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- [00:00]
Alex Wagner
Runaway country is brought to you by Green Chef. Are you annoyed with misleading healthy meals? Are you tired of locking in for another New Year's trend? Well, Green Chef cuts through the noise as the trusted authority in clean eating, delivering only real farm sourced ingredients. Trust every bite with over 40 clean, customizable weekly recipes designed to give you peace of mind. Every Green Chef box delivers certified organic produce and responsibly sourced proteins and seafood. That means avoiding ultra processed fillers. Take control of your health without the stress. Let Green Chef do the research, meal planning and grocery shopping. You can enjoy low prep, low mess meals for every lifestyle. Plus make your habits better for the planet. Green Chef cuts food waste by 20% versus grocery shopping and offsets 100% of delivery emissions. I got my first Green Chef delivery and it came in a nice brown paper bag.
- [00:54]
Kurt Andersen
What?
- [00:54]
Alex Wagner
What? And it was really delicious. People in my household were honestly surprised. They were like, mom, what are all, what is that? What are you doing? And I said, just wait till you try this beef, children. And they loved it for real. They're very picky and it was less of a mess. I'm a messy chef, but less of a mess than usual. So head to greenchef.com 50Alex and use the code 50Alex to get 50% off your first month. Then 20% off for two months with free shipping. That is code 50alex@greenchef.com 50Alex Simone Sanders.
- [01:34]
Sarah Longwell
Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House and I reported on it. And now we're friends and colleagues. And on our new podcast, Ms. Now presents Clock It.
- [01:47]
Alex Wagner
We are positioning ourselves at the intersection.
- [01:49]
Sarah Longwell
Of culture and politics. Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it too.
- [01:56]
Kurt Andersen
Ms. NOW presents Clock It. Listen now. Wherever you get your podcasts, new episodes drop Thursdays. The number one resolution for people last year was to save more money, but nearly half gave up by February. Don't let that be you. Download Rocket Money to reach your financial goals this year. Track your spending, cut waste, and automate savings in one simple app. Rocket Money shows you all your expenses and categorizes them so you know exactly where your money's going and where you're overspending. From there, the app cuts waste by canceling your unused subscriptions and lowering your bills. No customer service needed. With that money freed up, the app will automatically set some cash aside for your goals, whether it's an emergency fund, paying off debt or saving for vacation. Rocket Money's got you covered. Users love the app with over 186,000 five star ratings. And on average, users can save up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Make saving money a priority this year. Go to rocketmoney.com cancel to get started. That's rocketmoney.com cancel rocketmoney.com cancel.
- [03:05]
Alex Wagner
Hello everyone. It has been a big week for some very bad people. Ghislaine Maxwell, convicted co conspirator to child sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein, has been in federal prison for the past four years, which you probably know, only occasionally popping up to try and leverage her criminal knowledge to her own advantage. And we'll have more on that in a second. On Monday, Maxwell appeared before the House Oversight Committee, which is looking into the federal government's own investigation of Epstein, who in 2019 died in prison, quote, unquote. And yeah, I'm going to say it like that until someone convinces me otherwise. Ms. Maxwell revealed exactly nothing to the committee. She pleaded the fifth to every single question that was asked. Instead, her lawyer said Maxwell, quote, would answer questions if she were granted clemency by President Trump. That is, in exchange for swearing to Trump's innocence. Maxwell wants out of prison. This is not how the justice system works. Unless you're talking about the Trump justice system. Remember that when the committee began seeking Maxwell's deposition a few months ago, Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general and Trump's former personal lawyer, interviewed Maxwell in her maximum security prison, where she told Blanche that Trump had been an absolute gentleman during the Epstein years. Trump really must have appreciated that, because soon after, Ghislaine Maxwell was moved to a minimum security prison where inmates can play with puppies and do arts and crafts. And while Trump might have preferred that Maxwell's jailhouse character reference be the end of the Epstein saga, it was not. It is not. Last Friday, the Department of justice, responding to a congressional order, though a month late, released an avalanche of Epstein Records, over 3 million emails and videos and photos of from Epstein's archives. Reporters are just beginning to sift through this mountain of information, but what's clear is that the Epstein scandal did not just encompass a handful of rich men debasing and abusing young women and children. Jeffrey Epstein's web of influence and connections was vast, touching nearly every corner of government, finance, politics and academia. Not all of these people were involved in Epstein's sex ring, but these new files reveal a corrupt sphere of influence With Jeffrey Epstein at the very center. President Donald Trump appears in the Epstein files an eye popping 38,000 times. But you will also see mentions of Steve Bannon and Elon Musk and Trump's Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick. That would be the same Howard Lutnick who swore he had nothing to do with Epstein after the year 2005. Until these files, the new ones confirm that Lutnick had lunch with Epstein on his private island and started business ventures with him, literally years after Epstein had been convicted of soliciting prostitution from a child. The web of connections between some of the most powerful people in our society and one of the most depraved is perhaps the most stunning revelation in this new batch of files. And there is way, way more to come. Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna and Republican Congressman Thomas Massie, who have led the charge on releasing these files, were granted access this week to unregul redacted copies of the material. And what they found was even more suspicious. Here's Khanna on the House floor on Tuesday.
- [06:30]
Kurt Andersen
There were six wealthy, powerful men that the DOJ hid for no apparent reason. Now my question is why did it take Thomas Massie and my me going to the Justice Department to get these six men's identities to become public? And if we found six men that they were hiding in two hours, imagine how many men they are covering up for in those 3 million files.
- [06:56]
Alex Wagner
Now, other countries, other ones, as in not the United States, are demanding accountability from anyone who is in cahoots with Epstein or seen as empowering him. Over in the uk, Prime Minister Keir Starmer is facing calls to resign for appointing Peter Mandelson his ambassador to the United States last year. Despite Mandelson's close ties to Epstein. A Norwegian ambassador resigned over her contacts with Epstein, and an advisor to Slovakia's prime minister has also resigned. But over here in the Wild west, where Epstein's web ran particularly wide and extraordinarily deep, will enough Americans care for the Epstein files to finally become a political noose? I'm Alex Wagner and this week on Runaway Country. How did New York society allow a predator to operate essentially in broad daylight? How interconnected is the Epstein network and how far will the people in it go to make sure the truth never comes out? Can Democrats seize this moment to damage a wounded president and his party? They are certainly trying. This weekend, Georgia Senator Jon Ossoff called the Trump administration by a brand new name.
- [08:09]
Kurt Andersen
This is the Epstein class ruling our country.
- [08:15]
Alex Wagner
What does this all mean for the president's political capital and his party's chances in an election year. The bulwarks. Great. Sarah Longwell will join me to give her thoughts on all that coming up.
- [08:26]
Sarah Longwell
There's basically two types of people in Trump's administration. People who are in the Epstein files and people who are actively covering up the Epstein files. And like that's it.
- [08:37]
Alex Wagner
But first we wanted to get the skinny from an expert in New York City society, someone who watched Epstein esque alliance's form in the late 90s and early 2000s and has documented all of it with a gimlet eye. So I'm going to be talking to Kurt Anderson, journalist, author, WNYC radio host and co founder of the legendary Spy magazine about what the world of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and Donald Trump and Bill Clinton looked like when all this shit was going down. To better understand how these alliances formed, what might break them, and whether we will ever get to the bottom of all of this, here's my conversation with Kurt. Kurt, thank you for doing this. When I was digesting this latest tranche of and tranche is probably the wrong this mountain of Epstein related evidence, I just, the thing that struck me was, you know, we have focused, I think rightly so, on the stories of sexual predation and abuse and the victims and they should always remain at the center of the conversation. But what has been exposed in this batch in particular is the vastness of Epstein's now network and the degree to which it represents, I think, probably the most reprehensible parts of society and is very much a picture of New York wealth and power. And I was like, who could help me understand how this all works? But Kurt Anderson. So I want to neither wealth nor power. A trusted and brilliant chronicler of that swillpot Manhattan and the denizens thereof. Jon Ossoff has been using a term that a lot of people have been thrown around this week called and it is the Epstein class. When you hear the Epstein class as a phrase, what, what comes to mind, who and what do you think of?
- [10:31]
Kurt Andersen
It's a good question. I mean, it's interesting because it's not just fellow rich people, right? I mean it's not poor people or even very many middle class people. But it's not just, you know, Steve Schwarzman or whatever or maybe not even Steve Schwarzman at all. I don't want to taint anyone, but it's people who his pal, former, you know, show business publicist to the stars, Peggy Siegel had on her among her 30,000 names on her lists that Were so she was a, you know, was a big deal back. She was in the 90s and aughts and tens up until 2019. And she ranked those people like, you know, with many, many different rankings. So it's the upper echelons of that. It's glamorous people of academic, public, intellectual, you know, show business, finance stripes, you know.
- [11:30]
Alex Wagner
Well, I mean, for a lot of people who don't understand how that can happen, right, like how you can have a salon where Tommy Mottola and Deepak Chopra and Woody Allen and Soon Yi and Harvey Weinstein, setting aside the fact that they had, you know, predation in common, but that this mix of the elites would happen in these, like, Upper east side salons. Can you give us a sense of what the scene was like in the late 90s and the early 2000s in New York? I mean, the. That sort of kinetic mix of. Of those kinds of people and sort of where Trump fit into all of that.
- [12:07]
Kurt Andersen
Where Trump fit is is this question I'm still curious about because, I mean, he is like, who does not belong. He would not have been invited to Epstein's things. And I don't know if he was much. I don't think Epstein would want to mix him with the Woodies and the.
- [12:23]
Alex Wagner
Noam Chomsky of the world because he wasn't smart enough.
- [12:27]
Kurt Andersen
Well, yeah, and all he was, as has been one of his besetting resentments all these years, is he's this Bridgerton Tunnel guy, as of course Jeffrey Epstein was too. But he grew up in Queens, right. And like, they don't accept me in Manhattan. Well, I'll make them. Well, never quite did until he became president and could try to destroy their businesses if they didn't tend to like him. One of the things it's about or it's a function of and wouldn't have happened, say in the 70s. This thing that people started talking about back then, right, in the 80s and 90s, which is, oh, downtown and uptown, they're the same now. They're all blurred. It's all, you know, both are in both somewhat more show business, entertainment people mix with the financiers. It's also a function of the fact that finance itself after the 70s and 80s became less old school, Waspy Investment bank and more of these hustlers and players of various backgrounds. In that sense, more, more kindred to Mr. Jeffrey Epstein, who again, he got a job. I forget which of these Upper east side private schools, but one of them.
- [13:33]
Alex Wagner
I think it was Dalton, might have.
- [13:34]
Kurt Andersen
Been Spence One of those. Or Chapin, who knows? I mean, another prismatic milestone sign to look at about that time is Vanity Fair magazine. Natina Brown taking over and starting, effectively, Vanity Fair as this outsider, not from Queens, but from the Queen's land, from England. She decided the leprechaud and older people, because she was married to an older person, were the thing and gave it a centrality that one could argue it was in the dying stages of being important, the waspocracy of the previous years in New York City. But anyway, she decided that, no, this is it, and it's the power and glamour. It's Nancy Reagan and Ronald Reagan and all that. So that helped establish this paradigm of cool Upper east sideness. Cool in a certain, often grotesque way. And similarly, I don't know exactly when the Met gala began, but that was also part of it. Right.
- [14:38]
Alex Wagner
Like, that uptown would be a locus for, like, connections and hobnobbing and social relevance in a way that it hadn't been before. And then Epstein, with assistance, becomes a hub of that.
- [14:50]
Kurt Andersen
Yeah. And really worked it like probably no one else. He was working at, like, famous socialites, like, the women, because that was their job. Right. They were like, you know, work in the social scene as. As philanthropists and everything else. So. And he was that obviously, I mean, like, on a mega national scale, a philanthropist, which was also part of it. I mean, the people, like poor Leon Botstein. Botstein, however you pronounce his name, the president of Bard College.
- [15:20]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
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Kurt Andersen
You know, great.
- [15:21]
Alex Wagner
Who is in the Epstein files.
- [15:23]
Kurt Andersen
Well, because college presidents. What are they doing? Always raising money. So this guy is going to give me money. Yeah. I'll be nice to him.
- [15:29]
Alex Wagner
Philanthropy seems to be a big avenue by which he reaches them, but it's also like they're going to be connected to other famous people. Right. They're getting to sit down with Noam Chomsky or even Elon Musk and I guess, to some degree, Mark Zuckerberg. Everyone's there for slightly different reasons, but they love being in the presence of quote, unquote, greatness. I mean, what is also interesting to me, Kurt, and it very much feels like a before times thing, is the degree to which Epstein is very fluent in both Republican and Democratic circles. Right. And I wonder if you think that that was a hallmark of that period, that you could kind of move around it was more about wealth than it was about partisan affiliation. Because that just seems like the age of Trump has shattered all that.
- [16:11]
Kurt Andersen
Correct. Partisan affiliation was unimportant and meaningless. I mean, you know, yes, most of my friends were surly Democrats. But, like, it just didn't. Wasn't a thing that came up. Right. I mean, in that kind of go, go Clintonian neoliberal time, you know, we all agree on economics. Democrats decided mistake. You know, we're not labor. We're part of the ruling class too. Just the smarter part or something. So those distinctions is totally before times. It's hard for younger folks to imagine that politics was not an important marker. I'm not saying it didn't matter, but it didn't matter. It mattered so much less than it did. And it still mattered relatively less in the Bush era, too. I mean, people would still say, oh, Henry Kissinger's coming to dinner. I won't go. That kind of individual thing, more a.
- [17:04]
Alex Wagner
War criminal thing than a, you know.
- [17:06]
Kurt Andersen
Partisan thing, as we called him in spy magazine. Socialite war criminal Henry Kissinger. Many, many, many times.
- [17:13]
Alex Wagner
Do you feel like when you hear about who is mentioned in this. Right. Who is part of his network of. And business partners and social partners, people who would. Who would have cocktails with him and who he'd invite over for lunch, does any part of that surprise you? Are there any names, are there any characters that stick out as highly unusual and like, you sort of wonder, huh, how did he ensnare that person?
- [17:34]
Kurt Andersen
I don't know about surprise, but like, huh, like Noam Chomsky, for instance. Yeah. Like what?
- [17:40]
Alex Wagner
Hmm, Interesting.
- [17:41]
Kurt Andersen
But, you know, most of them not.
- [17:44]
Alex Wagner
He was able to forge some deeper connections with these men where they're being very vulnerable with him. Like, they're being very. And it's not just related to the women that Jeffrey Epstein was trafficking, but it's like they go to him with marital problems or they talk about the deaths of their father, or they talk about, you know, matters of the heart in a really, first of all, juvenile way, but the way in which someone who looks like he's about, you know, skin deep in terms of his real relationships with people was able to cultivate this intimacy with these captains of industry. Did that surprise you or do you have any insight into that?
- [18:20]
Kurt Andersen
Well, I would say it's. It's a different version of the, you know, salesman con man that his friend in the 90s, Donald Trump, has very different. But like that and different sales people and different con people have their own means of ingratiation. And his was, you know, obviously listening and practicing sincerity. I don't think that's part of Donald Trump's people whose job is selling something. And he was selling Himself, Right. And he was a hustler. You know, he was, you know, a version of Sammy Glick, as is Donald Trump.
- [18:56]
Alex Wagner
You were chronicling Trump in the 80s and 90s especially. But, like, had you heard in the late 90s, early 2000s, about Jeffrey Epstein? I mean, he sort of really was making an effort to ingratiate himself to high society.
- [19:06]
Kurt Andersen
Yeah.
- [19:07]
Sarah Longwell
After.
- [19:08]
Alex Wagner
Like, a little after that. But did you know him? Had you heard of him as a character in the New York story?
- [19:12]
Kurt Andersen
I heard about him from Michael Wolf.
- [19:15]
Alex Wagner
That makes sense.
- [19:16]
Kurt Andersen
Yeah, exactly. Who. Whom I have been friendly with for, you know, 25 years. It was sometime in the early aughts. And he said, do you know of this guy, Jeffrey Epstein? I said, no, tell me. I mean, he suggested to me at the time that he was skeevy ish, but nothing of the grotesque scale and magnitude. And, you know, I was also friendly with Harvey Weinstein, so I don't trust me about anything, but. But, you know, I knew he was a monster because the first time I ever met him, he. When I took over New York magazine, he asked me to lunch through my publisher. And we sat down and he just started threatening me.
- [19:54]
Alex Wagner
We hadn't done anything.
- [19:55]
Kurt Andersen
We hadn't covered him. He just started threatening me, and we'll find dirt on you and all this stuff. So that was a vision of that ugly, transactional side of this world, for sure.
- [20:07]
Alex Wagner
Right. But Jeffrey Epstein didn't threaten people. He offered them private jets. He had an emissary with a British accent who seemed like. Like she was from high society in England. And then he had Peggy Siegel doing his bidding to help curate fancy dinner parties where other famous people could meet other famous people. So in retrospect, whatever that skeeviness was, people were able to look the other way. And that's how you end up with this circle that is just so extraordinarily large and vast. And I don't know, Kurt, it's just.
- [20:36]
Kurt Andersen
It is amazing. And if you say, could put your own everybody, you know, contacts, and, like, put it through the blender to see which of these are ever mentioned in the Epstein files. I'm betting it's a lot. I mean, again, many people are mentioned. And it's just like, he turned down my dinner invitation, or I looked at his tweet. I am in the Epstein files. He was sent two of my tweets. But that's the close relationship we had. But, I mean, if you're working it as he must have worked it since the 90s for that long, you're going to have a big network and you get rich and other rich people think you're great and like, hey, this guy's a genius.
- [21:16]
Alex Wagner
Well, in the pantheon of New York characters, there are the bad guys like Jeffrey Epstein, and then there are the good guys like you, Kurt Anderson, a warrior for the side of light and truth. Even if some of your tweets are mentioned in the Epstein files. Ah, there you go, Kurt. Thank you for giving me some perspective on this, the dark side of New York City glitterati. You're a wealth of information and resources, so thank you, Kurt.
- [21:44]
Kurt Andersen
Happy to be of service.
- [21:48]
Alex Wagner
After the break, we are going to put all of this into context with the bulwarks. Sarah Longwell. Runaway country is brought to you by Miracle Made. Here's a gross fact I know you're in the market for those Traditional bedsheets can hold more bacteria than a tortoise toilet seat. And if you, like me, have two young children at home who are filthy. Well, let's just say that information sends a chill down my spine. It is definitely not what you want to lay your face on. Miracle Made bedding is designed to fight bacteria and stay cleaner longer with silver infused fabrics that actually Prevent up to 99.7% of bacterial growth. Miracle Maid sheets are crafted with NASA inspired silver infused fabric that helps regulate your body temperature. Hot sleeper, Cold sleeper. Someone who has to share your bed with children who don't want to go to bed. All of the above doesn't matter. These sheets help keep you in the comfort zone all night long. Except for the kids who kick you in the middle of the night. Thanks to their antibacterial silver technology, Miracle Made sheets stay cleaner and fresher up to three times longer than regular sheets. That means fewer odors, fewer wash cycles and way less laundry. All that hidden bacteria and regular sheets, that toilet seat vibe. Mm mm. It can clog your pores and cause breakouts. Miracle Maid's antibacterial design helps you sleep cleaner and clearer night after night. So upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. Go to trymiracle.com Alex to try miracle made sheets today you'll save over 40% and when you use promo code Alex, you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three piece towel set. They make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee, there is zero risk. That's trymiracle.com Alex Code Alex@ checkout. Thank you Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. Today's presenting sponsor is a special one really for anybody who loves democracy and a functioning presidency, but especially over here at Crooked hq. As you probably know, Obama casts a long shadow here at Crooked hq. Many of your favorite podcasters worked directly for the man. And unsurprisingly, there's a lot of excitement in the office that the Obama Presidential center officially opens this June on the south side of Chicago. Obviously, it is way more than a library. It is an entire campus. It's so awesome. Geared towards helping everyday people realize their ability to make real world change. And don't we need some positive affirmative action right now? Beyond the immersive museum exhibits, which have all kinds of really cool stuff in them, there is an athletic center, there's a theater, there's a media lab. There's a branch of the Chicago Public Library. You can check out books, including Dreams from My Father. There's a collection of brand new commissioned art. There are gonna be world class performances and original programming. Kind of like what used to happen at the Kennedy center before it became a hole in the ground called the Trump Kennedy Center. But this is really legit. The programming is legit, the exhibits are legit, the art, everything. The list is long, people. I am excited. I always like a reason to go eat a Chicago hot dog, which to my mind is the greatest hot dog in the world. Sorry, New York. And now that D.C. has become a cultural wasteland, why not head towards Chicago? Plan your Visit today@obama.org and sign up for exclusive updates and special offers. The Obama Presidential Center. Bring change home. Sarah Longwell, it is truly a pleasure to have you on this podcast.
- [25:40]
Sarah Longwell
It's a pleasure to be here. I'm so excited.
- [25:41]
Alex Wagner
I literally, like, it became a sort of a sad cycle of me saying every week, like, could Sarah Long well do the podcast? And they were like, no, she's busy this week. And I didn't like them. Even like an unrequited lover. Wow, that's a really unnecessary, necessary metaphor. I did not give up, though. My heart still beat for you being on this podcast and now it's finally all coming to fruition. I wish we were meeting under better circumstances.
- [26:09]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, yeah, I do too. Because we don't really know each other. But I will say I follow so much.
- [26:14]
Kurt Andersen
We do.
- [26:14]
Sarah Longwell
And we're on TV together. Like, we were just on TV together. But here's the thing. I was not not doing your podcast. I took like a six month break to do a project that I've had to do.
- [26:22]
Alex Wagner
Girl, you know what? Even if they twisted your arm and made you do it and you didn't want to do it.
- [26:26]
Sarah Longwell
No. I told my guys I'm back. I'm done now.
- [26:29]
Alex Wagner
I've made it so awkward. Oh my God. Okay. It's Epstein week again. Sarah.
- [26:36]
Sarah Longwell
You know, I actually, I'm glad. I know that that sounds. I'm glad it's Epstein week because I think I was worried if you listen to me with my podcasting partners, Tim and jvl, I have been long. I went from somebody who didn't care about Epstein and didn't pay attention to believing it was actually a really important story and that people should focus on it. Which I think as Democrats, we're sort of reeling from 2024 and trying to be like, well, we really, we whiffed on the economy, we whiffed on affordability. It needs to be kitchen table issues. And I'm like, don't overread. Like it does matter to voters. And I just want to open up, I think my feeling on Epstein by saying there's this sense that like somehow Epstein's not a kitchen table issue. But to me, Epstein is very much part of the story that Americans are grappling with now about like, does Trump protect elites? Does Trump not cause right now the frustration from voters is around still around affordability. And so like to the extent that Trump is getting richer through corruption, Trump is protecting his elite friends and the little guy, and in this case the young girls who were trafficked are sort of done at the expense of all of these men is part of the overall story that I feel like Democrats should be telling to voters.
- [27:50]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. And you know, I feel like we played a little bit of sound from Jon Ossoff in our introduction because he's out there on the campaign trail and he's come up with a catchphrase that I'm particularly obsessed with that I think hits all those points around corruption, affordability, elites. And he started calling them the Epstein class. The people in the White House, the administration, and to some degree the GOP are the Epstein class just as a creature of understanding what happens in voters minds and the way in which messages and language resonate or not. What do you think of that? What do you think of the label Epstein class as trying to get at that central conceit that you're talking about?
- [28:28]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, I would sort of like to call it. This is quibbling over terms because I'll just say directionally, I think Jon Ossoff, I felt like a ton of people sent that clip to me cuz they were like, he's doing the thing you keep yelling about, which is to connect Epstein to this elite culture. And again, Trump protecting elites at the expense of average people. And so I think it's great, I might call it the Epstein administration, because there's basically two types of people in Trump's administration. People who are in the Epstein files and people who are actively covering up the Epstein files. That's true. There's those two categories of people. And I feel like we should make that clear for voters.
- [29:08]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, I mean, can we talk a little bit about this week's Epstein, or I guess it was technically last Friday, but there's so many files that we're still combing through them. Every day is a new revelation. But this week's emphasis seems to be, and I say this as someone who has not been combing through all of them, but just in terms of news, I think the focus is not necessarily on the victims and the child sex trafficking as much as it is the secret cabal of elites who are working to further their own interests, you know, without any thought towards the fact that they were doing business. The center of this ring was a man who was a sex offender.
- [29:51]
Sarah Longwell
Category 3 sex offender. Category 3 is the worst kind you can be.
- [29:56]
Alex Wagner
So. So given that, I mean, I wonder if you think that sort of injects new resonance in the minds of people who might otherwise have kind of be a bit dulled to Epstein revelations. Just how vast this network is, how all encompassing it was, and the way in which, you know, they were all operating well into the 2000 and tens and beyond with Epstein, even though they knew he was a really bad fucking guy.
- [30:24]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. So when I think about voters, one of the things I always think about is like, it's less about what are you trying to get voters to think about that's brand new, versus what are you tagging into what they already know. And I think the reason that the Epstein story breaks through is that voters already think that there is an elite cabal that is sort of untethered to normal rules, laws, social norms, mores. And nothing has sort of made an example of that more than watching the casual way that so many people, billionaires and professors and all from all walks of life, but people at the highest end that average people would never have access to, how much they were all in league with each other, how much winking and nodding was going on, how much favor trading was happening, and the fact that they, they, yeah, they all know each other, go to dinners together. The way you can sort of see the way that Epstein, like, it's very clear how he reputation launders, how he's like, well, Woody Allen's gonna be here, so you should come and like brings people together. Like you can watch it happening in real time. And I think that's the, that's when something becomes the kind of thing that breaks through is not just that it's new information, but that it maps onto something that people have long believed is going on.
- [31:47]
Alex Wagner
It's like the Hillary Clinton email thing, right?
- [31:49]
Sarah Longwell
That's right. They already think you're corrupt.
- [31:51]
Alex Wagner
They think you're a secret self dealer. And here's the best example of that in terms of fallout adjacent to the actual files themselves. I'm going to list a couple of developments we saw this week and I want to know which do you think is most meaningful or needle moving? The fact that Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie spent like 15 seconds looking at the unredacted files and they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. There are six dudes in here who definitely whose names should not have been redacted and who are absolutely implicated in criminal activity. There was Ghislaine Maxwell basically, I guess, extorting the President of the United States for clemency. There's Howard Lutnick being caught in a big ass lie. There's the Miami Herald reporting that Trump admitted to knowing Epstein was getting up with teenage girls back in the year 2006. Which one of those things do you are you paying particular attention to or are you most intrigued about in terms of having a long tail?
- [32:46]
Sarah Longwell
So the thing that is most interesting to me that I would like Democrats to press on the most is Lutnick. And that may seem weird because people are like, who's this? He's not an obscure official, but he's not, he's not one of these big. He's not Pam Bondi or Cash Patel or somebody who's as much in the public consciousness. But here's why I think it matters. He tried to create a hero narrative for himself where he was like. And Trump has a hero narrative on Epstein from his supporters, right? The hero narrative on Epstein is, well, I kicked this dirtbag out of the club. I knew he was bad. And they're trying to reanimate that right now based on this report that Trump actually called the police, the police chief and said, yeah, he's a bad guy. You should get. I'm glad you're gonna get him. And Ghislaine Maxwell, she's evil. That's sort of always been Trump's hero's narrative. This is a guy who shut Epstein down when everybody else was participating with him. Lutnick's hero's narrative has fallen apart. And much like the way we get gaslit about the shooting of Alex Preddy from Stephen Miller and from Kristi Noem, this idea that all of these administration officials are lying to us, it was shown that he was lying. He knew in the statements that he gave what a creep this guy was. He made it clear when he was gave that interview where he said, I spent five minutes with the guy and.
- [34:10]
Alex Wagner
I knew what a creepy wasage table in his kitchen.
- [34:14]
Sarah Longwell
And I never talked to him again. I was like, we are getting out of here. And then it's like, oh, oh, you took your family to the island after that. Oh, you started a business with him after that. You are lying. And the reason that it matters to me is because it is similar to Trump. Trump's story on this has never added up. Trump is lying about it. And so I would like for us to press on this point that the narratives, and then it goes back to my framing of people are either in the Epstein files or they're covering up the Epstein files. Right. Is like, they're all lying to us about these things. And Trump is very much has continued to change his story about his relationship to Ghislaine Maxwell, his relationship to Epstein, and I think crumbling those hero narratives. And instead, because to me, when I see that he called the police chief and said that, you're like, oh, so you knew, right? Did you know? Because you have said in multiple public things subsequently that you had no idea when he's like, why are we still talking about this? I barely knew him. Or I wasn't. I wasn't around that. Or I told you, I kicked him out.
- [35:17]
Alex Wagner
And you're like, who among us isn't mentioned 38,000 times in those files?
- [35:21]
Sarah Longwell
Exactly. And so that to me, to me, if we can kind of get a handle on how, like, Elon. Elon's another one who had tried to say, like, well, I never went to the island and made kind of a big deal about that. And then it comes out. But you were trying to. And not in the way some other people were, where they were going there for fundraising trips or these dinners, which I'm not saying is good either, but it's different than Elon being like, hey, man, when's your next big party on the island? When is it? What's your wildest wanting? Can I come? And like, that's the part that you've really got to lean into that they.
- [35:54]
Alex Wagner
Are lying about the subtext of that, and you brought this up on your podcast, is that they know there's fucking documentation proving otherwise. But there's. This is a class of people who is so used to not having to pay any price and operating with certain impunity that it's as if they were like, I'm gonna go out here, spin my hero narrative, but the truth is never gonna come out, because of course it won't, because I'm not the piper never comes for us. And that is the most disgusting. And that's, like, not the most disgusting, but it is such a disgusting aspect of the ultra wealthy and ultra powerful, as they're saying, sense of, I guess, lawlessness. More of my conversation with Sarah right after the break. Runaway country is brought to you by Strawberry Me. Let me ask you something. You think LeBron, Patrick, Mahomes or Serena got the goat status by messing around on the court or the field? No. They had coaching. Every pro athlete has a specialized coach watching their form, calling the plays, and finding the blind spots that they can't see themselves. That's how they win championships, people. So why are you trying to win in your career without a coach? You're grinding away, hoping for promotion, trying to guess the right moves. That is amateur hour. You need a strategist. You need Strawberry Me. Strawberry Me matches you with a professional career coach who breaks down your game film. They help you negotiate that raise, navigate the politics, and execute a game plan that actually works. And the cost. Think about it. One raise, one promotion, and this coaching pays for itself 10 times over. That is the best ROI in the game. I honestly, I feel like I still need a career coach. I've been through it, y'.
- [37:37]
Sarah Longwell
All.
- [37:38]
Alex Wagner
I could have used a coach on the sidelines with the whistle, just saying, like, time out. Time out. Don't. Just. Just. Let's regroup. I think this is super cool. Plus, it's called Strawberry Me. You have anything with the name Strawberry? And I'm going to try it out. But no, really, the coaching is, I think, something we all need. I mean, generally in life and hopefully, you know, through the miracles of the 21st century and its technology. Stop riding the bench in your own life. Go to Strawberry Me, Alex, today and get 50% off your first coaching session. Strawberry Me. Because the pros don't guess. They get coached to win. Runaway country is brought to you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. One of the quiet wonders of American democracy is this. The government does not get to tell you what to believe. That principle, the separation of church and state, is not anti religion, it is pro freedom. But right now that line is being deliberately blurred by politicians who think their beliefs should be everyone's law. The Freedom from Religion foundation exists to stop that. They defend the First Amendment so that public schools, courts and governments work for all of us, believers, non believers and everyone. This is not about silencing faith. It is about stopping the government from picking favorites. If you care about democracy and pluralism and the freedom to live your own life, join them and help protect a country that belongs to all of us. Visit FFRF us newyear or text my first name a l e x to 511511 to learn more and join go to SFRF or text my name A L E X Alex to 511-511 and support the work of protecting our shared freedoms. Message and data rates may apply. You know, you talk about Trump officials who could be in trouble on this. I just think, you know, the fact that Trump may recognize some of himself in Lutnick maybe guarantees Lutnick a little bit of insurance. Right? Because like Pete Hegseth is another blow dried fucking idiot. But his life expectancy in his office, I mean that his term is pretty much ironclad because he's Trump's poodle. And Lutnick, you know, if anyone is going to pay a price, I wonder if it's not Pam Bondi. And I would draw everybody's attention to an exchange. Pam Bondi's on the Hill today as we record testifying about matters unrelated to Epstein, but of course is being asked about Epstein and this is her back and forth with Pramila Jayapal, progressive congresswoman from Washington. Let's take a listen.
- [40:17]
Sarah Longwell
I asked you Attorney General question Attorney General that I would like a question to answer which is will you turn to the survivors? This is not about anybody that came before you. It is about you taking responsibility for your Department of Justice and the harm that it has done to the survivors who are standing right behind you and are waiting for you to turn to them and apologize for what your Department of Justice is members. Members get to ask the questions.
- [40:47]
Alex Wagner
The witness get to answer in the.
- [40:49]
Sarah Longwell
Way they want to answer that. Attorney General that's not accurate, Mr. Chairman because she doesn't like the answer. So Mr. Chairman, why I have asked she asked Merrick Garland this. I'm reclaiming my will claim my time, get in the gutter for her theatrics.
- [41:10]
Alex Wagner
The gutter. I think this is such a loaded moment and not least because it's two women arguing with each other. First of all, I think a lot of women have just looked at Pambani and been like, how could you be doing this to these women? How could you have like done everything in your power to cover up the abuse that they withstood for years, the trafficking, the destruction of their childhoods? But so it's a woman at the DOJ who's the mastermind behind part of the biggest part of the COVID up. There are women in the audience, there's another woman pressing her and then the assertion that the person in the gutter is Pramila Jayapal. Fascinating political like interplay and also social, socio cultural commentary. What do you think of that and how do you think that reflects on Pam Bondi to audiences outside of Donald Trump?
- [41:56]
Sarah Longwell
Well, so, so I watched a bunch of the hearing while it was going on and Pam Bondi is being insane in this hearing. Like I've sort of never seen anything like it. It really is jarring to see how combative she's being with every single Democrat. And I mean these hearings can get sort of combative, but there's actually usually a veneer of respectability on them. But she, like many people in the Trump administration, are treating it as though it's like a Twitter. And like when you do that, it's her, her go to is to do a what about. What about is a move, right? And it's like, well what about Merrick Garland? Why didn't he do it? And it's like, this has nothing to do with your job and what you're doing. And maybe, you know, they could even answer it. Like, I don't know. There was an ongoing investigation into Ghislaine Maxwell at the time and that's why we weren't releasing it. I don't know what the answer is. I do know she is trying to obfuscate and attack. They know they are on their back foot. But your original question was like, does she pay the ultimate price? Yeah, I'm not sure because it does seem to your point about Hegseth and the fact that Signalgate wasn't aligned, like it made them all look like buffoons. Not the least of which was the fact that it also demonstrated that there are massive holes in our OPSEC around national security. But like, so if that's not aligned, Trump seems to have decided he's backing every single one of these people to the hilt. The only reason that Pam is in slightly more trouble than other people is because it's actual MAGA types coming for her because they feel lied to about the whole performative here. Give everybody a binder for your social media. And then there was nothing in it. Her saying, it's on my desk, I'm gonna do something about it. Like for a lot of MAGA types who just went deep on this. And another one is Cash Patel, who by the way, also lied. Lied in his cover up in a different hearing where he said that there, he looked at the files and that there were no other men that were trafficked to. Which has now been completely obliterated as the truth. And our boy, the Republican who is running this, I don't know, the wrestling guy. I don't know why. I'm Jim Jordan.
- [44:00]
Alex Wagner
Jim Jordan.
- [44:01]
Sarah Longwell
Jim Jordan. I usually am much better.
- [44:05]
Alex Wagner
We wouldn't be good at that. Whatever. Some guessing game where it's like, you just have one clue. I'm aggressing. Jim Rakin.
- [44:09]
Sarah Longwell
I know, but you're doing. Yeah, you're great.
- [44:11]
Alex Wagner
Maryland, Jamie Raskin.
- [44:12]
Sarah Longwell
But he said, he said you cannot lie to Congress. Like, he kind of did this preamble about how it is a crime to lie to us. And I'm like, has anybody talked to Cash Patel lately? Because it has been completely proven that he was lying. But anyway, this, this what Bondi. Bondi's, I think is like, her whole deal is, I'm gonna protect Trump come what may. And that's what he wants out of Attorney General. She's giving him everything he wants. They're firing the people who are standing in the way of the political prosecutions they wanna do. She's happy to jump on any political prosecution he wants to do. And so I don't know that he gets rid of her because she's like a heat shield for him.
- [44:50]
Alex Wagner
She is. And she has proven that she has no problem licking the bottom of the sewer if that's what he wants her to do. That's right.
- [44:56]
Sarah Longwell
That's right.
- [44:57]
Alex Wagner
But I will say the one meaningful difference, if I could, between yabos like Lutnik and Hegset, like, the bombing of, you know, fishermen in the Caribbean waters and signal gate, like, that's all bad. And it makes the administration look incompetent, if not evil, but it doesn't implicate Trump. Like, Trump's not wrapped up in it personally. And like, Lutnick is like, slightly different. He's like, adjacent to Trump in terms of the Epstein stuff. But Bondi is like in the stew of like the conspiracy around cover up and MAGA and Trump. And like, I don't. I just don't know whether his sense, Trump's own desire for sort survival and being done with this and finding a scapegoat could make him less inclined, less inclined to keep Bondi in there forever. Having said that, she does things that nobody else will do. And it's gonna be hard to find anyone with a law degree who is as, as despicable and characterless as Pam Bondi to fill the role of Attorney General. But never say never, I guess.
- [45:58]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, he could go back to Matt Gaetz, who was the original choice for this role, which, by the.
- [46:01]
Alex Wagner
Way, great on the episode. Can you imagine?
- [46:04]
Sarah Longwell
This is who was running the DOJ during the Epstein files. Like, they are being forced into this. They were forced into it by Congress. This is where, look, you're making what I think is a perfectly sensible political point, which is that at some point does Trump need a scapegoat or somebody to offer up to the altar of they mess this up. The problem is it's not really what's happening. Pam Body didn't mishandle the thing. The thing happened 12, 15, 20 years ago and it's just all coming to light and she can't stop it because of what Congress did and so she's out there spinning for him. So, like, the Epstein files kind of don't go away as long as Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna and people like Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Nancy Mace, like, who are objectively kind of just crazy MAGA people themselves. But they have been good and principled on this point.
- [46:54]
Alex Wagner
Absolutely.
- [46:55]
Sarah Longwell
Actually, they think the victims matter. And at the end there's a lot of, you know, I was saying before how I didn't really care about it, it and the whole Epstein thing. And part of it was because I tend to not go down the conspiracy rabbit holes of did Epstein kill himself? I kind of thought this was just kind of in the QAnon vein. And I wasn't invested in the whole conspiracy around Epstein killing himself, but I was invested in the reporting from Julie K. Brown about what actually happened with these young women. And I had read all of the things about Epstein and been like, this is the grossest stuff. This is like horrible and horrific. And so part of it too is I just didn't wanna engage. And like, I was like, I don't need to read any more about that. That is awful. I'm not sad that he's gone. It makes sense why he killed himself. And I kind of left it at that in my head. It was. But what changed is that it looked like accountability might be possible. It's not just that Donald Trump was involved, is that once the Trump came in and it became clear they were, like, not going to release them, you were like, well, wait a minute. You were desperate for this. Not Trump himself, though, because if you go back and start to parse it, you realize he was never as comfortable as people just assumed he wanted to do it because Cash and all those other people were out there. But, like, oh, maybe we will get accountability for the victims. Maybe we will find out that there was a bunch of other people trafficking her. Like, I kind of never believed the. The elite cabal of, like, QAnon types, and then Trump was the hero and all of that. But I do believe that there were a bunch of men who were trafficking these girls and who are trafficking. Who were allowing Epstein to invite them into his world and do this gross stuff and participate in it. And then it's clear. And this is the part I didn't anticipate that a much wider social circle of people knew about it and thought it was kind of either. Just like a funny quirk.
- [48:52]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [48:53]
Sarah Longwell
A funny harem.
- [48:53]
Alex Wagner
He travels with a harem.
- [48:55]
Sarah Longwell
Wow.
- [48:56]
Alex Wagner
Weird. You know how many?
- [48:58]
Kurt Andersen
16.
- [48:59]
Sarah Longwell
This. This is one of those where it's like, if you don't, as a society say, this is not okay. We don't accept this as a socially appropriate thing to do. That is a. That is a norm breaking, almost blunder is not a big enough word, but that is like catastrophic for our moral fiber. And that's the part that sort of got me the most engaged, is that you do want accountability for everybody. And the more that comes out, the more pernicious it all is.
- [49:28]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. If you don't, if you accept the fact that the most powerful, the best educated and the wealthiest in our society have no moral code, then that's. That denigrates. I mean, that. That. That means society on whole is. Is broken. Right. Like, you can't accept that they were looking at these human beings and not seeing them as human beings. They're like, oh, they're Jeffrey's toys and we'll let him play with them however he wants. And it's not going to stop us from making real estate deals with him because we could profit. It's just their own. And the idea of self interest above basic humanity, it seems to be like, I don't know, the organizing principle of what happens in the circle of Epstein friends. More of my conversation with Sarah right after the break. Runaway country is brought to you by policygenius. Okay, so oftentimes I go to bed very stressed out. Out. That's what magnesium and melatonin were made for and all the amazing sleep products that I talk to you about in these ad rolls. But I try and start each day with gratitude. This is harder than it seems, especially because I'm often shaken out of my slumber violently by screaming children who are demanding Cheerios or a Nerf gun. It's hard, it's hard to be grateful, but it's very important to just begin the day in gratitude. I think at least this is what my strength tells me and this is what I learned from, you know, life coaching that I see on the Internet. So I try and start with gratitude, and I try and take a quiet moment to just be like, okay, I am really, I am very thankful for all that I have, and I need to redirect my energies of gratitude towards helping other people or shining a light or just doing something good for the world. But, you know, it takes discipline. It's hard, and sometimes I don't even convince myself. Right? But as a mom, as a daughter, I feel like our work in this world is to both be responsible with what we do have and to take care of it, to shepherd it through. And part of that is, you know, preparing for the future, financial planning, protecting our loved ones, making sure our family is whole and gonna be good, is on the right track. And that can be super overwhelming. Even thinking about that stuff can be overwhelming. Planning for life's eventualities, plan for your own death, that is dark shit. That's not how I begin my day. That's stuff I usually end my day with, but it's stuff we have to address all the same, right? And sometimes we need help both thinking about that and planning for that. We need help thinking about the future. We need help thinking about next chapters for our loved ones. And so there are things and there are resources that are available to help you do just that if you are ready for that move. And hopefully you are, because I think as adults and as people in the world, planning for change is never a bad thing. So there is something called policy genius. Yes. You can start the new year with clarity and security. You can lock in your life insurance today. Policygenius is an online insurance marketplace that allows you to compare quotes for some of America's top insurers side by side for free. That is important so you know what you're getting into. Their licensed team helps you get what you need, and so you can just get on with your life and go get the Nerf gun or the Cheerios or whatever they're asking you for. You can easily find what you need. Coverage, amounts, prices, terms with no guesswork, just clarity, gratitude and clarity. Those are the buzzwords here. So plan the year knowing you have protected what you've built. With Policygenius, you find 20 year life insurance policies starting in 20, just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. Head to policygenius.com Alex to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That is policygenius.com Alex wanna feel more.
- [53:22]
Sarah Longwell
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- [54:31]
Alex Wagner
But you brought up, I want to stop on a point that you just made about the number of people in the House, some of the women, some of the men who have held Trump or who have pushed Congress towards full transparency on this and in turn held Trump accountable on what. What is in the Epstein files, I wonder. And I'm saying this with, with a fistful of salt in my hand, but this is happening like you have Bondi getting ripped to shred, Bondi going on attack and also being hammered on the Hill. You have 3 million files that continue to be poured through, none of which are good for Trump and his allies or many other rich people, including Democrats. You have the House defeating an effort by Mike Johnson to protect Trump's tariffs. Like mutiny on the Republican side of the aisle, you have what feels like, I don't want to say the beginnings of insurrection, but you know what's happening here. You know how you, I think, have a keen sense of like, if there is breakage, whether or not it's, it's a real, if it's, whether it's a hairline fracture or a full break. And I, and I wonder if you think that the Epstein files might really have been the catalyst for what is. Feels like is coming like a real reckoning between the President and his party.
- [55:52]
Sarah Longwell
So there's two components to this. There's the part where some member of Congress show actual spine. And so that is Massey. That is actually Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace, like I said, in part because they say, like either they've experienced sexual assault themselves and so they just won't let this one go. Like that's, there's, there's some spine. But the vast majority of Republicans aren't doing anything, right. The vast majority of people are trying to cover it up and protecting him. They were able to get, I can't remember like four for people for Republicans to vote for it, to make them have to release it. And without that, the vast majority of Republicans were happy to try to do this cover up, including Mike Johnson. And in fact, Trump has been like punishing Lauren Boebert by taking money out of her district. And they put, you know, Lauren Boebert moved districts, she left her district and they put in some normie, kind of more normie, ish Republican, less of a firebrand than her. That guy's not doing anything about the Epstein files being released. Like it took somebody like Lauren Boebert. So I don't want to overstate Republicans getting a spine on some things. Cause I think it was like such a small group of people, but it was just enough. Cause the majority is so narrow for Republicans. Then there's the other reason, the thing that's happening, the reason I think you're starting to get the sense that people are gonna start pushing back, which is you're seeing all the retirements, right? Because Republicans are like, we're about to get absolutely murdered.
- [57:13]
Alex Wagner
Murdered.
- [57:14]
Sarah Longwell
But the second thing they're seeing is Trump's poll numbers start to crater, right? The reason that people stick with Trump is they think Trump is invincible with the public, certainly with the Republican base. And any start to Trump, like independents are out on him, right? Hispanics have fallen out of him, young people have dropped away from him. And so his disapproved numbers are getting really High. That's the thing that I think starts to create a permission structure for some members of Congress to start to act because they know there's a life after Trump. Trump. They know that there, I mean it.
- [57:49]
Alex Wagner
Ain'T much of a life.
- [57:51]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. But I do think that's part of what's happening is that they, he is just, the poll numbers are dropping, there's a buildup of things that he has done that they are now feeling, I think accountable for, that they might be held accountable for. And that's starting to get people a little weak kneed.
- [58:09]
Alex Wagner
Can I just say, because like I think this data point belongs at the end of this conversation, which is the Washington Post reported just a couple hours ago that the National Guard is quietly being pulled from Portland and Chicago and Los Angeles. Like it ain't just the Republicans in Congress who are feeling the heat. Like Trump, whatever he says, he's putting out press releases that say don't be a panicin the economy. What is it? You guys are gonna make MAGA hats and say the economy is moderating or prices are moderating or whatever the fuck the language is. Like they're in trouble. Cuz they've done dog shit. They like, well they've steered the economy into dog shit. And this attack on blue cities is not fucking working. The public is not with him on immigration. He's flailing on an issue he used to be strong on. He's in real trouble. I know that people want to hear that, people interested in democracy want to hear that, but it also happens to be true.
- [59:01]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean this is where you wanna be just like slightly circumspect. So we did a whole show on this where we were talking about it and I wish I could remember the exact phrase that they put in their panic in statement which I on that show. You know that this is a real phenomenon because they had to name it. Like the idea of Republicans panicking. Trump has decided to name it because it's a real thing that's happening. And, and I wish I could remember the phrase that they use. It's like, yeah, prices are moderating slightly is like something that was, was in the press release and it was like way down in it too when they were the last point successes.
- [59:37]
Alex Wagner
It was the last point in the.
- [59:38]
Sarah Longwell
Press release because here's the thing, Trump does know he's in trouble. And what I'm not even sure they have quite figured out yet, but the thing to understand about voters is that this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. People are Independently mad about masked agents in the streets who are shooting Americans, but also pulling out people who are not criminals. And this is what I. But I do want Democrats to be slightly careful on one thing. Trump's excesses on immigration enforcement are making people really upset. And I hear in focus groups all the time like, this is not what I voted for. Like, I wanted him to get dangerous criminals out. That's what he was supposed to do and secure the border. But I didn't want him pulling this guy who's lived here for 20 years and has never committed a crime out of his house in this horrible way and shooting Americans in the streets. The thing though, is, is that I don't want Democrats to interpret people hating Trump's excesses as wanting to go back to Democratic policy on immigration. It is a huge. It is the reason that Pete Trump keeps getting. It's the reason he launched his campaign. It wasn't because people were like, this guy is going to build a wall and I desperately want a wall. It's because the wall was a stand in for a vibe that he was going to take immigration seriously. And Americans do want immigration taken seriously. I cannot tell you how many swing voters I listen to where, like you, it's an easy thing to triangulate. Like there just is a certain sweet spot. People want a secure border. They want us to know who's in the country. They do want dangerous criminals deported. This feels like a pretty reasonable thing for an American to believe. But they also are like, if this person's been here for 20 years and not committing any crimes, like, don't be a dick to them and there's gotta be a different way to work this out. And so I think that Trump is way in his excess points. But I just don't want Democrats to think like, see, people liked it better when immigration.
- [61:29]
Alex Wagner
We were talking about abolishing ice. Yeah, exactly. Well, it forces the Democrats hand on actually coming up with a proposal of what their immigration policy might be.
- [61:36]
Sarah Longwell
That would be great.
- [61:38]
Alex Wagner
I will tell you the specific language in the panic and press release, Sarah, for your hats and hoodies and bags is everyday costs. Continue moderating everyday costs.
- [61:49]
Sarah Longwell
Continue moderating that.
- [61:50]
Alex Wagner
Put that on a red hat with white all caps and I will buy it.
- [61:54]
Sarah Longwell
You know who doesn't feel that way way? Voters?
- [61:56]
Alex Wagner
Everyone.
- [61:57]
Sarah Longwell
Because I listen to it all day, every day. And this is. Sorry, this is actually the main point I wanted to make, which is everything doesn't happen in a vacuum. Everything that Trump does that people don't like is happening at the same time their costs aren't going down, which is the one thing they hired him to do. They're not an either or. It's like people are like, well, does it break through the east wing, the ballroom stuff? And I'm like, it's not. People notice it. And it's not that they're mad because they care about the ballroom. It's that why is he focused on the ballroom when my prices are still so high? Which by the way, tags into the Epstein stuff. Cuz it's like, why are this out of touch elite stuff and my prices aren't being lower. This is where Marjorie Taylor Greene understands that America first isn't just a slogan, it's a statement of prioritization. And when they feel like they're not being prioritized, that's when Trump starts to lose his power.
- [62:51]
Alex Wagner
It's Trump first really is what it is.
- [62:53]
Sarah Longwell
Of course it is.
- [62:54]
Alex Wagner
Wait till the Arc de Trump starts getting erected. That's for another podcast. Sarah Longwell, you brilliant, wonderful person. Thank you for taking time out of your more important activities to do this podcast with me.
- [63:07]
Sarah Longwell
Nothing was more important than this. This was the most important. Love talking to you.
- [63:11]
Alex Wagner
You're the best. I really appreciate your time, Sarah. Thanks for coming on.
- [63:15]
Sarah Longwell
You're the best.
- [63:19]
Alex Wagner
Before we go, a quick shout out to Fulton county, whose District 5 commissioner, Marvin Arrington, was on this show last week. Now, you remember that FBI raid of a Georgia elections hub where Trump confiscated ballots from the 2020 election? Well, over the weekend, a federal judge in Atlanta ordered the U.S. department of justice to unseal and publicly release the search warrant materials and supporting documentation that federal officials relied on to carry out that raid. And guess what? The warrants show that the Justice Department used debunked claims about election irregularities in Georgia, ones that have already been independently reviewed, been through multiple audits, and ruled on in multiple cases. So the essential justification for seizing these records just isn't there. Okay, Marvin. Anyway, that is our show for this week. As always, if you've been impacted directly by the Trump administration and its policies, send us an email or a one minute voice note@runawaycountryokked.com and we may be in touch to feature your story. A huge thank you to everyone who has written in already. You guys are awesome. Last but not least, do not forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos which are on fuego. Check them out on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. Thanks for listening. Runaway country is a crooked me Media production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkovski. Our producer is Emma Ilick Frank. Production support from Megan Larson and Lacey Roberts. The show is mixed and edited by Charlotte Landis. Ben Hethcote is our video producer and Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Audio support comes from Kyle Seglin. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. Katie Long is our executive executive producer of development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.