Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell

Summary

Episode Summary: "Amor Fati" – The White Lotus Official Podcast Episode 8

In the eighth episode of The White Lotus Official Podcast, hosts Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman delve deep into the emotionally charged finale of Season 3 titled “Amor Fati.” Released on April 7, 2025, this episode features an exclusive conversation with Natasha Rothwell, shedding light on pivotal moments and character developments that conclude the season’s intricate narrative.

---

1. Opening Reactions to the Finale

The episode kicks off with Gia expressing profound sadness over the finale's somber tone. “[...] I’m feeling sad. Yeah, I’m fucking sad. It’s a sad finale,” she laments at [01:15]. Josh concurs, highlighting the melancholy atmosphere: “It’s what you get when you tackle the season about death” [01:54]. Unlike previous finales that offered resolutions and reunions, this episode embraces a darker, more contemplative closure centered around themes of mortality and existential angst.

---

2. Exploring Central Themes

Gia and Josh dissect the overarching themes of the season, notably the contemplation of death as both an end and a release from life's suffering. Gia remarks, “Death, about life being a prison, about death being the eternal return and the release from suffering” [01:59]. They explore the philosophical underpinnings of these themes, connecting them to Nietzsche’s concept of Amor Fati—the love of one’s fate—and how it influences the characters’ destinies.

---

3. Character Identification and Tragedy

The hosts discuss their connection to key characters Chelsea and Rick, whom they view as embodiments of doomed fate. Gia shares her identification with Chelsea, stating, “She’s still my overbite representation. Queen. I do think... Chelsea doesn't have any bad qualities I refuse to assign to that angel” [02:41]. Josh reflects on his own character alignment, hinting at self-centered traits. The duo underscores the tragic inevitability of Chelsea and Rick’s story, emphasizing the heartbreak of their eventual demise.

---

4. Plot Developments and Resolutions

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the intricate plot twists and character arcs. Gia highlights the episode’s opening with a dawn sequence that mirrors the cyclical nature of the characters' lives: “[...] the whole episode... have the monk from the monastery talking about, we wake up every day looking with anxiety, looking for resolution, looking for answers” [05:32]. They debate whether characters seek resolution or choose paths leading to their downfall, pondering if acceptance of ambiguity spares them from suffering.

---

5. Spotlight on Belinda: Transformation and Agency

Belinda’s character arc takes center stage as Gia and Josh analyze her evolution from a nurturing staff member to a cunning individual asserting her agency. Gia notes, “Belinda immediately... she wants to be rich for a minute” [08:26]. Natasha Rothwell elaborates on this transformation, explaining how Belinda taps into her innate understanding of the wealthy guests to secure her own future: “[...] she gets the chance and I'm gonna get one” [40:38]. The hosts applaud Natasha for infusing humor and subtlety into Belinda’s portrayal, allowing her to break free from the show's structural niceness imposed on non-white characters.

Natasha Rothwell: “When we see her, especially those first few episodes, I think we really get to set up this sort of, like, tranquil sort of optimism... which is just a joy to play because it feels of the world of Mike White.” [45:13]

---

6. Thematic Conclusions and Philosophical Insights

Gia and Josh draw parallels between the show’s narrative and philosophical doctrines, referencing Rousseau’s ideas on authenticity and the state of nature. They suggest that true self-discovery occurs when characters shed societal masks, leading to genuine connections. Josh muses, “...civilization doesn’t just cause a moral or ethical kind of corruption... your authentic self is left behind” [24:16], emphasizing how the finale serves as a culmination of these existential explorations.

---

7. Exclusive Interview with Natasha Rothwell

The highlight of the episode is an in-depth conversation with Natasha Rothwell, who portrays Belinda. She discusses the collaborative process with creator Mike White, highlighting how she pitched pivotal scenes that allowed Belinda to assert her agency. Natasha shares, “I wanna see Belinda tap into her agency and risk it for a biscuit, man” [37:02], illustrating her commitment to evolving her character beyond traditional constraints. She recounts how specific scenes, such as the negotiation with Zion, were developed to showcase Belinda’s strategic acumen and emotional depth.

Natasha Rothwell: “...Belinda, she spends her life giving to other people and taking care of other people... she has to read them professionally for her work... she snaps into like, you know what? This is my chance and I'm gonna get one.” [40:38]

---

8. Behind-the-Scenes Challenges

Gia and Josh provide insights into the production hurdles faced during filming, contrasting Season 3’s expansive and dynamic settings with Season 1’s pandemic-era restrictions. Gia shares anecdotes about unpredictable weather and wildlife disruptions: “[...] we're just scared... we moved into a hotel and stayed there the entire time... now it's so massive... shooting in the elements” [48:03]. Natasha adds her experiences with on-set fauna, humorously describing interactions with reptiles that mirrored her character’s fears.

---

9. Final Reflections and Future Directions

As the episode wraps up, Gia and Josh reflect on the profound impacts of the finale’s tragic outcomes and the enduring legacy of Belinda’s character. They tease upcoming bonus episodes featuring creator Mike White, promising further exploration of the series’ intricate storytelling.

Josh Bearman: “Well, Belinda was in those streets... She had also done the math on her Sun Zion. That was really fun.” [51:11]

Natasha expresses her enthusiasm for potential future appearances, hinting at Belinda’s possible return and continued evolution.

Natasha Rothwell: “Selfishly, I want to come back. I don’t know if I will be, but who knows?” [44:46]

---

Notable Quotes:

• Gia Tolentino: “It’s a sad finale.” [01:15]
• Josh Bearman: “It’s melancholy.” [01:28]
• Natasha Rothwell: “When we see her... it's just a joy to play because it feels of the world of Mike White.” [45:13]

Conclusion

Episode 8 of The White Lotus Official Podcast offers a comprehensive and heartfelt analysis of the Season 3 finale. Through nuanced discussions and an insightful interview with Natasha Rothwell, Gia and Josh illuminate the complex interplay of character development, thematic depth, and philosophical inquiry that define the series. Whether you’re a long-time fan or new to The White Lotus, this episode provides a rich exploration of its final moments and the enigmatic characters that drive its compelling narrative.

Transcript

[Gia Tolentino]

The official White Lotus Podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch. Every great getaway deserves a wardrobe to match. That's where Abercrombie and Fitch comes in. Their long weekend collection keeps you stylish at every event from weddings to brunch. Featuring mila dresses and the A and F Collins suit in athletic or slim fit to suit any height for your next vacay, keep the plot twists minimal and the style top notch. Pack your bags with Abercrombie and Fitch. I'd like to make a toast to Thailand. And I just can't wait to get back home, but to Thailand. Thank you. Kom Ku Kra kun Kha khunkha.

[Josh Bearman]

Okay.

[Gia Tolentino]

Hello and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.

[Josh Bearman]

And I'm Josh Bearman.

[Gia Tolentino]

And I'm feeling sad. Yeah, I'm fucking sad. It's a sad finale.

[Josh Bearman]

I know, I know. It's a different feeling from the other two finales.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

Where everybody. In both cases, like kind of airport reunions, there's like the different kind of resolution. And here there's a lot of bodies.

[Gia Tolentino]

A lot of bodies.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. It's melancholy.

[Gia Tolentino]

You know, there's not like a gag at the end of the. Like, usually there's kind of a gag like you have Portia in her insane outfit, you know, like you've got Jake Lacey still being a dickhead or whatever. Like here. It's fucking stupid sad.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. Well, that's what you get when you tackle the season. About death.

[Gia Tolentino]

Death about life being a prison, about death being the eternal return and the release from suffering.

[Josh Bearman]

Escape.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, yeah. And when you have our faves from episode one, Chelsea and Rick, they were our self identification characters and we knew they were doomed, but we hoped, episode by episode, that they would make it.

[Josh Bearman]

I know so far you've been asking the question at the top of the show that kicks it off and puts us into the mode. And often it was, who are you identifying with? Now I turn the tables back on you. It's all said and done. Who are you identifying with?

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, the part where Chelsea is like, get me a donut. And then when Rick gets the look in his eyes, it's like, I'm going to murder someone in 30 seconds if I can't talk to my therapist. And she's like, no, Rick, no. And eats the donut as she's running after him. Like, that's. That's. She's still my girl. She's still my girl. She's still my overbite representation. Queen. I do think. I mean, Chelsea doesn't have any bad qualities I refuse to assign to that angel.

[Josh Bearman]

She's a perfect person.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's a perfect person. Yes. She's credulous, but I'm not willing to say that she has any negative qualities. If I am to search myself for my most negative qualities, I'm probably a Jacquelyn. Yeah. Like a. Like the self interest, self centeredness.

[Josh Bearman]

Queen bee.

[Gia Tolentino]

Queen. I wouldn't even describe myself as a queen. But, you know, the sort of behavior I'm feeling. I'm feeling a little Jacqueline. And who are you?

[Josh Bearman]

Well, I think my time on the Rick Walton Goggins train might have come to an end because I would not have been snapped back into revenge mode.

[Gia Tolentino]

Stayed in the sweet dinner.

[Josh Bearman]

Exactly. I would never have killed. Killed the killer of my father, or it turns out, my father.

[Gia Tolentino]

Likewise. You thought you were getting Oedipus. You're really getting it a different way now.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, I mean, Chelsea says, stop thinking about the life you didn't have and look at the one you do have. And I feel like, especially in the moment, coming from that beam of light entity who is giving you this incredible redemptive wisdom, I would have accepted it. And for sure, at the moment, I would have probably then vacillated and fell backwards and gone back and forth in that kind of tor. But no, in the moment, I would have been like, you're right. We're at breakfast. Let's just, like, get some. Get these donuts and get out of here.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. This episode, the last episode, XL sized, is called Amor Fatih. It's written and directed by Mike White. And later in this episode, we'll be talking to Natasha Rothwell. It was a real big moment.

[Josh Bearman]

And coming up in a bonus episode, very soon, we'll be sitting down with White Lotus creator Mike White to talk about the entire series. So look out for that. It opens with, like a dawn, right. The whole episode. And you kind of do the carousel of all the characters on their last day. So in that kind of round robin where we're seeing everybody again for the last time, maybe some of them forever for the last time, you have the monk from the monastery talking about, we wake up every day looking with anxiety, looking for resolution, looking for answers. And basically, what if there is no resolution?

[Natasha Rothwell]

What will happen today?

[Gia Tolentino]

What is in store for me?

[Natasha Rothwell]

So many questions.

[Josh Bearman]

If you keep looking for resolution, that causes suffering. So what if there is no resolution? Which is an interesting way to obviously open the episode where there is Going to be some kind of resolution for this story. But so then the question about it is sort of like, how are the characters going to be resolved? Are the ones who think they need resolution actually going to be choosing the wrong path, which is ultimately what happens. Right. And it's the ones who accept that there may not be a resolution that actually come out ahead that come through unscathed.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Unless you're Chelsea, who accepts that, you know, all we have is the here and now and she gets fucking murdered by a security guard caught in the crossfire.

[Josh Bearman]

I know. Poor Chelsea.

[Gia Tolentino]

Mook and Kaitok. They do end up together.

[Josh Bearman]

Mm.

[Gia Tolentino]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Josh Bearman]

I don't like her anymore.

[Gia Tolentino]

I know, I know. We hate her now.

[Josh Bearman]

You need to man up. And then I'll be with you.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, yeah. She's red pilled. She's fully red pilled. And by the end she's like. It's so the look of love snapping on and off in her eyes and she's like, weakness. Ew.

[Josh Bearman]

I know, I know. Oh, she plays such the ingenue, but she knows exactly what she's doing.

[Gia Tolentino]

But she wants him to be the. She's like, oh, you murdered someone. You killed someone. It's very sad. But he gets the girl.

[Josh Bearman]

He does. And I feel. I mean, he seems pleased with himself. Although I suspect, no, he's gonna be.

[Gia Tolentino]

Unhappy his whole life.

[Josh Bearman]

He's gonna be. Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right.

[Josh Bearman]

This is not the way that I wanted to succeed.

[Gia Tolentino]

Mm. So Belinda.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, let's talk about Belinda.

[Gia Tolentino]

Let's talk about Belinda.

[Josh Bearman]

They have a whole. I was really enjoying their return to Gary's house.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

And they show up and then Zion's like.

[Gia Tolentino]

Zion's crushing her NBA, baby. Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

Let's just let the businessmen talk. And turns out he's an incredible negotiator.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's an incredible negotiator.

[Natasha Rothwell]

A point is, is there enough money.

[Gia Tolentino]

Here for everyone to get their happy ending? I think so.

[Josh Bearman]

Five mil. That's the number he throws out. And then what's so satisfying when she leaves? You think it's genuine. And then in the hallway she's like, no, no, no.

[Gia Tolentino]

Say I'm crazy. Say I'm crazy.

[Josh Bearman]

Exactly. We could kill him. And then you're like, oh, they're a team. That's very satisfying.

[Gia Tolentino]

That's really satisfying. And I will say something that I have quibbled with in White lotus past. Is that by nature. I mean, it's built into the nature of the show that the non white characters have to be the nice ones because they. And so they're forced into, like, a structural niceness. They're on the wrong side of the entitlement that generates all the comedy of the show, like, necessarily. And, you know, it sucks to see Belinda immediately. Tanya Pornjai.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Some things have changed for me, and I'm gonna be leaving Thailand tomorrow.

[Josh Bearman]

I thought that was kind of great, though, in terms of.

[Gia Tolentino]

I thought she was gonna take it.

[Josh Bearman]

Like, I want to be with her. I know, well. So it's like, you realize in the moment, oh, no, it's happening. She's doing the same thing to him. My circumstances have changed. Now I'm rich. She's like, don't I get to just be rich for a minute?

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, I don't want.

[Josh Bearman]

To go start a massage. And I'm like, yeah, that's true. Okay. But then she immediately takes on, like, the values of the rich and is like, okay, I'll see you later.

[Gia Tolentino]

Stuff has changed. I'm not going to go into this any further.

[Josh Bearman]

She starts speaking elliptically and then is like, by the. And I can't ever see you again. Because she could instead just be like, why don't you come with me and we'll go on a world tour sex vacation.

[Gia Tolentino]

She has, like, the look of sort of distant condescension in her eyes.

[Josh Bearman]

And it's like, the minute, get some money, you're not the same.

[Gia Tolentino]

I think she plays. I think Natasha Rothwell plays this episode really wonderfully. Like, I think she's funny in the negotiation scene. It's funnier when you realize she's faking. You love getting to see her be like, oh, I'm a rich bitch now. When that direct deposit hits, we were all like, can you just deposit that much money?

[Josh Bearman]

I know, yeah. There was, like, checking accounts.

[Gia Tolentino]

Do that.

[Josh Bearman]

Like, technical conversation about, like, the. What are the money laundering logistics and how does that work?

[Gia Tolentino]

And what are tax implications for Greg? Gary, who cares?

[Josh Bearman]

Cut a third out of that right away from your 1099.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Bearman]

So it's more like three and a half million.

[Gia Tolentino]

But it is nice to see her get out ahead. And I wanted this whole season to see her just be selfish. To see her be cunning and selfish because that's what every other character gets to do all the time. Although I guess in the case of Mook and Gaitok, Mook is being selfish and I hate it. I want her to love Gaitak for who he is.

[Josh Bearman]

Right. Well, we've seen sort of Belinda's state of unease and kind of the struggle. So it's much more satisfying, I think, because we want her to win. And also this season she's saying, oh, you know how to treat a broke down bitch? And like, can't I just get a break? You know? And so she's kind of in this beleaguered state. So it's earned the satisfaction to see her become a cunning, rich bitch and win.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

Piper reveals at breakfast. She can't hack it.

[Natasha Rothwell]

No, mom, it is. It is pathetic. And like, I don't know, like, I guess I am spoiled. Cause like. Cause like, I can't live like that.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, sweetie, you don't have to prove anything. She wants to be absolved of that guilt.

[Josh Bearman]

She wants to be absolved. And then her mother basically gives this, like, ethical rationale for being content with your station. She's like, we have it so good and if we don't enjoy it, it's an off to the people who will never live this way.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right?

[Josh Bearman]

And she's like. And then that's like. That's sort of the capper on Piper's emotional reveal.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, yeah. I mean that. I found that conversation so painful and so funny. Her problem is now that she's too privileged and she needs someone to comfort herself out of being too privileged. But then Parker Posey's, like, giving the thumbs up over her shoulders.

[Josh Bearman]

She's one of us after all.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's a fucking spoiled brat. Honey, we did it. She'll never be poor. Cause she's afraid of it. Up till this point, she has looked like Wendy in Peter Pan, you know, and then now she's wearing color. Like she's been wearing white in every single episode. And now she's wearing, like, sequined blue.

[Josh Bearman]

She goes back, she reverts to, I'm.

[Gia Tolentino]

Getting my job at Sotheby's and like, you know, and marry just as rich as I ever have been.

[Josh Bearman]

Also, while Piper's revealing that she can't, she's not gonna be able to hack it at the monastery. Then Papa Fernholz is really like, shit, I guess I gotta poison her. Gotta kill everybody except for little Lachi.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, but he doesn't. He asks Lachlan. And then he's like, okay, so I don't have to kill him.

[Josh Bearman]

Okay, Four smoothies.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, four smoothies it is.

[Josh Bearman]

By the way, why do they just have poison fruit, like, laying around? What if there were children in the villa?

[Gia Tolentino]

Because that's what the. Sometimes stuff is just poisonous, Josh. That's nature.

[Josh Bearman]

That place is so manicured. They would have chopped those. Poisoned, you think?

[Gia Tolentino]

But isn't there a lot of stuff that's just poisonous if you eat it wrong? You know what I mean? Like, aren't like apricot pits poisonous if you.

[Josh Bearman]

That's true.

[Gia Tolentino]

That's a good point. I see your point, though, if children can be eating these fruits.

[Josh Bearman]

Small complaint about the hotel management to leave all this poisonous. Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's also, you know, we don't need to see it. But I'm like, look up the dosage, dog. You gotta look up the dosage.

[Josh Bearman]

Right. He doesn't have his phone. He doesn't know how to do it.

[Gia Tolentino]

Oh, he doesn't have the phone. You're right. You can't look up the dosage.

[Josh Bearman]

He's gotta guess. That's why it tastes so bad. He puts too much of the seeds in there.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's ripping them all open. He's doing animal crossing. He's gathering all of his little fruits.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. He's out there. Oh, my God. And then he gives this speech about, I'm supposed to protect you. And it's like Jim Jones style. Like, get ready 100%. I love you so much.

[Gia Tolentino]

We love you too.

[Josh Bearman]

We do love you. Love you too. But I was also just like, you're such a fucking coward. I was like, this is what I was thinking in my head. Like, we're expecting, like, Mook wants guy talk to man up by just like, kind of being good at his job. And then this guy's parading around like he's the king and he understands success and how to be the lion, the head of the pride. And then basically the first sign of trouble, he doesn't know what's really going to happen. He's like, okay, I'll just kill my whole family. It's such a fucking cop out. And so then I was sort of rooting for him when he was going to slap the death smoothie out of his kid's hand. Although, by the way, they had a little bit. So you'd figure they would have.

[Gia Tolentino]

They'd be shitting all night. Yeah. But this is arguably a whole thing about how you shouldn't take so much Klonopin that you end up leaving the dregs of your death smoothie in your blender. And he wakes up the next morning and he's like. He immediately looks at the blender. It's like he was relaxed enough the previous night that he was like, you know what? I guess I'm not killing my whole family. And Myself. I'll leave this dish for tomorrow. I'll clean up those dishes tomorrow.

[Josh Bearman]

I know. For plot purposes, the Chekovian smoothie has to be left on the counter. I was really hoping towards the end I wouldn't have seen this at all coming earlier in the season that Saxon would emerge as the unlikely, vulnerable, like, emotional star of the whole thing. He kind of almost gets there.

[Gia Tolentino]

He read the whole book.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

You know, there's that moment where Patrick Schwarzenegger comes down to the beach and tells Chelsea that he read the whole book, almost the whole book. And she's like, oh, amazing. And then she sees and runs to him and they have that, you know, lens flare moment. And Patrick Schwarzenegger, like, he has a tear in his eye, right? Like, he's.

[Josh Bearman]

I know. Yeah, yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

And he realizes for the first time that he's lonely. You know, like, he has realized that he's incredibly lonely. If he hadn't realized that he wasn't, that he was so lonely, he would have had sex with Chloe in the last episode in front of Greg. You know, like, he's realized he wants someone to love him.

[Josh Bearman]

Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's like the best we can get out of this character changing is the realization that he's not American Psycho after all, or whatever. He looks at Chloe, the female version of him, and is like, no, that's.

[Josh Bearman]

Not what I want.

[Gia Tolentino]

Whereas the first episode he was like, that's all I want. And now he's like, no.

[Josh Bearman]

When he sheds a tear for Chelsea and Rick's reunion, then turns back to Chloe, and then turns out Chloe is the hard nosed, kind of like sexual transaction based person, and he's turned off by that.

[Gia Tolentino]

And he realizes, like, again, he's vulnerable after the Lachlan thing, but he has realized that he's soulless and no one will ever get close to him unless he has a soul. And I do remember thinking, like, what I want for him. You remember when I said I wanted for him this season to confront the unknowable other, to confront the sort of unhappy unassimilability of just another person right in front of you, and how kind of terrifying and amazing that is that he's never experienced that, and I wanted him to brush right up against it. And I thought he was doing it in the funny way when he accidentally had a threesome with his brother, but instead he was doing it. When he saw that Chelsea actually loved that, something seemed so transactional, and actually it was love, illogical love. And he wanted it, and we love that for him. The family interaction that precedes the death smoothie is when Saxon is like, worship me, but don't jack me off, bro. Lachlan's reading his tsunami book that is foreshadowing his near death. And he's like, I'm a pleaser, right? I come from a family of narcissists. And he clearly feels trapped by his family. And Saxon says. He's like. He says, no one's gonna make you a man, okay? You gotta do it yourself. Which is, like, him talking to himself, you know, he's not talking to Lachlan at all.

[Josh Bearman]

The irony is that Saxon's trying to let Lachlan off the hook of what he had set him up at the beginning of the trip. Like, you follow me. Do what I say. Then Lachlan misinterprets that and tragically throws Saxon into this state of recognition of his emptiness.

[Natasha Rothwell]

All you care about is getting off, and I saw you lying there, and I thought you looked a little left out.

[Josh Bearman]

And I'm, you know, a pleaser.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's doing his best. And then Lachlan's like, you know what? It's been a confusing week. I'm just gonna make a smoothie with one scoop of protein powder water and this poison fluff.

[Josh Bearman]

Leftover pina colada, by the way. Yeah, like, what kind of is that?

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, some milk from the night before from Thailand.

[Josh Bearman]

There's kind of a nice irony that it's the first time he's gonna listen to his dumb brother, who's like, to be a man, you got to drink this protein shake, which his brother doesn't even believe anymore, and he's kind of lagging and is lost. And he says, I don't know anything anymore. So it's like his answer, I'll drink this protein smoothie with the dregs of the pina colada. And then that gives him his kind of death vision.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I think I just saw God.

[Gia Tolentino]

He tells his dad that he thinks he just saw God. But what we see him see is four figures hovering above him in the daylight that he's trying to swim to through black water. And at first I thought it was the family. Then it is the silhouettes of four monks.

[Josh Bearman]

You figure it's the family, and maybe they're actually standing around him or something. But then it kind of resolves into the monks, and you can kind of see the silhouettes of their robes. It would have been completely different if Tim's own failures had led to the death of his son only. And then also a Secret that he either has to keep or reveal his incomplete failures.

[Gia Tolentino]

I thought it was gonna happen. I mean, the general, sort of Oedipus esque trajectory of the thing you fear the most is the thing that you.

[Josh Bearman]

Cause it might be because maybe in the constellation of characters, Mike was thinking, there's only room for one pure tragedy, which is the Rick and Chelsea story. And to have another where they would maybe compete with each.

[Gia Tolentino]

It was a good fake out of the Jason Isaacs being the pure tragedy.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

But also, you know, we were talking about people passing tests in the last episode. It's like he. You know, arguably he passed the test. Like the second when he knocks the coconut milk out of Saxon's hand, he's actually saying, I am stronger than I thought I was and I don't have to actually kill my family. I mean, he's.

[Josh Bearman]

So you're saying in that moment, he's already. He has the strength even before he encounters Lachlan maybe dying.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Although when he's clutching Lachlan in his hands, he's like, oh, there are things more important than money, such as your child being alive. And I bought that. Like, I bought that he felt that, and he was like, that would have been a worse loss than all of it. And here I was 12 hours ago thinking, actually, I would kill everyone. In fact, I would give everything to just have everyone be alive.

[Josh Bearman]

I will say, for me, more affecting was actually the resolution of the three gal pals.

[Gia Tolentino]

I know. I want to talk about the gal pals.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. Well, so the first thing that happens is in the wake up sequence, they're going to maybe go get breakfast together. And Jacqueline goes and wakes up Laurie to be like, I just wanna apologize. So that was a nice sentiment. I'm like, oh, okay, they're gonna work this out.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, how I thought it was actually gonna work out was the way the dinner starts, which is they are far more distant than they were when they started the vacation.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

You know, like, you can feel the sort of the vacation ennui of the very privileged, you know, sinking in, where they're just like, this is done with. You know, like, let's get out of here. I'm tired from my vacation. And you think it's what Jacqueline and Kate start snapping into, which is the be. Which is like, isn't this just the most fun we've ever had? Like, I have felt so good, ladies, when I'm with you, like, I feel. I just feel at home. My heart is so full when I'm with you. And they're just fucking lying through their.

[Josh Bearman]

Teeth, basically trying to, like, crank up the Victory Tour rhetoric machine again. They're like, well, let's just see if we can put a little kerosene into that.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, get that hot.

[Josh Bearman]

Make it run again. Yeah, make it run again. And that's kind of where they're going. And then Kate is talking about in church, we learn about, you know, this whole herd kind of like recycled homily.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's like, the garden has bloomed.

[Josh Bearman]

The garden has bloomed. Here we are.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's like me hating my friends more than I've ever hated anyone. My garden has bloomed so much. I know. And then Carrie Coon steals the show, of course, as always. But her monologue is so beau. It's so good. Her face is so amazing, the way she delivers that. Jacqueline says, like, my other friends dislike me cause of superficial reasons, but you guys can dislike me cause of profound ones. Which I think is a beautiful thing to say about old friends. But Laurie breaks it all open, and by admitting how unhappy she is and has been with them, the girls end up like, they transcend the sort of Hegelian dialectic that they've been in the entire time, where they're either being honest bitches or fake happy, and they're actually real. They're honestly happy with each other because one of them has admitted their profound unhappiness.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I'm glad you have a beautiful face, and I'm glad that you have a beautiful life. And I'm just happy to be at.

[Josh Bearman]

The table when she says, I tried motherhood and that didn't do it for me. I was like, that's like a powerful, you know, like, admission. And so then she, like, reveals everything, and she's like, in fact, it's time. We're here together. That in itself gives us meaning. And we can, as you say, she does what the other ones would ever be able to do, which is, like, bridge that gap between the different cells.

[Gia Tolentino]

She finds synthesis. Yes, exactly.

[Josh Bearman]

I know, and I mean to join you in the graduate seminar analysis. I was thinking about sort of like in the original treatise that Rousseau writes, everybody kind of forgets. One part of it is, like, civilization doesn't just cause a moral or ethical kind of corruption. Which is why he's like, let's go back to the state of nature. It's being in a world where you have to pretend. You have to have appearances. Your authentic self is left behind. It's like, in the state of nature, you didn't have to Pretend to be anything. You were just, like, in your tribal bands and you were living this authentic life. And so there was no mask. You didn't have a mask. And so the mask comes off and the real people are revealed. And then they can finally be themselves together. But they only can because they do in fact, know their profound flaws and they can accept themselves.

[Gia Tolentino]

They've already said them out loud. It's already been out in the open.

[Josh Bearman]

And, like, I just. I was like, oh, they get to be their authentic self. And that's still basically what nobody else figured out how to do in the whole. In the rest of the show.

[Gia Tolentino]

And there's a nice. It's very sweet when they're kind of cuddled up on the. Their whole physicality changes. They've been all carrying themselves in such particular ways that correspond to the relative sort of self consciousness and truth telling versus not of every scene that the girls have. But they're finally. They're collapsed into each other like children. And it's nice to see.

[Josh Bearman]

Right?

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. They turn back into their sort of teen selves.

[Gia Tolentino]

Slumber party rides.

[Josh Bearman]

Right. Whether or not there's no pretense to be had and there's no appearance to keep up. Maybe Cameron gave Ethan and Harper a gift in season two by fooling around with one because it throws everything off. Jacqueline might have actually accidentally prompted a real reckoning with the friends that wouldn't have otherwise happened. Our avatars have had their tragic end on screen.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And they did get to die together. Together in eternity, as Chelsea knew. And throughout this episode, you know it's gonna happen. Like, they have their peace too early. You know the wheel's gonna turn again.

[Josh Bearman]

Mm. Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, the moment they have that, like, truly sweet thing over breakfast where she's like, I think we're gonna be together forever, don't you? And Rick's like, that's the plan. And it's the first time he's ever. And she has this profoundly sweet, like, shocked, mutually gratified, like, wow, this is as real as I ever thought it was. And we're gonna do this. We're gonna be together forever. And you're like, yes, because Scott Glenn's gonna kill both of you. He both is the father and the person that took away the father because he absented himself to take over Thailand or whatever. And he basically reveals this to Walton Goggins in the restaurant. But Walton Goggins doesn't guess it. At that moment. One doesn't know for sure he's right.

[Josh Bearman]

Obviously, I'm like, sitting here thinking about Empire Strikes Back, Luke, I' father. It's like, among the grandest dramatic kind of turns that can happen. I mean, in the case of Star Wars.

[Gia Tolentino]

Now, let's really get into the Revelation.

[Josh Bearman]

The revelation is purposeful to kind of draw them closer. But in this case, the father does not reveal it, really. He's cryptic and maybe. And he doesn't actually want to put that out there, which may offer, like, a completely different type of resolution. Right. For them.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. I mean, and I just really can't underscore enough. Why is Rick there the next morning?

[Josh Bearman]

It's a strange. The bad planner with his.

[Gia Tolentino]

It's like the hugest plot hole, we must say, of like, oh, I tried to kill the guy that owns this hotel, but I'm just gonna spend a nice, relaxing night, leisurely breakfast, get on.

[Josh Bearman]

At night just hanging out with these, like, kind of. Yeah, right. With the mini donuts. It doesn't make sense. It's bad situational awareness.

[Gia Tolentino]

I feel like there's some sort of implicit blame being placed on Amrita here, who's like, sorry, I really have to do this therapy session. She doesn't even want, you know?

[Josh Bearman]

I know. It's true.

[Gia Tolentino]

You're presenting in acute mental crisis. You're shaking and sweating and on the brink of tears.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. I feel like some kind of, like, staff training would have told her to put aside.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, she could have been like, zion, Session, Zion. Can you wait seven minutes? Like, I just need to talk to this man that's on the brink of murder.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah. I mean, yes. Having been in the situation, I was like, I need to talk to my therapist right now. I was like, definitely with him. And then he's over there just, like, sitting on a bench, like, waiting in the middle of the hotel, into which that scene then arrives. Basically his tragic ending.

[Gia Tolentino]

But then Chelsea comes running. She's finished her donut, and he's like, go away. I'm in snake mode.

[Josh Bearman]

He kind of has this English Patient moment where he's carrying Chelsea's body through the.

[Gia Tolentino]

I know. For me, I was giving O.C. ryan and Marissa. You guys know what I'm talking about.

[Josh Bearman]

And I like that we came at that. Completely different come from completely different angles. In theory, he's looking for help, but he's also just.

[Gia Tolentino]

No, he's not looking for help.

[Josh Bearman]

He's kind of doing this.

[Gia Tolentino]

He's not looking for help. He knows she's dead. He's staggering. As slow as a person could ever want.

[Josh Bearman]

That's true. That's True. He's in grand gesture mourning mode and waiting for the bullet in his back because then he knows he can join her and their eternal search for each other in the many lives hereafter. Which is. That's, I think, what you're meant to see. It kind of comes back around. It turns again where you're like, oh, well, they're actually together now. They get to be together.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

And maybe since also old man Jim is dead, he can go find him and they can work things out later. They can all spend some time together as turtles or wherever they're gonna be.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And then in the process, Gaituk is having his own test of like, am I gonna kill this man and choose the way of violence and in doing so get money and the girl and be unhappy with myself forever. But have sunglasses and a black top which signifies worldliness, which he does.

[Josh Bearman]

I know, new cool guy talk, kind of tamping down.

[Gia Tolentino]

Like he's hammering the nails on the box of his previous self voted personality. He's like, well, Mook didn't like him.

[Josh Bearman]

He's like, I'll try this new character on. But I think we both agree that, well, there's also a tragedy there. It's like, by the way, all the men succumb really easily to their urges. And I guess ultimately, ironically, Tim kind of gathers the strength to press beyond his vulnerabilities.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right. It's like, women are selfish, men are violent. In this season, only Chelsea and Tim, perhaps some of the girls transcend.

[Josh Bearman]

Right.

[Gia Tolentino]

And now Natasha Rothwell. Natasha, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk to us.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Thanks for having me.

[Gia Tolentino]

Before we get into it, I must ask you, what would you do right now if someone direct deposited $5 million your checking account?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I would delete Outlook because now I have to check it. And then I feel like with 5 million, I wouldn't. And I'd likely go to a resort of some kind. I don't like to be too hot, but I like to be near the hot with air con.

[Gia Tolentino]

So maybe a white lotus in Hawaii or Thailand perhaps.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, or any. Yeah, perhaps.

[Gia Tolentino]

Perhaps get a massage perhaps from a nice therapist named Belinda. Something like that, perhaps.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

What do you think that Belinda's doing with her?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I. I think she's trying to adjust to this sort of shot into this upper echelon of society. I think that, you know, she get out of dodge pretty quick. You know, she's worried about, you know, being pursued by Greg. And so I think she wants to go off Grid. Perhaps maybe she'll go buy her middle name.

[Josh Bearman]

She's gonna go full Gary.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, it's gonna be Barbara.

[Josh Bearman]

Barbara's gonna show up somewhere on her fancy boat.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Melinda. Yeah, you remember Melinda.

[Josh Bearman]

Melinda. No, no, no. I'm not Belinda. You have me mistaken for somebody else.

[Natasha Rothwell]

That's right. That's right.

[Gia Tolentino]

Right. You think. Cause I had. You know, another question I had for you was like. Is towards the end of this episode, you're like, oh, no, Belinda's becoming Tanya. Belinda is now Tanya. Yeah, but, like, maybe she's actually Greg.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I mean, maybe. Maybe she's a little bit of both. But I think, yeah, that moment is so heartbreaking with her and Porn Chai at the end there. And I think, you know, there's less. I think there's more grief on Belinda's part than perhaps Tanya's part. Tanya's about to go get Dick, so she's like, bye, girl. I gotta go.

[Josh Bearman]

And.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And Belinda's a little bit more heartbroken that. And she doesn't say no. She's just like. Just right now. Right now, I have to get my bearings. And I do think that maybe she'd circle back.

[Gia Tolentino]

Okay, that's nice to know.

[Josh Bearman]

Speaking of. Yes, Dick, why we were wondering, doesn't she just say, pornchot? Come on with me.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, Pornchie, let's get out of here.

[Josh Bearman]

We don't need to start a business.

[Gia Tolentino]

Let's Globetrot her.

[Natasha Rothwell]

No, I thought about this a lot. I think that Belinda, she spends her life giving to other people and taking care of other people. And I think her attraction to Pornchie, you know, initially was he was pouring into her and seeing her, and there was.

[Gia Tolentino]

He was pouring into her, so to speak.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Oh, come on, guys. Keep it classy. No, no, but he was emotionally.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And I think to bring him along with her, it would be sort of getting another dependent. And I think that, you know, she even says to Zion, she's just, can't I just be rich for five minutes? Like, she just is like, right now, no one is asking of anything from me. And, you know. Cause the first thing, Zion's just like, you're gonna make your spot. He's just. She's just like, let's just pump the brakes, and let's just like, sit in the space where I'm not doing something for someone else. And I'm not making plans. I'm just enjoying, you know, the comfort of security. And so, yeah, I think that that's. I think that's why she doesn't bring Pornchai on the journey for this next chapter because she's. She doesn't know who she is outside of, you know, So I think she'll.

[Josh Bearman]

Come back and do it to herself.

[Gia Tolentino]

Well, you're right. She's been taking care of people professionally. Her son's finally in college. Like, he's on the NBA track. He's an incredible negotiator. Yeah, you can feel that. Belinda's like, who am I? What is my personality actually? Even, like, when I'm not having to just take care of people, like, what would I even want to do?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I was very, very broke when I was, you know, working to become a professional actor. And I remember thinking back in those times when I was like, you know, going through the New York City subway and picking up cards off the ground in case they had money on them. Like those moments in my life I go back to, and I couldn't imagine not being, you know, in this never ending dread about money, you know, And I think that, like, when you have that switch turned off, there's just like so much more room in your brain to discover who you are outside of that sort of dire need. And I think that, you know, she had her son very young, you know, bills to pay, he's still a dependent. And I think, yeah, for her, she's just like, well, what do I really want now? And I think that's an amazing question that we can ask ourselves, even if it's hypothetical.

[Josh Bearman]

You know, that's nice shading on that moment for the character, because in the moment, I was reading it as almost this like, materialist argument that, like, money immediately changes as you and that she turns into Tanya as soon as she has money. But that's how it feels. That's kind of like, that's the pinch in the moment. But now thinking it through and talking about it, I like this idea that in fact it is about her evolution of character.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. And it's like, is her dream actually to open a spa or was that just the grandest thing that was possible within her whole framework, within her own self? Right.

[Natasha Rothwell]

It's like now you have to reevaluate what is possible with that kind of, you know, financial security. And I think that moment will feel like deja vu to the audience because of what happened to her. But I think if they look at it closely, you'll see, you know, there's. She's departing with kindness. And really she reiterates multiple times like some things have changed. And she's just like, needs to wrap her head around those things. Cause her life just got really big.

[Gia Tolentino]

You know, I think part of the reason that we jumped to the Tonya reading is because you get to be so. In this episode. Right. Like, I was, you know, Belinda is such a caretaker. She's forced to be sweet, but you get that she is. She's a lovely, wonderful person who sincerely wants to connect and have these things. But as a result, like, so much of the comedy on the show is generated from people being huge assholes. And Belinda just never gets the chance to be a huge asshole. And it is incredibly fun to watch. Beginning with that negotiation scene where you think Belinda's walking out for real, and she's actually like, no, make him think I'm nuts. You know, And I wonder if you could talk about that.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, no, it's actually a scene I pitched to Mike and a part of our process, like, we work together. And originally he had, you know, Zion negotiating without Belinda's help. And I was telling Mike, I was like, I wanna see Belinda tap into her agency and risk it for a biscuit, man. I wanna see her, like, you know, shoot her shot. And Mike's genius. He took that pitch and it was just. I was just thrilled because it walks that line where she gets to play her timidity, where audiences are just thinking she's going to be as she is always. She's going to, you know, swallow blood and, you know, keep her lips closed and let someone else speak on her behalf. And then we see that she's the puppet master and she's just like. And there's this beautiful moment that, you know, is caught where we see her sort of, like, out of fear. She kind of gets a little bit still. It's just this one frame. And you can see. Oh, it clicks in her head. He's scared. And that's when you see her grab her purse and stand up. And it's just, like, really cool to see her sort of work out. In that moment. We have him against the ropes. If I can convince him that I'm a threat, then this might just work. And to see her use her son and all of that, I think it's pretty neat.

[Josh Bearman]

We were wondering actually, like, when that comes on. There's a point a little bit earlier where she accidentally spits out her drink almost when Zion's like, $5 million. Was that play acting? Because she's already got it in her head that she needs to. To kind of create a triangulation here, or did it come a little bit later?

[Natasha Rothwell]

No, I think at that point in my mind, she agreed to a million with Zion. Like, that's what they said they were going to ask for. And in the moment he pivots and she's just like, jesus Christ.

[Gia Tolentino]

But then within the next 30 seconds, she's like, you know what, let's get that five.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Well, she sees that he doesn't flinch at the five and she's just like, oh, he's scared of me. So it's just like a really nice sequence of Zion pushing the envelope and she's choking on her drink, being like, that's not what we talked about. You know, like, and then we see her being like, oh. And it, you show, I mean, it really does show how great of a team they are. It's very amazing. Especially because they reach so many unspoken conversations.

[Josh Bearman]

I know who's like maybe 15 years younger than her. It's a little bit confusing.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

We were doing some math. We were. You know what, we'll take it.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Listen, I told Mike too, when he was talking about casting, I was just like, I love him as the choice. But it does say Belinda was in them streets when she was younger. I was like, just now. And that informs my character, which is cool.

[Josh Bearman]

Baby's making babies.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Baby's making babies.

[Josh Bearman]

And also it's nice because it even reaches back. It's so satisfying because this storyline starts in season one with her on the phone to her son. Like, guess what, baby, we're going to get the thing. And then it doesn't come true. And now here it is finally coming around. Tanya does accidentally give her the gift.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yes. Ultimately she died so that Melinda could. Melinda could fly, could live. But it's amazing too. You do realize in that scene you're like, we don't exactly know. I don't know that we know how long Belinda has worked at the White Lotus or sort of been in the. Sort of meticulous, catering to extremely rich, self centered people. But you're like, she has learned, you know, she has a sort of self interest and she can read them. She's had to read them professionally for her work for so long. And it's. I just found it profoundly satisfying to watch her snap into like, you know what? This is my chance and I'm gonna get one.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah. I mean, reading, reading those people, it's her superpower. And I think that like she shifts from fear to sort of agency in that way where she taps into what she knows and in that moment she sees that she has him against the ropes. So it's really cool.

[Gia Tolentino]

She's legitimately afraid of Gary for. Oh, yeah, right. Like the previous purse, where she's got. Where she's got the hands on the purse in the villa. Like, you know, like, she knows what he's capable of.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, yeah. And she could just have an accident and never be heard from again. And, you know, the stakes of her with Gary are raised because Zion is physically there. And I do think that is also why she's willing to tap into risking it, because she's just like, he's with me. And I think it's that sort of mama bear complex of just like, we gotta do this so he doesn't hurt you. You know, there's this kind of, like, protection that I think comes into play. And, yeah, I think her fear of him is just. Yeah. Exacerbated by the fact that her son is within arm's reach.

[Gia Tolentino]

She doesn't even know that he's been on Instagram zooming in on Zion.

[Natasha Rothwell]

She has no idea.

[Gia Tolentino]

But she probably kind of knows. She probably kind of knows. I think you said on the Look Back podcast that at the beginning or before the season started shooting, you had sort of sat down with Mike and talked about Belinda and the character and where she was going. Can you talk more about that?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah. No, I mean, I think this is why Mike is one of my favorite directors to work with. He's so collaborative and acutely aware that he's not a black woman. You know, being able to sit down with him and pitch things that, you know, feel authentic for the character through the lens of Belinda being a black woman, that initiated the conversation. And then obviously, we found very quickly that we're kindred spirits. You know, we're both writers and can geek out about words on the page. And so over time, I got more sort of hubris with my pitches. I'm like, oh, what about this scene and this and that? And all within the context and framework of, like, elevating what he already is brilliant at. So it's just a. To be able to collaborate with someone at his level who sees value in my ideas. And there's no version of it in which I feel like I'm being placated or like his arm's being twisted. Like, he's genuinely, like, excited, you know, when we get to talk about the lines on the page and my interpretation of what, you know, is happening in this moment. And that happened when I pitched him the scene with Belinda seeing the black couple. And that just came out of us talking of, you know, when I Travel. And I see black people travel. You know, it doesn't matter where in the world I am. I'm gonna go up and say something if we're in a really homogenous space, because I want that person to feel seen. And 10 times out of 10, they want. You know, they love being seen and want to feel seen by me. And it's this organic thing that happens in black culture. And I thought it was just so beautifully done in the show. It was originally a longer scene, but he cut it down to just the look, which I think said more than the words ever did. And, yeah, I just think I'm just so grateful to work with someone like him that sees all of my hyphenates. You know, sometimes you go into a space and you're just like, well, I'm an actor in this space. And even though I have this really great idea that could solve this problem that I'm overhearing in Video Village, I have to stay in my lane. And I feel like with Mike, he knows that I'm an asset, and so I just love being able to work with people like that.

[Gia Tolentino]

I was like, where's that? I was like, where are those other travelers? They just go.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, where'd they go?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Where did they go?

[Gia Tolentino]

I know.

[Josh Bearman]

I thought we were wondering, are they gonna come back?

[Natasha Rothwell]

They're just traveling around. They just living their best life, but.

[Gia Tolentino]

Wanted Belinda to have her vacation buddies, too, you know?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I know, I know. Maybe next time.

[Josh Bearman]

Being a character who has moved from season to season, who would you like to see come back in season four?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Ooh.

[Josh Bearman]

Like, of all the characters.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Of all the characters. That's a great question. I mean, obviously, Grey. I feel like he has to come back. I feel like Belinda.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Selfishly, I want to come back. I don't know if I will be, but who knows?

[Gia Tolentino]

You could, in the guise of Greg, like, you're there hiding. You're laundering your money. You know, Belinda's laundering her money.

[Natasha Rothwell]

We cut to her, you know, in France, speaking fluent French.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Bearman]

Right.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Just hiding, Right?

[Josh Bearman]

She's got a little confectionery shop.

[Gia Tolentino]

Porn Chai, too, is by her side.

[Josh Bearman]

Yeah, porn Chai's there.

[Natasha Rothwell]

There you go. Porn try is swagged out. And it's just like. Yeah.

[Gia Tolentino]

One of the pleasures of watching Belinda in the finale, as we were talking about, is she gets to be funny. And I wonder if you could talk about the ways that you have imbued this dramatic role. You know, not a lot of, like, again, so much of the comedy here. Comes from everyone being an asshole. Belinda doesn't really get to be. Can you talk about how you brought, you know, your comedy chops to this character and how. Cause it's subtle. It's in her reactions. It's in how she looks at people. It's timing. Yeah. I wonder if you. Doug.

[Natasha Rothwell]

But, yeah, like, when we see her, especially those first few episodes, I think we really get to set up this sort of, like, tranquil sort of optimism where she's, you know, getting massaged by porn chai. And she's learning, and she's floating in the water, and there's this kind of, like, shark fin coming out of the water, slowly coming towards her, that. To really fuck up her peace. And we see that peace reclaimed in the end. And I think that because, you know, the stakes for her are so high. But for her son, you know, he. Youth and naivete have given him peace in this moment. He's just out there swaggalicious with his sunglasses on. But Belinda's just like, we're gonna die. So when you juxtapose those energies, like, it's so funny to see someone have a really human reaction. And I think that's, like, why audiences are so drawn to Belinda. Cause Belinda, for better or for worse, is sort of the audience's conduit into these environments. And she has such real relatable reactions where it's just like, I'm a die. Let's call all the police. And just, like, she wants, you know, she's trying to stay alive, and she's gripping her purse like she's a nanny on a bus, you know, like she's having really human, authentic reactions, which is just a joy to play because it feels of the world of Mike White. And it's also adding something that we don't get to see through the other characters, you know?

[Gia Tolentino]

Totally. And it's also. She's the only one, like, something that was stressing me the hell out in the finale. I was like, everyone, get out of there. Like, everyone, leave. Chelsea. Rick, leave.

[Josh Bearman]

I know. What are you doing hanging around at breakfast?

[Gia Tolentino]

Like, Rick, you just tried to murder the owner of this damn hotel, and you're staying another night and having a donut?

[Josh Bearman]

Like, perusing the buffet.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And then white privilege. Listen. 100% motherfucking privilege.

[Gia Tolentino]

Melinda's like, we gotta get out.

[Josh Bearman]

I know. Belle is the only one who's like, listen, we got 12 hours.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Exactly. She was like, go get your meditation in. We changing our names. We're getting the fuck out of here. Like, she's not playing this. Let's hang around and, you know, maybe be friends with Greg.

[Gia Tolentino]

No, no.

[Natasha Rothwell]

She's streetwise for sure.

[Gia Tolentino]

I want to ask you. So you were, you know, season one, it was mid pandemic. I wanted to ask you about this filming this season versus season one of the pandemic. How. How was it the same and how was it. It a different experience?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I mean, it was just truly night and day because, I mean, it's worth mentioning it wasn't just mid pandemic. It was pre vaccination pandemic. So, like, we were being. Yeah, like, we were. We were just scared. And my covidity, timidity was peak, you know, because this, you know, this virus was hunting, you know, fatty baddies for sports. I was like, I am terrified to shoot. And my only reason for doing it, like, I met with Mike. I just loved him so much. So I said yes and to go there, you know, we moved into a hotel and stayed there the entire time. Like, we couldn't leave the property. And cut to this season. It's so big, it's so massive. I think we moved hotels maybe five times, maybe more. You know, it was a beast of a production. And I feel like, you know, the team that was responsible for this season is just extraordinary to pull off what. What they did because it's complicated. It's difficult shooting. You're shooting in the elements. So if it's, you know, typhoon season or rainy season, we have to, you know, we have to shut down production and we have to pick back up when the clouds roll through. And there are all these things to consider. You know, we had many takes, like, you know, when we were shooting those dinner scenes at night ruined by, like, elephant roars and like, you know, there were these massive toads that would just have huge conversations in the middle of scenes. So, you know, our AD is running around stomping and trying to get the toads to be quiet so we can get the lines out. And during the day, it was cicada season, so they're screaming and Josh is laughing. He was there. He was just like. He knows. It was just like. For as beautiful as people think, the experience it is. It is beautiful, but it is a lot, a lot of work to pull off recorded television when you can't control the environment. I do not like reptiles, and I did have to meet one for one of the scenes. So that was nature. That did not.

[Josh Bearman]

So this is true to life. Your character also was like, get those lizards out of my room.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, I Thought, like, it was at a point, I felt like they were. The lizards in the hotel were, like, gang members and they were. They were out to get me. And they would, like, be, like, yeah, yeah, she's. She's the one. She's scared. Be in my shower and, like, be. And I would, like. And I would get real, like, old lady about it, and I'd, like, make sure everything was dead quiet and try to listen for their little footsteps. And then I tried. Yeah. It was just. Yeah. Some Rube Goldberg, like, traps trying to set so they, like, go out on the balcony. And I was just like. Yeah.

[Josh Bearman]

Thank you, Natasha, for coming on the show. It was nice chatting. It was fun to see you again.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Likewise. Thanks for having me.

[Josh Bearman]

Well, Belinda was in those streets. Yes. Yeah. She had also done the math on her Sun Zion. That was really fun.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. She's delightful. We all were like, what would we do if we got $5 million? We'd immediately stop working today. Right?

[Josh Bearman]

It's like, that's everybody's fantasy. It's not to buy a boat. It's not to buy a big house on the hill. It's just, like, to have time to do whatever you want.

[Gia Tolentino]

Yeah. Well, thank you, Natasha, for coming on the show, and we will see you guys for a bonus episode after this. The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman. Natalia Winkelman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Piccillo and Aaliyah Papes. At Campside Media are executive producers Josh Dean. Sound design and mix by Bart Warshaw at Cocoon Audio for the HBO podcast team, our executive producers, Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Alison Cohen Sorokac, and producer Kenya Reyes. The official White Lotus Podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch. Every five star getaway needs a five Star wars wardrobe, preferably without the drama. Abercrombie and Fitch's long weekend collection has you covered. Discover versatile Mila dresses, classic skirts, and the refined A and F Collins suit. Easily styled for dressier laid back looks. Perfect for any moment on your itinerary. Your vacation starts now. Use Lotus 15 to get an extra 15% off almost everything at checkout code. Valid in the US and Canada through April 13th. Exclusions apply. See site for details. Pack wisely with Abercrombie and Finch.