Ep. 1: Same Spirits, New Forms with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan

Summary

The White Lotus Official Podcast - Episode 1 Summary: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan

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Introduction

In the premiere episode of The White Lotus Official Podcast, hosts Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman delve into the intricacies of The White Lotus Season 3 alongside special guests David Bernad, Executive Producer, and Michelle Monaghan, who portrays Jacqueline Lemon. Released on February 17, 2025, this episode titled "Same Spirits, New Forms" offers listeners an in-depth analysis of the season's themes, character developments, and behind-the-scenes insights.

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Hosts' Introductions and Background

Gia and Josh kick off the episode by introducing themselves and their professional backgrounds. Gia, a writer for The New Yorker, and Josh, a journalist and author with experience in film and television, establish their credentials and connection to the show’s creative minds.

Gia Tolentino [01:10]: "Hello and welcome to the White Lotus Official Podcast, companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino."

Josh Bearman [01:17]: "And I'm Josh Bearman."

They emphasize the podcast's role as a companion to the show, encouraging listeners to watch the latest episodes before tuning in to avoid spoilers.

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Character Identifications and Theories

The hosts share their personal connections with the characters, discussing which roles resonate most with them and why.

Josh Bearman [03:19]: "Before we get into the recap of the episode, I have a burning question. Who did you have the most immediate identification with on this season?"

Josh identifies with Walton Goggins' character, exploring themes of burnout and identity struggles, while Gia relates to Chelsea’s character, highlighting her own experiences with privilege and self-perception.

Gia Tolentino [05:00]: "I have a burning question. Who did you have the most immediate identification with on this season?"

Their discussions set the stage for a deeper exploration of the episode's narrative and thematic elements.

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Episode Recap: "Same Spirits, New Forms"

Gia and Josh provide a detailed recap of the episode, outlining key plot points and character introductions.

The episode opens with a serene scene in Thailand, juxtaposed by sudden gunfire, signaling impending turmoil. This contrast sets a darker tone compared to previous seasons.

Gia Tolentino [06:24]: "Okay, so this episode is called Same Spirits, New Forms. Like all the White Lotus episodes, it’s written and directed by Mike White. ... And then he sees the body, the traditional body in this season, floating in the water."

Josh expresses his tension during this intense opening scene, relating it to personal anxieties.

Josh Bearman [07:13]: "I found this to be quite terrifying, actually. I was really caught up in this opener ... So this really got me."

The hosts discuss the introduction of new characters, including hotel staff members and the Ratliff family from North Carolina, highlighting the show's exploration of socioeconomic dynamics and family tensions.

Josh Bearman [10:51]: "What’s the WI fi?"

They analyze character interactions, such as the dynamic between hotel employees Mook and Lisa (played by Lisa from Blackpink), noting the subtle chemistry and potential storylines.

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Interview with Michelle Monaghan

Michelle Monaghan joins the podcast to discuss her role as Jacqueline Lemon, offering insights into character development and the show's thematic depth.

Michelle Monaghan [25:35]: "I think that, you know, was. Was interesting to me was this idea that she, you know, she has these lifelong best friends, and she wanted to take them on vacation."

Michelle delves into Jacqueline's duality—her desire for control versus her yearning to let loose—and the complexities of her relationships with her long-time friends. She emphasizes the show's portrayal of women navigating friendship dynamics amid personal insecurities.

Michelle Monaghan [26:34]: "And I think that he really wanted us to lean into that kind of that ever-evolving power dynamic, this idea that one's kind of the perpetrator, one's the peacemaker, one's the victim, and it's constantly shifting."

The conversation touches on themes of toxic positivity and the pressures of maintaining appearances, resonating with broader societal issues.

Michelle Monaghan [33:58]: "That's a deep statement right there."

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Interview with David Bernad

David Bernad discusses the production's decision to set Season 3 in Thailand, the show's thematic focus on Buddhism, and the creative challenges faced during filming.

Dave Burnett [41:55]: "Mike, who was twice on the Amazing Race, had been eliminated twice, and both times the elimination station was in Koh Samui. So Mike always had this kind of aversion to Thailand."

David explains how unforeseen circumstances led to the relocation of the shoot from Japan to Thailand, enriching the narrative with authentic cultural elements.

Dave Burnett [44:35]: "I think thematically, he was already in. And then before Mike starts writing, he goes and lives. He lived in Sicily for three or four months. He lived in Thailand for three or four months. ... And I think that led to some of the stories in the show."

He elaborates on how Thailand's Buddhist culture significantly influences the season's exploration of Eastern versus Western philosophies, aligning with the show's overarching themes of desire and suffering.

Dave Burnett [47:04]: "We were very ignorant about Thailand, and that's what's so exciting about the show."

David also shares anecdotes from production, highlighting the organic development of the show's themes and character arcs.

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Thematic Analysis

Throughout the episode, Gia and Josh engage in a nuanced discussion about the show's themes, particularly focusing on desire as a catalyst for suffering—a concept rooted in Buddhist philosophy.

Josh Bearman [20:33]: "Well, I have a thesis about season one which now relates to season three. ... And you feel like season one is, despite the kind of surface level dealing in ideas of wealth and privilege and so on, that it actually was this kind of Buddhist parable."

They explore how Season 3’s setting in Thailand amplifies these themes, with the characters' interactions reflecting their internal struggles and existential quests.

Gia Tolentino [22:30]: "Identity is a prison. No one is spared this prison. Rich man, poor man, success or failure."

The hosts critically assess the portrayal of self-awareness and privilege, questioning whether increased consciousness leads to genuine growth or merely superficial change.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Gia and Josh reflect on the discussions with their guests and speculate on future plot developments.

Josh Bearman [50:36]: "So season three is the first time we've made the show with kind of nothing holding us back. This was a massive production."

They hint at escalating tensions and plot complexities in the season, building anticipation for upcoming episodes.

Josh Bearman [53:00]: "Thank you so much for having me. And thank you guys for doing this."

The episode concludes with gratitude towards the guests and listeners, setting the stage for future deep dives into The White Lotus universe.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Gia Tolentino [06:24]: "This episode is called Same Spirits, New Forms... the episode is titled 'Same Spirits, New Forms.'"

• Josh Bearman [07:13]: "I found this to be quite terrifying, actually. This really got me."

• Michelle Monaghan [25:35]: "She really wants to just be reckless and to kind of lose control... There's a real duality to her."

• Dave Burnett [44:35]: "He went around and investigated different cities and local culture... leading to some of the stories in the show."

• Josh Bearman [20:33]: "I have a thesis about season one which now relates to season three... it was actually this kind of Buddhist parable."

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Closing Remarks

The first episode of The White Lotus Official Podcast successfully sets the tone for an engaging season of analysis and insider perspectives. By intertwining episode recaps with expert interviews, Gia and Josh provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the show's evolving narrative and thematic depth, all while maintaining an entertaining and insightful dialogue.

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This summary was produced based on the transcript provided and adheres to the guidelines of skipping advertisements, intros, outros, and focusing solely on the content-rich sections of the podcast.

Transcript

[Gia Tolentino]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, we've been all over. We've been to Mexico, we've been to Costa Rica. But we can go wherever, really, because Rick barely works. I used to be a yoga teacher.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, wow.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, that's cool. But we've been traveling so much. We were gonna go back to Bali, but then one day he woke up and he was like, we're going to Thailand.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And once he gets an idea in his head, you can't argue with him. Isn't that right, babe?

[Gia Tolentino]

Hello and welcome to the White Lotus Official Podcast, companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.

[Josh Bearman]

And I'm Josh Bearman.

[Gia Tolentino]

We will be your co hosts throughout this journey in Thailand. We'll be recapping and breaking down the episodes, discussing some of the larger big picture themes. We'll be speaking with the cast and.

[Josh Bearman]

The crew, and a few words before we get started. This is the companion podcast, which means we'll be discussing the latest episode of the White Lotus. So make sure you watch it before you listen or you will be spoiled.

[Gia Tolentino]

And if you haven't had a chance yet, I strongly recommend you check out the look back episodes of this podcast in which host Evan Ross Katz dives deep into the first two seasons of White Lotus and speaks with everyone from Mike White to Jennifer Coolidge. You can find those episodes on this very podcast.

[Josh Bearman]

Feedback a little bit about your hosts. We're both journalists and authors and have both worked in film and television as well. I'm Josh. I write for magazines. I write narrative nonfiction stories, and I have worked in film and TV because many of my stories have been optioned for the movie business. That's how I know Mike White and Dave Burnett, the creator and producers of the show.

[Gia Tolentino]

Are you holding back your greatest tidbit about this season, specifically, which is I visited the set.

[Josh Bearman]

So I was on set while they were shooting parts of the show and I might actually be in an episode. I don't know yet.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, I'm Gia. I write for the New Yorker. I'm one of those toxic people that Believes, like. But if I went to the White Lotus, I would just have an amazing time and be happy. Funny enough, though, I have been to all three shooting locations. I mean, not in connection to specifically the filming of the White Lotus, but I have been more or less a vacationer in all three places. So I'm an asshole just like the rest of them. Us.

[Josh Bearman]

Elora, you have a deep insight into the whole scope of the show.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's true.

[Josh Bearman]

We'll be joined later in the episode by White Lotus EP Dave Burnett and Michelle Monahan, who plays Jacqueline.

[Gia Tolentino]

Before we get into the recap of the episode, I have a burning question. Who did you have the most immediate identification with on this season?

[Josh Bearman]

Mm. Well, I have two answers. Yeah, I'll give you both answers. Neither of them are perfect, obviously. My first instinct actually was the Walton Goggins character.

[Gia Tolentino]

Hell, yeah, brother.

[Josh Bearman]

I feel like that. I feel like sort of leathery burnout phase could be in my future. Like, I can see it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Rick. The lady in the airport thought you were my dad. Okay. You should get a gentleman's facial.

[Josh Bearman]

No. And with a mysterious dark past, he's in paradise, but miserable. I've had that phase of life. Could be coming back around again in the future. And at the other end, I think probably Lachlan, Sam Navola's character, the younger brother in the family that. Not that particular family, but sort of being the odd man out in a family, right. And feeling like you're trying to figure out who you are and trying to define yourself against your family. My family did not go on vacation. That was, like, opposed to our ethos. And we certainly wouldn't have been to the White Lotus, but I could kind of see being that kid and trying to, like, figure out your way and being confused by your own family and then winding up 40 years later, as.

[Gia Tolentino]

Walton goes, you never leave. I. I am. I'm a Chelsea through and through.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know, I think the cosmos brought us together so that we could get to the root of your issues. No, I'm gonna help you get your joy back.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Dave Burnett]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

Oh, good luck with that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Even if it kills me.

[Gia Tolentino]

You know, every season of the show, I have identified with the person that gets brought there, but, like, definitely can't pay for it. You know what I mean? Although I will say, when I have been to, respectively, Hawaii or Sicily, I never have a bad time on. I believe, like, very. I have a strong, like, moral belief in. One should never have a bad time in a beautiful place. And I don't think I ever have but again, that's toxic denial on my part. But Chelsea, just clueless, happy, you know, party girl, along for the ride, just trying to get people to get drunk with her. I guess I'm sort of aging out of that phase of my life. But the part where she's at the bar and meets another girl, that's there for no reason, basically, and is just like, should we get.

[Josh Bearman]

I was like, that was where you identified?

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, the part where I most identified with her, obviously, is when she gets poured the taster of wine and she's like, I'm sorry to complain, but it's actually not very much. She poured me, and she doesn't know that it's a normal thing that rich people do. That was what I was like, oh, she's me. I'm her.

[Josh Bearman]

All right, great. Well, I'm sure everybody else is going to be having a rotating identification through all the characters over the course of the season. So now let's get into the first episode.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay, so this episode is called Same Spirits, New Forms. Like all the White Lotus episodes. It's written and directed by Mike White. And like all of the season openers, we get, you know, a shot of paradise. We get a monkey sitting on a tree branch overlooking this gorgeous sort of twilight paradise. You know, pastel sky, Thailand scene. We're meeting a ton of people. The first two we get are Zion and Amrita. Amrita is teaching Zion to meditate in this beautiful pagoda. And this beautiful scene is broken up by the sound of gunfire. He leaves the pavilion. He jumps into a pond, trying to stay clear of the gunfire. And then he sees the body, the traditional body in this season, floating in the water.

[Josh Bearman]

I found this to be quite terrifying, actually. I was really caught up in this opener, which is different from the others, obviously, waist deep in the water and trying to figure out where to go. And my mom's out there, and I was really on edge. I'm squeamish in movies or TV that produce anxiety. So this really got me.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Well, I also think it's like the previous deaths were more or less accidental, right? And this one is. You hear gunfire and you're like, okay. I mean, someone is shooting down, you.

[Josh Bearman]

Know, at the beginning that someone set.

[Gia Tolentino]

Out to kill somebody, like more with more sort of violent intention that was previously there. And I love that.

[Josh Bearman]

So then we flash back to one week earlier, and everybody's arriving, and you have the usual sort of socioeconomic and personality dynamics and the choreography of what's happening on the boat.

[Gia Tolentino]

We Also get two hotel employees, Mook and Guy talk, which I didn't know until about 30 seconds ago that this is Lisa from. This is Lisa from Blackpink. I had no idea.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, but then you can't. When she so, you know, plays this, like, buttoned up, demure character in this that you. It's hard to realize that there's this international, global superstar kind of in there.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, I know. It's funny. It's like, it's different from the Idol where Jenny was playing, still an idol, you know, but here she. Lisa, is playing this health mentor because this hotel has this like extreme sort of wellness meditation. Focus Guy Tuck is a security guard. He's, like, very clearly in love with her. Who wouldn't be? She seems to be keeping him a little bit more at a distance. We can't really tell whether she's just being demure or if she's like, no, no, no, you're my friend. Please leave me alone.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, there's like a Pretty in Pink dynamic going on here.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, I honestly, I love their vibe. There's that one scene where. Where later in the episode where they're flirting and she is talking to the bodyguards of the hotel's owner, and he's sort of being protective. And I found them to have really wonderful, very sincere chemistry. Do you know what I mean?

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, totally. So, of course I'm wondering, like, what's. Are they gonna wind up together? What's gonna happen? Is it gonna be like, Pretty in Pink? Is she gonna go away? I want them to wind up together.

[Gia Tolentino]

I do too. And I kind of feel like maybe they will. I don't know. And then we have our recurring character.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. And then we have Belinda.

[Michelle Monahan]

So I'm here the whole three months. Yes.

[Josh Bearman]

You know, you sure know how to treat a burnt out bitch. It was very nice to see her again on screen. So we see that she's in Thailand and she's there studying, and she's greeted by Porn Chai, the. The masseuse at this white lotus.

[Gia Tolentino]

Belinda's the one that you most want to have, like the triumphant, you know, walk away with huge bags of. And yet somehow even seeing how excited she is and how she's like, I really have a good feeling. You're like, oh, no, Melinda.

[Josh Bearman]

I know, I know. Having just rewatched season one, I was struck again how emotionally damaging her encounter with Tanya was and how she's kind of left holding.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's been recovering for the last few years, and here she is.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's finally getting her chance to trust again.

[Josh Bearman]

She's finally. And then something. And then there's gonna be a gunfight.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Okay. Then there's the Ratliffs. The family of five, an upper class family from North Carolina. Clearly, like, extremely invested in tradition. What did you think about the accent work here?

[Josh Bearman]

Well, I was. There was a little bit of, like, they step off the boat and open their mouths, and so I thought it was coming on strong, but you say it's spot on.

[Gia Tolentino]

I grew up in Texas. I went to school at the University of Virginia. This exact kind of family is as familiar to me as the back of my hand. I was legitimately. You know, this is, as the kids say, but I was literally screaming.

[Josh Bearman]

How was your flight?

[Michelle Monahan]

We flew over the North Pole.

[Gia Tolentino]

So Jason Isaacs in Parker Posey play Timothy and Victoria Ratliff. Victoria, the mom, just seems to really be on a steady drip of lorazepam. That part at dinner where she's like, scratch my arm, Mom.

[Josh Bearman]

Mom, you were asleep.

[Gia Tolentino]

Scratch my arm.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay.

[Gia Tolentino]

Feels so good. There are three impeccably named adult children are Saxon, played by Patrick Schwarzenegger. Piper, played by Sarah Catherine Hook. Piper, incredible name. Today she would be Hadley, but this girl this age is Piper and Lachlan, played by Sam Navola. They normally vacation in the Caribbean. They are in Thailand because Piper is a senior at Chapel Hill. She's writing a thesis on Buddhism. And Parker Posey's character also went to Chapel Hill. Lachlan is deciding whether to go to Duke or Chapel Hill. The oldest son went to Duke, as did the dad. This is a classic sort of house divided. Victoria assures the sort of very funny staff member named Pam who's assigned to them. There's the part where she's like, how good for you. How good for you.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, how wonderful for you.

[Gia Tolentino]

But she assures them they're a totally normal family, which. Yeah, you know, why not?

[Josh Bearman]

We are a normal family. I like them. They have to assure strangers.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Not only normal, but also kind of the best. Clearly they're invested in that idea. They're. All the men are upset about there not being sort of wifi privileges in the vill.

[Josh Bearman]

What's the WI fi?

[Michelle Monahan]

Oh, yeah, we don't actually have WI fi in the Villas. Okay.

[Gia Tolentino]

I think it's a great idea. The only people I want to see are right here and here.

[Michelle Monahan]

Honey, I just. I'm sick of these phones.

[Josh Bearman]

It's not realistic. We will be keeping the phones, Pam.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay.

[Gia Tolentino]

But it probably would have been better for the father if he had just locked up that phone. Because at some point in the episode he gets like the nightmare call from a journalist being like, hi, we're trying to close this story in two days and we need to know, can you give me a call back as soon as possible? Nightmare call that. It sounds like he deserves it every way.

[Josh Bearman]

As journalists, we know as the subject should not answer that call if we can't reach you. It's better for you.

[Gia Tolentino]

I'm actually astonished he called that guy back.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes. Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like he wouldn't have called like, if in real life. Right.

[Josh Bearman]

If he knew what it was about or even had any inclination.

[Gia Tolentino]

There is this immediate sort of psychosexual.

[Michelle Monahan]

Thing.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. Bizarre.

[Gia Tolentino]

Where like there's three bedrooms and they're trying to decide like, where they're going to distribute the two kids. And Saxon tells Piper, like, he can't stay with you because you have full grown genitals.

[Josh Bearman]

Now there's this like gender breakdown also in the family where the women went.

[Gia Tolentino]

To Chapel Hill and there's clearly like a sort of gendered thing. It's like, are you going to fall in line with the Alphas because of the profoundly disturbing end of the episode where you think that Saxon is about to just watch porn, you know, jerk off in front of his little brother to show him, like, what you're supposed to do with the penis. Like I honestly thought he was going to do. And I'm just very glad we didn't.

[Josh Bearman]

Have to, you know, witness that.

[Gia Tolentino]

I'm not like a squeamish person, but I probably would rather not see, you know, incest. See the incest get. I'd rather see it get paced out teaspoon by teaspoon as it is going to, presumably throughout the season, rather than get it all at once in episode one.

[Josh Bearman]

So next we have Jacqueline, Laurie and Kate.

[Michelle Monahan]

To Thailand to monkeys. To self care and a week of new memories.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes, they're, you know, three tight girlfriends all the way through basically their young adult life and they've stayed friends and now they're getting their long awaited vacation together. And this also is a really great complex of characters that is so much is. Is laid out in just their first real introduction. And of course, by the way, what could go wrong when three longtime girlfriends go on vacation?

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I could go on this for an hour. There is objectively unequal distribution of power and ability and money, really. I mean, like, and the ability to move in the world where it's kind of, I mean, Carrie Coon Is gorgeous. But they're kind of trying to. She is styled, and she's supposed to.

[Josh Bearman]

Be the dowdy one.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's supposed to be the dowdy one, which is crazy. Cause it's Carrie Coon, but, you know, she's very clearly positioned that way. And the other two look like the movie stars that they are the entire time, are styled as such, have gotten, as they admit, impeccable work at their prestige, unnamed doctors or whatever. But the dynamic between women that are trying so hard to not admit that there is tension and competitiveness in any way is one of the funniest things to watch, if not necessarily to experience in the world. Can't wait to see what happens.

[Josh Bearman]

I'm like, how is it gonna go down? And how does the tape play for it? And also, you can kind of see. I feel like you can roll the tape back even, right? And see that, like. Oh, in high school, the distribution of power and social currency was present then too, right?

[Michelle Monahan]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

The moment that I found most painful about the dynamic between the three women is when they are trying to complain about their lives. And Jacqueline is saying she can't have a bad day in public anymore. And Kate is saying she doesn't know if someone really likes me for me. I mean, I think I'm cool, but what if they just want to board or whatever? And they're just reassuring each other back and forth like, we're so lucky. We're so lucky. And nothing is. You know. If there's anything worse than people, like, being huge assholes, it's people being huge assholes while insisting they are so lucky and so grateful. Like, that is an echelon of pure sort of madness and cringe that I hope this season pushes into so hard. Cause it makes me want to die. Lastly, we've got Chelsea and Rick, who I love immediately. Chelsea's played by Amylou Wood. Rick is played by the iconic Walton Goggins, giving so much. Walton Goggins.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. You need to sort your shit out. You've got issues.

[Josh Bearman]

I've got issues. Mm. You're the one who's crazy.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's a former yoga teacher, just along for the ride, trying to get him to relax, Being like, should we get fucked up? Should we try some Tantric? Would you like that? And he's just so angry the whole time. And so they get into. You know. Finally he gets sick of her, kicks her to the bar. One of the last scenes of the episode, she befriends another girlfriend, another beautiful girlfriend of an older man. And they decide to get drunk together and they talk about all the bald white men that are in Thailand. And we sort of pan around to the respective bald white men and then to this specific one.

[Josh Bearman]

Who is Greg, Tanya's husband.

[Gia Tolentino]

The employee of Black Lives Matter.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes, exactly.

[Gia Tolentino]

Bureau of Land Management. He's here. Did we find out exactly what the shady thing going on? Was he trying to kill her for insurance money?

[Josh Bearman]

I. Well, they're married, so he would inherit the money, presumably. And I don't know if it's ever explicitly revealed that they had sort of.

[Gia Tolentino]

A profit sharing agreement with the gays.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes, we are assuming that's my assumption. Maybe we will find out otherwise.

[Gia Tolentino]

And he's been living in Thailand for a year. We learned that from Chloe, the girlfriend.

[Josh Bearman]

And it's, you know, Thailand is the type of place to sort of, you know, disappear with your money. Which, by the way, is. I'm wondering what you make of Walton's quest. Like what? He's. He's here for some reason. He was arrested. He can't go to Australia.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

He's got enough money to be there. What is his.

[Gia Tolentino]

I have no idea. Do you?

[Josh Bearman]

I don't know either.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, you should know. This is your guy.

[Josh Bearman]

I know, I know, I know.

[Gia Tolentino]

Look within yourself.

[Josh Bearman]

Imagining myself as him. I can a lot of scenarios where I'd wind up there. I have no idea. I have a hunch that's probably going to be wrong, that there's some sordid business past.

[Gia Tolentino]

So I know you have a theory.

[Josh Bearman]

About the white lotus, the metathesis.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. What is your meta thesis about white lotus?

[Josh Bearman]

Well, I have a thesis about season one which now relates to season three. And so I feel sort of semi vindicated so far, but I feel like season one is, despite the kind of surface level dealing in ideas of wealth and privilege and so on, that it actually was this kind of Buddhist parable. It's about how basically everybody is wrestling with their own internal suffering and they're all unhappy. Even Shane, the rich guy, right. Who's like, we're in the wrong suite. We need the pineapple suite. And you think he's the villain, but it's just that he's on vacation and he also can't be happy. Right. Like upstairs or downstairs, everybody is like having this internal suffering and they don't know where to find meaning or happiness. Right. That's what everybody's kind of looking for and they don't even realize it. And then over the course of that season, the only people who get off the wheel are Armand because He dies with a smile on his face.

[Gia Tolentino]

You could call it that. Sure.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. I mean, he starts quoting Tennyson about death is the end of life and all this stuff. And you see him kind of, like, let go, basically, of himself. And then Quinn the son communes with nature. The guy's addicted to his phone and porn, and he communes with nature and sees a whale and then gets on the boat and all of a sudden just escapes. That's the only way out, basically, is to, like, dive into the ocean. Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

But. Sorry, your theory is that the real sort of thematic subtext is that desire is the thing that causes suffering?

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. I mean, well, that's the nature of Buddhism. Right. The Four Noble Truths. The first one is all life is suffering, and the second one is suffering is caused by needs or attachments or desires. And so that is. I feel like what season one is actually about kind of underneath that.

[Gia Tolentino]

But season two is too. I mean, my argument is that, like, all plots are about this. That desire is what gives something. Stakes. And the thing that. That instigates the plot.

[Michelle Monahan]

Right.

[Josh Bearman]

Everybody has to have needs, and the.

[Gia Tolentino]

Needs are what puts the spikes in the plot, you know, But. Right. It's interesting because now we are in the home of this ideology.

[Josh Bearman]

Now we're in a place where it's like the whole country's like this blank canvas for people's spiritual seeking. And it's a Buddhist country.

[Gia Tolentino]

That seems to be the difference, that the hotel is configured around awareness and spirituality and gratitude really overtly. You know, I mean, it was interesting. The part of the Buddhist writing that Piper is listening to on audiobook is about identity being a prison. That we build a prison, we step into it, we lock it.

[Michelle Monahan]

Identity is a prison. No one is spared this prison. Rich man, poor man, success or failure. We build the prison, lock ourselves inside, then throw away the key.

[Josh Bearman]

The guy says, identity is a prison. I think that is. That's what the show is about. Okay. That's the. Yeah, that is the heavenly.

[Gia Tolentino]

I mean, we're supposed to take it as that.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. And then. And he says, no one is spared. Rich, poor, whatever. And I think that that is why I feel like that's what is happening in season one, too. And in that respect, I think in general, Mike is very sympathetic to all the characters. There are no real villains. Nobody is a bad person.

[Gia Tolentino]

But this time, there's someone with a gun. There might be. You know what I mean?

[Josh Bearman]

Yes. Right. It's gonna. Well, yes, exactly. This time it's gonna be on purpose. Somebody's Gonna be killed on purpose. Yeah. Or perhaps. But even so, I think that whatever motivations, whatever happens that leads people to that place, I feel like the show and Mike is fundamentally sympathetic to that because it's all born out of whatever vulnerability and human frailties that people have that lead them to question themselves, to worry about who they are and what is meaningful. Even in this episode of the family and the three women, at a certain point, they catalog what they have. They all catalog what they have. So, you know, like, it's gonna get. Something's gonna get lost. Right. And then we're gonna see what happens.

[Michelle Monahan]

Your kids are gorgeous, your beautiful homes, your totally winning life. Well, look at you now. You found the man of your dreams. Oh, my God. Who would have ever thought, right?

[Gia Tolentino]

I think there's also something funny happening in the writing too, which is like being aware of something is not morally additive necessarily. Right. Like, there's this strange weight placed on, like, okay, like, being self aware or just being aware of suffering, of privilege or whatever, that's seen as somehow redemptive, when in fact, it's not. You can be completely aware and still be doing the same.

[Josh Bearman]

In fact, it can be self justifying.

[Gia Tolentino]

Exactly. Yeah. And I feel that there is something funny going on in the writing where previously the characters were often not self aware, they were taking their experiences for granted, the ability to be at these gorgeous places. And they're more sort of aware and self conscious here, perhaps because they've chosen to go to a place that's kind of wellness and awareness focused. And I think that that will be like, this kind of growing tension and joke in the writing where everyone is so aware of their blessings, and it makes them actually so much worse. Now we have the pleasure of talking to Michelle Monahan, who plays Jacqueline Lemon, famous TV star on the show.

[Michelle Monahan]

So excited to be here, you guys.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, my gosh.

[Michelle Monahan]

Just being here with the three of us, I'm in heaven. I would sleep in a tree.

[Gia Tolentino]

Michelle, your character comes with a backstory that is supposed to be immediately legible to the viewer and is. You're a big star. The owner of the hotel is dying to meet you. I wanted to ask you, what are the pleasures as a movie star of playing a movie star? Like, what does that allow you to get to do?

[Michelle Monahan]

Well, I'll tell you what, I don't know if there were any pleasures in reading that I was gonna be playing someone that was famous, that's a te. Television star. In fact, if anything, it felt like it hit a little too close to Home. It felt a little confronting because I was like, wait, how do I play something that, on paper appears so close to me in terms of the job? Right. So the initial fear of reading that, that was my career, I was like, oh, gosh, this feels a little meta. But after I got beyond the idea that she was this actress, which of course, I could relate to very much, it was really just getting to kind of discover all of the, you know, complexities of her, which are obviously well beyond, you know, who I am or anything like that.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

Tell us, as you read through all the scripts, what were the. Those nuances that emerged for you, that deepened the part for you and showed you the specificity of who Jacqueline was going to be? And specifically, that was not you. Right.

[Michelle Monahan]

I think that, you know, was. Was interesting to me was this idea that she, you know, she has these lifelong best friends, and she wanted to take them on vacation. You. And I feel like she kind of felt like she owes it to her girlfriends that maybe they're not in that position to be able to do that. And I think that at the same time, while she was excited to kind of foot the bill to kind of fund this girl's trip, that maybe she secretly liked as well, to have the upper hand and how she kind of manipulates that a little bit. And I think that's something that Mike obviously writes with such nuance and such subtext, but I think that he really wanted us to lean into that kind of that ever evolving power dynamic, this idea that one's kind of the perpetrator, one's the peacemaker, one's the victim, and it's constantly shifting, right. And so kind of finding our respective roles in each of those dynamics and kind of how that plays out and that kind of shifts. And I think that she. Jacqueline, likes to appear to be in control, you know, but I think at the same time, she really wants to just be reckless and to kind of lose control. So I think there's a real duality to her and definitely a duplicity that we start to see. We get to see in her as the show progresses. And that's the beautiful gray area of all the characters, right? Is that they all are a little bit duplicitous. And certainly this season's theme, which is sort of spirituality and life and death, you really see every character being confronted with that existential kind of crisis of like, who am I? What am I doing here? But I think, you know, what's really relatable with the three ladies is this the way that we explore the way that we've been kind of conditioned as women to compare ourselves to one another, to judge ourselves. This thing that we're always confronted with our own life's choices and questioning our very lives based on other women's sort of failures or successes. And so I really love that idea of that, because even though it's heightened, of course, in White Lotus, I think it's something that we can all relate to as women, specifically, completely. The grass is always, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've all seen relationships like that. We've all been in situations like that. It's just very relatable.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. There's something in there about. The three of them have been friends for so long that any decision that any one of them makes, it's personal to the other two. It's somehow a referendum, it's somehow a judgment. Some shadow is cast over the other two, no matter what.

[Michelle Monahan]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what's so brilliant, what, you know, what Mike did. And I think in my conversations with him, kind of building out the characters and stuff, you know, his inspiration really was, you know, I think he was a sidekick to a vacation that he went on that he witnessed, like, a lot of this kind of behavior or just sort of these comparisons, and he was like, man, it's rough out there being a woman, you know, and, like, no kidding, man. And so these women are all kind of mirrors to each other, right? You know, they have this shared history, right. The shared past. And. And then, of course, they grow up, and their lives take very different directions and different paths. They live in different cities. And then, you know, you can't help but look at, like, one path and go, God, that. That sounds like. That looks pretty good. Like, looks like she kind of just fucking nailed it. You know, she's got everything. She's got it all. That plays out really intensely in this dynamic, in this girls trip, and that question of, like, trying to have it all or, like, oh, no, no. And I did this. This. This. This toxic positivity and this quest for perfectionism that we have as women.

[Gia Tolentino]

I'm nodding along except you, Jack.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You look amazing.

[Michelle Monahan]

You look amazing, but you look incredible. You look incredible.

[Josh Bearman]

We've been debating what the relationship between the three women was as girls in high school or junior high. Was Jacqueline sort of the queen bee, and the other two are vying for her attention. Are they all on an equal playing field? And now because of her career, she's sort of emerged on top.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Michelle Monahan]

I mean, I think we spoke a lot about that. I think Mike had some interesting inspiration. You know, sometimes he just tells it like it is, but, you know, he really wanted the ladies. And I say this is a quote from Mike to all look like a big blonde blob. He really wanted us, like, baseline, to really feel like we were kind of interchangeable. Right. Despite then the nuance that we all sort of develop in mind together. You know, initially I would say that, you know, probably we all sort of looked the same when we were younger. And then all of a sudden, maybe Jacqueline was starting to be perceived as kind of this beautiful person, and then that kind of ruffled some feathers, and she started to be maybe put on a pedestal, you know, from probably her junior high or high school. And, you know, kind of went on to have this as an actor. And for Jacqueline, I mean, I think she sort of. She has a love hate relationship with being put on a pedestal. But I suppose the only thing that could be worse than being on the pedestal is not being put on a pedestal. You know, I think that she has a real. She's very conflicted in the way that she, you know, wants attention and that what drives her. And I'm sure that there was a lot of deep rooted sort of things that kind of took place for all of them. I think there were some things in high school that maybe Jacqueline did that they'll never forgive her for. I think there are some things that maybe then those patterns continue to maybe rear their ugly head. But then I think one of the other things that's interesting that Mike delves into is the way that we remember things.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, and you were like, this shows up in the first episode when the women are watching the mask performance.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know what this reminds me of.

[Michelle Monahan]

When we did that sketch in school and we were all one person, and Jacqueline, of course, was the face.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And we hid behind you, and I.

[Michelle Monahan]

Had my hands and some shoes, and I was your feet and I was arms.

[Gia Tolentino]

They all have clearly this ingrained memory of having been sort of sub, you know, of Jacqueline as the star and the face. And they're like, we were here.

[Josh Bearman]

Jacqueline's like, I don't remember.

[Michelle Monahan]

Oh, of course. You're the pretty face.

[Gia Tolentino]

And Jacqueline was like, what?

[Josh Bearman]

What are you talking?

[Gia Tolentino]

Left an impact on them. And Jacqueline's like, oh, I think that's.

[Josh Bearman]

The clue that she was the preeminent one. She doesn't remember this performance.

[Michelle Monahan]

That's the. Like, they're like, what are you talking about? Like, that's not at all how that happened. And then you're looking at the other one. Like, are you kidding me? No, it happened this way. And then we're all completely stumped because we don't know what the reality is. And I think that was really a great way that Mike was able to kind of infuse that kind of confusion and that, like, you don't know who to kind of even root for at that point. And so there's like, some. Everyone's bringing a little bit of their baggage. And so the way that Mike uses those conversations, but they're gossiping about one another, and one leaves the room and so gooey and juicy and gossipy, but it's sort of that faux. That faux care, right? That faux. Like that toxic positivity. Like, oh, I know. I just love her so much.

[Josh Bearman]

You know, we were discussing this.

[Gia Tolentino]

We were talking about it yesterday, and I was like, this is deeply familiar to me as a woman of the framework that this sort of. When one person leaves the room or when you're on a side chat, where it's like, there is a specifically feminized way of laundering the most unkind impulses through the most kind language.

[Michelle Monahan]

That's a deep statement right there.

[Gia Tolentino]

And it's just like, I just want her to be happy. And you're just saying that meanest shit.

[Michelle Monahan]

So good. I mean, I remember reading those lines, and it was so wild. Actually, that scene, I think, was in our audition for the show. And I remember, you know, we got three scenes, and he asked me to specifically audition for the role of Jacqueline and Leslie for Kate and then, of course, Carrie for Laurie. However, he had a really unique way of auditioning. He had me say a lot of Kate and Laurie lines, and then he had them actually say a lot of, like, Jacqueline and Kate lines. And then, like, you know, he mixed it all up because he wanted us all to kind of share the same qualities again. Again, like, it was such a unique. And. And so when we got the role, I was like, we all kind of got the material. And we were all like, oh, we're so confused, Mike. We thought. We thought, you know, Jacqueline was saying this line.

[Josh Bearman]

We thought.

[Michelle Monahan]

We thought this was good Kate's storyline. And he was like, no, I just wanted to see you all like this. And I was like, oh, my gosh. You know, there's such a method to his madness.

[Gia Tolentino]

That's incredible. Yeah.

[Michelle Monahan]

His process is so wild. It's so cool.

[Josh Bearman]

It's interesting in this episode is when we're getting to know all the three ladies. I think Laurie, Carrie, Coon says It's like we're all mirrors.

[Michelle Monahan]

It's like I'm looking in a mirror. That's right. I look at you two, it's like I'm looking in a mirror.

[Josh Bearman]

Well, and that's the thing. I feel like it makes that sense. She's talking about in the youth, right? When you're kind of learning who you are and your friends do mirror you and you discover who you are by the mirroring of social life with your deepest friends. But then as you get older, the mirror means something different. It's like mirror, mirror on the wall. Right. It's the trick.

[Michelle Monahan]

Mirro, the trick mirror.

[Josh Bearman]

And so then now the mirror is actually a comparative mirror, and it's telling you something different about yourself by the gaze at your friends. Right. And then that's what starts to unfold throughout. And you see all that just in that one or two scenes. It's so well drawn.

[Gia Tolentino]

So I think we're close to running out of time, but I have a dumb question, if you will humor me. I love dumb questions.

[Michelle Monahan]

It's really. No dumb question.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, we've been debating.

[Josh Bearman]

It's the key question.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's the key question, really here. Extremely curious about what Jacqueline Lemon's show is.

[Josh Bearman]

It's never stated, right?

[Gia Tolentino]

It hasn't been stated yet. But, like, what are we talking here? Like, is there is.

[Michelle Monahan]

So it's really funny, Mike, really, you know, that everybody kind of wanted to know what that. What it was.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

Is she a lawyer? Alzheimer's.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right. Is it like a Grey's Anatomy vibe? Like, is it 24?

[Michelle Monahan]

It's so funny. Like, Mike made a conscious choice, like, not. Not to decide what it was, and he didn't want me to decide what it was either, really. Which I was like, wow. Yeah. And it was a question that I got from all of the cast, I think, at one point. And I was like, what show is Jacqueline on? You know, because it's obviously everybody recognizes from the show. And I was like, doesn't matter, does it?

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, but so it didn't matter. Like, you were able to let it be a blob. You didn't get to know she was, you know, Homeland or, you know.

[Michelle Monahan]

Exactly, exactly. You know, And I think that sort of helps too, being an actor. Actress, where it's like, I get people that come up to me all the time and they're like, are you on that?

[Gia Tolentino]

That.

[Michelle Monahan]

What is that? And I can. I can look them up and down in a split second, and I'll be like. I'll be like, Maid of honor, Right? And they'll be like, you know, they're like, yes, yes. And I'll be like, source code.

[Gia Tolentino]

They're like, yes.

[Michelle Monahan]

I love that movie. You know, I think of that kind of action where they kind of can't put their finger on it, what it was.

[Gia Tolentino]

But you can read, like.

[Michelle Monahan]

But they can read. But I can read them. You know, it's. So it's starting story time. Interesting.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Michelle Monahan]

So that wasn't really imperative.

[Gia Tolentino]

So maybe I'll.

[Michelle Monahan]

Maybe it'll reveal itself. But I remember finally, you know, I asked my. Towards the end, because the cast wouldn't give up on it, and he was.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, I don't know.

[Michelle Monahan]

Doesn't matter. And I was like, you're right. It doesn't matter, dude.

[Gia Tolentino]

Michelle, thank you so much for talking to us. It was such a pleasure.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes, thank you.

[Michelle Monahan]

Thank you. Thanks to everyone for tuning in. It's a really fun ride. Enjoy the rest of the season.

[Gia Tolentino]

So, Josh, what do you think the show that Jacqueline stars in is? Is it a Grey's Anatomy? Is it a Good Wife?

[Josh Bearman]

I think she is the newly elevated head of a spy agency.

[Gia Tolentino]

Spy.

[Josh Bearman]

And she finds out that there's a subversive element within the agency, and she has to root it out by herself.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, Great. We're gonna pitch this.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, exactly. We've developed this. We're gonna. Well, we're gonna. We'll pitch it to Bernad.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, pitch it to Bernad.

[Josh Bearman]

Our next guest is Dave Bernad, the executive producer of White Lotus and an old pal of mine. I'm looking forward to chatting with him. All right, we're now joined by White Lotus ep Dave Burnett.

[Dave Burnett]

Good to see you.

[Josh Bearman]

How's it going?

[Dave Burnett]

This is a dream, Josh, to be.

[Josh Bearman]

Interviewed by you at long last.

[Dave Burnett]

It's taken me 20 years.

[Gia Tolentino]

Have you guys been friends for 20 years?

[Josh Bearman]

Almost. Yeah. That's how I got a free trip to Thailand.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay, so let's talk about Thailand. Was it always the plan to come here for season three?

[Dave Burnett]

No. At the very beginning, if I had to bet money we were going to end up in Japan. And I think Mike and I have always had just a deep appreciation and kind of love of Japanese culture and Japan in general. And when we set out to, we were going to go scout Japan, and HBO said to us, you know, can you just check out one other country? And so when you kind of boil down the list of Southeast Asian countries that have a rebate and have, like, a crew base and are film friendly and the weather worked for our dates, it was really only Thailand, so. So we said, okay, let's scout Thailand first. We'll appease hbo, and then we'll go on to Japan. And a fun fact is, Mike, who was twice on the Amazing Race, had been eliminated twice, and both times the elimination station was in Koh Samui. So Mike always had this kind of aversion to Thailand. So I would never, ever have thought we'd end up in Thailand.

[Josh Bearman]

When we started, we were talking about this, and you were saying that you were originally drawn to Japan, but to place the story there juxtaposes the cultures differently. Like, the culture of Japan is so specific that you kind of have to embed the characters and how they're relating to Japanese culture, whereas Thailand is a more sort of neutral territory for visitors to come, and they don't have to navigate the local culture in the same way.

[Dave Burnett]

Yeah, we started off in Bangkok, and then we went from Bangkok to Phuket to Krabi and then up to Chiang Mai. I think we just discovered just how incredibly beautiful the culture is in Thailand. And Buddhism and also the warmth of the people can't be understated. And I think the real turning point for us was we were in Chiang Mai and Mike had bronchitis, and he ended up in the hospital. We were supposed to fly to Chiang Rai, and we ended up staying a couple extra days there in Chiang Mai. And we put Mike on this nebulizer, which I guess is like a really strong steroid. And he.

[Josh Bearman]

I never heard of a nebulizer.

[Gia Tolentino]

You never had to do one for your baby?

[Josh Bearman]

No.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's like this little inhaler mask.

[Josh Bearman]

Oh. Oh, wow.

[Dave Burnett]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

Okay.

[Dave Burnett]

And he ended up hallucinating, and he hallucinated the season. And he came in. He got out of the hospital. Yeah. Came into. He came to the van. I was there. And he goes, I had the most vivid dreams last night. I was on this steroid, and I couldn't sleep. And he told me what he dreamt, and that is what we shot. It is almost exactly that.

[Josh Bearman]

It came to him as a vision.

[Gia Tolentino]

Josh, should we do recreational nebulizers?

[Josh Bearman]

Yes. Seriously, this is the breakthrough we might need. I have vivid dreams already. Do I need to be writing them down?

[Dave Burnett]

Yes, you should. And I think the way I remember him telling me just how incredibly well he was treated by the nurses and how much they cared about him, and he just kind of fell in love with Thailand. And when we left Thailand to fly to Japan, I was like, oh, yeah, we're going to end up shooting in Thailand, and we got to Japan. And I think kind of to your point, the interest of the show is never to look down or make fun of local culture. And I think Japanese culture is so specific and it's so beautiful. And I think to do a show set in Japan, you're going to end up getting into things we didn't want to get into, where Thailand is really about Buddhism, and Buddhism itself kind of permeates everywhere in our experience. And I think that just felt like a more ripe place to kind of investigate Eastern versus Western philosophies.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, well, every season and its themes end up connecting to the setting in a particular way. Could you talk more about how this season's themes came to sort of coalesce around Thailand?

[Dave Burnett]

Yeah, I think since I've known Mike, and I've known Mike 20 years too, he's always been interested in Buddhism. Something that's come up a lot. He's read a lot, lot. So I think for us, once we got there, the Buddhist ideals and kind of Buddhist storytelling was something that was already in his head. As we traveled around, you kind of realized how if you're going to do something in Thailand, that's going to be a subject matter you're going to have to tackle. So I think thematically, he was already in. And then before Mike starts writing, he goes and lives. He lived in Sicily for three or four months. He lived in Thailand for three or four months. And he kind of went around and investigated different cities and local culture, and he met a lot of really interesting people. And I think through those travels, kind of, he pulled out some of the thematic ideas and he met a couple funny characters and he had a little adventure. And I think that led to some of the stories in the show.

[Josh Bearman]

Well, it's interesting that Thailand was the second thought, because the sort of defining thing about visiting Thailand is the Buddhist culture. Was the Buddhism there when you were also thinking about Japan, or did it really come to the surface in this dream? By the way, G wants to know exactly what was in the nebulizer.

[Dave Burnett]

Mike's gonna have to answer that, but I would say we were very ignorant about Thailand, and that's what's so exciting about the show. In Thailand, they call it soft power. And soft power is this idea of them trying to figure out how to export Thai culture. Because really, what Americans know about Thailand is probably from the hangover. And it's this idea of it's a party country of, like, sex tourism, which that's not what Thailand is, obviously. And for us, we Were kind of ignorant. In the second you land, the second you get in there and you really immerse yourself, you realize just how beautiful Thailand is. So it kind of just really coalesced in a natural way, you know, similar to Sicily. We were never going to. I would have bet money we were going to shoot in France. And we were in Sicily, and we were at a hotel, and there's all these heads everywhere. And we asked the guy, what are these heads? And he told us a story about this Moorish soldier who came and fell in love with a local Sicilian woman. And the woman found out that he had a lover back home, and she chopped his head off. And that's what those heads represent is this kind of story about jealousy and infidelity and kind of the history and culture of Sicily. And once we heard that story, I think that opened up what Mike wanted to write in a similar way to us. Traveling around Thailand opened up this idea of doing a season about Buddhism on the beauty of Thailand.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, and as Josh has been talking about with his private theory about the show, I mean, the entire show has, in a way, been about desire being the thing that drives people to suffering. And so here you really get it full force.

[Josh Bearman]

I know. I feel very vindicated now. You know, my whole thesis about season one is Buddha's parable. And then as season three is unfolding, I was like, aha, here it is now on the surface.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay, so I think we knew. People knew coming into the season that Natasha Rothbaugh was gonna come back. We were gonna get Belinda. But it comes as a shock. In the first episode when Greg is one of the many white bald men sitting at the White Lotus. He made it to three. At what point did y'all know that Greg was gonna be. Or Gary, perhaps I should say, at what point did y'all know he was gonna be in this season?

[Dave Burnett]

I think right away. I mean, again, if you had told me that John Grice would still be in the show, season three, when we were shooting season one, I would never have believed you. But John's amazing. He's an amazing actor, amazing human being. And I think Mike immediately had this idea of how to keep Jennifer Coolidge's story going in a way that would surprise audiences. For Mike, the Tanya storyline has evolved as kind of a through line. And he had this brilliant idea of how to keep that storyline in the show. And once we knew Natasha was in, Mike had the brilliant idea of bringing Greg back and seeing what happens when those two cross.

[Gia Tolentino]

So I've got a Question. You know, the White Lotus is one of the best shows to play the Sex and the City who Are youe on the show game. And I've been discussing it with Josh ad nauseam. Well, first, can you guess which character Josh identifies with the most on this season?

[Dave Burnett]

Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay, who is it?

[Dave Burnett]

It's Walton Goggins, of course.

[Gia Tolentino]

Can you guess who Dave identifies with the most?

[Josh Bearman]

That's a good question. Probably also Walton Goggins.

[Gia Tolentino]

Is that the correct answer, I wonder.

[Dave Burnett]

Well, it's funny because if you spend enough time with Mike, you're going to end up as a character in one of his movies or shows because he's always paying attention and he's really good at picking up on funny moments. You don't even realize he's paying attention. There's a lot of me, I think, in the show that or I'm a narcissist and I just projecting you're distributed amongst. There is definitely one line in there that I told him as an anecdote. When we were in Bangkok, I had gone out for drinks with someone and she told me that the women in Bangkok call these bald men LBHs, losers back home. So I went back and told Mike the next day, which I was really excited when that ended up in the script.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, you'll notice a lot of bald white guys in Thailand. Yeah, the locals call them LBHs, losers back home.

[Gia Tolentino]

Ah.

[Josh Bearman]

I have a question for you about how the show's very unusual in that you have the pilot does give you obviously a hint of something bad happens. The first one, it's fairly mild in number two, well, probably foul play. And then in this one now, you know, there's gunfire, there's like intentional violence coming. And so it's kind of like ratcheting up what the stakes are going to likely be from the cold open, basically. But then season one is very simple ultimately. Right. The whole action is motivated by they got the wrong hotel room. And then in season two, there is like a murder plot and stuff that happens. So in season three, is this plot wise gonna be more complicated? Like, what's. Where's this headed?

[Dave Burnett]

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting. When we were making the show, HBO picked the show up very quickly in July of 2020 and said, can you get a show shot this year that can be out in 21? And Mike and I had sold and thought about multiple versions of a travel show that examine upstairs downstairs life and the resort culture and colonialism. And Mike started writing really quickly. And then the idea of the murder Plot was something that came later. That was never the idea of the show. It was always kind of these really specific characters kind of interacting with each other and examining more existential ideas. So this idea of a plotty show was never something that we set out to make. And even when we were cutting season one, I remember we got this note about the end of the pilot returning to the dead body to remind people that there's a dead body. And I remember talking with Mike about it, and he was like, I don't think people are really going to care about that. They're going to forget that the dead body exists. That's not really focus of the show. And obviously, for some people, that's a big part of the show, and they're hooked into that. So season one is really just like, as you said, a lot of people sitting around a table, talking. Part of that was because of the. We had to shoot that in a bubble. We couldn't leave the hotel. And that was partly why the show was so contained. Season 2 is really a bedroom farce. And I think Mike, who's brilliant with plotting and brilliant at writing Soap, and I mean that as a compliment, he's like, how do I escalate this and make this a really fun bedroom farce? And I think after the success of season two, he's like, how do I make this even bigger? That's what led us to that. And the nebulizer is what led us to season three. It's also funny. Even in season two, when we started shooting, we were still in the throes of COVID so we were slightly contained. And this is the first time we've made the show with kind of nothing holding us back. This was a massive production. We were in so many six cities or something and constantly moving and so many hotels. And I think he kind of wanted to challenge us to kind of go bigger.

[Gia Tolentino]

Getting a vision through a nebulizer. After bronchitis. After bronchitis. It sounds like a plot on White Lotus, you know?

[Dave Burnett]

I know.

[Gia Tolentino]

Dave, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

[Dave Burnett]

No, of course. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you guys for doing this.

[Josh Bearman]

That's been fun.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, it has been so fun. Thanks to our guests Michelle Monahan and David Bernat, and to all of you guys listening. We'll see you next time. The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman. Natalia Winkelman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Piccillo and Aaliyah Papes. At Campside Media are executive producers Josh Dean, sound design and mix by Bart Warshaw. At Cocoon Audio for the HBO podcast team are executive producers Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen Sorokach and producer Kenya Reyes. The official White Lotus Podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch. Every great getaway deserves a wardrobe to match. That's where Abercrombie and Fitch comes in. Their long weekend collection keeps you stylish at every event from weddings to brunch, featuring mila dresses and the A and F Collins suit in athletic or slim fit to suit any height. For your next vacay, keep the plot twist minimal and the style top notch. Pack your bags with Abercrombie and Fitch.