Episode 3: The Managers with Murray Bartlett and Sabrina Impacciatore

Summary

The White Lotus Official Podcast: Episode 3 - The Managers with Murray Bartlett and Sabrina Impacciatore

In Episode 3 of The White Lotus Official Podcast, hosts Jia Tolentino and Josh Bearman delve deep into the intricacies of Season 3 of HBO’s acclaimed series by engaging in an insightful conversation with actors Murray Bartlett and Sabrina Impacciatore. These two stars bring to life the characters Armand and Valentina, respectively—both managers at the White Lotus resort who navigate the complex dynamics of catering to a predominantly straight clientele while managing their own personal and professional challenges.

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Parallel Characters: Armand and Valentina

The episode opens with a discussion on the striking parallels between Armand and Valentina. Both characters share the same job title and are depicted as gay men who must constantly adapt to the demands of their straight guests. Murray Bartlett emphasizes the subtle nuances of their roles:

"[...] self disclosure is discouraged, especially with these VIPs who arrive on the boat. You know, you don't want to be too specific as a presence, as an identity. You want to be more generic." (00:38)

Sabrina Impacciatore concurs, reinforcing the idea that both characters embody a form of “tropical kabuki”, where their true identities are masked to create an impression of seamless service and vagueness for guest satisfaction (00:56).

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Auditioning and Casting Experiences

Sabrina Impacciatore’s Journey

Sabrina shares her emotional rollercoaster upon receiving the casting call:

"I was literally walking on people. And then I went out of the theater and there were my two Italian agents on a video call, and they told me this unbelievable news. And I started to cry and laugh and scream, and I still was in the theater." (11:40)

Her vivid recounting highlights the overwhelming joy and disbelief she felt, cementing her place in the show.

Murray Bartlett’s Experience

Murray details his audition process during the pandemic, highlighting the surreal nature of receiving a callback:

"It was such a surreal experience anyway, but also in, you know, in the midst of a Pandemic and all of that. It was just. It was a strange and wonderful thing." (15:16)

He recalls his first meeting with the cast, including Jennifer Coolidge, whose enthusiasm added to his excitement:

"Coolidge wanted this role. Like, no pressure. So it was like. It was sort of a slow unfolding of me realizing that I had the role and what the job was and that it was actually real." (15:34)

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Discovering the Characters: Breakthrough Moments

Both actors describe their initial struggles and eventual breakthroughs in embodying their characters.

Sabrina’s Transformation into Valentina

Sabrina admits feeling lost at first, unable to fully grasp her character’s essence:

"I was too intimidated. So I just followed Mike's indications for the first days. And he told me this sentence that was, the more she's bitchy, the more she's funny." (16:04)

A pivotal moment occurs when she delivers the infamous "Peppa Pig" line, which Mike White encouraged to bring out Valentina’s bitchy yet humorous side. This breakthrough allowed her to fully merge into her role:

"From that moment, like, something made a click inside of me and I got the character there." (18:56)

Murray’s Journey as Armand

Murray echoes similar sentiments, detailing the intense and collaborative environment fostered by Mike White:

"Mike leaves space for that I mean, the script didn't really change much after those first couple of scenes at all. But he adjusts to what you're bringing to it." (21:05)

This adaptive approach enabled both actors to explore and refine their characters organically, leading to rich and authentic performances.

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Memorable and Controversial Scenes

The Analingus Scene

One of the most talked-about moments involves Armand and Lucas Gage’s characters engaging in an analingus encounter. Murray and Sabrina discuss the spontaneous creation of this scene:

"Lucas and I came up with this idea of like, oh, my God, what if we did that? And so we went to Mike and said, we think this should be like an ass eating thing." (24:06)

Dan Savage, a guest on the podcast, provides context on the scene's significance within gay culture, explaining:

"[...] this is the progression. This is the beginning of the Ass play. And it was interesting." (27:45)

Lucas Gage adds that the scene’s virality was unexpected:

"It was like such a spur of the moment decision, like we're about to. And then me and Murray and Mike are just discussing really quick, like, what can we do that's even more funny or more. More interesting and more shocking." (29:02)

The Turd in the Suitcase Scene

Another unforgettable moment features Armand discovering feces in his luggage, a scene meticulously crafted for maximum impact. Murray shares the behind-the-scenes efforts:

"It was painstakingly detailed and precise in the way that we shot it. We did all different angles. I had like a five minute conversation with the props guy about the, like, what he made the." (32:11)

The authenticity was crucial, with realistic props and choreography to ensure the scene's believability and shock value.

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Production Insights and HBO’s Bold Storytelling

Francesca Orsi on Audacious Storytelling

Francesca Orsi, who oversees drama series at HBO, praises Mike White’s fearless approach:

"There's a fearlessness in Mike and what he always, you know, proposes and what he writes and what it is that he's delivering. Never once on White Lotus have we ever challenged these audacious scenes." (30:34)

She underscores that such bold scenes are only included when they are deeply rooted in character development and psychological depth, ensuring they feel earned and integral to the narrative.

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Personal Reflections and Emotional Resonance

Both actors reflect on their most significant moments tied to their characters.

Sabrina’s Deep Emotional Connection

Sabrina recounts an intense emotional scene that transcended her understanding of herself:

"I was Valentina. I was not Sabrina. I was Valentina." (37:27)

This moment of complete immersion left a lasting impression, highlighting the profound impact of the role on her personal and professional life.

Murray’s Anchor Moments

Murray identifies key memories that define his character’s struggles and resilience:

"He's overwhelmed by all this, like, obnoxiousness and all the kind of the insanity of the world around him and trying to resist his escape hatch." (39:44)

He speaks to the quiet, introspective moments that reveal Armand’s inner turmoil, as well as the high-energy scenes that showcase his character’s complexity.

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Final Thoughts and Future Episodes

As the episode wraps up, Murray and Sabrina highlight the intricate process of creating unforgettable moments on screen, emphasizing the collaborative spirit fostered by Mike White. They express gratitude for the opportunity to explore such deep and challenging roles, leaving listeners eagerly anticipating future episodes of the podcast.

Hosts Jia Tolentino and Josh Bearman conclude by hinting at the next episode’s focus on Season 2, exploring its major themes of sex and romance, promising more in-depth analyses and exclusive insights.

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Notable Quotes:

• Murray Bartlett (00:59): "It's a Japanese ethos where we are asked to disappear behind our masks as pleasant, interchangeable helpers."

• Sabrina Impacciatore (10:25): "I did two auditions, and then no one said nothing for weeks."

• Dan Savage (26:34): "I recommend it to straight people all the time who are thinking about experimenting with anal sex as foreplay."

• Francesca Orsi (30:34): "If it's rooted in character, we're good. If it's rooted in psychology, we're good."

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This episode offers a rich exploration of the characters’ depths, the actors’ transformative journeys, and the bold storytelling that defines The White Lotus. Whether you're a longtime fan or new to the series, this podcast provides invaluable insights into the making of one of television’s most compelling dramas.

Transcript

[Evan Ross Katz]

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[Murray Bartlett]

Look, Lanny, I know it's your first day on the job, and I don't know how it worked at your other properties, but here, self disclosure is discouraged, especially with these VIPs who arrive on the boat. You know, you don't want to be too specific as a presence, as an identity. You want to be more generic.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Generic, yes.

[Murray Bartlett]

It's a Japanese ethos where we are asked to disappear behind our masks as pleasant, interchangeable helpers. It's tropical kabuki. And the goal is to create for the guests an overall impression of vagueness that can be very satisfying, where they get everything they want, but they don't even know what they want or what day it is or where they are or people who we are or what the fuck is going on.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to HBO's official White Lotus Podcast. I'm your host, Evan Ross Katz. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by two actors I absolutely adore, Murray Bartlett and Sabrina Impacciatore. They brought to life two unforgettable White Lotus managers over the course of two seasons. Armand and Valentina, who, despite being worlds apart in personality, share strikingly similar roles within the White Lotus averse.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

I am Valentina, the Race Awards manager. I mean, I'm impressed that you're even here.

[Murray Bartlett]

Why are you impressed?

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

It's a long trip from Los Angeles and you're quite old, no.

[Evan Ross Katz]

In this episode, the three of us will dive into the parallels between their characters. Not only do Armand and Valentina hold the same job title, they're both gay characters bending over backwards to accommodate a revolving door of mostly straight hotel guests.

[Dan Savage]

So many gay people work in service professions where you have to be obsequious, deferential, kind. You have to slap a smile on your face.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Dan Savage is a sex and relationships advice columnist and podcaster. For decades, he's offered advice about sex and romance in his column, Savage Love.

[Dan Savage]

So many gay people negotiate, really a straight world where we have to be not always on our best behavior, as Armand is definitely not. But we always have to be smiling at the faces of the Straight people who are sometimes making us utterly fucking miserable because they have the power and they outnumber us. And so there's that. I don't want to say two facedness of Armand, but the way he copes and navigates is, I think, very familiar to gay people, particularly from the earlier parts of our lives when we haven't been able to assemble our own friend groups. We haven't been able to self select out of being completely surrounded by straight people all the time.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Now settle in for Sabrina and Murray's perspectives.

[Unknown]

And just so you're all aware, there is some discussion of sexually explicit topics in this one. So consider this a content warning.

[Murray Bartlett]

Sabrina. Sabrina, you look good. Gorgeous. You always look good. Just. You do too. You do too.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Please, please.

[Murray Bartlett]

I get to see you less, Sabrina. And it's such a joy seeing you. And you look radiant.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

Now, can you show Marie your heels though?

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Because I feel like. Look.

[Murray Bartlett]

Oh. Oh my God.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Yeah, not bad. And I can. I can run in this, you know, I love them. Like I really love. I could lick them for how much I love it.

[Unknown]

I get it.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Because they are all like smooth and amazing. I love them.

[Unknown]

How did the two of you first.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Meet in real life? Because in imagination, I met him a year before. I was dreaming about him. He was haunting me because I felt so much pressure to fit in his huge shoes. To me, I felt like I could never ever be able to not make people to regret him, you know? So I didn't sleep for many weeks with the idea. Yes, Mari, you didn't know that? Yes.

[Murray Bartlett]

No, I didn't know that. No. Yes.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Yes. Because when I saw your performance, alora me, I don't feel hierarchy about power. To me, the hierarchy is about talent. And so I feel in awe about big talent. When I see a genius actor, I feel in awe. So when I see him performing in that brilliant, unforgettable way. Because really, I saw the series once and I never forgot anymore his performance. And that's why I was so scared. I was terrified. I felt so much pressure. I cried also, I have to say, I have to confess, I cried for you, Marguerite. So then that's why when I met you, it was meeting a dream, meeting someone that you've been thinking about so much. And then when you finally meet him, it's Pam. It's an explosion. That's why really, I remember that I saw him at that party. I didn't expect him to be there. And I saw him and I remember that I started to run, run to him, like. And then, yes, we jumped. We hug each other like this. I remember very well because to me it was like, oh, my God, me too.

[Murray Bartlett]

I feel like. I feel like we shared that energy and we, from my memory, we kind of flung ourselves at each other, which seemed kind of fitting. I don't know, there was just perhaps a shared joy in what we'd both been through individually.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

And it was really, really a big emotion for me and Murray.

[Unknown]

Surely your dreams were being haunted by Sabrina as well. Was that the case?

[Murray Bartlett]

Well, I guess I kind of had this sort of inverse experience, really. I mean, first of all. Well, let's start inversely. I guess that when we met, it felt like we knew each other even though we'd never met. I mean, not just because we watched each other and sort of got to know each other, but we took a special interest in each other. I think without knowing that we were. Without individually knowing that the other was doing this, but because we shared that kind of experience. Even though they manifested in different ways, they were different characters, but there was a lot that they had in common. And so there was this kind of incredible shared experience that, that we had a very kind of bizarre and unique. Which made it made me feel like I knew you very well and felt a great deal of affection and kind of understanding of what you've been through or something.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Oh, yes.

[Murray Bartlett]

It's kind of. It's kind of odd, but it was interesting. But I guess, yeah, I guess my inverse experience is that I had none of the stress of watching. I had all the joy of watching you. I thought you were extraordinary in the show and my job was already done, so I could just lose myself in what you were doing. But also because I, you know, I watched the show, I'm not great at watching myself in things I don't think many of us are. I mean, I did watch and enjoy the first season, especially watching everyone else, and Mike did such an amazing job. So there was a lot of joy in watching it. But watching you in the position that I played in the show gave me a sort of, I don't know, I got a perspective on my performance through you, I guess. Oh, interesting. Because I got to see the, you know, the hotel manager that I was playing just sort of in a different form. Watching you was just sort of joyful and nerve wracking in the same way that playing Armand was kind of nerve wracking for me. Just sort of feeling all the things that you were feeling. But I guess all that to say, say that when we met There was this kind of rich history that we had together without having ever met. It's so. It's such a bizarre thing, right? I mean, it was true. So it was. It was very lovely and felt like family, you know? You know?

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Yes, exactly.

[Unknown]

I'd love to hear from both of you about first receiving the offer to be on the show, finding out you're going to play this character, and obviously, we know the character. Having seen you both bring them to life, but before they were brought to life, when they existed only on the page, what were your initial reactions?

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Well, me, I was almost having a stroke. Yeah. Yes. No, literally, I did two auditions, and then no one said nothing for weeks. So I didn't know what was going to happen. And I was trying not to think about it. So I remember this struggle about how can I not think about this audition that I did? And so, in fact, that day I was trying to kill my thoughts, and it was a Saturday, and I went inside to watch a show, because when I watch a show, I lose myself and I don't think about anything else, and I forget about real life. And so I was inside the theater and the show was on, and I saw my phone that was vibrating. And I felt this must be an important call because the phone vibrates in a different way. And so I had to say to people like, hey, excuse me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I have to go. It was like, I didn't want to disturb the actors on the st. So I'm sorry.

[Evan Ross Katz]

I'm sorry.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

And I was literally walking on the. On the. On, you know, on the seats like this. Really? I was, like, walking on people. And then. And then I went out of the theater and there were my two Italian agents on a video call, and they told me this unbelievable news. And I started to cry and laugh and scream, and I still was in the theater. I was in the foyer. So there were people that looked at me, and I couldn't stop crying and screaming. It's. Oh, my gosh. I will never forget that moment. Never, ever in my life. Forever. Forever. Yes.

[Unknown]

What about for you, Marie?

[Murray Bartlett]

Oh, my God. Well, it was weird because we were completely locked down. I did my audition in my garage, and I did one audition with my Australian accent, and I did it American because I usually audition with an American accent. And I was at dinner, and again, like, my phone rang twice. I think it was a different vibration. There was something. There was something about the vibration. I was like, this seems like it's important. And I'd only Read the first script, which I think was probably good, because once I found out what was ahead of me and what this character went through, I was equally, like, thrilled and excited and terrified. Which is what usually happens when you get a job. You know, you're like, oh, my God, I want this job. And then you get it, and you're like, oh, shit, now I gotta do it. But the phone call came and it was my agent, and they told me, and I was like, great. This seems so weird because we're in a pandemic and now I'm going to Hawaii. And I love Mike White, and it sounds like there's great people in the cast, but I didn't really know who. I knew very little. And then Mike called me the next day and he was like, you know, I'm so happy that you're doing the job, and blah, blah, blah. So you've read all the scripts, right? And I was like, no, no, I've read the first script. He's like. There was a pause and he was like, oh, oh, well, we better get you those scripts. So I read the scripts on the way over to Hawaii, and then I was, you know, like, so excited, but also like, oh, my God, this is an incredible role, which I, you know, I'm so lucky and thrilled to play, but also, like, terrified, you know, because you, like, you want to do it justice. It's so such, you know, Sabrina, like, well, I don't know what it was like in the second season. I imagine it was similar. I mean, we played and we, you know, we ad libbed sometimes, but the script was so amazing, so specific, so detailed. Pretty much everything that you see or what I did anyway, is written. So it was extraordinary to have that handed in your lap. And then the first night we arrived and we were gathering, it must have been the first night that we all came out of quarantine and we all met at this big table, the empty Four Seasons Hotel in Hawaii. And Jennifer Coolidge came late as only Jennifer Coolidge can in the coolest, most amazing way. And she was like. She looked at me and she was like, you. You get to play the role that I wanted to play. And I was like, oh.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Oh, this is so much fun.

[Murray Bartlett]

Coolidge wanted this role. Like, no pressure. So it was like. It was sort of a slow unfolding of me realizing that I. That I had the role and what the job was and that it was actually real. It was such a surreal. It was such a surreal experience anyway, but also in, you know, in the midst of a Pandemic and all of that. It was just. It was a strange and wonderful thing.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Yes.

[Unknown]

It's also a strange and wonderful thing, imagining Jennifer Coolidge as Armand.

[Murray Bartlett]

Right.

[Unknown]

I mean, a mind fuck.

[Murray Bartlett]

It would be kind of incredible.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I'd like to see that.

[Murray Bartlett]

That sort of went through my head. I was like, maybe you should be playing this.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I can see it.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

But it's funny. Just. Just. Sorry. It's funny that he said, I had a strong idea about the character, while me, it was totally the opposite. I didn't have an idea because this character was not totally described as your character in the first season. So I had, like, only few scenes. No, when you have only few scenes, the script was so brilliant, but at the same time, I think that Mike hadn't already defined totally this character. Totally. So I was feeling very, very lost at the beginning. Like, lost. And I was scared because of Murray. And so I remember the first days as a nightmare because I didn't know how to play this character. And actually, day two, I had to play a scene with Jennifer and with John Grice. And I was so intimidated. In this scene, I was supposed to interrupt them. They were fighting, they were having a discussion, and I was supposed to interrupt them. And for the first two takes, I didn't interrupt them because I was too much intimidated. So the idea. After two takes, she came to me, she said, sabrina, you are supposed to talk in this scene. I said, oh, I'm so sorry. I don't want to disturb, you know, really. So can you imagine? That's how everything started. And so I just followed Mike's indications for the first days. And he told me this sentence that was, the more she's bitchy, the more she's funny. And Mia was having a big trouble being bitchy with Jennifer because I was too intimidated. And I just wanted to jump on my knees in front of her, you know, like, I love her so much. I can't. I can't be mean. And exactly. In that day, that's the moment where the Peppa Pig line came out, because I was so desperate. That had to be bitchy. And that's what my brain saved me in this moment. And from that moment, like, something made a click inside of me and I got the character there. In that moment, I understood, okay, because Mike was so happy about that. When I saw him so happy, I felt, okay, this is the direction. And then actually, this character came out day by day. It was such a journey of discovery with Mike. That's why Mike became so meaningful to Me. Because this was a journey that surprised me very, very deeply. Very, very deeply in a very deep, emotional way. And, yes, I understood the character at the end. I think.

[Unknown]

I think it's fair to say.

[Murray Bartlett]

I think that. Well, I know that you're not alone in that, because I felt the same thing. And I know some of the other actors in the first season felt that as well. I mean, we wondered whether it was. Because we just hadn't. You know, it was the pandemic. And so we hadn't. There was no rehearsal, and we hadn't met Mike before. A lot of us hadn't. The first week, I was terrified. And there was a couple of nights where I was like, oh, my God, this is a nightmare. I don't know what I'm doing. And I think. I mean, first of all, I think that that's kind of like. I don't want to say healthy, but I think that we all go through that to a certain extent at the beginning of a job. Like, you're still figuring it out. You can figure it all out in your head or in rehearsal, whatever. But when you get to actually do. Takes a little while sometimes for it to reveal itself to you. And on my first scene, we did that scene. It was like working with David Fincher. We did it I don't know how many times, but, like, it felt like 30 takes. And each take, Mike just kept getting me to do different things. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm not getting what he wants. This is like, I just. Like, he hates what I'm doing. Like, I'm not getting it. And then I came. We'd finished, and then I came off set or to the side of the set, and one of the other actors was there, and I was like, man, that was really intense. Like, really tough. And he was like, yeah, no, he's did that to me, too. Like, I think he's just sort of getting to know us. Like, he wanted to see what. Who are you in this character? You know? And what is this? And actually, we shot a couple of scenes, and then we reshot them. Cause he rewrote some of the stuff around what we were doing. Like, it. I think he. You know, he. And I think it's such a beautiful thing. And it's easy as an actor to be intimidated by that. Cause you think, you know, I'm getting it wrong. And as we know, there is no wrong. It's just, you know, you're just figuring out who you are in the character. And Mike leaves space for that I mean, the script didn't really change much after those first couple of scenes at all. But he adjusts to what you're bringing to it. And it's such a beautiful thing, I think. But it is a little terrifying in the beginning because everyone's finding it and you're sort of finding it with him. And then you keep finding it with him. But it become, from my experience anyway, after that first week of terror, it was incredibly fun. And he said one thing to us the night before we started shooting, that it was really important to him that everyone had fun. And we were like, yeah, yeah, everyone said that, but that's so important to him that everyone has fun. And it was, you know, I mean, that's sort of one of the secrets I think of. Of any kind of acting is. Is once you get over, once you can push through your self consciousness and your fear of, like, humiliating yourself or whatever, and you can just have fun with it. That's the best place to be, I think. And. And Mike allows you to do that if you're willing to leave into it with him, you know, that's such a beautiful thing.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Oh, my gosh.

[Unknown]

It's so interesting that you both had these sort of breakthrough moments in the role. It sounds like you both were feeling intimidated, you know, unsure of the decisions that you were making. And then through doing the work, you found the character. So I think it's just so interesting. There are all these parallels between you both as these characters, but also it sounds like these actors, which makes us being all in conversation together all the more enriching. I want to get into some specific scenes with each of your characters.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Murray.

[Unknown]

There's a scene that stays burned in my brain and the brains of many fans of the show.

[Murray Bartlett]

I wonder what that might be. Listen, I'm obsessed with you. I want to get you naked. What do I got to do? You have tomorrow off. I'll give you whatever shifts you want. Let's party tonight.

[Unknown]

It's a scene that takes place midway through the series. It's between your character and Lucas Gage's character. It takes place in an office. There might be some ass eating.

[Murray Bartlett]

Yeah, I mean, it wasn't written specifically that. That was what happened. In the scene before we started shooting, I had a 45 minute meeting with Mike. That was the only time that we had really to talk about stuff. And that whole meeting was really about him saying, you know, I don't want you to feel uncomfortable about any of the stuff that we're doing. Like, there's a few Scenes where there's some obviously confronting things or whatever. And so. But we never really got into specifics. So from my memory, he sort of left it up to Lucas and I to figure out what we felt comfortable with. And so Lucas and I came up with this idea of like, oh, my God, what if we did that? And so we went to Mike and said, we think this should be like an ass eating thing. And he was like. He paused and then he went, can we do that? And we were like, we think so. We're up for it. So, you know, I mean, you know, those scenes, when you actually do those scenes, you're like, oh, my God, why did we decide to do this? Because it is kind of confronting. And it was, you know, the reason why we chose that is because we're being caught. And we were trying to think of what would be for those characters that catch us.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Yes.

[Murray Bartlett]

What would be the most shocking thing for them to see. And that seemed like that would be it. So, you know, most shocking, most confronting for them.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

You see the genius actor.

[Murray Bartlett]

No genius actor, but I was. I was surprised, I guess, that I was surprised that there was a big reaction. We kind of hadn't thought about it. We were like, this will be funny. It's also like a great shocking moment. Like, it's definitely memorable, but, like, we didn't realize that it would become a.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

How memorable?

[Murray Bartlett]

Or that, you know, that would really, like, stand out as a moment in the way that it did, I guess.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Now I'm going to break from the Murray and Sabrina interview for just a moment to talk to a few others about this famous scene. First up is Dan Savage, who you heard from the top of the episode. He's a sex and relationship columnist and a podcaster. So it's not infrequent that analingus will come up as a topic in his work.

[Dan Savage]

Well, it's interesting that a lot of straight people freaked out about it as much as they seem to do, because there was another show on hbo, Girls that pioneered or already showed us what analingus looks like. And again, we see the older person about to eat the younger person's ass, which is. As a gay man. I was like, okay, that's usually foreplay for anal sex. Usually, particularly among adult gay men with access to showers. It's usually what comes first before anal. So it wasn't. As a gay man. I wasn't flabbergasted that one might be eating the other's ass. I was like, this is the progression. This is the beginning of the Ass play. And it was interesting. I actually saw that episode with a straight friend who got a little uncomfortable about it. And I had to. I was just like, how could you read me? You'd see how often analingus comes up. And I recommend it to straight people all the time who are thinking about experimenting with anal sex as foreplay.

[Evan Ross Katz]

I did get a chance to talk to Lucas Gage about the scene. He didn't know Marie personally before their storyline on the White Lotus, but like many, he knew his work.

[G]

I mean, the most familiar I was with him was Sex and the City. To be honest, that character was seared in my DNA. And you know, I had recognized him from various shows, obviously looking and I just. He always stood out to me as like such an amazing actor. But I knew him best from the Sex and the City episode.

[Murray Bartlett]

That afternoon, I was high on another feel good drug. The new gay friend. Could you be more fantastic? And they say you can't meet men in bars. Well, that was true for me last night. I went to trade, hoping to meet someone new, but just a shag. So I've got a boyfriend in Sydney and the only person I met was you. Not that I'm disappointed. And your boyfriend doesn't mind if you date other men? Not date, have sex with. Oh, right, right. The international gay rules. Absolutely. Blowjobs only, no last names. The gym is a free space. And never ever show up at the same place wearing the same shirt. Then I just crossed over into a whole other set of rules.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Lucas tells me he was just as surprised as Murray that their sex scene went so viral.

[G]

Up until 10 minutes before we called action. It was an anal sex scene. That was a thing that me and Murray had come up with on the spot of let's make it ass eating rather than just a normal anal sex. Like let's. I think it's more interesting and I think it's more shocking if you were to open a door and see that in a way. But that being said, I did not think it was going to. To blow up like that on the Internet. And I think, I mean, it's great, it's cool. It felt like, you know, you want to have those iconic moments and those memorable scenes and leave a stamp on the show. But I truly, it was like such a spur of the moment decision, like we're about to. And then me and Murray and Mike are just discussing really quick, like, what can we do that's even more funny or more. More interesting and more shocking? But Mike is constantly open and collaborating on the Day. So if it's kind of like, best idea wins. And I think that's a really a sign of a good director and a good writer, a good actor, if they're able to not be married to their ideas and be able to kind of shape shift into whatever's fresh and. And alive in the moment.

[Unknown]

Finally, we talked about the scene with.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Francesca Orsi, who runs drama series and films at hbo. Now, HBO had aired an analingus scene in the past, but the White Lotus scene was still quite audacious.

[H]

There have been, over the course of various shows, I'd say, and experiences and scripts and that we will debate on whether something might be too risque or, you know, maybe inappropriate. There's a fearlessness in Mike and what he always, you know, proposes and what. How he writes and what it is that he's delivering. Never once on White Lotus have we ever challenged these audacious scenes. If anything, they made us blush, they made us gasp, but they made us feel gleeful, and they made us burst out loud with laughter. So more go for it. If it's rooted in character, we're good. If it's rooted in psychology, we're good. And you know what? It always feels earned and sign us up for more.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Now back to the Sabrina Murray interview.

[Unknown]

Keeping on theme of the ass. Another memorable scene of yours takes place in the season finale of the show.

[Murray Bartlett]

Oh.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Oh, fuck.

[Murray Bartlett]

Yeah. I'm in the Pineapple Suite and there's a fucking turd in my room.

[Unknown]

Somebody got in here and took a shit.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Not in the toilet, in my luggage, on my clothes.

[Murray Bartlett]

What the fuck?

[Unknown]

Can you talk about your reaction to learning that your character would not only be shitting in the suitcase, but that we would be seeing this act play out on screen? I think it's very different to imagine it versus to see the way it was realized on the show.

[Murray Bartlett]

Right? Yeah. I mean, you know, rewind back to when I was flying to Hawaii, having not read any of the scripts and getting to that point and being like, I what? I'm going to be the guy that, like, shits in a suitcase on tv. Okay. You know, I love Mike White so much, and I. I had been a fan of him for years, so I just, you know, like, I mean, I can't say there weren't moments where I was like, oh, my God, that is, like, kind of confronting, or how is that gonna play out? But, like, I just thought it was brilliant. I mean, I got lucky because we were supposed to shoot that scene at a certain point a couple of Weeks before, when we were supposed to shoot it, something happened. I think someone got like a, you know, a false positive, but they were not allowed to work. They brought that scene up and we were like, I was dressed for another scene. Suddenly we were doing that scene, which was kind of great because then I was like, okay, let's go. But, yeah, it was painstakingly detailed and precise in the way that we shot it. We did all different angles. I had like a five minute conversation with the props guy about the, like, what he made the. The. Like, the. The shit out of. And like, it. It was like. Which was extraordinary.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Yeah. What was that?

[Murray Bartlett]

It was like all, like a few different chocolate bars and like, I think peanut butter or I don't know, like a whole bunch of stuff. It was. It was very, very specific. And he was like. He was so awesome, and it looked amazing. And then, you know, so we did all this stuff. Luckily, I have really strong quads because I was Scott squatting over that suitcase for a long time. And then, you know, I think right at the end, we shot the wide shot, and Mike was like, we're just gonna get the wide shot. Like, we're never gonna use it, but, like, you know, so the. The. The day of. I think that that. Or maybe the day before that episode aired, Mike called me, like, sounding really anxious, like, you've seen this episode, right? You've seen it. I was like, yeah. And he said, well, you know, like, because I told you that we weren't gonna use that wide shot, but, like, it was just the best shot. And I just. I hope you're not upset. And I mean, it's like, it's an amazing. Right. It's an amazing shot. And of course, it's like the one that you use, and it's so incredibly graphic, which they didn't. I think they. They probably did use the. The actual practical stuff that we had there. But a lot of it, I think, was done in post. But, yeah, it was. It was. It was an extraordinarily long and detailed shooting of that scene that ended up in that one wide shot that was, you know, kind of brilliant.

[Unknown]

Speaking of viral moments, Sabrina, on Season two, I recall one of the first big viral moments was this Peppa Pig moment that we spoke of earlier.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Yes.

[Unknown]

You know, you talked about getting to that place, but I'm wondering what it was like for you, seeing the reaction to that scene online. I feel like that was a big moment for viewers in establishing the fact that this show that you loved the first time out, you're gonna love it again this time.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Alora. First I would like to say about the reaction on set because I said Peppa Pig. And then right away I felt they are going to fire me right now because. Because I said something that was very offensive somehow. And so then the take finished and no one was saying a word. Like, I mean, I felt, oh, my God. I have to explain. Who is Peppa Pig? I didn't say that Jennifer is a pig. This is a cartoon. So I went to run. I ran away to get my phone and I looked for a major Peppa Pig and I went to one of the producers and they said, hey, look, look, look. This is the cartoon I'm not saying bad things about. Really. I remember that. That moment I was sure to be fired. Can you imagine? I was so scared. But then I look at Jennifer and Jennifer could not stop laughing. He was like. She was laughing like this, like a child. And then John Grice came to me and she said, you made Jennifer laugh. That's very rare. She's going to love you for life. That's what he's told me. And I will never forget that moment.

[Murray Bartlett]

Hey.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Yes, hello.

[Murray Bartlett]

Hi.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Yeah. Could you take a photo of us? Yes. On the Vespa, for sure. You look so pink. Guess who I am. What? What? Peppa Pig. I'm Monica Vitti. Monica Vitti is dead. But, yes.

[Unknown]

When you think about both of your characters, is there a single image that stands out as a memory or like a significant snapshot of the character for you?

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

I don't have the image. I have the deep, deep memory of what I felt. I think that the highest feeling that I felt while I was playing that role was in a scene at the bar when Mia invites me to the room. I will always remember that moment. I don't know who that person was. It was not me. I think it was a parallel life where I really, really felt that struggle. I really felt it inside my bones, inside my veins, everything. It's like I was Valentina. I was Valentina. I was not Sabrina. I was Valentina. I will never forget that. To be honest, that was, I think, the first time in my life I felt something like that. And I remember that after that moment, after that scene, I literally jumped on him. Like, I jumped physically on him. Like I. I was a monkey. I was a monkey around him. And I was grabbing him and I was crying and I said, mike, I love you. I love you, my cutiamo. I love you, Mike. I love you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And he said, don't thank me. You just did it. You yourself. I thought I was someone else somewhere else. In another time, in another space, in another heart, in another body, in another brain. Thank to him. He allowed me to go in this mysterious place. And now I'm back and I have to thank him. So that's the image that I have. It's an emotional image. It's not a picture.

[Unknown]

What about for you, Marie?

[Murray Bartlett]

There's one where I'm in my office and I found the girl's drugs. And I'm just looking at the drugs and wondering if I can control myself. Because I think that's a huge thing for the character. Is definitely, like, a kind of an anchor point for me of, like, this. He's overwhelmed by all this, like, obnoxiousness and all the kind of the insanity of the world around him and trying to resist his escape hatch. You know, being his potential addiction to. Or, you know, lapsing into his addiction with those. With those things. And I think what I love about that moment is it's quiet and he's not moving. And it's just him by himself. And when he's by himself, sometimes, at least, it's kind of dark and sad. And the other moment that springs to mind, which is more of a sequence, really, is being completely high during the dinner service where it's just like.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

That film is unforgettable.

[Murray Bartlett]

It's so sort of. Because it's connected to that first image, because it's. That's what happens when he, like, really leans into that. And it's equally sad and also just, like, ecstatic, you know, like. Because it's. Because he's taken a bunch of drugs and he's running away. But it's also like he's in ecstasy and he's feeling, like, what he wants to feel without the drugs as well, I guess, you know, or maybe, you know, without the drugs at all. But I. And interestingly, that second, that scene, Mike being the person who just makes you. Sets the atmosphere so that you can be your best and kind of sink into what you're doing. Played the music that you hear in the show when I'm doing the dinner service, like, incredibly loudly so that I could just. And we sorted out this choreography with the camera. I mean, it went a lot longer than what you see. It's like. It was this incredible dance that we did. And it was. And that was the experience that I had with losing myself.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

You were so lucky. I'm so jealous.

[Unknown]

It was so release, these messages that.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Would be such an incredible, amazing.

[Unknown]

Thank you both so much. And thank you for creating an atmosphere in which we all felt like we were all getting to speak with one another.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

But it's you, because my God, you created this atmosphere. The questions were so radical, we couldn't stop talking.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Well, that's that. An iconic meeting of the White Lotus managers minds. Two brilliant actors and indelible characters, Armand and Valentina, forever. Next time on the White Lotus Podcast, we will be delving into season two through the lens of its major themes, sex and romance.

Some people will say to me like, oh, I felt so bad for her. Then it's like, no. Why?

[Murray Bartlett]

She was playing the game the whole.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Time, just energetically, like enjoying the game.

[Dan Savage]

Harper and Ethan being very superior about the fact that they never lie to each other. But then there's no gulf to bridge. Then there's no mystery. There's no eroticism in their relationship. They're not fucking.

[Murray Bartlett]

He just looked at me. He just watched and listened. And then he was like, oh, I'm.

[Evan Ross Katz]

Sorry, I thought you were. I thought you were like doing a bit as Portia.

[Murray Bartlett]

I was like.

[Sabrina Impacciatore]

Whoa.

[Murray Bartlett]

Like, it just hit really deep. Because then that's when I realized, like, whoa, am I Portia?

[Evan Ross Katz]

The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by me, Evan Ross Katz, and produced by Natalia Winkelman. Our associate producer is Aaliyah Papes. Fact checking by Gray Lanta at Campside Media. Our executive producer is Josh Dean. Sound design and mix by Bart Warshaw at Cocoon Audio. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen Siroch and Kenya Reyes from the HBO Podcast team. Thank you for listening and I'll see you next time.

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