Eddie Outlaw (3:02)

First I noticed his big bright eyes. He had this huge smile. He just beamed.

Afwa Hirsch (3:09)

This is Eddie Outlaw from Jackson, Mississippi.

Eddie Outlaw (3:12)

In the us I went down to the Peabody Hotel in downtown Memphis to the salon and spa there where my friend Kirsten worked. She wasn't there that day, but Justin was at the front desk. I was definitely. I was struck right there.

Afwa Hirsch (3:32)

Well, and this is Justin.

Justin (3:36)

After a few moments of speaking to one another, he left and bebopped up the stairs. And I remember immediately picking up the phone and calling Kiersten, wanting to know who was this guy. But as the day wore on, I got a phone call and I answered. And he very cutely asked if he could make an appointment to take me out to dinner one night. And so we went out that very night. He was that person that you just felt like you had to get to know a little more of and understand where this light was coming from.

Sarah Merrill (4:08)

It is a powerful cocktail of novelty and excitement and pleasure and euphoria. It's basically like being addicted to a drug.

Afwa Hirsch (4:20)

Sarah Merrill teaches the science of sex and attachment at Cornell University in the United States.

Sarah Merrill (4:26)

Romance is an important and frankly necessary part of what we scientifically call call infatuation. They are both universal experiences for humans across time and across the globe. From a neurochemical perspective, really, this is driven by dopamine, and it's really the motivational part of the reward system that pushes us towards that goal and is the part that is about energy and excitement and what we think of as desire and passion and is also highly involved in our motor system that allows us to move and actually propels us forward.

Afwa Hirsch (5:12)

We may not think of romance as a chemical experience, but science shows that it is universally hardwired into our biology. So what about the cultural expectations that go along with these feelings? Why do so many of us associate romantic love with food, gifts or poems?

Viktor Karandashev (5:34)

The 18th and 19th centuries became known as the sentimental revolution of the modern age due to transformation of conception of love.

Afwa Hirsch (5:45)

Psychologist Viktor Karandashev has spent his life studying answers to these questions. Now at Aquinas College, Michigan in America, he's the author of Race Romantic Love in Cultural Contexts.

Viktor Karandashev (5:58)

Music, dance, poetry, books, Small gifts and flowers were the sentimental expression of love.

Afwa Hirsch (6:08)

An expression often epitomized in the work of Romantic poet Lord Byron.

Justin (6:14)

Can I forget? Canst thou forget when playing with thy golden hair how quick thy fluttering heart did move? Oh, by my soul I see thee yet with eyes so languid, breasts so fair, and lips though silent, breathing love.

Viktor Karandashev (6:36)

So since that time, romantic love is closely associated with something idealistic, something beautiful. So this is the origin and the modern understanding of romantic love. Culture is what makes passionate love romantic.

Kiru Taye (6:58)

Why is it that I never See African couples in these romance novels, and I kind of ask myself, is it that we don't fall in love? Is it that we're not romantic?

Afwa Hirsch (7:09)

Kiru Taye grew up in Nigeria and is the author of more than 20 romance novels. She was frustrated with the exclusively western white characters in romance fiction and left her business career to write her own stories.

Kiru Taye (7:23)

I remember having a conversation with my friends and, you know, we kind of joke about it because some African women will say, well, who wants flowers? You know, it's like, you know, it's like these flowers gonna feed me or whatever. So in terms of contextually, romance might be slightly different for an African to a European woman, but it doesn't mean that there isn't romance. And I wasn't seeing that in those books. I wanted to read stories that reflected my own experiences and the experiences of people that I knew.

Afwa Hirsch (7:50)

So can you give us any examples of things that you've been able to create through your writing that kind of represent an African version of romance? Okay.

Kiru Taye (7:58)

It's called His Treasure and it's my first published book and set in pre colonial West Africa. Okay. So today everybody was dressed in their finest regalia. Adaku was dressed in her best, too. Her final choice, a fabric. A surprise to even her. She'd had an eye on a new fabric displayed in the market a few weeks ago. Obina had agreed she could make the purchase. However, when she'd awoken the other day to find the most beautiful fabric next to her in bed, she'd known there was only one choice. It was woven with rich red and gold threads and felt soft to the touch. She wondered how Obinna acquired it. She'd never seen a more intricate design of fabric before. So she's asked her husband for money to buy some fabric, but he's actually ordered for a special fabric to be woven for her. That's. That's romantic. That's. That's special.

Afwa Hirsch (8:59)

No, I can. I can relate to that. I mean, that would be a real turn on. Much more than somebody buying you a bunch of flowers that eventually are going to die and then you're going to have to sweep up the dead petals and throw them away. And then it's just another. Another job to do. So I think that's actually really romantic.

Kiru Taye (9:16)

It is, it is, it is.

Afwa Hirsch (9:17)

We are speaking to Kiru at her mum Chris house. That's an interesting shape. Flower beds in the middle.

Kiru Taye (9:24)

Well, that's the heart and that was devised by my husband and we got.

Afwa Hirsch (9:29)

Talking about her experience growing up In Nigeria in the 1960s, romance is not.

Kiru Taye (9:35)

The for thing, if you like. It's not really. I mean, people get married without what is romance. You get married, you get married, and, you know, you are expected to get married. And romance was something that developed within the marital home. And as a teenager in the 60s, I did experience it. I mean, holding heart, believe you me, holding hand meant a lot. That's romance.

Eddie Outlaw (10:13)

I still remember the first time Justin and I held hands. I think it was in New Orleans on Bourbon Street. There's one end of Bourbon street where there's a collection of gay bars and they kind of settle into each other. The same gate, the same posture. Eventually a hand finds the other.

Afwa Hirsch (10:37)

And what does it mean to you? Why do you value being able to hold hands?

Eddie Outlaw (10:43)

We didn't grow up with the ability to do that. My personal experience is that having grown up in that small Mississippi Delta town feeling like you don't belong in a certain place, I think the worst thing for me was not being able to see anyone like myself. Not only did I not have a positive image in television and film, but I couldn't point across the room to anyone like me. So something as simple as holding hands or even leaning into each other.

Kiru Taye (11:18)

It'S.

Eddie Outlaw (11:18)

Something that I didn't have or couldn't experience for so long.

Afwa Hirsch (11:27)

Eddie and Justin are proud that they've created their own version of love and romance set within the sometimes hostile atmosphere of America's deep South. But are we too quick to associate romance with heterosexual Western norms? It can seem as if Western culture has a monopoly on the concept of romance.

Viktor Karandashev (11:47)

Actually, it is not true. The idea, if not the word, of romantic love was known for centuries. Viktor Karandashev again in particular, romance of love. In ancient Egypt, the great pharaohs built marvelous temple and tombs for their beloved as symbols of their feelings. And love. Poems depicted activities such as achieving the best fish for your beloved one as well as worship of the beloved one.

Afwa Hirsch (12:21)

Oh, my God, my lotus flower, I love to go and bathe before you. I allow you to see my beauty in a dress of the finest linen drenched with fragrant unguent. I go down into the water to be with you and come up to you again With a red fish looking splendid on my fingers. I place it before you.

Eddie Outlaw (12:45)

I think, romantically speaking, we've kind of gone from a very passionate pass the dough blade to kind of a slow and steady waltz.

Afwa Hirsch (12:57)

Eddie and Justin have now been together for 15 years.

Eddie Outlaw (13:00)

I was an established hairdresser and had money to burn when we Met and, you know, a romantic gesture would be planning a five course dinner for the two of us with wine pairings. You know, these days it might be me finding a sale on socks, which Justin is very fond of, and coming home with a bag full of. And from time to time he'll sneak home from Whole Foods with my favorite fish.

Justin (13:27)

As far as romance goes, I mean, it is still very important to Eddie and I. I mean, that. That need to connect, the need to step out of our everyday life and. But together, and it holds that bond and that bind to one another.

Afwa Hirsch (13:44)

What would humanity look like without romance?

Sarah Merrill (13:49)

Well, I think that we would find that sex would still be rewarding in a very similar fashion, but that we wouldn't necessarily have the same impetus to be in relationships and maintain those relationships. And I believe that that is really at the core. What evolutionarily is important about courting and romance is that it keeps us together. And the reason that that has an evolutionary significance is that we as a species have altricial young, which means that our babies, our infants, are helpless. They can't even pick their heads up by themselves. So because they are so helpless and they need constant care, having a bi parental system from an evolutionary perspective in is very helpful. So whether or not you're actually, as an individual having a child, the fact that those children needed this care thousands and thousands of years ago is what is determining these brain mechanisms. But you absolutely can have passion and desire or romance and that kind of excitement in your relationship as time goes on.

Kiru Taye (15:14)

You guys are supposed to be walking.

Eddie Outlaw (15:15)

Out 15 years ago. We never thought we'd see it in our lifetime. We just hoped that things would get better, that, you know, we would work hard and keep our heads down and not make a fuss.

Afwa Hirsch (15:28)

Okay.

Kiru Taye (15:28)

On behalf of Justin and Eddie, I'd like to welcome you to the joining.

Sarah Merrill (15:32)

Of these two hearts in marriage.

Justin (15:35)

Our wedding was so special. I mean, everything about it. Eddie and I touched and had a hand in.

Kiru Taye (15:42)

And Eddie, will you have Justin to.

Afwa Hirsch (15:44)

Be your husband, your soulmate, and your one true love?

Eddie Outlaw (15:47)

I will.

Justin (15:48)

It's still the most special day of my life.

Kiru Taye (15:50)

By the power vested in me by.

Afwa Hirsch (15:52)

The state of California, I now pronounce your husbands.

Kiru Taye (15:55)

Kiss your husband.

Afwa Hirsch (16:02)

Is this kind of a timeless, eternal fact, the way that we our bodies and our minds process romance? Or is it something that you can see changing in the future?

Sarah Merrill (16:13)

These are systems that are in our brains and will be in our brains, I think, forever. However, how we choose our partners, the pools in which we have to choose our Partners is significantly different.

Afwa Hirsch (16:30)

Dating apps and websites have completely transformed the romantic landscape. People can now choose from thousands of potential partners from all over the world. So, for the millennial, is there still a place or even the time for romance? I went to a singles event in central London to find out.

Kiru Taye (16:49)

Hello. Hi.

Afwa Hirsch (16:51)

You must be Jodie.

Eddie Outlaw (16:52)

Hi.

Kiru Taye (16:53)

I love.

Afwa Hirsch (16:54)

There's a lot of chairs set out in a circle, big gap in the middle. There's a board on every seat. Can you tell me what's going on here?

Jordie Sinclair (17:02)

Yes. We are having our awesome singles life drawing class.

Afwa Hirsch (17:07)

Life drawing?

Jordie Sinclair (17:07)

Life drawing. Yeah. It's just a lot of fun.

Afwa Hirsch (17:11)

Jordie Sinclair is the CEO of Smudged Lipstick and is running tonight's event.

Jordie Sinclair (17:16)

We started the company so that people could meet each other and get to know someone for who they actually are via something fun, which is the way it always used to be back in the days before the whole landscape changed with technology.

Afwa Hirsch (17:30)

So everybody's just getting ready for the drawing class to begin. Now they're helping themselves to pencil. Everybody's maybe slightly anxiously kind of leaving their comfort zone and going to sit next to a complete stranger. Can we ask you how it's going to be? Yeah, it's really interesting.

Sarah Merrill (17:46)

I've tried dating apps and I haven't.

Afwa Hirsch (17:48)

Got on very well with them. So I thought, I like the idea.

Sarah Merrill (17:50)

Of coming to an activity where it.

Afwa Hirsch (17:52)

Wasn'T so much pressure.

Sarah Merrill (17:54)

Everyone's looking for that certain tick list. If you don't meet the tick list, that's it, you're out. Even without trying.

Afwa Hirsch (18:00)

Oh, God.

Sarah Merrill (18:01)

Well, I'm on all the dating apps.

Afwa Hirsch (18:02)

I went through a phase of being.

Sarah Merrill (18:03)

Very excited by them. When I first moved to London, I.

Afwa Hirsch (18:06)

Was like, oh, my God, look how many men there are.

Jordie Sinclair (18:10)

I mean, my idea of romance was that the girl of my dreams would swan in somewhere and they'd completely suck the air out of my lungs as soon as I saw them. And that was my goal. But I did actually download my first dating app about two weeks ago. I know mostly because of my time. I just don't have the time at the moment to really focus as much as I'd like to meeting people organically. So I thought, you know what, Everybody's doing it, so I've got to give it a try.

Granger Supplies Advertiser (18:46)

So I think there's probably been two really significant transitions in the last 4 million years that have affected human courtship and relationships.

Afwa Hirsch (18:55)

Justin Garcia is an evolutionary biologist and sex researcher from Indiana university in the.

Granger Supplies Advertiser (19:00)

U.S. one being the agricultural revolution. The somewhere between 8 and 12,000 years ago, the shift from hunter and gathering type societies to more sedentary agricultural changed the types of resources that people had that were involved in their transactions, in their relationships. Relationships and courtship processes were tied to other types of social and economic factors. Other major transition. I think that we're just really beginning to understand how it's influencing the way we connect for good and bad. Is the Internet in the US in our Big Singles in America study, we found that more people met their most recent first date through a website or a dating app than any other category. More than friends, than church, than school. That's totally new. It's new in terms of millennia of dating and mating processes. It does fundamentally change the rules and the process by which we engage in courtship.

Afwa Hirsch (20:01)

Would you say we still live in a romantic age?

Viktor Karandashev (20:06)

You know that to say honestly, the allure of romance has declined since now many people are less idealistic and more pragmatic. Some people, including my daughter and granddaughter, do not like my using the word romantic. I believe that in the western culture some estrangement of love and sex occurs. The word sexy dominate in the modern language of the world. Beautiful. And much more frequently than before. Except if we'll stretch the term romantic to something else. Romantic intimacy and romantic commitment. Many young people how to combine the delight of passionate love with security and intimacy in their romantic relationship. So in this case, we can say that romantic age is ending. But maybe romantic age is ending. In our traditional interpretation, the romantic love may be just different in the near future than it was before.

Afwa Hirsch (21:13)

But just how different might it be in the distant future? Will advances in artificial intelligence make romance something we could artificially reproduce? Scientist Sarah Merrill again, I think so.

Sarah Merrill (21:27)

This is completely hypothetical because I don't actually know. But in my best guess, I would say if we could, as scientists, determine the exact cocktail, we could probably mimic the intense excitement, mental cognitive overload, feeling of infatuation. I do not believe that we could mimic the feelings of attachment exactly because there is not all infatuations become attachments. And exactly why that is is not entirely clear to scientists at this point.

Afwa Hirsch (22:11)

Kind of relieved to hear you say that, because I think we like to think of romance as being something slightly mystical and otherworldly. And it's almost a relief to know it can't completely be boiled down to an equation or a formul.

Sarah Merrill (22:24)

Yes, and there is something about the idea of love. And love conquers all. And love is this magical mystical thing which working in an attachment lab with neurochemistry can really ruin for you.

Afwa Hirsch (22:42)

I'M afwa Hirsch and you've been listening to the why Factor. The producer was Rose de Larabety. You can listen again to this program on the website bbcworldservice.com yfactor and discover other editions on subjects including why we talk to ourselves and why we kiss. We'd love to hear your suggestions of ideas for the program. Email us@yfactorbc.com.

Justin (23:15)

One of the most remaining things that Eddie's ever done and one of the things that I cherish the most, it actually sits by my nightstand, is when we first started seeing one another. Eddie had bought this beautiful notebook that it was handmade paper and one day I picked it up and there were love letters that he had written to me. And it wasn't with any acknowledgement. It wasn't, you know, him, look what I got and look what I'm doing. It was just this thing that was his that, you know, that then became mine. You know, I'd love to come home some days and pick it up and see if he had written in it. And he didn't always, but when he did, it was so special. And more than any trip we've ever taken or any gift he's ever given me that tangible reminder of our love back then and where it has gone now. And that's just very special to me.

Afwa Hirsch (24:20)

Thanks for listening to the Y Factor. If you'd like to hear more episodes, there's a wide range of options on our website. Visit bbcworldservice.com yfactor and other world service programmes such as More or Less, which looks at numbers in the news and are available to download at www.BBC.com.

Justin (24:41)

At.

BBC Announcer (24:42)

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