Episode 4: Sex and Sicily with Guest Dan Savage

Summary

The White Lotus Official Podcast - Episode 4: Sex and Sicily with Guest Dan Savage

Introduction

In Episode 4 of The White Lotus Official Podcast, hosted by Evan Ross Katz and featuring guest Dan Savage, the discussion delves deep into the intricate themes of sex, romance, and relationship dynamics portrayed in The White Lotus Season 2. Released on January 30, 2025, this episode offers listeners an insightful breakdown of the show's exploration of human connections, infidelity, and the complexities of long-term relationships set against the picturesque backdrop of Sicily.

Overview of Season 2 Themes

Dan Savage opens the conversation by highlighting the shift in thematic focus from Season 1 to Season 2. While the first season tackled race and class through the lens of colonialism's lingering effects, Season 2 pivots to examine sexual and romantic politics within the traditional and machismo-driven environment of Sicily.

Dan Savage [01:22]: "Sex and romance. Obviously, relationships are at the heart of both seasons. The desire to explore human connection is basically woven into Mike White's DNA."

The Sicilian setting is praised for its cinematic allure and its role as a character in itself, embodying both beauty and traditional gender roles that influence the narrative.

Dan Savage [02:18]: "But the island can also be seen as a repository of machismo and traditional gender roles."

Character Dynamics: The Foursome (Harper, Ethan, Daphne, Cameron)

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the central characters Harper, Ethan, Daphne, and Cameron. Dan Savage commends the actors for portraying the evolving dynamics that reflect contemporary anxieties about love and desire.

Dan Savage [04:41]: "The foursome Harper, Ethan, Daphne, and Cameron. As the season unfolds, their dynamic becomes a stage on which Mike White can play out contemporary ideas and anxieties about love and sex."

The Debated Beach Scene

One of the most intense discussions revolves around the highly debated scene between Daphne and Ethan on the beach. The ambiguity surrounding their encounter has sparked various interpretations among viewers.

Michael Imperioli [18:06]: "They fucked. Yeah, they fucked. There's no ambiguity there."

Dan Savage and Michael Imperioli explore the implications of this scene, debating whether it signifies redemption or the downfall of the characters' relationships.

Dan Savage [18:15]: "Any uncertainty viewers have about what went down on the island actually says more about us than it does about the show."

The Degrasso Family Subplot

The episode also examines the Degrasso family's storyline, portraying a generational transmission of toxic masculinity. Michael Imperioli discusses how Dominic Degrasso's character serves as a foil to other couples, highlighting the consequences of unchecked male toxicity.

Michael Imperioli [23:38]: "This storyline is talking about the transmission of a kind of toxic masculinity from generation to generation and how that kind of male toxicity can be passed on."

Themes of Toxic Masculinity and Relationship Dynamics

The podcast delves into how The White Lotus Season 2 portrays different facets of masculinity and their impact on relationships. The contrasting relationships—Harper and Ethan's seemingly transparent but strained bond versus Daphne and Cameron's complex toying with desire—offer a rich ground for analysis.

Michael Imperioli [13:04]: "Harper and Ethan's relationship... are doing something right... maintaining their sense of individuality."

Actor Insights and Behind-the-Scenes

Evan Ross Katz engages with actors Megan Fahey (Daphne), Will Sharpe (Ethan), Theo James (Cameron), Adam DiMarco (Alby), and Michael Imperioli (Dominic) to gain deeper insights into their characters' arcs and the show's production nuances.

Megan Fahey [07:04]: "Megan Fahey doesn't really need an introduction. She's got one of the most memorable roles in season two and easily became one of its breakout stars in the show."

The actors share their experiences, challenges, and intentions behind their character portrayals, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of the show's depth.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Dan Savage and the hosts reflect on the overarching messages of The White Lotus Season 2. They emphasize the show's ability to present complex relationship dilemmas without dictating viewer interpretations, allowing audiences to engage with the narrative on a personal level.

Will Sharpe [17:51]: "I think I'm kind of like. I don't even want to say what it is because I feel like it should belong to everyone in that way."

The episode concludes with a teaser for the next installment, promising further exploration of beloved characters and their intricate relationships.

Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• Dan Savage [01:22]: "Sex and romance. Obviously, relationships are at the heart of both seasons."
• Michael Imperioli [18:06]: "They fucked. Yeah, they fucked. There's no ambiguity there."
• Megan Fahey [07:04]: "She's got one of the most memorable roles in season two."
• Michael Imperioli [13:04]: "Harper and Ethan's relationship... are doing something right..."

Final Thoughts

Episode 4 of The White Lotus Official Podcast provides a comprehensive and engaging analysis of the show's second season, enriching the viewer's understanding of its complex themes and character dynamics. Through insightful discussions and expert guest contributions, listeners gain a deeper appreciation of Mike White's storytelling prowess and the nuanced performances of the cast.

Transcript

[Evan Ross Katz]

The official White Lotus Podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch. Every five star getaway needs a five star wardrobe, preferably without the drama. Abercrombie and Fitch's long weekend collection has you covered. Discover versatile Miele dresses, classic skirts, and the refined A and F Collins suit. Easily styled for dressy or laid back. Looks perfect for any moment on your itinerary. Your vacation starts now. Use Lotus 15 to get an extra 15% off almost everything at checkout code. Valid in the US and Canada through April 13th. Exclusions apply. See site for details. Pack wisely with Abercrombie and Fitch.

[Will Sharpe]

Ethan, come here. Sit down.

[Theo James]

Hey.

[Will Sharpe]

Hi. You okay? You haven't really seemed like yourself the past couple days. Work stuff. What is it?

[Megan Fahey]

You wanna.

[Dan Savage]

Yeah, I think.

[Will Sharpe]

You think?

[Evan Ross Katz]

What?

[Megan Fahey]

Cameron and Harper.

[Will Sharpe]

Cameron and Harper won.

[Megan Fahey]

Maybe something happened.

[Dan Savage]

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to HBO's official White Lotus Podcast. I'm Evan Ross Katz. Today we're diving into some core themes of the White Lotus. Sex and romance. Obviously, relationships are at the heart of both seasons. The desire to explore human connection is basically woven into Mike White's DNA. But many see sexual and romantic politics as being particularly central to season two. And while the first season tackled race and class partly by examining the lingering effects of colonialism, the second season shifts our focus by taking us somewhere different.

[Michael Imperioli]

Cheers. We made it.

[Dan Savage]

Welcome to the White Lotus in Sicily. It's fitting that Mike White sets season two in Sicily. On the one hand, Sicily brims with cinematic history. It's a major reason why it's captured the imagination of so many American tourists.

[Will Sharpe]

You made my Italian dream come true.

[Dan Savage]

I feel like Monica Vitti.

[Will Sharpe]

I really do.

[Dan Savage]

But the island can also be seen as a repository of machismo and traditional gender roles.

[Megan Fahey]

Hey, what is with these head things?

[Dan Savage]

We keep seeing them everywhere.

[Megan Fahey]

Tessa Di Moro. Tessa Di Moro. Well, the story is, Emur came here.

[Dan Savage]

A long time ago and seduced a local girl.

[Megan Fahey]

But then she found out that he.

[Dan Savage]

Had a wife and children back home.

[Megan Fahey]

So because he lied to her, she cut his head off.

[Dan Savage]

Oh, Jesus. It's the perfect setting for Mike White to explore some of the issues he does best. Seduction desire, suspicion, and betrayal.

[Megan Fahey]

Stop flirting with my wife. I'm not a fool.

[Michael Imperioli]

Dude, are you being serious?

[Megan Fahey]

I know what you're doing, man.

[Michael Imperioli]

Are you losing it?

[Dan Savage]

There's obviously a lot to untangle here, and I can't do that all by myself. So I called up an expert to help me out.

[Michael Imperioli]

I loved the first season, of course, but it was really the second season that knocked me flat.

[Dan Savage]

Dan Savage is a sex and relationships advice columnist and podcaster, and he, like me, loves the white Lotus.

[Michael Imperioli]

There were things in the second season that really are in my wheelhouse about long term relationships, about desire in long term relationships, about infidelity, about forgiveness. And, you know, in one way it's like, oh, my God, these are the straight people I write to and talk to all the time. And then I had to step back and go, and Mike White created them.

[Dan Savage]

What Dan's alluding to here is that Mike, like Dan, doesn't identify as straight. And yet, like Dan, he's still a keen observer of straight relationships.

[Michael Imperioli]

You know, sometimes you write a sex advice column, you talk to straight people about sex. Every once in a while you get somebody saying, what do you know about straight people or straight sex or straight relationships? And that's just a straight person projecting onto you their ignorance about gay sex and gay relationships. Because it is possible to be straight and ignorant of gay sex and gay relationships, it is impossible to be gay and ignorant of straight sex, straight relationships, straight emotional dynamics. Because we're typically born to, raised by straight people, surrounded by straight people. We're swimming in straight people in a way that straight people are not swimming in gay people. And we have a perspective on straight relationships and what works about them, what doesn't work about them, and what they might be able to learn from gay people and gay sex and gay relationships and take from us that might improve their relationships.

[Dan Savage]

The storyline Dan was most enraptured by was the foursome Harper, Ethan, Daphne and Cameron. As the season unfolds, their dynamic becomes a stage on which Mike White can play out contemporary ideas and anxieties about love and sex. Like, what does it look like to be in a long term relationship these days? What turns people on, what keeps them connected? So you're like playing games with them.

[Will Sharpe]

We both do it. It's like hide and seek. Keeps things interesting.

[Dan Savage]

Obviously, we wanted to hear about all of this from the actors.

[Megan Fahey]

Okay, I'm recording. Hello.

[Dan Savage]

Will Sharp told me that when he got the part of Ethan, he hadn't acted in about four years. He'd spent that period behind the camera directing a movie and then a different HBO project, a miniseries called Landscapers. If you haven't seen it, you have to check it out. Ethan is a recently wealthy tech entrepreneur who's cautiously exploring the benefits of the lavish lifestyle newly afforded to him.

[Megan Fahey]

I mean, nothing much has changed, to be honest. Nice to be able to help people, I guess.

[Dan Savage]

Will was Excited about the role, particularly about Ethan's character arc.

[Megan Fahey]

It felt like in the earlier episodes, it was about holding my nerve, not giving away too much and kind of somehow trying to portray, like an internalized agony and an internalized sort of conflict. That's what I liked about him, was that there was a journey for him, for Will.

[Dan Savage]

It was also meaningful that Ethan was non white.

[Megan Fahey]

Ethan's ethnicity, I think, was something that I had on my mind quite a lot, actually. Kind of, how does this character sit in this world of predominantly white privilege? And, you know, is there a part of him that is almost becoming the thing that he hates? And there's like a sort of weird disconnect within himself like that. He sort of has worked really hard to get to a place where he gets to go on holidays like this. But there's also a part of him that feels like he doesn't deserve to be there. And it's just because of, I guess, what he looks like and what his heritage is.

[Dan Savage]

Is that what happens when you're rich for too long? Your brain just atrophies.

[Megan Fahey]

I mean, they seem happy.

[Dan Savage]

No way.

[Adam DiMarco]

It's a front.

[Megan Fahey]

It's good to have, you know, diverse friends, I guess.

[Dan Savage]

Yeah.

[Adam DiMarco]

I think we're their diverse friends. They're white passing, diverse friends.

[Michael Imperioli]

Yeah, you're right.

[Dan Savage]

I know it's often hard to, like, articulate what chemistry is, but the four of you, there's just an energy. Did you have a sense that there was just something magnetic about this dynamic?

[Will Sharpe]

Yeah, I think the energy was sort of intact right from the beginning.

[Dan Savage]

This is Megan Fahey, who plays Daphne. But Megan Fahey doesn't really need an introduction. She's got one of the most memorable roles in season two and easily became one of its breakout stars in the show. Daphne is married to Cameron, who's played by Theo James. Cameron is a quintessential tech bro. And at first, Daphne comes off like an accommodating trophy wife and baby, thanks.

[Michael Imperioli]

For putting up with me.

[Will Sharpe]

I love you.

[Dan Savage]

But this is the Mike Whiteaverse, after all. So obviously it's a lot more complex than that.

[Will Sharpe]

I think that Daphne is a really emotionally intelligent woman, which is something that a lot of people probably wouldn't recognize about her right away. But I think the thing about emotionally intelligent people is they. They often don't want to present in that way because they usually want to make the people around them feel comfortable.

[Dan Savage]

Yeah.

[Will Sharpe]

And they can do that in a number of ways. But I think one of the main ways of doing that is by not being intimidating or seeming judgmental, you know, and that can often be overlooked as being a sign of emotional intelligence and social intelligence as well. Don't you think it's better to just do what you want, even if it's by yourself? I mean, Cameron does what he wants all the time. Why let them have all the fun.

[Dan Savage]

For a while? After the actors arrived in Sicily, scenes of the two couples together kept getting pushed back. They'd get their call times, go to hair and makeup, get in costume, and then have to go right back to their rooms.

[Megan Fahey]

Every time we went in, something would happen. Like, it would start raining or there'd be, like a windstorm or something. And it was almost like a joke that every time us four were called to set, it would be like, well, we have to cancel the day or film something that's inside that's with other people. And it does sort of up the stakes of every scene that you do. I feel like that was part of the kind of slingshotiness of Ethan's trajectory, where for so much of the series, you're just winding him up. Cameron would always sleep with the girls that I liked, but before I could get to them, if I ever told him that I liked a girl, he would swoop in and have sex with them within a week.

[Will Sharpe]

Cameron, rude.

[Megan Fahey]

You have a bad case of something called mimetic desire.

[Will Sharpe]

What's that?

[Megan Fahey]

If someone with higher status and you want something, it means it's more likely that you will want it.

[Michael Imperioli]

You did not have higher status than me.

[Megan Fahey]

Not then. Maybe.

[Dan Savage]

Amidst all this winding up, Daphne is busy doing something else. Scheming. Megan said that one of her favorite scenes and one of the most revealing ones about Daphne occurred outside of the hotel when Daphne and Harper go on their overnight at the Palazzo.

[Will Sharpe]

We're in the pool, and I'm trying to convince her to stay another night. And then I say, like, you know, can I hop out and call? Can I tell Cam first? He has really intense FOMO and also abandonment issues. So it's just gonna be really funny to tell him we're living it up at some sick palazzo. I love that scene because it's like you get to see Daphne be, like, a little spooky in a way. Like, you get to see her be a little mischievous. And that's sort of like the first time that I feel like she's sort of really playing this game with her husband, you know? And I loved how down Mike was to let her be like a little freak in that moment, you know, like, just Energetically, like, enjoying the game. To me, it really was this little, like, gold nugget, you know, a window into her complicated brain.

[Dan Savage]

Scenes like this drive home a point that Megan knows intuitively. Daphne is devious. She's the kind of person who likes to toy with people around her. And that toying ensures that she is never made to feel small.

[Will Sharpe]

Some people will say to me, you know, they'll be like, oh, I felt so bad for her, for Daphne, you know, at the end. And it's like, no. Why? She was playing the game the whole time. And that that was the one thing that Mike was really specific about before we started shooting, was that she's not a victim of her circumstances at all.

[Dan Savage]

Dan Savage told me that he was enraptured by the two couples. He saw them as articulating a big question of the second season. How do you sustain desire in a long term relationship?

[Michael Imperioli]

Esther Perel, who wrote Mating in Captivity very wisely said, the paradox of desire in a long term relationship is to desire is to want. And how do you want what you have when you're married, when you're together, when you're committed, when it's been decades, how do you keep that spark alive? Harper and Ethan's relationship almost seems like a deposition at all times. And the betrayals are contained within the relationship because, you know, Ethan is masturbating to porn featuring women that don't look exactly like his wife. Harper, what's with the boner?

[Megan Fahey]

Yeah, fair question. I was jerking off.

[Adam DiMarco]

Oh, oh, oh, oh.

[Dan Savage]

Why?

[Michael Imperioli]

Harper has real illusions about what her relationship is and is very smug about what her relationship is and what it means. And in some ways, she regards her relationship as perfect or projects onto others that her relationship is perfect, but she knows there's a rot at the heart of it and can't quite put her finger on it.

[Adam DiMarco]

They have a twisted relationship and we are fine compared to them. We are fine.

[Michael Imperioli]

And of course, we begin thinking Daphne and Cameron are shitty and dysfunctional and clueless. And yet Daphne and Cameron are doing something right that Harper and Ethan aren't doing. They're maintaining their sense of individuality. And part of what I saw in season two was Daphne and Cameron almost being a stand in a more dysfunctional version of the kind of gay male relationships you often see, which are either explicitly open or tacitly open. And it helps strengthen the relationship rather than weaken the relationship, which white threads through scenes with Harper and Ethan being very superior about the fact that they never lie to each other, that they're transparent. But then there's no gulf to bridge. Then there's no mystery. There's no eroticism in their relationship. They're not fucking.

[Dan Savage]

All this simmering stress finally comes to a boil in the finale featuring what is probably the most debated scene of season two. Of course, I'm talking about the exchange between Daphne and Ethan on the beach.

[Will Sharpe]

Have you been over there yet? To Isola. Bella, I really want to go before we leave. Looks so pretty. Come on, walk with me.

[Dan Savage]

Let's rewind and break down what happens right before Ethan confronts Harper about sleeping with Cameron.

[Megan Fahey]

I was in the water and you guys are doing shots and flirting and whispering to each other. And then I come up here and the fucking door is latched. Why was the door latched?

[Dan Savage]

Harper admits to kissing him.

[Megan Fahey]

All right, I don't know what the fuck happened, but one thing that I do know is he tried to fuck you.

[Dan Savage]

Where are you going? Which triggers Ethan to storm off and attack Cameron. Ethan then finds Daphne on the beach and shares his suspicions.

[Will Sharpe]

I don't think you have anything to worry about. I mean, we never really know what goes on in people's minds or what they do, right? You spend every second with somebody. There's still this part that's a mystery. You don't have to know everything to love someone.

[Dan Savage]

Megan and Will told me about shooting this scene.

[Megan Fahey]

There was a take where Mike was like. I feel like this is where the whole of this trip is just catching up with Ethan and everything he's been bottling up is kind of like just flowing. It's, like, finally coming out of him. So I did a take where I was finding what she was saying, like, really affecting and sort of emotional. And then. And then Mike was like, yeah, I think it's good to have. But I don't know, maybe we should pull it back. And so we went back to something that was a bit more ambiguous or kind of still left us somewhere to go. After all of this, like, sound and fury, we arrive at point of stillness.

[Will Sharpe]

I feel like what's so interesting about that scene is the audience is watching Daphne process information in real time and then make a very targeted. And that is the crux of that character, is that she is regularly taking in the world around her and making a very, very deliberate choice in the way that she chooses to respond. And that scene was her doing that. In a nutshell.

[Megan Fahey]

All of the characters in that series were one way or another, trying to find some kind of connection. And Ethan was not an exception. And in a fucked up way, actually, Daphne is sort of seeing him in that moment that's in a funny way, sort of comforting that he feels seen and like there is a connection being made.

[Dan Savage]

After the exchange, Ethan and Daphne walk off screen toward an island away from the mainland where something goes down. Both Megan and Will have been asked a million times if they have any idea what happened on the island. They've mostly demurred for good reason.

[Will Sharpe]

I think it's amazing that the audience doesn't really have an answer because I think that's part of what Mike's magic is. What he likes to do is present a situation to an audience and let them decide how they feel about it instead of picking for them and telling them. And I think that is such a special way to view something, and it's so rare these days.

[Megan Fahey]

I think I kind of thought of it in as empirical a way as it was filmed where I was kind of like, well, they went over there, and it's not really about the details of what happened. It's like that in itself is an event. It's like it's a betrayal of sorts. It's a thing that happened between them.

[Will Sharpe]

I have my idea, but, yeah, I think I'm kind of like. I don't even want to say what it is because I feel like it should be, you know, it should belong to everyone in that way.

[Megan Fahey]

Other people, weirdly, did seem to have, like, quite strong opinions about exactly what happened and would, like, offer them up. I'd be like, okay, cool, man. Whatever.

[Dan Savage]

Megan even turned the question around on me.

[Will Sharpe]

What do you think?

[Dan Savage]

We eventually decided to respect Mike White's vision and let the scene lie in any way. As Dan Savage pointed out to me, the scene basically says it all on its own.

[Michael Imperioli]

They fucked. Yeah, they fucked. There's no ambiguity there. There's no ambiguity on whether Daphne fucked Ethan, and Ethan fucked Daphne at that moment. It's brilliantly staged and directed where Daphne looks back over her shoulder at Ithan, who has stopped walking toward the little island. This separate place, right? Separate from the mainland, separate from the relationship, right? And she looks back at him, and he looks forward and sort of his head tilts back a little bit toward the mainland where his wife is. And then he takes a step forward. He crosses the Rubicon at that moment and follows Daphne.

[Dan Savage]

Dan also said that any uncertainty viewers have about what went down on the island actually says more about us than it does about the show.

[Michael Imperioli]

I think there's a lot of people out there who are so invested in monogamy and we're invested by this point in these characters, and we're raised to believe that cheating is the worst thing that someone could do to somebody else. And so we want to give people every benefit of the doubt if we like them, that they didn't. And people really liked Ethan, and I think people liked Ethan more than Daphne. Ethan was incredibly sympathetic and incredibly hot. And people wanted to exonerate Ethan at that moment. And it was people telling on themselves in a way, and saying something about themselves and not taking in what Mike White was showing them, not telling them not, let's go fuck. I'm gonna fuck you now. We fucked now. But what he was showing them, which is they not only did they fuck, but they fucked. And Ethan fucking Daphne saved Ethan and Harper's relationship. I sometimes have a bad reputation among other people in the sex and relationship advice racket because I will sometimes give people permission to cheat in circumstances where a sexless relationship. They did their level best. They went to couples counseling. Nothing has improved. I sometimes think cheating is the least worst option for all involved if a person can discreetly get their needs met elsewhere and take the burden off the relationship. I call it do what you need to do to stay married and stay sane. Sometimes you have to do what you need to do to stay married and stay sane. And there was an echo of that for me in Daphne's speech.

[Will Sharpe]

A mystery. It's kind of sexy. I'm a mystery to myself. Honestly, Daphne, I surprise myself all the time. I think you just do whatever you have to do not to feel like a victim of life. You just use your imagination.

[Michael Imperioli]

Daphne's right, you know, a couple is a story. It's a myth that two people create. Who you are as a couple is a story. You tell each other about each other, but it's also a story that you tell together other people about who you are. And we're constantly revising that story. And as Daphne says, as Mike White says, that other person we're in the relationship with is a mystery to us, but we are also a mystery to ourselves.

[Dan Savage]

In regard to Daphne and Cameron, Dan often talks about toyamory, a word that he coined. Polyamory is a portmanteau, a combination of the words polyamory and tolerate, as in tolerating a partner's cheating.

[Michael Imperioli]

Polyamory means many loves. Poly, many, amory love. It's an awkward term because polly comes from Greek and amor comes from the Latin. And to means you turning a blind eye. You put up with it, you tolerate. Your love's infidelities and turn a blind eye and early you think just Daphne is T. And then you realize that they're both Tully. That Daphne reasserts her agency and control and sense of self by giving herself permission to do what she knows Cameron is doing or has done. I'm curious, who cheated first, right?

[Dan Savage]

The two couples might be the most explicit example of Mike White exploring gender dynamics in season two. But there's another major storyline that gets into it as well. The Degrasso family.

[Michael Imperioli]

Flirting is one of the pleasures of life.

[Theo James]

Do you actually think you have a chance with any of these women? Don't be rude. I'm just saying you're 80 years old.

[Michael Imperioli]

Oh, I'm still a man. And I get older and older, but the women I desire remain young.

[Dan Savage]

Natural, right? You can relate to that. If Daphne and Ethan's little moment on the island is an example of cheating gone right, then you could see the story of Dominic Degrasso, played by Michael Imperioli, as its foil. Cheating gone very wrong.

[Theo James]

My dad has cheated on my mom a lot and he just got caught again.

[Adam DiMarco]

Yikes.

[Dan Savage]

For him.

[Michael Imperioli]

Moderation in all things, right? Including moderation. And Dominic, that character has no self control, can't moderate. That tells us by inference that however much a dog Cameron is, he can self regulate in a way that Dominic can't. And therefore Cameron's relationship with Daphne can survive the weight of the infidelities that Cameron commits and Dominic's relationship can't survive.

[Will Sharpe]

I don't fucking care, Tom. I've wasted enough of my life. I don't want you calling me anymore. Go fuck yourself, you fucking piece of fucking shit.

[Michael Imperioli]

What for me that storyline is talking about is really the transmission of a kind of toxic masculinity from generation to generation and how that kind of male toxicity can be passed on.

[Dan Savage]

You might say that Dominic's womanizing was passed on to him by his father, Bert, played by the great F. Murray Abraham. You're blaming me for your situation as rich?

[Theo James]

Do you think you are so discreet?

[Michael Imperioli]

Do you?

[Megan Fahey]

I mean, how many nights did I.

[Theo James]

Hear mom cry herself to sleep? Get real.

[Dan Savage]

And now it's trickling further down the family tree to affect Dominic's son Alby, played by Adam DiMarco. I got the chance to talk to Adam about the role.

[Theo James]

The character's half Italian, specifically. And I'm like, I'm half Italian. And then his name's like Albie Di Grazzo. And I'm like, Adam DiMarco. I'm like, even that alone I was like, okay, this feels like I have my in.

[Dan Savage]

And can you speak Italian?

[Theo James]

I. No, I can't speak Italian. When I was there, I learned a few important phrases like, sono intolerante, lactozio. I'm lactose intolerant. Important, yeah.

[Dan Savage]

Adam knew that he'd be acting opposite two giants, Michael Imperioli and F. Murray Abraham. But he was also, and maybe helpfully so, oblivious to some of the hype.

[Theo James]

I was lucky in the sense that I hadn't seen Amadeus or the Sopranos heading there. And I was like, well, I'm definitely not going to start now because I don't want to be more intimidated than I already am. So I was kind of able to just kind of see them as my dad and my grandpa without any other images. I mean, I have seen Amadeus now, and I'm currently watching the Sopranos, so I'm, like, retroactively freaking out. But at the time, I kind of worked out nicely. But I haven't seen, like, a lot of stuff. Like, I hadn't even seen the Godfather, which I have seen now.

[Dan Savage]

Would you say Sopranos lives up to its reputation?

[Theo James]

Yeah. And the Godfather and Amadeus.

[Michael Imperioli]

Yeah.

[Dan Savage]

During the shoot, Adam saw Alby as trying to evolve beyond the chauvinism that defined his dad and grandpa. But Alby is, after all, still a Degrasso at heart.

[Theo James]

I think Alby was trying to learn from their mistakes or write the course of their history. But also, I just tried to play with their alikeness as well as their differences. Yeah. Michael wears sunglasses a lot, I noticed in scenes. And so I was like, I'm not gonna wear my sunglasses. It's like, I don't wanna be like my dad. And then in the last episode, when I'm, like, facing him, I, like, put my sunglasses on at the end. It's just, like, a little thing for me to play with. Just picking moments to borrow similarities and then also carve out differences.

[Dan Savage]

Adam knows that some people see Alby as a kind of performative feminist or even an incel type. You know, the kind of guy who makes out like he's considerate and caring, but then resents women behind their back because they don't appreciate him the way he wants to be appreciated. Still, Adam wanted to bring out Albie's nice set.

[Theo James]

I think I just try to play him as a good guy or neutral good, I guess, if there's, like, an alignment chart. But then near the end of the season, I guess he shows more sides to him, like blackmailing his dad, moving.

[Dan Savage]

Towards, like, neutral evil.

[Theo James]

Yeah, wait, or lawful, evil or. I don't know. Girls always complain that guys aren't nice, but then if they find a nice guy, they're not always interested. But I just don't want to be like my dad, you know? I refuse to have a bad relationship with women.

[Dan Savage]

Alby's spiel about being a nice guy is something Dan said he hears from dudes all the time.

[Michael Imperioli]

Straight guys will complain to me about how the girls will tell you they want the nice, respectable, considerate guy who's very conscientious about consent, but then the guy they run off with or they're turned on by is the lo hot asshole.

[Dan Savage]

This dynamic unfolds in a subplot between Alby and two other characters, Portia, played by Hayley, Lou Richardson and Jack, played by Leo Woodall. I did sit down with Hayley to talk about her role as Portia, a character that for her sometimes felt a little too close to home.

[Adam DiMarco]

The first time I met Mike in person, we were getting called in to meet Mike and talk about characters and everything, and me and Adam got called in at the same time. It was my second day, I think, in Sicily, and I was staying in an apartment like maybe a 10 minute walk from the four seasons. I didn't know how to get places and I, like was jet lagged and it was pouring rain and my Google Maps wasn't working with the small Sicilian streets. And I was walking down this one road and it was a one way street and I couldn't see, I didn't have an umbrella. And then a car almost hit me. And then all of a sudden I got to the Four Seasons and I was like soaking wet and like pitiful and crying. And then I went in this room and I met Mike and I was trying to like be all like, oh, everything's great. But then I had kind of a breakdown and I was telling him this whole story that I just told you and he just looked at me. He just watched and listened. And then he was like, oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were doing a bit as Portia. And I was like, whoa. Like, it just hit really deep. Because then that's when I realized, like, whoa, am I Portia?

[Dan Savage]

Early on in the season, Alby develops a crush on Portia, who's staying at the White Lotus as Tanya's assistant.

[Theo James]

How's your day?

[Adam DiMarco]

Pretty grim, actually. I feel like if I murdered my boss, I could argue it was euthanasia.

[Dan Savage]

But soon Alby has to compete for Portia's attention with Jack. A flirty British bad boy who has his own devious intentions.

[Megan Fahey]

Alright, well then, if you want an adventurer, stick with me. Cause I know how to have fun in a sandbox, if you know what I mean.

[Adam DiMarco]

I don't know what you mean by that.

[Megan Fahey]

I'll teach her.

[Dan Savage]

As the episodes unfold, Alby and Portia end up going their separate ways. Portia on her adventure with Jack, and Alby on his own sexual journey with Lucia, the Italian sex worker.

[Theo James]

What would it take for him to let you go?

[Will Sharpe]

Money, he says I owe him.

[Dan Savage]

In essence. Alby gets scammed.

[Michael Imperioli]

Again. Mike White and his genius. Alby does get exploited and taken advantage of in a way where you can understand why he might become more like his father and more like his grandfather. Where his naivete, his wishful thinking, his desire to be the white knight and the savior and see himself in that role winds up costing him and his father dearly. And it's almost as if his father coughs up the 50 grand knowing that they're going to get fucked out of the money. And he's, in a way, purchasing his son's disillusionment or disabusing his son of his disillusionment at that moment when he hands over the money. But it also. You can see Alby becoming Dominic in 20, 30 years, being very cynical from here on out about who women are.

[Dan Savage]

This arc for Alby, his evolution from sensitivity to disillusion culminates in the final episode when Alby and Portia have their final run in at the airport.

[Theo James]

Portia.

[Will Sharpe]

Hi.

[Dan Savage]

Hey.

[Michael Imperioli]

Alby briefly reconnects in the airport with Portia, who's just gone through an incredibly traumatic experience. You worry for both of them. He's changed. And you can see her sense the change in him. And you can see that she's not more attracted to him now because, oh, here's the safe, respectful boy, as opposed to the asshole I ran off with. But you can see her almost picking up some sense that in him now is the seed of the exploitative, misogynistic asshole that she needs a man to be to arouse her. Yes. And Mike White packs so much into that moment, it's like a. Like a collapsed star. You get no sense that they're going to redeem or save each other. You get a sense now that they're both in a position where if they did get together, they would destroy.

[Adam DiMarco]

Can I get your number?

[Dan Savage]

Yeah, sure.

[Adam DiMarco]

You could just put it in.

[Michael Imperioli]

Yeah.

[Theo James]

And give me yours.

[Adam DiMarco]

Yeah.

[Dan Savage]

So the Degrassos end up basically where they Started with Alby, even more like his dad and grandpa. But what about the foursome?

[Megan Fahey]

I mean, Ethan, he sort of like boils over. In the final episodes, it felt like Will Sharp again. He starts in one place, he finishes in a completely different place. And patiently building towards the scenes where I was allowed to sort of detonate a bit more. I guess, like, that was fun. So I think in a weird way, it's not like a full catharsis, but he's also just been losing and losing and losing and losing, you know, throughout the series up to that point. And that's kind of like around there, I think in the final episode is where he starts to maybe win a little bit. Like he's a little bit more on top than he was and gets some of his dignity back, let's say.

[Dan Savage]

The last we see of Ethan and Harper, they're lounging in the airport, wrapped in each other's arms. Mount Etna looms behind them, spewing lava in a way that feels very climactic.

[Megan Fahey]

I often found the image of Mount Etna quite surreal for some reason. Like, it looms so large over that city, sometimes it would erupt and the locals would just be like, yeah, don't worry about that. That's what it does.

[Will Sharpe]

Whoa, is that a volcano?

[Michael Imperioli]

Mount Etna. What Harper and Ethan have learned from Daphne and Cameron by the end of season two is that some distance, some separation, even some amount of betrayal is better for the relationship. Something to bridge, something to forgive. The last time you see Ethan and Harper, they're cuddling and obviously reconnected.

[Dan Savage]

So Ethan and Harper received something incredibly valuable during their stay at the White Lotus. A couple's therapy of sorts. Whether they're healed for good or if it's just a band aid. Who's to say? But there's been healing.

[Michael Imperioli]

I wonder how Harper feels a month from the end of a month after they got back from that vacation. And whether self doubt is corroding that connection again.

[Dan Savage]

As for Daphne and Cameron, we talked about what they're doing right in their relationship. But there is one moment that, how shall we say, complicates things.

[Will Sharpe]

I have this trainer in the city, Lawrence. He's so handsome. He has blonde hair and these, like, big blue eyes. I spend more time with him than Cameron sometimes. Such a cutie. Wanna see a pic?

[Michael Imperioli]

This is just a picture of your kids.

[Dan Savage]

Is it?

[Will Sharpe]

Whoopsie.

[Michael Imperioli]

That's a time bomb. That's a long fuse ticking time bomb. That's a me in 23 test. Away from that kid 10, 15 years in the future having a crisis of identity that his parents burdened him with that was an unfair consequence for a child of his parents conduct that he had no control over. And I sit with that at times because I'm like, you know, cheating happens and we should be able to get past it. But sometimes cheating can have long term consequences, not just for the people in the relationship where there was infidelity, but for all around them. And I think White signaled that brilliantly by gesturing toward this child who quite clearly is not Cameron's. And Cameron has like weird fucked up feelings about that he's suppressing.

[Dan Savage]

I want Daddy.

[Will Sharpe]

Can you give the phone to Grammy please?

[Theo James]

I want Daddy.

[Will Sharpe]

Cameron. Hey Cam.

[Adam DiMarco]

Where's Daddy?

[Will Sharpe]

Cameron? Abby Cameron.

[Dan Savage]

Next time on the White Lotus Official Podcast, we'll be looking at everyone's favorite White Lotus character. One the gays couldn't stop trying to murder Tanya. He called them the evil gays. And I was like, really? They're bad. They're really bad. And Mike goes, yes, Jennifer, because let.

[Megan Fahey]

Me tell you something.

[Dan Savage]

Gay men don't always want to be the best friend. Do you know how badly gay men want to play evil people? The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by me, Evan Ross Katz and produced by Natalia Winkelman. Our associate producer is Aaliyah Papes. Fact checking by Gray Lanta at Campside Media. Our executive producer is Josh Dean. Editing and sound design by Ewin Lai Trimuin. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen Sirokach and Kenya Reyes from the HBO Podcast team. Thank you for listening and I'll see you next time.

[Evan Ross Katz]

The official White Lotus Podcast is sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch. Every five star getaway needs a five star wardrobe, preferably without the drama. Abercrombie and Fitch's long weekend collection has you covered. Discover versatile Mila dresses, classic skirts and the refined A and F Collins suit. Easily styled for dressier laid back looks. Perfect for any moment on your itinerary. Your vacation starts now. Use Lotus 15 to get an extra 15% off almost everything at checkout. Code valid in the US and Canada through April 13th. Exclusions apply. C site for details. Pack wisely with Abercrombie and Fitch.