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- [00:00]
Alex Wagner
Runaway country is brought to you by Fable. I have broken enough glasses in my life, and my children have broken enough in my life to know that delicate and durable do not usually belong in the same sentence. Fable is changing that. Fable's sleek, modern glassware is made in Japan and it's ultra thin and lightweight. It's the kind that feels elegant in your hand, but here's what sets it apart. It goes through a special ion toughening process that makes it 1.6 times more durable than regular glass and scratch resistant and dishwasher safe glasses you can actually use every single day without having to worry about being too precious. Whether you are pouring cocktails on your patio this summer or just making your morning iced coffee feel a little bit more intentional, this is the kind of thing that quietly upgrades every moment at home. Visit fable.com crooked and use crooked15 for 15% off your order. That's fable.com crooked 15% off and a better way to bring things home this
- [00:58]
Robert Faturechi
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- [01:29]
Alex Wagner
Big color, bigger savings. Sherwin Williams Super Sale is here. Get 40% off paints and stains June 5th through the 11th, with prices starting at $3,089. Whether you're refreshing your interior or exterior, we've got the colors to bring your vision to life. And with delivery, getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online to have it delivered or visit your neighborhood Sherwin Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales. Only some exclusions apply. See store for details. Delivery available on qualifying orders. Hi everyone. The war in Iran is back on again. Not that it was ever really off. Gas prices continue to climb. Healthcare costs are exploding. Wages are up, but not enough to outpace inflation. Is the Trump administration doing anything well, anything at all? Well, turns out, yes. Corruption. The Trump administration is doing corruption very, very well. Now, you already know about President Trump's $1.8 million slush fund for rioters. And despite whatever swing state Senate Republicans might tell you, that has yet to be outlawed Just don't ask Trump about it like NBC's Kristen Welker did on Meet the Press over the weekend.
- [02:41]
Ben Rhodes
I don't know what's gonna happen with the weaponization front. I love the idea because the fake dirty press, the crooked press, people like stupid Biden, he's not smart enough to know what's going on, but people that
- [02:56]
Alex Wagner
surrounded him, surrounded his beautiful Resolute desk
- [03:01]
Ben Rhodes
in the Oval Office. What they did to the lives of people, they destroyed people.
- [03:06]
Alex Wagner
They sent people to jail who did nothing wrong. Just to be very clear, there's no evidence of what you're saying. The slush fund is one of the more recent public examples of Trumpian corruption. But do not forget his pump and dump crypto scheme. The $400 million fake Air Force One gifted from the government of Qatar. The pardoning of money launderers and white collar criminals who have donated to Trump's campaigns. The millions of dollars that managed to disappear from Trump's presidential library fund. Donald Trump's initial library fund, it disappeared.
- [03:41]
Ben Rhodes
Gone.
- [03:41]
Alex Wagner
So where did all those millions of dollars go? And how do we know that money isn't sitting in Donald Trump's bank account? The thousands of stock trades while in office and the financing of a ballroom that nobody asked for, with millions of dollars in private donations with strings very much attached. Here's Ms. Now's Ali Velshi.
- [04:03]
Robert Faturechi
More than half of the publicly identified donors to President Donald Trump's White House ballroom project have won new or expanded
- [04:11]
Ben Rhodes
federal contracts worth more than $50 billion
- [04:16]
Robert Faturechi
during the past six months.
- [04:18]
Alex Wagner
But if you think the eye watering corruption centers on only Trump himself, not so fast. Some of the most brazen examples of this particular form of Trump rot involve the Trump children. Yes, there is Ivanka's wipeout of nature. Her planned 10,000 room resort on an ecological preserve off the coast of Albania, which was likely greenlit because the Albanian Prime Minister wants to stay buddies with Donald Trump. We were on a friend's boat and we stopped for a swim. Effectively, that's how we found it.
- [04:47]
Ben Rhodes
We swam to the islands, we went
- [04:49]
Alex Wagner
on a hike barefoot all the way up to the top, and we were just captivated. And it stayed with us ever since. It's all pretty bad. But the raid on the federal government, grabbing taxpayer money and stuffing it into the pockets of the Trump family. Well, that is the thing we are gonna focus on this week. We now have very strong evidence that the White House, and specifically the Trump family, has been using the Department of Defense as its own piggy bank. That would be the agency with the highest discretion, discretionary spending in the entire federal budget. A ProPublica investigation this month found that one of the President's top aides, Peter Navarro, helped secure a $620 million Pentagon loan to Vulcan Elements, a startup that Donald Trump Jr. Is heavily invested in. If you don't remember who Peter Navarro is, the short answer is that Don Jr. Calls him his bro.
- [05:43]
Ben Rhodes
Hey, I saw you down there, man. You got pretty jacked in prison, though.
- [05:46]
Robert Faturechi
I mean, you had the time. I mean, I was like, damn, I
- [05:49]
Alex Wagner
had to come visit my bo. We see the destruction of the East Wing. We hear the announcements about the multi billion dollar slush fund. But the corruption that is happening inside the guts of the federal government will astound you. For all the craven maneuvering that takes place in broad daylight, you better believe that the Trump's real criming is going down behind closed doors. I'm Alex Wagner, and this week on Runaway country, the Trump administration is reaching new lows on the corruption Index. And we're going to get into talking to the best of the best. My pal from Pod Save the World, and author of the new book, all we the Battle for American A History of the United States. In 15 speeches, the great Ben Rhodes. Ben is going to judge how Trump rot compares to corruption around the world and also what can be done to stop it. But first, the inside story on Vulcan Elements. The company now getting a $620 million loan from the Pentagon and making Donald Trump Jr. Very rich in the process. I'm talking to Robert Fattureci, the Pulitzer Prize winning ProPublica reporter who broke that story. Here's our conversation. Robert, I'm a huge fan of everything you guys are doing over there at ProPublica, and this story that you're bylined on hit me like a ton of bricks. Before we get into the specifics of what's going on at the Pentagon, let's just talk about the key players. First of all, Peter Navarro, um, he is a Trump ally, remains one, is a White House advisor. He was incarcerated for not responding to a subpoena from the January Six committee. I know from your reporting that he and Don Jr have been quite close. Can you tell me a little bit more about their relationship?
- [07:36]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah.
- [07:36]
Robert Faturechi
So Don Jr. Visited him in prison when he was doing time for failing to comply with that subpoena. You mentioned Navarro recently published a book, and Don Jr. Was one of the small group of people he dedicated that book to. They have a very close rapport. In fact, around the time that this deal was made. Navarro was a guest on Don Jr's streaming show triggered, and Don Jr encouraged his nearly 2 million followers to buy the book. They've developed a close relationship over the years, I think.
- [08:20]
Alex Wagner
Was it in your story? I think it was your story. He's like a fan of like Don Jr's comment to Don, Pete Navarro's jailhouse workout routine. Is that right?
- [08:28]
Robert Faturechi
Yeah. He described his physique as being jacked. And if I'm remembering correctly, you know, I think he made a joke about wanting to maybe do some time himself so he could develop as jacked of a physique.
- [08:44]
Alex Wagner
That's an interesting incentive structure. We'll leave that for some other people to unpack. Okay, then there's Vulcan Elements, which I had was not aware of. But it's a little known and little endowed, if you will, company that specializes in manufacturing rare earth magnets. What is the story behind Vulcan Elements and how did Don Jr come to be an investor in the company?
- [09:06]
Robert Faturechi
So it's a relatively new startup based out of North Carolina. At the time of this deal, it had fewer than 50 employees. It was started by a student at Harvard Business School while he was a student there. And last year, Donald Trump Jr. S venture capital firm, 1789 Capital, was one of the investors that participated in a round of investments for that company. And then about three months after that was announced, the Department of Defense made this massive $620 million loan to the same company.
- [09:51]
Alex Wagner
Okay, can you give us the kind of TikTok on that? Like, how does that loan go down? And for people who haven't read the story, how does Pete Navarro get involved in all this?
- [10:01]
Robert Faturechi
Based on records we reviewed and sources, the way this happened is Peter Navarro originally pushed this deal to the Department of Defense. And of the dozens upon dozens of companies they were considering at the time, this was the only one that a top aide to the president originally pushed. And so based on our reporting, what we discovered is that word comes down from Navarro, and then there is an understanding among Pentagon staff that this is a White House priority and this deal needs to get done. So usually these companies are vetted for months and months. This gets turned around in a matter of weeks. People are, you know, going as fast as they can, working on little sleep, that it's all hands on deck and that they're moving as fast as possible, specifically because it's a White House priority.
- [11:00]
Alex Wagner
I mean, so they're, they're, as you say, they're working on little sleep. They're really expediting this to get $620 million to Vulcan, which is coincidentally a business that Don Jr has invested in. You know, first of all, you talk to other businesses that are vying for some of this money. What was the attitude among, you know, other companies as they see what really looks like self dealing with on the outside?
- [11:26]
Robert Faturechi
Yeah. So a lot of businesses are scrambling to try to figure out how they can also get money from this unit within the Defense Department. It's called the Office of Strategic Capital. They're hiring lobbyists, they're reaching out to contacts who know people, who know people. I talked to one mining CEO who is also hopeful that he would get some money. They hired a lobbyist who knew someone, who knew someone. But they were able to get in front of this division of the Pentagon. And one of the things he said to me was, and this is before he, you know, I learned that he had been rejected is he said, you know, I hope that you don't have to be chums with Don Jr. To get this kind of money. So of course, I mean the flip side of this is that the Pentagon has said that they're doing this purely based on merit, that the President's son being involved in this way played no role in their decision making process.
- [12:28]
Alex Wagner
And yet it's Peter Navarro, the President's son's very good friend, who is calling to expedite it and getting them basically to hustle to get this money to Vulcan. Where Don Jr. S investment, I believe has increased tenfold. Is that right? The valuation of the company has gone up 10 times.
- [12:44]
Robert Faturechi
The estimates of the valuation from around the time that Don jr's company invested to soon after the government deal was announced. And that's a matter of months. We're talking about a tenfold increase. So an incredible return.
- [12:59]
Alex Wagner
An incredible return. A rocket ship. What a great bet. Don Jr. Who knew? I knew. I mean to your, to the person you spoke to, from you know, sort of a competitor to Vulcan. I sure hope you don't have to be chums with Don Jr. To get money from the federal government. If ProPublica has another article this week about another company that Don Jr. Is an investor in. America First Refining, which is trying to build an oil refinery in Texas. Something that hasn't been done in I think half a century. And the Ambanis, the richest family in Asia, recently made a nine figure investment in that refining company despite the fact that it has really questionable financials and really questionable future prop. Future prospects. I mean it. First of all, did that look unusual to you, as someone who's looking at the corruption and the self enrichment that appears to be happening inside the federal government, thanks to Don Jr.
- [13:56]
Robert Faturechi
I mean, absolutely. And it's a pattern that we've seen. We have seen multiple instances now of the Trump administration taking actions that benefit companies that the Trump family holds stakes in or positions in, whether it be contracts or deregulation, or in this case, a massive loan. There have been many instances at this point of this kind of thing happening.
- [14:23]
Alex Wagner
I think the thing that is alarming is the public is aware of, I'm going to call it grift, like the Ballroom and the contracts going out to companies that work at Bedminster, federal contracts being lucrative for the people within Trump's orbit. But the Department of Defense has vast resources, and the oversight seems really compromised at best. From a reportorial standpoint, how much sunlight is it possible to get on the federal contracting process? Like, how much can you get through public records? How much can you actually get eyes on what's happening?
- [15:06]
Robert Faturechi
I have found that the most effective way to get that kind of sunlight and get those kinds of answers is through people who are involved in these deals and who may have concerns about them. That takes a lot of work and a lot of resources to get in touch with these people, to make them feel comfortable about sharing the information they have. I mean, there has been a lot of reporting about how previous means of accountability and transparency have been weakened, whether we're talking about inspectors general at these agencies or Congress, which has, you know, some lawmakers have tried, but overall, Congress is not doing aggressive oversight just because, you know, the party that controls the White House is also controlling Congress at this point. So it takes a lot of hard work by reporters, and we're still trying to do that. We are doing that actively, not just at ProPublica, but other outlets.
- [16:16]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, of course. I just think you guys have been really tenacious in exposing what's happening behind the scenes in a way that I think most people don't. Even, even as jaded as we are about Trump corruption, the scale of it in terms of the way in which the federal government is basically being used as a piggy bank for the Trump family, I think that that is staggering. On a weekly basis. When these ProPublica pieces come out, do you get this sense when you talk to people inside these government agencies who are at least privy to these deals, if not part of them, do they sense that there's something wrong? And is there concern that at some point there might be a oversight, if not a Real investigation. Should the party in Congress change hands?
- [17:02]
Robert Faturechi
If your question is, you know, the motivation of people who talk to us, that really varies by story. Right. Sometimes people want accountability. Sometimes people have been in the agency for years and years and they feel like this is a break from the way things worked under, under other administrations, Republican or Democratic, and that gives them concerns. Sometimes they're worried about their own involvement in something that they think is untoward. And sometimes they have motivations that might not be as noble. But all that matters for us is that their information is accurate, which we go to great lengths to verify. So it really, it spans the gamut.
- [17:47]
Alex Wagner
Are you surprised at some of the scale of this stuff? I mean, just as someone who's in the middle of it. Yeah.
- [17:51]
Robert Faturechi
I mean, you know, so a good thing to compare it to the main self enrichment concern during the first Trump administration was, you know, like the, the real estate holdings, like our foreign governments and politically oriented groups, spending at these hotels and other establishments. And is that allowing them to curry favor with the Trump administration? I forget what the dollar figure was on foreign government spending at the hotels, but I think it was a few million. So really, when we're talking about total dollar amounts between the first Trump term and the second Trump term, the second Trump term eclipses what we saw in the first Trump term. So, yes, it is a vast amount of money.
- [18:37]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. And we still don't really know what the sum total is. I mean, I think in December, Forbes estimated that Donald Trump Jr's net worth had gone from roughly 50 million to 300 million since the election. But that's only on. Those numbers are based on investments that have been publicly disclosed. So one would assume it's actually considerably larger than that. Right.
- [18:59]
Robert Faturechi
It's hard to know. A lot of this is, is estimates. And yes, when you're talking about the Trump sons, for example, they're not filing federal disclosure forms about their financial information. So that's a bit more of a black box.
- [19:15]
Alex Wagner
I mean, how's it going for you? I know that someone, I understand from our producers that someone's been impersonating you and sending foreign officials promises of various natures. Can you elaborate on that? What's going on there?
- [19:28]
Robert Faturechi
I hope that they've stopped, but yeah, this was something that happened earlier this year. I was reached out to by a Canadian defense official who asked me if I had been trying to work him for information. I think it was via WhatsApp. And I had not been. I didn't really think much of it. And then a few Weeks later, I heard from a Latvian businessman who is involved in drone companies in Ukraine who had a similar experience. Again, someone who was posing as me. We never figured out exactly who it was, but it was someone who seemed to have an interest in foreign militaries and possibly specifically in Ukraine. So, you know, unusual experience, particularly when I am reaching out to all sorts of government officials, you know, via signal and WhatsApp and other means, trying to gain their trust. It creates a little bit of difficulty for that process when someone is out there also impersonating me. But we've published some best practices for potential sources on how to verify that we are who we say we are.
- [20:37]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. Do you think it was an attempt to discredit you?
- [20:40]
Robert Faturechi
I think it was probably an attempt to trick foreign officials into giving them information. That's my guess, but your guess is as good as mine.
- [20:50]
Alex Wagner
No good deed goes unpunished. Well, Robert, you've been doing, like I said, some really great and essential reporting on a part of the Trump administration that doesn't nearly get enough attention. So thank you for joining the podcast. Thanks for walking us through this latest piece. Please come back. I know that there's a constant stream of reporting on the corruption inside the White House and outside of it, and we're eager to hear as much as you can give us whenever you can.
- [21:17]
Robert Faturechi
Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.
- [21:19]
Alex Wagner
After the break, we'll put this all into context with Pod Save the World's Ben Rhodes. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Summer is a lot of people's favorite season. And by a lot of people, I mean this person. Travel picks up, kids are outta school, the weather's gorgeous. But for others, juggling it all can be tough. That's also this person. It can lead to overwhelm, and some folks worry they're wasting valuable days of sunshine. Everyone should build in time for themselves. And one of the best ways you can build in time for yourself is through therapy. Therapy can help people better understand their needs, feel more confident in setting boundaries, and create a version of summer that actually feels good for you. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Really, you don't find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com RunawayCountry that's better. H E L P.com RunawayCountry Runaway country is brought to you by LifePro Fitness. I feel good about working out, but often I feel very, very sore. And Runaway country listeners know I had a hip replacement, so that has made my post workout recovery even trickier. I feel stiff. I need a little bit more downtime between workouts and I'm not playing pickleball as much as I used to. That is why you and anybody like me might need the Life Pro Waver vibration plate. I don't know. I keep seeing people use these vibration plates online and I honestly thought they looked kind of ridiculous at first. Like there's no way that just standing on something actually helps you recover that much. But now as I read more about it, I totally get it. Your whole body is vibrating and it constantly forces your muscles to activate and contract without even thinking about it. That movement helps support blood flow recovery, muscle activation, lymphatic drainage, soreness and stiffness. You spend an hour or, I don't know, 40 minutes, maybe 37, beating your body up in the gym. But most people totally ignore what happens after that. Recovery is what actually determines whether you're ready to go again tomorrow. And vibration therapy is consistently helps reduce soreness. For a limited time, our listeners can get $20 off the waver vibration plate plus free shipping with code ALEX@lifeprofitness.com that is lifeprofitness.com and use code A L E X for $20 off. After you purchase, they will ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. Okay? I'm thrilled to bring back to the show. I feel like a late night comic. Bring back to the show the great and inimitable Ben Rhodes. Ben, you are now a member of the two or three timers club here on this program. I think, I think you've been on the show multiple times and we're just so happy to have you back.
- [24:19]
Ben Rhodes
Can I be like a correspondent or like a regular or is there some status I can get you?
- [24:23]
Alex Wagner
There's no payroll, but there is a T shirt that you'll get. Yeah, sure, sure. We'll give you whatever you want. Senior, Senior political analyst. We hand it out. We hand out the titles like candy.
- [24:33]
Ben Rhodes
I'm a runaway country contributor.
- [24:35]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, perfect. It's official. Cue the bells and confetti. Okay, Ben, I know you are a busy man. You have a New York Times bestselling book that we just previewed in your intro and it's coming out at just the right time. Our country is on the verge of celebrating its 250th anniversary, its birthday. Your book is about American history and also American identity and who gets to sort of tell the American story. And what is it. We started this episode and we're focusing a lot on the breathtaking corruption that is part of our federal government shepherded by our corrupt president, Donald Trump. How, as a country, are we doing today, Ben, in your estimation?
- [25:19]
Ben Rhodes
Well, it's not great, Alex. And that would be. There are many things we could say about that. I think one thing that I would say is it's important when we look at Trump, and I did this, obviously, in writing a book that covered 250 years in determining kind of what is not singular about Trump. Like, he emerges out of certain currents in history of xenophobia and isolationism and racism. But what is distinct, and one of the things that is distinct is the scale of corruption. That Donald Trump is not just someone who wanted to take office in order to impose an agenda. He's someone who as, as a feature, not a bug, clearly wants to enrich himself and his family and a set of people around him. And we've seen him use everything from American foreign policy to, you know, bizarre vanity architectural projects to the whole approach to industries like crypto he is using. This is not just a guy that's like taking a bribe. This is someone who is monetizing the power of the presidency. And I think that is at a scale that we've never seen before in our history.
- [26:36]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. And what surprises me is, to your point, it's not like this is endemic to American governance. This is a relatively new thing that's been turbocharged in the Trump years, and yet their desire to even paper over the grift is non existent. The first interview of this podcast is with one of the reporters at ProPublica who broke this eye popping story about the grift that's happening at the Department of Defense, which is quite vast. The Pentagon gave a $620 million loan to a company called Vulcan Elements last year. And that is surprise, Ben. A company that Don Jr. Took a stake in three months before the valuation of that company skyrocketed to 10 times its initial value. And the loan was effectively expedited by White House advisor and Trump bro Peter Navarro.
- [27:28]
Ben Rhodes
And convicted felon.
- [27:30]
Alex Wagner
Yes, convicted felon. Right. Who served jail time. I am stunned. And this is not the only example we have. This is one of the singular examples of the White House intervening on behalf of a Trump family member to Gain that person a lot of cash. But it's certainly not the only example. And we'll talk about a few more coming up. But the fact that they don't think they're gonna get called out for any of this is a distressing signal to me about how much corruption they think they can get away with. Do you think that, I mean, are you surprised by it?
- [28:01]
Ben Rhodes
I'm not, unfortunately, that surprised. I think in the first term there was a little bit of a tentative approach to these types of things. Right. And so the corruption was more adjacent. It was like Saudis paying top dollar for rooms at Trump hotels.
- [28:18]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, it was emolument stuff.
- [28:20]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, yeah. Now I think I'm glad you brought the defense budget. Obviously I have a national security background. I don't think we have our minds around the scale of this yet. They've proposed a $1.5 trillion budget, so that's the pool that they can swim in for their corruption. And I think you have the most acute forms are things like this where all of a sudden Don Jr is a drone investor and oh, at the same time that we're launching a war in Iran that has drones as a feature. We're going to have this contract that Peter Navarro puts his thumb on the scale on through his contacts for Don Jr. But let's take a step back and look at who's benefiting from these new defense technologies. Because one thing that people don't understand is that you have the traditional arms dealers, the Raytheons and Boeings, the people make planes and tanks. But now there's an entirely new industry that is Silicon Valley based in which people are developing defense technology and defense artificial intelligence. And so you don't just have like Don Jr. You've got how much money is Elon Musk getting from the defense budget for SpaceX? Or how many Peter Thiel, another kind of right wing oligarch, how many Peter Thiel invested companies are at the trough, you know, of this defense budget? What kind of businesses might the Trump kids be doing with those people that, that, that, that the corruption explodes exponentially. When you consider the fact that the very tech oligarchs that are like paying for the ballroom or the America 250 celebrations or who paid for the inauguration are then getting defense contracts. And then those people might be in business with people that are either in the Trump family or adjacent to it. I think if Democrats can win back the Congress, one of the lines of effort is going to have to be looking underneath the hood of all this contracting in the defense budget because frankly, if a Democrat, knock on wood, is able to win the presidency, we're going to have to pull, I mean, we're going to have to not mess around here. We're going to have to cancel contracts. We have to, like, definitively show Americans that we're not only holding people accountable for corruption and finding if there were actually laws violated, but they were not going to allow the national security of this country to be subcontracted, monetized, to benefit like a clique of Trump oligarchs.
- [30:43]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. The company that you're talking about when we talk about drone technology is Powerus, which is, again, a Don Jr. Affiliated company. Vulcan Enterprises or Vulcan Elements is a rare earth mineral company. And then there's another company that's trying to build a refinery in Texas that Don Jr. Is a part of that just got a nine figure investment from the Ambanis. It's technologies across the board, Ben. And the common thread is a Trump child is on the board. And these companies either are explicitly told that being affiliated with a Trump will fast track approval or fast track access to the White House, or they're taking it upon themselves. And this is what I really worry about, to invite Trump children to be part of their projects because they know it will incentivize the federal government to do business with them, either that company or other companies in their portfolio. And that's the thing that I think is completely worrisome, is that it's now become part of America's culture to have a Trump on board. In order to do business in America, you need to get a Trump kid in, in, in, in your business portfolio. That is toxic.
- [31:45]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. And we've seen this. Okay, so you see it in the United States around these types of examples. You also see foreign governments who understand that, well, maybe the way to keep Trump off my back with tariffs, or maybe the way to get access to American technology is just to make a deal with Trump kids. And so, for instance, right now, some Americans may be wondering why Pakistan is hosting and mediating talks between the United States and Iran. It's not exactly a normal diplomatic troubleshooter there. Well, Pakistan, early in the Trump administration, entered into a partnership with the Trump family crypto business. And it's not just Trump, it's Trump, Eric Trump. And Steve Wytkopf's kid as well, is involved in that. In the same way that we saw the United Arab emirates make a $2 billion investment in Trump's crypto business. And coincidentally, shortly thereafter, a bunch of export Control restrictions on their capacity to access data centers and high end artificial intelligence technologies, well, those were lifted. And so the UAE got that technology. This is how other countries operate. We've seen this out of Hungary or Turkey or Malaysia or certainly Russia. What's different here is the scale, because of the scale of America's power. And so this is not just billions. I mean, this is going to enter into the tens of billions of dollars right quick. That is basically using the leverage of American power or the American economy to self enrich.
- [33:14]
Alex Wagner
It's literally using the federal government. Well, it's using the federal government and those as a private piggy bank for the Trump kids and. Or basically squeezing other governments to enrich the Trump kids or else. What I think distresses me is, and I feel like it's a Beautiful Mind sort of scenario. It's like once you see the web of corruption and self enrichment, there's like no part of our foreign policy and our defense spending that seems untouched by it, which is incredibly alarming. And yet there's no congressional oversight of this at all. In part because Democrats don't have power and Republicans have decided they are laying in bed with Trump. Even if they don't get the money that he is rolling around in, they get the power. And so it's Left to like ProPublica and the new York Times. I mean, in terms of revealing the corruption, I guess this is a question of having to wait till 2027 or 2029 when someone with some kind of ethics is back in government. Do you worry that's too late?
- [34:16]
Ben Rhodes
I mean, it's, it's. First of all, what's one of the things that's been interesting about the Trump era and it's particularly acute now, right. Is you realize, I'm sure that, you know, frankly, if the right lawyers looked very carefully at some of these deals, they would find legal violations. But a lot of the reasons stuff like this doesn't happen is that there's a presumption, you know, that if Malia Obama started a drone company and got a billion dollar contract, that the outcry from Congress and the press and the public would be so extreme that that just kind of wouldn't happen. That there was a normal.
- [34:48]
Alex Wagner
Oh my God, even saying it sounds absurd, like Malia Obama having a drone company. It sounds fucking insane. Yes, Sasha, Obama is really into refineries.
- [34:56]
Ben Rhodes
Well, yeah, and we had, you know, we had a multi year scandal about Hunter Biden being on the board of a Ukrainian army and just being on a retainer. That was like a tiny fraction, like a rounding. And I think that was wrong, by the way, but that was like a tiny fraction, a rounding error of like what Eric Trump is making on like a daily basis or Don Jr. Right. And so the utter failure of Congress and frankly the media, with some exceptions like ProPublica and occasionally the times to, you know, because Trump doesn't feel shame and Trump can't kind of be held accountable to the normal laws of political gravity because we've seen, particularly when it's Democrats, huge scandals around Jimmy Carter's brother or Bill Clinton's brother or Hunter Biden, like Malia, you know, God bless her, did not have any scandals. But like Trump just ignores the rules and the Republicans ignore the rules and the media kind of just adjust to this reality. And so there's not accountability. I think going forward, again, part of this is going to be using the two years, if you have a majority in one house of Congress to start to create the record so that the next president can come in and hold people accountable and kind of again, uproot some of this contracting. That is just a piggy bank. But secondly, we need to pass laws. I mean, I think there should be a law that no member of the President's family should have any capacity to make any money off of federal government contracts. You know, I mean, things like that. And people need to be assured that we've learned from this and are taking steps to make sure that it never happens again.
- [36:32]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, the sort of reliance on norms is not something we can ever do as a society and as a body politic ever again. It's gotta be lawmaking season when Democrats take control of Congress again. More from Ben Rhodes after the break. Runaway country is brought to you by Helix. My producer, Emma has a Helix mattress and she can't stop talking about it. She got the midnight luxe and she says it is the perfect level of firmness to get her to stop imagining what Vanilla ice's performance at Freedom250 will possibly be like. And to start sleeping. No staying up with anxiety. Helix has over 20 mattress models. You can find the perfect model so you too can finally buck Trump derangement syndrome and get some much rest. I mean, at least for a time. Plus, with summer weather here at last, Helix has cooling upgrades so you can get the best rest even on hot nights. There's free shipping and seamless delivery, a 120 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. There's the happy with Helix guarantee, seamless returns and exchanges. And it's Award winning, it's the most awarded mattress brand tested and reviewed by experts at Forbes and wired. Go to helixsleep.com Alex for 20% off sitewide. That's helixsleep.com Alex 20% off site wide. Helixsleep.com Alex Runaway country is brought to you by Airstore. Oh, man. Irestore Elite It's a crazy hair helmet. Amazing. It was comfortable to use. I maybe look a little bit like an alien. I got an added bonus of scaring my children who came in while I was watching tv. It is a whole new scalp, a whole new me. It's not just women who want things like the Irestore Elite to get the thickest, glossiest, loveliest, youngest hair of their lifetimes. It's also dudes. They're just as vain as us. And you know what? Father's Day is right around the corner. It's the perfect time to give the kind of gift dad will actually use. Something that helps him feel confident and refreshed and ready for whatever is next. IRA Store is celebrating Father's Day with limited time savings on their red light therapy devices. From June 8 through June 21, you can save 33% on Gift Ready favorites like the Irestore Elite helmet, Womp Womp, and Irestore's new sculpt belt as part of the dad edit. Plus your order comes with a gift with purchase valued at up to 190 bucks. Just head to irestore.com and use code A L E X to take advantage of the sale. That's a L E X. Restore.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Give dad a gift that helps him feel confident, refreshed, and ready to take on his day. I gotta ask on the sort of, like, personal level and to get to some of the things that you've written about in the past and now with your new book. First of all, I want to talk about the UFC cage match that our friend and colleague Jon Favreau was mistakenly invited to. He's not going.
- [39:28]
Ben Rhodes
I know. I was really hoping he'd be.
- [39:29]
Alex Wagner
I'm assuming you didn't. You didn't get any invites. I started.
- [39:32]
Ben Rhodes
Didn't make the list, man. Didn't make the list. Alex.
- [39:34]
Alex Wagner
Sadly, sadly, there's a lawsuit that's been filed against the government over the cage, which has been erected on the South Lawn to celebrate America's birthday. I mean, Trump's birthday. The Public Integrity Project has filed a lawsuit against the federal government on behalf of two plaintiffs named Susan Douglas, who's an activist and Paul Romano, who is a Vietnam War veteran. And the lawsuit says that the event is private and for profit. It is not a national celebration. It also says the claw, which is the thing that the fighters are gonna fight in, has been causing plaintiffs aesthetic and procedural harms. And that the People's House and the Lincoln Memorial, where there are going to be weigh ins. Yes, Ben, weigh ins for UFC fighters.
- [40:20]
Ben Rhodes
Oh, I didn't know that in the
- [40:21]
Alex Wagner
Lincoln Memorial that they are being used improperly and without congressional approval, first of all, and I only had a few years going to the White House briefing room. How does it make you feel as someone who spent a lot of time in that building to see the East Wing demolished in the corner and a giant six flag style amusement park being erected on the South Lawn that Trump this week suggested may stay there indefinitely because I guess he just likes the look of a cage on the South Lawn of the White House. How does it make you feel to see these images?
- [40:56]
Ben Rhodes
I have a lot of feelings. I remember when I first went to work in the White House and I had an office in the West Wing and I had a blue. What was a blue badge, which meant you could kind of walk anywhere in the White House. And it took me weeks to feel comfortable just walking in certain places, like walking into the residence, walking into the East Wing, walking by the Rose Garden. And the reason why is because there's so many ghosts there. You know, Abraham Lincoln lived in that house. You know, FDR was in that house during the Depression and World War II. You know, Martin Luther King was welcomed into the East Wing of the White House by Jackie Kennedy when she gave him a tour of how she'd renovated it, like, these are the people that had walked those grounds. And the idea that you're going to put up tacky, gold lined Oval Office signs as if we need to identify the Oval Office, like it's the 19th hole bar at a cheesy country club. Right? Or the idea that we're going to deface that property with some Mar A Lago ballroom or some UFC steel cage is so offensive to the continuum of our history and to the care and the fact that that house. I was very well aware, Alex, that I was a temporary employee. I maxed out. I did all eight years. That's the max you can do, you know, And I was aware of that every day that I was there. I think the other thing, though, is that the crassness and crudeness with which they're, quote, unquote, celebrating Trump's birthday or America's birthday. I mean, a cage match, it's kind of the worst form of a certain kind of virulent American nationalism. It's the nationalism of F16s flying over football games on steroids. Right. And there's a whiff of corruption, too, because Dana White, the guy who runs ufc, is like a big Trump supporter and been a Trump donor. And so he's going to get something out of the deal. Everybody gets something except the American people. And again, my book, I write about Lincoln's second inaugural, which is carved onto the walls of that memorial, a meditation on the meaning of the Civil War and the moral necessity of abolition and
- [43:16]
Alex Wagner
words and calling for sacrifice and self sacrifice in many case, if.
- [43:20]
Ben Rhodes
If every drop of blood drawn by the lash must be paid for by a drop of blood drawn by the sword, the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous. In other words, if all these people had to die to atone for slavery, that's just. And that gives us an opportunity to fulfill what this country's about. That's the backdrop to a fucking weigh in for some UFC fighters to throw a big party for Trump and probably like, raise money and have donors there and have Dana White pat his pockets. It's just the expropriation of our national symbols and national story that is so offensive. And I hope people don't accept that. That's not their memorial. It's not their White House, it's ours. And frankly, they're temporary, too. And they try to create this sense of permanence, but those symbols and those places will be there long after they're gone.
- [44:12]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, I mean, and God knows what Lincoln would be thinking about. UFC way ends in the Lincoln Memorial, which was constructed, of course, after he died, but still, why do fascists like spectacle so much? It all feels very like second millennium Mussolini. Is it just because of the monstrous egos? Is it because they're overcompensating for some shortcoming that they have, some deep seated shortcoming that only they really know the truth about and spend their lives destroying those of others in compensation for that? I mean, do you have a theory of the case? Why the tasteless, over the top glitz that is a hallmark of fascists around the world is now sort of calling card of the Trump administration.
- [44:51]
Ben Rhodes
So I've had the misfortune of having to think about and write a lot about fascists over the last decade.
- [44:59]
Alex Wagner
Yes. In your excellent second book, also a New York Times bestseller after the fall,
- [45:03]
Ben Rhodes
I think you put your finger on one of Kind of two or three things I'd identified. One is all these people are mentioning, by and large, Putin, Trump, Mussolini, go down the roster, and there is clearly some deep seated toxic insecurity that is being addressed through the construction of monuments to oneself. There's some hole in you that you're trying to fill with that. And that also leads you to start wars too, which Trump has also followed suit in. I also think that the fascists almost never try to solve the actual problems that their constituents, including their supporters, supported them to do. Right, Like Trump ran promising to lower prices and bring back jobs and reverse de industrialization and end forever wars. Well, he's not doing any of those things. So what you give people is spectacle. You may be getting poorer, but you get to know that not only can you watch the UFC fight on the South Lawn, but you know that Ben Rhodes and Alex Wagner are upset about that and we're just sticking it to them, you know, and in the same way that if you're in Russia, you know, you may not be able to eat what you want, but like, you get to watch a big military parade and feel a part of some sense of greatness that is tied to the leader. And if the leader is exalted, somehow, you too are exalted in that process. And then I think we shouldn't also shy away from the fact that there is a kind of inherent violence to some of this symbolism, like a UFC fight is a violent thing. And frankly, an arch, which Trump also wants to build, has usually been a commemorative monument to war victories. Right. There's a kind of a violence that permeates the society in these kind of fascistic moments that leaves behind, unfortunately, these constructed landmarks as well as all the destruction, rot.
- [47:10]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, and so you mentioned the arch. Just it's a 250 foot tall arch that is gonna be erected theoretically on a memorial circle, will be twice the height of the Lincoln Memorial. It's also facing a lawsuit from Vietnam War veterans. Reporting tells us that the money to pay for it is being funded by taxpayers, in part by the money we spend on national park passes. It gets at the question, though, Ben, and you address this in your book of the way in which history is constantly being written and rewritten, and so much about history is defined by narrative in a lot of ways. And as clownish and as corrupt and as degraded as this president is, do you ever worry that in the sort of muddy lens of history, and certainly what will be a concerted effort on the part of everybody in Trump's party, to whitewash the worst parts of his legacy. Do you worry that these monuments could actually, in some perverted way, give Trump the sort of great man position that he's so desperate to have a hundred years hence?
- [48:15]
Ben Rhodes
I do, because they are going to be assuming that they get built physical spaces. I think, though, we have to think about the contrast, because you talk about narrative, and my book is about words and the power of words to define American identity and direct American history. But actually, let's talk about spaces for a moment. A lot of care was put into the area around the White House. So the Vietnam Memorial, deliberately sunken, if you've been there, you walk down, it's under ground level because it's a monument of some shame and a monument of almost apology to the names carved in the wall. The Arlington Cemetery, that is going to be totally disrupted by this arch. Right. Because the arch is going to be across from Arlington National Cemetery, where so many American service members are buried, that was deliberately built on a plot of land right by where Robert E. Lee lived. The unsubtle message was, you all created this Confederacy. You started this war. And so we're going to put this someplace that kind of enters into the psychic reality of America, that the reason that there are all these crosses and other burial sites is because of the Civil War started The Lincoln Memorial people. And this does connect to my book. Like, the people that designed that memorial had the wisdom to carve the words of the Gettysburg Address and the Second Inaugural onto the wall so that not only would people come and see a statue of Lincoln, but more powerfully, that they could read his words and read what he said about America and American identity, all of. And slavery. And slavery. All this was the root of the Civil War. Yeah. America sins.
- [50:09]
Alex Wagner
It's being litigated once again.
- [50:11]
Ben Rhodes
It's right there. That's Abraham Lincoln giving the most abolitionist speech ever delivered by an American president. And so if you introduce into that milieu an arch, a ballroom, obviously we already have a cage fight. I worry that you are committing a kind of offense that will endure against the care with which we've sought to kind of curate a better version of who we could be and what we choose to honor from the past. And I think the choices are interesting. Like, do you take these things down? Well, that in some way would be disruptive. Can you convert them into different purposes? Is there a different use of the ballroom that becomes some kind of monument to democracy itself, you know, so that the. You're, you know, the space spaces are turned. And I know that might be difficult because it's on White House grounds, but I think people need to give some thought into not only whether to keep these places, but whether to transform their purposes so that they cannot be seen as exalting Trump or enshrining him as a great man along. You know, the presidents memorialized in the Mall are like Jefferson and Lincoln and Washington. Like, he should not be in that company. And so at a minimum, those places should be for entirely different purposes.
- [51:31]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, I think. And soon, like, don't let it marinate. Don't wait till 2080. The earth may have exploded by then anyway, given the trajectory we're on. But don't wait. Make haste on that. Don't let him even. Don't let a decade go by where a narrative begins to emerge that Trump was actually not so bad. And then Trump was good and maybe even great. More of my conversation with Ben in just a moment. But first, Pride Month is here and it's time to dress like it. This season, the Crooked Store is dropping gayer than ever in two brand new designs and bringing back an old favorite, the Gay for Democracy T shirt. Plus, classics like Dreamboat Willie return in a new colorway alongside the ever reliable Join or Die tee. Whether you're celebrating with your community, showing up to protest, or guilting your straight friends into buying you crooked merch in the name of gay rights, there is something here to match your Pride Month style. And let's be honest, pride doesn't end. You will be wearing these long after June. Head to crooked.comstore to shop. Today's show is sponsored by Strawberry Me. You know that feeling when your career looks fine on paper but something still feels off? Don't I? Maybe you're stuck. Maybe you're burned out. Maybe you're ready for a bigger move. Or maybe you just want clarity on what is next. That is where today's sponsor, Strawberry Me, comes in. Strawberry Me matches you with a real career coach, carefully selected based on your goals, personality and professional background. These are not random Internet gurus. They are coaches on the platform. And they average 16 years of experience across 900 companies and 37 industries. And most have been leaders, founders or executives themselves. Here's what is good about all this. It's not just one conversation. You meet one on one over video. You build a personalized plan together and you stay connected between sessions through messages, messaging. When real life challenges crop up, most people hit a meaningful milestone with four to six sessions. Whether that's landing a new role or getting unstuck, building confidence or finally taking action on something you've been putting off for years. Visit Strawberry Me and start with a coaching trial today. Tell them it was the Runaway country with Alex Wagner podcast that sent you and get 50% off your first session. Woo.
- [53:47]
Ben Rhodes
Quick question. Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted
- [53:52]
Alex Wagner
if you said yes to both? Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan.
- [53:55]
Ben Rhodes
And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco and we're the
- [53:58]
Alex Wagner
hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture and not losing their minds in the process. We break down the news, call out the nonsense, and spotlight the women actually fighting back on Capitol Hill, in classrooms and everywhere. There's the stakes are high. It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero hand holding. Listen to Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube
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Robert Faturechi
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- [54:59]
Alex Wagner
When we talk about like acts of corruption and hallmarks of sort of our descent into authoritarianism and fascist full blown fascism, I do have to talk to you about Trump's attendance at the Knicks game on Monday. I know you're a Knicks game.
- [55:13]
Ben Rhodes
The gravest defense, Alex. The gravest defense.
- [55:15]
Alex Wagner
Maybe the gravest for this long lifelong New Yorker. I did see Knicks fans burning sage out in front of Madison Square Garden. So hopefully we are recording this the night of game four. And hopefully the sort of stench of Trump will be gone by then. First of all, I'm sorry that he was there. I'm sure you believe, as most Snicks fans do, that his presence was the reason they lost. But it is worth talking about the ways in which the obfuscation and the opacity that attends Trump and his health is also a hallmark of corruption. Right? It's very Kremlin. It reminds me of Castro in the 1960s, the fact that Americans can't get any real, real information about their dear leader and whether or not he's actually cognizant of the decisions he's making, whether or not Our country actually has anyone with their hands on the captain's wheel. To me, seems like a hallmark of autocracy. It's what you see in North Korea. It's what you see in Russia. It's what you see in Cuba. It's what you see in Burma, Myanmar. I wonder how you think of it, because it's clear the man isn't. Well, it's very hard to fall asleep at a sporting event. Setting aside the excitement of game three of the Knicks versus Spurs.
- [56:37]
Ben Rhodes
Oh, it's one of the loudest sporting events in recent memory too, you know, and he's. Yeah. And I do just want to say, like, he just has to insert himself in everything. Like, it's not. We can't even enjoy the Knicks NBA playoff run without Trump inserting himself in the same way that we can't even have an America 250 that isn't all about him. So put that aside. Yeah, I do think it's. It's like Putin, you know, would do these things. I don't know if you remember this, Alex. Like, he would have these hockey games where he'd play hockey and they'd let him score, like, 15 goals and he's playing against, like, great players. But, like, there's this kind of comic performance of like, oh, my gosh, look at how good a hockey player Putin is. And he's.
- [57:22]
Alex Wagner
Is this around the era of the shirtless. Is this the era of the shirtless horseback riding pictures?
- [57:28]
Ben Rhodes
Now, as he's gotten in his 70s, we get less of that. Or Kim Jong Un. Like, we're constantly, you know, North Korean propaganda is exalting his physical fitness, which, if you have two eyes, Kim Jong Un is many things. A model of fitness is not one of them. And I think that there's. There's two sides of this coin. Like, one is the utter lack of transparency about really, you know, this man has a. Nuclear codes. Right. This man is currently running at least one war, actually more than one war. The lack of transparency is dangerous in that regard in that we should know whether this person has health problems or other kind of decline happening that you would inform whether or not he's fit to carry out the duties. But the second piece of it that connects him to those other people like Putin and Kim and others is the capacity to flagrantly ignore reality and put forward an alternate one is the point. Right. I mean, you know, famously, you know, Adam Silver said the cruelty is the point. Well, the, the flagrant disregard for the truth is the point. Like, they know that It's a joke. Like when they put out these statements of, like, he's in exceptional health. And, you know, no man has ever been in better health. And, you know, Dr. Oz is. I don't forget the line. But, you know, I've never seen anyone his age so fit. You know, like. Like, the propagandizing is the. They know it's crazy and bs, but that's the point. They get to create reality. You know, and even if the reality isn't what we see with our eyes, we're just forced to, like, swallow that reality. I will say to, like, step into the minefield. Alex. It would be better if Democrats had not defended the, like, sharp mental acuity of Joe Biden until way too late. We'd have a little bit more leg to stand on on this. But this is still.
- [59:24]
Alex Wagner
Having said that, though, Ben, I mean, the man's falling asleep at Knicks games.
- [59:29]
Ben Rhodes
No, no, it's qualitatively different. It's qualitatively different.
- [59:32]
Alex Wagner
Covered in, like, l' Oreal concealer from his head to his toes. He's gone to Walter Reed multiple times in the last year when he has an entire White House office, a medical office at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
- [59:46]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. So let me say something about that. Informed by experience. I did not go to a doctor for eight years. I was in the White House. You might say, bill, Ben, like, that's terrible view. Well, no, actually, I got whatever I needed at the White House Medical Unit. You know, I could get a check. I could get checked up for something. I could get a prescription. I even had, like, procedures done.
- [60:03]
Alex Wagner
Yes. Alyssa Mastromonico told me that she had a gyno exam at the White House.
- [60:09]
Ben Rhodes
So I never did that.
- [60:10]
Alex Wagner
And everything you wouldn't have.
- [60:12]
Ben Rhodes
I never. I never had stirrups. But I wasn't even the president. And so the only reason you have to go to Walter Reed is if, I don't know, you need a very particular advanced scan that they don't happen to have at the White House, or there's something really wrong, like, people need to understand. To your point, there is a full medical facility there with what you need, you know, for any kind of routine checkup is at the White House. And so there's something happening, and you see that with falling asleep, too. And I'm not going to sit here and diagnose from afar. And we should add, too, by the way, Alex, unlike Joe Biden or any other normal president, I don't think the man is burning the midnight oil reading documents either. So this is not a case of someone working himself to exhaustion. This is a man that watches some cable tv, has some press availabilities, assembles people behind him at a desk, truth social posts. He's not doing four hour meetings in the Situation Room and then reading documents until three in the morning like Barack Obama used to do. And so, yeah, the lack of answers about this is both alarming, but it's also just kind of, again, part of the parade of we control reality and you don't get to even know it's corrupt.
- [61:36]
Alex Wagner
It's corrupt in its own right. He has the constitution of an aging house cat and maybe the mental faculties of one as well. Only, I guess, only Stephen Miller knows. I want to leave on an up note. I think it's an up note, Ben. I was reading Michelle Goldberg's profile of Jon Ossoff, the Senate incumbent Democratic senator who some people are mentioning as a potential 2028 contender. And she and he's been relentless in banging the drum of corruption and talking about the ways in which this administration is failing the American people. But she quotes Stanford political scientist Adam Bonica, who wrote in an essay last year, across decades and continents, corruption has been the fatal weakness of authoritarian regimes. And I kind of wonder if we should hold, I guess hope is the wrong word, but that all of this brazen corruption is actually the death knell and the scheme of self enrichment will be the downfall of the Trump family.
- [62:33]
Ben Rhodes
So here's the hope I have. It's interesting to write a book where you relive 250 years, because if there's one era that felt familiar, the most familiar to our own, it was the Gilded Age in the late 19th century. You had the backlash to Reconstruction and the reinstitutionalization of segregation. You had runaway robber baron capitalism, totally unregulated, totally unbridled. You had a wealth gap that is on orders of our own. Although we're giving them a run for their money. Workers are being treated like garbage. A handful of people are getting fabulously rich. Government itself was becoming very corrupt, both at the national level, where people are selling patronage appointments, but also at the local level when you had these corrupt political machines. That era was followed by the Progressive Era, where not only did they make policy reforms like banning child labor and antitrust laws and the beginnings of a social safety net. They instituted the direct election of senators. They finally passed women's suffrage and the right for women to vote. They created new institutions like the Federal Reserve so that there was an independent body managing the financial system and not just some robber baron capitalist. I think we are ripe. And this is what Ossoff is talking about, to realize that what comes next isn't just like a healthcare plan. It's a fundamental reorienting of how American government works to get rid of corruption. That if you don't eliminate this massive role of money in politics, you won't get health care, you won't get lower prices. That there's not a democracy conversation and a quote, unquote, kitchen table conversation. That the reform of how the American government functions and operates and how it can be influenced by money is connected to any effort to pass a progressive policy agenda. And I have hope, not just because people like Ossoff are telling that story, which is hugely important, but because that's what happened the last time we went through a gilded Age. The last time, literally Gilded Age. Like we have a gold White House now. Right. And so we can learn. We've been here before and we've done things that appeared radical to get out of it. And I think that that's exactly the moment we find ourselves in. And I think that what Ossoff is tapping into is that people, people understand this intuitively and they want to hear people give speeches and tell stories about what is happening. But also the people who can make you believe that actually we can change this, that there is agency and that you can have a future that is different from this oligarchic, corrupt present.
- [65:21]
Alex Wagner
When you are feeling bereft about this moment, it's really helpful to have a piece of literature like yours, Ben, to give us context and remind us of our accomplishments as a society.
- [65:35]
Ben Rhodes
And that, yeah, we've done great things. Yeah, we're not just.
- [65:37]
Alex Wagner
We can do hard things and great things. And that also some of the people that now seem like, you know, establishment figures or figures that are just so well worn in terms of the American story were actually radical thinkers, big picture thinkers, but really out of the box back in the day and really set the stage for many of the gains we've made as a society. But at the time, we're really kind of out there. But it's very perspective bringing and it's. Jon Favreau called it a balm. I refuse to call it that because it feels weird.
- [66:10]
Ben Rhodes
This calls up some image afterwards.
- [66:12]
Alex Wagner
I find it soothing in a way and also essential, much like a balm.
- [66:19]
Ben Rhodes
Well, when there's no hope in the present, we can tap it from the past. We really can. It's right there for us.
- [66:24]
Alex Wagner
Donald Trump wants to write the American story and tell us that we're a country that prizes bloodlust violence and zero sum politics and we're not that. And it's a good reminder of who we actually are and have been. So congratulations on the book, buddy. Congratulations on the book tour. Thank you for helping me unpack the breathtaking corruption of this moment and reminding me that all is not lost. I'm gonna take it as a W for the country. You are the best.
- [66:51]
Ben Rhodes
Well, the country may need sage. Maybe the Knick fans around. Maybe we need to do sage all over the country.
- [66:56]
Alex Wagner
We need a gigantic handful of sage to burn on January 20, 2029. Right? Start harvesting now. Go Nicks. Knicks in five. That's what we're going to leave it at. Sorry to all the Texas fans. God bless Ben. That is our show for this week. Don't forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. And if you are not sick of me yet, please take a look at my substack. How the hell with Alex Wagner. Last but certainly not least, if you have been impacted directly by the Trump administration and its policies, send us an email or a one minute voice note@runawaycountryokked.com and we may be in touch to feature your story. A huge thank you to everyone who has written in already. Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Ilona Minkowski, Emma Ilic, Frank Haley Jones and Anisha Banerjee, with help from Eric Schutt, Kenny Moffat and Charlotte Landis. Production support from Ben Hethcote, Katie Long, Adrian Hill, and Matt De Groat. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. In moments like these, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and even easier to feel powerless. But we are neither. I'm Stacey Abrams and on my podcast, Assembly Required, I take on each executive action, legislative battle and breaking news moment by asking three questions. What's really happening? What can we do about it? And how do we keep going together? This is a space for clarity, strategy and hope rooted in action, not denial. New episodes of Assembly Required. Drop Tuesdays. Tune in wherever you get your podcast and on YouTube.