Episode 2: Money, Money, Money

Summary

The White Lotus Official Podcast: Episode 2 - "Money, Money, Money" Summary

Release Date: January 23, 2025
Hosts: Jia Tolentino and Josh Bearman
Produced by Campside Media with HBO

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Introduction

In the second episode of The White Lotus Official Podcast, hosts Jia Tolentino and Josh Bearman delve deep into the intricate themes of money, power, and societal dynamics that underpin the second season of HBO's The White Lotus. Entitled "Money, Money, Money," this episode dissects character arcs, narrative strategies, and the show's commentary on wealth and privilege.

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Exploring the Themes of Money and Power

The episode opens with an engaging discussion on how money influences behaviors and relationships within the series. Natasha Rothwell introduces the central theme:

“How does our relationship with wealth, whether we inherit it, earn it, or lack it, influence our treatment of others? And how does the experience of struggle or privilege shape our attitudes about the world?” (01:04).

Hunter Harris emphasizes the intention behind portraying wealthy characters seeking healing and awareness:

“I do think that there's a purpose in helping even rich people, you know, helping them to find healing, making them feel more present, more aware.” (00:43).

This foundational theme sets the stage for examining various character dynamics and their interactions shaped by wealth and societal status.

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Character Deep Dive

Lonnie's Storyline: The Invisible Labor

The hosts analyze the character Lonnie, portrayed by Jolene Purdy, whose brief appearance in the first episode serves as a poignant commentary on the often-overlooked labor that keeps luxurious resorts operational.

“Lonnie's story only lasts for one episode, all while the hotel guests are blithely beginning their vacations. But her mini arc underscores a crucial point. There's a small army of people whose sacrifices and invisible labor keep the White Lotus running, even if their stories aren't always depicted.” (03:18).

Jake Lacey reflects on Lonnie's role as a narrative device:

“Lonnie as, like, the first image of the show feels like a disclaimer that, like, maybe we shouldn't be doing any of this at all.” (03:00).

Shane and Armand: A Feud Fueled by Miscommunication

The rivalry between Shane (Jake Lacey) and Armand, the hotel manager, is dissected to reveal underlying tensions caused by wealth disparities and mismanaged expectations.

“Shane may act like a baby, pouting and grumbling and moaning and getting all worked up, but ultimately he isn't wrong in his suspicions.” (34:45).

Fred Hechinger provides insight into Shane's justified grievances:

“This guy got fucked and he's paying $20,000 a night. He's going to spend $150,000 at this hotel, and you gave him the wrong room and lied to him.” (35:06).

Olivia and Paula: The Gen Z Dynamic

The complex friendship between Olivia (Sydney Sweeney) and Paula (Brittany O'Grady) is explored, highlighting themes of privilege, envy, and the quest for identity among Gen Z.

“The friendship dynamic between the two of them, where it's like one friend who in Olivia, who is, like, wealthy, has everything at her fingertips but still wants the one thing that feels unavailable to her, which is whatever Paula has.” (11:25).

Brittany O'Grady discusses her character's motivation:

“I think the core emotion that I would feel is just isolated and not feeling seen or heard and seeing things as unfair.” (13:45).

Mark and Quinn: Crisis of Masculinity and Identity

Mark Mossbacher (Connie Britton) and his son Quinn (Fred Hechinger) navigate their personal crises, reflecting broader societal issues related to masculinity and generational divides.

“Mark's crisis of masculinity comes up again later when he learns that his father was gay.” (17:10).

Jake Lacey highlights the portrayal of male loneliness:

“I see how he doesn't fit in with his sister, doesn't fit in with his parents, and is kind of like looking for purpose and looking for a way to take ownership of his life as a teenage boy.” (19:45).

Belinda and Tanya: A Tragic Intersection

Belinda (Natasha Rothwell) and Tanya (Hunter Harris) embody the intersection of service and aspiration, showcasing the often-tragic outcomes of exploitation disguised as assistance.

“Belinda is the audience proxy, a kind of moral compass amid a hotel full of entitled guests.” (28:59).

Brittany O'Grady reflects on Paula's alignment with wealth:

“She essentially chooses her tribe as well. Better to be aligned with the power and wealth than to position yourself against it.” (24:22).

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Writing and Production Insights

The hosts commend Mike White's writing prowess, particularly his ability to create multi-dimensional characters without clear-cut heroes or villains. The narrative technique of introducing a dead body as a framing device is discussed as a deliberate misdirection to focus on the exploration of money's impact on relationships.

“In each of the characters, each of their stories, each of the relationships or moments of friction, Mike has written everyone that you can understand where they're coming from.” (35:06).

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Audience Reception and Character Perception

The podcast delves into how audiences perceive characters like Paula and Belinda. Paula's actions sparked diverse reactions, with some viewers sympathizing with her struggle and others criticizing her choices.

“Some people felt like Paula benefited from the experience of the family and she was a part of the system of oppression, which I thought was a really interesting in depth take.” (23:26).

Belinda's character received acclaim as a relatable figure representing the marginalized workforce, with many viewers rooting for her amidst the chaotic environment of the hotel.

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Conclusion

Episode 2 of The White Lotus Official Podcast offers an insightful examination of the second season's exploration of wealth, power, and societal structures. Through detailed character analyses and discussions on narrative strategies, Jia Tolentino and Josh Bearman provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the show's intricate dynamics. The episode underscores the show's commentary on privilege and exploitation, making it a compelling listen for fans and newcomers alike.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Hunter Harris: “I do think that there's a purpose in helping even rich people...because rich people, they're the ones that, you know, fucking up the whole world.” (00:43)

• Jake Lacey: “He's a closet adderal snorter... Makes his dick even smaller.” (11:18)

• Brittany O'Grady: “I think the core emotion that I would feel is just isolated and not feeling seen or heard...” (13:45)

• Jake Lacey: “That is such a conversation that I just had not really seen on TV in such an intense, like, visceral way...” (16:21)

• Jake Lacey: “Everyone's behaving badly.” (37:25)

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Upcoming Episode Teaser

In the next episode, the podcast will delve into the complexities of the hotel managers, Armand and Valentina, further unraveling the show's intricate portrayal of power dynamics and personal transformations.

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from Episode 2 of The White Lotus Official Podcast, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened.

Transcript

[Evan Ross Katz]

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[Hunter Harris]

I do think that there's a purpose in helping even rich people, you know, helping them to find healing, making them feel more present, more aware.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah.

[Hunter Harris]

Because rich people, they're the ones that, you know, fucking up the whole world.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of rich, white, fucked up people.

[Jake Lacey]

They could really use you.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the White Lotus Podcast. This week, we're going to zero in on the themes that underpin the show's first season, specifically, how money shapes the way we behave in the world. We all know that Mike White is a master of taking champagne problems and spinning them into biting satire. You want a pina colada?

[Jake Lacey]

That's a lot of sugar.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Okay. But baked into the show are urgent questions about justice, power, hierarchies and exploitation. Like, how does our relationship with wealth, whether we inherit it, earn it, or lack it, influence our treatment of others? And how does the experience of struggle or privilege shape our attitudes about the world?

[Jake Lacey]

There were so many just very keen observations about how, like, rich people talk to poor people or young people talk to old people.

[Natasha Rothwell]

This is Hunter Harris, a culture writer and podcaster. I sat down with her to gain her perspective.

[Jake Lacey]

All of those interactions just felt like, oh, my gosh, I'm at the best party right now. Also, the specificity of these families, like, the families all feel like, the characters all feel very familiar. And I think that the way that these are not stereotypes, but just archetypes that we can fill in the blanks ourselves, works very well.

[Natasha Rothwell]

A lot of these ideas emerge in the show's pilot, which hinges on a character who, surprisingly doesn't appear again afterward. Lonnie, portrayed by the actress Jolene Purdy.

[Jake Lacey]

Will you be needing anything else at this time, ma'am?

[Natasha Rothwell]

We meet Loni at the start of episode one. She's a native Hawaiian and a trainee at the White Lotus, striving to make a good impression on her more experienced colleagues. And she could easily believed to be the show's lead. One thing is just, where are the bags?

[Jake Lacey]

Right there. Right behind you.

[Natasha Rothwell]

But Lonnie's storyline takes a turn when we learn that she's heavily pregnant, a condition she kept from her employer for fear of losing the job.

[Jake Lacey]

Oh, my God, Daryl, the baby's coming or something.

[Natasha Rothwell]

No. No way.

[Brittany O'Grady]

No, I swear, baby, it hurts so freaking bad. I don't know what to do.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Lonnie's story only lasts for one episode, all while the hotel guests are blithely beginning their vacations. But her mini arc underscores a crucial point. There's a small army of people whose sacrifices and invisible labor keep the White Lotus running, even if their stories aren't always depicted.

[Jake Lacey]

Lonnie as, like, the first image of the show feels like a disclaimer that, like, maybe we shouldn't be doing any of this at all. I think the first time I watched the show, I expected Lonnie to be bigger or more important. But ultimately, I think I kind of came around to the fact that she's not more important to the show because that's how the show is. That's how the people would treat her. That's what the show is critiquing this, you know, microcosm of society where this young pregnant woman who needs a job is cast aside just so that someone can get nicer pillows or someone can get a nicer table at dinner. And I think a very almost gamified way of watching television is, like, how is this one little moment scene gonna come back five episodes from now and, like, really turn everything on its head? And I almost thought, oh, maybe it's gonna be a version of that where Lani's gonna become, like, so integral to, like, a reveal at the end. And I'm so happy. I think it's a better show because it wasn't.

[Natasha Rothwell]

In the first episode of this podcast, you heard how Hawaii became the show's setting almost by happenstance, since the hotel was empty due to the pandemic. But the use of Hawaii as a setting is actually quite significant.

[Jake Lacey]

The legacy of tourism in Hawaii is one of extraction, of exploitation of. We've kind of taken this island and called it our vacation without any real concern or even sensitivity to people who already live here. I mean, at least as a viewer, I thought that was Mike White kind of saying, like, okay, we're trying to show what it is when white people come to a place where they are not from and really just destroy. And I think that. That it's Hawaii that it's like, the most beautiful, and yet everyone comes there to behave badly, to exploit and to destroy. And it's a place where everyone has their big epiphany, whatever. But we're seeing the people who make that fantasy real for them is very interesting. It's kind of like the most perfect setting for a story that is ultimately about dominance, about people trying to exercise or take more power over someone else. It happens between Tanya and Belinda. It happens between Olivia and Paula. It happens between the parents. And the Hawaii setting is just, I think, a perfect distillation of that dynamic.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I'm going to unpack each of the dominance storylines. Hunter just mentioned Tanya and Belinda, Olivia and Paula, and the Mossbacher family more broadly. But first, I want to switch gears for a moment just to talk about the very first character we see on screen. Shane.

[Fred Hechinger]

Travel agent must have called. Finally getting some respect.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Shane, in a perhaps unlikely casting move, is portrayed by Jake Lacey, who, up to his turn on the White Lotus, was known largely for a different sort of role.

[Fred Hechinger]

Leading up to doing this, I think what people maybe were most, like, familiar with me doing was, like, good boyfriend stuff. Just like the sweet guy you meet at the. Whatever, the cafe.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Obviously, Shane is not a good boyfriend. He's a tool and a brat. But when Jake sat down with Mike White to discuss the part, Mike framed the role in a specific way.

[Fred Hechinger]

When we first met in Hawaii, he sat with me, and he was like, you know, I think Shane is a good guy who just wants to have a nice time on vacation and everybody is screwing it up for him. And I also think that when you have a lot, a lot, a lot of money, there is a paranoia that comes with that about how you're being treated. And you don't know if people are being nice or rude because of what they assume you are or how they assume you are, or if you've done something and you didn't realize it and now they're put out, or if they want something from you or if they're actually being friendly. And so I think he's always trying to crunch the numbers on why he's being treated a certain way. People have been coming for me my whole life. I'm just playing the hand I was dealt. Yet it's a great hand, and that's not my fault. Those two elements together, for me were what I would lean on constantly if I was looking at a scene and being like, oh, I don't know what's going on here? And that is insightful beyond what I arrived with, you know, I was much more in judgment of this character. And he was like, no, he's a good guy. Because in Shane's mind, he's a good guy, you know.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Right.

[Fred Hechinger]

And knew to, like, offer that to me instead of being like, he's kind of a dick. Because then as an actor, you're like, no one walks around thinking, like, I'm kind of a dick. You know, like, I'm kind of rude to people, actually. You go. You justify the way that you behave.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Molly Shannon, who plays Shane's mom, Kitty, also got some great advice from Mike White on how to play a catty lady of leisure.

[Molly Shannon]

Well, I had somebody in my mind, kind of loosely in the back of my head, who reminds me of a Kitty type. I won't say who. So she was a little bit on my mind. But then Mike was like, no, no, no, you don't have to act rich. Because I think I was trying to act kind of snotty. He's like, no, no, you're just natural. You just have money. You're loaded. You're just a mom who's. You're just rich. And action. You know what I mean? He was like, throw it away casual. You've had money for a long time, honey.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah.

[Brittany O'Grady]

You're making me sound like a trophy wife.

[Molly Shannon]

Well, what's so wrong with that? I think she really just wants her son to be happy. So I think she's like, here's what you have to do, honey. Keep my son happy. Don't do this little job. Like, don't do that. You're going to be taken care of. Why would you want to work?

[Natasha Rothwell]

The show begins with Shane in the airport, gazing out the window as a body bag gets wheeled onto the plane. And in doing so, he sets up for the audience the big mystery driving the show. Who's in the body bag? The thing is that mystery is really more of a framing device than what the show's actually about. Jake talked to Mike about that.

[Fred Hechinger]

This is after we'd shot it. He was like, you know, I'm sort of making fun of the form. And I was like, what do you mean? And he was like, well, every show now is like a dead body. It's like rich white people in a dead body. So I actually want to talk about how does money affect relationships? Personal, private, public, at work, at home, family, marriage, employer, employee? Like, what does money do to not corrupt in a necessarily negative way, but just, like, taint those relationships or kind of put the thumb on the scale in one direction or another. And in order to do that, I show you a dead body at the beginning, and then we don't talk about it for five episodes, and then you find out who the body is. And so it's a little bit of a misdirection, but I'm kind of tired of these shows. I was like, dude, that's incredible.

[Natasha Rothwell]

After the dead body setup, we pivot to meet the remaining cast of characters, each of whom, as Jake pointed out, conveys something specific about how wealth impacts relationships.

[Brittany O'Grady]

He went to Dartmouth. International finance. She loves him, but he's got a small dick.

[Jake Lacey]

He's a closet adderal snorter.

[Brittany O'Grady]

Gives him an edge at work.

[Jake Lacey]

Makes his dick even smaller.

[Natasha Rothwell]

First up, Olivia and Paula, played by Sydney Sweeney and Brittany O'Grady. Hunter Harris told me that, like many, she relishes this storyline upon first watch.

[Jake Lacey]

My favorite two characters were Paula and Olivia. And not. I mean, they were like, you know, like the mean, hot teens who. I mean, my God, it's like I would do anything to get them to like me the way that a teenage girl. And listen, I have had this power before, and I've since lost it. Can look at you and just like, completely destabilize your entire sense of self. It's like, oh, my God, I actually apologize for breathing your air. I did not mean to, but I just thought that, like, the friendship dynamic between the two of them, where it's like one friend who in Olivia, who is, like, wealthy, has everything at her fingertips but still wants the one thing that feels unavailable to her, which is whatever Paula has. Paula likes this boy. Now suddenly Olivia turns her eye to this boy. Paula, you know, has these drugs. Now suddenly, Olivia really wants these drugs. That kind of friendship dynamic. It felt very, you know, relatable to me in my life as a young woman growing up in high school and in college and even sometimes till today, where you love someone so much, but at the same time you're coveting them so specifically, they were partying all night.

[Molly Shannon]

And making weird lesbian noises.

[Jake Lacey]

We weren't being lesbians, dad.

[Brittany O'Grady]

Yeah, we were being Sea hags. It was called the Untitled Mike White Project. It was just this quirky HBO show, and it was sent through my email during the pandemic.

[Natasha Rothwell]

This is Brittany O'Grady, who plays Paula. When she first read the sides for her audition, she had no idea what she was in for.

[Brittany O'Grady]

I just remember getting the script, and it was the sides where Paula and Olivia are analyzing all the people on the boat. And so I thought that Paula and Olivia together were Gonna be just these like quirky, funny, smart, alert characters. And little did I know that the arc was going to be what it was. And they were really going to either resonate with people or irk people or trigger people. The scene where Jake Lacy is swimming and he's like talking to us at the pool, that was like one of the first scenes. And me, Sidney and Jake were just like laughing. And so with Alex, we're like, this is such tool behavior. Like on his honeymoon talking to 19 year old girls.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Similar to how Jake Lacey accessed Shane. Brittany had to take a specific angle in order to bring Paula to life.

[Brittany O'Grady]

The way I channeled her was so interesting because I had to really justify everything she did, and I don't necessarily do, which I need to work on as an actor. I'm like, ugh. Like I kind of judge my characters and judge myself at times in my life. I guess that's human. But I think that the core emotion that I would feel is just isolated and not feeling seen or heard and seeing things as unfair was almost like you're in a room and you feel like you're the only one, but there's a bunch of people around you and they don't understand you, they don't see you or they only see you in a certain lens.

[Fred Hechinger]

Isn't she your friend?

[Brittany O'Grady]

Yeah, she's my friend as long as she has more of everything than I do. But if I have something of my own, she wants it. And I definitely related to that myself and my life when I was in college or just sitting at dinner tables with conversation being had and you being the only person of color or being a woman or being someone that wants society to progress forward and for us to learn how our actions impact other people.

[Natasha Rothwell]

It seems like Britney knew intuitively. Olivia and Paula aren't just acerbic teens. They're telegraphing what it looks like to be a Gen Z'er today.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Most people admire people who achieve things, but you somehow look at it as if it's a personality disorder.

[Jake Lacey]

Making shit happen all the time is a compulsion. It staves off feelings of emptiness or whatever. Okay, the real question is, what exactly are you getting done? Putin is an overachiever. He is impressive. Also evil. On the one hand, I can totally. I think politically I'm probably more in line with the girls. Like, you know, we probably shouldn't be going to Hawaii. Like, we probably should not be so thrilled that these native people are performing for us, you know? But at the other hand, I'm like, now, hold on now Connie Britton is kind of right. Like, you're biting the hand that feeds you, and how dare you.

[Fred Hechinger]

It's funny how you're able to have.

[Natasha Rothwell]

So much compassion for all these groups of oppressed peoples you don't even know, and yet not for your family. Yep.

[Jake Lacey]

Okay.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Who actually know you and love you.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Your generation's only sacred value, biting the.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Hand that feeds you.

[Jake Lacey]

That is such a conversation that I just had not really seen on TV in such an intense, like, visceral way where I think that's also kind of like, the skill of the show is that the minute that you're siding with someone a little bit too much, it turns on you in a second, and it's like, oh, but actually, these are kind of like two bratty teenagers who don't know what they're talking about, and they don't have to pay any bills, and they can't afford any of this. And the fact that they are not even aware of their own privilege is very telling.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Olivia and Paula turn a blind eye toward their positions of privilege, positioning themselves instead as the enlightened arbiters of right and wrong, cool and uncool. Meanwhile, Olivia's dad, Mark Mossbacher, is having his own crisis of identity, specifically the challenge challenge air quotes of being a white man today.

[Jake Lacey]

One of my favorite dynamics on the show was the kind of conversations around race and masculinity, where Mark is saying, like, well, you know, men can't do anything, and, like, you all want to cancel men.

[Fred Hechinger]

I mean, for years, I was the good guy. You know, I was the one in the room saying, like, hey, that's not cool to all the chauvinists and bigots.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And now I'm the bad guy. Or at least I shouldn't say anything on account of my inherited traits.

[Jake Lacey]

And I wondered, you know, where Mike White stands on that, because there did seem to be a real sense of, like, you don't know what you're talking about to the two girls, which in some ways they didn't, but in some ways, I think that they did.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Mark's crisis of masculinity comes up again later when he learns that his father was gay.

[Jake Lacey]

You know, he was probably at bottom, that's how you mostly get it, receiving dad. Do you feel like your father was less of a man or something? What really struck me about that scene in particular is that you can see the way that they're as a family unit, trying to, like, bend and understand one another, but also still kind of critiquing each other. And kind of like tone pleasing one another. But then they're also Teeheeing being kind of annoying, like, just like trying to Provok and Connie Britton. I think there is a way that she knows this language of what it means to be woke, whatever that means. And she's kind of offering an olive branch to them by saying, okay, I understand what you're talking about, but also, like, relax. Like, also, we're off the clock. Like, you don't have to do that.

[Natasha Rothwell]

You know, if he's having a negative.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Visceral reaction to his father having gay sex, it's valid.

[Natasha Rothwell]

It's fine.

[Jake Lacey]

Well, it comes off as homophobic. I think that is like a very funny dynamic between a mother and her daughter being like, okay, all that stuff that you're saying flies in seminar, but we are on vacation with your family, and you need to kind of dial it down. Like, you need to meet your father in this moment of his kind of anguish over this revelation.

[Natasha Rothwell]

As Mark faces his internal dilemma, his frustrations find a corollary in his son Quinn, played by Fred Hechinger.

[Fred Hechinger]

What's real is, like, gay, straight, whatever.

[Natasha Rothwell]

We're just monkeys.

[Fred Hechinger]

Just fucking monkeys. Yeah.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah. While Mark is busy reclaiming his manhood, Quinn diverges from his dad. He starts hanging out with the locals on the beach, mulling on nature and worrying about all the world's pain.

[Molly Shannon]

What does it matter what we think?

[Fred Hechinger]

If we think the right things or the wrong things, we all do the same shit. We're all still parasites on the earth.

[Natasha Rothwell]

This journey ultimately lands him at his own understanding of what it means to be a good man in the world.

[Jake Lacey]

During the rewatch, I was very moved, and I did not expect this at all by the son Quinn, and how he just kind of does not really fit within this family. I mean, I don't know if you saw the election, but there's a male loneliness epidemic. And I really felt like, oh, I see how that happens. I see how he doesn't fit in with his sister, doesn't fit in with his parents, and is kind of like looking for purpose and looking for a way to take ownership of his life as a teenage boy.

[Fred Hechinger]

Fred, his storyline, Mike pointed out, partway through, he was like, you know, he's the only one who changes.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Jake Lacy again.

[Fred Hechinger]

He's the only one who grows here. He's like the little prince. Like, he's the hero of the story. Everybody else stays in their shit. You know, they think they have grown or changed or had an experience, but they really haven't been present to the culture here or the islands or nature or anything. He's the only one who breaks out from how he arrived.

[Natasha Rothwell]

While Quinn is busy finding himself through the natural world. Olivia and Paula's storyline comes to a climax when Paula starts dating Kai, a Native Hawaiian who works at the White Lotus.

[Brittany O'Grady]

Hey.

[Fred Hechinger]

Hey, what's up?

[Brittany O'Grady]

Sorry I couldn't get away.

[Fred Hechinger]

Kwan, I got a surprise for you.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Once Kai tells Paula about his initiative to benefit Native Hawaiians, Paula encourages him to do something drastic. Drastic beings steal Olivia's mom's $75,000 bracelet from her safe. Kai ends up trying to steal the bracelet, only to be arrested for assault and attempted burglary. Ultimately, Paula doesn't help Kai. She hurts him, and in doing so, ends up positioned squarely alongside the Moss Walkers, despite her efforts to undermine them.

[Brittany O'Grady]

When I look back, I think the major feeling I would channel is just feeling alone or isolated or not being seen, truly. And I think she retaliated in a way that also caused harm to Kai and to his future.

[Jake Lacey]

Do you need money or something?

[Brittany O'Grady]

No, I just. You won't understand. I have a scene where Olivia is hugging Paula after she did what she did, and they're on this pullout cot and Paula's crying. And one of the takes, I said, I'm sorry. And then Mike came to me. He's like, don't say sorry. I said, don't say sorry. She's not sorry. I was like, damn. Okay. Like, it was. And that was hard. Like, it was challenging because I think there's a lot of women of color that constantly are being made to be small or made to accommodate whiteness at times. And so that was an interesting call out from Mike from the perspective of that character specifically.

[Jake Lacey]

I fucked everything up. It's okay. It's okay.

[Brittany O'Grady]

It was a big production. I was 24 at the time. I'm now 28. And it was intimidating, but also very. I don't know, I just felt so empowered and lucky and determined to play Paula. And I felt like Mike was such a champion for me as an actor and such a champion for Paula's storyline.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Once the show aired, Britney saw an array of responses to the character of Paula. Some people identified with her, others not so much.

[Brittany O'Grady]

Normally, in my experience, people just blurt out and tell me what they think, and then they're like, done. So people. I've definitely had some people be like, oh, my gosh. Loved Paula. She, like, she was the Robin Hood. Like, she was the one that saw everything. And then some people Were like, I didn't really like your character or my mom didn't really love Paula. And then there was a lot of online talk dissecting the characters, and a lot of people either related to Paula and felt like she was super justified. Some people felt like Paula benefited from the experience of the family and she was a part of the system of oppression, which I thought was a really interesting in depth take.

[Natasha Rothwell]

What Britney's alluding to here is the idea that Paula in the finale makes a choice to align herself with the Mossbachers. In the episode, Paula stands up to Olivia, finally giving her a piece of her mind.

[Jake Lacey]

I'm not my parents, Paula.

[Brittany O'Grady]

But you are actually. You are. You think you're like this rebel, but in the end, this is your tribe.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And yet after Paula throws away the necklace and then cries to Olivia, she essentially chooses her tribe as well. Better to be aligned with the power and wealth than to position yourself against it. At least then you reap its benefits. The Olivia Paula relationship finds a parallel in another season one dynamic, Belinda and Tonya. I talked to Hunter about it from minute one.

[Jake Lacey]

It felt sort of tragic to me that Belinda is allowing herself to get so hopeful because of who Tonya is. Because of the show we're watching, perhaps, but also just because of the way that, at least in my experience, a certain type of white woman has engaged with black women and black people. And so I watched it with a real sense of tragedy, horror, tension.

[Hunter Harris]

Here's what I'm thinking, Tanya. We could do a consultation. That way I can get a better sense of what's going on with you and your body. And I could give you a cranial sacral, which I always recommend.

[Jake Lacey]

So no massage.

[Hunter Harris]

I think you'll find this really cathartic.

[Jake Lacey]

When Tanya meets Belinda, their roles are very clear. Right. Belinda is a healer of sorts and like, she is being paid to help Tanya. But then it's like Tonya just kind of her own loneliness makes it seem like she is looking for something more. I don't know that she actually is. I don't know that Tonya really needs a friend or wants a friend because Tonya moves very minute to minute. It's like right now she needs a woman. Right now she needs a man. Right now she wants a boyfriend. You know, all of that, which I think is kind of interesting about her. But the Tanya Belinda relationship in my mind from the very first watch, like from minute one, it may be just because I'm a black woman that I just felt like this is not gonna go well. Belinda ought to have a very clear sense of what the boundary is between someone that is paying her for her time versus a real, like, true friend. And I don't think Tanya would understand that boundary at all, obviously, because that's what ends up happening.

[Natasha Rothwell]

We got the chance to talk to Natasha Rothwell, who plays Belinda, about the experience. Before the White Lotus, Natasha was known for a variety of roles, from her star making turn on Insecure to a personal favorite of mine as a tired but passionate teacher in love. Simon.

[Hunter Harris]

I'm classically trained. I came up in the theater, and while I love comedy, comedians can do drama. And to be allowed to do that and for the world to see it was the thing that was the most emotional for me. It was allowing the industry at large, but the world at large to be able to understand that, you know, plus size black women aren't a monolith. Like, we contain multitudes. I think that to me was the exciting part. And then to have that vulnerability of being seen in a new way, be met with such love, that was really powerful to have work exist in the world where I was able to showcase my flexibility as an actor.

[Natasha Rothwell]

When Natasha learned about the show, she said that her first thought was, how in the world are we going to make a TV show during a global pandemic? Which I think is an understandable thought to have.

[Hunter Harris]

I hadn't left my house, so I was just deeply concerned about, like, what were the protocols? Like, how are we going to do this? And, like, how do we act six feet away from each other? And then after the COVID piece was sort of discussed amongst my team, I really had concerns, not because of Mike, but just because of the world we live in. That a black character in a subservient position with mostly white actors written by someone who was not a person of color. I was like, this could be horrible. Like, not for anyone meaning it to be, but just because when you. It's just the world we live in.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Natasha's team reached out to Mike to see if he might be willing to meet with Natasha as a writer so that she could share her ideas about how to make Belinda more authentic. To her surprise, he agreed.

[Hunter Harris]

When I say he pounced at this opportunity. Like, I was blown away by the collaboration of Mike and his excitement overworking with me to the point where I got emotional with my agent because I was like, he's Mike White. Echo, echo, echo. You know what I mean? And I was just like, I had just written on Insecure, Like, I didn't have the resume he has in terms of writing. And so for him to want to work with me, I was just ready for it to be like, yeah, send him an email and he'll consider it. But we sat down and went through every single episode together.

[Natasha Rothwell]

For some viewers, Belinda was the audience proxy, a kind of moral compass amid a hotel full of entitled guests.

[Hunter Harris]

I think audiences over identified with Belinda as well, because they didn't want to identify as the guests. They were just, like, very much not wanting to be seen as the problem. And so I do think the support around Belinda was sort of twofold of just like folks really wanting to see more from this character, but also trying to absolve their own sins by rooting for her. There's this woman, this guest, this rich white lady. She took me out to dinner, and she said if I wanted to start my own wellness center, she'd fund the whole thing.

[Jake Lacey]

Mom, you have to.

[Brittany O'Grady]

To do that.

[Hunter Harris]

That fucking place exploits you.

[Jake Lacey]

Mom.

[Natasha Rothwell]

That lady says, jump, you say, how high?

[Fred Hechinger]

I'm serious.

[Jake Lacey]

Working. Get your own thing going.

[Natasha Rothwell]

You deserve it.

[Hunter Harris]

All right, we'll see. We'll see.

[Jake Lacey]

I think the Tanya Belinda relationship is one of the finer points of the show. The point that it gets very, you know, note perfect, because Belinda, you know, believing in Tonya is so tragic. It's so like, oh, she will disappoint you. And then I think on one level, Belinda knows that, and I think someone else even tells her that, right? She has a scene with Armand maybe where she watches him behaving badly, getting so intertwined in these people's lives a little bit too much, and she's warning him, like, okay, you know, be careful. Yeah, I'm okay.

[Brittany O'Grady]

I'm not going down that road again.

[Hunter Harris]

Then get rid of the pills.

[Jake Lacey]

Absolutely, 100%. And then she's, you know, being kind of captured by the exact same romance that, oh, maybe this one woman can change my entire life. Tanya makes Belinda feel very special because she's almost a mirror reflecting what Belinda has poured into her. And just like, the small ways, like, come to dinner with me. Even though, like, this is your place of work, why would you want to stay at work late? But then the minute that Tanya gets her cup filled by someone else, even a little bit, then she's, like, diplomatized, like, okay, see, I wouldn't want to be.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Over the course of the season, Belinda gets slowly crushed under the weight of Tanya's. What do we want to call them? Antics? Tanya dangles a carrot in front of Belinda. The promise that she'll help Belinda Start her own business before pulling it away entirely at the last minute. It's pretty heartbreaking to watch. Belinda ends the season with her pain entirely ignored by Tanya and drained of the energy to help yet another white woman looking for sympathy.

[Jake Lacey]

I don't want to burden you with this. I'm just having a moment. What do you think?

[Hunter Harris]

You want my advice? I'm all out.

[Natasha Rothwell]

That was the end of Belinda's run until recently when it was announced she'd return for season three.

[Hunter Harris]

I wasn't holding my breath for a more in depth story for Belinda, even though that's what I wanted, because I understood her function in this season. To be an agent of change for Tonya, but also bring a humanity to those folks in the service industry. And I felt like, you know, in my mind I'm like, tick, tick, you know, like the job was done. Although as a writer and as an actor producer, of course, I want to know where she lives and why she doesn't quit this job. There was more to her for sure. And when season two came, there was. I tried to explain to people, like, I had zero expectations of, like, oh, season two, I'm gonna come back. Like, I didn't think it was like repertory theater in that way. I thought it was very much like one and done. And I couldn't wait to see what the new class had to offer. And when I saw Jennifer come back, I remember texting her. I was like, yes, bitch. I was so excited for her. I think that's why when I heard about the season three, I was just like, out of my body excited because it was just like, oh, it's. We're going to do. We're going to do the thing. We're going to make her, like, we're going to dive deeper. And that was just like such a.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Treat to close out Natasha. I asked her a hard question. How has this show changed her life so many ways?

[Hunter Harris]

Personally, it made me realize, like, I need to, like, lean in to what I can do, which is really hard because imposter syndrome is very real. And even recently I heard this black woman on Instagram was just like, imposter syndrome for people of color is like, not a real thing because it's just us realizing how we're actually being perceived. It's not like in our heads. And so to look at it through that lens, it's, oh, this world that often sees me in a certain light is seeing me in a new way. And that. I don't know why I'm getting choked up, but it's a powerful thing to be a part of, something that allows you to be seen more fully. And that is life changing, both professionally and personally.

[Brittany O'Grady]

Oh, Mr. Patton and Ms. Undecided finding.

[Jake Lacey]

Everything to your liking?

[Fred Hechinger]

Actually, I think you put us in the wrong room. We were supposed to be in the honeymoon suite.

[Natasha Rothwell]

We've talked about Mike's exceptional writing. Now I want to highlight an example from Shane's storyline that showcases just how sharp it can be. Shane spends much of season one in a feud with Armand, the hotel manager, about his room assignment. He wanted the Pineapple Suite and was given the Palm Suite instead.

[Fred Hechinger]

You guys made a mistake, okay? So just. Just own up to your mistake. It's all I'm asking.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Shane may act like a baby, pouting and grumbling and moaning and getting all worked up, but ultimately he isn't wrong in his suspicions. Armand did screw up the booking and Shane wasn't given the room he was promised. I talked to Jake Lacey about that.

[Fred Hechinger]

We were doing press for this and I would be like, you know, Shane's not wrong. Like, they lied to him. He is paying an exorbitant amount of money for a room, and then they gave him the wrong room. And people, I think, thought it was sort of like a bit that I was doing as like a PR whatever. Like, he really believes it. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. This isn't some angle. That's the truth. This guy got fucked and he's paying $20,000 a night. He's going to spend $150,000 at this hotel, and you gave him the wrong room and lied to him about it. The way that he goes about addressing that is egregious. But the root of what's happened here is that he was lied to. And that in each of the characters, each of their stories, each of the relationships or moments of friction, Mike has written everyone that you can understand where they're coming from. And then you put people with different points of view and opposing needs in the same room and a limited supply and a lot of demand and shit's gonna go sideways. But there's no one that's really purely the villain or the hero. Like, it's not black hat, white hat, good guy, bad guy. You just go, what a mess. Wow.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I spoke to Hunter about this gray area too.

[Jake Lacey]

I've definitely seen that judgment. People thinking that, like, Connie Britton as Nicole is like, you know, such a mean spirited bitch. People hating Shane because he's like, just obviously so arrogant and obnoxious and like, Such a mama's boy and all that stuff, you know, is true or whatever. But at the same time, it's like, I don't think about watching this show and thinking like, okay, you're bad, you're good. Next. You're bad, you're bad, next. Cause that's just like, it's a TV show. And I think maybe it was because I had been familiar with Mike White's work before that I never wondered if he knew that this person was bad or this person was good. They're all behaving badly. I mean, my goodness, like, go outside. Everyone's behaving badly.

[Natasha Rothwell]

The Shane and Armand conflict culminates in the finale, when Armand memorably sneaks into Shane's room to leave him a special something in his suitcase. We're going to get into that scene. I promise we will. And the Armand character in depth in our next podcast episode. But for now, I'll just say it's a pretty remarkable ending. Jake Lacey thought so too.

[Fred Hechinger]

I'd seen the first script when I arrived in Hawaii, but that was it. And we had to quarantine for a week in our rooms. And they left five binders of all of the completed scripts in our rooms, in our hotel rooms. So then I was just alone reading these scripts, and I. At the end of the last episode, I was like, pumping my fist in the air out of enthusiasm for what this was. And also remember being like, are they gonna let us do this? You can do this. Like, I don't know why I thought that. It seems so naive. It's not like we're doing something hardcore sexual content or like wild violence or something. I've heard that a good ending has to be both inevitable and surprising. And that felt exactly that, really. Like when Murray dies, when he takes a shit in the suitcase and then gets killed. I was like, yes. Oh, my God.

[Natasha Rothwell]

That's it for this time. Next time on the White Lotus Official Podcast, we'll dive into the season one and season two hotel managers, Armand and Valentina.

[Jake Lacey]

I felt, oh, my God, I have to explain. Who is Peppa Pig? I didn't say that Jennifer is a pig. I remember at that moment, I was.

[Molly Shannon]

Sure to be fired.

[Jake Lacey]

We went to Mike and said, we.

[Fred Hechinger]

Think this should be like an ass eating thing. And he was like.

[Brittany O'Grady]

He paused and then he went, can we do that?

[Natasha Rothwell]

The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by me, Evan Ross Katz, and produced by Natalia Winkelman. Our associate producer is Aaliyah Papes. Fact checking by Gray Lanta at Campside Media. Our Executive producer is Josh Dean. Sound design and mix by Bart Warshaw at Cocoa. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Sirocac and Kenya Reyes from the HBO Podcast Team. Thank you for listening and I'll see you next time.

[Evan Ross Katz]

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