Ep. 6 “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb

Summary

The White Lotus Official Podcast: Season 3, Episode 6 “Denials”

Release Date: March 24, 2025

Hosts: Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman
Guests: Patrick Schwarzenegger (Saxon Ratliff) and Leslie Bibb (Kate)

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Introduction to “Denials”

In Episode 6, titled “Denials,” Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman delve deep into the tumultuous aftermath of the Full Moon Party, exploring the characters' struggles as they confront the consequences of their actions. This episode, characterized by its introspective and revealing discussions, provides listeners with insightful analyses of key character developments and thematic undertones.

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Character Troubles and Dynamic Shifts

Saxon Ratliff’s Crisis
The hosts discuss Saxon Ratliff's shift from a confident, carefree individual to someone grappling with an identity crisis. Early in the episode, Saxon's world is upended, leading to significant turmoil. Gia notes, “He was the one that was telling his little brother that he needed to get laid” (02:22), highlighting his initial role as the instigator. As the episode progresses, Saxon becomes the most troubled character, evident in his physical discomfort and psychological distress.

Belinda’s Marked Fate
Belinda’s situation is also examined, where her seemingly perfect night takes a dark turn. Gia remarks, “Belinda is marked for death because of how good this episode is” (05:43), suggesting that her seemingly flawless experience hints at impending doom. The hosts analyze the subtle hints that something ominous is brewing for her character.

Greg’s Transformation
Greg undergoes a significant transformation, exhibiting “murderer vibes” (14:00). His change from a seemingly harmless character to one radiating harm adds to the episode’s tension. Gia and Leslie explore the psychological aspects of Greg's behavior, pondering whether his actions stem from anhedonia or deliberate malevolence.

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Themes of Pleasure, Suffering, and Identity

Buddhist Philosophy and Death
A recurring theme in the episode is the Buddhist perspective on death and suffering. Josh introduces the concept early on, stating, “Death is a happy return, like coming home” (01:08). This philosophy profoundly impacts Timothy’s (played by Phillip) character development. Leslie elaborates on how Timothy’s encounter with the monk transforms his fear of death into a sense of peace, yet it simultaneously deepens his existential crisis (21:12).

The Pursuit of Pleasure and Its Consequences
The podcast examines the human desire for pleasure and its inevitable link to pain. Gia articulates, “Our desire for more” (05:02), emphasizing how characters push boundaries in their quest for transcendence, often leading to destructive outcomes. This theme is vividly portrayed through the characters' interactions and decisions post-party.

Identity Crisis and Materialism
Timothy and Victoria’s struggles with their identities stripped away from their materialistic lives are central to the episode. Leslie discusses how their loss of wealth forces them to confront their true selves, questioning, “when all that’s stripped away, who are you?” (33:04). This introspection highlights the show's critique of consumerism and the elusive nature of true happiness.

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Key Scenes and Plot Developments

Morning After Revelations
The episode is aptly described as the “morning after” episode, depicting the characters’ attempts to deal with the fallout from the overnight events. Leslie compares it to the reckoning following the ecstasy of a party night, where each character is forced to face their actions and their consequences (03:12).

Belinda and Pornshy’s Encounter
A notable scene involves Belinda waking up with Pornshy, only to be caught by her son. Gia comments on the unexpectedness of the situation, creating a moment of both humor and tension (05:24). This encounter sets the stage for Belinda’s precarious position within the narrative.

Saxon’s Internal Struggle
Patrick Schwarzenegger’s portrayal of Saxon showcases a dramatic shift as he deals with the morning after. The podcast highlights his physical discomfort and introspective turmoil, emphasizing the depth of his character’s crisis (14:00).

Laurie and Kate’s Confrontation
Interpersonal conflicts surface when Kate reveals Laurie's affair with Valentin. Gia and Leslie dissect the emotional impact of this revelation, exploring themes of betrayal and the fragility of long-term friendships (09:26). This confrontation serves as a catalyst for deeper character explorations.

Piper’s Spiritual Quest
Piper’s journey towards the monastery and her profound conversation with the monk symbolize her search for meaning beyond materialism. The hosts discuss the significance of her emotional vulnerability and the monk’s teachings, which resonate with the overarching themes of death and existentialism (18:30).

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Interviews with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb

Patrick Schwarzenegger on Saxon Ratliff
Patrick delves into Saxon’s character arc, explaining how Saxon transitions from an unrestrained American male archetype to someone facing an internal identity crisis. He notes, “He is this powerful guy... but over the course of the season, he’s become the one that is really lost” (32:04). Patrick emphasizes the nuanced portrayal crafted by Mike White, balancing Saxon’s initial arrogance with his subsequent vulnerability.

Leslie Bibb on Kate
Leslie discusses her portrayal of Kate, detailing the character’s perfectionism and desire for control. She explains, “perfectionism is about control and a deep, like, trying to keep something in its place” (40:19). Leslie highlights Kate’s role as the glue of her friend group, navigating the complexities of maintaining relationships amidst emerging conflicts and revelations.

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Themes and Symbolism

The Dichotomy of Change vs. Constancy
A significant theme explored is the tension between change and constancy. Leslie articulates this through Laurie’s statement, “nobody ever changes,” juxtaposed with the evident transformations in several characters (12:49). This dichotomy underscores the characters' struggles with personal growth and the rigidity of their identities.

Symbolism of Water and Reconnection
The episode employs powerful symbolism, such as the visual of a drop of water merging back into the ocean, representing the cycle of life and death. Gia reflects on its impact on Timothy, illustrating the moment's beauty and the conflicting emotions it evokes (21:12).

Power Dynamics and Sexuality
Power dynamics are intricately woven into the characters' interactions, particularly in the case of Saxon and Lachlan. The hosts discuss the unsettling shift in their relationship, highlighting issues of consent and power reversal (14:10). This exploration adds depth to the narrative, addressing serious themes within the show's framework.

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Concluding Insights

As Episode 6 “Denials” concludes, the hosts anticipate the mounting tensions set to unfold in the upcoming episodes. The intricate plot developments, coupled with profound character explorations, set the stage for dramatic confrontations and resolutions. Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb’s insights provide a deeper understanding of their characters’ motivations and transformations, enriching the listener’s experience.

Notable Quotes:

• Josh Bearman (01:04): “When you're born, you are like a single drop of water flying upward, separated from the one giant consciousness.”
• Patrick Schwarzenegger (32:04): “Who am I? What am I?”
• Leslie Bibb (40:19): “Perfectionism is about control and a deep, like, trying to keep something in its place because something can't come out of place.”

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Final Thoughts

“Denials” serves as a pivotal episode in Season 3 of The White Lotus, unraveling layers of character complexities and thematic richness. Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman masterfully dissect the episode’s essence, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the narrative’s progression and the characters' emotional landscapes. As the tension builds towards the finale, anticipation remains high for the unfolding of these intricate storylines.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to capture the essence and key discussions of the podcast episode. For the complete experience, listeners are encouraged to tune into the official podcast on HBO or stream The White Lotus on Max.

Transcript

[Gia Tolentino]

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[Josh Bearman]

When you're born, you are like a single drop of water flying upward, separated from the one giant consciousness. You get older, you descend back down, you die, you land back into the water, become one with the ocean again.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

No more separated, no more suffering.

[Josh Bearman]

One consciousness. Death is a happy return, like coming home. Thank you.

[Gia Tolentino]

Hello, and welcome to the White Lotus Official Podcast, companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.

[Leslie Bibb]

And I'm Josh Bearman.

[Gia Tolentino]

And I have a question for you about episode six. Who's in the most trouble right now?

[Leslie Bibb]

Mmm.

[Gia Tolentino]

Who's in the worst place?

[Leslie Bibb]

Right. Okay, good question. This episode is doing a good job of, like, everybody could want to kill somebody else or be in trouble or be desperate or be the mark of somebody who's desperate.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yes. Well, it's like up till the full moon party, everyone was sowing, and now they have to reap.

[Leslie Bibb]

Now they're reaping.

[Gia Tolentino]

Now they have to reap. They're in the reaping phase. The show is in its reaping phase.

[Leslie Bibb]

Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

Who?

[Leslie Bibb]

I would have said at the beginning that Tim is in the most trouble.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Leslie Bibb]

But now Saxon.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's definitely Saxon.

[Leslie Bibb]

He's in trouble. His world has been. His world has been rocked.

[Gia Tolentino]

But he was the one that rocked it. He was the one that was telling his little brother that he needed to get laid.

[Leslie Bibb]

Get everything.

[Gia Tolentino]

That's what he says at the very beginning.

[Leslie Bibb]

All right, so let's get into this episode, which is called Denials. And as always, it's written and directed by Mike. And later in this episode, we'll be talking to Patrick Schwarzenegger, AKA Saxon, and Leslie Vib, who plays Kate in general. The episode sort of gets into. That's the morning after.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's the morning after episode. Yeah, it's the morning after episode.

[Leslie Bibb]

Many walks of shame. Right, that intersect and then throw these sets of relationships into some tumult. This is like Saturday night, Sunday morning, you know, to Some degree. It's like the ecstasy of Saturday night and then the reckoning of Sunday morning, which, by the way, I feel, even just watching it, I was like, oh, yeah, right. The morning always comes. And I feel.

[Gia Tolentino]

You mean just like in general.

[Leslie Bibb]

In general, like the morning. Well, because I was so caught up in episode five where I'm like, they're at the party. They're actually, yeah, the party's gonna last forever. They're like, you know, Piper's over there studying Buddhism, but they're transcending and experiencing a new reality at the party. And then I was like, oh no, you get your hangover. The next day comes, the morning after happens. There's no way out of it. And I felt like I had duped myself yet again into believing I was going to live forever because I was at this awesome party. I mean, in some way, all the characters are looking for transcendence in different forms. And there's drugs and sex or there are people that come from this background of money offers happiness, or where do you find your happiness? And I was kind of stirred into the belief that the ecstatic revelry can also be transcendent, which I do think it can, but I was really feeling it. And now I'm like, oh, that was not what was intended for that party.

[Gia Tolentino]

The monk says to Timothy, he's like, people run towards pleasure and they get there and they just find more pain, right? They could have had just a wonderful sort of skinny dipping time in the pool and watching the fireworks and making out on the full moon party. But. But it's like, you know, the message that is coming through the screen is that we as humans are not content with that. We have to take it one step farther. We have to cheat on our partners. We have to have sex with our brothers. We have to. You know what I mean? Like, we. Our desire for more.

[Leslie Bibb]

We have to become an Asian woman.

[Gia Tolentino]

We have to become an Asian woman. But you know what I mean? It's like there could be places where pleasure could be contentment, and yet the message of specifically Buddhism, right? It's like, if you are not mindful of what pleasure is, it will hurt you. Your relationship to it will hurt you.

[Leslie Bibb]

We see. Well, there's a little moment with Belinda. She wakes up in the arms of Pornshy. Her son catches them in bed. Sweet, funny little moment.

[Gia Tolentino]

I don't know how it happened.

[Leslie Bibb]

One minute he was helping me get.

[Gia Tolentino]

This lizard out of my room, and.

[Leslie Bibb]

The next minute we were in bed.

[Josh Bearman]

And God, I'm happy for you okay?

[Gia Tolentino]

Unfortunately, one feels that Belinda is marked for death because of how good this episode is.

[Leslie Bibb]

Everything's going well for her, so something must be off.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, like she had this hot, sweet night with this guy that's so nice and like so respectful but like, you know, is like snuggled up close to her in the morning and he starts this conversation about, you know, maybe we could start our own spa.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah. Her son has shown up. That's all she wanted. He seems impossibly here. He's proud of her. Yeah, he's proud of her.

[Gia Tolentino]

Hot son is proud of her.

[Leslie Bibb]

They have an adult relationship. It seems like from the little interactions we get. And then. Yeah, and then Ponchai asks her about, oh, maybe we could in fact open up such a place here. And that seems intriguing to her because it's a dream. And then it's also coming from somebody who's not like a solipsistic billionairess who might just like abandon her. And the idea at the drop of a hat, like what happens with Tanya, which she still feels burned by. So she's like, aha, maybe there is, this is all meant to be. Which then leaves us thinking maybe it's meant not to be.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right. And when she encounters Greg, when Greg forcibly encounters her, you know she's shaking. You know she's shaking. Cause Greg is now, he is made a full transformation into murderer. Murderer vibes. It's hard to get a clear read on what he's doing. You know, like my Occam's racer for his behavior towards Chloe is that he's in a profound case of sort of anhedonia, you know, where he's incapable of experiencing any pleasure whatsoever and cannot like, he's not really interested in having sex with his incredibly hot 28 year old girlfriend or whatever. He just, he can only process increasingly sort of violent versions of it. You know, he's interested now in harm in some way. Like he's just radiating like interested in harm. I want to have people over tonight, like a party or something.

[Josh Bearman]

I need to deal with something and I need your help.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah, I mean I was thinking about him also in relation to this idea of death as it relates to the Buddhist notion of death that we hear from the Monk and over the course of the seasons, right? Like Armand is trapped and he is released by his death at the end of season one. And then we think like, oh, poor Tanya, she died and you read that as victim. But maybe she's not a victim. Maybe he's the victim because now he's trapped here still in a state of anhedonia. He has everything he wanted. He has all this money. He has this boat, and he's this very unhappy, miserable person. He doesn't even have a revenge fantasy. He doesn't even have some, like, burning, you know, like, wounds like Rick Walton Goggins that he can maybe redeem somehow. He just is a person who's incapable of joy in any way.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right.

[Leslie Bibb]

With the gals. Kate sees Valentin sneaking out of Jacqueline's room.

[Josh Bearman]

What do you mean? I mean, he slept over with Jacqueline.

[Gia Tolentino]

I thought this was played really well. And funnily so. Kate tells Laurie, you know, what happened last night. Like, you know, I think had a sleepover, you know, and breaks this news. Obviously, Kate, at some level, knows that this will be devastating to Laurie. Right. She has been talking shit with Jacqueline about how, you know, how hard the divorce has been for Laurie and how unbelievably single she is. And they treat her as if she is someone that is, you know, the third wheel, the friend that's not chosen first. And she knows how much it would.

[Leslie Bibb]

Mean and kind of the charity case.

[Gia Tolentino]

The charity case, like, and she. They have both been sort of talking up this Laurie possibility. Although Jacquelyn more so than Kate. Like, she knows when she says, actually, Jacqueline fucked Valentine, like, she knows it's not gonna be received neutrally. But when Laurie also tries, ostensibly, to play it cool, Kate's like, oh, I thought. I thought you would think this was funny. Like, you're getting mad. Why are you getting mad?

[Leslie Bibb]

I was wondering about that. I was not of certain mind about whether Kate was just daft. I was wondering if she thought, oh, maybe we're just doing more. Two girls gossiping about the third. But I did know. What I knew for sure was that this is gonna be different than all the other gossip sessions this is gonna.

[Gia Tolentino]

Cause someone's gonna confront.

[Leslie Bibb]

It's like throwing a grenade into the. You know, into the foxhole.

[Josh Bearman]

I didn't think you were gonna care so much. I don't care.

[Gia Tolentino]

I don't.

[Josh Bearman]

It's not like I was into him.

[Gia Tolentino]

She just kept pushing the idea. Do you remember all the time she did that?

[Josh Bearman]

I do.

[Gia Tolentino]

Talking about how I'm the only single one, how I should hook up with them.

[Josh Bearman]

That's demented.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, I think that Kate is having it both ways, where she truly believes that she's just engaging in little girl talk, but deep down underneath, she knows that she has an upper hand because she has this information that one person desperately wants but doesn't know, and the other person desperately doesn't want her to share, but she doesn't want to believe herself to be a person that would do this kind of thing. Like, she's just like, I thought we were having fun. And I also thought that the way that Carrie Coon plays the. Her own response, which is like, oh, I just think it's interesting. I just think it's really interesting. Jacquelyn, you know, like, she now has the opportunity, which is. I think the character is experiencing as unpleasant because it is coming out of a place of being, like, profoundly slighted and put back on the bottom. But the way she handles that information gives her the ability to kind of be on the top here. Like, she gets to speak. Speak to Jacqueline as if she is superior to her.

[Leslie Bibb]

Now she has the moral high ground.

[Gia Tolentino]

For the first time. And I was thinking, you know, when they were having this discussion at breakfast, it was like, okay, now we're gonna see which is worse in their eyes, being a Trump voter or a cheater, you know, or even not really just a cheater. It's like a cheater who fucks over your best friend. If Jacqueline had just hooked up with a rando at the club, this would.

[Leslie Bibb]

Not be the same as.

[Gia Tolentino]

Not even close. You know, it's not even cheating.

[Leslie Bibb]

Psychological chess game that Laurie thinks Jacqueline was playing. I sort of felt sympathetic to Jacqueline, who was like, I didn't have any plan. And I don't think she did have a plan. It did just happen. But of course, she is the one who always was able to be in that position to make it happen. And that's the eternal grievance. Right. That Laurie has. I don't think Jacqueline was scheming.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, at what point in the night you think she got his number, his personal self.

[Leslie Bibb]

Oh, right. Did they not have it the whole time? Right. This is.

[Gia Tolentino]

You never saw her texting him before.

[Leslie Bibb]

Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

And so at some point of the night, she made a decision.

[Leslie Bibb]

Look at you reading between the lines.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Leslie Bibb]

In the deleted scenes. When did this even happen?

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, I think that Jacqueline. I read her as the type of person that does a lot of this hierarchical assertion of dominance, just purely on instinct, you know? Like, I don't think she. I don't think she knew she was gonna do it until she was doing it, and then she was doing it. Laurie says at some point, it's like, nobody ever changes.

[Leslie Bibb]

We're still the same people we were in the 10th grade.

[Josh Bearman]

It's just funny. It's funny. Not sure what that Means, but okay.

[Leslie Bibb]

This is what you always did.

[Josh Bearman]

Never mind, forget it, it doesn't matter.

[Leslie Bibb]

But that statement also exists in this other context of what's going on in the show in general, where some people are changing in this episode. And we've seen. I mean, Frank surely changed from last, you know, according to his monologue. And so it's interesting, like, the truth of that statement is also in some kind of conflict or tension with the truth that people are transformed. The tension between those two things is probably what is going on in this whole season. Then you have the two Ratliff boys. So they wake up on the boat. Saxon is barfing.

[Gia Tolentino]

And the thing is, a walk of shame is walk of shame. The concept itself feels very sort of Bush era American Pie. It's like we're past that as a culture. And yet, if. If it's your own brother.

[Leslie Bibb]

I can't remember last night at all.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

We both blacked out.

[Leslie Bibb]

It's sort of being revealed slowly. And then he realizes that he's. Well, he doesn't quite know what the full extent of what happened is, but even just the thought of he's jerking.

[Gia Tolentino]

Off in bed while looking at his.

[Leslie Bibb]

Brother, looking at his brother, he gets seasick and runs and barfs. You guys forced us to.

[Gia Tolentino]

I didn't force him to jerk you off. What do you mean?

[Leslie Bibb]

That never happened.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

I don't remember that.

[Gia Tolentino]

You know, we're laughing at it. Cause it's extremely funny. But it is a really sort of dark. Like Saxon is acting as if he were assaulted. You know what I mean? Like, they're in this strange position where, like, Saxon is having the morning after trauma. Like, genuinely, you know, like, of someone.

[Leslie Bibb]

He did not offer consent.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, like, of someone that did not consent to something. And. And the look that he gives Lachlan, the posture that he has, the way he holds himself when Lachlan is around, and the ease that Lachlan has in his body. You know, maybe I'm projecting here, but it feels very recognizable. Like, when he thinks about this, he gets nauseated, you know, like he's giving. Like there has been a power reversal this entire time. He's had the upper hand. He's been telling Lachlan what to do. And didn't you think there was a palpable shift? Like, Lachlan comes up, he's more or less at ease.

[Leslie Bibb]

Right?

[Gia Tolentino]

He's getting hungover, but he's more or less at ease. And he's like, I blacked out. And I'm not saying that I think Lachlan did. I mean, like, I don't think that Lachlan assaulted Saxon. I don't think that he took advantage. But there is. You know, I don't think what he did was something I would ever want to participate in personally, but I don't think he was deliberately exploiting his brother sexually. Whatever. But they have that dynamic. Like, Lachlan is at ease. Like Patrick Schwarzenegger is. He is sweating, he's gulping things. He's slapping bugs off his body. He's profoundly uncomfortable in his own skin.

[Leslie Bibb]

And that he's no longer. Yeah, the confident man who kind of, like, swishes through life with ease. Right. All of a sudden, he's not. He's not himself. So then the kids are all at the pool.

[Gia Tolentino]

Trying to blame his bad mood on the fact that Chelsea wouldn't fuck him. And Chelsea's, like, so sincerely, like, I could never. Because you don't have a soul.

[Leslie Bibb]

Once you've connected with someone on a.

[Josh Bearman]

Spiritual level, you can't go back to cheap sex. Hooking up with you would be an empty experience.

[Leslie Bibb]

And then she whispers to herself. She's, like, so sad.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. But she. Like, I love this Chelsea moment. And she's, you know, to a certain extent, like, she's completely right. Like, hooking up with Saxon would 100% be an empty experience.

[Leslie Bibb]

You know, she's a lover. She wants to connect with somebody's soul, and maybe we're gonna even. That'll happen in another life. And she's like, he has no soul. But now I wonder. He's troubled. So all of a sudden, it's like the grain of sand that becomes the pearl. Like, there's an agita that's gonna turn into something.

[Gia Tolentino]

No, I mean, Saxon is the one that needs to spend a year at the meditation retreat. Like, I mean, if we're talking about what should happen, you know, Tim and.

[Leslie Bibb]

And they go off together for a year, and they come back new people, and dad does his time, and then they get out and start some kind of, like, Habitat for Humanity type of philanthropic work. And they're reborn as the true pillars of the community that they always thought they were.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yes.

[Leslie Bibb]

And so the boys come back to the family. Piper wants to go to the monastery. And then there's this kind of astonishing encounter because Piper goes in, she sees the monk, and she's crying. She finally has a real emotional moment where you kind of see, like, for all of her sweater set perfectly, kind of a bejeweled Southern daughter self, she's a Person that is troubled, and there's nobody in her world that would ever be able to speak to her the way that this, that the monk does.

[Gia Tolentino]

And the conversation with the monk, there's a strong insinuation that she has had a moral problem with her family's way of life for a long and perhaps unarticulated time. And she's maybe coming here to make sense of it. But. Yeah, so she's 21, but as if she's 12 or something. She asks the monk, can you just tell my parents that it's okay that I stay here?

[Josh Bearman]

Right, Bring in your parents. I can answer their questions.

[Gia Tolentino]

Thank you. Thank you so much. So Timothy goes in and asks, what do you think happens after you die?

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah, so I found this whole scene to be. I mean, first of all, it hits him so hard. He's like, never heard basically anybody say anything like this to him. Right. There's nobody in his world that could ever articulate anything outside of the judgmentations, judge and judgment and the values and all the stuff that he's grown up with. And that the life of the sort of like, patriarch of the Southern family that you know so well and so suddenly a new set of words arrives, like a new, completely new idea. And he's shaken basically by this notion. And it's like the monk talks about how people come from America and the west in general, presumably, and their sort of way of life is built around indulging the self and ego and self preservation and so on. And so they are unable basically to sort of see through the forest until they get to Thailand. And that's what brings so many people here.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, I feel especially conscious of the fact that, like, you know, this monk is not saying anything about. And here they will find it. Right, right, right. Like, the point is just about what people believe that they're gonna get here. It's. It also kind of goes back to the way that Piper, ostensibly, what she wants is meaning, but she put it as happiness. And there's the way in which this entire framework has been imported as 90 minute wellness seminars at AI companies in Silicon Valley. You know what I mean? Where the reconnection with your soul, the visit to Thailand, the detox, the digital detox, the communing with the macaques or whatever. This is a type of soul reconnection that is presented as something that can contribute to you, then going back rested, reconnected, and ready to crush it another.

[Leslie Bibb]

Day, get back into the hamster wheel of American consumer capitalism.

[Gia Tolentino]

You know, like, it's like you're either. Unless you're off of it. Unless you're off of it, you're still on it, right?

[Leslie Bibb]

I mean, what he's suggesting, the monk to Timothy, is that Piper's right. You can't just go for a week and go back and you're changed. You do have to stay there for a year. You do have to work at it. You have to do what Lachlan suggests life is about, which is like. It's like a test to become a better person. Like, that is the whole point.

[Gia Tolentino]

And we have the sort of classic, this visual of a drop of water kicking up in the sea spray and then melding back into the great consciousness. But it's really kind of beautiful the way that it's played here, because what does this mean to Timothy at this exact point in time? Like, this is making him both want to die more, Right? Right. Like it's making him want to die more. It's giving him some sort of access point, some sort of ladder has dropped out of the nothingness to, like, find some sense of forgiveness or something.

[Josh Bearman]

Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like some sort of absolution. Like this idea that you just go back. You just go back into the great universal and that's it. And all of life is just. You come up and you go back down. And there's a profound relief to him in thinking of that, that what's happening to him right now is not like the Empire State Building crumbling in front of everyone's eyes, right? Like, it's actually just one more drop of water going back into the ocean. But then it makes him want to die a little more. You know, it makes him want to live more, and it also makes him want to die more. And I find that, I mean, I guess that.

[Leslie Bibb]

Right. I mean, I think he becomes less afraid to die. Right. So at the beginning, he's afraid. End of the last episode, he's got the gun to his head. Then he gets interrupted. Then in this episode, he's imagining it, but he can't imagine it. It seems too difficult, and it's painful and, like, what happens afterwards. And then the monk tells him that death is a happy return. When we die, there's no more suffering. It's like coming home. And to Tim, like, that feeling of, like, oh, right, it's just that simple. Like, I don't need to be afraid. Death has a happy return. And that seems to be like how he leaves the monastery kind of in this new frame of mind.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. But the way he puts it to his family, you know, like, Parker Posey's like, how was it? Or whatever. And he's like, he's legit, you know, like, whatever he says.

[Josh Bearman]

Well, what was it like? What did he say?

[Leslie Bibb]

I liked him seeing legitimate. You know, he's the real deal.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's the real deal. Yeah. Like, as if, like, you know, he's just job interviewed an intern or something. You know, Another thing that happens with the Ratliffs towards the end is that, you know, Victoria's worried Piper is not gonna have the creature comforts that she's used to.

[Josh Bearman]

What's next? You want her to shave her head and start banging a bongo in Times Square?

[Gia Tolentino]

And, in fact, she should never get used to anything but those creature comforts. She needs to be afraid of poverty like me and everyone else I know, because otherwise, how will she make good decisions? And Timothy's like, well, we want her to be resilient. You know, what if. You know, we want our children to be able to handle whatever comes their way? And Victoria's basically like, if I'm not rich, I'd rather be dead.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, that is functionally what she says. She says, I don't know if I'd want to live. Which. The fantasy that bookends the episode on the other side is of a new version. Compassion murder suicide.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yes. Yeah. Right. Where he's. Now, he's no longer afraid. He's like, it's a mercy killing. And then I'm out.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's coming home.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah, exactly.

[Gia Tolentino]

We didn't talk about Rick at all.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah. I will say so. I'm wondering now I'm feeling this incredible kinship with Rick in general, but I don't quite understand now that the mission is getting closer. Like, what could possibly happen that would resolve this for him? That would make him different.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And one of the main things I think we can expect to see in the next episode, you know, Walton Goggins has a really good prolonged shot at the end of the episode when he and Frank, who's pretending to be director. Director Frank. They have made it to Stratala's house. The husband has walked down the stairs. We don't have a clear look at him, but we look at Rick look at him, and he has assured Frank that he's not gonna murder him. He just needs to have the gun for a reason that doesn't have anything to do with murdering him. He just needs to sit with him for 10 minutes and make him understand he just has to almost murder him.

[Leslie Bibb]

Right, Right. I know it is a little bit of a strange mission that he has set out on and explain. I don't think he knows exactly what he wants to do.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's trying to oldboy this guy. He doesn't have enough time to oldboy this guy, you know?

[Leslie Bibb]

Right. He's only gonna have his 10 minutes.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, yeah, but so he's gonna. So Rick is gonna do a 10 minute old boy next episode and I can't wait to see what it looks like.

[Leslie Bibb]

When it was sort of a little bit vague in the distance, I was like, oh, yeah, right. He just needs to go back and like, confront what happened to him and then he'll come through, you know, anew in some way, even though that's impossible. And the fact that it's a fool's errand is becoming to me more apparent the closer it gets. Cause now he's there and he's in the house and he's gonna go talk to the guy.

[Gia Tolentino]

I've kind of had some uptake of Rick's fantasy as I imagine it. Like, I. I think he thinks he will have this confrontation and he will look this guy in the face and say, I never got to meet my father because of you. And there will be some recognition of the humanity within Rick that even Rick himself has been suppressing for 50 years or whatever it is, and that he will say sorry. You know, he thinks that he will get what he's looking for, which is a recognition from this man. Like, I think he just wants a recognition. He wants a moment of mutual recognition of, you did this to me, I did this to you. You should be sorry. I am so sorry. And then he can leave it behind as his beautiful therapist has been telling him to do.

[Leslie Bibb]

Right. I'm really with this idea. But it's like, by the way, whatever happens, I'm gonna be floored by it. I can already tell. I was almost gonna start crying. When you were just describing what you think he thinks is gonna happen, I was like, oh my God, that'd be so beautiful if that happens.

[Gia Tolentino]

I feel like Frank's gon. Like, Frank is.

[Leslie Bibb]

Frank might get crazy somehow.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, Frank's like, I'm out of this life. But if you're like, are you? Are you, Frank? To what extent are you out of this life?

[Leslie Bibb]

What if he falls off the wagon?

[Gia Tolentino]

You know? You know, the other thing that might happen is Rick could die.

[Leslie Bibb]

Right?

[Gia Tolentino]

Chelsea's been like, it comes in threes. I have a really bad feeling. I have bad feelings. Like, Rick could also die and then thus be released from the prison of the identity that this man gave him, which was fatherless orphan.

[Leslie Bibb]

I just want to also note that in our many, many iterations now of Chekhov's gun guy, Tuck has snuck back in the villa and retrieved the gun. It's like back with Gaitok, this gun has changed hands. It's appeared, it's reappeared, it's been hidden. And like, all these different things have happened with the gun. And so there is some kind of like, incredible Three Card Monty going on with the plotting of like, well, where's this gun? How's it gonna get used? How's it gonna wind up? Who's after who? And that's sort of culminating in what is actually happening at the very end of the episode where Gary, who has told Chloe that he knows that she fucked one of the brothers, he's kind of into it. And he's maybe into it or he's just. He's like, so seems so sort of jaded and disconnected from life. Cause he's not the guy that met Tanya in season one at all anymore. And so what happened to him? And is he into it? Or is he just plotting to kill somebody? Is he trying to get. I mean, he invites Belinda to come so that he can maybe kill her. And so he's basically invited everybody to come to his insane doped pad up there on the hilltop.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, my God.

[Leslie Bibb]

And so that's sort of. The episode ends on this. The clockworks chiming another hour forward as they are. Some kind of. They're going to. Something's going to happen when they all go to this dinner party. And now I'll be sitting down with Patrick Schwarzenegger to talk Saxon Ratliff.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

I love a good challenge. You know, it's better to go for what you want in life and get rejected than have the shot and not take it. We have one lifelock.

[Leslie Bibb]

All right, thanks, Patrick Schwarzenegger, for joining us on the White Lotus season three official podcast.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah. Indeed. I think last time I saw you was at the Full moon party.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

I know. Well, the aftermath. It was the days after the morning after we went and got some food.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah, right. That's right.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

Yeah. We went to that cafe. I was in search of protein.

[Leslie Bibb]

Oh, that's right.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

You were looking for your protein and good coffee.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah, well, that's actually also where we are in the show, sort of in the aftermath of the full moon party. But before we kind of get to that, I just wanted to talk about the character in general. Sort of watching it all the way through it's seem to me like almost like as Mike deals with his archetypes and then subverts them. Like, this one is like, Saxon is like the kind of unrestrained American male id, which is fun to see on screen. And so I was curious, was that fun to play? How did you think about that?

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

Yeah, I think, you know, look, when I got the audition, at first for Saxon, it was only a. I had like a one sentence logline. I think the sentence was like, he's a southern finance bro that loves to flirt or something like that. And when I got the scenes and after I booked the audition and I started to talk with Mike and kind of put my interpretation of his words that were on the page, it was evident that he was this douche and he was this character from the outside. But for Mike, he really wanted it to be something that people didn't just hate. They wanted him to be fun, laughable, enjoyable, and some elements of humanizing characteristics and vulnerability that made you want to continue to watch him. So that was something we worked on. But at the same time, which I thought was so genius by Mike, was when we, when we get into some later episodes, I was so focused on how is this character changing? What is his big moments, what it like, how is he going to be different? And I started to play this one scene we had and I played it in a certain way and he came over and he was like, what are you doing?

[Leslie Bibb]

What do you.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

What the fuck was that? And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, dude, it's only been like six days. You know, you don't need to have like a huge change. Like, it's, it's. We want the. We want as like the viewer, we want to see, like, we want to wonder is he going to change after this? And we want to see little parts of. Yes. There's. There's this internal crisis going on with him and he's starting to realize things. But I don't want to see like a full blown 360 chain, you know, and. And so I thought that was really interesting. You forget that this whole thing takes place over six days or seven days.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah, it's kind of funny. I mean, even in the show, in episode one, when everybody lands off the boat, Fabian, the hotel manager, is like, oh, here you will be changed going home. And of course in real life, nobody wants to change. They want to go back home, like who they were. Except all the characters here are like sort of forced to change by all the circumstances. And it's really fun in particular with Saxon, because at first you're like, okay, I know exactly what this is. But you're like, well, how is everybody going to come out of their identity and the way it happens for sex? And it's, like, particularly dramatic, right?

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that he's. You know, one of the interesting things is, you know, Saxon shows up day one, and he puts on this Persona that he knows everything that he is. He is this powerful guy. He looks great. He knows exactly what it is to be a man. And he tells his little brother, like, dude, getting what you want in life, that's happiness. It's all about pussy, money, and. And freedom. That's it. And I think the interesting thing is, over the course of the season, especially at episode six, he goes into the show as the most confident and comfortable, and he's, like, belittling and looking down on his siblings for not knowing what they're doing and exploring Buddhism and is. They're just completely lost and they kind of change places. He becomes the one that is really lost, you know, and the really. The one that starts to have this internal, like, identity crisis of, like, every layer of him just got stripped off and he's so confused now, like, who am I? What am I?

[Leslie Bibb]

What.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

Who do I. Like, what is. What just happened? What that power trip that just changed is. Is a lot for him.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Leslie Bibb]

You feel real pity for him. And even there's a point where he. To his father and says, like, this is all I am. I'm not anything else. And they're like, oh, no, I feel sad for this guy. Yeah.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

That's part of the overall arching theme, I think here is. Is like, that's all that. All of them are really. I mean, Timothy and Victoria. And like, there's those scenes where they're just like, what's going to happen? What am I supposed to say to my kids? Like, daddy's poor now. Like, everything is, you know, fucked. Or Victoria says, like, I don't. I don't even want to live without the money. Or, you know, it's that these material items are identifying who they are, and they're going in conjunction. And what happens is when all that's stripped away, who are you?

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

And that's a tough identity crisis for them.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah. I mean, it's very profound throughout the show. And then the Ratliff family and then the siblings, it's like, at each of these different scales and then within sex, and it kind of unfolds in this interesting way. Like on the boat, on the way to the Full Moon party. Laughlin says something sort of like, one of these days, I'm gonna own you. Right? And then Saxon's sort of like, atta boy. Yeah. Does not know what that is gonna turn out to be. Neither of them do. Right. Did you know that that was coming with the character when you signed onto the show?

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

I didn't know anything. I got the audition. Like, I said, I got the audition. It was a couple pages, you know, three different scenes. I read it. I just did what I thought, you know, how I interpreted it. And then I got a call back saying it was great. Then they were like, you're gonna meet with Mike White and he wants to do a director's. So I did that. And then when I booked it, they were like, you know, here's the scripts. You can read it now. And, I mean, they asked me ahead of time, are you comfortable with, you know, nudity? Are you comfortable with X, Y and Z? And, yeah, I said, yeah, of course. You know, I'm playing a character. And then I started to read it and read it, and episode five came, and then six came, and I was like, what the sky? God, this is just absurd. This is nuts. So, no, I had no idea. I mean, he puts Easter eggs. That's what Mike does. He puts, you know, these moments when you. In episode one, and I'm going, and I'm tickling my sister, and I'm putting. Sucking my finger and putting it in her ear, and I'm with Lachlan in the bed, and I'm naked, no regard for anybody else, and I'm walking around. I'm talking about, how am I gonna jerk off with him in the room? And, you know, all these different weird things. And I hit on every single girl that walks by. You know, there's Easter eggs of. This guy is. Something's gonna happen. It can't just be this one note character. But I did not know it was going there. No, I didn't.

[Leslie Bibb]

I was shocked, actually, when, like, that it was the development. But it is so satisfying because also, it's not just for shock value. It is actually about, like, the sense of, like, self and meaning and, like, now what. Who am I?

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

I think there's a mix. Like, I. I don't think there's anything necessarily, like, so negative or wrong with this, like, sensationalism of, like, Of a shock value. But there's also way more. Like, Mike's too smart for that. He's way more in depth and way more. Like, there's such richer Content than that. So I think that he. You know, some might say that. And then once you start to understand it and see the shift of what happens to the character from these moments, then you start to understand, oh, wow. This is actually. Mike's pretty fucking smart.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah. Well, thanks for being on the podcast, and it was great talking to you.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

Awesome, man.

[Gia Tolentino]

Thank you.

[Patrick Schwarzenegger]

I appreciate it.

[Leslie Bibb]

All right, man. Well, I know you were jealous not to be sitting beside me talking to Patrick.

[Gia Tolentino]

For the record, I did see him at the hotel gym that morning.

[Leslie Bibb]

Oh, that's right.

[Gia Tolentino]

Really exciting for me.

[Leslie Bibb]

Well, he had no idea when he signed on for the show what was going to happen to his character.

[Gia Tolentino]

I feel like maybe he just has to say that. He can't say, this is why I.

[Leslie Bibb]

Right, yeah, of course. Like, exactly. I campaigned for this.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Leslie Bibb]

I was like, I have to play that guy.

[Gia Tolentino]

But it was great interview.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah, it was great.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay, well. And now I get to talk to Leslie Bibb.

[Josh Bearman]

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Thank you. Leslie, I wanted to start by asking you first, what attracted you to Kate as a character and to the opportunity to explore this, you know, complex friendship dynamic on screen?

[Josh Bearman]

Honestly, if Mike had been like, you're the janitor who comes in and, like, sweeps up a room, but you'll be there for six months, and you'll just say, look over there. I would probably have done it. So I feel like just Mike and the project, which is a strange thing to say as an actor. Cause it's always, like, the character and stuff. But I was like. Cause you just know. And when you get the audition, you don't have all the scripts. You have this scene. And I remember, I read it, like, a few times, and it was like. Like, in. It was just. It was like, you're on a cellular level. You had something that would be able to go deep, like, you weren't gonna have to shine up a turd. Like, sometimes you're making chicken salad out of chicken shit. With some writing, it just is, you know, or you're doing massive exposition, and it's, like, complicated. It's nothing. Mike's writing is so delicious and digestible that I just knew, like, I was like, oh, I'm already jumping on the end of a diving board. Like, I just knew that whatever was gonna happen with these three women, that it was gonna be intense, complex. And then you get all eight, and you read them, and you're like, whoa, okay. And as I started to break down all eight and sort of fall in love with Kate and her quirkiness and her uncomfortableness with silence and her need to pull everybody together and her perfectionism and her insecurity. And I began to have such a softness for her and Kate sort of, you know, I mean, it's really funny. My last name is Bore. Kate Bore. I mean, she's probably not the most memorable of the three, but she's desperately wants to be the most memorable of the three. And it felt for me that it was important for Kate that it's always that Kate is the one that talks to Laurie and talks to Jacqueline. And I'm the sort of connector of the group over this time. So even though Jacqueline has, like, paid for this trip, which is so generous, I feel like it's at the provocation of Kate because I think she feels the slipping of friendship between the three of these women. And I think it's important for her because these women are a mirror of who she used to be, this fearless person she used to be. And then by no means is she apologizing for the life that she's leading. I think in her mind, she's made choices. Mike loves these enneagram tests. And when we were having our meeting about the show and Kate, when they offered it to me, he was like, I'm very good at casting. I was like, okay. And he was like, I knew that you're a perfectionist. And I was like, yes, I am. And he's like, but that's the essence of Kate, her perfectionism. And you then go, okay, but what is perfectionism? What does that represent? And to me, perfectionism is about control and a deep, like, trying to keep something in its place because something can't come out of place, because if it comes out of place, the house of cards will fall. I made this weird choice with Kate every time. You know, you eat a lot when you shoot the white lynch dinner scenes, breakfast scenes, you know, there's a lot of those scenes. And I just. You drink a lot. Like, I just made. I just knew that Kate, in her perfectionism, would have shown up on this vacation with a whole new wardrobe that she would never wear again. But, like, when I eat the food, it's always every meal. They're like, leslie, are you sure you don't want any Thai food? I was like, kate would never eat Thai food. That person doesn't. Her lack of curiosity about, you know, they don't go to 1 watts. They don't go to, like, an elephant preserve.

[Gia Tolentino]

Totally.

[Josh Bearman]

She just wants to do yoga and not leave the. Like, she's such a Westerner. You know, going. She's like the classic White Lotus Hotel guest. Like, you know, I'm gonna go say I went to Thailand and I didn't leave the hotel, you know, Totally. So, you know, every meal, I don't, you know, there's no ice cubes, there's boiled chicken, there's rice. She only eats fruit at breakfast. It's like, so weirdly controlled.

[Gia Tolentino]

That's a wonderful detail. I never noticed. So weird, but I'm so weird.

[Josh Bearman]

But I. Yeah, no, never. I'm like, I will have a glass of never.

[Gia Tolentino]

Will she cocktails? Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

No cocktails. Never. She's always like, you know, always a glass of. Glass of rose.

[Gia Tolentino]

I'm from Texas. I feel because of the way you played her, because of the way Mike White writes his characters, I was like, I feel like I know this woman. I think that she's the Jacqueline of her friend group in Austin, right? She moved from a coast. She's, you know, she's hot. She's, you know, she's not from there. Her husband has this job. I could picture she has this gorgeous, beautiful house, beautiful children, orchestrating everything. The boards of everything, the school fundraisers, the sheer whatever.

[Josh Bearman]

She wants to feel important, you know, I imagine that she met her husband and they met in college and they got married after college in one of those, like, Real Housewives fashions. You know, like she was along the way when he was nothing and feels very much a part of his success is because she has kept his shit together and she keeps the package together and keeps this glossy. Keeping up with the Joneses alive. And we have pickleball and we do this. And I think she's a good. I think she's a very good wife, and I think she's a very good mother. Do I think she's the most curious person? No. Do I think that she's well meaning? Yes. But do I think she doesn't leave her pocket 100%. And I think that, like, Jacqueline, she's really impressed with that thing, and she would love to be Jacqueline. And I think there is, like, why her? Why didn't. Why not me?

[Gia Tolentino]

Their dynamic too. Like, it made me think, you know, with the friends you've had for this long, you're both more secure with them, but you're also more insecure with them. Because the great thing is they know you so well. The dangerous thing is that they know you so well. And this really comes out with the Trump thing, right? And I was wondering, you know, like, the sort of a fracture, the thing that Kate does not want to appear. Has suddenly appeared when they have this conversation.

[Leslie Bibb]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

But then she also doesn't get nervous about. Like, she's very, like, defiant. Like, I think when she broaches it, she's not backing down. She's like, this is my truth. But she's very nervous about it.

[Gia Tolentino]

That's what I wanted to ask.

[Josh Bearman]

And she knows that it. Yeah, like, I think she knows, but I think if she comes in and apologizes for anything, that's a sign of weakness. And she's living in her truth, which you don't even know. Cause she says she's an independent. I think really what she's saying is, I'm my own person. I'm not. You know, even though those women who are working women, who aren't just moms I know, are judging me for just being a mom. You know, there's that subtle dig and that sort of thing. You know, I'm my own keeper. I don't. He doesn't sway me. I can have my own choices. I make my own choices. Just because he makes the money. You know, there's all this undercurrent underneath. But I think she's aware that. And she knows they're gonna talk shit about her.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right? That was my other question.

[Josh Bearman]

She knows. She knows. As soon as it happens, you know, it's. Can you still be so close with your friends if you have these differing opinions? Does it make you a bad person if you vote? Like, I think there's a lot of questions that he's. He's starting. You know, he's such a provocative writer, and he's such a confronting writer. He really puts it in your face and makes you feel uncomfortable. And I feel like that's what he's doing. He's making you think that, like, is this the hill that you go, well, I can't be friends with her anymore. So it's a very interesting quandary that you start to go, like, do I throw an entire friendship out because of this?

[Gia Tolentino]

It's interesting. Cause I don't think if it's someone you've known your whole life, you don't throw the friendship out because they voted for Trump or their husbands do. But it changes the friendship. And that's what shows up in the show. Like, it's just all these little revelations about who they are and how they've changed. But, okay, this is episode six. This is where the ladies are letting loose. And I loved watching your physicality in this episode. Cause, you know, there's this slow tightening up and by the end, you can read her mind. She's sitting by the pool and she's like, I am honestly ready to. Like, I wouldn't mind if my flight was one day earlier. Like, I want to be with my kids in my house with a blanket and never, ever speak to Vladiguet.

[Josh Bearman]

I made this choice too. Cause we were all dressed up and the last minute I went to Alex and I was like, I wanna be in pajamas. And she's like, what? And I was like, when people are.

[Gia Tolentino]

At my house and it's time for them to leave. Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

My partner Sam always goes to bed. He, like, starts. He just puts. He goes to bed. So I was like, I'm not that per. Cause that would be rude. I would think Kate would think that was rude. So I was like, a subtle, passive aggressive way is to change into your pajamas and try to be clean faced. And be clean faced, like you've washed. And I very quickly just made this choice that I can't stand Valentin. I can't stand him because he is a distraction to my friend group. And he is making this not about the three of us. Like, all of a sudden, we're like, chasing. You're never gonna see him again.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, right?

[Josh Bearman]

He's. I don't know.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, why am I talking to Vlad? We should be going deeper as best.

[Josh Bearman]

Friends, like, right now. And now you've proven this. Like, this guy has shown up with these two, like, Kate thinks very weird guys who. I.

[Gia Tolentino]

You can say they're weird. They're weird.

[Josh Bearman]

I know they're weird. Like, to her. So weird and, like, dodgy and like, I don't. She's not into it. And it's like, I just. Every time I started to slowly. Every time Valentin came to the table, I was like. Like, I wanted Kate to just be like, he's a thorn in my side because he's ruining my trip.

[Gia Tolentino]

The clench is a little harder.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything and, like, your smile is, like, imprinted. And it's just like a. The message is like, I'm subliminally looking at you saying, leave.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, the clocks. There's a countdown, honey.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, okay. I have a question about your partner, Sam Rockwell. About his surprise appearance and that monologue.

[Josh Bearman]

I know, it's so secretive. It's so crazy that we've kept this secret.

[Leslie Bibb]

And I got in my head, what I really wanted was to be one of these Asian girls getting fucked by me.

[Gia Tolentino]

And to feel that it's one of the highlights of the season. It's Unbelievable to watch. I wanted to ask you, how hard has it been to keep it under wraps?

[Josh Bearman]

It's crazy because we have friends in New York who are like, did you get to go visit?

[Gia Tolentino]

Right?

[Josh Bearman]

And I'm like, yeah, he came. He came to Bangkok. Like, we really. And then sometimes we've told, like, a couple of our friends, but, like, nobody knows.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

You know, and it wasn't supposed to be him. And it happened late just cause our schedule pushed and Sam's schedule pushed on the movie he was doing in South Africa, and it just aligned, and I just knew I really wanted him to do it. I remember when I read the monologue a long time ago, I was like, oh, this monologue needs a really amazing actor. Because it feels to me, if there were gonna be one scene that sort of talks about ownership of self, which is essentially like, wouldn't it have been a different trip if these women had just gone in and been like, this is who I am. And sort of unapologetically had said this and said, I love you, but this is who I am. I'm still here for you. I'm still this.

[Gia Tolentino]

But this is.

[Josh Bearman]

But so scared because the world has gotten so polarized that, like, you're like, if I really say that, will people still love me? And I think that's such a deep fear. But that monologue, when I read it, I was like, oh, this is the truth of this.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right? Stated plainly.

[Josh Bearman]

Stated plainly, unapologetically. I just knew when I read that, I was like, oh, somebody's got. This has gotta be a great, great actor. And then Mike and Dave were like, we want Sam to do it. And I was like, listen, I can't tell you that guy makes. He makes his decisions. You know, that jet plane's gonna fly whatever way it's gonna fly, so don't get mad at me if he says no.

[Leslie Bibb]

So.

[Josh Bearman]

And they were like, no, no, no, no, no. I was like, great. But Sam was just. Because he likes a lot of prep time, was sort of on the fence about it. He was like, yes and no and yes and no. And I remember saying. I was like, I think you'll regret not doing this because I think that monologue is special and it needs you completely.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's so good, Leslie, thank you so much. I'm so glad to get to talk to you.

[Josh Bearman]

Thank you so much.

[Gia Tolentino]

Bye.

[Josh Bearman]

Okay, bye. Bye.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, that was lovely. Thank you to Leslie Bibb and Patrick Schwarzenegger for coming on the show. And thank you to you all for listening.

[Josh Bearman]

It's.

[Leslie Bibb]

The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Bierman. Natalia Winkelman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Puchilo and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewan Lai Trimuin at Campside Media. Our executive producer is Josh Dean. For the HBO Podcast team, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen Zarokac and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

[Gia Tolentino]

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