Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries

Summary

The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Release Date: March 31, 2025

---

Introduction

In Episode 7 of The White Lotus Official Podcast, hosts Jia Tolentino and Josh Bearman delve deep into the intricacies of the HBO Original Series' seventh episode, “Killer Instincts.” Joined by actor Jon Gries, the trio explores the episode's dark themes, character developments, and overarching narratives that define Season 3 of The White Lotus.

---

Episode Breakdown: “Killer Instincts”

“Killer Instincts,” written and directed by Mike White, presents a darker turn in the series, focusing on the internal and external conflicts faced by the characters. The hosts highlight the episode's exploration of violence, identity, and midlife crises.

Themes and Motifs

• Violence and Spirituality: The episode opens with a slow-motion fight sequence intertwined with a monk's voiceover discussing the spiritual harm of violence (03:15). This juxtaposition sets the tone for the episode, emphasizing that violence is an inherent part of human nature.

  Josh Bearman (03:15): "Violence does spiritual harm to victim and to perpetrator."

• Midlife Crisis and Identity: The characters grapple with their sense of self, facing tests that force them to confront their true identities. The dinner scene epitomizes this struggle as characters shed their facades, revealing deep-seated grievances.

  Gia Tolentino (02:48): "Everyone, almost everyone, has kind of like a test, like a gauntlet that they are set."

Key Scenes and Discussions

• Dinner Confrontation: Jia and Josh dissect the intense dinner scene where characters begin to reveal their true feelings, symbolizing the removal of masks and the unveiling of genuine selves.

  Gia Tolentino (04:00): "They are mirrors of each other."

• Fabian’s Ballad: The hotel manager, Fabian, takes the spotlight with his nostalgic song about missing Germany, showcasing his personal struggle and desire for change amidst the chaos surrounding him.

  Gia Tolentino (06:14): "He's pursuing it and it doesn't matter to anyone else."

• Laurie’s Transactional Encounter: Laurie’s interaction with Alexei highlights the superficiality of her quest for authenticity, culminating in a failed transactional relationship that underscores her internal turmoil.

  John Grice (07:17): "I'm ready. I'm here for, I will take your message."

• Gary and Greg’s Intrigue: The hosts and Jon Gries discuss the enigmatic character of Gary, exploring his potential role in orchestrating Tanya’s demise and his psychopathic traits.

  Josh Bearman (31:37): "Psychopath, right?"

---

Character Insights

Saxon’s Identity Quest

Saxon’s journey is a focal point in this episode. His conversation with his father reveals his lack of identity, leading him to seek meaning through his interactions with Chelsea.

John Grice (10:34): "I could be someone else. There could be more to me than this."

Rick and Frank’s Struggles

The dynamic between Rick and Frank showcases their attempts to navigate personal and professional challenges. Their confrontation with authority figures and internal conflicts highlights themes of powerlessness and redemption.

Gia Tolentino (25:50): "He celebrates. Yeah, he turns the tables."

Gary’s Complex Persona

Gary, portrayed by Jon Gries, is dissected as a potentially diabolical character with a penchant for manipulation and control. His interactions suggest a depth beyond mere antagonism, hinting at orchestrated chaos within the series' narrative.

Josh Bearman (37:50): "He doesn't fall in love. He doesn't have that capability."

---

Interview Highlights with Jon Gries

Jon Gries provides an in-depth look into his character, Gary, revealing the layers that make him both captivating and sinister.

• Character Evolution: Gries discusses how his perception of Gary shifted from a seemingly carefree individual to a calculated orchestrator of events.

  Jon Gries (34:12): "Psychopath, right?"

• Motivations and Backstory: He elaborates on Gary’s background, hinting at connections with the Bureau of Land Management and his strategic manipulations to maintain control.

  Josh Bearman (40:08): "If you are an opportunistic person."

• On-Set Dynamics: Gries shares his experiences working alongside cast members, emphasizing the collaborative effort in portraying complex relationships and power dynamics.

  Josh Bearman (43:15): "She's a good partner. She's a good partner."

---

Themes of Hope vs. Pain

A recurring theme in “Killer Instincts” is the battle between hope and pain. Characters are depicted as striving for transformation and clarity amidst their internal and external struggles.

Gia Tolentino (27:25): "It’s like hope seems kind of to be winning here, right?"

The hosts posit that this internal conflict serves as the season’s overarching test, determining whether characters can embrace authenticity or remain trapped behind their masks.

---

Conclusion and Reflections

Episode 7 of The White Lotus intensifies the series' exploration of human frailties, power dynamics, and the perpetual quest for identity. Through rich dialogue and complex character interactions, the episode underscores the precarious balance between maintaining facades and embracing genuine self-awareness.

John Grice (30:48): "Are you gonna wear the mask or not? Like you're gonna go to the grave with your mask on."

As the hosts wrap up their analysis, they express anticipation for future developments, particularly the evolving relationships and unresolved mysteries surrounding characters like Gary and Belinda.

---

Final Thoughts

“Killer Instincts” serves as a pivotal episode in Season 3, pushing characters to their limits and setting the stage for profound transformations. Jia Tolentino, Josh Bearman, and Jon Gries provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the episode’s nuanced themes and character arcs, enhancing the viewing experience for both avid fans and newcomers alike.

---

Note: This summary excludes advertisements, introductory remarks, and concluding segments not related to the episode's content.

Transcript

[Gia Tolentino]

The official White Lotus Podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch. Hey, White Lotus fans. Dream vacations call for dream wardrobes, minus the drama. Enter Abercrombie and Fitch. The long weekend collection offers effortless, elevated style, from mila dresses that transition seamlessly from day to night to classic skirts, skorts, and crisp linen shirts. New pieces drop weekly to keep your packing fresh. Pack your bags. Your wardrobe upgrade starts with Abercrombie and Fitch.

[Josh Bearman]

Big time movie director, huh? Well, what have you directed, may I ask?

[John Grice]

What haven't I directed?

[Josh Bearman]

You know what I mean. Mostly action films. The Enforcer, the Executor, the Notary. That was a trilogy.

[Gia Tolentino]

Hello, and welcome to the White Lotus Official Podcast, companion to season three. Hi, I'm Gia Tolentino.

[John Grice]

And I'm Josh Bearman.

[Gia Tolentino]

And later in this episode, we'll be talking to Jon Grice. My question for you, Josh, is in Sam Rockwell's imaginary film trilogy, which we hear about, it's the. Hold on. It's the. Help me.

[John Grice]

The Enforcer.

[Gia Tolentino]

The Enforcer.

[John Grice]

And then the executor, he says it.

[Gia Tolentino]

The Executor. But I was confused because I thought he was gonna say executioner. Right, but if it's like a will, aren't you, like, the execut?

[John Grice]

Right. Well, then when it gets into the notary, we're like, maybe it was an executor.

[Gia Tolentino]

It was an executor, actually.

[John Grice]

Yeah. The sequel is the executor of the will of whoever was enforced.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yes. And then the notary has to come and sign it.

[John Grice]

Has to come and make sure.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[John Grice]

I feel like in the plot of the notary, I'm assuming that what happens is the notary's giant, big physical book of signatures gets stolen.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh. Oh.

[John Grice]

And then Jason Statham has to come and get it back.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

You know, it's a briefcase thing for me. Like, it's like he folds it up in the briefcase, and then he's, like, getting on and someone snatches it. Someone snatches it.

[John Grice]

It's identical. Briefcase. It's a mix. Or is it?

[Gia Tolentino]

Exactly. Okay, before we get into the notarized revenge plot, near murder we witnessed, we should say we're talking about episode seven. The title is Killer Instincts, and it was written and directed by Mike White. So this is a dark episode. Mm, it's dark.

[John Grice]

Well, it's all coming to the surface.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Everyone, almost everyone, has kind of like a test, like a gauntlet that they are set. And it's like, what choice will you make? And not all of them have chosen.

[John Grice]

And also the kind of visual light motif that starts at the beginning and is running through the whole thing is the fight. You see the slow motion sequence of like some kind of prayer ritual at the beginning of the fight.

[Josh Bearman]

Violence does spiritual harm to victim and to perpetrator.

[John Grice]

So it's transitioned from a lot of the rest of the season is the monkeys in the forest, which is either both monkey mind and also the threat of kind of. They're burying their fangs sometimes, but now here's like humans fighting and personal violence and then the voiceover of the monk about violence. And so then you kind of know that that's what this is gonna be about.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Everyone's in this really weird flux. It really like. Yeah. I kept watching throughout the episode, I was like, everyone is trying to see if they're gonna pass some sort of test. It feels like it really all comes to the surface with the ladies the most. This is where they're at dinner just like furiously looking at the menu. They're kind of being like, I'm fucking sick of Thai food. Like, you can feel they're like, when's this bottle of rose gon. We can stop just avoiding eye contact with each other.

[John Grice]

And Laurie sort of says what she's finally thinking. And then they all start trading kind of their real beliefs about each other. So the masks have all come down now, right? So the mask that was being worn when they were in the first episode at dinner and talking about how they all had been one person. And it's a mirror. They're mirrors of each other.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's a victory tour. Our lives fucking rock.

[Josh Bearman]

Ye victory tour.

[John Grice]

Our lives rock. Now the mask is down and the real person is there. And those three real people actually have these long grievances with each other.

[Gia Tolentino]

I mean, you know, when you know someone long enough, you do start to see certain patterns.

[Josh Bearman]

Okay, and what is that pattern, Kate?

[Gia Tolentino]

And they're all correct. Like, they're all accurate. Like, the reads are accurate. They say to Laurie, like, the thing that makes you disappointed changes, but you're always disappointed. And it's like. That's right.

[John Grice]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

And then she says, kate, you're a fake bitch.

[John Grice]

Right? Whatever makes sense. Right? You're pretending your life is great and you're selfish and selfish in vain.

[Gia Tolentino]

And it's like, yeah, it's all correct.

[John Grice]

Yeah. There's a funny moment in the three way finger pointing at the dinner where Laurie kind of throws Jacqueline under the bus by reminding or actually revealing the news to Kate that Jacqueline and her Husband were flirting at her wedding.

[Josh Bearman]

Was it a big deal when she.

[John Grice]

Did the same thing with Dave?

[Josh Bearman]

With Dave at my wedding.

[John Grice]

She was all over Dave.

[Gia Tolentino]

I'm sure you remember.

[Josh Bearman]

I was not.

[Gia Tolentino]

And that was like 15 years ago.

[John Grice]

And then Kate just like, what did that happen?

[Gia Tolentino]

And Kate's like, I suppressed that. Excuse me.

[John Grice]

Yeah, exactly. What are you talking about?

[Gia Tolentino]

That's not. We suppressed that together. I did like the line of dialogue where Jacqueline tells Laurie, you always choose the short stick. And then you think you got the short stick.

[John Grice]

Oh, right. Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

And that was.

[John Grice]

And you think you're the victim.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And that was kind of brutal.

[John Grice]

She's saying it in a cruel way, but it's the kind of thing that the monk would also say.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right?

[John Grice]

Like, you chose the path. You took those steps. Why did you do that? What does that mean?

[Gia Tolentino]

But do you think Jacqueline meant. It was like you chose the thing that was gonna be hard. You know, like you chose the thing that was not gonna be easy. You're having to fight your way up at this firm. You know, presumably this relationship with this man was also not easy. And then you're upset, and you're upset about it. About it not being easy.

[John Grice]

Right, Exactly.

[Gia Tolentino]

That's good. That's devastating.

[John Grice]

Right? She's like, if you made those choices, then accept them and try not. Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

You can't feel self righteous about choosing the path. That's hard work. And then feel like a victim for having had to work for your shit.

[John Grice]

Right. She's like, quit your yapping about it. The monk would be like, just try not to suffer if that's the choice you've made and accept it or whatever.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[John Grice]

And then, of course, they're sitting there and Fabian, the hotel manager, has decided that this is his big night to shine. And he sits down and sings a ballad of his own devising about missing cold Germany. Exactly. Heimweh nostalgia for the homeland. How home may be cold and dirty.

[Josh Bearman]

But still it is home.

[Gia Tolentino]

He also, you know, he didn't like his life and he fucking changed it. He was like, I'm gonna get on stage and no one cares. Cause they're all busy being like, I've hated you for 30 years.

[John Grice]

That's right. That's a good point. Fabian so far, is the actual hero of the story.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[John Grice]

He's the one who's making a change.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's pursuing it and it doesn't matter to anyone else.

[John Grice]

But it's interesting. So then Laurie runs off to go to the fight. She's like, ah, fuck this. And then winds up in a tryst with Alexei.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's like, I take cash app.

[John Grice]

Yeah, exactly. And then, no, it turns out to be transactional, where she's getting the authentic experience of like, okay, fine, I'm going to run to the Muay Thai fight and go home with this rando. And then he's like, you take cash app.

[Gia Tolentino]

Sell Venmo PayPal Cash app.

[John Grice]

I just need only $10,000. She's like, oh, no, it has to flee out the window.

[Gia Tolentino]

I know. And his angry, hot girlfriend is there trying to slap fight everyone.

[John Grice]

But maybe that is the authentic experience she had. The full authentic experience of thinking you're having an authentic experience. Traveling.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. You really want to be at loose ends. Time to be at.

[John Grice]

Yeah, right, right. Yeah, exactly.

[Gia Tolentino]

Time to be crazy. Oh, but so the thing that happens with Alexi, I mean, that we all know was coming, but that Lori didn't know was coming, was that the jewelry that was heisted is coming.

[John Grice]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Gia Tolentino]

But here's my thing. Alexi, you got 10 grand right there. Sell the damn snake choker.

[John Grice]

Right? Who knows? Also, that jewelry doesn't seem that expensive.

[Gia Tolentino]

I know, I know. But, like, I was like, lori should have taken it back. That's my quibble there. It's like, Lori, put it in your bag. Put it in your dang bag. I liked when her drawstring pants were falling off her ass.

[John Grice]

I know. That was a good hustle at the door. That was a good other woman hustle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

There's, like, perfect pants for that as well. Like, there's no you, really. It's a really PJ style Thailand pant, you know?

[John Grice]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So then there's a party over at Gary's.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[John Grice]

He's invited Belinda and her son Zion.

[Gia Tolentino]

Chloe is dressed like a majorette, like a Taylor Swift heiress to our costume. I love the moment where, like, Parker Posey's got her sort of elaborate silk scarf on and the statement necklace, and she's like, the boat people. We're gonna go talk to the boat people.

[John Grice]

I know, I know. She's like sort of a new Tanya.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Oh, she's a new Dino. Yeah, for sure.

[John Grice]

Yeah. Where she is her kind of, like, drug doubt kind of daffiness is the purposeful, but kind of accidental to the story. Comic relief.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. She's fun at this party. She's like, well, I guess it's boat people. You know, Everything's going as shit. My daughter's a Buddhist.

[John Grice]

I know. She's like, I'm praying that Jesus can save her from the Buddhist.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And she's really, you know, at the party, she's like. She thinks that girl is being sex trafficked. And she's like, come to North Carolina.

[John Grice]

She's trying to help out this woman.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's scared of him.

[John Grice]

Yeah. But then also at the party, there is Saxon, Chelsea and Chloe. First, Saxon is talking to his dad and basically says, like, what's going on? Cause if your life is falling apart, that means mine is. Cause I have no identity. I've just patterned myself after you.

[Gia Tolentino]

So I put all my eggs in your basket.

[John Grice]

Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. But I loved also the look in Jason Isaac's. You know, he's having the conversation. He's like, everything's good. Everything's fine. And it's like his eyes are in the afterlife. You know, like, his eyes are fully in eternal return. Like, he's thinking he's no longer there.

[John Grice]

Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

And he's at peace with it. And I found that. It's a good scene.

[John Grice]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's a good interchange.

[John Grice]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

In fact, I don't have anything else but this.

[John Grice]

I don't have any interests. I don't have any hobbies.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay.

[Josh Bearman]

If I'm not a success, then I'm nothing.

[John Grice]

Saxon goes even further and he says, I have no identity. Basically, I am. And he's kind of saying he's an empty vessel. And so as the party's going on, he then, having revealed this to his father, is kind of wandering around with that new awareness.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right.

[John Grice]

He says what Walton Goggins says to that they're both these empty vessels for different reasons. Like, Walton feels like his cup could never be filled. And Saxon is like, I've chosen to have no identity, basically. So then you're like, aha. What is he gonna be filled with? Like, what is gonna happen? And he goes to the party and he sits down with Chelsea and asks her, you know, why are you even with this old dude anyhow, as a rich old guy? And she explains, and quite meaningfully, is like, he has this sadness.

[Josh Bearman]

It really touches me.

[Gia Tolentino]

I wanna heal him. It's like we're in this yin and.

[Josh Bearman]

Yang battle, and I'm hope, and Rick is painful, and eventually one of us will win.

[John Grice]

Which is also kind of a big theme of the whole show.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right, Right. Well, but it's also because he wants to have sex with her. And she has said outright, I won't fuck you because you have no soul. Yeah, but I kind of. I mean, I like their dynamic in this episode. I Like, how it feels. I like how he is still reeling from the revelation of his incestuous threesome. And, I mean, like, they're sitting. It's like a classic. The party's going on. You're kind of join someone on a pool chair, and you're like, what the hell are we doing here? You know? And he's giving off this thing in this encounter where he's, like. He's almost ready for something to be revealed to him. Right. He, like, sees in her the possibility of some lesson that he's become vaguely aware because of the Jason Isaac storyline, that he needs some sort of lesson. He needs something to his life other than, like, I'm gonna do whatever will allow me to use people for their own and my pleasure. Like, he's on the cusp of realizing that something needs to change. He understands that Chelsea perhaps holds some sort of insight or tool, whether it is directly sexual through an encounter with her body, or if it's just actually whatever she thinks in her mind. They are sitting on these pool chairs, and he's about to receive this wisdom. And then she explains it's a battle between hope and pain. And he's just like, ugh, you're never gonna fuck me. And the window kind of closes. It opens again later in the episode, but it's like he's. In this episode. He's almost realizing he needs something, and then he can't tolerate what that would actually mean. He's following her around, being like, am I gonna learn something? Do I actually want to? But he kind of doesn't.

[John Grice]

And then also, by the way, while they're sitting there, he's watching from afar and his dad is over there, like, all sloppy drunk in his kind of spiral, and he's seeing that there's something wrong there. And that's also, I think, pushing him internally to be like, am I open to the message of this woman here who I completely dismissed?

[Gia Tolentino]

But there's something beyond the immediate surface. Is there?

[John Grice]

Right. Yeah, exactly. He's, like, finally ready to dig a little bit. Well, Chloe shows up and invites him into their sexual.

[Josh Bearman]

He wouldn't even touch you.

[Gia Tolentino]

He just wants to creep up on us. And at some point, I'll leave you and I'll go to Gary, and it.

[Josh Bearman]

Would be like he's winning his mother back from his father.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Like a little boy's dream. So Saxon gets one offer for one kind of identity for the night, which is Chloe's like, well, turns out I'm gonna explain for two minutes. Gary's Elaborate parental cuck fantasy.

[John Grice]

Yeah, I liked the Oedipal personal psychological variant on being cuck all day. I was like, that was an interesting.

[Gia Tolentino]

Kind of to be cucked by his dad from his mom. The one thing I don't buy here is that Saxon wouldn't have immediately understood what Chloe was asking him to be like, I've seen 1,000 videos in this category before. You know what I mean?

[John Grice]

He's just so vanilla that he has never really thought about, no, it's not possible. And it's exposure to porn.

[Gia Tolentino]

I did think when he was like, you have a threesomes with two girls. And I was like, maybe you haven't actually. Like, he's kind of giving, maybe he hasn't, and just says he has. And there's kind of a symmetry to the fact that Saxon and Lachlan both fucked Chloe with each other the episode before. And now they are lost and confused, Saxon more aggressively so. But Lachlan is no longer in the sort of, like, morning after reflexive triumphalism that he was last time we saw him. And they are both looking two girls, you know, Chelsea and Piper, respectively, to be like, okay, teach me your belief system. I'll do it. I can't fuck my brother anymore.

[John Grice]

Right. The radio's tuned. We're ready to receive the transmission.

[Gia Tolentino]

There's kind of a flowers in the attic moment with Lachlan and Piper. You know, like they're on the bed and they're having this sort of. And he's like, I want to be here with you.

[John Grice]

I know. Actually, there's like. I know. That was like. It's like almost like a candlelit scene.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's in her little white nightgown in.

[John Grice]

Her, like, cap sleeve, kind of like prairie dress again. She looks like Kelly McGillis in Witness when we were in the barn together. And. Yeah. And then he's like, what if I just stayed here with you? And then she freaks out and leaves.

[Gia Tolentino]

But she takes her hand off of his leg and is like, I'm going back to my room.

[John Grice]

She's like, maybe I've pushed this too far. What do you think is her fear there? Why does she recoil?

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, she wanted to go. She wanted to leave her family. She wanted to be utterly decontextualized and discover who she is outside of Lachlan. And now she's like, get your own damn identity, Lachlan. You know, go make your college choice. Don't come here with me.

[John Grice]

Right, right. It's interesting that, like, Saxon is so certain of who he is right and is telling Lachlan, you could be looked just like me, basically. And then Saxon is even more destabilized now and is seeking his identity, which we see when he and Chelsea are walking home and they go back to her room and they're sitting on the bed and it's a quiet scene, but then I didn't even quite catch it until almost it was over. That basically he says, I'm ready. I'm now willing. Like what? What Rick can't do, which is like receive her message. Now Saxon is sitting there saying, like, I'm ready, I'm here for, I will take your message. And then she freaks out because she's like, uh, oh, this could go the wrong way.

[Josh Bearman]

Yes.

[Gia Tolentino]

So you get the idea. Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

What, that's it. You can't become soulful in 10 minutes.

[Gia Tolentino]

Takes time. Well, he does. It's like his posture when he's like, he's following behind her, he's kind of, his shoulders are a little down. He says something that he probably has never said before, which is like, I could be someone else. There could be more to me than this. He sees a sort of forking and he gets cross legged on the bed and he's trying to receive what it is to meditate, but then he's like, but are we gonna fuck? And Chelsea's like, oh no, are we gonna fuck? And then she panics and she's like, I kind of want to. And she throws all these books at him and hides in the corner. And then he takes the message and leaves. Like, he doesn't press it, but they almost fuck, right?

[John Grice]

He's like, okay, I. I am now your pupil teacher and give me your lesson. He's like, maybe if it entails sex, great, but also I'll take the books.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. You know, ostensibly the real reason that the party was thrown is that Greg can get Belinda in a room and she's clutching her little purse, she's doing, she's got her hands on her little purse in her lap and he offers her like a quite insulting $100,000 to report him for murder to all of the police.

[John Grice]

Yeah, it seems like just from a pure negotiating position, he made an error.

[Gia Tolentino]

What do you mean?

[John Grice]

Well, because.

[Gia Tolentino]

Setting it too low. Yeah, no, I think that's what you do. It's like Delta offering those people $30,000 for the flight landing upside down.

[John Grice]

He's like, maybe I can get by basically scot free here.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's sending a signal and it's Belinda's job to take that and be like, I need 10, 5 million. Actually, no. Yeah, way more than 10x on that.

[John Grice]

But she's taking a moral position. When she bolts from the party, she's saying no. So she's also saying, I'm gonna resist this. It's.

[Gia Tolentino]

Would you take the money? I'd honestly, I mean, I'd ask for more, but I'd frankly take the money and then I'd still report him. And then what is he gonna do?

[John Grice]

Right? That's a good point. Yeah, exactly right. She's holding the cards.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, have you ever set up an anonymous Gmail, Belinda? Like, pretty easy. Come on.

[John Grice]

Right? I wonder, is it like Cash App or Venmo?

[Gia Tolentino]

I know Alexi's like, Alexi steps in and he's like, we take Cash App, we take Venmo. I have a finder's fee, a mere $10,000 for the rep of my mom or whatever. And then Mook and Gaiok, they go on their date. It goes badly because Mook is like, I want you to be more violent because that's how you advance in this world. And they go to the, the Muay Thai fight. And she's like, see, it's natural. This staged fight that people are paying for. This is actually so natural.

[John Grice]

What's interesting, because the whole episode is set up with the monk saying violence exists in all of us, right? And that's like sort of the overture of the episode, is that VO over Walton Goggins. And then it's kind of playing through and then it's reinforced at the fight, which of course is this display of violence. And then it was kind of really sad on that date, right before they get to the fight, when she's like, oh, I thought you were more ambitious when he's saying, like, basically I'm a pacifist and I don't want to hurt people. And she's like, oh, then maybe we're.

[Gia Tolentino]

Not meant to be a beta cuck that wants to watch while your mom fucks your dad or something, steals your mom.

[John Grice]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

And then, but at the fight, like, I mean, it kind of seeds like we are supposed to think that something is gonna happen when he recognizes, you know, in kind of a somewhat heavy handed flashback, that, oh, these Russian guys with that girl from the hotel, they are the ones that punched me and robbed me.

[John Grice]

Right?

[Gia Tolentino]

And so you're supposed to think, perhaps next episode he'll make a grand gesture. He's got the gun back, you know, which Jason Isaacs realizes to his dismay now he's fantasizing about killing his son because his son has also said, I have nothing but what you gave. And he's like, oh, no. Gotta put these people out of their misery, right? But, you know, in this incredible prop magician's cabinet, this filing cabinet, 45 compartments, none of which contain a gun, but guy talks about it.

[John Grice]

I know. Well, the cabinet also is a little bit like a metaphor for, you know, depending on where the gun is, like, how's it gonna get used, right? There's like some motivation for the gun to get used in all these different ways with each of the characters.

[Gia Tolentino]

I feel like this episode, I mean, the real here's a test, and how are you gonna pass? It happens with both Rick and Frank. Like, unexpectedly with Frank, I think, where, you know, we're 45 seconds into this encounter at Sritala's house, and he's like, I'll take a whiskey, right?

[John Grice]

I know.

[Gia Tolentino]

And I'm like, no, he hasn't.

[John Grice]

Yeah, I know.

[Gia Tolentino]

God, don't do it for this.

[John Grice]

He's thrown off by the fact that they somehow have not prepped their cover story at all. And they get in there and then she's like, what movies have you seen of mine and what movies have I made? I don't know, action movies.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's good scripted improv.

[John Grice]

What kind of movie are you making here?

[Josh Bearman]

You know what? It's a fun caper, like a thriller. It's got everything. Killings, double crossings, action and all the stuff that people like.

[John Grice]

It's funny, but I was thinking, these two guys are on this, like, deception operation to sneak into one of the richest men in Thailand's house and.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, this is like a Jason Bourne movie. You should have thought about what they should have had.

[John Grice]

Let's get an IMDb for you, an exit strategy. They should have had this whole thing prepped out. Like, what's even. What are we doing here?

[Gia Tolentino]

But I think that Rick doesn't know what he's doing. Right? Like, I think that up until. I mean, it's very confusing, this confrontation. It's. It's a strange one. Rick doesn't know what's gonna happen here. And he has brought that spirit to Frank as the director who has no idea what his name. They don't remember what each other's names are. They haven't looked at Sri Ta La's IMDb.

[John Grice]

Yeah, I do. Yeah. I like how I mean Frank, the minute he takes a sip of whiskey, is restored to his charming self. He's got a sparkle in his eye and a wink and a smile.

[Gia Tolentino]

They're watching the VHS and he's like, it's giving Pippin.

[John Grice]

Yeah. It's like Peter Pan meets MC Hammer and some Pippin. And meanwhile, now Rick and Jim have gone off into the study to kind of just chat about business, but which is cover for Rick trying to figure out, like, do I need to kill my lifelong sort of nemesis in my mind?

[Gia Tolentino]

And Jim, the legendary Scott Glenn.

[Josh Bearman]

Seems you've had quite a life.

[Gia Tolentino]

Tyler has been good to me. We were just going, it's what Apocalypse now. You were saying, what else?

[John Grice]

What do we got Then he's an urban cowboy.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, my God. His outfit in urban cowboy.

[John Grice]

Yeah. In a crop top mesh outfit.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Giving Bushwick. Yeah. Giving Pratt.

[John Grice]

Pratt Student with a cowboy hat. And he's in Signs of Limbs. He's in A Million Things. He's all over the place. He's in the Leftovers. And he's in Bad Monkey. He's the dad in Bad Monkey also. Now he's playing the sinister figure, but he's also so kind of frail.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's old, he's real. He's got a cane. But he knows something is wrong almost immediately. Like, he knows. Once Rick calls Frank Frank, he knows there's a look in his eye and he's like, something is up here. But he engages Rick with the. He's like, okay, let's take it to the den. He knows something's up, but he's used to having enough power in his whole life. Then he's like, fine, let's see what this is fucking about.

[John Grice]

It is a strange encounter because is some of the air being taken out of the balloon by virtue of the fact that the BET noir, the big kind of bad guy in Rick's mind is actually so weak and frail and doesn't have any menace because obviously he backs off because he's ultimately also not a killer. The episode's called Killer Instinct. It starts with this overture about violence. Rick realizes in the moment he's not a killer. He pulls out his gun, but that's.

[Gia Tolentino]

He can't even hit him.

[John Grice]

He can't even hit him. And that's because he's frail. But so I was wondering if there was some menace and he knew and in fact he encountered part of what he expected and still walked away. Would that be sort of a more complex test that he passed?

[Gia Tolentino]

But it's. I mean, I think to me what it is, it's like you confronted reality as it is, right? You confronted the fact that this person was a different person then someone that was capable of murdering in cold blood. Now, he's probably still capable. Scott Glenn is still capable of murdering cold blood, but he's old. He's frail now. And you have power over him like he had ultimate power over you of for 50 years. Now you functionally and completely physically, existentially, like, this man is at the end of his life. You still have Chelsea waiting for you back home, not fucking Patrick Schwarzenegger. And he's sort of like, okay. I mean, the test, so to speak, is different because of the actual reality that confronts him in the moment. It's not, can I kill this man? Do I have the strength to kill this man? But it's like, do I have the existential wherewithal to realize I don't need to? And in that way, he does. He does. And then they fucking go off. Oh, my God.

[John Grice]

Right? He celebrates. Yeah, he turns the tables. That's a good point. It's like this guy had power over him, and suddenly now he has the power. And perhaps that's enough to just completely dispel the illusion.

[Gia Tolentino]

And then I'm legitimately upset. For Frank, sobriety is a really important thing.

[John Grice]

I know. I know I was hard to win. I know it's gonna be a tough fight back. And then they go off and party, and he's immediately already got like, oh.

[Gia Tolentino]

My God, coke and hookers. And then he's got a crack pipe, meth or whatever.

[John Grice]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

Cr. Whatever he's doing, right?

[John Grice]

And he's like, let's go big. It's Bangkok one night. And then eventually, of course, they take it to the hotel room, and Rick is just sitting on the couch, kind of observing. He's not really engaging in the way. Like, Frank is like, okay, this is my. I'm back in my. In my old house.

[Gia Tolentino]

My wheelhouse.

[John Grice]

Yeah, exactly. And Walton Rick just is kind of sitting there with a smile on his face, right? He's got this, like, slight, beatific smile where like.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. He's like, actually, I'm not gonna take you up. Three topless girls offering me the coke straw or whatever. He's like, I'm actually okay. And I'm like, okay, Rick and Chelsea, are we gonna make it?

[John Grice]

We're still pulling for them.

[Gia Tolentino]

We're gonna make it.

[John Grice]

I know they're both. They just need to be reunited.

[Gia Tolentino]

I also think they could have done whatever this night and made it back, you know? Like, I really believe in them.

[John Grice]

Oh, yeah. Well, they're soulmates.

[Gia Tolentino]

They're soulmates.

[John Grice]

And she's gonna follow him to the next life and heal him there if she has to.

[Gia Tolentino]

And I kind of wanted Chelsea to have a selfish. I mean, I kind of wanted her to have a little bit of a selfish moment, you know, But I like that they didn't. I like that, you know, they still kind of have a bit of a pure thing, the battle of hope and pain. Like, it's like hope seems kind of to be winning here, right?

[John Grice]

That's true. She has, like, now, like, their reunion is a potential pure one. But I'm with you. I kind of wanted her and Saxon because also, that's like this separate, tiny, weird little essentially rom com, right? If you just isolate that story, it's like he's the devilish cat and she's the plucky heroine, and she wants nothing to do with him. And then they realize they're enemies to lovers. Enemies to lovers. And then they have this moment where she could actually realize the full potential that she's not able to with Rick. And then perhaps by so doing, that elevates her power even more. And then she brings that back to Rick.

[Gia Tolentino]

That's exactly what I'm thinking. That's exactly what I'm thinking. And what, in her position, I probably would have done. I feel like this whole season there's been this thing going on with age where, you know, I think maybe rightfully, all the characters are a little disgusted by the old white dudes that are in Thailand, you know, with, like, hot girlfriends. And, you know, there were the women. The women are self conscious of their age, and they're, you know, through the whole, like, competitive dynamic, like something that hits harder in the way they fight at the beginning of the episode is like, they are set in their lives now. Like, they are. They're not old, but they are too old to choose a radically different value set and have it reset their life. Like, they're entrenched. They have children, they have careers, they've made their choices, they have divorces, they have marriages. Like, they can't. Like, there's this kind of fear of finality in them. They're fearing that the narratives that have been in play for the last 30 years are gonna be the narratives for the rest of their lives. They're seeing that it probably is true and realizing that about each other, but refusing to recognize it about themselves.

[John Grice]

Well, I mean, the women are all at sort of like midlife crisis age. And so in some, it's like a classic setup. I mean, I feel like it is most and beautifully demonstrated with an incredible flair when they wind up at the pool, which is full of the old people, and they're like, this is disgusting. This is the future. It's like the old lady in the bathtub and the Shining, you know, that's like, this is the terrible future that awaits. And so they recoil from that and go back into the self preservation mode, which I hadn't really thought about this. That their encounter with that kind of like immutable future puts their guard back up with each other.

[Gia Tolentino]

And I think there's also something with every character where it's sort of like, are you going to go into the rest of your life kind of honest or are you not? You know, like there is this kind of hope embedded within each of them that they can just. That they can work it out. They can work out something. And, like, they all kind of want to leave here and be like, okay, I'm going to straightforwardly live the rest of my life kind of in clarity and peace. And they're all fighting up against whatever barrier it is to actually doing that.

[John Grice]

Right. I mean, in midlife crisis. Right. It's a massive challenge and destabilizing and people kind of like sometimes don't recover. But it's also a chance for transformation and you can sort of like reset your entire sense of yourself. And that's kind of the opportunity that's being put in front of many of the characters here. Right, right. And that's the bigger test in this episode. There were like a lot of little tests. There's like these more moral, ethical tests, but then there's like sort of a bigger test.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right.

[John Grice]

It's where am I going?

[Gia Tolentino]

Can you go into the rest of your life not hiding something?

[John Grice]

Are you gonna wear the mask or not? Like you're gonna go to the grave with your mask on.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And they're all wondering that.

[John Grice]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

And we'll see. And now we'll be talking to Gary, Greg, John Grice.

[John Grice]

All right, well, welcome, John Grice, to the season three companion podcast to White Lotus.

[Josh Bearman]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Gia Tolentino]

I mean, I just really have to immediately ask. We need to just clear the air, cloud the air and know. Did Greg Gary kill Tanya? Did he orchestrate the killing of Tanya? Are we gonna be working from that premise or not as we speak?

[Josh Bearman]

Well, okay, so I'm glad you clarified with orchestrate. I would say in a court of law, there would never be anywhere near a guilty verdict, considering he was thousands of miles away.

[Gia Tolentino]

I've thought about this.

[Josh Bearman]

Well, yeah, of course. You have to. And then you think about you know, was it for hire? No, I. You know, it's interesting because when I did season two, I don't know if I should reveal this, but I was operating under the premise that I orchestrated for something to happen. Obviously, the Italian stud gentleman who was offered into the circle to satisfy Tanya, I think could have been my doing. You know, let's get her in a compromising situation. And then it just got. It got taken too far. You know, that was how I was looking at it. Like. Well, did I really, you know, think to offer. No, I thought to really make it so that I had a pretty good wedge for negotiating. But I think that as I got to Thailand and I was really kind of going over my old notes because I do write a pretty extensive history, and of course, obviously, it's augmented each time I get a new season. I mean, I. I feel so blessed to be able to say that I'm not. I'm. I'm like the guy saying, yeah, well, I'm. You know, the next season came. I mean, for me to be there is just. Is a miracle, you know, But I just. Things weren't. Weren't quite gelling for me, weren't quite working that I. I finally sought Mike out, and we started to have a conversation. He goes, well, you know who he is. You know, the guy you're playing him. And I was like, yeah, I do. But I'm surprised by certain things, you know, he goes, you got it. You know, you. You know who he is. And then finally, I got up really early one morning and I was walking around, and sure enough, there he was walking to the set. I ran up to him and I said, wait a minute. So, Greg, Gary, you know, I've been always thinking that he didn't have quite as big a hand in this, but I'm realizing, my gosh. Psychopath, right? And he goes, psychopath, and walked away. And that was like, that was it, you know, and that set me in a different pattern. So to answer the question as me protecting the character, I'm not gonna reveal, but.

[John Grice]

Well, that kind of aligns with how we have been kind of systematically second guessing Gary gre, if indeed either of those are his names, did he even work with the Bureau of Land Management? Was this all like an elaborate ruse to find a mark from the beginning?

[Gia Tolentino]

And has he done this throughout his life and just made fortunes? Spent them, Made them, Spent them.

[Josh Bearman]

Well, I couldn't anticipate what Mike was up to because that would be folly. He's always gonna surprise you. But he did Write to me one evening and said, are you available? Because I'm writing something for Greg. And this was before season two. And said to me. And he said, would you be. I just. I don't want to. If you're not available, I can't write this. And I said, no, absolutely. Anytime, anywhere, you tell me. And he said, okay. And by the way, he's diabolical. And that was it. And I was like, oh, okay, okay. I was like. I was really excited about it. It. And immediately I looked back at season one notes, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I changed a lot of things. I just. Just from that one sentence, I was like, okay, now I am. Because I always did reflect about, you know, this guy. Is he. Isn't he too good to be true? And. And that's why I was pot committed to the idea that he was indeed to die at any time. And so his attitude was like, I'm not gonna suffer anything. I'm not gonna worry about people's problems. I'm gonna live every moment in that moment. And Tanya, yes, she's. She cleaves to her drama, and I'll just, like, let that run off my back and just nod my head and smile and say, let's have sex. Let's drink. Let's have fun, you know? And that's what I feel like. Greg was always pushing towards her, like, come on, let's drink, let's eat. Let's. You know, because she ruminated over everything. Oh, should I?

[Gia Tolentino]

But once Mike said, diabolical, you thought, oh, that was just Greg being a spectacular actor.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, I did.

[Gia Tolentino]

And he's. It changed.

[John Grice]

Laying the foundation.

[Josh Bearman]

And it did make me go back, actually, now that I knew I was coming in for season two, and I went back over the notes for season one, and I did, and I went. Read the script again, because I saved all of them. And I. I said, yeah, yeah, this is understandable. This is a mark. You never see him with his fishing buddies. He's got these stories, right?

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, totally. The thing that Greg maybe did always orchestrate from the beginning, in your understanding, was the liaison with Italian stallion number one or whatever. But now watching this season, it's like, was this part of the cock thing? Was this.

[John Grice]

Was this trying to. Season two. That was his king kink.

[Gia Tolentino]

That was the king.

[Josh Bearman]

Well, I definitely feel that that is a reality with him. I mean, there's no doubt. And it's funny, even before I got to the scene where Charlotte kind of explains him a little Bit I had already fixated it in my brain. I was like, yeah, this guy is. He doesn't fall in love. He doesn't have that capability.

[Gia Tolentino]

He only wishes to steal his mother back from his father as the young boy. So it's funny, it's like that's perhaps the single truthful piece of information that we know about Greg Gary, that he has a cock fantasy.

[John Grice]

Oh my God. So it's not character, it's kink is destiny.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's gotta be so fun to have this show of all shows take you on this journey from like, you know, man attached to nothing but pleasure, you know, trying to live out life with this beautiful kooky woman he met to like pure sociopath.

[Josh Bearman]

Right. And I mean, it is, it's incredible. And yet at the same time, I also feel like there were moments where while I was playing him, I had this kind of counteractive emotion. So sometimes he's sitting there and he looks like he, he wants to kill somebody when in actuality in his mind he's like humming a tune. You know, it's kind of how I was thinking about him. He has a kind of. He has a singular sensibility. He doesn't really like people in general anyway. He doesn't want to know their stories unless there's something that he can gain. He's no interest in anybody unless they have something that he covets.

[John Grice]

He has a resting psychopath face.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Yeah. Inside he's just thinking about what he's gonna eat for dinner. I wonder at what point did you think that Greg Gary perceives Belinda as a worthy adversary, Like a real adversary, Someone that it might be difficult to get to go away?

[Josh Bearman]

I think that, you know, the interesting thing about Gary Greg is that he invites the path of least resistance. He's not, he always. He has a single mindedness, like I say, and he offers one chance usually. This case, he decided to back off of plan B. Whatever plan B may be, I'll not reveal. But I do think that he was thinking this could be too messy and it's better to just let it go away as opposed to handle it a different way.

[John Grice]

I like how you had your own plan B for a while and I.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like how you're protecting. You're protecting by being euphemistic about. It's like maybe we get another. We get Pornchi in there, we get some dirt on Belinda, we take it to the White Lotus management, we get her out of the executive training program.

[Josh Bearman]

There's always an opportunity if you are an opportunistic person.

[Gia Tolentino]

There's always a boat that someone could sort of slip off.

[Josh Bearman]

That's right. You always have to keep your eye open, of course, to me, when I look back at Quentin, I think, you know, listen, I see Gary Greg as someone who did, at some point, work for the bureau of land management. But in his book, a drowning victim is a drowning victim. So in his mind was why, you know, Quentin was the perennial fuck up. And why would he. Why do you.

[John Grice]

You.

[Josh Bearman]

You bring any kind of a. You're gonna put some bullet holes in somebody and drop them in the water. That's murder. If they're just in the water, it's just an accident. You know, I feel like his attitude about it was like, if that were the plan. I'm just saying this is a hypothetical. If that were the plan, why would you do it the way you did it? You know, I could imagine that the argument that he would have with Quentin going, no, no, dude, a drowned person is a drowned person. We pull them up all the time. We used to fish them out of the water all the time. And there's no way. Unless they have ligature marks or they've got a bullet in them or they've been bonked on the head. Are they murder victims?

[John Grice]

You really thought this through?

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, you know, there's something. So I was thinking that. And I was also thinking, perhaps you can answer a question that Josh and I had at the beginning, which was there's a lot of sort of necessary for the machinery, tempting fate going on in this season. I think at the beginning, we were like, why is Gary at the White Lotus? Why is Gary trying to escape the White Lotus?

[John Grice]

Seems sloppy, too.

[Gia Tolentino]

Living just up the hill and coming down there for dinner every night, you know, but, you know, I think you can assimilate it into the performance that you give throughout the season. I'm like, okay, he's just. He's got just that much shark like, confidence. He's just like, I'm here. If you want to talk to me about this death that I had no part of, I will have a conversation with you.

[Josh Bearman]

I think also, I think there happens to be a bit of blinders on here because he's in a place that he assumes that, you know, it's so far removed. But I think also it is where the menu of opportunity is for he and his girlfriend, you know, totally, you know, so you. You know, she's a wonderful lure. And so the idea of him having, you know, an appetite for, you know, whether or not participation or Just observation, whatever it is. He has an odd proclivity.

[John Grice]

We, of course, were, over the course of the season kind of debating what is the true nature of Gary's relationship with Chloe. She then reveals late in the game, at the party in this episode, the kink. And, like, okay, well, that's clearly some kind of bedrock, but what else is that relationship about? Is it a real relationship? What's Gary drawn to besides that, you know, the obvious. The obvious. She's a foxy lady.

[Josh Bearman]

Gorgeous.

[John Grice]

Cause at that party, also, a lot of the older guys and the young women, There's a whole funny bit with Kaposi as Victoria thinking that this woman's being trafficked and she can save her, but she's like, no, I really love him. We're in the relationship. So where do Gary and Chloe fit in?

[Josh Bearman]

Well, I think that, you know, Chloe, Charlotte Le Bon is so beautifully cast, as far as I'm concerned, because she is as operative and maneuver. She's a. You know, she knows the game and she doesn't suffer fools. And you can tell, this is somebody that I feel, and I felt from the minute we started working together that, yes, Gary has a great deal of confidence that she will get his back within reason. Let her have some free rein. Give her some rope, and understand that if you call her to action, she's there. She's in. And I believe that he's not telling her the whole story. He's created, obviously, an acceptable narrative between the two of them. But at the same time, you know, maybe Rick is right. Maybe she was an escort, you know, a sex worker. Who knows? Regardless, there's an understanding between them that I think is tacit. There's something that they share that is intrinsic. And beside the fact that she looks as good as she does and she's smart and witty and kind of cheeky. She's a good partner. She's a good partner.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. They're a good duo.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[John Grice]

I mean, they're both operators.

[Josh Bearman]

Exactly. He'll keep her around because she's in lockstep with him. And I think that, you know, he loves the idea that she. She went around, you know, and. And I mean, you know, I have a boat crew that's. That's operating the yacht. I mean, it's not like she was hiding from anybody because she knows they're gonna report.

[Gia Tolentino]

Gary's got the security footage.

[Josh Bearman]

Oh, totally, Totally. He was watching on his iPhone doing God knows what, you know, so, you know, there was coverage at the Full Moon party.

[Gia Tolentino]

He was like, oh, Lachlan. Okay, okay. I thought they were brothers.

[John Grice]

I see that one coming out.

[Josh Bearman]

That's a twist. That's a twist. All right. You know, the crazier, the better.

[John Grice]

This is going better than expected.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

John, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's such a treat to talk to you.

[Josh Bearman]

Such a pleasure. Great to see you guys.

[John Grice]

Nice to see you.

[Gia Tolentino]

Bye.

[John Grice]

Well, that was fun.

[Gia Tolentino]

Now we know. So he murdered Tanya, but he's got legal plausible deniability. He has a real cuck fantasy and.

[John Grice]

He'S a true psychopath. He has resting psychopath face and he.

[Gia Tolentino]

Did work at BLM once upon a time, but I don't even believe that. I think he was still answering as.

[John Grice]

Gary Greg, if that's even his name. All right, thanks to John Grice for coming on the show and see you on the next episode.

[Gia Tolentino]

We'll also have a bonus episode this week in which I'll be interviewing Dan Savage, author of Savage Love, host of the Savage Love cast, absolute icon to me and probably to many of you. I'll be asking him all of my burning questions about sex and relationships and brotherly hand jobs in season three. See you then. The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman. Natalia Winkelman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Piccillo and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewin Lai Trimuin at Campside Media are executive producers Josh Dean for the HBO podcast team are executive producers Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen Sirocac and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time. The official White Lotus Podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch. Every five star getaway needs a five star wardrobe, preferably without the drama. Abercrombie and Fitch's long weekend collection has you covered. Discover versatile Miele dresses, classic skirts and the refined A and F Collins suit. Easily styled for dressier laid back. Looks perfect for any moment on your itinerary. Your vacation starts now. Use Lotus 15 to get an extra 15% off almost everything at checkout code. Valid in the US and Canada through April 13th. Exclusions apply. See site for details. Pack wisely with Abercrombie and Fitch.