Costuming The Last of Us: Ann Foley on Apocalyptic Realism and Character-Driven Design

Summary

Summary of "Costuming The Last of Us: Ann Foley on Apocalyptic Realism and Character-Driven Design"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Who What Wear Podcast
• Host: Tara Gonzalez (sitting down with Ann Foley)
• Episode: Costuming The Last of Us: Ann Foley on Apocalyptic Realism and Character-Driven Design
• Release Date: June 18, 2025

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1. Introduction and Background

The episode features an in-depth conversation between Tara Gonzalez, Senior Fashion and Social Media Editor at Who What Wear, and Ann Foley, the esteemed costume designer for The Last of Us Season Two. Ann Foley brings a wealth of experience from her extensive work in the superhero genre, including roles on Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and She-Hulk on Disney. This season mark a significant shift for Foley, transitioning from designing for vibrant, larger-than-life characters to crafting the rugged, realistic attire necessary for an apocalyptic setting.

2. Foley's Journey into Costume Design

Ann Foley recounts her unexpected entry into the world of costume design. Growing up in Georgia and studying fashion merchandising at Georgia Southern University, Foley's interest was piqued when she visited a movie set with her then-boyfriend, a Production Assistant. Observing the legendary costume designer Julie Weiss at work on a period film ignited her passion for costume design. This pivotal moment led her to move to Los Angeles with the support of a family friend, Aggie Rogers, and ultimately embark on her career in the industry.

Notable Quote:

"I sort of fell into it by accident... It was one of those life-altering moments." — Ann Foley (03:04)

3. Transition from Superhero to Apocalyptic Costuming

Foley discusses her transition from designing costumes for superhero genres to the more grounded and realistic attire required for The Last of Us. She emphasizes her love for world-building, a skill honed while working on various sci-fi projects. The meticulous nature of superhero costuming prepared her for the complexities of an apocalyptic narrative, where clothing not only serves aesthetic purposes but also narrates the survival story of the characters.

Notable Quote:

"Every episode teaches you how to pivot on a dime, how to just move forward and not doubt yourself." — Ann Foley (05:27)

4. Joining The Last of Us and Enhancing Season One's Aesthetic

Ann Foley shares her enthusiasm for joining The Last of Us during its second season. Having become a fan before officially becoming part of the team, she was deeply influenced by the show's emotional depth, particularly the relationship between Joel and Ellie. The five-year jump in the narrative provided her the creative freedom to evolve the characters' appearances, reflecting their growth and the changing dynamics of their relationship.

Notable Quote:

"Ellie is a 19-year-old woman now... her palette changes to more blues and greens and starts matching Joel's." — Ann Foley (10:01)

5. Character Costuming and Development

a. Joel and Ellie's Signature Pieces

A central focus of Foley's design is the signature Flint and Tinder jacket worn by Joel. This piece symbolizes Joel's enduring strength and serves as a narrative tool to evoke emotions during pivotal scenes. Ellie’s black Converse, another signature item, reflects her pragmatic and resilient nature. The subtle shifts in their clothing—such as the slimming of Ellie's jeans and the tucking in of Joel's shirt—visually narrate their character development over the five-year period.

Notable Quote:

"When I read the script for episode three... I knew it had to be that Flint and Tinder jacket because everybody knows that jacket." — Ann Foley (32:59)

b. Dina’s Distinct Style

Dina's vibrant and colorful wardrobe contrasts with Ellie’s subdued tones, highlighting her effervescent personality. Foley meticulously curated Dina's outfits to reflect her optimism and resilience despite limited resources. The incorporation of pieces like the Aviator Nation rainbow jacket not only grounds Dina's character in the story but also adds depth to her role within the community of Jackson.

Notable Quote:

"When Isabella put it on in her fitting, it was one of those perfect moments where Dina came to life immediately." — Ann Foley (20:39)

c. Gayle the Therapist

Catherine O'Hara's character, Gayle, is portrayed with timeless and sophisticated attire, emphasizing her denial and underlying anger in the post-apocalyptic world. By choosing classic brands like Gap and Banana Republic, Foley distinguishes Gayle from other characters, underscoring her unique position within Jackson as a more composed and put-together individual amidst chaos.

Notable Quote:

"Gail's clothes... pretty timeless, so that it didn't stand out as something that just could have been purchased last week." — Ann Foley (26:41)

6. Designing the Infected Characters

Creating costumes for the infected was both challenging and exhilarating for Foley. She aimed to humanize these characters by giving each infected individual distinct clothing styles, hinting at their personalities before infection. This approach heightens the horror by making the infected more relatable and their transformations more impactful.

Notable Quote:

"Trying to give them their own little backstory... makes it scarier, because you're like, oh, God, that could have been me." — Ann Foley (37:58)

7. Collaboration with Actors and Storytelling

Foley emphasizes the importance of collaboration with actors to infuse authenticity into the costumes. By involving actors in the design process, such as allowing Bella Ramsey to doodle on Ellie’s Converse, Foley creates a deeper connection between the character and the attire. This collaborative process ensures that the costumes not only look good on screen but also resonate emotionally with both the actors and the audience.

Notable Quote:

"Every morning that Bella would put those on, they would see... that was between Ellie and Bella." — Ann Foley (25:12)

8. Practicality in Costuming

Balancing aesthetics with practicality is a recurring theme in Foley's design philosophy. Whether it's ensuring that Dina's outfits are both stylish and functional or making sure that Joel's iconic jacket can withstand the rigors of an apocalyptic environment, Foley prioritizes the believability and functionality of each costume piece. This approach ensures that the characters remain grounded and relatable.

Notable Quote:

"How is this costume gonna work with the requirements from the stunt department from VFX? You have to figure out all the puzzle pieces." — Ann Foley (23:29)

9. Special Costume Pieces and Behind-the-Scenes Details

Foley delves into some of her favorite costume moments, such as the Seraphites' custom ponchos and Tommy's shearling leather coat. These pieces not only enhance the visual storytelling but also provide subtle hints about each character's background and role within the narrative. Collaborating with concept artists and game designers, Foley ensures that these unique outfits align seamlessly with the show's lore and aesthetic.

Notable Quote:

"Every single Seraphite has their own custom poncho, with their own personalized seraphite symbol." — Ann Foley (40:29)

10. Personal Insights and Favorite Aspects

Ann Foley shares her personal affinity for durable brands like Carhartt and Levi's, humorously contemplating what she would wear in an apocalyptic scenario. Her practical choice of attire not only reflects her professional expertise but also underscores the importance of functionality in design.

Notable Quote:

"I became a huge fan of Carhartt and Levi's during this, so they were so comfortable and they still are." — Ann Foley (40:44)

11. Conclusion

The episode concludes with heartfelt thanks to Ann Foley for sharing her expertise and insights into the intricate world of costume design for The Last of Us. Foley's dedication to creating authentic, character-driven attire plays a crucial role in bringing the post-apocalyptic world to life, enhancing both the narrative and emotional depth of the series.

Notable Quote:

"Trust me, you'll want to snatch these up before someone else does." — Tara Gonzalez (41:22)

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This episode offers a comprehensive look into the meticulous process of costume design in The Last of Us, highlighting how Ann Foley’s creative vision and collaborative approach contribute to the show's authenticity and emotional resonance. Whether you're a fashion enthusiast or a fan of the series, Foley's insights provide a deeper appreciation for the art of storytelling through costume.

Transcript

[Hilary Kerr]

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[Tara Gonzalez]

And thank you so much for joining me.

[Ann Foley]

Thank you.

[Tara Gonzalez]

I had to wear like my post apocalyptic beige neutral vest for this, so well done. Thank you. Okay, great. So to kind of start to get a little bit of background, how did you get into costume design to begin with and start this career?

[Ann Foley]

I sort of fell into it by accident. I grew up in Georgia, so I went to school at Georgia Southern University. I was majoring in fashion merch. And my boyfriend at the time was like a PA on a movie that was shooting in Savannah, and he took me to set, and I thought, oh, my God, this is amazing. And then I saw the costume designer, who was Julie Weiss, who's a legend in our business. And I didn't even know costume design was something you could do. I mean, I was so blown away by what I was seeing because it was a period film, so it was all of these period extras and the actors and all these amazing clothes. It was one of those life altering moments. And that's when I told my mom, I think I'm not going to go work at the limited, Even though the limited is great. I'm going to go to LA and try to be a costume designer. So I moved to LA with $501 phone number. Who was Aggie Rogers? A family friend. She introduced me to Hope Hannifin, who was her assistant on a previous film. And this was Hope's first movie. So it was my first movie. It was Hope's first movie, and so we just jumped in together.

[Tara Gonzalez]

And since then, you've obviously spent a ton of your career on some really fun projects in the superhero genre, like Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and She Hulk for Disney. I'd love to know, like, what draws you to those type of worlds from a costume design perspective, because obviously they're so different than, like a period piece. You're kind of really creating these alternate universes.

[Ann Foley]

Yeah. It's about world building, and I really love that. And even back in my assistant design days, when I was working with costume designers like Ellen Mirojnick and Michael Kaplan and Betsy Hyman. Oh, and Marlene Stewart, they all were always drawn to world building projects. And I learned so many interesting things from each one of them. But definitely as I started designing, I did find myself in this sci fi lane, which I'm not gonna lie, I really kind of love. And then it started into world building, like, with altered carbon, which was an amazing design experience. One of the things I've always loved about television is that it keeps you on your toes for sure. Especially with a show like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. where you're doing 22 episodes a season.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Wow.

[Ann Foley]

And every eight days is a new episode. And you're prepping one episode as you're shooting another, so it becomes this crazy hamster wheel. And it teaches you how to pivot on a dime, how to, like, just move forward and not doubt yourself. And so I've always said agents of SHIELD for me was like, that was my college. That's what really helped me, you know, move to the next level. And it was really fantastic having that opportunity, because by the time I got to Altered Carbon, nothing really scared me anymore.

[Tara Gonzalez]

And then what was the biggest shift for you? Going from that sci fi superhero genre to something apocalyptic? There's a sense of, oh, this took place in the world that isn't that much different than the one I live in, and something terrible happened.

[Ann Foley]

Oh, 100%. What I love about the world of the Last of Us is that it's so grounded and it feels real. And that is because that's how Craig Mason and Neil Druckmann designed it. They wanted the audience to have such a visceral reaction to what they were seeing on screen, and they wanted the audience to be able to relate to what they were seeing. And when you're lucky enough to work with wonderful people, whether it was on she, Hulk, or on agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and even altered Carbon, they all have been very clear about the world that they're trying to build and what they want to communicate to the audience. And I've had great working relationships with all of them. That's really what it boils down to, is being able to have a great relationship with your showrunner so that you can have an open line of communication about what this world is and being on the same page as the rest of the team. The production designer, props, who I work so closely with, especially on a show like the Last of Us, we're constantly in each other's offices talking about, how is this gun gonna work with this costume, and what kind of holster do we wanna give Ellie? Every character has that kind of a conversation. Barry Gower, who does the prosthetics on the show, working side by side with his team and the cordyceps pieces. And how are we going to incorporate the cordyceps into the clothing of either a clicker or a Stage five infected? Those are some of the more fun conversations during the show that I really loved. One of the directives for this season was, let's take the cordyceps to the next level. So Neil and Craig presented us with all of these very cool pictures of molds and funguses. And how does mold and fungus, you know, come through the weave of the clothing in real life? And then it was up to us to incorporate that. And my breakdown team was so incredibly talented, and the workmanship that went into that integration was so beautiful. It was kind of gross to look at when you're watching the show, but it is truly Art. It would take about 10 days to do just one clicker. And we had a lot of infected this season.

[Tara Gonzalez]

So. Yeah, that's true. If it's a little gross on screen, then that's how you know that it's really incredible and intricate because there's so much that goes into that.

[Ann Foley]

Yeah, we just wanted it to look real. We even had a difference between the Jackson infected who were in the snow in that colder environment, versus the Seattle infected that were in a warmer environment that was more damp, like it is in the Pacific Northwest. So there was more mold growing into their clothes and even around the cordyceps pieces.

[Tara Gonzalez]

That attention to detail is really incredible. It comes across so well. And you came on for the Last of us for season two, which I imagine also is exciting because obviously the show, everybody was deeply obsessed right when it came out. I remember my boyfriend had played the game and he was like, we must watch the show. And at first I was like, oh, I don't know if I'm gonna be into a show that was based off a video game, just personally. And then I was like, we need to keep watching all of these episodes. Like, I instantly was hooked. Can you tell me about how you got involved with the Last of Us? But also, was it exciting to have an aesthetic to work off of from season one and take it to the next level for season two? Like, what exactly was that like in setting it apart?

[Ann Foley]

I was a hu of the show before I even got the call to come in to interview. Sort of like you. I was never into video games. I had just gotten back from Australia on a show and I had the worst jet lag. So I was up all night. I just binged the entire season in one sitting. And it was incredible. I was so blown away by the beauty of it and the Joel and Ellie relationship specifically. And so, yeah, when I got the call, I just jumped at it. And what was even more interesting about doing the second season for me was that it was five years later, so I wasn't necessarily tied into what happened season one. There's subtle little changes that we got to do with Joel. Like something as simple as just tucking his shirt in and presenting himself more like his brother because he's also a pillar of the community. We really got to see Jackson this season. And really going into Jackson and meeting that community, this was all stuff that drew me in. This was a completely new world that we were gonna get to see. Instead of a 14 year old kid, now Ellie is a 19 year old woman. You really get to See her arc in episode six with all the flashbacks to her birthdays. I'm so proud of this Ellie arc, going from, you know, happy sort of teenager to brood, angry young woman. And the silhouette changes with the clothes. It's a 14 year old. She's in baggier T shirts and everything, including the jeans fitting a little bit looser, but as she gets older, everything's starting to fit her a little bit better. The jeans are a little bit slimmer, the T shirts, the length of them a little bit shorter. Even in the arm and in the body, it's those little tiny hints that help inform you what's going on with this character. And even the color palette, as she's getting older, her palette changes to more blues and greens and starts matching Joel's. Because these two are so similar, they might not be related by blood, but they are father and daughter. They are partners. They are each other's family. So I wanted their palettes to sort of be very similar and representative of.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Yeah, like you said, I think that was the thing that a lot of people caught onto immediately was the five year jump. And then seeing these characters and they still feel like the characters that you knew from season one, of course. But then seeing those subtle differences, you're like, oh, she's grown up now. And then you see him. Joel just looked so much more put together in a way, you know, as put together as one could be in this situation. But, you know, you kind of get the sense he's really stepping into this role of essentially a father and pillar of the community.

[Ann Foley]

He's building Jackson up for all the refugees that are coming in. And not only that, but he helps people out when something goes wrong in their house. I gave him this beautiful scarf that you see in episode two. It's all hand knit. And I gave it this little backstory of maybe this was knit by somebody whose faucet you fixed or you fixed the heating in their house. And Pedro loved that idea because it had a backstory. And those little things are also important to the cast because it helps them to understand, like, where did this come from?

[Tara Gonzalez]

What is that relationship like when you're working with the actors to imbue more story into the clothing, do they ever approach you saying, I would love to wear this, or, this is what I think this jacket's story is telling? What is that balance looking like between you and the actors and putting this stuff together?

[Ann Foley]

I love that collaboration, and it's always important to me to have feedback. This cast was incredible and amazingly respectful but, you know, in the fitting room, you do have those conversations about this parka, I feel works and is important because it feels like it's late 90s, early 2000s. It has that period kind of vibe, because, weirdly, we are sort of a period show because no new clothes are made after 2003. With that in mind, I designed a parka for Pedro and for Bella that had that kind of mid to late 90s feel to it, but keeping their parkas similar enough where they looked familiar to each other and even in color. Pedro loved the idea that Ellie and Joel had a very similar color palette to reflect their relationship, because it's something that would happen in real life. They are each other's family, and I do count on their feedback because they know these characters better than I do. They've been playing them since season one, so collaboration is a big part of it.

[Tara Gonzalez]

When you were designing that piece, what type of things are you looking towards for inspiration?

[Ann Foley]

I always love doing mood boards at the start of every project. And then I start illustrating with my concept illustrator, Imogene Chayes, who is my ride or die, and we start talking through the boards, and I explain to Imogene what silhouette is important to me, what we're trying to convey, what fabrics I'm going to probably be looking at. And then she delivers, usually a pretty damn good illustration. And then from that point, we start building once it's approved by Craig and Neal. And I knew I wanted them to be canvas. I knew nylon was going to be more for Abby and her crowd for the wlf, so I wanted it to feel a little bit more grounded, I guess. So, yeah, we went for a really great canvas that we stripped out the color, and then we dyed it again and put more color into it. Then we sent it to the workroom to build the shell. Then the shell goes back to breakdown, where they tumble it again so that you get those really great faded edges and the seams. And then it goes back to the workroom for its waterproof lining and other linings. I think we gave both Joel and Ellie flannel for the lining in their parkas to keep them warm, because that's real snow that you saw in the show up in Alberta. It was really cold up there.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Oh, my God.

[Ann Foley]

We made sure that everybody had a waterproof lining and some other linings that keep them warm. Once the park is built, it goes back to breakdown, and they paint into it and give it the this feeling like it's over 30 years old.

[Tara Gonzalez]

And it looked amazing.

[Anna]

This episode is brought to you by ebay. Hi everyone, I'm Anna who what Wears Associate Features Editor thanks so much for listening to today's episode featuring Ann Foley, the costume designer behind the looks in the Last of Us. Foley's work might be a bit more on the rugged side, to say the least, given the drama behind characters, characters like Joel and Ellie in the TV show Low Key. If I was running from the infected, I'd probably want the most comfortable, nondescript, functional pieces of clothing too. Lucky for me, I'm just a little fashion editor living in New York and my footwear, mostly archival and vintage pumps, heels and mules, doesn't need to be fit for outrunning zombies. They're meant to get compliments from strangers on the street and they're constantly, constantly delivering. When people ask me where I get my one of a kind vintage treasures, there's only one place I tell them to go. EBay. EBay is the premier destination for pre loved luxury fashion pieces and accessories like purses, shoes and jewelry. Over the years, I've collected dozens of archival pairs of shoes from ebay. Since moving to New York, I've gotten countless compliments on my footwear while a cocktail party, parties, house dinners or even while riding the subway. One of my most complimented shoes, a pair of white studded Dior slingbacks, was a late night impulse purchase from ebay. After a friend asked me about them just last weekend, I was able to find the same pair at a steal of a price. While searching for the Dior pair, I also stumbled across this jaw dropping pair of Alessandro Michele era Gucci platforms complete with a gold horse fit detail on the front of the shoe. If they were my size, I would honestly have scooped them up so fast. You can find these pairs and more by going to ebay.com whotwear or by clicking the link in the description of today's episode. Heels aren't the only footwear I love. Over the years, much to the approval of my orthopedic doctor, I'm pivoting more and more towards chic flat shoes like loafers and ballet flats that will keep my feet from hurting during long walks in the summer around New York. If you're living in the city, you know what I mean. Sometimes my step count can be upwards of 20,000 on a particularly busy afternoon. That's why I added a stunning pair of classic black Christian Louboutin ballet flats to my ebay cart. If, like me, you have dozens of black flats and can't possibly justify buying another pair, ebay has hundreds of chic options at a lower price point you can convince yourself are worth the credit card charge. If you calculate the cost per wear on some of these finds, genuinely, it's the price of not getting your weekly sweet treat. Bottega Veneta or Brownie Bites. The answer is clear. Take a pair of nude Versace slingback ballet flats. I found them for under retail value and I didn't have to jump through hoops with Sales Associate or wait for them to come back in stock online. If you're itching to add a new pair to your collection, go to ebay.com whoitwear for these shoes and more. Trust me, you'll want to snatch these up before someone else does.

[Tara Gonzalez]

And I'd love to hear Was there any other part of the costuming this season that you were doing intentionally to really show that relationship that we saw in season one? That they're really enmeshed in each other?

[Ann Foley]

I feel like the color palette really told that story really well with Joel and Ellie. I did use color on other characters, specifically Dina, because even in the game, Dina is just this effervescent ray of light which Isabella Mercedes as well. In life, she is the most wonderful person you could ever meet. And when they cast Isabella, I just knew immediately, like color, just the bright. You wanted that to come across through her. And where Ellie is going to be in those darker shades of blue, Dina is going to be a ray of sunshine, literally. We have her in the rainbow jacket from Aviator Nation, which was also a big discussion because I had originally just put that jacket on my mood boards for Dina because I loved the late 90s vibe. It had to it. And then Neil Druckmann saw it and said, that's Dina. That's gotta be her jacket. It just feels too iconic. And that's when the conversations happen like, well, Aviator Nation is not in our timeline. They weren't founded till 2006. But what I love about working with Craig and Neil, they care. But what they care more about is story. And so they're like, thank you for letting us know that. But we feel like this is such a great piece. It's speaks to who Dina is that we want to use it in the show regardless of the timeline, which is what they did with that Pearl Jam song too. That's not in our timeline, but it serves the story. So that's how we landed on Dina's jacket. When Isabella put it on in her fitting, it was one of those perfect moments where Dina came to life immediately.

[Tara Gonzalez]

No, it's such a great jacket. It looks so good on her. And I'd love to talk a little bit more about her character, because obviously, as you said, her clothing is definitely brighter. It feels so different. She has a really great personal style, but she also has limited resources. So she has, like, studded belt, wears a lot more color than Ellie the beanie. Her hair always looks great. So how did you kind of approach the styling of Dina versus Ellie? What was the approach of making sure they look different and their personalities really came across?

[Ann Foley]

Well, the game really helps with that. And the game is always going to be our bible. We go directly to the source material. In my department, the source material is always important, no matter what you're doing, whether it's a Marvel show or the video game. There's so much wonderful information there to draw on. One of the members of my team would print out every image from the game that would relate to the episode we were shooting. And then we would put it on a board so that not only me, but also the cast could reference what was happening in the game. And in the game, Dina is wearing tight jeans. She's wearing those cute little ankle boots, because Dina cares about what she looks like, and she's gonna hunt for those pieces. And Jackson, there used to be stores there at one point, and they probably took everything that was in the stores before the apocalypse happened in 2003. She found that belt in some thrift store, or she just found it in an abandoned store somewhere in Jackson. That little touch about Dina is something I always loved.

[Tara Gonzalez]

I've always thought about this too, that I'm like, if it was the apocalypse, I would raid the thrift shops, you know, so in this world, there are still people that are fashion girls. Maybe someone who's a little girly. And she probably went into those thrift shops. She got all the good stuff. And she was like, this is what I'm going to wear for the end of the world.

[Ann Foley]

100%. Like, she's a girly girl and helped show this difference between Ellie and Dina. She is going to try to always look fun and cute where Ellie is not. Ellie's more pragmatic and practical. So Ellie went out into the snow in Converse, and I remember having this conversation with Craig in episode 101. Like, really? We're gonna go out into the snow in Converse? As a costume designer, I'm like, really? Do we really wanna do this to the cast? And Bella, God bless her heart, will do anything for the character and for the show. Didn't care. But Craig wanted to show this arc where Dina says to her when they're getting ready to leave for Seattle, I love the Converse. I love the commitment, but you're not wearing those. We're gonna get you into some boots now. And thank God that happened because we needed that shift to happen for Seattle, just also because of what was gonna be happening with all the stunts and the horse riding. So that's the other part of my job, is practicality. And how is this costume gonna work with the requirements from the stunt department from vfx? You have to figure out all the puzzle pieces.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Totally. I really loved the Converse in the snow detail because my boyfriend actually has worn Converse in the snow before. So this is something that some people do.

[Ann Foley]

Ellie is that person.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Exactly. It makes sense. I was reading online that you had them doodle and sketch onto the Converse as their character. I thought that that was such a cool little detail. And how did you decide that you were going to do that?

[Ann Foley]

It's one of my favorite costume moments in the show, to be perfectly honest. Even though as an audience member, you're not really going to see it. But when I was watching the playthrough of the game, I have a 15 hour playthrough that I watch. I was always obsessed with the doodles in the journal, and I would hit pause and I would try to see what it was that Ellie was doodling in there. And then I pitched this idea to Craig early on in prep about, well, maybe Ellie's doodling in other places as well. And he loved the idea that Ellie was doodling on her shoes. So I gave Bella a pair of the Converse, and I said, do what you want. Channel Ellie and doodle on these. And I got them back like a month later. And I never even asked Bella what some of those doodles meant, because I felt it was between Ellie and Bella. And again, this is one of those really cool little details that help the actor with their character, because every morning that Bella would put those on, they would see, you know, the doodles on the sneakers. The audience might not have seen them, but Bella knew they were there, and that's what was important.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Yeah. I also wanted to mention Catherine Oharas character, Gayle the therapist, because despite the circumstances, she always looks. And I'd love to hear how you developed her style specifically, which made sense with the story, but it just also felt, like, so distinct.

[Ann Foley]

Yeah. My fittings with Catherine o' Hara were amazing, as one would assume they would be. And they were one of the highlights for me on the Show. I have been a huge fan of Catherine's forever. She is so committed to character and understands character and really understands clothes. I've never met anyone who wears clothes like Catherine o' Hara. She's in Gap jeans and a Banana Republic sweater, but she might as well be wearing Runway pieces because she still looks sophisticated and elegant no matter what you put her in. So we had several conversations about who Gail was and why she wears what she wears. Gail is in denial about multiple aspects of the world. And she's also very angry, as we see in that scene with Joel, about what happened with Eugene. And what I loved about the production design and set deck, specifically in episode one, was Gale and Eugene's house. That really informed me as to who this person is. She and Eugene have clearly been in this house for a very long time, maybe even before 2003. So these clothes were Gail's clothes before the apocalypse happened. So, of course, Gail's going to take care of her own stuff. And everything she wore was pretty timeless, so that it didn't stand out as something that just could have been purchased last week. That's one of the reasons why she looks as put together as she does, because if this was her house, then she is gonna be a little more put together than your typical Jackson citizen. Because there's a lot of refugees coming into Jackson. They still all look like they belong to Jackson, but we wanted to separate them out a little bit.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Yeah. So was that something that you were thinking of for all the characters initially, being like, okay, how are they getting the clothing that they're wearing?

[Ann Foley]

100%. But because Jackson is a functioning community with water, with power, we needed to show that visual difference as well. Because season one was a roadshow that was Joel and Ellie on the road going from one QZ to the next. And QZs were not functioning societies. That was survival at its very base, complete and utter survival. So the closed season one were supposed to be dirtier and more ragged, where Craig and Neil really wanted to show Jackson as a functioning, thriving community. So everything had what we lovingly referred to as the Jackson patina. So love that everything got over dyed with this really warm tone and would be broken down, but no, like, big holes and just a little, like, ragged around the edges sometimes, but not completely trashed, because people really take care of their clothes in Jackson. So we wanted to show that difference between how Jackson is surviving. In episode one, you also see the wagon full of refugees coming in, and they're all. All ragged and dirty and bundled up with Every piece of clothing they own, because you take care of your clothes and you just don't toss them unless you can't wear them anymore. In this world, you don't throw really anything away.

[Tara Gonzalez]

And to talk about the brands that were around in this timeline, Levi's and Carhartt, how did you decide which brands you're going to zone in on as ones that you would be using for this kind of established aesthetic? And was there an element in particular that you looked for when you were deciding? I'd love to hear about that process.

[Ann Foley]

It's kind of a little bit of everything. I really wanted to stay true to that classic vibe and also stay true to brands that were around in our time period. So Carhartt was so generous with us and giving us a lot of great pieces. The other great thing about Carhartt is, and anyone who owns it knows this, really hard to break that stuff down.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Ann Foley]

And that stuff is meant to last forever. So we had a lot of the people in the town working on rebuilding, wearing Carhartt pieces, but there were also a bunch of smaller brands trying to just create this vibe, but again, just keeping it classic. For example, in episode one, when you see the stalker, that stalker's wearing a Gap eyelet blouse that we found. Going back to what I had said earlier about having a visceral reaction, Craig really wanted it to be normal. So we picked this blouse. So that when you see this monster coming at you in this blouse that anyone would have worn.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Ann Foley]

With the jeans, they had flares at the bottom like they would have in the late 90s, early 2000s. God knows I had a hundred pairs of those kind of jeans. You could relate to it. You could really understand and see, like, oh, my God, this was a person before she became this monster that we're seeing. And that is that sort of visual storytelling that is so important to this show and trying to stay true to those kind of pieces, whether it's on a clicker, whether it's on Joel or Ellie or Dina, help us move this forward and tell the story.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Yeah. I think also Levi Zang, Carhartt and Gap, those are the brands that would withstand the apocalypse. Like, I feel like those are the brands made to last. And so as a fashion person, watching the show and knowing that those were a lot of the brands, and I was like, actually, that really does make sense. Because if it was the apocalypse, I don't know if my Miu Miu mini skirt would be making it out.

[Ann Foley]

Probably not. Probably not. But the car heart, I Would say, yeah, have some Carhartt, even some of the work in progress Carhartt standing by in case the apocalypse happens.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Yeah, exactly. And to kind of also talk about, like, signature pieces or special pieces, to just go back to Joel for a second. One of his really significant items of clothing was in both seasons, of course, it was a signature Flint and Tinder jacket. So I'd kind of love to hear about how that became a signature piece and knowing that you wanted to bring it into season two. Like, why was that so important?

[Ann Foley]

You identify that jacket with Joel because it became such an iconic piece of his costuming from season one. And I'm a firm believer in whatever serves the story is what we need to do. And what. When I read the script for episode three, Ellie goes to Joel's house, goes upstairs to the closet and sees Joel's coat. And I think in the script, it might have been his leather coat or it might have been something else. But I knew it had to be that Flint and Tinder jacket because everybody knows that jacket, and Joel has worn it all through episode one. You want to feel what Ellie is feeling as an audience member. Ellie is clearly broken in that moment. When I watched it, it broke me as well, because you can almost feel Joel in that jacket. I think that is helping to further the story in that moment. And Pedro agreed as well. We had a big conversation about it, and it's fitting. Like, which piece do you think is the important piece to bring back? And I said that I thought it was the Flint and Tinderjack. And he agreed, even though he wouldn't necessarily be wearing something that flimsy. Pedro also understood Joel would do that. He doesn't really care. And it really helped further the visual storytelling.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Totally. And I think, you know, it kind of goes back to what you were just saying at the beginning, where so much of this is rooted in reality. That's the reality of the situation, that people have jackets, have signature pieces that they love and then wear, even if it's too cold for that jacket.

[Ann Foley]

I know people that wear jackets like that in the snow. I mean, then we had Ellie wearing her coat Converse in the snow as well. So, again, thank God, because it was real and it just made sense. And it really made for a very powerful scene when Ellie is at Joel's house.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Yeah, it hurt.

[Ann Foley]

It did. And it was supposed to. It was designed that way.

[Hilary Kerr]

Yes.

[Tara Gonzalez]

And it was designed very well. So I know you've mentioned a little bit, too, about the infected characters. That was also, like you said, a completely Different Beast. And you did such a great job characterizing those. I wonder if you have any other examples that are your favorites from, like, the Infected characters.

[Ann Foley]

There's a couple things that I loved. For example, the attack on Jackson with the Horde. We really focused on trying to make sure that all of the Infected in that Horde not only had pattern and color on them so that you could see them pop out from the snow, we didn't want them disappearing in the snow. But it was also important, palette wise, to keep red out of the Infected because Tommy was in his red plaid coat. And I wanted the audience to be able to spot Tommy in the middle of all that chaos. And when Maria is up on the roof and she's looking down at Tommy as the Horde is coming into Jackson, she needs to be able to see him along with us. You can spot him in all of that chaos, which is one of the things that I love most about that coat. When I was putting my Tommy boards together, I came across this image of the Marlboro man on horseback in deep snow. And I was like, that's Tommy.

[Tara Gonzalez]

That's so fun.

[Ann Foley]

Yes, I know. I was like, that's so great. And he was wearing this really great shearling leather coat. I think it was wool and shearling and leather. That was where my initial inspiration came from. And the second I laid eyes on that plaid, I just knew immediately that that was for Tommy and that was Tommy's coat. And then we built it in house. I had a fantastic Italian tailor named Savino. He made that jacket for Gabe.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Amazing. Such a good one.

[Ann Foley]

And I think my other favorite was when Ellie and Dina are down in the subway. And that's the second hoard that we see in that clicker down there in the subway car. And he's wearing this really great 90s band t shirt, you know, some sort of a flannel over it, which was very sort of grunge Seattle from the 90s.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Totally.

[Ann Foley]

And then we have another wearing a Seattle Loggers sweatshirt. Those are fun little moments that give the Infected their own personality. Every single one of the Infected came in for their own fitting, and we would try to figure out who is this person before they got bit. Wow. And so trying to give them their own little backstory.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Ann Foley]

And I loved that Craig and Neil let me do that, because it keeps them more grounded and scarier when you can relate to their clothes and what they're wearing. Yeah, that makes it scarier, totally. Because you're like, oh, God, that could have been me. Or it could have been my friend who's really into band T shirts.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Absolutely. Or really likes Gap eyelet blouses. You're like, that could have been my girl.

[Ann Foley]

Exactly.

[Tara Gonzalez]

I know we obviously talked about a lot of looks, but was there something we haven't touched on? A look or maybe a character or anything that you are particularly proud of this season or details that people might have missed or. Or anything like that?

[Ann Foley]

Well, I did love the Seraphites. When I heard about the Seraphites, I thought, this is an incredible design opportunity. I can't wait to dive into this because they were so scary. They were so interesting in the game. Just terrifying in the game. When I was watching the playthrough, I couldn't wait to take a crack at this. And Craig and Neil are very cool about. Yeah, we know that this was what was in the game, but we want to see your take on this business.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Oh, nice.

[Ann Foley]

So they really let me take it and run with it. And I did work with Ashley Swatowski at Naughty Dog, who's one of the game designers. She was on the team that helped develop the Seraphites. And Imogene Chayes, who's my concept artist, said the three of us had multiple conversations about how did you guys get to where you got at Naughty Dog with the Seraphim rights and what was your stopping point and why? And we would take all of this information and then move forward with our designs. There isn't a lot of information in that part. I think we'll hopefully find out more later about who the Seraphites are and what drives them. But what we do know at this point is that they're a very Luddite community. They are a religious sect. They make their own tools, they make their own weapons, they make their own clothes. And in the game, the Seraphite men, the warriors, were wearing raincoats. But I felt that just didn't feel believable. They would probably make something, so maybe a poncho, because that feels practical for the Pacific Northwest. Plus, the Seraphites are close to that marina that we see in episode seven where Ellie steals the boat. So maybe they got canvas off an old boat and they created these cool ponchos. So when you look at the ponchos, you see different blocks of color. And, like, they got canvas from this place, and they took canvas from another place, and then everything is hand stitched, and then my team hand painted the Seraphite symbol on the back of each poncho. So every single Seraphite has their own custom poncho. With their own personalized seraphite symbol.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Amazing.

[Ann Foley]

Yeah.

[Tara Gonzalez]

So cool. And to kind of wrap things up, this is maybe a funny question, but I was wondering, as you were obviously doing all of the costume design for all of these characters, did you ever once think, like, what would I be wearing if I put into this apocalyptic situation? And if so, what would it be?

[Ann Foley]

Oh, yeah, no. I got a couple pairs of Carhartt pants and wore them constantly. I became a huge fan of Carhartt and Levi's during this, so they were so comfortable and they still are. I brought them with me to Australia on my current job. So, yeah, I love Carhartt.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Amazing. I'm gonna start, like, going into my boyfriend's closet and stealing all of his Carhartt pants and be like, listen, these are the durable, can stand an apocalyptic situation pants.

[Ann Foley]

So, oh, yeah, I bought a pair and gave them to my breakdown team because I was like, can you you break these down for me? It took a week, and so that stuff is made to last for sure. Yeah.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Amazing. Love this. Everyone out there, you heard it here first. Car, heart, pants you can have forever, no matter what.

[Ann Foley]

100%.

[Tara Gonzalez]

Well, thank you so much again for joining me. Love your work and it was just so incredible to hear all of the stories and the process behind everything.

[Ann Foley]

Thank you.

[Hilary Kerr]

A huge thank you to senior fashion and social media editor Tara Gonzalez and costume designer Ann Foley. Make sure to subscribe to our show wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss an episode. And while you're there, I'd also be so grateful if you'd rate and review us. If you have any guest suggestions or any other feedback, drop us a line at podcastwhowhatwear.com or you can find us on social at whowhatwere. See you next Wednesday on the who what where Podcast. This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hammeris, and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Claire Schmidt. Our editor is co Takasuki Chernovin. Our audio engineers are at Glen Canyon Audio, and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.