Ep. 5 “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey

Summary

The White Lotus Official Podcast - Season 3, Episode 5: "Full Moon Party"

Hosts: Jia Tolentino and Josh Bearman
Guests: Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Release Date: March 17, 2025
Production: Campside Media with HBO

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Introduction

In the fifth episode of The White Lotus Official Podcast, hosts Jia Tolentino and Josh Bearman delve deep into the intricacies of the "Full Moon Party" episode from Season 3. This episode serves as a pivotal midpoint in the season, unraveling complex character dynamics and escalating tensions both at the hotel and during the hedonistic Full Moon Party. Featuring insightful conversations with guest stars Carrie Coon and Parker Posey, the hosts break down key moments, thematic elements, and character developments that propel the narrative forward.

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Episode Overview

"Full Moon Party," written and directed by Mike White, juxtaposes the serene, methodical happenings at the hotel with the unrestrained revelry of the guests at the Full Moon Party. Jia and Josh explore how this duality serves to highlight the characters' internal struggles and the overarching themes of identity, desire, and existential crisis.

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Character Dynamics and Development

Saxon and Lachlan's Conflict

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Saxon and Lachlan's evolving relationship. Saxon's initial resistance to indulging in the party's excesses and his statement, "I don't do drugs. I am the drug," reflects his struggle with control and vulnerability ([04:00]). Josh points out how Saxon's façade begins to crumble under peer pressure, leading to moments of profound self-realization:

Josh Bearman ([04:18]): "Saxon doesn't do drugs. So it's like a classic third person. But Lachlan does. He goes right for it... Saxon is finding that he, he's kind of in awe, like he actually is left with kind of a gentle and profoundly vulnerable."

Chelsea and Chloe's Friendship

The hosts also examine the dynamics between Chelsea and Chloe, highlighting themes of jealousy and the pursuit of approval. Their conversations on the yacht reveal underlying tensions and personal insecurities that add depth to their characters.

Josh Bearman ([07:06]): "She says, you can't spend your life trying to rescue people. But that is exactly what she's gonna do."

Laurie and Valentin's Interaction

Laurie's storyline, coupled with her interactions with Valentin, showcases her internal conflict between maintaining her composure and succumbing to desire. The hosts express their emotional investment in Laurie's journey, emphasizing moments where Laurie grapples with her sense of self-worth and the facade she upholds.

Gia Tolentino ([11:12]): "I shed a tear in the party scene watching those girls dance. So Belinda has her lovely romantic moment. I really felt so happy for her."

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Themes and Insights

Identity and Self-Realization

The episode delves into the concept of identity as a prison and the characters' attempts to break free from societal expectations. Sam Rockwell's monologue as Frank introduces a metaphorical exploration of identity, questioning whether one's essence is tied to their form or if it transcends physical existence.

Sam Rockwell ([20:22]): "Sex is a poetic act. It's a metaphor. Metaphor for what? Are we our forms? Am I a middle-aged white guy on the inside, too? Or inside, could I be an Asian girl?"

This profound dialogue sparks a debate between the hosts about the nature of self and the lengths one might go to understand or reinvent themselves.

The Dichotomy of Control and Letting Go

Josh likens the Full Moon Party to a metaphorical "skinny dipping on ecstasy," where characters shed inhibitions and confront their true selves. This contrast between the hotel's quiet tension and the party's chaos underscores the characters' journeys toward self-discovery or further entanglement in their facades.

Gia Tolentino ([05:57]): "Like Lachlan is actually like his inner self is much more in command when stripped away than Saxon's is."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Gia Tolentino ([04:52]): "Little secret, they just want to be used."
• Josh Bearman ([06:15]): "Chelsea's commitment to love and connection is tested."
• Parker Posey ([12:33]): "It's bad form to talk about the guest in this way."
• Carrie Coon ([15:11]): "What if this life is just a test to see if we can become better people?"
• Carrie Coon ([22:46]): "It's embedded in a context that requires some external factors."

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Guest Insights: Carrie Coon and Parker Posey

Carrie Coon on Laurie’s Character

Carrie Coon provides an in-depth analysis of Laurie Ratliff, portraying her as a woman grappling with imposter syndrome and the pressures of maintaining her family's facade. Coon discusses Laurie's vulnerability and her struggle to reconcile her public persona with her private insecurities.

Carrie Coon ([36:34]): "She feels like the odd man out. She feels like something's not quite right."

Parker Posey on Female Friendships and Dynamics

Parker Posey delves into the complexities of female friendships depicted in the episode, drawing parallels to her own experiences. She highlights the inherent tensions and judgments that surfaces, even in long-standing relationships.

Parker Posey ([34:25]): "You can go to Thailand, but all your stuff is there with you and you're carrying it and unpacking it."

Posey also touches upon the show's portrayal of Southern womanhood and the performative aspects of her character, Victoria Ratliff.

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Production and Performance Highlights

Josh and Jia commend the improvisational elements introduced by Mike White, noting how the flexibility on set allows actors like Carrie Coon and Parker Posey to infuse authenticity into their performances. The hosts appreciate the blend of scripted and spontaneous moments that elevate the episode's narrative.

Parker Posey ([43:15]): "Mike White is like a playwright... He gets a lot of material, and then in the editing, it becomes the White Lotus thing that it's supposed to be."

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Conclusion and Forward Look

"Full Moon Party" serves as a critical juncture in The White Lotus Season 3, setting the stage for future conflicts and character transformations. The podcast hosts effectively unpack the episode's layered storytelling, emphasizing the show's exploration of identity, desire, and the masks individuals wear. As the characters make consequential choices and face the repercussions of their actions, listeners are left anticipating the unfolding drama in the remaining episodes.

Gia Tolentino ([28:14]): "Which characters will end the season with this thing that has been exposed, just instantly recovered with the exact same facade that was there before and which are gonna stay cracked open, will be transformed, basically."

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Closing Remarks

Jia Tolentino and Josh Bearman wrap up the episode by expressing their admiration for the guest performances and the depth of the narrative. They tease future discussions and invite listeners to continue engaging with the unfolding saga of The White Lotus.

Credits:

• Hosts: Jia Tolentino and Josh Bearman
• Guests: Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
• Managing Producer: Natalia Winkelman
• Associate Producers: Allison Haney, Anthony Pacillo, and Aaliyah Papes
• Sound Design and Mix: Ewin Lai Trimuin at Campside Media
• Executive Producers: Josh Dean (HBO podcast team), Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen Soroka, and Kenya Reyes

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Thank you for listening to The White Lotus Official Podcast. Stay tuned for our next episode as we continue to explore the depths of Season 3.

Transcript

[Gia Tolentino]

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[Sam Rockwell]

I started wondering, where am I going with this? Why do I feel this need to fuck all these women? What is desire the form of this cute Asian girl? Why does it have such a grip on me? Because she's the opposite of me? Is she gonna complete me in some way? I realized, like a million women, I'd still never be satisfied. Maybe. Maybe what I really want is to be one of these Asian girls.

[Gia Tolentino]

Hello and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.

[Josh Bearman]

And I'm Josh Bearman.

[Gia Tolentino]

And I'm. And wow, what an episode. We knew that stuff was going to happen in the Full Moon Party. But before we start talking about the episode, I have a question for you. I feel like this is a valuable opportunity for us. I'm an Asian woman in front of a white man. This is. I want to give you a safe space to say, like, if you have always. If you believe that on the inside, you too are an Asian woman. You could say it now, right?

[Josh Bearman]

Everybody's. There's a new permission structure.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just wanted to make sure we had that in this room.

[Josh Bearman]

Okay.

[Gia Tolentino]

My real question for you was, are you sad that you didn't show up in the Full Moon party?

[Josh Bearman]

Oh, yeah, I was.

[Gia Tolentino]

For people that maybe missed earlier episodes, Josh was on set bragging, bragging, having been on set for the full moon party in dinner.

[Josh Bearman]

And I was an extra, was dancing around, but I did not get a glimpse of myself.

[Gia Tolentino]

So I was very disappointed. Yeah, I didn't see you either.

[Josh Bearman]

I was gripping the table. But no, we'll have to watch it again.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, we'll watch it again just for you.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, just to see.

[Gia Tolentino]

All right, so this episode is called Full Moon Party. It is written and directed by Mike White. There is sort of two tracks happening on it. There is quieter stuff happening at the hotel with three of the Ratliffs, Belinda Mook and Guy Talk, Et Cetera. And then everyone else is letting loose. And later in this episode, we get to talk to two queens, Carrie Coon and Parker Posey.

[Josh Bearman]

A big part of this episode is our three gals and Chloe, Chelsea, Lachlan and Saxon on the party boat. I mean, we're at episode five. It's kind of like the midpoint of the story. And it's also that part, like, if you're at camp or you're on vacation, there's the moment when you're skinny dipping in the pool on ecstasy, right? This is what is happening in this episode. Everybody has just like, the inhibitions have been shed. They've surveyed the social landscape, felt present, and now they're ready. They're going for it. I mean, it's montaged together, right? You're seeing kind of these dual images of both parties, right? And so there's sort of on the boat, it's in stages. They're like, there's the approach to the party. It's almost kind of like mythical passage making, right? They're crossing the water, they're talking about what to expect, and then they get to the party, right?

[Gia Tolentino]

You know what I was saying last time, that Saxon needs to confront the unassimilatable other or whatever. And it's like he goes in the zone at the end of the party, right? I was waiting for something like this moment for Saxon when he can't. He says, he's like, I don't do drugs. I am the drug. Because he can't handle drugs.

[Josh Bearman]

I know. He says, Saxon doesn't do drugs. So it's like a classic third person. But Lachlan does. He goes right for it. Immediately, Saxon is shocked. And then I guess Saxon does do drugs because he felt the peer pressure and he does it. And I like how he almost immediately seems like on the verge of epiphany when they get to the Full Moon party, since he's never not in control, right. Of his own self confidence. Lock.

[Gia Tolentino]

That's how you get people to do what you want. Because most people don't know what they want. And a lot of them, here's a.

[Josh Bearman]

Little secret, they just want to be used. He's always like at the gym, getting his pump, drinking his protein powder. And so to be kind of like intoxicated in a real way is something new to him, right?

[Gia Tolentino]

And he's also constantly articulating, more than anyone, his of how the world is and how the world works. And it seems like Lachlan was like, you know what? Don't talk about it, just be about it. It's like Saxon is. It's as if he's living within this sort of fortress of mantras about strength and domination. But he is constantly constructing this by advising other people about how he knows everything. And then the drug renders him non verbal and the drug does what these drugs do, which is a layer is removed and you have nothing but your deepest inner resources and instincts because you can't talk and have no idea what's happening. And Saxon is finding that he, he's kind of in awe, you know, like he actually is left with kind of a gentle and profoundly vulnerable.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like Lachlan is actually like his inner self is much more in command when stripped away than Saxon's is. And I love to see that they're.

[Josh Bearman]

Having their little boys chat and then Lachlan says one I'm gonna take you down.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, come here.

[Josh Bearman]

And then Saxon is. I think he knows. Oh, that's what I want to hear. That's what I want to hear from this kid. But he doesn't know what that is about to mean because then when he is the one person who's afraid to take the drugs and does. And you get the sense even that he's not even necessarily a big drinker. He doesn't get drunk. And he says, even like you slow down because you got to get the ladies drunk. So he's like, he, you know, like tosses back a few frosty ones, but he's not out there getting drunk. So to be.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh no. Yeah, he's like a diet beer type, you know what I mean? Like he's doing Miller High life and alternating, you know, to.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

And my girls, my girls Chelsea and Chloe are like, yeah, whatever, like I'll do this on a Tuesday, you know, right? There's like, okay, it doesn't matter. Chloe and Chelsea's conversation when they are girl talking on the yacht and she. And Chelsea's like, he's like my child.

[Josh Bearman]

Right, well. And she says, you can't spend your life trying to rescue people. But that is exactly what she's gonna do.

[Gia Tolentino]

And she's on a yacht and she's going to a full moon party and she's in this beautiful place and all she can do is think about her 50 year old boyfriend who might be about to murder someone.

[Josh Bearman]

Right?

[Gia Tolentino]

The foursome at the full moon party, they're not aggressive there, you know, they're kind of feeling out what's gonna happen later. They're sitting on the beholding the fireworks, right?

[Josh Bearman]

They're in a little bit more of a. Like, a contemplative state because they're all.

[Gia Tolentino]

Thinking about existence kind of. Right. It sort of feels like all four of them are in a space of not quite discontentment, but sort of existential transition in a little bit of a way, where Chloe's like, I got into this business for, like, money and constant attention from this man. And now.

[Josh Bearman]

And relationships run its course.

[Gia Tolentino]

Relationships run its course. And Chelsea is wondering if hers has too. Why am I just on the hook for this guy? And Lachlan is like, what will become of me? What is the form my power will take? And do I have any? And can I exert it over my brother? And is he right about everything, or is he not? And my sister's about to leave me, and what does that mean? And Saxon is like, I know exactly what the world is. And he takes the struggle. And he's like, whoa.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, Right, right, right. He would have been the person that, if you'd asked him, he'd be like, no, no, no. I don't question anything. And then. Well, now he does.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yes.

[Josh Bearman]

But what's interesting, this might have been some kind of sense memory for me because I had kind of a similar experience while I happened to be there when the full moon party was shooting. And it's 50,000 people. It's this ridiculous scene. It is not my scene. It's not where I ever would have wound up going. And neither was it, really, for most of the cast. So everybody had this amped up, weird energy, like, we're going to the full moon.

[Gia Tolentino]

And what? The crowd is sort of, like, loose at heel. Backpackers that are on month seven.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

There's a lot of that, like, white people in Dantevas.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes. There's people getting, like, black light painting, you know, and, like, butterflies on their face and girls wearing, like, fairy wings and dudes, like, with a backpack and no shirt on. It really is just sort of like spring break, Daytona beach, but Thai beach style.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right, right, right.

[Josh Bearman]

And so. And it's ridiculous. And there's dudes breathing fire, and you get these, like, buckets of booze. You get, like, a drink. It's in a bucket, you know? And I just did have this experience where at a certain point, we were, like, making fun of the party, kind of observing the party. And then there just was a moment where, like, now I'm at this party.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, it's unironic.

[Josh Bearman]

And then I'm not. There's no irony anymore. We're dancing. And then that went on for Hours I had, like, dropped in, which is what happens in the episode, right? Like, they all kind of, like, drop into this experience of like, okay, let's go for it.

[Gia Tolentino]

And you did it just through the experience rather than through Mackenzie's sweet tarts or whatever.

[Josh Bearman]

I don't even need a drug. I'm high on life, man. I did it. And then swap over to the girls, and the party is just getting crazy. I mean, it's like the lights are flashing, the music is pounding, and they get onto the dance floor with the three Russians. This was thrilling. I found this.

[Gia Tolentino]

I adored it.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

I adored it for so many reasons. I was thinking back to when we talked to Michelle Monaghan, and she was saying, jacqueline is very interested in sort of control but also letting loose. And this was the episode. Like, Jacquelyn is on an unarticulated journey that's nonetheless extremely clear to the viewer. Right? Like, we see her at the club. She's finally. She's found the party she wanted to get to the whole time.

[Josh Bearman]

She has engineered the perfect party.

[Gia Tolentino]

Exactly. Like, she's found the place where she. Where she can look at herself as if someone else is looking at her, which is what this character kind of wants, Right? Like, she wants to be looking hot, to be looking young, to have younger, hot men all around her and watching her. And we literally get her audience that there are these other three hot girls who are looking at her with great animosity. And the more they look at her with animosity and jealousy, the more she is just lusciously loving it.

[Josh Bearman]

Oh, my God, it was so good. And they're each reacting to the party in a different way.

[Gia Tolentino]

The three actresses were so good, like, the entire time. You can see that Leslie Bibb is uncomfortable even when the other girls are dancing, absolutely free of inhibition. She is conscious that she's sweaty. She's conscious that she's a little tired. You can see immediately that she's already hoping the night will be over. She's checking her watch. She's like, okay, maybe another hour, and then we can just go to bed.

[Josh Bearman]

Now the party is the mirror, right?

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, and unfortunately, that got assigned to Vlad, the guy with the live Laugh Love mural on his chest, the silver mural.

[Josh Bearman]

He had a tough life.

[Gia Tolentino]

He had such a tough life. But he can't. He simply can't stop talking about it. They're all like, yeah, what a fun party. You're so hot. And he's like, my mother died when I was 12.

[Josh Bearman]

Right? That's true. So we can Sympathize with Kate a little bit. She got kind of the dud. She got the dud, but she kind of assigned herself the dud. Right. Because she's the dud between the three of them, Right? Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

In this context. And she's hating to be the dud.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

Kate does not consider herself a dud.

[Josh Bearman]

No.

[Gia Tolentino]

You know, she's like, I'm prettier than Laurie. Why do I have flags?

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, exactly. Right. But there's, like, a great satisfaction for Laurie and Jacqueline. I feel like I got, like, I shed a tear in the party scene, watching those girls dance.

[Gia Tolentino]

Really?

[Josh Bearman]

I'm really feeling it for them.

[Gia Tolentino]

So Belinda has her lovely romantic moment. I loved that for her.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

I really felt so happy for her.

[Josh Bearman]

She's having her quiet courtship with Pornchai.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. She's like, do you guys have consent in Thailand?

[Josh Bearman]

But just so you know, I'm just.

[Parker Posey]

This is consent, if that is. You guys do that here.

[Gia Tolentino]

We just started, so there's.

[Parker Posey]

I may okay with. It's like.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's whatever.

[Josh Bearman]

It's whatever you. That's a beautifully comic scene.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, I thought it was. So performance is great. There's room in this bed.

[Josh Bearman]

I know. It could be this bed. It could be that bed. They face an external threat, the monitor lizard. And then that brings them together. The tonal tension in the show is so effective, by the way, that it's ratcheting up at the party between the two different party scenes. And then every so often, flashing back to the sort of quiet of the hotel and what's going on there, which is Belinda's careful sleuthing.

[Gia Tolentino]

And she suggests calling all the police.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, exactly. Let's call all the police.

[Gia Tolentino]

And then Fabian goes into full Swiss banker mode whenever she's like. Like, someone here might be a killer. And he's like, that's none of my business.

[Parker Posey]

It's bad form to talk about the guest in this way.

[Josh Bearman]

Some people here have colorful pasts. It's really not wise to stir anything up. Exactly. You don't want to know who the killers are.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

The Ratliff parents and Piper are having their reduced Ratliff family dinner.

[Gia Tolentino]

Parker Posey is really giving us so much. She's really on a lorazepam Come down. She's like, you're gonna be in Nxivum. You could return with a completely different set of values. And Piper's like, that's the point. But Piper also says that she feels that she needs to do this because she needs to understand what's gonna make her happy.

[Josh Bearman]

Right. I mean, it is, it's funny. It's like she's articulating the explicit. It's almost like the schoolgirl's version of the search, the thematic idea of the show of searching. Right. She's expressing out loud in this well articulated way what everybody else can't really figure out how to say for themselves.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, there's a lot in here about virtue structures and ideas of pleasure and an idea of, you know, like, what everyone's personal code of ethics are and how that flings them onto this kind of mad evening. But I just thought it was really funny. That enlightened Piper, ostensibly the voice of the purist version of the show's thematic searching, is, I think, quite tellingly, she's saying, I want to know what is gonna make me happy. Not. I mean, maybe the closest that anyone gets to saying it here is Lachlan.

[Josh Bearman]

But what if this life is just.

[Parker Posey]

A test, like, to see if we.

[Josh Bearman]

Can become better people? No.

[Carrie Coon]

What?

[Josh Bearman]

Whereas Piper is studying it in and wants to go spend like a year at a monastery to try to even figure out what the question that Lachlan just spontaneously presented to his brother is, listen, I admire her sort of like a student earnest approach to learning about this other culture that is clearly gonna be more meaningful to her than the world she grew up in. Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

She understands the falsity in her parents values with a capital V. But Piper's.

[Josh Bearman]

Like, I gotta go to this place for a year to even figure out what I might want to understand about myself. Whereas everybody else is at the party and they're finding out, they're trying, they're.

[Gia Tolentino]

Testing it in real time.

[Josh Bearman]

It's like, yes. Another completely different form of its own transcendence, right. Is what's happening at that party or on the dance floor and she's doing all this work to figure it out.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's like, what is pleasure? What is it sitting alone in your hotel? You're like, what is it? And then the other everyone else is just like, well, let's try it on, let's find out. Well, yeah, it's like everyone is approaching this episode with like a very clear idea of like, what will make me happy? And they're either aligning with or totally at odds with the circumstances in which they find themselves. One suspects that if Piper had just gone with her siblings and done some drugs and sat on the edge of the ocean and looked at the fireworks, she. She would feel the feeling that she seeks when she prays and feels that presence. You Know what I mean? Like, it's sort of like you. Yeah, I kind of. I want that for her. I was so happy for Laurie in a lot of this episode, you know, until the very end, where she is getting, you know, to hear from Valentin that she's a sexy dancer. She's whipping her hair around. She's taken the shot. She's like, I'm the girl that takes the shots. She's getting to feel cool and reckless and desired. Her top comes off. Like, she gets. One of my favorite situations in the world, which is when you're in a pool and someone outside the pool gives you a new drink. I'm like, wow, that's just. That's living. When that happens, you're living. You know, it's four in the morning.

[Josh Bearman]

You're doing it right.

[Gia Tolentino]

Doing it right. And, yeah, Leslie Bibb is in her full, like, button up, PJs, like, you know what, guys?

[Carrie Coon]

I think the night's over. We need our beauty sleep.

[Parker Posey]

I'm so sorry.

[Gia Tolentino]

I'm so sorry. We're old ladies.

[Josh Bearman]

Kate throws a wet blanket on the party, right?

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, as the party breaks up, Laurie has a moment with Valentin, right? Like, she's kind of cuddling, and, like, they have this sort of close goodbye. And Laurie, it's coherent with her character that she's not making a move. And instead, she's just in this glow of having felt desirable, and she's doing her little moves, you know, she's, like, doing her little moves by the pool. Second only to when Saxon, totally out of his depth, is doing, like, Saturday Night Fever hands at the Full Moon party. And I was like, not Saturday Night Fever hands at the Full Moon party. But then Jacqueline is back in her room. She gets a text. I actually thought, you know, my dumb ass. I was like, oh, my God. Harrison finally texts back, and they're gonna, like, have FaceTime sex or something. But it's Valentine.

[Josh Bearman]

Mm.

[Gia Tolentino]

And she's been plotting behind Laurie's back the whole time. And the alliances are about to switch again. But maybe we have been saving the most shocking sexual revelation of all for last, which is that Lachlan asserts dominance over Saxon.

[Josh Bearman]

Right? He makes good on his promise hanging.

[Gia Tolentino]

Out with him by giving him.

[Josh Bearman]

Oh, my God, your incest.

[Gia Tolentino]

It arrived, but it arrived in the.

[Josh Bearman]

It was not what you were expecting.

[Gia Tolentino]

I never expected it to be Lachlan. I mean, we knew there was gonna be incest from.

[Josh Bearman]

Something's happening.

[Gia Tolentino]

Something. You know, the psychosexual dynamics are too. But I loved, you know, despite the Impulse, perhaps, being toxic, of asserting dominance of your sibling by sexually aggressing upon them. Like, they got the guy. That Chelsea in particular, has been feeling antagonistic, to do something that will kind of horrify himself the next day. And when he takes the joke, he's like, now, no one take advantage of me.

[Josh Bearman]

You know, what did you think the charitable view is? That it's, you know, some surprise intimacy. I don't know. I also. Well, I didn't expect it. So at the beginning, when they walk into the villa and they have to decide on the bedrooms, and Saxon talks about adult genitals, and you're like, ooh, the promise of incest lurks. And I was like, yeah, no, I don't think so. Like, that's not gonna happen. And then here it is.

[Gia Tolentino]

You thought it wasn't.

[Josh Bearman]

No, I didn't believe it.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Lachlan is. To me, he's the winner of this episode. Hugely. Hugely. We should talk, though, about the reason why I asked you, Josh, a white man, if actually you felt that you were an Asian girl on the inside is because of Sam Rockwell's as Frank. His monologue in the bar to Walton Goggins. I mean, Walton Goggins is giving his face as it shifts between like, you're kidding me? And then it goes to like, whoa, you're not kidding me. And then by the end, in his mind, he's like, damn, everyone's got problems, you know, he's like, damn, I'm not the only one that's like, actually, you might be more fucked up than me.

[Sam Rockwell]

Sex is a poetic act. It's a metaphor. Metaphor for what? Are we our forms? Am I a middle aged white guy on the inside, too? Or inside, could I be an Asian girl?

[Josh Bearman]

Right. I don't know. This is just an astonishing sequence or scene. Even just the one. It's just one scene and it's one conversation and it's this incredible monologue. And so it's. Yeah, it's like a monologue in the mode of, like, classic. It's like Olivier and, like, it is an incredible story that he tells and the way he tells it. And then on the look on Rick Walton Goga's face as he's assimilating this knowledge, this new story is incredible. I also love what's funny about it, is they're old friends and they haven't seen each other in a while, and there's kind of like always you see old friends, like, I wonder what's different.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, well, the first sign is quite a lot and it's like he's drinking chamomile tea.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes, that's the setup for like, oh, we're gonna learn something. He's so. And you always think like, oh, yeah, okay, my friend got sober. I know what that story is. Nope, don't know what that story is.

[Gia Tolentino]

And Frank is still enough in the life or whatever it is that he can be a fixer, he can be a purveyor of some whatever. We don't know what he gives Rick exactly. Right? I mean, we can, but we don't. Yes, we can assume, but we don't know at all. And I was wondering if and when and probably when this show was going to deal. Cause it's kind of obliquely dealt with this, you know, the subtext of setting the show in Thailand, which, I mean, it is like a place of profound sexual exploitation by Westerners, you know, whatever. And it was like, how are we gonna get that square in the face at some point? Cause it feels like we have to. And we will. And we did in the wildest, the wildest way, where Sam Rockwell starts talking in the mode of all of the other guys that we've met in the show, which is just like, yeah, like, I like Asian girls. So I came here and I hear, to fuck Asian girl. And then this crew turns about seven more times all the way around. The delivery of it is amazing. Like, how would we even describe the way he delivers it? It's not deadpan. It's almost like there is definitely some connection to the way that people who are sober and Al Anon or whatever it is are accustomed to delivering.

[Josh Bearman]

Oh, right, he's sharing.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's sharing. He's accustomed to, you know, absolutely bonkers years, long periods of people's life being boiled down to 45 seconds and delivered with a completely straight face and unblinking eye contact. And he's doing it here.

[Josh Bearman]

He's also. I mean, his delivery is very matter of fact, right? And he's telling him the story, but he's also so self assured of where he is and who he is that he betrays no trace of fear about telling his friend what he tells him. Which is like such a funny way to invert what his, like your Asian fetish turns out to be different, right? He says, he starts like, oh, I have an Asian fetish. That fetish turns out to be something else entirely, right?

[Gia Tolentino]

It turns out that I need to put on lingerie and perfume and pretend I am an Asian girl. And also I have to pay an Asian girl to Sit in the corner of the room and stare at us.

[Josh Bearman]

To be like another facet of my sort of projected self.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right.

[Josh Bearman]

This is what I thought was just astonishing about this. Cause it's like Frank is like blowing Rick's mind, right? He's sitting there kind of like with his doers, like, oh, wow. And it's not even like, what did I get myself into? He is just accepting this new information about his friend. And it's like this incredible monologue about his kink, which turns out to actually be this profound idea about decoupling your identity. Right. Which is what the show is about.

[Gia Tolentino]

The identity of the racism. Actually, Frank has found out Frank has, has a very particular angle on the idea of identity being a prison.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes. Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

And he's found a very particular solution. And it is one that it's like, oh, this man has more access to the deepest, darkest, truest parts of himself, you know? But also, you can't look at Frank and say, oh, he's enlightened, you know, it's like he's still giving. Like every other person is an instrument to me. Right. Like, it's like the way that he conceives of this profound truth of his sexual identity is only reached through blunt force, mass scale instrumentalization of other people's identities and bodies. So it's like he's transcended and yet he's deeper in the shit than anyone else too.

[Josh Bearman]

It's embedded in a context that requires some external factors. It's not completely internal. Even though it is about his identity and actually coming to some self realization I think, that the others have not had. Right. There is something going on where, I mean, he says, oh, wow, well, sex is a poetic act. It's like he uses carnality as a mode of seeking. And so it's like trying to discover the infinite by getting close to death via sex while not being yourself and trying to understand yourself through other people and all this. I was like, this is a new idea. I had not thought of this before and I was sure as fuck not prepared for Frank, the guy who's going to help get our guy Rick tomorrow, calling in the final figure to deliver this new idea.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And there's a way in which it's this very funny perversion of this Buddhist idea of reincarnation and different souls in different bodies. And that in a past life we could have been this other thing.

[Josh Bearman]

Right. It's true. And also just the egolessness in the throes of like pure sexual reverie. Right. So that's Another kind of way to try to get towards this glimpse. The absolute right. Right. Which, like Piper's seeking one way, they're seeking a different way. Over at the Full Moon party. And then Frank is seeing.

[Gia Tolentino]

Frank blows the door off the hinges with his way.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. The episode ends on Tim Ratliff with the gun. Bertha's been trying to get the gun back the whole time. And he's writing a suicide note and he's gonna kill himself, but he's interrupted by his wife. And so then he reveals a little bit obliquely about here's what's wrong is all the expectations. Do you know what I've been ever since I was a kid? And then again, the identity is a prison. Those expectations are what made him into the person that he is that did the favor for the $10 million to be a pillar of the community, to be in the country club, to have the beautiful family where everybody can go to Duke. And then now the agony he must be in to not be able to explore the.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, he's so good. This episode, the shift from swaggering business dad to broken sack of play. D'oh.

[Carrie Coon]

Sorry, sorry.

[Josh Bearman]

It's not up sorts.

[Carrie Coon]

It's just stress.

[Gia Tolentino]

We had learned earlier in the episode that he was an altar boy. He prays for deliverance.

[Josh Bearman]

Right?

[Gia Tolentino]

He actually humbles himself for the first time in this entire plot arc. Like every other tactic that he has taken is one of evasion or confrontation. And here he prostrates himself existentially and it's like, I can't find my way out on.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

And it's like, can he be saved is the question.

[Josh Bearman]

Right. This being the mid point of the show, it's the point at which all the characters have accepted where they are and they're also making choices and like crossing the Rubicon. Right? So there is some kind of built in sense of like they're all now making these choices and how is it going to play out for the rest of the season?

[Gia Tolentino]

Right? It's like everyone has come in with a very fixed, verbalized, clear idea of who they are and what they are about and what value system they abide by. And these things have all been externalized in conversation. And we have watched these characters say who they are and what they believe in. You know, the girls through gossiping, the rat lives through this overt conversation. Chelsea and Rick through their interaction with each other. And now this has all been tested in various ways. Even Chelsea's commitment to love and connection and this eternally recurring partnership, she believes she has all of these things are tested. And the question for me is, like, which characters will end the season with this thing that has been exposed, just instantly recovered with the exact same facade that was there before and which are.

[Josh Bearman]

Gonna stay cracked open, will be transformed, basically. Right?

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And I think that this season is opening up to that possibility of transformation more so than other ones, like, inherently, because of the themes that are emerging and it's dangling the possibility of actual transformation. I mean, even in the, like, the conversations that Rick is having with the therapist. Right. Like, there's a who will be converted to something else and who will not, and I don't know.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. And it's also interesting. It is kind of like a meta. The show is making a commentary, which is travel in the modern age is about sort of vacation and like pina coladas. Right. It's about reading your summer read and your Mai Tai. Whereas travel before, I don't know, the 19th century was dangerous or magical. Right. All the mythical stories, like, you're gonna go somewhere, acquire knowledge. Yeah, acquire knowledge, learn something about yourself, Be transformed or die in glory or whatever. That's not what travel is about. And anymore. And so what it's saying is, like, maybe it is, right? Maybe you will go to a foreign place and discover something exotic, not in the colonial sense, but outside of yourself, and come back a different person, if you come back at all. Because, of course, somebody's not going to make it back. And now we'll be speaking to Carrie Coon. Welcome, Carrie Coon, to the official White Lotus Season 3 podcast.

[Parker Posey]

It's so exciting. We get to do all these companion things now to TV shows. It's not just a TV show anymore.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's a podcast.

[Josh Bearman]

It's a content suite.

[Parker Posey]

Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay. So the dynamic between the three girlies is long standing. They've been friends forever. How conscious is Laurie of the power dynamic between them? And how does she think about it sort of coming into the vacation?

[Parker Posey]

Oh, it's just like any. I mean, old friends are like family. So as soon as you're reunited, you default to your position in the dynamic, don't you? And I think what Laurie is starting to question, what it's forced into relief, is Laurie's own choices about her life. You know, she's. There's always the presumption that other people are judging you, even if they're not actually thinking about you. But Laurie, I think, feels that they must all be judging and thinking about her and she's not feeling great about her life. Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

And in this case, though, she's correct. Right. As she finds out at the end of, you know, it's like, not just you think it, but she sees them gossiping about her, and that's when she has that great. We have that great moment at the end of the first episode.

[Parker Posey]

Right. But she's also participating in that system.

[Carrie Coon]

Right.

[Parker Posey]

She's. As soon as somebody walks away, we're talking about them. And of course, she has the weird pressure of having a famous friend, which is a strange. When you've known someone your whole life, and then suddenly they're catapulted into the public eye, you sort of start to observe them as an outsider in a way. So she has that relationship, of course, with Jacqueline, and then, you know, her other friend is pulling away from her ideologically, I would say, which is its own kind of shock for her. And I think she feels righteous in her positions, you know, having wrestling with what she's wrestling with at home. And she's not really been open with her friends about how hard it's been for her in her personal life because she's pretending everything's fine, which we all are doing.

[Josh Bearman]

We were sort of intrigued as we were watching the show how the sort of. Each two sets of the women get a chance to talk to each other.

[Parker Posey]

Yes.

[Josh Bearman]

And so that's super relatable, I think. Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

And so. And so. And G was like, oh, yeah, sure. Every woman is going to be able to recognize themselves and their sets of friends in this. So we were wondering, did you know a Jacqueline in high school?

[Parker Posey]

I am the Jacqueline from high school. I mean, honestly. Right. I'm the person from my high school who's now living in the public eye.

[Carrie Coon]

Right.

[Parker Posey]

And so what I've received, you know, my life is live. I don't get recognized on the street or anything, so I'm not living that life. It's all happening on the Internet. But the thing that I've actually been conscious of is that the people from my childhood are actually quite warm and loving. You know, they'll reach out on Facebook and sort of celebrate my success, because I think everybody feels a little hometown pride. Right. If you come from a small town like I come from, when somebody gets out and is sort of doing well, there's something there to celebrate, and you feel like you're participating in something positive. I have not received a lot of negative energy, and maybe it's because I'm from the Midwest and people aren't, you know, as jaded as they would be, like from New York, when everybody went to Juilliard and only one of you got out. You know, so I don't have that sort of thing. So, I mean, so I guess Jacqueline. Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

But if you're not, you know, sniping people's love interests on vacation, then you're not really the job, you know.

[Parker Posey]

Yeah, Right. Which I also, you know, did. Yeah. No, I was definitely not a good friend for a long time. I didn't understand female friendship until really late in my life. And so in some ways this storyline is pretty far from me because I actually found friendship with women very challenging when I was a young woman just because of the way that I was taught. I just didn't have a relationship to what. What female friendship was. And so in some ways that was the heart. That was the most underexplored part for me in jumping into this friendship with these women. Because I don't actually have a lot of old friends from my past like that. I don't have these holdover relationships in the same way.

[Gia Tolentino]

I think what the dynamic shows, though, that even in the most natural, long standing, old, you know, long founded relationships, it's still complicated. Like, it's still. There's still knives in there and wherever.

[Parker Posey]

You go, there you are. I mean, the point that Laurie is making is how little they've actually changed in so many ways. And also because, you know, ostensibly because they're the same age, they're supposed to be occupying similar positions in their life in terms of their home lives or their success. And so inevitably you start to compare yourself. That's the world we're living in. And when those women are gossiping about each other, it's all about insecurity and it's all about justifying the choices they've made and making them feel better about themselves, about where they are, you know, finding something to cherry pick that they've done better. It's just human nature. It's the curse. That's the curse of being a human being. You know, it's just, you can go to Thailand, but like, all your stuff is there with you and you're carrying it and unpacking it.

[Josh Bearman]

Your character is the one at the beginning who says, oh, we're all mirrors of each other. And we all, like when we were kids, we all saw each other in ourselves. And then. But as you get older, that becomes the mirror, mirror on the wall. Who's the fairest of them all, Right?

[Parker Posey]

Exactly.

[Josh Bearman]

It's a dangerous mirror to look at.

[Parker Posey]

It sure is. And you know, Lori's Laurie struggling with her. We Think some alcoholism. Right. She's looking a little old and a little tired.

[Gia Tolentino]

They're like, your doctor is not as good as our doctor.

[Parker Posey]

Exactly. And I think she's, you know, she's not doing work and she's. We also made the choice, Rebecca Hickey and I and Michelle, my other makeup artist, we decided that Lori would also have the wrong nail color. So, like, Lori's stuff is intentionally just a little bit off.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, right.

[Parker Posey]

She didn't have time to go shopping. She didn't pack very well. She's a New Yorker. She doesn't spend a lot of time in the resort life. So she's like, it's not quite right. And she feels it. She feels how. It's just not quite right. You know, she feels like the odd man out.

[Gia Tolentino]

I have a question for you. Playing Bertha and then playing Laurie and also being the Jacqueline of your high school friend group, I wonder if you could talk about, you know, playing the alpha, being an alpha and then the fun, the particular fun and the nuance of playing a character like Laurie that's at the bottom of the pecking order.

[Parker Posey]

Oh, that's so interesting. You know, I'm a middle child. I'm a middle child of five, and so I've always been a linchpin, a harmonizer. I'm not. I don't feel myself as an Alpha. Now, that's not true. I can't be entirely objective about my way in the world because I was also captain of my soccer team and class president. So clearly I am an alpha and would express myself very forcefully, but that's not the way I saw myself. And so for me, playing somebody like Bertha feels far from me. Like, I feel. I'm like, no, no, I'm the. I'm the, you know, the harmonizer. I'm the. I'm the person who's bringing balance to these relationships. I'm not dominating, but that's not the way I occur to other people, I think. And so. So it's an interesting act of like, oh, actually, I have to sort of be willing to recognize and embrace these parts of myself that I don't actually see. That's not. That's not how I see myself. It's not part of my self concept, but it's really fun to lean into in that regard. Lori actually feels much closer to who I feel that in my life. I always felt like, for whatever reason, the way I grew up and being in the middle, I've always felt, like a little bit left out. I always felt like left out waiting to happen. And even as feeling like an interloper in Hollywood, you know, I come from a small town in Ohio, and I always felt like everybody knew things I didn't know on a set in fashion. Like, every space I go in, I'm at a deficit. I'm operating with some deficit, and I'm pretending.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right.

[Parker Posey]

That's the imposter syndrome. Kind of classic. And I think for me, that part of Laurie, I feel such tenderness for her. And I, like I say because I struggled in my life with female friendship because of the way I grew up, I feel like I just feel so much love for her. Whereas Bertha always feels like I'm kind of putting on something. But it's something really delicious to put on. And to be asked to walk into a room with that kind of confidence was very instructive to me as a. As a woman coming up in this industry. Like, putting that skin on is actually really. It teaches you something about walking into any room as the person that you are.

[Josh Bearman]

I will say I personally was disappointed that Laurie did not take home Valentin.

[Gia Tolentino]

So I was one of the other guys.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, right. Exactly. Right, exactly. Should we just go for both? Yeah.

[Carrie Coon]

Yeah.

[Parker Posey]

She kind of doesn't go far enough, does she? But she's really having a good time. I'm glad to see that she has that moment before, you know, we go full white lotus in the end of the season. While I will also say that that was the first day on set for all those guys. The pool scene was their first day. Now, Valentin had been with us, you know, Arnaz had been with us, but the two gentlemen who popped in, they just. They hadn't actually. So they just kind of came in guns blazing, and they were so much fun. We had such a great time in the pool that night. So I want to give them a lot of credit. They're both very accomplished actors in their own countries, but they. But that was like their first day was to have to, like, jump into a pool naked in a show that had been already running for several months. So I have to give those actors so much credit. They were so playful and so much fun, and they made that a lot easier. But I do love that Mike gives Laurie this real moment where she gets to embrace the nostalgia. Right. She does feel like finally the girls trip she wanted is happening before things start to fall apart. And, yeah, I was disappointed for her, too. She didn't get to.

[Gia Tolentino]

And if she has that little triumphant.

[Parker Posey]

Walk when they leave, a little dance, a dance tribute to my mom, it's just a little off rhythmically. But yeah, it's, it's, it was such a fun night. It's really a. It's a hoot. And it's very White Lotus, right? To kind of be that irreverent and hedonistic.

[Josh Bearman]

It's great. Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you so much.

[Parker Posey]

It's good to see you.

[Gia Tolentino]

Of course. She's the jacqueline, right?

[Josh Bearman]

That was. I was a little surprised she was like, right away.

[Gia Tolentino]

But then she was like, I'm the nice Jacklyn.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm not the jacqueline you see on screen, but I am the jacqueline in my. In the environment of my small town setting.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And now we're gonna talk to Parker Posey.

[Parker Posey]

There is no thesis.

[Josh Bearman]

There's no thesis.

[Parker Posey]

We're here to check out this meditation.

[Gia Tolentino]

Center because I'm going to live there.

[Parker Posey]

For at least the next year.

[Carrie Coon]

You want to live in Taiwan?

[Josh Bearman]

Welcome, Parker Posey, to the official White Lotus Season three podcast.

[Carrie Coon]

Thank you.

[Josh Bearman]

Nice to have you.

[Carrie Coon]

Thank you. Nice to be here.

[Gia Tolentino]

Really excited to talk to you. And my number one question is, does Victoria Ratliff know that she's in Thailand?

[Carrie Coon]

I think it sounds familiar to her.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Carrie Coon]

Somewhere around she could be reminded about it, you know. Oh, okay. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. She. Imagine that person who doesn't know where they're going, you know, landing there. But she's had the help of her pills and she's very strong willed, you know, she wants to be close to her family, which is just staying in her room, getting some massage, going back to the room, ordering in and being as cozy as she can be with her perfect family.

[Gia Tolentino]

I was wondering, was there thinking about how Jennifer Coolidge had sort of done some improv in the first couple of seasons? Was there room for improv with Victoria? The sort of scratch my arm moment.

[Carrie Coon]

Oh, right, yeah. Mike White is like. He's an actor too. He's an actor. He's a very strong writer. And on set he felt like an acting buddy. And a lot of the actors talk about this where he kind of takes over. He takes what you're giving him and he'll mirror it back to you and then play a little as the camera's rolling and yeah, just add whatever. So that was fun to be able to create and to work like that. I have no idea what's in, what has been edited or what has been used because I haven't seen it and I don't like to watch myself. But I've heard that I Could trust Mike and just like a crazy quilt, right? This is how he works. He gets a lot of material, and then in the editing, it becomes the White Lotus thing that it's supposed to be. So it was a really fun way to work. And it was like an extreme sport, actually. It was kind of improvisational, but also very, you know, it was extreme. We traveled a lot. Right. But we also got to play. And I was so blown away just to be in another country like Thailand. I'd never been to Asia.

[Josh Bearman]

At this point in the show. The sort of chickens are coming home to roost for Tim. This bad deal with Kenny, and it's not yet clear to Victoria, but he's obviously acting different and sort of the family is under threat. But the whole time, Victoria's saying, talking about the family's values, we have these good values. And those people with the boat, do they have good values? And so we were wondering, thinking about that, is Victoria's, like, recitation always of, like, what our families are? Is that like a. Like a. Like a true belief or almost like a spell trying to, like, to ward off what she knows is actually a rot underneath the families.

[Carrie Coon]

I feel like she's living in a man's world in these conditions that are so opposed to her as a woman. Like, men and women are so different. Like, this is a dopamine dominated family of achieving and being something that's really important, but it's not authentic. And I think she's really kind of. She's so distorted in how she's looking at her family. She doesn't. She's a fragmented person, spoiled rotten. I think she came from a lot of money and was allowed to create the reality, you know, around her. But I don't think it's hers. That's a great question. I think, you know, Southern women, the archetypal, like, Tennessee Williams character, you know, for me, I thought a lot about that kind of stuff. And as a performer, being able to finally do something like that, which I love. But this, you know, Maggie the cat, like a cat on a hot tin roof. And just like this passion and this, like, it's so human and it's so female. And the Southern drama of, you know, being able to live with your feelings and your needs and your passion is just so great for tv. It's great when you travel around the world and people go, where are you from? And you say, america. And they come up with that Southern accent. People love to imitate it. And so these Mike White shows in the White Lotus are a Lot like the Christopher Guest movies. And our time right now is very memeable. It's not just a show. It's part of the zeitgeist, and it's that kind of show that people will bring into their homes, and then they get to kind of live through these parts. My family was like that. They loved the Chris Guest movies, and it made them laugh. And they get to see through the characters that Mike has created, people that we've seen in real life that we kind of go like, oh, my God, I can't believe she's that person's like that. Yet I've seen that person. I've seen that person. I know this person. So there's a real. There's a glee in this. Like, in this world. But I think she's Victoria. I think she's. I think she's drowning in a lot of ways, but she looks at her son and she sees her father, you know, so she's, like, choosing these, like, ways to look at her reality and her world. And there's, like, a lot of power in that. And there's. You know, I don't think it's been the best for her kids that she indulges herself in such a narcissistic way. But I loved being able to portray that, you know, so that was really good. That was really fun.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. There is kind of a grandeur in the way she's doing it. And I'm from Texas, so I. You know, I know. I know so. Well, I was like, oh, I've met. I've met a version of this family. I've been at their lake house getting kind of vaguely yelled at by the dad about my internship or lack thereof. Right. But it's.

[Carrie Coon]

And you're like, I'm not your daughter.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Yeah. But it's sort of also like the drama of the repression. I mean, there's so much. There's so much power in that, too. And when will it break through? And I was wondering, I mean, do you, as you played Victoria, as things escalate, to what extent does she know? Especially as perhaps Lorazepam begins to run out and perhaps, you know, what she might overhear late at night becomes a bit clearer. How did you understand that as you were doing it?

[Carrie Coon]

I love denial. Denial is very real, darling. And I think that's what it is. I know it. No, I don't. I denied it.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right. So when she's asking, is there something? She's like, yeah, exactly.

[Carrie Coon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an alliance. I think he Has a lot on his plate in having to protect a woman like Victoria. I think the stakes of making her such a mess and someone that you think, like, needs a lot of help and can't exist without him, which I know he believes. But then we're like, no, this woman, you know, the woman behind the man. Right. And she's like. She's the one with the force. So it was really fun to play those shades in a couple and in a family.

[Gia Tolentino]

We were wondering that from the beginning.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. I had a hint of a sense, like, at the very end of the first episode, the Ratliffs are in their villa and they're talking, and they're sort of cataloging, like, what we've done and what we have. And Victoria's saying, you built all this. And I was like, is there a Lady Macbeth vibe where there's a forceful woman back there?

[Carrie Coon]

Exactly.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Carrie Coon]

I always want to bring theater into my work and those tropes of drama. And so Mike, what he's done is he's kind of like a playwright in this way of. I don't know of anyone else who's been able to be so theatrical and classic in this Chekhovian way. And this, you know, high drama, you know, who done it. Like, we all love a mystery. We all love an archetype of someone that we've seen before, like, come to life. So he brings a lot of humor to that, a lot of joy to that. I mean, the jokes were so good. He gave me such. She has such great lines.

[Gia Tolentino]

She has incredible lines. I was screaming, laughing.

[Josh Bearman]

The collective meme has been like, we.

[Gia Tolentino]

Flew over the North Pole.

[Carrie Coon]

But, like, those kinds of people that are like, where did you go today? And then they say something completely different.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay, so we asked Jason Isaacs this question. Feel. And I feel that we must ask you, who is Victoria's favorite child?

[Carrie Coon]

Patrick.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, we guessed wrong. I thought it would be Locky. What did you think?

[Josh Bearman]

I think that's what I would have guessed.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Carrie Coon]

I think, Patrick, I think Lachlan carries her sensitivity and her shadow in a way, and that she's very tender with him and knows his sensitivity, but he reminds her of her own because she's such a narcissist. I think she's like. I think she.

[Gia Tolentino]

Saxon has more armor.

[Carrie Coon]

I think she protects him intensely in her heart, you know, and with all our kids. Piper is her father's daughter. She is going to be fine, you know, but the boys are a bit more untethered or, like, a little wild. But there's something to, you know, I think Saxon's bravado that just reminds her of her granddaddy, you know, just that kind of thing. So she's sees him. She's just looking at him going, that's my grandfather. Oh, my God. It's, like bubby all over him, you know, just this, like, joy. And there's so. I think she's got a lot of heart, you know, I think there's a lot of love there and passion. It was really fun to play.

[Josh Bearman]

All right, well, thanks for joining us.

[Carrie Coon]

Thank you, guys.

[Gia Tolentino]

Thank you so much. I love how she's giving sort of stage diva, you know, like the cat on a hot tin roof moment she gave us. It was really good.

[Josh Bearman]

I know. Well, she's like, you know, luxuriating in her blossomy blouse for a while. Yeah, that was fun. I didn't realize that she. That is her accent.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, it is. She grew up in the South. Yeah. Spectacular guests this episode, if I must say so myself. And we'll see you guys for the next one. The White Lotus. This podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman. Natalia Winkelman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Pacillo, and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewin Lai Trimuin at Campside Media. Our executive producers, Josh Dean for the HBO podcast team. Our executive producers, Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Alison Cohen Soroka, and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. The official White Lotus podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch. Hey, White Lotus fans, Dream vacations call for dream wardrobes. Minus the drama Enter Abercrombie and Fitch. The long weekend collection offers effortless, elevated style, from Mila dresses that transition seamlessly from day to night to classic skirts, skorts, and crisp linen shirts. New pieces drop weekly to keep your packing fresh. Pack your bags. Your wardrobe upgrade starts with Abercrombie and Fitch.