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then as far as Saxon and Piper, I was trying to think about the last family and how it began with Sydney Sweeney's character being like, we don't want you in here and the kid has to go sleep on the beach. Cause, like, he's this kind of, like, you know, reject. And I was like, what could be the Something that feels like it's like a play on that, which is like, they all want him in his room. Do you know what I mean? And I was like, oh, that's kind of an interesting idea, which is like, one kid is sort of like this carnal, not only just exists that way, but actually has a philosophy around it, which is like, you want to get pussy. Like, the pleasures of life are very basic and like, you know, and that, like, life is about wanting things and getting them, and if you can get them, then you're going to be happy, you know, I mean, and then a lot of times people who retreat from life are just afraid that they're not going to be able to get the things they want, or they say they don't actually want the things they want. And like, Buddhism is like, you know, to me is a whole religion about that, which is renounce things, because wanting things is suffering. And so it's just two different arguments. You know, somebody who's like, I want to retreat to the monastery, not have any desires, and that's gonna be the better way to live this life. And then another one who's calling them on and saying, you're just afraid to have sex. You're afraid to do this, you're afraid to, you know, like, don't run away from life. And that they both, brother and sister, are kind of like two different voices in his ear, and he wants to give them both what they want. So he wants to go to the monastery with his sister, and he's gonna run away from the world with his sister, and then with his brother, he's gonna go to the parties and have sex. The idea was it's a Frankenstein's monster, which is like, all you care about is sex and getting off. And so the brother is like, okay, I'll get you off. And then you're like, what? Wait a minute, what? And the sister who's like, come to the monastery, he's like, I'm gonna move to your two. And she's like, wait a minute. Like, you know, and so. And I just liked that there was this symmetry there and that, you know, they start off in one way, and in the end, he's reading the self help book. The part that was cut to very disappointing is that she decides to lose her virginity in the script in the last episode, and she actually has sex with Zion, which is Belinda's son. So she's like, you know, there's a. There's a whole scene where she's like, that rock. She's like, it's true. Saxon's right about this one thing. I need to get this over with. And, you know, like, after she leaves the monastery, she's just like, I need to, you know, I need to, like, have sex and, like, she's scoping the restaurant, you know, in the end. But, like, it was just like one of these things where it was like. It just felt just again in that, you know, it's an hour and a half already. And it would have added like 10 minutes to the thing. And it had a little bit of a romantic rom com vibe in the middle of, like, you know, trying to kill the family with the pong pong fruits. And it was just like. It just felt like I was trying to do too much, you know, narratively.
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Ad Voice
Drink smoothie and rom com in the same 15. You can tell, though, like, after she comes back, she stops dressing like Wendy from Peter Pan and, like, puts on, like.
- [19:22]
Mike White
Yeah, exactly. That's. Yeah. So when she comes in, it's like, there's a piece of that conversation that was cut because it doesn't make sense anymore. And he's like, you look different. And she's like, what book are you reading? I mean, like, yeah, there's a scene in the thing, so. And she has her hair down and she's. Yeah, so it's like at the end when they're on the boat, it's like she's just thinking about how she got, you know, nicely fucked or whatever. And he's like, reading his self help book and it's like, yeah, this kind of reversal.
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Ad Voice
It's funny too, hearing you talk about it, right? It's like Lachlan, he's. You know, these siblings have this idea of how the world should be approached, and Lachlan's like, yeah, I'm gonna go 200 times as hard on it as you have. And both Saxon and Piper are like, oh, actually, no, no, no, no, no. Both of them immediately like, oh. They withdraw. It's like he's the stress test for their ideology. And both crumble instantly. It's like, actually, don't jack me off. Actually, don't move to the monastery. I'm good. We're good.
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Mike White
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Ad Voice
I wanted to ask about Mook and Gaitok, who go from, you know, having this unbelievable sort of quiet intimacy and fondness, and they've known each other since they were kids and, you know, you're really rooting for them. And then as their storyline develops, you're like. Mook's like, unless I see you kill someone, I will not even go to dinner with you. You know, like, I am unhappy sitting across from you unless you were showing me that you're fluent in masculine aggression. Which is what I want, and you be the bodyguard, et cetera. And Gaitok, despite being horrible at his job all season, snapped via a good shot at the end of the finale, the prized position of Sritala's bodyguard. And he's sort of, like, putting on the sunglasses and sort of compromising his sense of self. But he's got the girl. I wonder if you could talk about that storyline and whether you think, is he happy? Is she happy? Are they gonna stay together?
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Mike White
I think they are happy.
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Ad Voice
You do?
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Mike White
Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, she. I like the idea that it's about a guy who really believes. Has a real deep philosophical agreement with the Buddhist doctrine of nonviolence, and yet he's this guard. I sat and I met a couple guards at the Four Seasons and talked to them, and it's not a job where there's a lot of, like, ruffians who come in and, like, they have to, like, take them down. It's more just being helpful. And so I was just thinking that that would be interesting to have a guy who. He's. He's a true Buddhist and he's nonviolent, but he likes this girl and that, like, ultimately, for him to get the girl and get the job is to, like, be a killer, you know, and the happy ending is on the backs of, like, we know he killed a guy that we love and, like, that he went against his morals. And it's like something that feels very human, which is, in order to get ahead, you have to. You know, this is obviously an extreme version of it, but you have to, like, yeah, like, suck up your idealism and, yeah, like, step up and, I don't know, like, push yourself to the front of the line or push someone, you know, down the stairs or whatever it is.
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Josh Bearman
I think we were wondering. Is, like, is.
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Mike White
Is she, like.
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Josh Bearman
Is Mook happy? And Guy talk sort of never really can forgive himself. Right. For what he's done.
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Mike White
Like, I think at the end, I think he's. I. I don't. I mean, my feeling is like, he. It was worth it.
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Ad Voice
Yeah.
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Mike White
I mean, he wanted that job. He's. It's like, he looks cool in his little. You know, he's like, he looks cool. He's got the girl, but, you know, that something was lost. But the way it plays, he's definitely happy with her. This is what he wanted. He did want that job. Now he has the job. And we just know that he sacrificed something that was his immoralism in some way that he can't Go back.
- [23:04]
Josh Bearman
I have a question about Frank. His monologue. Where did that come from?
- [23:13]
Mike White
I mean, I remember, I won't name names, but like, I went to Japan with this guy who. Like an actor who's straight and he was obsessed with Asian girls. And he was just like, you know, like we got there and it was like, you know, it was just. He. And he had this thing and it was like. And it was just. It was interesting to just witness it. And it was like, what is it that like, is so powerful and where is this coming from? And then I'm trying to think of my own, you know, like, where does desire come from? And like this feeling that there's something that that container holds that feels like lacking in you or something that you feel like you need to commune with that thing to hopefully through some kind of osmosis or some kind of catharsis. Get it? And you know, as somebody who is attracted to guys, it's very. It's simpler to think about it sometimes when it's just like heterosexual love, because it's just like a guy likes a girl, there's some feminine quality, the girl, you know, like some. Like this, you know, like we're.
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Ad Voice
We're.
- [24:08]
Mike White
We're separated for whatever reason into genders. And so it's hardwired in us. It's a sexual drive, you know, like. And then there's these oddballs or whatever. The minority is attracted to the thing that they are. And as somebody who like, has had those feelings and been. You're just like, where. What is this desire? Like, I am this, like, why do I need. What am I missing that I feel like I need to get that. And so that's always been something that's been of interest to me. Like when I have sex with someone who's young and beautiful, I realize it doesn't wear off on me. Like, I walk away and they're still young and beautiful and I'm just me. Still you. I mean, it's so. It's like you can never. It can never be satiated. You mean, like whatever this thing is, you know what I mean? And for. And it's different for each person what that thing is. And so like this idea of a guy who's just like constantly a slave to his. This desire and was going from girl after girl after girl after girl to the point where it's just like he realizes that he's never going to get the thing he wants. He could have 100 girls in a night, so maybe he wants to be that. It Just felt like maybe that is the next extension of where you think like, well, how am I going to be satisfied if I become her? And I somehow figure out some, like, you know, you create some role play thing where it's like, you are her and then maybe it'll be finished, but it's never finished. You know what I mean? There's like, you know, like.
- [25:32]
Ad Voice
So, yeah, you have to add another person watching to give you the mirror of yourself being.
- [25:37]
Mike White
Yeah, exactly.
- [25:38]
Ad Voice
I'm wondering if there's stuff you can tell us that viewers wouldn't know. Like things that came together last minute or things that didn't happen the way you originally planned that people might not know about yet but would want to know.
- [25:51]
Mike White
There was a lot of stuff that got lost. Cut. Yeah, there was a lot more shaping in the editorial than I'm used to because I usually just are trying to make work what I have, because that's all we shot. There was a whole Kate dream sequence, which was really funny and I was sad that we lost it. It's in the third episode after the whole conversation with Trump. And they had a conversation that we also cut about ping pong shows that happen in Thailand. And she's hearing about ping pong shows and she's, like, horrified, and the other women are laughing at her because she's so freaked out by this idea of ping pong shows and who would want to see that? And so she's dreaming she's at dinner and like, these lady boys hand her a ping pong ball and she's like, you're up next. And she thinks she has to go do a ping pong show. And then we did this kind of like Tarkovsky like, dream where there's like, you know, we're on the edge of this beach in Thailand and Valentin is like a Christ figure on these crosses. But it's because she's walking around with this ping pong ball. It's like, all very kind of absurd. She sees, like, this and this, like, stark visual, like this ping pong table at the edge of the water. And then Michelle and Carrie come out to play her in ping pong. And then Carrie hides behind Michelle and puts her hands around her. And Michelle's hands disappear into the dress. So it's Carrie's hands playing ping pong and Michelle and she looks like a dwarf. You know, it's like this. They talk about it in the first episode that, like, oh, we did this thing. We did this, like that. We did this campfire thing. And so, like, it's like this. It's so she's playing ping pong with Carrie and Michelle. They're like like a little dwarf. It's really visually like. It was very, it was very cool, but like, it just. I just realized like as we put it together, I was like, this is not this show. Like, it's just something about it just was like this just feels like I'm. I don't know the tone just, just. It just jumped. Jumped out and I just like this just feels weird. So sadly we cut it. Maybe if there was. If they ever had to DVDs extras anymore, that could be something that people would see.
- [27:49]
Ad Voice
I wonder, can you tell us anything about season four scouting themes floating around in your head?
- [27:57]
Mike White
You know, I've had ideas for each season and then we go and scout and once we choose a place, I realize, oh, whatever I was thinking doesn't work anymore. You know what I mean? When we went to Sicily and we found that hotel, it was amazing. But I was planning on doing a G7 summit. Bullshit. And then I was like, this is not gonna happen. And this should be a bedroom forest kind of.
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Ad Voice
Wait, you were gonna do a G7 summit? Sorry, could you say yeah?
- [28:21]
Josh Bearman
Yeah.
- [28:22]
Mike White
Well, I was just. I was like, they're like, yeah, like, yeah, like a Bilderberg group, you know. Yeah. You're like, yeah, like a Davos kind of shit. And I was like thinking that would be. But then I was like. Then once we got there, I was like, no. So anyway, so I don't know, I kind of think maybe adding fame. I just think this one is very epic as far as just like. Yeah, like a parable. These kind of bigger, you know, the end is so like, you know, so it's, you know, high melodrama in a way. You know what I mean? And obviously that gets people excited as far as like blood in the mouth and guns and da da da. But I was like, maybe something a little bit back to like the first season where it's the satirizing stuff that I know about, you know, art and criticism and movies and fame and celebrity and you know, and the, you know, like a film festival type of thing or something like that or like a of art world sort of situation. It just feels like that would be some kind of new theme to get into that's maybe a little less heady than what we just did, but still be have some juice to it.
- [29:32]
Josh Bearman
I have a thematic question for you about this season. Kind of as a representative of like the whole project of White Lotus as it Were. So people come with this kind of spiritual seeking. A lot of the characters are there explicitly for that. And if they're not, then they wind up kind of realizing that they need to understand something about themselves. And then they're in this context of Buddhism where a lot of the sort of like narrative is about anti narrative. So it's this whole story of which the message is there is no story. Right. Even at the very end the monk is saying, like stories don't have to resolve, they don't need. That's not really the point. It's like a grand master kind of storytelling in order to tell people that like. Well, maybe the way you are thinking about story is as self defeating.
- [30:14]
Mike White
Yeah, well, that's. Honestly, if I have a religion, that's really my religion. I mean, as somebody who tells stories and this is what I love about being able to keep doing this show and what I hope by the end of it, when it's all said and done, we'll see that the project of it is really trying to give voice to so many different characters and telling this multiplicity of stories. And my belief is that as somebody who dabbled in Buddhism and Buddhism is very minimalist, it's about clearing your mind and dropping the story in the sense of a negation of a story. You know what I mean? Like no story or no self. And I, and I believe that's a. I mean it's a fascinating belief system and it's really helped me in different times of my life. But I'm kind of more of a maximalist as far as like, you know what I mean? It's just like tell every story and then it just, just, you know, it's like you be every person and you, you stop taking yourself so literally and you can get inside every head and like you can explore each point of view and you can, you know what I mean, live all these different lives. And if I think about it, I actually get kind of moved just because I feel like that's like that is. That's my life. This is what I'm. This is the little project that for whatever reason I've set out for myself. It's just I realize over time that that that's what I've always done as a kid and what I still do as an adult. And it's how I engage people and you know, it's like you. Yeah, I guess it's my own little religion. And it's like you want to drop the story but not stop telling stories, you know what I mean? In a way, it's like you guys are writers when you're young. It's like, oh, this is my story. I'm writing this thing. And it's like. And only once you've written that thing and you've gone past that, then you're really engaging people in the world. And maybe I get in the head of somebody else I'm thinking about, you know, it's like, I don't want to be just me. You know what I mean? I just remember when I was a kid and when I was in second grade or whatever, and they had this box with all the costumes in the room and you put on different costumes and I just was. I wanted to be the old lady. I wanted to be all these different things and try those things on. And it doesn't mean that you really are the thing, but you're not really yourself either. So it's like. And this idea of being free, of taking yourself literally, I just think that that's one of the main tragedies of this world, is that people are so tribal and take themselves so literally. And this kind of concretization of identity, I'm against it. When it started rearing up, I was like, wait a minute. This runs counter to everything that I've always felt, which is like, we should be leaning toward where we find each other as opposed to finding all these things that are these differences.
- [33:08]
Ad Voice
Well, thank you for talking to us.
- [33:10]
Josh Bearman
Yes, thanks. It's been great.
- [33:11]
Mike White
Appreciate you guys doing it.
- [33:13]
Josh Bearman
G and I had a blast.
- [33:14]
Ad Voice
Yeah, we had so much fun. Bring us to season four.
- [33:16]
Josh Bearman
Yeah, that sounds great.
- [33:17]
Mike White
Yeah, there you go.
- [33:18]
Josh Bearman
We'll see you there.
- [33:19]
Mike White
See you there.
- [33:44]
Gia Tolentino
The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman. Natalia Winkelmann is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Puchillo and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewin Lytramuin at Campside Media. Our executive producer is Josh Dean. For the HBO podcast team. Our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen Zarokach and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
- [34:32]
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- [35:01]
Ad Voice
Exclusions apply.
- [35:02]
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