Trump, Tucker, and the Death of Legacy News

Summary

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Runaway Country with Alex Wagner

Episode 16: Trump, Tucker, and the Death of Legacy News
Date: February 26, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the collapsing state of American legacy media, how right-wing media—especially Fox News and figures like Tucker Carlson—have transformed the national discourse, and what is at risk as independent media rises from the rubble. Host Alex Wagner is joined by longtime journalist Jim Acosta for a candid, no-holds-barred analysis of the shattering of traditional institutions, and later by journalist Jason Zengerle, author of "Hated by All the Right People," for a close-up look at Tucker Carlson and the Foxification of conservative media.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. America’s Fractured Media Reality

• Wagner opens by lamenting the death of a shared reality in America, attributing much of the split to the right-wing media universe ([00:01]).
• The episode sets out to explore:
  • How Fox News changed the media landscape
  • What’s lost with the decline of legacy news organizations
  • If independent media can meaningfully fill the gap

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2. The Demise of the Fourth Estate and Legacy Media

Causes and Symptoms ([01:48]–[13:00])

• Corporate consolidation: Billionaires buying and gutting historic outlets (e.g., Jeff Bezos at the Washington Post).
• Venture capital’s effect: Buying local outlets, hollowing them out, flipping for profit.
• Government antagonism: The Trump administration actively undermining the press, targeting journalists with legal threats (e.g., Don Lemon's arrest for covering protests [02:41]).
• Acosta:
  • “It’s an embarrassment that we’re the richest, most powerful country in the world and we have shit for news in this country. It’s shit.” ([04:22])
  • Reminisces about when networks valued truth (“CBS... the Tiffany Network”), contrasts with the present reality of news as business or propaganda ([09:04]).
  • “You can destroy the Washington Post... It is Humpty Dumpty. You can’t put it back together again.” ([09:19])

What We Lose

• Unique reach and investigative capacity: “You just can’t replace that with a podcast.” ([10:37])
• Global bureaus and institutional memory.
• Trusted local journalism that holds power accountable.

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3. Rise of Independent and Grassroots Media

Hope and Complications ([11:51]–[13:30])

• Acosta sees a future in grassroots, “people-powered media”—possibly through new partnerships and networks, but eschewing reliance on “benevolent billionaires”: “Fucking Jeff Bezos, that son of a bitch, is already screwing things up. ... Maybe we need to do something from the grassroots up...” ([11:55])
• Outrage at the decline of public broadcasting, with Trump administration policies actively undermining PBS and NPR ([12:27]).

The Threat of Local News Consolidation

• The Tegna-NextStar merger and Sinclair-style consolidation threaten local TV’s role as the last trusted news source ([17:15]).
• Acosta: “It would be a travesty if all of our local stations... were to become like that creepy Sinclair video… It was like this creepy dystopian 1984 thing.” ([19:11])

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4. Fox News, Outrage Media, and the Tucker Effect

The Radicalization of the Media Ecosystem ([22:11]–[34:09])

• Fox News’ fundamental role: “It’s kind of the whole ballgame, isn’t it?” Acosta likens Fox to “the cigarette companies of the late 20th century” for knowingly hooking viewers on outrage ([22:40]; [25:02]).
• The impact of Fox’s rightward lurch—especially post-2020, when chasing ratings replaced any feint toward truth: “Fox... became the bullshit factory again.” ([27:22])
• CNN and MSNBC as comparative islands: MSNBC “may be opinionated news, but it’s true… from Earth One. Over at Fox… it’s a different planet” ([23:08]).

The Decline of Legacy Trust

• Even high-profile journalists are left relying on Substack and podcasting, reflecting the shift of “authority” to independent media ([33:16]).
• The need for some consolidation of independent voices to regain lost trust and resources.

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5. Tucker Carlson: From Elites to Edgelord

Career Arc and Personal Resentment ([40:09]–[49:13])

• Zengerle details how Tucker’s career was marked by public humiliation (e.g., Jon Stewart’s Crossfire takedown [41:09]), fueling a rejection narrative common among MAGA leaders.
• Carlson’s unique skill: Smuggling fringe, racist, and conspiratorial ideas into mainstream discourse under the guise of mere curiosity or “just asking questions.”
  • “He was very good at... taking these really extreme right wing fringe ideas… and smuggling them onto primetime on Fox...” — Jason Zengerle ([45:16])

Fringe to Mainstream, Mask Off

• Carlson’s post-Fox persona is even less restrained, shifting from dog whistles to open flirtation with white nationalism, antisemitism, and “edgelord” politics ([45:07]).
• “To be successful in conservative media these days, you kind of need the neo-Nazis on your side and that’s where he thinks the energy is.” — Zengerle ([46:25])

Truth, Authenticity, and Grievance

• Carlson pivots from calculated audience-building to seemingly authentic grievance—reflecting and deepening the politicization of “truth” ([48:01]).
• Wagner: “Authenticity is actually the thing that matters maybe most. Not even accuracy.” ([49:13])

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6. The New Centers of Influence

From Fox to Podcasts, Rogan, and the Next Generation ([29:06]; [55:00])

• Acosta: “The podcast side of things has become very influential. Joe Rogan... Not for better, definitely for worse.” ([29:06])
• Wagner: Fox may still have ratings, but true influence is shifting—“the most influential voices on the right are in many ways no longer on Fox.”
• New “counter-elite” networks (e.g., Thiel, Orban, the Trump family) are forming as the next generation of right-wing power brokers.

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7. Carlson, Trump, and the MAGA Succession

Interlocked Relationships and Political Power ([50:18]–[59:19])

• Zengerle: Carlson’s relationship with Trump is symbiotic but not subordinate—he avoids being a simple “lackey” (unlike Hannity), positioning himself as a kingmaker and “movement” figure ([51:26]).
• Instrumental in MAGA power politics (e.g., pushing for J.D. Vance as VP, influencing cabinet choices).
• Wagner draws a compelling parallel: “In the way that Bannon is kind of Trump’s Iago... I wonder if a similar relationship doesn’t exist or could emerge between Vance and Carlson if Vance was the nominee or... president.” ([60:08])
• The Trump children (esp. Don Jr.) seen as fully “red pilled”—core to the new right-wing influence ecosystem.

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8. The Inevitable Institutionalization of Independent Media?

• Both guests agree: there will eventually have to be some resource-sharing and structure among reputable independents to develop robust journalism ([33:16]; [34:09]).
  • Wagner: “Consolidation, which is usually a bad word, brings resourcing.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the state of American news:

  • “It’s an embarrassment that we’re the richest, most powerful country in the world and we have shit for news in this country.” — Jim Acosta ([04:22])

• On corporate capitulation:

  • “It was like being transported to the twilight zone of wussies where you had CBS and ABC paying basically bribes to Donald Trump for a presidential library. I mean, what a crock of shit.” — Acosta ([07:24])

• On the enduring power of Fox:

  • “Fox is basically like the cigarette companies… [They] hook our senior citizens… to outrage and race-based attack media.” — Acosta ([25:02])

• On Tucker Carlson’s radicalization:

  • “[Tucker] was very good at… taking these really extreme right wing fringe ideas… and smuggling them onto primetime on Fox and presenting them in a more palatable way.” — Jason Zengerle ([45:16])
  • “To be successful in conservative media these days, you kind of need the neo-Nazis on your side and that's where he thinks the energy is.” — Zengerle ([46:25])

• On authenticity and audience:

  • “Authenticity is actually the thing that matters maybe most. Not even accuracy...” — Wagner ([49:13])

• On what’s lost with legacy media:

  • “You just can’t replace that with a podcast…” — Acosta ([10:37])

• On the local news crisis:

  • “It would be a travesty if all of our local stations… were to become like that creepy Sinclair video… It was like this creepy dystopian 1984 thing.” — Acosta ([19:11])

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Noteworthy Timestamps

• [01:48] — The five-alarm fire in American news: buying, gutting, and politicizing local and national outlets.
• [04:22] — Jim Acosta’s unfiltered assessment of the state of American media.
• [09:04] — The irreparability of legacy institutions: “Humpty Dumpty.”
• [17:15] — The potential consequences of Tegna-NextStar: local news consolidation as existential threat.
• [22:40] — Fox’s central role as “the whole ballgame” and the cigarette company analogy.
• [29:06] — The rise of podcasts and shifting centers of media influence (Joe Rogan, Megyn Kelly, etc.).
• [33:16] — Substack and the dream of a new, collaboratively resourced media platform.
• [41:09] — Zengerle recounts Jon Stewart’s takedown of Tucker Carlson on Crossfire and its impact.
• [45:16] — “Smuggling” fringe ideas into the mainstream through Fox primetime.
• [51:26] — Unpacking Tucker Carlson’s relationship to Trump and differentiation from Sean Hannity.
• [60:08] — Parallels between Bannon/Trump and the possible Vance/Carlson relationship.
• [66:15] — Tucker as the “class traitor” who maintains elite affect for authenticity.
• [68:26] — Zengerle on whether Carlson could return from his radicalization: “He’s walked pretty far out there on the tree limb. It’s hard to imagine him coming back.”
• [71:14] — The purpose of the Tucker biography—to tell the broader story of the Republican Party’s radicalization through one man’s journey.

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Tone and Style

• The episode is frank, incisive, often profane (“shit for news,” “fuck you, John Roberts,” “let’s fucking do it”) and spares no one—targeting politicians, billionaires, and network heads alike.
• Both Acosta and Wagner express nostalgia and deep frustration with the current woes of American journalism.
• Jason Zengerle’s segment is more measured but equally sharp in its analysis of both personal and system-wide dynamics.

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In Summary

"Trump, Tucker, and the Death of Legacy News" is a bracing look at how legacy institutions are being gutted by both market forces and political actors, while the right continues to build an outrage-fueled media empire. As legacy news’s reach shrinks, new independent media—podcasts, Substack, etc.—rises, but not without its own perils: fragmentation, funding challenges, and the risk of further siloed realities. Fox, and especially Tucker Carlson, emerge as avatars of this new, more radical, unrestrained era. The discussion ends with the sense that American journalism sits at a dangerous crossroads, its future uncertain, its soul—and role—up for grabs in a post-truth world.

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For Those Who Haven’t Listened

If you want an unvarnished, insider’s view of why your news is worse, why reality feels so broken, and how personalities like Tucker Carlson have become both the symptom and the accelerant of America’s information malaise—this episode is for you.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey listeners, it is Alex from the not so distant past. I'm out of the studio hunting for leprechauns this week as one does so. We pre recorded this episode earlier this month on a topic that unfortunately is not going stale anytime soon. Hope you enjoy. Hi everyone. For the past decade it has felt like we've been living in two Americas. Forget policy, we don't even have a shared reality. And apart from one unnamed megalomaniac, the most obvious source of this break between fact based reality and and the universe of alternate facts is the right wing media ecosystem. This is supposed to be a unifying event for the country, not for the Latinos.

[B]

We have artificially elevated the cost of energy to appease this sun God. Climate change, alarmism, this religion, the civic religion that progressives have invented. All you hear from Democrats and social media is that ICE and Trump are Gestapo. If you're one of these crazy lunatrons,

[A]

you think that it's time to use

[B]

new tactics or even real weapons.

[A]

Okay. Generating interest became generating outrage. And the right wing reliance on questionable theories and funk science and distorted analysis got way, way, way out of control. There has been a massive and coordinated effort to steal this election from we the people of the United States of America.

[C]

It doesn't make any sense at all.

[B]

If the vaccine is.

[C]

There's no reason for people who have

[B]

received the vaccine to wear masks or avoid physical contact. So maybe it doesn't work and they're

[C]

simply not telling you that we found

[B]

out that there are people who are

[C]

between the ages of 1 and 4 are getting Social Security, that we've got something like $69 million of taxpayers who are debt.

[A]

Okay, but let me. Let me just finish all of this. Amidst the biggest crisis in media the country has ever seen, we're talking venture capital, buying up local outlets, running them into the and selling them for parts. Billionaires stripping down once acclaimed newspapers into shadows of what they once were or just gutting them to become right wing mouthpieces. Multimillion dollar mergers that are vastly consolidating news gathering operations and handing the reins to bosses that care more about business than the truth. And an administration that wants to expedite the end of accountability and the demise of the fourth estate by actively going after the networks and the anchors of themselves. This morning, former CNN anchor turned independent journalist Don Lemon. Out of custody, but facing federal civil rights charges after covering an anti ICE protest inside a church near Minneapolis.

[B]

Last night, the DOJ sent a team of federal agents to arrest me in the middle of the night for something that I've been doing for the last

[A]

30 years and that is covering the news. But if you are here listening to this, that's maybe the side of the story you already know. What do we do with mainstream media that is increasingly divorced from the truth and exists mostly to breed contempt? Can independent media fill the gap? Will it somebody better? Because institutional media used to be the fourth estate, but it is increasingly becoming Donald Trump's real estate. I'm Alex Wagner. And this week on Runaway country, how Fox News changed everything for cable and beyond. What we lose when we lose legacy media and independent media's long road to stopping the bleeding. We'll be talking to journalist Jason Zengerly, whose new book Hated by All the Right People tracks the Foxification of conservative coverage through the Forrest Gump of the right wing media ecosystem. Tucker Carlson, he was very good at

[C]

like taking these, like really extreme right wing fringe ideas, you know, in the darkest corners of the Internet and like smuggling them on to primetime on Fox and presenting them in a more palatable way.

[A]

But first I wanted to have an old friend on the show to talk about his experience swimming against the shifting tides of corporate capitulation. Jim Acosta is a longtime journalist who now carries the torch for independent media. Before that he was CNN's White House correspondent where he was a thorn in the side of Donald Trump during his first administration. And now, well, Acosta has some choice words for the state of journalism in America.

[B]

Like it's an embarrassment that we're the richest, most powerful country in the world and we have shit for, for news in this country. It's shit.

[A]

Here is our conversation. First of all, Jim, to my mind, we never did like linear television together.

[B]

I don't think so, no. Cause we were in our little competing spaces.

[A]

We were in different bubbles.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I game recognized game though. And I was always a fan of yours on cnn. And it's a pleasure to be able to talk to you unfettered with curse words on the podcast platform. So thank you for doing this.

[C]

I love it.

[B]

Yeah, I get to say fuck and all this stuff all the time. And these little old ladies come up to me and say, oh my God, I didn't know.

[A]

I didn't know you had such a potty mouth.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, what are you going to do? Well, we're not going to lady.

[A]

That's fucking who I am.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Fucking deal with it.

[A]

It's great to have pure, undiluted Acosta be able to that shit. So. So we win.

[B]

That's my plan.

[A]

I do want to talk to you as someone who was kind of had to deal with and maybe we would say casualty of leadership that wanted to curry favor with Donald Trump. And you were in cable news, in the linear television institution of linear television. When you look at the media landscape right now and you see the Ellisons at cbs, you see the blossoming of a hardcore right wing echo chamber online, you see an institution like the Washington Post being gutted by Jeff Bezos. What changes do you think are most significant and worrisome to you when you look out on our present sort of information landscape?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, where to begin? Right. I mean it's been just a huge disappointment and I guess I shouldn't be diplomatic. It's been a huge shit show since Donald Trump came back to the White House. And I grew up in this business. I first started at CBS News and then worked at cnn. And I worked a lot of people who had sort of very muscular attitude about the press and our rights and how we're there to hold people to account and not put up with their bullshit, Democrat or Republican. And if like when I was a White House correspondent, if you know, a press secretary would call and complain about a story, be like, okay, thanks, take a number, we'll get back to you. Bye bye. And you know, we know what we're doing, we're doing our best, we're doing good jobs and so on. And if you can't handle the scrutiny, get out of here. And something like, it was like a light switch of cowardice that was flipped about a year ago when he came back into office and you saw all of this crazy capitulation going on and it was like being transported to the twilight zone of wussies where you had CBS and ABC paying basically bribes to Donald Trump for a presidential library. I mean, what a crock of shit.

[A]

Well, it's cause he's such a big reader, Jim. We wanna make sure that the books are preserved.

[B]

They need all those books that they're gonna put in there and all of those different variations of his mug shot that I'm sure they'll put in every room. But you know, it's been really kind of jaw dropping to see it play out. And just lately what's happened over at the Washington Post, I mean, I grew up in the D.C. area and my mom got the Washington Post on the doorstep every morning and she would get it out on the breakfast table and read it cover to cover. And I up just idolizing the Washington Post and Woodward And Bernstein and everything. And to see what that has become, it's just. It's unbelievable. And the way they've gutted the Washington Post, killing off the sports department, which was my favorite section of the paper to read growing up, reading about my Redskins and my Capitals and my Bullets and all that stuff. And then, you know, they kill the sports department and then the publisher of the newspaper is photographed at the super bowl acting like a douchebag. I mean, you just can't make this up.

[A]

Soon to be. And then fired. And then fired.

[B]

So, I mean, I don't know, we could take this, I guess, one bite of the apple at a time. But my sense of it is, is that the public is already tired of this. They're already kind of enraged with this, and they. They can sniff this stuff out. People are intelligent. When I worked at CBS a million years ago, there was a producer there who would say the people who watch the CBS Evening News are smart fucking people, right? And I remember, and I still remember that to this day, and how they think over at CBS that they can just have the anchor of the evening news end of the newscast by saying, we salute you, Marco Rubio. It's horseshit.

[A]

I don't know what you and I. I worked at CBS for a short amount of time, but a time nonetheless, and they used to take their status as the Tiffany Network and arbiters of Truth, the former home of the home of Cronkite, real seriously. So it is. It is difficult to imagine the reality under which people are putting those shows together now. And it's honestly difficult to watch what those shows have become. But, I mean, I think one of the realities that is less discussed is you can, you know, you can destroy the Washington Post, you can destroy CBS News. You can do so in an effort to make, you know, to curry favor with this administration. The problem is it's not humped or it is Humpty Dumpty. You can't put it back together again. That's what I think is most distressing, right? People don't aren't going to, I think, one day come back to the Washington Post. They're not going to come back to newspapers. They're not going to come back to the evening news. Even if you had new ownership, even if you had different anchors and different production stat, like, it's just gone. And so that means people turn where people turn to, you know, people like you, people like me, which is great. But I wonder if you think there's any kind of what we lose in that process, because I love to think that these two things, the new media landscape and the institutional media, can live in coexistence. But the reality is that one is going to inherit the mantle of information analysis and dispersal, and the other one's just gonna die. And you lose a lot when you lose institutional media. And I think nobody really talks about that part as much.

[B]

No, it's absolutely true. I worked at CNN for, and they have the largest news organization in the world, maybe even more than the BBC. And they have bureaus and reporters and producers and photographers all over the world. And you just can't replace that with a podcast. I mean, we just don't have the reach. I would love to have a Hong Kong bureau for the show, but, you know, we'll work on that. We'll get on that right away. But, you know, when I worked at CBS News, I mean, they, you know, the fact that Dan Rather was there for Tiananmen Square, I mean, that kind of coverage, it's invaluable to the American people. And I do think, though, Alex, what is taking place right now is that the media landscape is sort of shifting in real time underneath our feet, and it's gonna take some time to get used to all of this. I do think we may get to a day where some of the folks like us start collaborating more and more and perhaps form partnerships and relationships. I hear this from my Substack subscribers all the time. Like, I wish I could subscribe to one thing and get all of you at the same time. And I'm like, common network. Yes, I would like that, too.

[A]

If there's a bring Acosta and Wagner together at last.

[B]

Let's do it. But I mean, like, you know, and there's a part of me that says, well, if only a benevolent billionaire would step in and help us with the resources. But then fucking Jeff Bezos, that son of a bitch, is already screwing things up. And so maybe that doesn't work either. And so maybe we need to do something from the grassroots up and we need people powered media in this country. I mean, Alex, the thing that pisses me off more than anything, I talk about this all the time when I do speaking engagements, is like, look what our public broadcasting has become.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I mean, Donald Trump is, like, dancing on the grave of public broadcasting in America. The other day they had to cancel the weekend edition of the PBS NewsHour. I'm sorry. Like, we should have, like, little old ladies down at the Capitol with pitchforks and torches demanding that they release the funding for PBS and npr, for Christ's sake. And we should. I mean, they have to put on,

[A]

I would argue, young ladies and young men too.

[B]

All ladies, all men. Yeah.

[A]

More from Jim Acosta right after these brief messages. Runaway country is brought to you by bookshop.org Since 2020, bookshop.org has raised over $400 million for local bookstores. They are unapologetically anti Amazon. They believe local bookstores are essential community hubs that foster culture, curiosity and a love of reading, and they are committed to helping them survive and thrive. They are a certified B Corp and have been named Best for the World by B Labs where you shop for books matters. When you purchase from bookshop.org, you are supporting more than 2,500 local independent bookstores across the country. Independent bookstores do a lot more than sell books. They take care of and pour back into their communities, creating safe spaces that foster culture and curiosity and a love of reading. Whether you are searching for an incisive history that helps you make sense of this moment, a novel that sweeps you away, or the perfect gift for a loved one, bookshop.org has you covered. I am reading. I've been saying this on every podcast, but I'm almost done with Creation Lake. I'm reading the Prize by Daniel Juergen, a history, a very exhaustive and brilliant history of the oil industry. And I'm starting to read Flesh by David Salleh. I think I'm not butchering his name. I love books. I have multiple ones going all at the same time and I'm going to buy more on bookshop.org use code ALEX to get 10% off your next order at bookshop.org that is code alexookshop.org Runaway country is brought to you by Green Chef. Are you annoyed with misleading healthy meals? Are you tired of locking in for another New Year's trend? Green Chef cuts through the noise as the trusted authority in clean eating, delivering only real farm sourced ingredients. You can trust every single bite with over 40 clean, customizable weekly recipes designed to give you peace of mind. Every Green Chef box delivers certified organic produce and responsibly sourced proteins and seafood. That means avoiding ultra processed fillers which are no good. Reach your wellness goals with options like Mediterranean, high protein, high fiber, plant based and more. All clinically proven to support healthier habits. Take control of your health without the stress. Let Green Chef do the research, meal planning and grocery shopping. Enjoy low prep, low mess meals for every lifestyle. I have used this and you should too because it is really Honestly. So it's a really super ninja way to get a meal made. It's just very precise. It's very succinct. There's not a lot of mess. It's healthy. You don't have to think when you're using Green Chef, which is something I really enjoy when cooking. I recommend it. Head to greenchef.com fiftyalex and use code 50 Alex to get 50% off your first month. Then 20% off for two months with free shipping. That is code 50 Alex at greenchef.com/50alex. This has been said a trillion times, but there's always so much happening with this administration that shocks the conscience that people become numb to it. But both the erosion of public media, the calculated atrophy, which is a strategy on the part of this administration, but also the consolidation. And I'm not just talking about the Ellisons, which make headlines, or the sale of. Of CNN to someone. At some point, it's being spun off from Time Warner, and the more valuable assets are going to probably be purchased by Netflix. But there's, you know, there's a big. Tanya, is it. Does someone know. Is it. It's Tanya, right? Nextar Tegna. I'm, like, going with the Italian, like bologna.

[B]

Bologna, musselbane. No, I know. I. Because I think it used to be Gannett, right? And they. They scrambled the letter.

[A]

Oh, my God. That's right.

[B]

I think that's what it is. And they're trying to create this bastard stepchild of local media.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Sinclair. Like, we already have the Sinclair assholes over here. And now we're gonna have a new, you know, confederation of other assholes from the right wing. Like, they complain about the liberal media nonstop over at Fox. These assholes at Fox complain about it nonstop. And they're all doing this shit themselves. Well, stop complaining, Greg Gutfeld.

[A]

You know, for people who have not paid attention to this, which is understandable, the Tegna NextStar merger would be effectively a hostile consolidation of almost every local station in the United States. Now, some of them are affiliated with larger networks, but the fact getting a vice grip on local TV stations at the same time that you're either selling off the bigger cable news outlets, consolidating them, or withering them away in a strategy by firing everybody that works at them is. Is like a real fucking problem for information. And I think the local stuff is particularly pernicious because that's still a very trusted. Like, you know, there's the. There's the sort of people feel like Maybe national news has become partisan or they believe that there's some, you know, slant. Yeah, local news remains one of those bastions of I guess we'll call integrity in the minds of a lot of folk across the United States. And to have a decidedly sort of partisan operation behind I think something like 84% of local stations in the country seems like real bad news for the American population. What do you think about it? As someone who looks at this with

[B]

a gimp out, I agree with you. I worked in local news before going to network stuff and I worked in Knoxville, Tennessee and Dallas and Chicago. And those are the places where I learned how to be a reporter. And they were just absolutely wonderful places to work with wonderful people. And I really value what local news does. I mean, think about your local weatherman providing real time forecasts on tornadoes coming through your area and stuff like that. That shit needs to keep going in this country and it needs to be trusted. And I mean, I just think that it would be a travesty if all of our local stations, or a big chunk of it, were to become like that creepy Sinclair video, remember from a few years ago where all the anchors were reading the same thing at the same time.

[A]

The sharing of biased and false, false

[B]

news has become all too common on social media. Unfortunately, some members of the museum use their platforms to push their own personal bias and agenda control it exactly what people think. And this is extremely dangerous to our democracy. And it was like this creepy dystopian 1984 thing. We can't have Ellison type rich billionaire jerks running all of our local stations around the country. It needs to be stopped. And what's amazing about that is that the FCC really should be in the business of preventing that from occurring. But the FCC has been too busy going after people like Jimmy Kimmel and Stephen Colbert because they say you shouldn't be opinionated on late night tv. Meanwhile they're like, oh yeah, by the way, all you rich guys who want to gobble up all these local stations and turn them into Fox, we're just fine with that. And so there needs to be some sanity restored to our information systems in this country. I think that they're badly broken and I think it's a serious emergency for the American people. I would love to see public broadcasting built up. Like if I could run for office and get elected.

[A]

Way you can, Jim, but we'll get to that later.

[B]

I would say let's make public broadcasting like the BBC and make it too big to fail. Put all of these mechanisms in place to prevent partisan tomfoolery and really have good serious journalism in this country that is for the public benefit instead of what we have right now, which is like, it's an embarrassment that we're the richest, most powerful country in the world and we have shit for news in this country.

[A]

Totally. You know what's so interesting is I think the more time you spend in cable or just in institutional media, the more you're like, we need public broadcasting. Because the more you see the sausage being made, the more you're like, oh, we exist at the whims of corporate overlords who do not have the interests of news and information and the general public at heart. It is profit. And profit is contingent on a receptive political environment in many ways or receptive regulatory environment. And so, like, that doesn't. This is. That is a flawed system. That doesn't mean it can't exist. But, like, if that's the only thing, that's the only bulwark we have, it is not sufficient. You just like, speak to enough CNN and Ms. Now people, and I would assume also Fox people. And the more you're going to get, like, let's all go work at PBS and make it great.

[B]

I think that would be wonderful. And there are so many terrific journalists in this country, both broadcast and print, and they're just about everybody. Unless maybe you're at the New York Times or something. You're just getting the shaft these days. 60 Minutes used to be the end all, be all of broadcast journalism. And they're fucked, you know?

[A]

And I thank you, Barry Weiss.

[B]

When 60 Minutes is in trouble, we're all in trouble. And it just seems to me like there's gotta be. There's just a different way to build a better mousetrap here, it seems to me.

[A]

Can we talk about Fox for a second? Because we're gonna be talking to Jason Zengerly, who has a new biography about Tucker Carlson out, and he sort of makes the argument that the radicalization of Tucker Carlson and to some degree, Fox News mirrors the radicalization of the country on whole and certainly the Republican Party. First of all, how important do you think Fox is Slash was in terms of moving the goalposts to the right in the national conversation?

[B]

I mean, it's kind of the whole ballgame, isn't it? I mean, the way did you think

[A]

about it when you were at cnn? Like, were you aware of kind of like what was happening at Fox versus what was happening? And I don't mean to draw a line of equivalence between what happened at MSNBC as a former, as a former employee and current analyst, like, and what happens at Fox, I think that there's a very different standard for truth and integrity. But nonetheless, like, how aware were you of what was going on there versus what you guys were doing at cnn?

[B]

Boy, that is a, that's a good question. And it's a complicated question. I think CNN has, when I was there at cnn, there was always the feeling like, wow, we're getting pressed from both sides here and we're trying to stay in the middle, we're trying to do the news and so on. And Fox, I mean, they got going in the mid-90s and it was basically like, hey, we're gonna do a news network, but wink, wink, it's gonna be exactly what you think on the right. I don't think it's fair to compare MSNBC or Ms. Now to Fox because I think to a large extent Ms. Now is in the world of reality, insanity. You know what I mean? Like when you or Rachel or Lawrence are presenting a show over there, it's, you know, it's news. It may be opinionated news, but it's true. And it's from the real world. It's from Earth One over at Fox. I mean, during the January 6th insurrection, you had Fox anchors texting with Mark Meadows saying, hey, we better get Donald Trump under control or the 25th Amendment. I mean, that kind of shit was going down during January 6th. They got sued, they got the shit sued out of them because they were lying to the American people about the integrity of the 2020 election. That didn't happen anywhere else. To me, I think Fox is basically like the cigarette companies of the late 20th century when we were just about to get to the truth that they were manipulating the nicotine levels in the cigarettes in order to get everybody around the world hooked on cigarettes. I think Fox to a large extent has put together a product that hooks our senior citizens and people in those demographic groups. They get them hooked to outrage and race based kind of attack media, outrage media. And I think it's just totally destructive for our democracy. It is very destabilizing for our democracy. And when I was at cnn, there wasn't a whole lot you could do. It was sort of like, well, we're not going to go down that road. We can hold Donald Trump's feet to the fire and give him a hard time and so on, but we're not going to become so blindly partisan that we're now part of the problem too. And so I mean, look what the impact is. A large lion's share of the cable audience goes to Fox. A smaller, large portion of the audience goes to Ms. And then CNN is sort of stuck, just flailing, treading water, flailing in the middle. And I think they have had different iterations of, well, what do we do about this? And my sense is they just, they have not been able to figure out how to become more viable in the process. And my sense of it is that the best way to keep place like that in business is just to do no hold barred, tough ass journalism kind of stuff.

[A]

Which is what you were doing, which

[B]

is what we were doing during the first administration. The ratings were the best that they, I think ever were during January 6th. And I think that's what the public came to expect from that news organization. And I mean, you can have a conversation about, well, what happened after that and lots of different opinions there. But it seems to me that all of this sort of underlines the problem that we just, we have a very

[A]

poor

[B]

information system in this country that's just not meeting the moment.

[A]

I wonder, you know, you use the cigarette metaphor and I totally agree with you. It's like, oh, you guys are causing it harm to the American public. But Philip Morris may be called Altria or whatever the fuck it ended up being called. And cigarettes may not be consumed with the same abandon that they once were. But in their place you have like Zinn and like vape pens. And so in the way that Fox is increasingly an aging audience. Tucker Carlson isn't even at Fox anymore. He's doing his own podcast. Right. Like the most influential voices on the right are in many ways no longer on Fox. Fox is in some ways like a readout of like an older generation, like a gentler, kinder, conservative Montgomery Wards or something. Exactly. It's Megyn Kelly screaming about the super bowl and how it's a betrayal of America.

[B]

That's what happened. But here's, this is one of the, and people of memory hold a lot of this stuff. But this is part of the problem. Remember when Fox, during the 2020 election, they sort of had like this come to Jesus moment where they're starting to like present exactly again. But they saw the ratings hemorrhaging and going over to places like Newsmax and OAN and you know, Sean Hannity or whatever, they had a hissy fit and they decided to go back to doing bullshit and they became the bullshit factory again. And I just, you know, that was a really key moment, I think in our history because it helped. That was part of the process that I think helped resurrect Donald Trump. Yes, it was Kevin McCarthy and going down to Mar? A Lago, and yes, it was Mitch McConnell and not corralling enough senators to impeach, convict, and throw his ass out and keep him locked out forever and ever. But Fox going back to the dark side also put us on the path to where we are today, I think.

[A]

I wonder where, like, where do you see the power in terms of. In news and information right now? Like, and. And you can be as vague or specific as you want, because I. I do think, like, part of me, I believe in 2020, Fox was insanely important in terms of lying to the American public and then whitewashing Trump's lies and remains. But as I think about it, I just don't even. I still think, you know, in terms of audience size, institutional media is. Is. Is still the winner. But in terms of sphere of influence, I don't know that I would say it's at Fox anymore. I don't know that I would. I would not say it's. It's. I mean, like, is it. Joe Rogan is like. I mean, yeah, the most relevant, probably, right? How do you look at it in terms of, like, what if Trump, for example, tries to steal the 2026 election? Who needs to be the bulwark against that? And. Or who could greatly assist trying to steal another election?

[B]

I think that the podcast side of things has become very influential. I think Joe Rogan, people like him are now towering in influence in this industry. Not for better, definitely for worse. And I love it when I see Joe Rogan do a podcast. He's like, maybe Donald Trump is full of shit on this Epstein Files thing. And I'm like, yeah, no fucking shit, man.

[A]

38,000 times he's in there, dude.

[B]

Welcome to the party, pal. And I, you know, like, it's. A lot of this is very disingenuous, and a lot of this is, you know, they're doing things to get an audience and Megyn Kelly. Could there be a more repugnant person in American life today than Megyn Kelly? I mean, she says the other day, I want to feel sorry. Or am I supposed to feel sorry for Alex Party? But sorry, I don't. Like, fuck you. Like, what is wrong with you? Where's your soul?

[A]

I don't know. That's actually a very important question that I don't know the answer to.

[B]

But I do think that these performers, if I could call them that, they are now becoming much more influential in some cases than Fox. I think you're right about that. It is kind of a dying medium, like a Montgomery Wards or Sears or something like that. And we'll just have to see how this plays out. But I mean, to me, I always go back to that saying from Jurassic park, nature finds a way. And I think that the landscape is shifting. There are folks like you and me who are coming over to independent media. There are more folks from Earth One and the sane based, sanity based, reality based world coming over to independent media. And as that builds up and grows, hopefully we will coalesce and come together as a force too, in time for this to not all go completely down the shitter. But I do think that it is a reaction to legacy in corporate media sort of being in a shambles right now. Yeah, I think there are some exceptions. I think the Wall Street Journal has done some remarkable journalism. I've been kind of astonished by this, it being a Murdoch owned property. But they've gotten some Washington Post reporters over there and they're doing a dynamite job. They've sort of replaced the Washington Post as keeping the New York Times honest and staying competitive with them.

[A]

Wait, wait, let's just pause on that for a second.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jim Acosta saying that Rupert fucking Murdoch, he's too old. He's doing a better job of running a newspaper than Jeff Bezos. I don't disagree with you. I mean the reporting out of the Journal under duress, phenomenal, popular hot take.

[B]

But I do think that. I do think the Wall Street Journal has been kicking some ass lately in the thing with the spy shake the other day and that explosive story. They've been doing some great. The. The birthday book, I believe Wall street,

[A]

the birthday book, the Trump Epstein birthday book was. Was all the Wall Street Journal that was for which they were sued, I think $65 billion. I'm getting the number wrong. But some outlandish number by. Don't.

[B]

It'd be great if we could sue him back and make it. Make a bunch of fucking money.

[A]

I think that John Roberts. Fuck you, John Roberts.

[B]

Exactly. He Trump has called me crazy on Twitter. Can I sue him for. I mean I've not been adjudicated as a crazy person. Can I sue him for a billion?

[A]

You will after this podcast. I'll be like, did you hear him on Runaway Country? You do read books. You deserve a library. His is just going to be filled with like Shaq's shoe and I don't even know what else. I don't know Jim, I really appreciate, first of all, I think you're absolutely right. We're in some sort of pendulum swing here where you're going to see a greater collapse of institutional media. You'll see an even, I think, more florid flowering, to be redundant about it, of independent media. And then eventually there needs to be some institutionalization of independent media, which may mean no more than like, you know, smaller networks of independent producers or maybe a large network. But it won't make sense at a certain point to have 36,000 podcasts out there and people are going to want some kind of unified programming on offer.

[B]

Yeah, and Substack is already growing. I mean, it's doing gangbusters these days. And I know you're there and I'm there and a bunch of folks are there and a lot of people just go there to get their news now. And there's some great, like Paul Krugman is there, he writes amazing stuff. Joyce Vance. I mean, there's amazing people over there. And so I think it's kind of happening. It's just not, as you said, it's not coalescing in a way that is, I mean, I was just speaking with a guy earlier today about. I wish I could just go to a place like I used to go to for Walter Cronkite and the cbs. I'm sorry, sir, that does not exist right now.

[A]

No, Jim Acosta's in a hotel room and I'm in my basement. Like, we don't have that yet. We're not Cronkite. But I do think with consolidation, which is usually a bad word, there comes resourcing. And hopefully we can see a day where you can have a media ecosystem that champions independence and integrity, but also has some resources to have a Hong Kong bureau. You know what I mean?

[C]

Right.

[A]

That's not funded by the Amazon mogul. That's, I think, the lesson we've all learned the hard way.

[B]

Yeah, we need like a billionaire to make a deposit that cannot be withdrawn. Like it's just, it's just like a one way deal you put in, you plunk down a billion dollars, then you

[A]

get, you get no control. That's going to go over really well.

[B]

And then you go sell your widgets and leave us alone. Something like that would be good.

[A]

Thanks for the billion dollars. Fuck you. Go on your way. Jim Acosta is not a businessman. This we know. But goddamn, is he a great reporter. But I look forward to the moment at which someone offers us conjoined offices in our, in our new skyscraper media operation. But until then, I'm just gonna have to keep on inviting you back to this podcast. I'm very grateful for your time, my friend.

[B]

You're welcome anytime. Let's do it again for sure.

[A]

After the break. Putting this all into context with Jason Zengerly Runaway country is brought to you by Mosh. The old saying you are what you eat rings very true to all of us in the modern day. And I am always looking for an on the go protein snack that satisfies me. And now I found one that helps me live intentionally as well. Mosh Bars Mosh, which you may have heard about on Oprah's Favorite Things, was founded by Maria Shriver and her son Patrick Schwarzenegger of White Lotus fame with a very simple mission to create a conversation about brain health through food, education and research. Maria's father suffered from Alzheimer's and since then she and Patrick have dedicated themselves to finding ways to help other families dealing with this debilitating disease. MASH joined forces with the world's top scientists and functional nutritionists to go beyond your average protein bar. Each MASH bar is made with ingredients that support brain health like Ashwagandha, Lion's mane, collagen and omega 3s, plus a game changing brain boosting ingredient you won't find in any other bar. Mosh donates a portion of all proceeds from your order to fund gender based brain health research through the Women's Alzheimer movement. Why gender based? Well, because 2/3 of all Alzheimer's patients are women, Mosh is working closely to close the gap between women and men's health health research. I mean listen, I love a bar. It's easy. You put it in the bag, you can eat it in the car on the subway walking around. This one has the protein plus very sexy ingredients like Lion's mane, collagen and Ashwagandha and also is helping close the gender gap like say no more. Put that bar in my bag. If you want to find ways to give back to others and fuel your body and your brain, Mosh bars are the perfect choice for you. Head to moshlife.com Alex to save 20% off plus free shipping on the Bestsellers Trial Pack or the new Plant based trial pack that's 20% off plus free shipping on the either the Bestsellers Trial Pack or the Plant based trial pack at M-O-S-H-L-I-F E.com Alex thank you Mosh for supporting this episode. Runaway country is brought to you by Miracle Made. Do you Ever wake up sweaty, freezing or just uncomfortable? Every night, the temperature in your bedroom can make or break your sleep. I mean it's so true. That's why I switched to Miracle Made Sheets. They are inspired by NASA technology and they use silver infused temperature regulating fabric to help you sleep perfectly all night long. Miracle made sheets are crafted with NASA inspired silver infused fabric that helps regulate your body temperature. Are you a hot sleeper? Are you a cold sleeper? It doesn't matter. These sheets help keep you in the comfort zone all night long. And don't you want to sleep in the comfort zone? Thanks to their antibacterial silver technology, Miracle made sheets stay cleaner and fresher up to three times longer than regular sheets. That means fewer odors, fewer wash cycles and way less laundry. All that hidden bacteria in regular sheets? It can clog your pores and cause breakouts. Miracle Maid's antibacterial design helps you sleep cleaner and clearer night after night. Upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. Go to trymiracle.com Alex to try miracle made sheets today you'll save over 40% and when you use promo code Alex you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three piece towel set. They make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee there is zero risk. That's trymiracle.com Alex Code Alex@ checkout. Thank you to Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. Jason the book is both specific and sort of not universal, but Tucker is a vehicle for better understanding what's happened to conservatism and to some degree the Republican Party in the last, I'll call it half decade or decade. God, I have no sense of time anymore.

[C]

It's a flat circle.

[A]

Yeah, time is a dimension. One of the things that stands out to me is the way in which rejection is so much the origin story for the most prominent conservatives in America right now. And Tucker Carlson is no different. Right. Like, we know that Trump is not taken seriously as a political candidate. He's kind of a carnival barker, reality TV clown. He's not a real businessman, at least as far as the New York mockers are concerned, and is always intent on proving himself. JD Vance is rejected from like the sort of liberal elites of academia and Yale. And I would argue that some of his political positioning is just purely to own the libs. Right? But Tucker also has a rejection story and it's there are personal aspects of it and professional and I wonder. I know this is like almost the entirety of the book, but of the rejections that he Faced of the excommunications that he's faced with, especially professionally, which do you think were most formative, especially for people who haven't read the book? Tell us the story a little bit about how this man became who he is.

[C]

Well, I mean, he was a very successful magazine writer, very young magazine writer, but extremely successful, and was on, like, a trajectory that, you know, I think would have had him at the top of the profession had he stuck with it. But I think he recognized that being at the top of the profession of, you know, print journalism really wasn't gonna mean all that much. So he switched over to television, and he had some initial success there. But then he suffered this really kind of profound humiliation in 2004 when he was hosting Crossfire. And Jon Stewart went on the show and came into the Crossfire studio just kind of loaded for bear to give a critique of Crossfire, and a critique that basically was saying that the show was hurting America, that it was play acting, it was pro wrestling, it was just a bunch of hacks. And he went after Tucker in particular. You know, he. He made fun of him for wearing a bow tie, which was Tucker's signature look at the time. I mean, he called him a dick, you know, and Crossfire was.

[A]

God forbid, part of me is. I mean, I get. I get it.

[C]

2004.

[A]

Yeah. Right. Okay. No, that was. Things were different back then.

[C]

Yeah. At the time, it was. It was shocking. And, you know, Crossfire had a studio audience, and, like, the studio audience is, like, cheering Stewart on and, like, taking his side. And now this is theater.

[B]

I mean, it's. It's obvious. How old are you?

[C]

35.

[B]

And you wear a bow tie. Yeah, I do.

[C]

I do. So this is.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I know. You're a bright.

[C]

Let me just go now.

[B]

Come on.

[C]

And listen, I'm not.

[B]

I'm not suggesting that you're not. You're not a smart guy, because those

[C]

are not easy to tie.

[B]

But the thing is that this. You're doing theater when you should be doing debate, which would be great.

[C]

It's not honest. What you do is how. I'm honest.

[B]

What you do is partisan hackery.

[C]

And I. And I'll tell you why, like, a month or two after that happened, CNN canceled Crossfire, and Tucker left the network. And it was. I mean, it was like a pretty, you know, devastating career blow. And, you know, Tucker was, like, very much a member of the club of, like, sort of the, you know, elite DC journalism, political circles, and. And he remained a member of the club, but I think he felt that the people in that club didn't come to his defense, like, didn't get his back. They, you know, they took Stewart', they, they ratified Stewart's critique. And I think that kind of planted a seed of resentment that, you know, and then, and then he, you know, and then he struggled after that. He didn't do well in cable news. He was at MSNBC for a while, got fired from there. He eventually got picked up at Fox, but he was, you know, a really like low level third tier pundit there. He was hosting the weekend show and I think he started to feel like, you know, the world didn't really sufficiently appreciate his talents and wasn't taking advantage of them and that, you know, that kind of furthered the resentment.

[A]

As someone who has been fired from MSNBC and hosted a weekend show, I just, I do have to ask, is his ego, do you think, particularly fragile? Because I certainly didn't whip around and say, like, fuck the elites, like, fuck media, fuck, you know, it's just his. And certainly there's more to the story than just that, right? Like, definitely. And the Fox chapter is absolutely relevant in all of this and how he becomes such a, well, important voice, if not the central voice at Vox. Right. And his relationship with the Murdochs. But without rehashing every bit of his history, I just, I wonder if you have an assessment of his, I don't wanna say personal failings, but his personal weaknesses. Cause it does feel like, I mean, I'm sure it sucks for Jon Stewart to be making fun of you and have like, you know, this sort of like the Coliseum cheering for Jon Stewart.

[C]

And it was like the first viral. Yeah, it was like the first viral video moment. I mean, it was like it went well beyond just you, the air that day. It was kind of everywhere. And yeah, I mean, I don't know, I've never experienced that kind of humiliation.

[A]

Yes, I mean, I don't know, I've experienced some different forms of humiliation in terms of like, you know, being fired, being canceled, all that shit. And there is a scar tissue that builds up, but I am struck. And I mentioned Trump and Vance and Carlson in particular because by all outside accounts, at one point they were more sort of integrated into society. They were operating, they were swimming in the same waters. And then there's just something that happens to them and I, And I guess maybe this is a good time to talk about Tucker's, you know, after he's cast off from Fox for reasons that remain unclear. And I'm not gonna Ask you to pontificate because it's. Everybody has a theory, no one knows. Yeah, he like becomes, he starts playing footsie and then outright embracing what the Atlantic calls like the, the intellectual edgelords of the gop, like these kind of ra. Whether it's Peter Thiel and like Caesarism, which is calling for like autocracy and like an iron fist, or you know, Nick Fuentes and white nationalism and anti Semitism, he really starts drinking a particularly venomous tasting Kool Aid.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, he was like tiptoeing towards them even before he got fired from Fox. I mean, like he had Curtis Yarbin on his Fox show.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

You know, and he's, I mean the thing that he was doing at Fox and I think he's still doing it to a certain degree is he's, he's actually doing it more now, but in a different way. Like he was very good at like taking these like really extreme right wing fringe ideas, you know, in the darkest corners of the Internet and like smuggling them on to primetime on Fox and presenting them in a more palatable way. So, you know, like, great replacement theory,

[A]

I think is probably an example of that.

[C]

But like I, you know, you gotta hope like that the median 70something Fox viewer, if they were to encounter great replacement theory, like on the Daily Stormer, you know, like in its rawest, purest form, they would be like, oh God, I can't, I can't be down with this. But then Tucker presents it and he's like, you know, I'm just asking questions and you can't deny. And they're like, oh, this makes sense. And I think he was kind of doing that before. I mean, definitely since he has left Fox, like the guardrails are off, he's gone further and further. I think he has to do that in part because he doesn't have the built in Fox audience. So he needs to generate interest and outrage and sort of outright saying this stuff is one of the strategies he has. I think he also, he has like a really good political and professional radar. I think it's, you know, it's finally honed and it's been really good over the past 10 years. And the fact that he's doing this stuff, I mean, I think he's making the calculus that, you know, to be successful in conservative media and conservative politics these days, like you kind of need the neo Nazis on your side and that's where he thinks the energy is. And you know, it'll be really like interesting and scary to see if he's proven right. But I feel like that that explains a lot of his. His recent moves and his recent statements.

[A]

Well, and that's a ca. I think, for the Republican Party on whole. Right. I mean, at first it's like you're sort of just asking questions about neo Nazism, and then you arrive at the calculation that your party or your channel or your podcast or your audience doesn't exist without the neo Nazis in the room.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I guess, I wonder. I know you didn't interview Tucker for the book, but you've known him for a while and you obviously did your homework here. Do you have a sense of how much it's just audience maintenance and how much it is genuinely like other. A very smart person? I mean, you read early Tucker Carlson articles and even. And I say this as someone who used to have a cable show where you have, you know, and I learned at the hand of Rachel Maddow, like, the people that can do those long monologues and, like, write for themselves, it's a specific art and it requires rigor. Right. Like. And he is not a dummy, but he has become so dangerous, I think, in his rhetoric and his positions. I just wonder how much it is just. Just kind of like clickbaity and how much it is just a person who has been brought over to the darkest end of the conservative universe.

[C]

I guess. I guess I think it's a combination. Like, I think that I. I mean, I. I guess I. You know, it's not. It's not like, ratings and clickbait as much or it's not clickbait for ratings. I don't think, like, I do think Tucker is like. He's, like, not. I don't. I don't really think there's a media figure anymore. I mean, I think he's kind of like a. He's a movement leader at this point, and I think he wants to stay, you know, a step ahead of the movement and where it's going so he can capitalize on whatever the numbers are. And I think that's what he's doing. You know, that said, like, whether it starts out as kind of like a cynical ploy and it involves audience capture, you know, I think it's just human nature that if you say something enough and especially if you're rewarded for saying it and you have success saying it, you. You do kind of come to believe it. You kind of supply. Yeah. And I. I think that. And I think that happens probably a lot in television. I mean, you know, better. It seems like, you Know, you kind of, like, live in this little bubble of, you know, constant affirmation. It would. It would sort of go to your head, and you would start to believe these things. So I think that's happening a bit. But, you know, he. He articulates these things in such a way, and he says it sort of with such conviction. I mean, you kind of do have to believe that he.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think authenticity is actually the thing that matters maybe most. Not even accuracy, but authenticity in this new media landscape. The New York Times, in a review of your book, has this line that really stuck out to me. Carlson's darkest impulses were nurtured and fanned by a rapidly evolving media landscape. Character meets technology. And that, I think is really important is, like, he's going through this thing, or maybe you can't separate the two. But the way in which he's in this, completely uncensored, in many ways hermetically sealed, he's broadcasting from. As you've pointed out in other interviews, he lives on two islands, both physically and kind of metaphorically. Right. He's, like, in his barn in Maine, or he's in Florida on a different island, and he's kind of unto himself. And what is most resonant and what the best feedback he gets is probably the most incendiary stuff he tackles.

[C]

Yeah. He lives in a different reality, I think, from. I would say. I mean. And I think people in that reality would say we live in a different reality.

[A]

Well, yeah, I mean, let's talk a little bit about how his reality intersects and influences other conservatives, because he has an interesting relationship with Trump. Right. It has its ups and downs. I wonder if you could give me your assessment of where it stands today and the degree to which there is any sense that, like, the playing field isn't big enough for those two big dogs.

[C]

I think the playing field is big enough just because I think Trump is going away. It's. I mean, at some point, he's going away, and I think.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And I. And I. So I think. I think they can coexist, and I think they do. I mean, as I understand it from others, like, they do actually, like, genuinely get along. Like, they enjoy each other because, like, you know, they're both, like, you know, they're. They're kind of good company, I guess. You know, they say outrageous shit, and they, you know, kind of enjoy that back and forth. You know, he. He. He wants to be perceived as being close to Trump, whereas, like, in Trump's first presidency, when he was still on Fox. I think he was very wary of being perceived as, like, being a Trump person. He's obviously very pro maga and, you know, pro sort of what Trump was doing, but didn't want to be seen as, like, a Trump lackey, per se.

[A]

Like Sean Hannity.

[C]

Exactly like Sean Hannity. I think that was, you know, he. I think he wanted to avoid the Sean Hannity trap, basically. You know, so, like, he wouldn't, like, like, go visit Trump at the White House. He wouldn't call him. If Trump called him. He would, like, let the call to go to voicemail sometimes this time around. And I think this has to do with him not being on Fox and needing to sort of stay, you know, kind of relevant and have people pay attention to him. He. He wants people to know that he and Trump talk. I mean, you know, he. He goes to the White House, he gets photographed there. You know, he had, like, lunch at the White House on two consecutive Fridays. And, you know, his business partner is in the Oval Office taking pictures of him that then he tweets out on social media. Like, he. He wants it known that he's. He's close to Trump. And, you know, as I write in the book, like, he was. He was like, an extremely influential, like, person during the 2024 campaign and into the transition. I mean. I mean, he got, you know, J.D. vance, the vice presidential slider was one of the people pushing for Vance. And then Vance was ultimately picked. He pushed hard for Bobby Kennedy at HHS and Tulsi Gabbard or even, like, sub count, sub cabinet.

[A]

Thanks. Thanks, Tucker.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. These are all. These are all people that Tucker brought

[A]

us, Murderer's Rove talent.

[C]

I mean, he's, you know, he doesn't win every fight. I mean, you know, he. He was.

[A]

Iran.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Venezuela.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, Greenland. Well, I don't. Yeah, well, Greenland hasn't happened yet. Right. So maybe.

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

The thing about Venezuela that was interesting to me at least, was, you know, he. He opposed it beforehand and. And his reasons for opposing it were. Were absolutely nuts. I mean, he was. He was saying it was the. The Globo Homo forces were going to do it because they wanted to get gay marriage into Venezuela because I guess Maduro was against gay marriage. But after Trump did it, he kind of, like, backed off. Tucker backed off a little bit. He didn't really criticize it. He kind of offered it qualified support, saying, you know, he didn't decapitate the entire government. He just did one guy. So it's not going to be like, Iraq and we're going to take their oil. And that's good. So. So I feel like. I thought that was interesting because I almost felt like he wanted to save face. You know, he wanted people to still think he was influential. But he's clearly someone that Trump likes and enjoys and definitely listens to. And I think, you know, I think when it comes to, like, J.D. vance, like, I think the relationship is even tighter than his one with Trump. Like, there, like, there's a real kind of. I think there's a personal kind of relationship, but there's also an intellectual, you know, partnership. Partnership there that I think is pretty. It's pretty strong if you.

[A]

I just remember from the Dominion lawsuit, Tucker understood that 2020 hadn't been stolen. The election, I mean, and then sort of gradually does a 180 and then is all of a sudden, you know, looking at the raw video footage and just becomes a truther on that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I asked this because, you know, we're talking about this in the season of Trump saying we need to nationalize elections. I'm seizing 700 boxes of ballot from Fulton county and saying explicitly, like, you can't really trust blue states or blue cities to run their own elections. There's fraud in Detroit and Philadelphia and Atlanta. Do you sense, I guess, as it concerns that particular chapter, that any of Carlson's instincts about reality and democracy and preserving the system that any of those still apply as we barrel towards potential more cries of election interference and a fraudulent election in 2026 or 2020?

[C]

It sure doesn't seem that way. I mean, you just look at the way. I mean, yeah, he, you know, in the immediate aftermath of the 2020 elections, like, both off air, but even on air, you know, like, he, like, sort of, you know, detonated Sidney Powell on his show. I mean, he was like the only person at Fox, it seemed like, who wasn't going along with all the, you know, the election was fake stuff initially. Now, like, he doesn't say anything about it. And. And when he does say stuff that kind of is tangentially related to it, the way he handled the ICE stuff in Minnesota, I thought was pretty telling. He's not. He passed. He got over the lowest bar of basically expressing horror and empathy about the killings of Preddy and Good, which a lot of conservative pundits did not do. So I guess credit to him for that. But then he. Yeah, seriously low bar. But. But then he immediately changed the focus to the protesters and how, you know, they were paid agitators and this, you know, and they're put up to it by lefty groups and. And, you know, lefty politicians, and they're trying to bring chaos to the entire United States, and they're against whiteness and they're against Christianity. I mean, that kind of stuff. It makes me think that if and when these efforts to kind of hijack the elections come, like, I don't think he's going to be standing up saying, this is bad.

[A]

I don't think we're doing anything to disabuse people, theorists who are trying to aid Trump in his consolidation.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I guess it'll be interesting to see if he's like, an active, you know, kind of promoter of them or if he just, you know, tries to change the focus in some way.

[A]

More of my conversation with Jason in just a minute. But first, in this political hellscape, it is hard to sort what is news and what is noise. And that is where Crooked's what A Day newsletter comes in. Each afternoon, Matt Berg delivers a quick, accessible roundup of the day's top stories planned, plus sharp analysis and original reporting that you won't find anywhere else. Want more stories that actually matter? Sign up for the what A day [e-mail] daily. We talked a little bit about the Vance. You touched on the partnership, the intellectual partnership between Vance and Carlson. I wonder if you could talk more about that, because it seems to me, and you've said this on this podcast and others, that Tucker doesn't see himself as a media guy. He sees himself as a movement guy.

[C]

Yeah. And Vance is like, the vehicle right now, I think.

[A]

Well, but also, couldn't Tucker be the vehicle? I mean, I know everybody's wondering, like, is. Or. And this book is written at an opportune time. Like, is Tucker gonna be a candidate? And how would that work? Because Don Jr. Would be forced to make a Sophie's Choice or not. Right. Like, how could he choose between Tucker? Very tough for Don Jr very intense love triangle.

[C]

Yeah, I don't. Well, I think. I think for Don Junior's sake, it's probably not going to come to a head anytime soon. I think that I. I don't. I don't think that Tucker, like, has, like, you know, the fire in the belly or whatever you want to call it to be president. I don't think.

[A]

What does he have, though? He has the grievance. He has.

[B]

He has.

[C]

No. And he has ambition. And he has ambition.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, he definitely has the ambition. I mean, he has, like, an ideological project. And he has a. He has a vision for this country that he wants to see realized. But I don't think he feels he has to be president to do that. Like, he want. I mean, I think. I think if J.D. vance can, you know, achieve that, like, he'll be very happy and probably relieved because he wouldn't have to do it himself. I mean, I think the two things that could sort of, you know, spark some kind of falling out with Vance would be one, like Vance, you know, getting off the bus and be like, well, maybe I don't want to, you know, sort of have to suck up to Nick Fuentes to be president. Or number two, And I think this is probably more likely would be Tucker realizing, like. Like, J.D. vance doesn't really have what it takes to actually get elected president. He's not.

[A]

You can't order donuts. You can't order donuts.

[C]

Yeah, no, there's something. I mean, there is. You compare him, especially to Trump, like, and this is where I think Tucker would be a pretty plausible presidential candidate, especially someone coming after Trump. He has charisma, he has entertainment sort of talent in a way that, like, Vance and. And really any sort of Republican politician I look at these days, like, doesn't.

[A]

And he believes. He seems to have conviction that.

[C]

Yeah, no, he believes this stuff. He believes it. He believes it a lot more than Trump does, I think. Like, and, you know, I could just sort of see him saying, like, all right, well, if no one. If no one else can do it, then I'll do it myself. But I think it would have to come to that, basically, him not being able to find, like, a vessel that he could, you know, sort of pour himself into.

[A]

I wonder. I'm going to make a parallel here, and you tell me if you think this is, like, a good one or not, but in the way that Bannon is kind of Trump's Iago, like, sitting on the sidelines in his podcast and trying to give Trump markers for the center of gravity as far as where the conservative movement is. I wonder if a similar relationship doesn't exist or could be emerge between Vance and Carlson if Vance was the nominee or. It's hard for me to say this even president. Like, is he the sort of Rasputin of the court? Does he see the power in that? And. And also, like, what a sign of the times that, like, Bannon's sort of white populism has now transmogrified into Tucker Carlson's, like, straight up anti semitic, white nationalist, like, racism.

[C]

Whoa.

[A]

Making me miss Steve Bannon.

[C]

I know. Seriously. No, that's a really. Yeah, that's a really good analogy. I hadn't thought of that, but that's. I think you're right.

[A]

I feel like it seems like that. Right? Like.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like your guy on the outside that has. Knows the hearts and minds kind of of where people are at.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know if. I don't know if Tucker, like, thinks of himself as kind of the 4D chess player that Bannon does. Yeah, but, but I, but I, but you're. Yeah, I think you're actually. That's, That's a. Yeah, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.

[A]

And Don and, and Don Jr. Can we talk a little bit about the relationship? I'm always fascinated in the Trump children and like, you know, the degree to which they can unplug from the mainframe and act as independent operators.

[C]

Yeah, I think, I think Tucker and Don Jr. I think, like, there was a period where Tucker was, like, much better friends with Don Jr. Than he was. Was with, with Trump Senior. I think he, I think he and Don Jr. Like, get along really well. You know, they have this, like, hunting thing that they, they bond over. And, I mean, and after, you know, after the 2020 election when, when Tucker was really down on Trump and really for the first year or so, you know, and Trump was trying to reach out to him and Tucker was stiff arming him and like, Don Jr. Was the one who kind of like brokered the, the rapprochemy, like, went up to Maine and went hunting with Tucker. And, you know, I think sort of said, my dad wants to see you. And then Tucker eventually went down to New Jersey. But I think that, I think Don in some ways is like, he's like the real MAGA guy, more than, more than his dad. I mean, like, there's that testimony that Bannon gave, I forget to what Senate, one of the congressional committees investigated probably

[A]

his contempt of Congress. I don't know, whatever. How many times has he testified? Go ahead.

[C]

But he was talking. It was back. He was talking about Don Jr. And, you know, the meeting he tried to set up up with the people who had dirt on Hillary and he. And bandits this on, like, you know, Don Jr. Is someone who believes everything he reads in Breitbart. And I mean, that. Well, it was just like. But that really is like, that Don

[A]

Jr. Is fully red pilled.

[C]

Yeah, he's. Yeah. Truly red pilled and obviously so conversant in this online stuff that you know, and that's the world that Tucker and J.D. vance now kind of inhabit.

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, your modern day Republican Party. I gotta ask you, I mean, I know we were evaluating him as a sort of political figure, a movement figure, but to the degree that institutional media still exists. And I say this as we speak on a crooked podcast and we talk about a book that was released on crooked media books like the. I have to ask, this is sort of adjacent to the book. But when you look at the Ellison's taking over CBS and you look at Bezos gutting the Washington Post, what influence, if any, do you think Tucker and maybe even Megyn Kelly spinning off and doing their own thing and proving there's an Audi like showing, I guess these people who are inclined to believe this, that there's a real audience in terms of young right wing, you know, minds and hearts that can be convinced and want the content. Like, how much do you think? I guess he influences what's happening in terms of media and the right word lurch and I would argue atrophy.

[C]

I think to a good degree. I mean, you've already seen Fox, you know, try to buy back, you know, the Megyn Kelly and Tucker podcasts. I mean, the CBS one's like maybe a little bit more complicated just because, you know, Tucker and Barry just, despite now being related by marriage, are kind of at each other's throats because Tucker accuses her of being Mossad.

[A]

Right. That's the whole anti Semitic. That is the conundrum of the anti Semitic thing.

[C]

Yeah. So I don't know how that fits in, but. No, I do think that there is this definitely sense among institutional media that the energy especially and the younger sort of audiences are to be found in this kind of new world of streaming and podcasting and companies that are not sort of hemmed in by all these kind of legacy. Legacy rules and structures and the like. And yeah, I think seeing Tucker's success has gotta influence them in terms of what directions they go in. I mean, I think they're still gonna be. They're not gonna go as far as he.

[A]

They're not gonna be maybe talking about great replacement theory yet. But I, yeah, I mean, I also think it's just how far right the pendulum has swung gives cover to both sides ism when it comes to, oh, I don't know what happened in Minnesota. Right. Like there's just that he had. Has been important in shifting the Overton window. I never say that phrase. I leave that to Chris Hayes usually. But it seems apropos on this case.

[C]

Yeah, no, that's very true. Yeah.

[A]

Does his distaste for, like, elites and Washington, D.C. where he used to live before he went to the Isle of Elba in Maine. Does his distaste extend to institutional media? I mean, I just think about, like, when the Washington Post is crumbling. Is that a scalp for Tucker Carlson then?

[C]

Yeah, I think so. I think he, he's cheering that on. I mean, he's probably conflicted because he hates Jeff Bezos or, you know, he thinks, I mean, he's, you know, he, he's not someone who's going to throw in with like the, the tech oligarchs and stuff. I think he's, he has questions about them, you know, that are similar, I think, to Bannon's questions. But, but yeah, I think he, you know, I think he has a sort of tear it all down mentality. I mean, you know, this is a guy who, you know, used to like, be. He. I think he used to have like a weekly chat on the Washington Post, like, website.

[A]

Well, he used to have an MSNBC show and a CNN show, like.

[C]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

[A]

Does he still wear bow ties?

[C]

No, no, no. This is, it's been. No, after Jon Stewart, he took it off and he's, it's funny because like, like the COVID of the book has him with the bow tie and I was like, arguing with the, the art people and you know, saying like, he hasn't worn one in 20 years. And they're like, yeah, people always think of him.

[A]

He's in my lizard brain. As, I mean, obviously on his podcast he doesn't wear them, but I still think of him as someone who will appear in a bow tie.

[C]

He wears a reptile. He always wears a blue. It's usually like a blue and red stripe or a blue and like yellow stripe. I mean, he, you know, he, he, although he's obviously a huge populace now, like, he, he, he still plays, he leans into his waspishness. I mean, he's, he's basically playing the world class traitor. You know, he has like the reptile and the Rolex and he, he like actually like drinks from a Perrier bottle. He, you know, I think he. And it's very similar to what Trump does, you know, because I think that gives him authenticity in the eyes of the audience because he can say, you know, I was in the room with these people, I knew all of them and I knew the bad things they were saying about you, and I'm here to tell you about that.

[A]

Yeah, Just like he can be. I mean, build a $400 million ballroom at the precise point that affordability is a major issue with the American public because he's the rich guy that knows how to game the system and make America great again. Do you have, I mean, and I know this book focuses more on. This is sort of professional development, but I wonder if Tucker the man, like we know his mother abandoned him. This is the origin story is being abandoned by your mother. That's where it all fucking starts. He's still married to his wife. He doesn't play golf. Cause he likes to have sex. He tells people. Ha ha ha. Actually, but true, I thought that was

[C]

a pretty good line.

[A]

It is just like hated by all the right people. Viktor Orban, does he have a social circle that he interacts with anymore? I mean, I know he used to be kind of like the party trick at Washington dinner parties, but he's on these islands. Surely he hangs out with the Trumps. But does he have a circle of people who ever challenge him?

[C]

I don't think they ever challenge him, but his circle, yeah, it's like the, you know, his circle is what you would imagine. Just, you know, it's the Trumps, it's, it's the Ovon. It's, you know, it's, it's that, it's that crew. It's, you know, it's the, it's the people in sort of the Trump administration. It is, I mean, I think it's J.D. vance and then it's like this counter elite that they have created. Created, you know, the, the Peter Thiels of the world. And that's, that's kind of, that's, that's the sort of the ocean that he swims in now. He's, you know, he's traded in kind of one elite for another.

[A]

That's so ironic. Yeah. I have to ask you, as, on behalf of concerned citizens all over this country, but in your, in your witnessing this evolution and this, this push towards the extremities of conservatism, which I would argue are no longer even conservatism, but just straight up anti Semitism, neo Nazism and white nationalism, could you ever foresee a reverse, could you ever foresee Tucker chilling the fuck out and maybe deprogramming himself a little bit from the Maga cults, do you think such a thing is possible? Like given what you know about this man and his convictions and to the degree to which he's been red pilled,

[C]

I mean, he's pretty, he's Walked pretty far out there on the tree limb. Right. I mean, it's hard to imagine him coming back. It seems like if this stuff ultimately gets repudiated and the movement fails, I think it would be hard for him to reinvent himself. And that's the only thing.

[A]

One more time.

[C]

Yeah. I just think he's gone far enough and people's memories will be long enough that it's. He has come back into the embrace of, you know, elites multiple times. You know, they vote, you know, like, I mean, it's in the book, but, you know, when he, like, started the Daily Call or his website, the way like, you know, Jake Tapper and people like that, like, rallied around it and were supporting him, you know, after he'd kind of been in the wilderness a little bit, like, you know, it sort of spoke to kind of the. The clubbishness. Right. Like, I think that's over. Like, that no one's gonna welcome him back now. So I think he. And I think he knows that. I think he knows that he's, you know, he's sort of severed any kind of. Kind of connection that he's had to that world. So I can't imagine he would. He would try to come back to it. I mean, maybe he'd reposition himself, you know, on. On the far right and find some other vehicle. But, like, coming back Hungary. Yeah. Yeah. No, he could go join Roger in Budapest, you know, I mean, seriously. Or like Cutter. Right. Didn't he just, like, he's gonna move to. Did you see that he's always.

[A]

Cutter. No, I didn't.

[C]

Oh, he's. He apparently is going to buy a house there.

[A]

No. Well, that makes sense.

[C]

Yeah. And he really likes Saudi Arabia. He talks about how it's so free. So, I mean. Yeah, you could sort of.

[A]

Yes. Great guy.

[C]

Yeah. They're like IDI Amin kind of parallels you could draw, maybe, but sure.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

No, this seems like a good play. That's a good final chapter, isn't it? Just going to. Just going to Saudi Arabia. Have you heard from Tucker since the book came out?

[C]

I have not, no. No. I saw he gave a quote last week to Michael Calderon saying that he didn't even know it was out. And he doesn't know anyone. Doesn't know anyone would buy it because he's not that interest. So that's all I've seen. But I think he's over in Saudi right now or in Jordan. So maybe when he gets back.

[A]

I'm not sure when you think of him, and you are a student of him. Is this the inevitable. I mean the reason the book is so relevant, I mean it would be relevant, I would argue all the time just cause Tucker Carlson is a singular figure in American life. But it really feels like he is a placeholder for the Republican Party and like witnessing how it goes from this kind of bow tie George Will insight, the beltway, we can negotiate things together to this full throated crazy like edgelord. White nationalism is also the story of Tucker Carlson's evolution. When you wrote the book, how much were you thinking not just about the man, but about the party?

[C]

Oh, I was totally thinking about the party. I mean, I like and Tucker's interesting, but he's not that interesting and I could not, I did not want to write a book about him. So like, you know, when you talk about the stuff with his mom, like, you know, I, I mean I obviously mention it in the book, but it's not, I don't spend a lot of time putting him on the couch. Like I'm interested in him as a professional because you know, the, just the, his professional journey kind of tells and his political journey kind of tells this much larger story and the institutions that he helped create and were a part of, like they tell this story as well. So that, yeah, that was the whole, that was the whole idea behind the book. I mean he is a good character. I mean and he's, you know, he's a compelling figure and, and I mean, I guess I'm a little surprised that he is as central to our politics at this very moment that I didn't think he would quite, I mean, I didn't think he would be having a New York Times front page story every month about kind of his latest thing. And the way that the Nick Fuentes interview fractured the conservative movement in such a fashion. When Donald Trump sat down with him, it didn't do this. I didn't think he would be quite so central in that respect. But at the same time, I think so much of what's going on right now is these people trying to getting their elbows out and trying to position for what MAGA is going to be when Trump leaves. And that's where you and Tucker is going to be a huge player in that fight and he might not win, but he certainly is representing a side and he's, I think, you know, probably one of the one or two most important people in the fight. So, so that, you know, I think that's why he's important to pay attention to and also to like take seriously. You know, I think like you for sure. He's not sort of a sideshow figure. He's actually like very important.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I totally. I could not agree more. It is a really good read. It's a very, like I said, it's super timely and it is, I dare say, entertaining, which I hate, using the word entertainment with Tucker Carlson. Cause I think what he does is so venomous and deadly serious and destructive.

[C]

But.

[A]

But, you know.

[C]

But he does it with flair.

[A]

Yeah, he does. Certainly does it with flair. Jason, congrats on the book and thank you for offering your thoughts on all of it. It's great to have you on the show.

[C]

Thanks a lot for having me on. I appreciate it.

[A]

That is our show for this week. As always, if you've been impacted directly by the Trump administration and its policies, send us an email or a one minute voice [e-mail] and we may be in touch to feature your story. A huge thank you to everyone who's written in already. Last but not least, please don't forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkowski. Our producer is Emma Ilick Frank. Production support from Megan Larson and Lacey Roberts. The show is mixed and edited by Charlotte Landis. Ben Hethcote is our video producer and Matt de Groat is our head of production. Audio support comes from Kyle Seglin. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. Katie Long is our executive producer of development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.