Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood

Summary

The White Lotus Official Podcast – Episode 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” Featuring Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood

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Episode Overview

In Episode 3 of The White Lotus Official Podcast, hosts Gia Tolentino and Josh Berryman delve deep into the intricacies of season three’s episode titled “The Meaning of Dreams.” Released on March 3, 2025, this episode features insightful discussions with cast members Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood, unraveling the layers of symbolism, character development, and thematic elements that drive the narrative forward.

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Key Themes and Symbolism

The Tsunami Dream

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the episode's opening scene—a vivid tsunami dream experienced by a character. Gia remarks, “I thought it was gorgeous” (03:10), highlighting the dual nature of the dream as both anxiety-inducing and comforting. Amy adds, “It’s like, well, we’re doomed, but we’re together” (03:12), emphasizing the juxtaposition of impending doom and familial bonds.

Control and Release: The Symbolism of Snakes

The episode heavily employs snake imagery, drawing parallels to the Garden of Eden narrative. Gia notes, “With the snakes in this episode... the Garden of Eden biblical stuff is getting more over” (20:14). Amy builds on this, stating, “There is maybe just the idea of, like, there is the pent-up chaos in the cage” (21:02). The release of snakes symbolizes the unleashing of repressed emotions and chaos, mirroring the characters' internal struggles.

Garden of Eden References

The podcast hosts draw connections between the show’s symbolism and biblical narratives. Gia explains, “In the myth of the Garden of Eden... the knowledge is poisonous to him” (22:22), linking Timothy’s desire for oblivion to the biblical fall from paradise.

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Character Analysis

Timothy’s Arc

Timothy’s journey is dissected extensively. The tsunami dream serves as a metaphor for his internal turmoil and lack of control. Gia questions, “Do you think that this is him standing there?... or is him running away from the tsunami?” (04:40). Amy interprets this as a “symbolic release of control” (05:26), illustrating Timothy’s struggle with his circumstances.

Saxon’s Family Dynamics

The tension between Saxon and his father, Lachlan, is another focal point. Gia observes, “He has turned narrowly privileged views on the world” (06:18), highlighting the strained relationship and underlying insecurities within the family structure.

Piper’s Spiritual Quest

Piper’s visit to the monastery is analyzed as a juxtaposition between her self-awareness and actual practice. Gia states, “She’s not apart from that” (08:22), pointing out Piper’s struggle to reconcile her perceived awareness with her actions in a spiritual setting.

Belinda’s Role

Belinda’s character is portrayed as a “slow burn,” with Walton expressing hope, “I hope you have good dreams of me and I will have good dreams of you” (10:02). This highlights her complex relationship with the spa and her role within the White Lotus ecosystem.

The Gossiping Trio: Jacqueline, Laurie, and Kate

The hosts critique the portrayal of gossip among the trio, particularly focusing on Kate’s revelation of voting for Trump. Gia emphasizes the societal commentary, “Politics has become its own religion” (14:00), showcasing how political affiliations impact personal relationships and perceptions.

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Interview with Cast Members

Walton Goggins as Rick

Walton delves into Rick’s character, describing him as “a person who has been running from his past for a very long time” (24:17). He discusses the challenges of portraying Rick’s isolation and bitterness, noting, “I couldn’t be around them. They didn’t understand why I was there” (24:22). Walton further explores the symbolism behind Rick releasing the snakes, interpreting it as a metaphor for his desire to be free and understood: “If I can help them, maybe somebody can help me” (29:35).

Aimee Lou Wood as Chelsea

Aimee discusses Chelsea’s astrological alignment, revealing, “Chelsea's fire... she's way more about feeling and passion” (34:03). She contrasts her character’s optimism and assertiveness with Rick’s somber demeanor, highlighting their complementary dynamics. Aimee also reflects on the snake motif within Chelsea’s narrative, connecting it to themes of vulnerability and hidden depths: “She has her own caged cobra in Rick” (42:25).

Dynamic Between Rick and Chelsea

The conversation shifts to the romantic development between Rick and Chelsea. Walton describes their meeting as a “soul connection” (32:07), while Aimee remarks on the authenticity of their relationship: “They come together and they see each other regardless of the difference between their ages” (27:30). Josh adds insight into Mike White’s optimistic vision for the characters, stating, “The surprise is like... she does just actually bloody love him” (38:16).

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Production Insights

Mike White’s Vision

The hosts and cast members discuss Mike White’s thematic intentions, particularly his incorporation of religious and biblical elements. Amy notes, “Mike grew up religious. His father was a minister” (21:06), explaining how these influences manifest in the show’s symbolism and character arcs.

Symbolism and Themes

The discussion highlights the pervasive themes of control, chaos, and the search for meaning. Gia draws parallels between the show’s narrative and classical mythologies, emphasizing the depth of the symbolic elements used to portray the characters' inner conflicts.

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Concluding Thoughts

Episode 3 of The White Lotus Official Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of “The Meaning of Dreams,” intertwining character analysis with thematic dissection. Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood provide personal insights into their roles, enriching the listeners’ understanding of the show’s nuanced storytelling. The episode underscores the intricate balance between external appearances and internal struggles, epitomized by the recurring snake motif and the characters' pursuit of control amidst chaos.

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Notable Quotes

• Gia Tolentino: “I thought it was gorgeous” (03:10)
• Amy Lou Wood: “It’s like, well, we’re doomed, but we’re together” (03:12)
• Walton Goggins: “Rick is a person who has been running from his past for a very long time” (24:17)
• Josh Berryman: “Politics has become its own religion” (14:00)
• Gia Tolentino: “The knowledge is poisonous to him” (22:22)
• Amy Lou Wood: “She has her own caged cobra in Rick” (42:25)

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Time Stamps Reference

• 03:10 - Opening discussion on the tsunami dream.
• 03:12 - Amy’s interpretation of the dream’s duality.
• 04:40 - Discussion on Timothy’s reaction to the tsunami.
• 05:26 - Symbolism of control and releasing electronics.
• 14:00 - Analysis of political themes and their impact.
• 21:02 - Garden of Eden symbols and chaos.
• 22:22 - Gia’s connection between biblical narratives and character motives.
• 24:17 - Walton on portraying Rick’s isolation.
• 27:08 - Amy on Rick and Chelsea’s relationship development.
• 29:35 - Walton’s insight into Rick releasing the snakes.
• 32:07 - Walton discussing Rick and Chelsea’s soul connection.
• 34:03 - Aimee on Chelsea’s astrological traits.
• 38:16 - Josh on Mike White’s optimistic portrayal of characters.
• 42:25 - Amy on Chelsea’s internal struggles mirrored in Rick.

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Conclusion

This detailed exploration of Episode 3, “The Meaning of Dreams,” offers a rich understanding of The White Lotus’s complex narrative tapestry. Through engaging discussions and cast interviews, the podcast unpacks the symbolic depths and character intricacies that make the series a compelling watch. Whether you're a long-time fan or a newcomer, this summary provides valuable insights into the show's profound themes and storytelling prowess.

Transcript

[Gia Tolentino]

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[Josh Berryman]

In your stillness, be aware of your sensations. What do you feel?

[Walton Goggins]

I don't know. Look, you seem like a really nice lady, but this is. This is not my thing.

[Josh Berryman]

Underneath anger, there's always a sadness. Something we are grieving. What are you grieving?

[Gia Tolentino]

Hello, and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.

[Amy Lee Wood]

And I'm Josh Berryman.

[Gia Tolentino]

And I'm. And later on, we're gonna be talking to our favorite couple, Rick and Chelsea Walton Goggins and Amy Lewood. Today, my question for you is, if you were a guest at the White Lotus, what would your sort of holistic goal be for the week? What kind of treatments would we be having?

[Amy Lee Wood]

Yeah, that's an easy one. My wellness goal would be, and is always to fight the monkey mind. Like, the serenity aspect.

[Gia Tolentino]

Serenity is your goal?

[Amy Lee Wood]

Meditation. The stillness. I have a hard time. My mind's always racing. So the monkey mind. Although it seems like it would be hard at the White Lotus because the place is full of these, like, malevolent macaques burying their fangs, like, off camera. But, yeah, that would be my goal.

[Gia Tolentino]

So you would put your phone in the pouch?

[Amy Lee Wood]

I'd put my phone in the pouch, yeah. Yes, I would. I'd take a deep breath and throw it right in the pouch.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Amy Lee Wood]

How about you?

[Gia Tolentino]

I mean, I need to quiet my mind. I would say that is also a constant need in my own life. No, but I'm like, I'm coming here. I'm being like, my goals are external. I'm trying to do yoga twice a day. I'm trying to be on the beach and get a nice tan. Mostly, I would just try to be reading and talking to no one and quieting my monkey mind in that sense. But I don't think I'd really be able to embrace the spiritual journey. I'd be just like, oh, my child's not here. I'm gonna.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right, right. That's your own form of therapy, is just having time to read a nice book. Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay, so episode three. The title is the Meaning of Dreams. As always, written and directed by Mike White. I love the way this one started.

[Amy Lee Wood]

With the tsunami dream.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. I thought it was gorgeous.

[Amy Lee Wood]

I felt that too. Where, like, it's an anxiety dream, but there's also something comforting about it. It's like, well, we're doomed, but we're together. Right. That was like, the atmospherics of the dream. And then when she wakes up, she relates it to the whole family as if she's not disturbed. Right. It's up for the viewer. We know that this is a bad omen, you know, the tsunami, the coming tsunami, which is coming for them, but she doesn't realize it yet. So for her, it was actually maybe a dream of comfort.

[Gia Tolentino]

Mm. Well, she also. I liked how you saw how she's not entirely straightforward with either her family, herself. She was like, a really intense dream, and I was like, well, you walked into a tsunami.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Is that all you faced the waves?

[Gia Tolentino]

She was like, it was dark. Our house was there. And I was like, and what else happened? So the tsunami being. At this point, the FBI is fully at Timothy's office.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right? Right. Yeah. He's in trouble.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's in trouble.

[Amy Lee Wood]

And then Lachlan has planted this idea with his tsunami videos, which. Then we'd see him showing ones like, look at this guy. Just. He doesn't even move. He doesn't even try to run away.

[Gia Tolentino]

So after this, Timothy has an extreme reaction, which is to. After resisting Pam's entreaties to give me your phones. He's suddenly like, you know what? Phone's in the bag. Phones in the bag.

[Josh Berryman]

It's a rare thing that we're together like this. So let's make the most of it.

[Walton Goggins]

Let's make this week special.

[Josh Berryman]

Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

Do you think that this is him standing there? Like, is this him standing there and waiting to accept it and fighting it, or is it him running away from the tsunami?

[Amy Lee Wood]

I was. I had that same thought, too. I thought, oh, well, maybe he's accepting his fate, basically. I was like, I can't do anything about it. I'm no longer in control. And a lot of the show in general, is about what you can control and can't control. And depositing your electronics in the bag is the symbolic release of control, because we believe our control is now mediated through our devices and everything. And so, yeah, I kind of felt like he was watching the wave come for him.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. But also trying to delay it because he doesn't even know.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Maybe it could be simultaneous, like, oscillating instant of vibrating back and forth in his Mind. He has the monkey mind of, like, maybe if I pretend go away, it'll go away. And maybe it's just coming for me and there's nothing I can do.

[Gia Tolentino]

And he's dipping into those benzos.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Exactly. He's like, I don't take drugs. By the end now he winds up as like a drug addict. All of a sudden he's like, fiending.

[Gia Tolentino]

I mean, frankly, I would be too if I were him. If I was that man and the FBI was at my office, he better believe I would be taking his anex and hiding my phone. I thought the moment was interesting when Saxon is. You know, the phone moment of putting all the phones in the bag. It comes when someone from the office is calling Saxon. It's leaking, it's about to leak. And he has this one on one father son chat with Saxon.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, that is, like, full of pathos. Because you see how eager this overconfident, blustery son is to just wants his father's. And you. And you kind of get a second of like, maybe you're actually not that good at your job either. You know what I mean? Like, oh, maybe you're a little. Maybe you're slipping at work also, you know?

[Walton Goggins]

I mean, I know I tell you.

[Amy Lee Wood]

This all the time, dad, but I.

[Walton Goggins]

Love working, you know, And I love working with you. I mean, I get to learn so much from you.

[Amy Lee Wood]

I know. I thought that was very revealing, actually, that particular encounter, because, yes, he takes him outside and it's actually meant for self preservation to kind of distract Saxon and not let the cat out of the bag. And he says, okay, instead I'm going to distract him by giving him some validation and some fatherly advice. And I was like, oh, only in this moment where everything, like, this is what it takes for you to say something nice, right?

[Gia Tolentino]

You can tell it had been about 18 months since the last time, right?

[Amy Lee Wood]

Yeah, exactly.

[Gia Tolentino]

What else happens to the family? Lachlan goes for his posture corrective treatment where the perceptive posture man tells him, oh, yeah, you're very defensive and you're protecting with your feminine side, which I adored. And Saxon is trying to tell him that he's gotta get laid.

[Walton Goggins]

Don't you want the big dogs to respect you? What, you wanna be neurotic your whole life and die a fucking virgin?

[Gia Tolentino]

Saxon is, you know, one episode away from sleeping with Chloe, probably. I'm also getting a bit of fear that Saxon is gonna try to make Lachlan have sex with Chloe in some way. Like, he's like, Saxon is quite determined that his younger brother should return from this non emergent. And there's not really. No one else is giving, you know, possibility other than Chloe. I mean, that would be kind of iconic. She's really hot. Piper. Also in this episode, she finally goes to the monastery to set up her meeting. And you know, there was a part of me that was deeply relieved. I was like, girl, you gotta be lining that shit up months in advance. You're gonna travel all the way here as journalists.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Everybody else probably has anxiety about various other things in this episode, but we were both like, is she gonna get this interview?

[Gia Tolentino]

She's gonna set up the interview. She's not gonna get the interview with that.

[Amy Lee Wood]

I'm with the message. Yeah, you gotta book that ahead of time.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Piper is the sort of designated aware one, right. She calls the White Lotus, Malibu Disneyland for rich people. And she has styled herself as like, I'm aware of privilege, I'm aware of existence, I'm aware of all of these things. But then she waltzes into the monastery and she's like, hi, I'm here to get everything I want. You know, and you see her out of the context of her family, that she's still in many ways. And I say this as like an American that did the Peace Corps. Like, who knows from, you know, clueless foreigner walking in and being like, this actually belongs to me and my journey. She's not apart from that.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right. Her self awareness within her family disappears in relation to the rest of the world. Yeah, yeah. And they're like, well, maybe we can accommodate you. Basically, we'll see the guy's a monk.

[Gia Tolentino]

And then they're all going to go party on Gary's boat.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Oh, right. That was a interesting conversation because Victoria is like, well, but are they from a good family?

[Gia Tolentino]

Who did you meet with a boat? Are they decent people?

[Walton Goggins]

Yeah, they own their own yacht.

[Amy Lee Wood]

They're rich.

[Gia Tolentino]

Just because people are rich doesn't mean they're not trashy.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Whatever this external entity is, like, how does it relate to good values, good family? Which really means how does it reflect our family? You know? And that's her immediate response to the whole concept of even. Like basically fraternizing with anybody else in the resort.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Next we have Belinda, a slow burn with pornchine.

[Walton Goggins]

Yeah, I hope you have good dreams of me and I will have good dreams of you.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Is that a time expression? He's revealing his amorous intentions. I know, it is moving forward. And then she also at the dinner spots Gary, Greg goes over to the table and says, don't I know you?

[Gia Tolentino]

Do you think that he recognized her.

[Amy Lee Wood]

When she's walking up to the table? He definitely recognizes her, but not before.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Because you see it on his face. They. It kind of lingers on him.

[Gia Tolentino]

And then once she says Tanya's name.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Then he realized he's, like, squirming in his chair.

[Gia Tolentino]

But I have a question for you about Belinda. She's there for three months. I'm like, are you just gonna be experiencing this spa for three months?

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right. That's true. That's a long apprenticeship. That's quite a internal training program that the White Lotus management has set up that you can just go to another installation at the hotel for three months.

[Gia Tolentino]

Treatments from hot guys for three months. And then we've got our three gossiping girlies. We've got Jacqueline, Laurie, and Kate. Episode one ends with two of them making fun of Laurie, gossiping about her behind her back. Episode two ends with two of them talking about Jacqueline. And then this one, it's Kate's turn in the ringer.

[Amy Lee Wood]

We see the completion of the cycle of the gossip geometry.

[Gia Tolentino]

This was the part of the episode where I was like, I was cringing to the deepest core of my cells.

[Amy Lee Wood]

I know. This is, like, the moment I dread.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. I mean, we can show our cards here. I mean, I would truly not like to be on vacation with someone I considered a close friend that reveals that they voted for Trump. That would, frankly, stress me the fuck out.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Yeah, it would be a little.

[Gia Tolentino]

That would really stress me. And you see exactly what the other two friends, and they're like, I can't wait for her to go to bed so we can talk about this for three hours.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Yeah. Also the way that conversation unfolds where Jacqueline starts actually by making this interesting observation, Right. Where they're talking about kind of religion as a salve. And then she says, I don't know. Christianity, basically, the monotheistic religions are man fights the battle for good and evil.

[Josh Berryman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

Because like Christianity and most religions, they're made for men. Right. The father sacrifices the son, the son's a man, dies on the cross. The heroes are all men, and the women just cry on the side.

[Amy Lee Wood]

I was like, oh, this is going to be an interesting exploration of some spiritual notion. They're in this Buddhist country. I thought, that's where it's going. And then me, too. And then Kate says, I'm a woman.

[Gia Tolentino]

What's wrong with that?

[Amy Lee Wood]

I'm a woman, and I love church. And then, like, huh, interesting.

[Gia Tolentino]

They're all really good families, you know, like this recurring as, like.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Yes, right. She says that, too.

[Josh Berryman]

I don't know.

[Gia Tolentino]

If I was just around a bunch of Texans who voted for Trump, I guess I'd just feel a little alienated.

[Josh Berryman]

They're nice people, really good families.

[Gia Tolentino]

And what people in the south mean when they say that is like, they're rich and they keep their shit under wraps. Like, they're rich and they successfully repress any outer sign of disorder. That's literally all people.

[Amy Lee Wood]

That's what the other.

[Gia Tolentino]

There's something interesting about. While I don't doubt that Jacqueline and Laurie, you know, or whatever, variously sincere, progressive, liberal, however they consider themselves. But it is something that I feel quite aware of in my everyday life, where there are plenty of people in my orbit who think of liberal or progressive politics mostly as kind of a consumer identity, who were really offended by Trump, mostly as an aesthetic signal about. Like. Like, this is just embarrassing. Like, there's a way in which Kate, having voted for Trump, is on an equal plane in terms of moral and aesthetic importance as kind of not having a really good doctor for your Botox. Right. Like, they have the. They are appalled, as if they are talking about a serious political topic. But there's a way in which it's sort of like, ooh, you've made a lifestyle choice. You made an aesthetic choice.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Interesting. Obviously, the aesthetics of politics are persuasive and powerful. I actually was kind of ruminating on whether there was an intention to sort of state how politics itself has now become a belief system, since it's become itself. So overpowering. Right. And, you know, because you're in the setting where they're on this. There's spiritual seeking, they're in this kind of place where you have your serenity as a wellness goal. And explicitly, there's all this Buddhist statuary around everything, and people are talking about their values, Right. They're talking all the time like they have good values, whatever. And now it's like politics has become its own religion, basically. Right.

[Josh Berryman]

I'm an independent.

[Gia Tolentino]

An independent.

[Walton Goggins]

Since when?

[Gia Tolentino]

You didn't vote for Trump, though, did you?

[Amy Lee Wood]

I took it almost like it's like she's an apostate, like a heretic. Right, right. Like, it's actually superseding whatever spiritualism is going on in this, like, in the retreat, and it comes into the conversation through religion, right? And then, like, they could argue about religion probably all dinner, and that's fine. But the minute she says Trump, it's like, oh, no, you're a heretic.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right. And there was that part in the first episode where Laurie's, like, looking at you guys. It's like looking at a mirror. And there's something interesting about what this crew will not do, which is like, probably they are all living extremely similar lives with extremely similar consumer choices, you know, et cetera, but the exact same life. If the person voted for Trump, that life will then be viewed as sort of, like, immoral and false, you know, like, these lifestyle choices will be viewed as, like, selfish.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right. It changes the coloring.

[Gia Tolentino]

But yet, I'm sure those women are making quite similar choices about their children, their children's schooling, how much they fly on planes, whatever. You know, their degree of civic engagement. Like, it's. And that, you know, I don't know. I doubt a lot of that will reach the surface, but I was like, ooh, I can feel it. Ooh, I can feel it.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right, right. It would make the others basically question all of her motivations on making the same choices that they made.

[Gia Tolentino]

That they exactly make. Yeah. So the themes really come out. The themes being the snake in the Garden of Paradise or whatever. With Chelsea and Rick, they wind up in this snake show.

[Amy Lee Wood]

The snake show.

[Gia Tolentino]

But the snake show is also prompted by another meditation session.

[Walton Goggins]

And my father, he was a good man. He was a decent man, but I never got to know him, you know, because he was murdered, and I can't get my life back.

[Amy Lee Wood]

He shows up as the most mysterious character in some way because there's some deep, dark past, and then his being revealed most easily. Everybody's masks are gonna come down. Right. As we think about the symbolic aspect of the performative mask in the actual dinner performance. And his mask is. We're getting it pretty quick.

[Gia Tolentino]

His mask is the thing that it's masking. Like, he's giving broken man, and he is. You know what I mean?

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right. Yeah, exactly.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's the only one that's sullen on the bo. And as such, he's the only one telling the truth about existence.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right? That's right. That's right. He's the truth teller.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's the truth teller. So he gets too high, or so he says. They're at the snake show, and he lets a bunch of snakes loose.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Well, before that, they kind of go through the little snake pavilion before they get to the show, and you see him kind of communing with the snakes and having this deep connection.

[Walton Goggins]

It's fucked up. They're stuck inside these cages.

[Josh Berryman]

Yeah. Where should they be, Rick? Out in the fields with the farmers. They're Venomous snakes.

[Walton Goggins]

I still got a right to live free.

[Amy Lee Wood]

He is stoned, but there's something else going on where he's having some kind of emotional attachment. And then when they get into the snake show, he has a freak out. He kind of turns and observes that there are other people just, like, watching this gleefully with popcorn. And I can't tell. What do you make of his motivation? What he says is, I just didn't want to see them be in pain, you know, like, it's unfair to the snakes. And so. And I was like, well, if that's really the case, then that's like, quite a noble motive.

[Gia Tolentino]

I think He. Well, I didn't read it as a noble motive, but I do think, you know, he was. It seems the episode is trying to make it really clear. He was in his therapy session saying that he has been caged in by circumstance, more or less, and he feels misunderstood and he probably feels misperceived. And so he.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Oh, he's acting out.

[Walton Goggins]

Yeah.

[Amy Lee Wood]

He can't free himself. So it's like, I may as well free these snakes. They're in cages kind of.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, right. Like, he's clearly sick of everyone else's sort of. He seems like someone that wearies immediately of any stab at propriety. And he's just. He would prefer the truth of snakebites and chaos.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right. So then later, Chelsea says, so you released a bunch of venomous snakes earlier today. What do you think that's about? She's basically posing the kind of like, therapy question to him, like, why did you do this?

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Amy Lee Wood]

And then what he says is, I.

[Walton Goggins]

Felt bad for him.

[Josh Berryman]

Snakes are evil. Read the Bible.

[Walton Goggins]

Well, even evil things shouldn't be treated like shit. It's only gonna make them more evil.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Which I thought also, that was like a very heavily freighted line that that is gonna mean something in relation to his whole storyline with the murder and his father and wherever he's going with his pal Frank that he calls, by the way, he's like his old buddy Frank. If you've got an old buddy Frank in Bangkok who you need to help take care of some things, then what is your background like? It is making me wonder what kind of weird shit has he been into?

[Gia Tolentino]

And unfortunately, my personal identification of the Chelsea ended in their final scene where she's like, I will follow you into the.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Oh, yeah, and the next life.

[Gia Tolentino]

And the next.

[Amy Lee Wood]

I was like, that's not good.

[Gia Tolentino]

You will never catch me saying that to a man.

[Amy Lee Wood]

But it is in keeping with the nature of the show exploring Buddhism and the reincarnation.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, there's something really sweet earlier in the episode. She's like, you know, like, I'm your soulmate. Like, I am your soulmate. And I really believe it from her. Like, she sees a hole in him that can be filled by her.

[Amy Lee Wood]

She's sort of meant to be the healer of him. Right. He believes he cannot be healed. She believes that she can basically heal anybody. And then she shakes off this deadly, lethal snakebite instantaneously. You know, is she the antidote, right, to the venom, whatever venom is coursing through him. I mean, this is the centerpiece of this episode in some way, right. Is the snakes being unleashed.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right. With the snakes in this episode, with the preponderance of snakes that is sort of amassing in this season, we had the choker. Now we have the, you know, the pile of cobras that Rick unlocks out of their. Out of their home. The Garden of Eden biblical stuff is getting more over. The first episode, you had Saxon pick up a fruit, and Pam, Australian that is also deadly, says, this fruit can kill you.

[Josh Berryman]

That is the fruit of the mighty pong pong tree. And the seeds of the fruit are toxic.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Yeah. Could it kill you?

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, it could actually. Very poisonous. We have everyone in paradise. And then there's the snake figure. There's the presence of entropy and sin and, like, the freedom to unleash the way that it figures into the biblical story. It's like the presence of him causes Eve to eat the apple and causes just the entire world to turn off of its axis from there.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right. Well, Mike grew up religious. His father was a minister. He has all this biblical knowledge in the back of his mind. And this is something we learned in the Look Back podcast, so you can listen to more about Mike's biblical and religious background in that show. But also there is maybe just the idea of, like, there is the pent up chaos in the cage. And to some degree, the show itself is always about, like, what happens if you open the cage. Right. And what happens if the snakes come out and their fangs are bared? What is the energy that is unleashed? This would be like if there was like the Werner Herzog commentary. Like, it is the chaos of the jungle and all of life's agonies are slithering through the grass. Like, that's, I think, what the energy of the snakes represents.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, there's something interesting too, as a fellow person that grew up, you know, like, heavy within evangelical Christian indoctrination, where in the myth of the Garden of Eden. The snake tells Eve to eat from the fruit of the tree of Knowledge, and it's knowledge of the world that destroys paradise, right? And you know, there are, like very clear echoes here about. Timothy would prefer oblivion. Like, the knowledge is poisonous to him. There's a way in which plenty of people here are trying to enter the zone of the lotus eaters and to lose the knowledge of the world and to exist in that as its own sort of constructed paradise. But, you know, the knowledge, right?

[Amy Lee Wood]

The knowledge is the agony, right? That is. It's like you can't put the apple back on the tree. And it's what causes monkey mind. It is what keeps you up at night. And you have to take lorazepam. It's what makes you question your choices in the past. And which way did you wind up relative to your high school girlfriends? And I hadn't thought of it, but the lotus eaters, they are eating their magic lotus petals or flowers or whatever. That's like numbing them to the world. And they don't have to worry about the knowledge of what is going on out there.

[Gia Tolentino]

And now we're so excited to talk to Walton Goggins, also known as Rick.

[Walton Goggins]

Hey, y'all. Welcome to the Walton Goggins White Lotus Experience.

[Gia Tolentino]

Thank you so much for having us on your show.

[Walton Goggins]

Yes, absolutely.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Walton Goggins]

So I want to ask you. No, go ahead.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay. So we are loving your arc and I wanted to ask you. Episode one, you seem like. Rick seems like one of the most closed off characters on the boat. Coming in, chip on the shoulder, you know, chain smoking, opening the beer angrily, extremely antisocial behavior. But it's revealed like you're. You are actually coming to Thailand in this profoundly vulnerable place, more so than almost anyone else in the cast. And can you talk about that?

[Walton Goggins]

You know what. Can I say this? You know, right out of the gate? I've been around a long time. I've done a lot of comedies over the course of my career. I've done a lot of dramas over the course of my career. What was the hardest part about this experience for me early on was being. Excuse my language, you know, but the fucking downer in the room, you know, I've been. My process is no different. It's evolved. I find more pleasure in the experience of telling stories. But showing up to work every day with 18 people and a green room that's full of chairs of 18 people that are in a much different place emotionally that I am at the beginning of the story was very difficult. You know, I can be the one cracking jokes. I can be the one having a good time. More often than not, my chair is separate. I sit on my own. I do my own thing. I have played countless figures that move through the world as an island, you know, but this one was particularly hard because usually that's just with like, two or three people, and this was with 18 people that, you know, have, you know, comedic chops and drama chops. But I just couldn't. I couldn't be around them. They. They didn't understand why I was there. This guy is isolated. He has moved through his life isolated. And. And that wasn't any fun, you know, to. To. To. To separate yourself from a group in that way, that was really, really challenging and I guess to speak to what you said. Yeah. Rick is a. A person who has been running from his past for a very long time, who exists in the spaces in between, you know, in society, on the fringes of society. And he is angry and he is bitter about the hand that was dealt him by life. He's incapable of taking any responsibility for himself. And over the course of this experience, coming into it, where everyone else's motivations are revealed right out of the gate, you know, pretty much, and with such elegance and such precision, these actors kind of interpreted it from Jason Isaacs getting that information, and Patrick and, you know, where he's coming from, the relationship with his dad and this funny, kind of very narrow view of the world and privileged view of the world and all three of the ladies, and. And here I come in, you know, with Chelsea, played by Amy Lee Wood, and she doesn't even know. So it was more isolating than I anticipated. And it reverberated throughout the whole experience. For me.

[Amy Lee Wood]

It's interesting that your character comes in and it's like, as you say, sort of like the Debbie Downer, but also immediately very open and vulnerable. Like, at first, in the first episode, you're like, why are these two together? I don't get it. But by the time of the therapy sessions, where you see there's something like, right beneath the surface that's available and vulnerable, I was just sort of like, really struck by that.

[Walton Goggins]

Amy and I talked ad nauseam about the beginning of each day is kind of the worst part for them. Right? But by the end of it, you know, they. They come together and they see each other regardless of the. The difference between their ages, that's irrelevant. It means nothing. When you. When you have a soulmate that sees you and your potential, you know, in a way, that you can't see it for yourself. Unfortunately, in this case, it's really one sided, you know, and his grief descends into a level of narcissism, really, because he's occupied with it and, and can't kind of see past it. And, and there was one day that we were working and I, I just don't know how to not be. Stay in it. You know, it's, it's not fun. It's not fun for my wife, it's not fun for me. But we were all on this boat and I just had such anxiety about getting on this boat because there's nowhere for me to hide. I'm a claustrophobic person by nature and Rick is a claustrophobic person. And, and I knew there was no place for me to be alone, right on this boat before I could take my chair and go out into the little jungle if I wanted to, you know, but, but on this particular day it was really tough. And so I just camped out on the front of this boat. The view was incredible and I just filled it full of negative energy so that no one wanted to be around me, right? And there was a moment, like, for real, it's like just like buckets of fucking negativity. Here you go. Like no one will come up here. One person did. John Grice is a buddy of mine and, and so we were able to talk, but at one point, Amy, not being mean or anything, she said, you know, leaned over and, and just said, you know, you're no fun. I want to be with them, you know, meaning the, you know, Patrick and the other characters, you know, and, and I, I was like, thank you, God. Thank you for saying that, you know, because that's exactly how I want you to feel.

[Amy Lee Wood]

You know, in episode three, the snakes, you decide that the evil things need to be free and release the snakes. What do you think was going through Rick's head to release the snakes? I have a thought, but I'm curious.

[Walton Goggins]

Well, you know, I felt that really early on. The first time I read it, I understood it. It was crystal clear for me. And I felt that in that moment, what he saw were these animals that were vilified by myths, by experiences. They were misunderstood, they were marginalized as being the worst among us, you know, and he saw the way that the gross homogenized culture wasn't seeing these animals for their true beauty. They couldn't see them for what they have to offer. And they are so unbelievably disrespectful. Drinking their drinks and eating their chips and manhandling them in a way as if they don't have a soul. And I think he sees himself in them, you know, and I think he sees them as his spirit animal and he sees that the way that he's been treated, whether it's self inflicted or not, he sees himself in these animals and he just can't take it anymore. And so he goes out and releases all of these snakes in these cages because he himself wants to be released. And it's like, if I can help them, maybe somebody can help me. It's metaphorical, but it's deep. You know, it wasn't without intention.

[Gia Tolentino]

It wasn't just the weed.

[Walton Goggins]

Yeah, it wasn't just the weed, but, but, you know, a gateway drug to transcendent thinking.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yes.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Do you think there was a little death wish subconscious in there under. It was also like, oh, I can't live this way anymore.

[Walton Goggins]

I, I, I, you know, I. Look, I think this person's, you know, floated on the edge of, you know, questioning how long he has on this planet for years. But, but Rick, yeah, he's a, he's a dark dude. But you know what? I, I, I, hopefully, you know, if I did my job and the way Mike architected it, hopefully you, you will, your empathy will continue. And you're, and, and you, you will fall in love with him and Chelsea. I certainly did.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, yeah. There are favorites. There are favorites. Can I ask you a burning question that Josh and I have had? Where in your mind did Rick and Chelsea meet?

[Walton Goggins]

I've been, I've been to a lot of countries in my life. Me personally, I've traveled a lot of different places, and I think that they met in a bar because she's a free spirit. I don't want to speak for Amy, but she was running from her own things, you know, whether she was traveling alone or whether she was with a group of people. I think she came up to the bar to order a drink and Rick was sitting there alone. I think that she struck up a conversation because Rick just wouldn't. And five minutes into it, there was a soul connection. You know, she knew, she knew. And, and we'll see whether or not Rick comes to the same conclusion.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, we're rooting for Rick and Chelsea quite hard.

[Walton Goggins]

Thank you so much. I can't wait for you to see where it goes.

[Gia Tolentino]

Goggins was locked in. Yeah.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Wow. I'm still feeling it.

[Gia Tolentino]

I know we're flushed. We have to kind of paint a picture for the listener about just simply how much Gold jewelry he was wearing and how.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Oh, my God, his drip was incredible.

[Gia Tolentino]

Jack, to the man, is.

[Amy Lee Wood]

And he's wearing these beautiful, oversized, like, wide, pleated pants. Pleated pants.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. He looked great.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Yeah. Some little chest exposed.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, he looked really good. We could talk about this for 10 minutes, but now we. Now we're going to talk to Amy Lou Scorpio.

[Josh Berryman]

So secretive. It's not easy for me, Rick. I'm an Aries. I need everything out in the open.

[Walton Goggins]

Oh, my God. I need weed.

[Josh Berryman]

Just tell me what's going on.

[Walton Goggins]

It doesn't concern you. Okay.

[Josh Berryman]

Of course it concerns me. Everything you do concerns me. I'm your life partner. Rick.

[Gia Tolentino]

Amy Liu, thank you for coming on the HBO Companion podcast. Josh and I are big. Chelsea and Rick Stans.

[Josh Berryman]

I'm so glad.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay, so first of all, I wanted to ask you. We heard that you yourself are quite into astrology, and I wanted to ask, you know, how much of Chelsea is in you. How much of you is in Chelsea?

[Josh Berryman]

I, you know, I was a huge fan of the show, and I watched the first two seasons being like, I want to be in this, but where do I fit? How would I be in the White Lotus? I don't see it. I don't get it. But I just know I want to work with Mike. And then it did feel a bit like when I saw those audition sides and Chelsea was talking about astrology and Rick being such a Scorpio, and I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. This could be it. This could actually be it. Because there was just instant resonance, you know, and she is, I think, astrologically, you know, she's an Aries and I'm an Aquarius. So I'm a lot more kind of thought led. I can be quite cerebral because I'm air Chelsea's fire. So she's way more about feeling and passion and impulse and experience. And she doesn't really use her brain that much. She uses her heart way more than her brain. So we're very different in, like, that way. But then I do think that she does have a Scorpio moon like me. So my most private self is actually intensely emotional, very romantic, and very loyal. And it's that deep kind of dark shadow side the stuff with the Scorpio, which is, I think, why Rick Scorpio's son is so. Actually, as much as she kind of berates him for it, there's something tying them together, which might be the sun moon thing. And I think that, you know, he's. She says all the time. You're so secretive, Rick. But she's actually. We learn more about his life than hers. So she's really good at one finger pointing, three pointing bat. Like she's always like, you're mysterious, I don't know anything about you. But actually she does have so much mystery to her. But her kind of fiery openness in that Aries kind of distracts people from the fact that she's actually deeply, deeply mysterious and doesn't reveal much about her past or where she's from at all. You know, she's all about, be in the present, be in the present. Let's not even go there. All she says is, bad things have happened to me. So yeah, there's a lot of us that's similar. And there's bits of her that I also aspire to be. I really love her assertiveness. She's actually very assertive. Like with Saxon. She just tells it how it is. It's just. And she does in everything. But she just loves Rick so much and it's driving her crazy.

[Gia Tolentino]

How do you know she's a Scorpio moon? Was that written in?

[Josh Berryman]

No, I've just decided that.

[Gia Tolentino]

You just knew? Yeah. Yeah. You triangulated the birth time?

[Josh Berryman]

Yeah.

[Amy Lee Wood]

I like this. A technical answer. We need to have a separate episode where you do charts for all the characters and work out all the relationships that way. We have been having a debate over here about how we think Chelsea and Rick actually met. Do you have a sense of where they met? We asked Goggins as well.

[Josh Berryman]

Okay. There was more in the script originally about Rick and Chelsea, how they met. And it was very much like a drug fueled night while they were traveling. But I think that. Why? What did he say?

[Amy Lee Wood]

He said he had a whole scenario in his head. They're in a bar somewhere, kind of like traveling, and then Chelsea comes up and sees like, aha, here's something that I can apply my open heart to. And he's resistant. And then she's persistent.

[Josh Berryman]

That is definitely what happened. I mean, it was definitely like there's def. And then I think it probably turned into that drug fueled night that Mike wrote about. But I think, you know, I think she just. I think she. Yeah, she will have seen him and thought, bingo, here is a place that I can pour the entirety of myself into. And he's kind of like, I don't want that. But also maybe I do. Question mark.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right. That sounds like a lot of work. Yeah, but. Okay, I'm relenting.

[Josh Berryman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Well, it is Something we've been talking also as we're watching the episodes at the beginning, you're sort of like, why are these two together? What's their deal? He's such a sourpuss and she's like a ray of sunshine. But it quickly materializes into this very genuine, tender, heartfelt relationship.

[Josh Berryman]

Yeah, but I keep saying this about Mike. I think people would assume that he's quite cynical, maybe because the show, what we love about it is that it really does razor sharp, acerbic, like, nails all the worst parts of people and greed and ego and all of that. But he's actually a massive optimist and, like, has loads of hope and loads of enthusiasm. And I loved that. This. It's like people are gonna think. People are gonna think, like, she's using him, or, you know what? There's something going on. And I just love the way he's like, no, the surprise is like. It's like a total double bluff. It's like, oh, no, she does just actually bloody love him.

[Gia Tolentino]

She profoundly thinks they are soulmates and is bringing all of that.

[Amy Lee Wood]

That's her duty, her destiny.

[Josh Berryman]

Yeah, it's her mission. It's her mission. And it's great to have a mission like, you know, and she's just gonna stick to it. And it makes her quite fearless because as long as she has that tunnel vision, she can deal with anything because that is her. She's got her life's purpose. And it's him. And he's like, oh, my God, why does it have to be me? But also, wow. Wow. And he's got so much tenderness for her, really. He just can't express it.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right. I mean, it's really beautiful. But I, you know, was wondering about your experience. You know, you are the repository for that optimism in this show in many ways. Right. Like you, Chelsea is the character that is carrying this sincerity and optimism that's such a necessary sort of tonal counterpart to the value systems and things that other characters are bringing. And I. Yeah, I mean, was that. Was that fun to just get to be this, the ray of sunshine?

[Josh Berryman]

It was so fun. And it felt like a real privilege because I feel like I'm expressing that part of Mike like, that it felt really intimate because, yeah, it felt like he was expressing that through Chelsea. And so it just felt like a lovely bond and also gave me that energy because he's got boundless energy. And I was just kind of mirroring that. But also, sometimes when it was the end of a filming day, I was like, I just need to be sad and shy. I need to be sad and shy because she's really, you know, she's so fizzy. And Rick needs to step up and let her have some of the pain and let him have some of the hope. And they need to kind of meet each other in the middle. They can't do that. Right now, he's taking up all the quota for sadness and pain, so she's taking up all the quota for the hope and the. And the joy, and that is a lot. And Walton's. So carpe diem. His tempo is so different to Rick's. Like, Walton's. Like, yeah, man. Hey, man, let's get, like, cocktails, and let's dance. So it would sometimes be, like, a switch of energies. It would be like, that's a wrap. And then I would go into, like, the moon energy, and he'd be the son of. So it was quite nice to swap around in real life.

[Gia Tolentino]

That's beautiful. Yeah.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Well, the other thing that happens in the episode is the snakes.

[Gia Tolentino]

How do you think Chelsea understood what Rick did?

[Josh Berryman]

I think that she. I just keep going back to that song, the Snake by Al Wilson. You know that song? And it's about a woman who finds a snake that's dying on the side of the road, and she takes him in, and she's like, you're so cute, and I'm gonna make you better. And then she does. And when she does make him better, he bites her, and she's so shocked, and he's like, you knew I was a snake before you brought me in. Like, you know, And I think that the snake motif for Chelsea is really about that. It's about the fact that she can't see that maybe she could be in danger. She doesn't really see it. And so I think that she is probably quite in denial and confused about why he would release those snakes, but there's something in her tummy and her gut that understands it. And she says to him, if you're trying to kill me, you're not going to get rid of me that easy. I'm just going to keep following you. So there is obviously a part of her that is flirting with the idea that he might be a snake and that he might be dangerous, and maybe she gets some thrill out of that.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Right. She has her own caged cobra in Rick.

[Josh Berryman]

Yes.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Like, that's what she has done.

[Josh Berryman]

Exactly. She's literally got a snake and gone mine. And she's hugging it and being like, you're so cute. Mwah, mwah. Mwah. And everyone else is like, no, he's not. He's not.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Yeah, watch out.

[Josh Berryman]

And she's like, no, he is. He's like, my child.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's my baby.

[Amy Lee Wood]

I'm like, no, his hood is up.

[Josh Berryman]

Exactly.

[Gia Tolentino]

Thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you so much for talking to us. It's been lovely.

[Josh Berryman]

Bye.

[Gia Tolentino]

Bye.

[Amy Lee Wood]

Well, that was delightful.

[Gia Tolentino]

I think we do have to get a spin off podcast where she reads everyone's charts. Everyone's charts in the cast.

[Amy Lee Wood]

I like how she went deep with this technical astrological read. And then you said, well, where did that come from? She said, well, I supplied that information so I could get an accurate read.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.

[Amy Lee Wood]

All right, well, thanks for listening and we will see you next time.

[Gia Tolentino]

The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman. Natalia William Winkelman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Pacillo and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewin Lai Trimuin. At Campside Media are executive producers Josh Dean. For the HBO podcast team are executive producers Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen Sorokac, and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time. The official White Lotus Podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch. Every five star getaway needs a five star wardrobe, preferably without the drama. Abercrombie and Fitch's long weekend collection has you covered. Discover versatile Miele dresses, classic skirts and the refined A and F Collins suit. Easily styled for dressier laid back looks. Perfect for any moment on your itinerary. Your vacation starts now. Use Lotus 15 to get an extra 15% off almost everything at checkout code valid in the US and Canada through April 13th. Exclusions apply. See site for details. Pack wisely with Abercrombie and Fitch.