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- [00:00]
Evan Ross Katz
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- [00:41]
Jennifer Coolidge
What was the thing that made you want to dedicate your whole life to activism? Was it one incident that was especially brutal?
- [00:49]
John Grice
I don't understand. What do you mean, activism?
- [00:52]
Jennifer Coolidge
Black lives matter.
- [00:55]
John Grice
Black lives matter. I'm not involved in that.
- [01:00]
Jennifer Coolidge
Well, you're not.
- [01:01]
John Grice
No. No, because you.
- [01:05]
Jennifer Coolidge
Yeah, you said blm.
- [01:09]
John Grice
Yeah, that's the Bureau of Land Management. I have like 300 rangers across 10 states that report to me.
- [01:17]
Jennifer Coolidge
Wow. I guess I got that really wrong. God. I mean, now that makes sense. You know a lot more.
- [01:28]
David Bernad
Hello, I'm Evan Ross Katz, and welcome back to the White Lotus Official Podcast, specifically to the episode that we've all been waiting for. Okay, maybe not all of us, but definitely me. That's because today we're talking Jennifer Coolidge and Tanya.
- [01:43]
Jennifer Coolidge
Oh, my God, this is such a beautiful view. I wonder if anyone's ever jumped from here.
- [01:52]
David Bernad
As I mentioned in our first episode, Jennifer Coolidge and I initially met via Instagram, but we really became friends some months later after we hung out and hit it off. Or rather, that's how I would describe it. She might say, like, I just wouldn't leave her alone. People always ask me what Jen is like as a person. Is she similar to Tanya? Is she different from her? And I often have a hard time explaining her je ne sais quoi. The best that I can do is that I'm never more alive than when I'm with her. Truly, a mutual friend of ours once said to me that getting to be around Jen is like when you randomly encounter a butterfly, it's special and magical, and then the butterfly has to fly away to do butterfly things. That's Jen. And it's not just me that thinks this. Those fortunate enough to occupy her circle can all see the special glow she emits. Everyone who meets Jen has an instantly iconic Coolidge story. Just take it from Lucas Gage.
- [02:46]
Lucas Gage
Has Coolidge ever told you about the wine story? I buy a bottle of wine. I'm sloppy. I'm an idiot. And I knock and crash the whole entire wine over. I break it. It explodes. On the Four Seasons white couch and rug just shatters everywhere. I mean, it ruins all the furniture. I freak out. I feel horrible.
- [03:10]
Jennifer Coolidge
They.
- [03:11]
Lucas Gage
They come out with, like, a bill, like, an astronomical amount. I mean, maybe it was probably the right amount for the damage I had done. And I, like, turn away to clean myself up, and I just see Coolidge in the corner of my eye taking care of it. And she just, like, put a hand in my back. She's like, I got it. I got it covered. So I don't know in my head if she and I didn't. I feel like I've tried to press and ask her. I'm like, you can't pay. She's like, I'm not just. I don't know if she took it under her wing and, like, took care of the bill or took care of the mess or just got the staff to not want to kill me and kick me out right then and there. She's just. I'm obsessed with her.
- [03:51]
David Bernad
But listen, Jennifer Coolidge isn't just an incredible person to be around. She's also a wildly talented performer on the screen. She's been a scene stealer since her breakout guest appearance on Seinfeld in 1993. After that came a string of unforgettable roles in films like American Pie, Black Best in Show, Legally Blonde, and A Cinderella Story. And yet, for much of her career, Coolidge was often relegated to side characters. You know, the one who comes in, steals the show, and is gone by the time you can wipe the tears of laughter from your eyes. For gay men like myself, there's always been a certain Judy Garland esque appeal to Coolidge and a sixth sense that she was capable of far more than what she'd been given. I discussed that appeal with Dan Savage, the sex and relationships advice columnist you heard from last episode.
- [04:42]
Dan Savage
Jennifer Coolidge. It's interesting. Her, I don't want to call it shtick. Like, she's really a star, and a star plays themselves in film after film after film. Bette Davis was always Bette Davis, right? There were just different personifications of Bette Davis, different people that that spirit of Bette Davis inhabited. And that's who Jennifer Coolidge is, right? She's a big star. There is something about her style, her performance style, her appetites that just comes across as kind of gay, chaotic that we can identify with, right? She's a little. Not messy In a bad way. Just hard to contain herself, right? And she spills out at the edges. And sometimes her characters are, you know, like Stifler's mom. We're self medicating with alcohol a little bit. Like, there's greater degrees of substance abuse in the gay community for a reason. And often that reason is about disinhibition and needing to disinhibit. And Jennifer Coolidge's whole style is a kind of. I'm not saying she's like playing a gay man or sending up gay men, but like, we recognize ourselves in her and how she moves through the world. You know, in part, she's beautiful. Like Stifler's mom was the original milf. All the boys in American Bi wanted to fuck Stifler's mom. But she's big in a way that women aren't allowed to be. Big in the same way that gay men, bi men are same sex attracted in a way, and big in a way that we're not supposed to be big. We're often gay people grow up sort of policing our behaviors and actions to rid ourselves of tells. It's why so many people will write to me when their gay friends come out and, oh, my friend came out as gay and now he walks different, sounds different. Why is he acting gay? And it's like, no, no, he's acting straight before. He's no longer policing himself. And that's what I always got from watching Jennifer Coolidge in anything was there was something about the way she didn't police herself as a person, as a performer, as a figure in pop culture that I recognize as kind of what gay men do when they come out. Stop policing themselves. Be big and messy and chaotic and hungry and have appetites and take up space. And that's what Coolidge does.
- [07:07]
David Bernad
We met Jennifer in 2007. We did a movie called Gentlemen Broncos.
- [07:12]
This is David Bernad, the producer of the White Lotus. I talked to him about his and Mike's friendship with Jen.
- [07:19]
Jennifer is someone that is one of our best friends in and outside of TV and the film business. And. And, you know, she's someone that we spent a lot of time with, traveled all over with, spent a lot of time with her in New Orleans. Always talking about, like, let's do something together. Mike had always talked about wanting to do a haunted house movie with Jennifer, which would be brilliant. And I think, you know, Mike was just very inspired by her. Jennifer is an incredible human being and the best of friends and just someone you want to work with and spend.
- [07:51]
Time with before the White Lotus, Mike pitched around a series called the Tears of St. Patsy, which was set to star Jennifer. Hollywood passed on the opportunity unwisely, I might say, but it did leave things open for Mike to bring Jen into the fold on his pandemic show, the White lotus. Enter Tonya McQuad, the deeply troubled, emotionally fragile, needy and self absorbed heiress of the White Lotus. This was the role of a lifetime for Jen and one that in many senses felt predestined. Here finally was the moment she could step into the spotlight that had long been waiting for her.
- [08:30]
Jennifer Coolidge
You got this.
- [08:33]
David Bernad
One person who got to know Jennifer and Tanya very well was John Grice.
- [08:38]
John Grice
Tanya is oblivious to what's happening around her. She's incapable of reading the room. Whereas Coolidge, on the other hand, is probably a genius when it comes to that.
- [08:54]
David Bernad
On the White Lotus, John played Greg, a buttoned up government professional who meets Tanya in season one and ends up married to her.
- [09:03]
Jennifer Coolidge
We should probably get the talking in now because there's gonna be a very loud luau show.
- [09:10]
David Bernad
Oh.
- [09:13]
John Grice
Well, let's get talking.
- [09:15]
David Bernad
During season one, I remember a big question rattling around with viewers was, does Greg actually like Tanya? I posed that question to John himself. I'm wondering what was your interpretation of that in season one?
- [09:28]
John Grice
I think, I do think he did. I think because I found myself just enamored with Jennifer in and of itself and I think that just augmented whatever I was feeling. And when I was reading it and I was very abstract with it, I thought, ah, you know, maybe he just wants to get some nookie and, you know, and just like vacation fun or whatever. But I thought, I thought that. I mean, I think one of the corners that I sensed Greg turning for better or for worse in his life because he was dealing with his mortality, was his empathy. And I felt like he felt bad for her. He felt at times he really felt her pain, but just tried to kind of keep everything light with her.
- [10:13]
David Bernad
Tanya spends a lot of season one latched onto Belinda, the resort spa employee played by Natasha Rothwell. Ultimately, she manipulates her, taking a long time to consider funding Belinda's own spa before reneging on the offer. Here's Natasha Rothwell.
- [10:30]
Natasha Rothwell
I think that when Tonya makes the offer to Belinda, she is genuine and she really is inspired in that moment to be one of the good ones. And I think that Belinda was very vulnerable in sharing her hopes and dreams with a client of the White Lotus. While I know audiences were so angry and frustrated with her, I think that both Belinda's expectations were probably a little bit too high. And I think also that Tanya was blinded by trying to find a solve for her pain. What Jennifer does brilliantly is she plays the empathy first. And obviously she's such a comedic genius. But I think that the reason why we root for her, even though she's doing all of these terrible things, is that we see the pain that birthed the action. Do you know what I mean? We see the catalyst for how she moves and her feeling that, like, relationships are transactional and no one wants her for her, they just want her for her money. And her trying to constantly kick the tires on every relationship that she has to, you know, trust that it's authentic. And once you've been burned, how do you love again? Once you've been burned, how do you, like, open yourself up again? And she's running from something, you know, so all of those wounds are so visible. And I think it makes it hard for people to write her off completely because she's so nuanced in how she moves through the world. And I think that Belinda saw her wounds and addressed her wounds and healed some of those wounds. And so immediately, Tanya turns the relationship transactional. I'll do something for you. Because she's not just used to receiving.
- [12:29]
Dan Savage
She's blind. She has blind spots.
- [12:32]
David Bernad
Dan Savage again, she is unintentionally, non.
- [12:35]
Dan Savage
Maliciously cruel and hurtful. And for that she gets a pass, right?
- [12:41]
Haley Lu Richardson
Yeah.
- [12:42]
Dan Savage
Because we all have blind spots and we all move through the world sometimes oblivious to the damage we leave in our wake. And one of the points, I think, White Manx and Season one is that the more wealth and power and privilege you have, the more oblivious you can be to people as you move through the world, shoving your money around.
- [13:05]
David Bernad
For those of you gunning to hear from the woman herself, I did get the chance to talk all things Tonya with Jennifer Coolidge after she had a little trouble finding the studio.
- [13:16]
Jennifer Coolidge
I mean, am I really going to turn into that kind of old fart where I can't find? I went past this building so many times.
- [13:24]
David Bernad
I don't think it's an old thing. I think it's just a you thing, but I think it's a quirk. Jennifer told me that she was gratified that viewers gave Tonya a pass, despite Tonya's, how shall we say, chronic obliviousness.
- [13:36]
Jennifer Coolidge
I think it was sort of cool that even though she was completely obsessed with herself and all of that, I think somehow the audience forgave Tonya because she was suffering so Much. Tonya was kind of a weirdo, but somehow, you know, people forgave her for a lot.
- [13:54]
David Bernad
They really did. You know they did.
- [13:56]
Jennifer Coolidge
I know we're not supposed to. I know you. That famous saying, you're not supposed to say anything negative about the character you create. I remember my acting teacher saying that, but I just did. And I think she passed away, so I'm not hurting her feelings, but. But I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I just. I thought, you know, I create this weird thing that sort of someone who's a little bit more repulsive than attractive, probably. But I just like, the people sort of went with it anyway. It's just being rich can really prevent you from getting well faster with all the distractions. You know, if you're really wealthy, you can distract yourself and distract others from ever finding out who you are, just because it's. It's so easy to do.
- [14:46]
David Bernad
Yeah.
- [14:47]
Jennifer Coolidge
It's almost like if you have nothing, you almost have a better chance.
- [14:52]
David Bernad
Looking back over Tonya's most iconic moments, there's one thing that stands out. Tanya spends some memorable time on boats. And one thing I know about Jennifer, she gets very, very seasick.
- [15:05]
Jennifer Coolidge
I brought my mother's ashes with me so I could spread them in the ocean. And I just realized yesterday I'm gonna need a boat. Coughing up my insides was cathartic because the entire cast got to see me throw up over and over again. And it got very intimate. It's sort of like. It's almost like I gave birth in front of everybody. You know, I gave a birth to a baby in front of the whole cat. It was so vulnerable. It was such a vulnerable, you know? Cause it looks like the boat was bigger than what it was. It was a teeny little boat. So everyone is, like six inches from each other out in the middle of the ocean in Maui with the whales. There were whales that came. Were jumping out of the water, and so it was kind of incredible. So there was this, you know, being deathly ill, but, I mean, I just remember it was very intimate. That's the most intimate I've felt with a group. You can't get off the boat, and you have to be this close to a girl throwing up over and over again and everything. So there was something I'll never. It was sort of almost like initiation to a club that I'll never forget, you know, I'll always be part of that club.
- [16:15]
David Bernad
One of these boat scenes occurs in season one. On a sunset cruise, Shane and Rachel, the honeymoon couple, are trying to have a romantic dinner. Tanya, on the other hand, is there in full funeral attire to scatter her mother's ashes.
- [16:28]
Jennifer Coolidge
These are my mother's ashes. And I. I don't want tonight to be a downer. So let's have fun. Okay. I was excited to play, of course, you know, someone who lost their mother. Yeah. Lost my mother early and just never recovered. And Mike knows that, and he wrote that. He's also a genius because it's a very sad moment for my character. But when I read it, I was so excited about destroying Shane. I didn't even know the magic of Jake Lacey before we shot it. But his ability to play someone who can't handle an uncomfortable moment is so comedic. I mean, we know that guy so well. When something starts to go wrong, there's nothing funnier when that kind of guy is forced to be on a boat with, like, a really crazy person. And so I have to say, I thought about the comedic part of it way more than the sad part.
- [17:35]
David Bernad
The very first viral Tonya line actually occurs in that scene. Her memorable we he moment.
- [17:44]
Jennifer Coolidge
You're a beautiful couple.
- [17:47]
David Bernad
I asked her about that line.
- [17:49]
Jennifer Coolidge
I have no idea what that came.
- [17:50]
David Bernad
From, but Was it in the script?
- [17:53]
Jennifer Coolidge
No, I don't think so. No. I think it was just. I don't know. I was trying to think of something that would repulse Shane. I mean, you know, that was something I was trying to think of, like. I mean, in other words, the actress, me, you know, not the character. I was thinking of just, like, what can I do to, like, gross out Shane? You know? Like, in other words, the opposite is sexy. I just, you know, he doesn't like anything the opposite of sexy. And so to just do something like, you know, I know it's not attractive and seductive, and I just thought, like, there's nothing worse than someone coming onto you with some strange voice or something. And it just. It all, like, you know, makes, you know, a man really just want to retract everything.
- [18:43]
David Bernad
Tanya ends season one with Greg, leaving Belinda and her business dreams behind.
- [18:48]
Natasha Rothwell
How did it go with your guy?
- [18:50]
Jennifer Coolidge
Good. Good. Yeah? Yeah.
- [18:52]
Mike White
Really?
- [18:53]
Jennifer Coolidge
Yeah. Actually, we're gonna go to Honolulu tomorrow. Yeah. Spend the weekend together.
- [18:58]
David Bernad
She returns in season two with Greg, now her husband, excited to embark on a Sicilian adventure straight out of a Michelangelo Antonioni movie. For Jennifer, it was an intense experience, which made it all the easier to get into character when it's not a.
- [19:14]
Jennifer Coolidge
Soundstage and you're just actually filming in all these dramatic places and you're. I mean, there's something about so much of the work is done for you. It's just so much easier to believe the story that you're in because it's. You know, there's just. No. There's nothing around you is false. It's all like. I mean, look, yeah, we were in the hotel. The guys weren't trying to murder me at all moments or whatever. But we shot in these places that were so authentic and ancient that I swear to God, I. I don't know. The backdrops, everything was real. Like these. We really were standing on cliffs and in these boats. And, like, the evil gaze really did look evil on the boat. And it was so easy when I was on that boat in the middle of the ocean, trying to think of, like, how will I get off it? It's like. It's so weird. It's just. Yeah, you're not acting. It's like being in a movie where, you know, with a bunch of snakes and you're just. And so they come in and they dump all these rubber snakes on you, and you have to be scared. Whatever. It's like, I felt like white Lotus 2 was like. The snakes were real. Everything was real. You know, everything was kind of frightening.
- [20:25]
David Bernad
Yeah. What about the bike? Were you on the motorcycle?
- [20:28]
Jennifer Coolidge
Yeah, we were.
- [20:29]
John Grice
Wow.
- [20:30]
Jennifer Coolidge
Yeah.
- [20:31]
David Bernad
That's adventurous.
- [20:32]
Jennifer Coolidge
Yeah. They could have gone. Yeah, we could have gone off the cliff. I love that. Wow. We were close.
- [20:38]
David Bernad
When Tanya returns for season two in Sicily, she has a new character in Tower, her beleaguered Gen Z assistant, Portia, played by Haley Lou Richardson.
- [20:47]
Jennifer Coolidge
Hey, you're gonna have to get lost. Okay?
- [20:51]
David Bernad
Yeah.
- [20:53]
Haley Lu Richardson
So what do you mean, I see you in a week, then?
- [20:55]
Jennifer Coolidge
No, no, no, no. I want you to stay close because I might need you, but just lay low and not come out of your room.
- [21:03]
David Bernad
Hayley Liu told me that in her scenes with Jennifer, there were many, many times when Jennifer would go off on the hilarious improv tangent. And in those moments, Haley didn't even attempt to get on Jen's level, because.
- [21:16]
Haley Lu Richardson
I don't think that Tanya and Jennifer is someone that, like, can or should be matched. Like, I mean, it obviously wasn't the dynamic where, like, there's two big crazy characters, you know? So, like, I never felt, like, a pressure to match that or even fully go along with it because Portia is just, like, really trying to get through it. So I think I just, like. As Portia, I guess, just watched and tried to process that this was, like, a normal thing that was all gonna be okay. But me as Haley There was so many times where she would really go off and it was, like, over my shoulder, and I really just had to not laugh. Like, that was really my only goal, and just stay kind of as present as I could in case she asked me something. But that rarely happened. Like, most of the time, she truly just went off in her own world, and I just got to watch her do whatever she wanted, which was really cool. The one moment I'll never forget, and I was really shocked that it wasn't in the show, was we were at breakfast and she was like, do you think Greg is cheating on me? And then she, like, was supposed to say, like, one other sentence, and then she just went off on this giant, like, hysteric tangent, like, screaming at everyone at the breakfast balcony, do you?
- [22:49]
Jennifer Coolidge
Do you?
- [22:50]
Haley Lu Richardson
And I was just sitting there, like, that was the morning I peed my pants a little bit. And then the whole rest of the show, me and Mike would just be like, do you?
- [22:57]
Jennifer Coolidge
Do you?
- [22:58]
Natasha Rothwell
Do you?
- [22:59]
Haley Lu Richardson
To each other.
- [23:02]
David Bernad
As season two unfolds, Mike White drops many hints that this time around, Tanya is going to be the one who ends up dead. Maybe the most obvious signposting are the many allusions to Madame Butterfly, the famous Puccini opera about a woman who kills herself after her husband leaves her for another woman.
- [23:20]
Dan Savage
Poor Madame Butterfly.
- [23:22]
Jennifer Coolidge
Sepulchral. I can relate.
- [23:26]
David Bernad
In a late episode, Quentin, played by Tom Hollander, takes Tanya to see Madame Butterfly on stage in Palermo, and Tanya is moved to tears. Only later does Tanya find out that Quentin isn't her friend and that he's actually plotting to kill her for her fortune. I hate when that happens.
- [23:45]
Jennifer Coolidge
Oh, my God. Portia, meet me in Taormina. We gotta get the fuck outta here now.
- [23:52]
David Bernad
We'll get to that chaotic confrontation with the evil gays in just a moment. But first I have to rewind to when Mike was wrapping up the first season and was busy figuring out his next moves with hbo.
- [24:03]
Mike White
So my pitch to them was Jennifer's death. Like, Jennifer dying at the end of the season. I was like, well, bring back Jennifer. And, like, you know, like. And then I kind of pitched the whole, like, the gays are trying to murder me, like, storyline. And they really liked it. So it was kind of built into the second season. And at the time when I told her she was gonna die, I was like, this would probably be it. I really wasn't thinking beyond what we were doing there. I just thought it would be a great kind of two. But in the back of my mind, obviously, I like the concept of continuing to travel. I thought it was an elastic idea that could continue to maybe be fruitful or something to inspire me. So it was only really when the show was airing and all these people were interviewing Jennifer about it being over and her being kind of like very, yeah, there was a lot of pathos in some of those interviews and I was like, this is, this is sad. I love working with Jennifer and I, it was certainly not like any desire to get rid. I loved that what we did with Tanya's character. It pains me to feel like I, I don't know, I, I, I, I, I blew that. But you know, we will work together again and who knows, who knows how this will all play out.
- [25:25]
David Bernad
You didn't blow anything. I don't mean to, to, no, no.
- [25:29]
Mike White
But I do feel like it's like there was, you know, it's like if, if, like if they'd given me a six season order instead of a, yeah, a one more, we'll see. And you know, I, I probably would have, I don't planned it differently, but that's how it played out.
- [25:47]
Jennifer Coolidge
I may be paranoid. I need you to drive me in the boat. Drive the boat to the shore, please. These gays, they're trying to murder me.
- [25:58]
David Bernad
Now look, the minute I saw the Tonya Death episode, I knew, instant classic. Who else but Mike White could write a line like these gays, they're trying to murder me and have us cheer her on? Jen recalls that Mike was excited about how the sequence turned out too.
- [26:13]
Jennifer Coolidge
He called him the evil gays. And he said, I'm very excited about this. And he goes, you know, this group of men, they're not your friends, they are out to destroy you. And I was sort of fascinated and I was like, really? They're bad. They're really bad. And Mike goes, yes, Jennifer, because let me tell you something. Gay men don't always want to be the best friend. I don't. You know, gay men don't always want to be the pal and the person that, you know, puts the family back together. Do you know how badly gay men want to play evil people? This is going to be really fun for them. And this is something people want to see. And he was so adamant about it. And then, you know, when we were like filming it and you know, everyone had been cast and we were doing some scenes from it, I just remember thinking, having this revelation going like, oh my God, Mike White is so tuned in. It was unexpected. And people really liked this, you know, clever bunch of evil gays.
- [27:20]
David Bernad
Dan Savage Touched on the trope of the evil gays as well.
- [27:24]
Dan Savage
Certainly brought back the gay villain, right?
- [27:26]
David Bernad
Mm.
- [27:27]
Dan Savage
Which, you know, season one, you had the gay victim in a way that it ended up being Armand, who was in the coffin being loaded into the plane. Was a shock. And in this season, there are more dead gay people at the end, but they had it coming. And it's ironic because the gay people who die at the end of season two were the gay people who were coming for the gay fan favorite from season one and season two, Tanya. And so we were happy to see them die, which was a real trick of Mike White's on his gay audience that we were. When she was shooting gay men dead, we were like, fuck, yeah. Go Tanya.
- [28:09]
David Bernad
We never loved her more than when she was coming after our own. Yeah.
- [28:13]
Dan Savage
When she was shooting the gay bad guys. And, like, one of the things I think that is so exhilarating about both seasons is that there is a sense sometimes when you're gay person and you watch the representations of gay men, bi people, in queer community, in film and on television, that we're not all good and we're complicated and some of us are awful and some of us are evil. And yet it's almost as if because TV and film only showed us gay villains for the first 70, 80 years, that once they began to make it up to us for that, they stopped showing us any gay villains at all. Which is tedious.
- [28:54]
Mike White
Yes.
- [28:54]
Dan Savage
I'm sorry. It's just tedious and boring and not who we know we are. Which is complicated and morally ambiguous.
- [29:04]
David Bernad
Now, of course, movie and TV scenes are often shot out of order to make things easier on the production end. Which means that the last scene Jennifer ever shot for the White Lotus wasn't actually her death scene, but a dinner scene between Tanya and Greg. I asked John Grice about the days leading up to that final shot.
- [29:22]
John Grice
We would rehearse. We'd meet in a room and we'd rehearse. And it was one of those things. It's so bittersweet because I'm thinking, oh, my God, like, this is really gonna happen. And at the same time, she's like, going, you're being so cold to me. End the scene like, this is how we're talking to each other. I'm like, I'm sorry, but that's the way it's written, you know? And so. But she's like. But I know. She goes, I kind of like it. I like that. I like it when you're like, really kind of just standoffish. It really makes me angry. I like that, you know, so, like, we're actually talking about reaching for the darker side of it, you know, rather than lament about what's, you know, now over.
- [30:12]
Jennifer Coolidge
I've had every kind of treatment over the years. Death is the last immersive experience I haven't tried.
- [30:23]
David Bernad
Did you two commiserate at all about episode seven?
- [30:28]
John Grice
I think that it was the subject that we just didn't talk about.
- [30:32]
David Bernad
I get that impression from so many of the people that we've spoken to.
- [30:37]
John Grice
It's too hard to just kind of, you know, la dee da, you know, we're just gonna blah, blah, blah, you know. No, it was too hard to talk about, you know, I mean, if ever it came up when we would be out to dinner or hanging out or rehearsing, I would say, it can't be the end. Just, sorry, but it's like, it can't be over. There's got, you know, like, maybe season three opens up and you just see a trail of water walking to the room, you know, like, that's how my mind was working.
- [31:10]
David Bernad
Do you remember the final. Or what happened after the final cut?
- [31:13]
John Grice
Yeah, I mean, Mike White walked into the room and he was like, guys, you know, throw up his hands. And Jennifer was like, yeah, wow, okay.
- [31:28]
David Bernad
All right.
- [31:29]
John Grice
Like, you know, just like, wow, this really. This moment has arrived. And I was almost in tears. I mean, I just was keeping my. Myself together, you know, keeping my shit together. I just didn't want to let it go. Death doesn't have to spoil everything, right? Enjoy your life till they drop the curtain.
- [31:53]
David Bernad
When I sat down with Jen for this podcast, we both knew it was going to be one of the last times she'd be interviewed at length about her Lotus experience. So I started off by asking, how is she feeling about it all? What is your relationship like to this show with all of this time to reflect on the experience? Do you like the prospect of revisiting these two seasons? Is this a fun conversation? Is this a difficult one?
- [32:21]
Jennifer Coolidge
Yeah, it is. The one thing I sort of feel like I haven't really told the truth about is, you know, I've been interviewed a lot about. Are you sad that you're, you know, how do you feel about not being in White Lotus 3? And I sort of felt like I automatically said, you know, I'm devastated or whatever, but I don't know if I'm. I don't know if I'm that devastated because I do think it's really exciting if you've Never done White Lotus to get a part in Mike's show. And I am really excited for, like, this next cast. I mean, it is you. You know, I'm sure there's some jealousy down in there. Like, oh, I wanted to go. You know, I wanted to be part of that whole thing and go with that fun group of people and be in Thailand with that fun group of people. But, I mean, Mike White gave me such a generous gift, and I got to be in two of his seasons in White Lottery. So I have to say, like, I don't know if I'm really spending my time crying over spilt milk. I'm looking at other jobs, though, that bring that sort of the Mike White satisfaction when you're like, he gives you a lot to do and play, and you can't help but have a good time on a job with him. I mean, he's tough, too. He's really tough. And he's, you know, he knows what he wants, but he really likes actors, and he is a really fun person to hang out with. And like I say, I have to say I. I don't talk about my joy enough from the joy I got from those two years.
- [33:59]
David Bernad
In your defense, I feel like so often at the tail end of that press cycle, it was you being relentlessly asked the same question about, are you sad about Tonya's death? Are you sad you're not going to be continuing on? So I felt like you were pigeonholed in terms of not being asked about the joy of being on these two seasons and celebrating that. It became very, well, are you sad not to be back? Which sort of put you in a corner in terms of how you were able to look at it as a whole. Did you feel that way?
- [34:27]
Jennifer Coolidge
Yeah, I know. Well, that's very nice. Yeah, you're right. They do ask the same questions over and over, but sometimes your feelings change about them, or you're saying. You keep saying something and you're like, I don't know if I really feel that way today. You know, I don't know. There was a moment I sort of thought maybe I could have talked him out of it, but it didn't really go with the big, you know, Italian opera. You know, it got so dramatic. And look, the story turned into this fascinating but very sort of scary, unpredictable dream. And I don't know that if Mike had sort of written a scene where I sort of. All of a sudden, everyone's on the beach and they see this, like, flotation device coming up to the shore. And I'm, you know, my head is sticking out of it and I'm like, hey, guys. I mean, I don't know. I don't think anyone would, you know, maybe it's just good to be killed off sometimes and, you know, before people really hate your guts.
- [35:27]
John Grice
True.
- [35:28]
Jennifer Coolidge
You know.
- [35:28]
David Bernad
True. I'm wondering. There's just a level of vulnerability that was required to play this part. And it's a side of you I'd never seen in any of your previous performances. And I'm wondering what it was like for you to have to go to these places with this character. Do you feel like you'd ever been asked to go to this, these places before in roles you'd played?
- [35:51]
Jennifer Coolidge
No, no. But you have to realize, like, you know, I don't know if someone would watch Pootie Tang and go like, hey, I got a role for you.
- [36:01]
David Bernad
I forgot about Pudi Tang.
- [36:03]
Jennifer Coolidge
But you know what I mean? Like, in other words, they. A lot of the time you get cast in things is people see a glimmer of something that you, that you've done or whatever, and then you might have to recreate it on a bigger scale. We know what I mean. But I hadn't done any, like, any, any mind blowing work where people were like, oh, you know, you could really go on some emotional takes people on an emotional ride or anything. And I don't even know if I fully achieved it. All I know is that I got this cool part from Mike White and it was way more than I have ever been asked to play. It was a gift, a giant gift. The greatest thing about White Lotus is it was all a surprise. I didn't, I could never have predicted this moment. I'm still in disbelief that it ever happened. I've always said to people that you do have to have an unrealistic view of how much you can achieve in this lifetime. I really believe that. I think it has to be not realistic. And I think there's a side of me that's not realistic in any way and my dreams are very big. But that any of this would have happened is just beyond. I never would have predicted any of this ever. And so it doesn't have to happen again because I don't know if we could ever surpass this moment of gratitude. It's just this thrill to be part of something that people really liked.
- [37:37]
David Bernad
I imagine that this is one of the last times that you're going to sit down for this extended amount of time and talk about this experience. And so I'm wondering what that feels like, in a sense, to put this chapter to bed. How does that sit with you?
- [37:55]
Jennifer Coolidge
I don't know. You know, I'm sort of worrying about that a little bit. I'm wondering if I feel this.
- [38:04]
David Bernad
I'm worrying, she says while she starts laughing. Why are you worrying?
- [38:08]
Jennifer Coolidge
Well, you know, I'm just worrying. It was like, you know, we don't ever want to peak in this lifetime. I'm talking about peak. Like, I'm talking about just having a really fun experience with people that I really, really like. And. Yeah. Will I continue to mourn? You know, I don't know. You know, hopefully, you know, I'll mature and find the next thing. But ask me if I was gonna, you know, Mike was gonna do another season, somehow he was able to incorporate me. Just ask me that question.
- [38:50]
David Bernad
If Mike were to do another season and figure out a way to somehow incorporate Tanya, is that your desire?
- [38:57]
Jennifer Coolidge
Yes. Yeah, that would be. Yeah. Yeah, of course I probably would. Yeah, of course I probably would.
- [39:09]
David Bernad
Next time on the White Lotus Podcast, we'll be taking a deep dive into the show's unforgettable theme song.
- [39:15]
You know, at that point you're like, we don't know what the opening titles are. We don't know if it's going to be a song. We don't know what.
- [39:21]
Jennifer Coolidge
When it wasn't there, when we were trying to kind of accept this sound, it really wasn't an obvious choice. It was kind of a leap of faith.
- [39:31]
David Bernad
The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by me, Evan Ross Katz and produced by Natalia Winkelman. Our associate producer is Aaliyah Papes. Fact checking by Gray Lanta at Campside Media. Our executive producer is Josh Dean. Sound design and mix by Bart Warshaw at Cocoon Audio. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Sirocac and Kenya Reyes from the HBO Podcast team. Thank you for listening and I'll see you next time.
- [40:06]
Evan Ross Katz
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