Episode 1: Origins

Summary

The White Lotus Official Podcast - Episode 1: Origins

Release Date: January 16, 2025

Introduction

In the premier episode titled "Origins," Evan Ross Katz, the host of The White Lotus Official Podcast, sets the stage for an in-depth exploration of the acclaimed HBO series The White Lotus. Co-produced by Campside Media and HBO, the podcast promises weekly breakdowns of each episode, offering exclusive insights from the cast and crew. Evan enthusiastically introduces the podcast's mission to delve into the intricate lives of guests and staff at the luxurious White Lotus resorts in Hawaii and Sicily.

Genesis of The White Lotus

Evan delves into the early inspirations behind the series, tracing its roots back nearly two decades to an unexpected source: a pair of shoes.

[03:26] Evan Ross Katz: "I want to start off by talking about what led to the first season of The White Lotus getting made. The story goes back almost two decades and starts with something unexpected. A pair of shoes."

David Bernat, a Hollywood producer, recounts his pivotal moment in 2006 when he nearly lost an opportunity to work with creator Mike White due to his choice of footwear.

[04:01] Evan Ross Katz: "David was working at UTA when upon a recommendation from a friend, he went in for an interview to become Mike White's assistant. The footwear almost cost him the job."

Despite this rocky start, Mike and David quickly bonded over their shared interests in reality TV shows like The Amazing Race and Survivor, laying the foundation for their collaborative future.

Pitching the Concept

The original concept for The White Lotus emerged during a road trip across Andalusia, Spain. Mike White envisioned an anthology series following different couples on their honeymoons, exploring themes of colonialism and interpersonal dynamics within luxury resorts.

[05:03] Francesca Orsi: "We were walking on the beach and he said, 'I have an idea for a show... a honeymoon show, just following a honeymoon couple, kind of like scenes from a marriage through Southeast Asia.'"

However, pitching this unique anthology idea proved challenging, especially before anthology series gained popularity. Initial attempts around 2014-2015 fell through, delaying the project's realization.

Green Light from HBO

Fast forward to early 2020, amidst the global pandemic, HBO faced a programming crisis with limited fresh content. Francesca Orsi and Casey Bloys brainstormed potential solutions and reached out to Mike White, who was on a road trip across the United States at the time.

[10:50] Francesca Orsi: "It's really not every day that a writer, even an iconic one like Mike White, picks up their phone to find a TV executive begging you for a show idea."

Mike and David seized the opportunity, swiftly securing a location and embarking on an accelerated production schedule that would culminate in one of television's most talked-about series.

Casting the Ensemble

The casting process was both swift and meticulous. Meredith Tucker, the casting director with a longstanding relationship with Mike White, played a crucial role in assembling the diverse ensemble cast.

[16:22] Evan Ross Katz: "Meredith Tucker and Mike go way back, even further than David and his ugly shoes."

Jennifer Coolidge was among the first to be cast, cementing her as a pivotal character early on. Murray Bartlett landed the role of Armand, the hotel manager, after Mike White was impressed with his nuanced audition, ensuring the character would be more than just comic relief.

[18:18] Evan Ross Katz: "Meredith explained what he wanted. And I hadn't sent Murray's tape yet, but I had gotten it. And I said, 'Oh, I think you're gonna really like this one guy.' And he did. Yeah, he really loved Murray immediately."

Navigating Production Amidst COVID-19

The production of The White Lotus was heavily influenced by the constraints of the COVID-19 pandemic. Filming took place exclusively at the Four Seasons Hotel in Maui, Hawaii, necessitating strict lockdown measures where cast and crew remained on-site, fostering unique interactions and challenges.

A notable anecdote involves Lucas Gage, who played Dylan, navigating a viral audition mishap that ultimately led to his casting.

[19:52] Lucas Gage: "If I had got that show that I tested for and didn't get, I wouldn't have been able to do White Lotus, and I would have probably had a completely different path."

Naming the Series: From The Lotus to The White Lotus

Initially titled The Lotus, the series underwent a renaming process due to trademark issues with an existing hotel named Lotus. The team eventually settled on The White Lotus, inspired by the flower native to Hawaii, solidifying the show's connection to its setting.

[32:17] Francesca Orsi: "People think it's the White Lotus because it's Mike White. That's just a coincidence. We were in Hawaii already filming, and it just felt like, oh, that's an obvious connection because of the flower."

Overcoming Production Hurdles

As production neared completion, a COVID-19 exposure led to an abrupt shutdown just days before wrapping. Miraculously, the team managed to reconvene within a week, leveraging the brief window to finalize crucial scenes, including Jennifer Coolidge's iconic "urn scene."

[33:34] Francesca Orsi: "We were about three days away from wrapping season one, and basically we had to shut down production and go home... we had to bring everyone back for a week in Hawaii."

Reflections on the Show’s Potential

Evan reflects on the show's depth, emphasizing its exploration of morally gray characters navigating complex social dynamics.

[35:04] Evan Ross Katz: "This was a show exploring the complexities of human existence in a way that I simply wasn't seeing on television at the time. And as such, I was hooked."

Jennifer Coolidge praises Mike White's ability to blend humor with profound storytelling, highlighting his skill in creating compelling, multifaceted characters.

[35:43] Jennifer Coolidge: "He understands how to execute a story. He knows what appeals to an audience. He knows how to be provocative and thoughtful and really deep, but knows how to entertain."

Conclusion and Teaser for Next Episode

As the episode wraps up, Evan hints at future discussions centered on Mike White's personal history and how his experiences shaped The White Lotus.

[37:01] Evan Ross Katz: "Next time on the White Lotus Podcast, we'll be diving further into Mike White's biography to discuss how all of his experiences came together to inform his making of The White Lotus."

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe and stay tuned for more exclusive content and behind-the-scenes insights in upcoming episodes.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Evan Ross Katz [03:26]: "The story goes back almost two decades and starts with something unexpected. A pair of shoes."
• Francesca Orsi [05:03]: "It's a honeymoon show, just following a honeymoon couple, kind of like scenes from a marriage through Southeast Asia."
• Evan Ross Katz [10:50]: "It's really not every day that a writer... picks up their phone to find a TV executive begging you for a show idea."
• Lucas Gage [19:52]: "I think just trusting that something out there is like, what's yours is yours, and what isn't is not."
• Jennifer Coolidge [35:43]: "He knows how to be provocative and thoughtful and really deep, but knows how to entertain."
• Evan Ross Katz [37:01]: "Next time on the White Lotus Podcast, we'll be diving further into Mike White's biography..."

Production Credits

• Host: Evan Ross Katz
• Producer: Natalia Winkelman
• Associate Producer: Aaliyah Papes
• Fact-Checking: Gray Lanta
• Executive Producer: Josh Dean
• Editing and Sound Design: Ewin Lai Trimuin
• Special Thanks: Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen Sorokach, and Kenya Reyes from HBO Podcast team

Final Thoughts

"The White Lotus Official Podcast" premiere episode offers a comprehensive look into the inception and production of the series, enriched with personal anecdotes and firsthand accounts from key players involved in bringing the show to life. Whether you're a dedicated fan or new to the series, this episode provides valuable context and sets the stage for deeper explorations in future installments.

Transcript

[Evan Ross Katz]

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[Murray Bartlett]

Here they come. Big smiles.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Hi everyone and welcome to the official Look Back podcast for seasons one and two of the HBO original series the White Lotus. My name is Evan Ross Katz. I'm a writer podcast and I've been a fan and champion of the White Lotus since day one. When I heard HBO was putting out a new Mike White series and that it would be starring Jennifer Coolidge, I was, as I like to say, instantly seated, popcorn at the ready. And I quickly learned how many of us there were. As we all know, the series chronicles a week in the lives of the guests and staff of a luxury resort chain in Hawaii and Sicily. Each season begins with at least one dead body before rewinding to the beginning of the guest's vacation and unspooling the ants antics that led to the killing over eight episodes of this podcast. We're going to dive into these antics by analyzing how certain struggles over money, sex and power can drive people to the brink. We'll also be breaking down the show's unforgettable theme music and examining a selection of its most memorable moments and storylines. So buckle up because everything you thought you knew about the White Lotus is really just the beginning.

[Mike White]

I had pre recorded with a singer, basically one note, this thing with the.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Mouth, something like that.

[Mike White]

I jumped physically on him. Like I. I was a monkey and I was crying and I said, mike, I love you. I love you, Mike Yotiamo. I love you, Mike. I think they would have preferred somebody else for that movie. And Mike was like, no, I want Molly.

[Murray Bartlett]

It was like working with David Fincher. We did it I don't know how many times. Felt like 30 takes. I was like, oh my God, this is a nightmare. I don't know what I'm doing politically.

[Evan Ross Katz]

I'm probably more in line with the girls. The other hand, I'm like, now hold on. Now you're biting the hand that feeds you.

[Mike White]

And how dare you.

[David Bernat]

People thought it was sort of like.

[Francesca Orsi]

A bit that I was doing. Like, he really believes it. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. This isn't some angle.

[Evan Ross Katz]

That's the truth.

[David Bernat]

I really had concerns that a black character in a subservient position with mostly white actors, this could be horrible.

[Lucas Gage]

I knock the whole entire wine over. It explodes. On the Four Seasons, White couc. I mean, it ruins all the furniture.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Mike White was saying things that I felt that I'd been screaming into the void and trying to get across to straight people. I watched it going, oh, my God, I'm not crazy.

[Mike White]

Maybe it's just good to be killed off sometimes, you know, before people really hate your guts.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Before we get into all that, I want to start off by talking about what led to the first season of the White Lotus getting made. The story goes back almost two decades and starts with something unexpected. A pair of shoes.

[Francesca Orsi]

I was wearing a suit and dress shoes, which I thought were nice shoes, and then I later found out they were cheap, ugly shoes.

[Evan Ross Katz]

This is David Bernat, a Hollywood producer. In 2006, David was working at UTA when upon a recommendation from a friend, he went in for an interview to become Mike White's assistant. The footwear almost cost him the job.

[Francesca Orsi]

Mike hated them and then didn't want to hire me because of my cheap, ugly shoes.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Still, Mike ended up hiring David and he and Mike became fast friends.

[Francesca Orsi]

We bonded very quickly, really, on reality tv. We bonded on the Amazing Race, and I had two friends from college who had just won Amazing Race, which was an impressive feat at the time, knowing someone who had won an Amazing Race. And we bonded on our love of Survivor.

[Evan Ross Katz]

About a year after David had begun working with Mike, Mike left on a trip to Spain. David went with him as his assistant. Mike was supposed to be working on a new script, but instead the two of them really just coasted.

[Francesca Orsi]

We just drove around Andalusia and we had a crazy like 14 city tour when Mike was supposed to be working and I was there in Spain, supposed to be, you know, being his assistant and supposed to be helping him. But instead of just turning into a.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Vacation, it was on that trip that an idea for a series began to take shape in Mike's mind. An idea that would eventually grow into a television sensation. David remembers first hearing about it in Tarifa, Spain.

[Francesca Orsi]

We were walking on the beach and he said, I have an idea for a show, and it's basically like a honeymoon couple and it's an upstairs, downstairs relationship. And at the beginning, the groom is at the Airport, and the bride is missing. We don't know what's happened to her. And. And then we'll kind of cut back, and then you're gonna travel through Southeast Asia, exploring colonialism. And, you know, they're gonna be staying at these incredible hotels, and you're gonna have to see the same people at every hotel. Cause the same people have the same, you know, travel agents, and they're all doing the same tours. It's a honeymoon show, just following a honeymoon couple, kind of like scenes from a marriage through Southeast Asia.

[Evan Ross Katz]

We also talked about how it all began with the man himself, the writer, director, and creator of the White Lotus, Mike White. He tracks the idea back to his time on the Amazing Race, which he went on with his dad, Mel, in 2009, around the time he was working on his first HBO show, Enlightened.

[David Bernat]

The Amazing Race was exactly what I felt like I was missing in Hollywood production, which was like, I love traveling. I love getting out of LA and this sense of an adventure. And I was like, how do I do this? You know, whatever. I'm smart. I can come up with something that will supplement my life. You know, it's like, I need to come up with an idea. You know, Enlighten was great, but, like, we were basically on a soundstage in Burbank, and I don't want to do that again. You know what I mean? So, like, I had this idea. I was like, it should be like a couple on a honeymoon, like, Amazing Race, I guess, where it's like, you're following this couple who's out of their normal element. And over the course of the season, they get to know each other in ways that they didn't really know each other, which was kind of one of the main ideas of the first season. The Alexandra Daddario and Jake Lacey storyline, which is like a girl who gets caught up in the excitement of the wedding, and then she starts to realize who she's married to, you know? And then I thought maybe each season he'd follow a different couple on their honey, you know, like on some trip.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Mike and David ended up pitching the show around, but they had trouble getting bites.

[Francesca Orsi]

Mike always thought of this as an anthology series where each season there would be a different couple. You're exploring a different dynamic, different countries. And I think this was kind of ahead of its time where people were not looking for anthology series. There was a different iteration of it at one point that was gonna happen around 2014, 2015, and Mike was in Sri Lanka working on it, and it was Gonna be a honeymoon couple. I think we're gonna do Sri Lanka, Hong Kong and Tokyo. And then that fell apart.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Fast forward to 2019, when Mike started writing a series called the Tears of St. Patsy. It was set to star Mike's old friend Jennifer Coolidge.

[David Bernat]

I had another idea for Jennifer, a script that I had written about a woman who. She's an actress, and she's gonna get this life achievement award at some, like, obscure film festival in a foreign country and doesn't realize that the whole thing is just her. Her husband she's estranged from is trying to kill her before, like, the divorce goes through. And so it's like this conspiracy, you know, like, you know, dial in for murder kind of thing.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Mike and David shop the Tears of St. Patsy around. But everyone sadly passed. Actually, some years later, during Mike's Golden Globe's acceptance speech for the White Lotus, he made reference to the experience.

[David Bernat]

I know you all passed. You all passed on this show.

[Evan Ross Katz]

That brings us to early 2020. We all know what happened then.

[Jennifer Coolidge]

It was 2020, and we were just facing a pandemic that had us all on lockdown.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Francesca Orsi runs drama series and films at HBO, which means that in the spring of 2020, she. She and Casey Bloys, the CEO of HBO, were reeling.

[Jennifer Coolidge]

We didn't have much in the way of programming. We were facing complete open slots, just holes in the schedule without anything to air other than reruns of Sopranos. Casey and I were talking and sort of spitballing about who we could reach out to. That is great with story. Could maybe bubble up with a cast and deliver a season of scripts quickly. No one came to mind except for Mike White. And I didn't say anything to Casey on the phone at that point. I was just thinking, ruminating on it. But I just reached out to Mike independently, just to see what he was up to.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Remember how the original idea for the White Lotus came to Mike on a road trip through Europe? As coincidence would have it, when Francesca reached out to Mike In July of 2020, he was on another road trip, this time across the United States.

[Jennifer Coolidge]

I just remember getting a picture of him and his dog, and he said, I'm on a road trip. He was just kind of cruising. And I said, hey, Mike, do you have a minute? I just want to talk to you about a couple things. He calls me and I just said, if we gave you a certain box to play in, do you think you could turn around a show by such and such date?

[Evan Ross Katz]

I want to take a moment to situate for listeners how unprecedented this is. It's really not every day that a writer, even an iconic one like Mike White, picks up their phone to find a TV executive begging you for a show idea. I asked David Bernat about that. This idea of getting a call from HBO saying, do you have an idea? That's typically not how it works.

[Francesca Orsi]

Never works that way. Yeah, never works that way. It's the opposite. You're begging them to do something, and never do they call you begging for an idea. And I think it's one of those things where maybe had we made the honeymoon show in 2009, it wouldn't have been as well conceived or well received as what became White Lotus. This was like a once in a lifetime that HBO calls you and says, we'll do whatever you want. Can you just make it? Whatever it is, just make it.

[Evan Ross Katz]

After Mike and David had the green light, their first order of business was locking down a location.

[Jennifer Coolidge]

Because of the speed with which we were trying to execute everything, we were prepping while he was writing, he was casting while he was writing. Everything happened at once.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Francesca suggested that they just keep it simple.

[Jennifer Coolidge]

We had proposed to Mike, let's just go down to Palm Springs and take over a hotel. And that's what we pitched to him. But once the prepping and building process was underway and he had a production executive assigned and we hired a producer, then they started getting a little bit more sophisticated about the search. But the truth is, we were desperate on the creative side, the programming side, and we said, mike, help us out. Write something, shoot it, go to Palm Springs. But of course, it was ultimately whatever he wanted to do. If he could do it within the parameters of the budget, he could have gone anywhere.

[Francesca Orsi]

We were doing a search through the entire world. This time it was in August of 2020, and we were at one point going to film in Australia, and we were, like, talking to the government, and we were scouting and we were budgeting. And because of the COVID quarantine rules at that time, there just was not enough time to get visas, quarantine the cast, quarantine the crew, and then make the show. And Hawaii was the one place, Maui, that Four Seasons Hotel was the only place that said, okay, come and shoot. Everywhere else said no. You know, it's an interesting thing to think about in terms of creative process. We didn't have an infinite amount of choice. We had one location, one place. That's really what happened.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Let's stop and break down this timeline for just a moment. Mike gets the call from Francesca in July. He and David Bernad locked down a location in August. Then just a few weeks later, they're packing their bags and they're flying to Hawaii. Just two months to conceive, catalyze and prep what would become one of the biggest hits in recent television memory.

[Francesca Orsi]

We landed in Hawaii, you know, September 10th, you know, 9th or 10th. We were starting production end of October. We had one script and we had no crew and no cast. And within five or six weeks, Mike had to write five scripts. We had to crew up, we had to scout, we had to cast. And that was season one of White Lotus.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Mike started with the pilot. He knew he wanted a hook, so he wrote in a dead body. But there was a problem.

[David Bernat]

I actually didn't even know who was gonna die the first season. I started writing in August and we were shooting in October. So it was like such an accelerated and compressed time frame of writing. Like I wrote the first scene and it was like a bot. I was like, we should start with something, some kind of hook. But I didn't even know who was gonna die. In fact, the person that I thought was gonna die was John Grice's character. Cause that's why he had a cough and he was like, sickly. And I was like, maybe. And then as I got deeper into the season, I was like, oh, no, that's gonna feel like people are gonna feel cheated by that.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Interestingly enough, when John Grice read the first couple of scripts, he was convinced he was gonna be the one to go.

[John Grice]

We were filming the scene where I was swimming and then I come out of the water and I'm talking to Jennifer. And it's funny, that day was a very nerve wracking day because it was November 4th, that was the election day, and everybody was on pins and needles. I remember we were just standing there and Mike, just kind of musing to himself, was saying, maybe Greg and Tanya will be in season two. And I said, what do you mean? He goes, I don't know, maybe Greg and Tanya will be. Maybe they'll show up in season two. Like he just said that kind of off. And I heard and I said, greg's not gonna be there. I said, what are you talking about? Greg's dying? Because I was so. I wasn't trying to be glib or funny. I was really invested in the character is dying. That I didn't realize I was potentially talking myself out of a job. But I was like, you can't do that. He's dying. And he said, you can't Tell me that I wrote this character. I wrote this. I can do whatever I want with it. And he walked away from me kind of angry. But that was kind of a very revealing moment because I. It just set wheels in motion in my mind. Well, am I not dying? Am I gonna live?

[David Bernat]

The shift of having Murray's character die was something that I came up with like halfway through the. So it was not fully baked. I was literally just riding by the seat of my pants. That was very stressful in its own way because we were prepping and I was still very much writing. And it was, yeah, scary.

[Evan Ross Katz]

During all the chaos, another department was hard at work casting from the get go. Mike was super involved.

[Francesca Orsi]

Mike has always enjoyed that process. Merida Tucker, our casting director, who's amazing, has been working with Mike for, you know, since the very beginning of his career. I think she's amazing at finding those really interesting actors that are not obvious.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Meredith Tucker and Mike go way back, even further than David and his ugly shoes.

[Meredith Tucker]

I call him Michael. Cause I went to college with him and that's what he went by in college. I've known him since we were 18 and we are no longer 18, that's for sure.

[Evan Ross Katz]

The pair kept in touch after college. Meredith would even stay with Mike. When she was out in LA for work in the early 2000s, she cast one of the first movies Mike wrote, the Good Girl, separate from Mike. Meredith went on to cast for a variety of HBO projects, from Veep to Entourage to Boardwalk Empire, in other Words, all my favorite shows. When the White Lotus came along, she was the natural choice.

[Meredith Tucker]

We really were just casting off of the first script. We just started requesting self tapes. You know, it's a process and sort of learning more about the characters as they go on. The thing that's so great about casting for Michael is that he can spot things that he'll need in episode seven that might not be apparent to me or even. I mean, the actor probably doesn't. You know, he always said, I like people with a lot of colors. That's his terminology that he likes to use. The characters are so multifaceted, you know. And because he's such a humanist and I feel like. Because even the most loathsome of characters, he really does sort of have compassion for.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Connie Britton was the first person to be cast.

[Meredith Tucker]

We knew who was gonna play Nicole first. Just because Michael had a previous relationship with Connie from Beatrice at dinner.

[Mike White]

I don't want to have to talk about it at all. I'm on vacation. I'm trying to unwind from the stress.

[Evan Ross Katz]

That is my life.

[Meredith Tucker]

And then we just sort of started filling out the cast around her. You know, it was just going through a lot of self tapes, tweaking what he was looking for or trying to gauge what the tone is a little bit.

[Evan Ross Katz]

An early challenge was Armand, the hotel manager, a role that ended up going to Murray Bartlett.

[Meredith Tucker]

Especially with Murray's role. Like, the first bunch of tapes we sent, we were sort of off a little bit. It was a little too broad, a little too overtly comedic. And then he sort of explained what he wanted. And I hadn't sent Murray's tape yet, but I had gotten it. And I said, oh, I think you're gonna really like this one guy. And he did. Yeah, he really, he loved Murray immediately.

[Evan Ross Katz]

I mean, who wouldn't? Here's how Murray remembers his initial thoughts on the role.

[Murray Bartlett]

I read the role and I was like, it's such a great character, but it would be a shame if this character just became this sort of buffoon. Like I wanted him to feel real and anchored. And so it was really.

[Evan Ross Katz]

It was weird.

[Murray Bartlett]

I had this really strong thing of like, I felt somehow kind of righteous or self righteous about it, of like, I'm not going to play this like a. Like it is. It's already funny. I just. I want it to be somehow to feel anchored. So I. I felt very. I had a strong opinion about it, which I don't always have. Sometimes just watching them eat every night makes me want to gouge my eyes out.

[Evan Ross Katz]

At the time, just about everyone was holed up in their homes in lockdown. I try not to remember. It was a bleak period for actors. Hollywood was basically shut down. Self tapes had replaced in person auditions. And to some, it almost seemed like they'd never work again. One self tape story went particularly viral around this time. It belonged to Lucas Gage.

[Lucas Gage]

Yes, I remember so vividly.

[Evan Ross Katz]

In the White Lotus, Lucas played Dylan, a resort staffer who ends up having an intimate scene with the boss. But before Lucas even auditioned for the White Lotus role, he was on a zoom call for another show when one of the producers had a. How should we say, a mute fiasco.

[Francesca Orsi]

These poor people live in these tiny apartments. Like, I'm looking at his, you know, background and he's got his TV and, you know.

[Lucas Gage]

Yeah.

[John Grice]

Muted.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Lucas responded to the awkward with, if I may say, admirable self possession and honesty.

[Lucas Gage]

I know it's a shitty apartment. That's why give me this job so I can get a better one. All right, ready?

[Francesca Orsi]

Oh my God, I'm so, so sorry.

[Lucas Gage]

No, it's totally. Listen, I'm living in a. I'm living in a 4x4 box. It's fine. Just give me the job and we'll be fine.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Lucas eventually went on to post the clip on Twitter, where it went crazy viral. Looking back now, he's grateful that it happened as it did.

[Lucas Gage]

White Lotus was my next audition after that video. I was so excited about it. I had originally got sent the role of Quinn, and then they told me I was too old, and I was like, I don't care. I need to find something in this. And then I saw the Dylan character and I sent a bunch of emails and sent a bunch of tapes and, yeah, it happened really quick, though. I remember it was of. It was a fast process. After my little infamous viral video moment, I'm like, oh, my God. I. I was testing for this show and I. I lost it. And this guy, like, made a remark on my apartment, and now I'm, like, alone in my apartment. And if, like, you just don't know. And, like, if I would have got that show that I tested for and didn't get, I wouldn't have been able to do White Lotus, and I would have probably had a completely different path. So I think just trusting that something out there is like, what's yours is yours, and what isn't is not. And White Lotus has had a crazy impact on, like, the rest of my life, and I'm just thankful for it.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Of course, there was someone who was in the casting mix from the very beginning.

[Mike White]

It's a good feeling when you realize someone has money because then you don't have to worry about them wanting yours.

[Jennifer Coolidge]

I think Jennifer Coolidge, no doubt in his mind, in his heart, was always going to come out right in front.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Here's Francesca again.

[Jennifer Coolidge]

Jennifer was a very early choice and one that he probably had in mind. The moment I called him and said, this is what we want to do, he looked over at his dog and was like, this is my way to finally work with Jennifer Coolidge.

[David Bernat]

I was determined that if HBO liked this idea of a hotel thing, that at least one of the storylines would be Jennifer and work with her.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Mike met Jennifer COOLIDGE in the mid 2000s in the most Hollywood way, at a party for new Academy inductees. A couple years later, they played love interest in Gentleman Broncos, a very quirky comedy about science fiction writers.

[Mike White]

I want you to meet Dusty, your new guardian angel.

[David Bernat]

Mom's smoking hot.

[Evan Ross Katz]

They kept in touch afterwards and soon became close friends. I got the chance to sit down with Jennifer for a long interview about the White Lotus. I first met Jennifer Coolidge, or Jen, as her friends call her over Instagram. I was a very vocal supporter of the show at the time, as I still am, and she sent me a very lovely message honoring that. She wrote, I want to send you a special thank you for your posts. You have been incredibly supportive, especially during the White Lotus months. I asked her if she'd come on my podcast, and she agreed. We met in person months later, and our bond felt immediate. When we sat down for our White Lotus conversation, it was clear that it would be her final interview dedicated entirely to the show, at least for a while. In that sense, it was bittersweet.

[Mike White]

That would have been fucking genius, right?

[Evan Ross Katz]

You'll hear a lot of that conversation in a later episode. For now, we'll just stick to how she got introduced to the White Lotus. When Mike started workshopping the tears of St. Patsy, he reached out to Jennifer about the idea. Jen was naturally thrilled.

[Mike White]

He said, it's a very cool idea, he said, because not only will this be a great part for you, Jennifer, but we'll be going to very exotic lands and having this incredible experience. When Mike told me that it was not well received as far as, like, wherever he pitched it, he said, you know, we were turned down. I thought Mike was trying to spare my feelings, and the real truth was that he wasn't pitching it around town. In other words, that he had been sort of turned down early on by HBO or whoever it was, and that he was just placating me by saying, I did try some other places and we came close or whatever.

[Evan Ross Katz]

So Jennifer didn't really believe Mike, even after he cast her as Tanya in the White Lotus. For her to entirely trust his story, it took him declaring it to the whole world.

[Mike White]

When I heard him at an awards ceremony talk about how he tried to get it made, you know, the Tears of Saint paths he made, I was like, oh, yeah, you're not. This isn't. I don't know, somehow I was like, why? He can't be telling the whole. These giant rooms of people that we were going to really do it if he really wasn't. And then, I don't know. You know, sometimes when someone says, you know, I really love you or something like this, and that you don't really believe them till you see the ring or something. But when he sort of said it publicly, I was like, oh, my God, Mike, you really did try to get this going, you know, I mean, all of a sudden, it was just very real. You know, it was almost like he had film footage or something of pitches to these groups.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Mike reached out to Jennifer. Soon after the call came from hbo. He said that he was working on a different project for them, one that could be produced safely during the pandemic.

[Mike White]

He said, I'm writing something new, Jennifer. I'm writing a story. HBO is interested. I'm writing a series about rich people on vacation. And I just remember thinking, like, oh, that doesn't sound very good. I think I did get my hands. He did send me the script, but, you know, I'd already. A lot of us had just gone down the tubes. I certainly had during COVID I was. I don't think I dealt with the whole Covid thing very well. So I just, you know, sat in a house in New Orleans with a girlfriend, and we ate. We ate these vegan pizzas. I don't know, four or six of them a day. You know, we were in. It was a terrible time.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Always the same flavor. Or did you have, like, variants?

[Mike White]

We didn't care. Those vegan pizzas were so delicious. And it's so weird. I think we ate them so often that, I don't know. I don't think we've ever revisited them. I don't think there's any food better than pizza to really stuff your feelings. If you've had, like, four, you can barely thought, but, you know.

[Lucas Gage]

Yeah.

[Mike White]

And it just didn't feel like there was ever gonna be an end to, you know, the whole Covid. I felt like it was just. I don't know, it was just so scary. So when Mike, you know, sent the script and everything like this, I was like, well, there's no way I can recover from that. You know, even, you know, when they get the green light, I don't know if I'll be. I don't know if I could ever be ready in time for this thing. And of course, guess what? He got the green light. Of course he did. And I was like, well, there goes that. Cause I'm not gonna do this. I decided I wasn't gonna do it. I made that conscious decision. I was working on my lie as to why I couldn't do it, but I was 100% positive about my decision, was a good one to not do it. And then Mike, who's so in tune with people through the airwaves like, you can be in another country, and Mike knows what you're thinking, and he just. I remember that I was in New Orleans I was in my bed, and you hear that little ding on my cell phone in the middle of the night? And I looked at it and it was a message from Mike. And it just said, are you afraid? And it says, I knew. He knew I was going to bail. You know, it wasn't till I was at a girlfriend's house. She's asking me about, are you going to do that show with Mike White in Hawaii? And I said, no, I'm not. And she said, what do you mean? And then I just said, yeah, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing. I'm not gonna put myself in that position. And I'm not. I don't wanna be in a bathing suit in Hawaii with all these people. I just. I'm not doing it. And then I got that. One of those, you know, speeches of a lifetime.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Was it your friend that ultimately convinced you?

[Mike White]

Yeah, yeah. She was like, this is the dumbest thing you've ever said, and you're an idiot. And, you know, I'm here to, like, talk you out of this. Just never forget that moment, you know?

[Evan Ross Katz]

Do you think she knew?

[Mike White]

I think, yeah, she's a very really smart person. And, yeah, I think she was just like, oh, here she's gonna. Now she's gonna, like, ruin this fucking great moment. This great thing is coming her way, and she's going to screw this up. I mean, I wish I had it on tape. I'll never forget. I mean, it was the most, you know what I mean, in my lifetime I can think of, like, you know, just don't interfere with this great thing that's coming your way, Jennifer. Don't mess this up. I promise you, if you do not do this job that you're going to have horrendous feelings to deal with, that you won't be able to make it right. These moments don't come around that often. And she was just right about all of it.

[Evan Ross Katz]

I don't know.

[Mike White]

You know, you just sort of. I don't know. We all sort of talk ourselves into terrible decisions sometimes. And I just can't believe how lucky I was.

[Evan Ross Katz]

I asked Mike about Jennifer's hesitation. He remembered it slightly differently.

[David Bernat]

I mean, I assume she's telling the truth, but I didn't really. There was no way she was not gonna do the show because I was gonna go to New Orleans or wherever the freak she was, grab her and pull her, because I was like, this is the whole. The whole point of it was to, like, do this with her. And so, like, there was no way she was going to get out of it. Jennifer's very good at, like, disappearing. She's very elusive and sometimes she'll disappear and I'm like, there's a reason why she's disappearing. There's something going on. And so then, you know, like, I start poking around. She's also somebody who, if you just send a factual text with like, are you coming to the like with just a straight up question, she will not respond. The only things she'll respond to are things that are more like funny or evocative or weird or whatever. She does not like to be pinned down. She likes a more absurdist text. And then she'll come back with her own. Hilarious, like, yeah, like super long text about whatever, whatever. But like, yeah, the text that she will not respond to is, what time should we meet for dinner? Then it's just like, nothing.

[Evan Ross Katz]

So this time, Mike won. He pinned Jennifer down for the role of Tanya. That fall, Jennifer flew out to Hawaii like the rest of the cast, ready to hit the ground running, or rather hit the ground to their hotel rooms in quarantine and then hit the ground running after a safe time period. The pandemic aspect of the production was quite unique. It's rare that any cast and crew are all staying under a single roof, and even rarer still that they're not permitted to leave the premises for any reason. Little cliques formed, like Jake Lacy, Steve Zahn and Fred Hechinger, who were all staying at the hotel on their own. Other cast members brought along family members or partners, like Natasha Rothwell, who brought her sister, and Brittany O'Grady, who brought her then boyfriend, now husband. Given the size of the ensemble cast, there was a lot of downtime between the scenes. For some, that meant snorkeling, tanning or swimming in the pool. For Mike and David, that meant running around trying to pull together loose ends.

[Francesca Orsi]

There was a point, like we always joke, where it was like an experimental show where maybe the show didn't turn out, they just never would have aired it. But they needed to take big swings.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Even during production, they were still figuring out what the show was. It didn't even have a title for a long time. It was simply referred to as the Untitled Mike White Project. I asked David about the story behind the title. Where did the name the White Lotus come from?

[Francesca Orsi]

Yeah, the original title was the Lotus and I think I came from the Lotus Eaters, which is a kind of a reference to Tennyson. Murray Bartlett talks about it in season one.

[Murray Bartlett]

Hateful is the dark blue sky vaulted o'er the dark blue sea Death is the end of life Ah, why should.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Life all labor be?

[Francesca Orsi]

It was the Lotus. Then. We were told that the name didn't clear. There was a hotel called the Lotus and we couldn't use it. So then we came up with a list of, like, 15 other titles. And the White lotus was a flower in Hawaii, so that's why we chose it. People think it's the White Lotus because it's Mike White. That's just a coincidence. We were in Hawaii already filming, and it just felt like, oh, that's an obvious connection because of the flower. You know, when you're choosing the title, at that point, we're like, it's a limited series. We didn't even know genuinely if we were going to ever finish. It may never air. We don't know if it'll ever air. So you're not really thinking. Thinking it through or giving it that much weight.

[Evan Ross Katz]

At one point during production, there was a Covid scare. Several cast members had been exposed, and a bunch of people got put in quarantine. This was around the holidays, 2020. The production shut down. Some left Hawaii for home. The only problem, the show wasn't finished yet.

[Francesca Orsi]

We were about three days away from wrapping season one, and basically we had to shut down production and go home. So we never actually finished season one. And there was this moment, and everyone's schedules were crazy and Covid was crazy, and who knew what was gonna happen? So we actually went home and spent all of January, beginning of February, not knowing if we would finish the show. And Mike was editing. And we then had, like, a week window where Natasha was doing Insecure at the time, and, like, you know, Connie was gonna do a movie and Steve was gonna do a movie where we basically had to bring everyone back for a week in Hawaii. And it was like a logistical nightmare. But that week was really magical. A lot of incredible stuff happened that week because we had also seen the edit. So we picked up some different scenes, and we shot Jennifer's iconic scene that week while we were with the urn on the boat. And it's such a funny thing because we could easily have never finished had we not been able to find that time with everyone. And they weren't contractually obligated to us. They were off doing other stuff. So there's this weird good fortune that kind of came together. But. But, yeah, that was one of the most stressful moments of my career that, you know, between Christmas and when we did this pickups, how can we get everyone back to actually finish the show.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Thank God we got that, urn, scene. I know.

[Francesca Orsi]

Of course.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Mother. Mother. Mother.

[Francesca Orsi]

Yes. Yeah.

[Meredith Tucker]

I can't do this.

[Mike White]

You know, this is. I just realized it's too early for me.

[Evan Ross Katz]

It's okay.

[Mike White]

My mother. Mother.

[David Bernat]

Mother.

[Evan Ross Katz]

For me, the immediate draw of the White Lotus was the show's commitment to exploring characters with moral gray areas. There's this thought pattern you often hear people are doing the best they can, and this show seemed to say, well, even if that is true, what happens if the best they can comes at a cost to those around them or in some instances, simply isn't enough? What then? This was a show exploring the complexities of human existence in a way that I simply wasn't seeing on television at the time. And as such, I was hooked. And the rest of the world, they were too long before they went live. HBO saw early cuts of the episodes. Francesca remembers screening them.

[Jennifer Coolidge]

I remember Casey and I receiving the early cuts and us just literally peeing our pants, cracking up at the. Just the raw cuts, without even going through mixes or sound or looping or any of it. And they were it. They were perfect. There was a perfection to them. He's very much in tune with what makes an HBO show and what we need as programmers and executives. He understands the pressures we're under. And as much as we want a big hit, he wants a big hit. This is a man that's been writing since he was seven years old. So, yes, he's gifted, but he's just so skilled. He just knows how to execute a story. He knows what appeals to an audience. He knows how to have fun, but also say something with a show. He knows how to be provocative and thoughtful and really deep, but knows how to entertain. And that's a rare, rare, rare skill. Honestly, we were just really happy for Mike that he has that global recognition, because not only does he deserve it as an artist, but he's just a really good guy. And I like that. The world loves him.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Next time on the White Lotus Podcast, we'll be diving further into Mike White's biography to discuss how all of his experiences came together to inform his making of the White Lotus. From his religious childhood to his stint on Survivor to the fabulous enlightened.

[David Bernat]

I went to Bible summer camp and I thought I was possessed by the devil. They'd be like, go find Jesus and accept Jesus into your heart. And then, like, I'd go out into the night, and Jesus never showed up. So I was like, maybe I'm Satan's spawn or something.

[Meredith Tucker]

He was just so much more talented than the rest of us. And what was interesting is he had all these older women theater majors who were like gobbed onto him because I think they clearly knew.

[Mike White]

I saw an actress on an airplane, she's like, oh, you're so lucky. Every actress wanted that part of the mom on cracking up. That's like the best part.

[Francesca Orsi]

I stood up in the live audience and I just yelled uncontrollably. My arms raised like a child. And it's probably one of the happiest moments of my life.

[Evan Ross Katz]

The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by me, Evan Ross Katz and produced by Natalia Winkelman. Our associate producer is Aaliyah Papes. Fact checking by Gray Lanta at Campside Media. Our executive producer is Josh Dean. Editing and sound design by Ewin Lai Trimuin. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen Sorokach and Kenya Reyes from the HBO Podcast team. If you liked what you heard, please please please tell a friend about us and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And whether you're a die hard fan or this is the series you've always been meaning to watch, and I really hope it's not the latter because spoilers galore are coming up soon. Head to Max to stream both seasons of the White Lotus now. Thank you for listening and I'll see you.

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