← Runaway Country with Alex Wagner
Runaway Country with Alex Wagner
A Wipeout and a Showdown (with Chris Hayes)
00:52:43
Tuesday’s elections ushered in big wins for Democrats in the NYC mayoral race, Virginia and New Jersey’s Governors’ races, California’s redistricting measure, and more. Meanwhile, Democrats in Congress are still standing their ground as the government shutdown now becomes the longest in US history. Alex speaks to MSNBC’s Chris Hayes about what Democrats should take away from these two test cases, and how they should inform the party’s politics for the rest of Trump’s Presidency. She also hears from individuals living through the first-hand impacts of rising healthcare premiums and the government’s pause in food stamps.
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- [00:00]
A
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- [02:10]
B
If tonight teaches us anything, it is that convention has held us back. We have bowed at the altar of caution and we have paid a mighty price. We will leave mediocrity in our past.
- [02:28]
A
That was New York city's newly elected 34 year old mayor Zoran Mamdani, its first ever democratic socialist. And if you can hear the excitement, it is for good reason. Democrats see this week's victories as definitive proof that Donald Trump and his party are on the ropes. That the public is rejecting Trump's mismanagement of the country and his weaponization of of its government. That next year's midterms and the presidential election after that could be Democrats moment to take back the reins but how? And with whom? On election night, Abigail Spanberger, a three term centrist congresswoman, was elected Virginia's first female governor. Virginia chose pragmatism over partisanship, but a Democratic socialist with almost zero experience in government was also elected mayor of New York City. Tuesday showed that Democrats could be both combative and viral, like Governor Gavin Newsom of California and his Prop 50 ballot measure, who also won big on Tuesday.
- [03:32]
B
No crowns, no thrones, no kings. That's what this victory represents.
- [03:39]
A
But also that a moderate mom and a former congresswoman, Mikey Sherrill, could get elected governor of New Jersey. We here in New Jersey are bound to fight for a different future for our children. But all that winning on Tuesday night, while undeniably invigorating, means that Democrats also have some real questions to answer about who should be leading the fight and which fights are worth fighting for. And they sure don't have a lot of time to figure it all out, because the Democratic Party and the country's biggest battle is already here. And the stakes are extraordinary. Right now, the American government is closed for business. We we are in the middle of the longest shutdown in American history. On the line is the health of 24 million Americans, but also whether or not 42 million Americans go hungry. Democrats are holding the line on government funding until Republicans come to the table and negotiate a spending bill that reverses Trump's Medicaid cuts and extends tax credits that make health insurance through the Affordable Care act actually affordable. That has not come without consequences. Because of the shutdown, programs like food stamps or SNAP benefits have been delayed or only partially paid out. Trump has the money to cover the costs, but he is refusing to because apparently it gives Republicans leverage in negotiations. Despite being morally reprehensible. One in eight Americans is on food stamps. That is 42 million people, and they are starting to go hungry. So Democrats are being pulled in two directions. Hold firm, weather the consequences, and maybe win in the end, or stand down, stop the pain, and pray for resolution. Buried under all the thrill and the excitement of this election are some real questions about what the Democratic battle plan should be and who should be leading the charge. I'm Alex Wagner, and this is Runaway Country. In today's episode, we are talking to my friend and former colleague Chris Hayes, host of MSNBC's All in with Chris Hayes, about the Democrats present and their future and whether the playbook should change or will change. But first, I want you to hear from two people who are living the consequences of this fight and who remind us that political Showdowns aren't really about what's happening in Washington. The first person is Lindsey Corley, a listener from Georgia who reached out to share her story. In 2012, Lindsay was in a car accident that left her with a chronic nerve condition called crps, Complex Regional Pain Syndrome. Lindsay described CRPS as if someone is pressing a hot curling iron against the back of your head. Fortunately, she's been able to find doctors and medicine that help her. Here's Lindsey.
- [06:29]
C
If I have the right treatments, I can have a normal life. And so, like a lot of people, a couple of years back, I got on the ACA in my state of Georgia, and so far it's been a pretty good plan. But like so many people this year, finding out that the, the stipends are going away has just been devastating for me. It's not the question of like, oh, if I can't get my medications, it'll just hurt a little more. It's like, no, if I don't get my medications, if I can't afford treatments, I can't see my specialist. Like, my quality of life goes away. Like, I'm not going to be able to work.
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A
Lindsay currently pays $110 a month for her health insurance, thanks to federal subsidies that help reduce its cost. But as of right now, without that help, her same plan next year will cost $866 a month. That's not including the $800 she spends monthly on medication.
- [07:27]
C
Like a lot of other people. It's like, I'm just trying to make ends meet. Like, I'm just trying to be able to pay my mortgage. And everything keeps going up. My healthcare costs were already going up because of my insurance company. And so when this came out, it just felt like it was gonna break me or it is gonna break me. And I just felt so, and do feel like, so helpless. Right. They're saying it can go up 200, you know, 300%.
- [07:54]
A
Wow.
- [07:55]
C
For. For people in my state, Lindsay, who.
- [07:58]
A
Like a lot of other people is self employed and works on contract, is hoping she finds a salary job with benefits. But those are fewer and far between in this economy. So Lindsay is desperate and she wants her elected representatives to fight.
- [08:13]
C
I definitely want to see them fight. You know, I want. I'm tired of status quo. I'll admit sometimes that that discussion is very frustrating. Like, how will that impact the midterms? Or how will this do that? And I'm just like, oh, well, I'm just trying to make it through the day. And a lot of people that I am are in that place where we don't get to even think. A year and a half down the line, we're just like, in survival mode right now.
- [08:39]
A
In the meantime, she prays.
- [08:41]
C
You know, I am a person of faith, and so I believe that at the end of the day that there's always. That there's always hope, you know, that the end is not the end, death is not the end, and the darkness is not the end. And I think also that what I have seen is that there are people that really do care and there are people that want to come alongside others and walk with people and help people. You know, part of me is like, okay, will I become one of those people that has to go on, go fund me to be able to, you know, live, afford my health insurance, or will like a Hail Mary pass come? You know, that will allow me to get, like, an employer based plan that will be able to give me, you know, insurance and whatnot. And, you know, having this condition, it's like I have been faced with, like, what it really means to suffer, but I've also, at the same time seeing, like, this thing of like, almost like a miracle, like being part of this program that I'm in where I get to go to the hospital and have infusions, finding doctors that really understand it. I will also say that being from Georgia right now, I have been really impressed by the fact that both of my senators are saying that they're fighting.
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A
Yeah.
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C
You know, and all I can do is, like, again, hope that that's what they really do mean. And they're, like, not gonna buckle.
- [10:10]
A
So that is one side of this fight. The very, very real consequences of not getting something done on the Affordable Care act, people will get very, very sick. But on the other side, people are about to go very, very hungry. The Trump administration is holding food stamps hostage. That program is about to run out of money. And that has put extraordinary pressure on the organizations outside of government that feed people. Michael Ledger is the CEO of Feeding the Gulf Coast, a large food bank serving Alabama, Mississippi, and the Florida Panhandle. He works with local partners like pantries and churches to serve people in need. And Michael is already seeing a huge spike in need because of those delayed SNAP benefits, which help one in seven American households. This is a crisis of massive proportions, far worse than any natural disaster.
- [11:05]
B
Katrina, Hurricane Michael, you know, huge impacts. And then, of course, government shutdowns, things like this. But with SNAP being turned off, the numbers just spiral. We're talking about having as many as 18 million meals a month that would need to be replaced by snap. For every for every meal we put out, Snap provides nine.
- [11:24]
A
For context, Michael's organization distributed 35 million meals in in all of 2024. To do 18 million meals in a single month is impossible.
- [11:36]
B
You can see the numbers really escalate quickly, and it's not just the number of meals that these provide, but it's also the way in which they can do that. We have rural areas, 22,000 square miles. Well, I think that says it all. Putting some money on an EBT card is a far more efficient way to try to cover 22,000 square miles than driving around food. So it's a really tough ask. We're working to take the supplies we can get and then equitably distribute them. So it's a big number.
- [12:12]
A
Tens of millions of Americans are currently in serious trouble, and only one party really seems to care about what happens to them next. When we come back, we'll put this all into context with Chris Hayes and ask what should Democrats do now? Runaway country is brought to you by Zbiotics. Let's face it, after a night with drinks, I do not bounce back the next day as I used to. And so I have to make a choice. Either I can have a great night or a great next day. That is, until I found pre alcohol. From holiday parties to festive toasts by the fire, the holidays are full of moments to share a drink with friends and family. Just make sure your first drink of the night is zebiotics. Pre Alcohol Zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct and not dehydration that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Every time I have pre alcohol before drinks, I really do notice a difference the next day. Even after a night out, I can confidently plan on focusing at work and being competent as a person in the world and not feeling miserable. I can plan on it without worry and it's delightful and I just regret it every time I don't have pre alcohol before I go drinking. The thing works. So whether you are raising a glass on turkey day or catching up with old friends or just winding down with a glass of wine after a long week. And aren't they all long weeks? These days, the next morning still matters. So don't forget to drink a pre alcohol. Go to ZBiotics.com Alex to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Alexander at checkout. Zebiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee so if you are unsatisfied for any reason, they will refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to ZBiotics.com Alex and use the code Alex at checkout for 15% off.
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B
If you could hear love, what would it sound like?
- [14:40]
A
Son, can we talk about your drinking?
- [14:44]
B
Yeah, Dad, I think we should. Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking. Maybe that's what love sounds like. More@rethinkthedrink.com an OHA initiative.
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A
Christopher Hayes, thank you for joining us.
- [15:05]
B
My friend, on the rare fun day to talk about politics. The rare. The rarest.
- [15:12]
A
Yeah, don't get too comfortable.
- [15:14]
B
You know what, Please, can I just have a day here?
- [15:17]
A
Yeah, you can have today. You can have today.
- [15:19]
B
I'm gonna take a few days. I'm gonna feel good about it.
- [15:21]
A
I'll take a couple.
- [15:22]
B
I'm gonna take a. Yeah, yeah. I earned it. I deserve it.
- [15:28]
A
It's your mayoral election day.
- [15:30]
B
Exactly.
- [15:33]
A
Do you have like. Okay, so obviously a lot is being made about the, the what happened and the sort of breadth of wins across the country geographically, but also the candidates themselves, from Abigail Spanberger and Mickey Sharl to Zoram Hamdani to whatever's happening in Georgia and Pennsylvania. It's just a huge swath of different kinds of Democrats. Do you have, is this just about candidate recruitment and sort of anti Trump sentiments, or do you have a sort of better unifying theory of the case?
- [16:02]
B
I think there's a few layers, right. So I think like national mood is a real thing. I mean, first of all, we start with the foundational structural part of this from the political science literature, which is called thermostatic public opinion. Right. Which is that when one party's in power, the other party tends to see gains and people switching to it in the off year elections in the midterms. And you know, that's the reason that in 2009, it was Chris, it was the Republicans that won in Virginia and New Jersey. Right. In 2021, it was a Republican that won in Virginia, and that's because there was a Democrat in the White House. So There's a certain bit of this is just structural. There's like a normal amount of what we call thermostatic public opinion. Layered on top of that is what you might call the national mood. The national mood is dyspeptic. It's not happy. Right track, wrong track, numbers. Like, people are not happy with the economy. They think the cost of living is too high. They don't like what Donald Trump is doing. The national mood is very, very disgruntled. And then on top of that, the third layer is, is all the things you do in campaigns. I think the messaging Democrats have developed around affordability, which I think was harder when it was a Democratic incumbent, frankly. It's just really a lot harder to be like, God damn it, things are too expensive. And it's like, well, why don't you talk to Joe Biden? Right. I mean, no.
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A
Well, yeah. Also assisted by the fact that Trump is throwing Gatsby parties and, like, remodeling, like a balance of hardware.
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B
By the way, did you see the sign outside the Oval Office today?
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A
Have you seen which one?
- [17:29]
B
Oh, they put up a sign in what someone called the steakhouse wedding font in gold cursive just outside the Oval Office. It's the funniest thing. I thought it was a bit. I thought it was Photoshopped or AI. It wasn't. So. So, yeah, like, it was. It's. First of all, it's harder to run that cost of living message as the incumbent party. It just is. But a real focus on affordability, candidate recruitment. I do think, frankly, like, some of the more academically inflected aspects of Democratic rhetoric, which were, I think, harmful and alienating, even if they articulated really good values, were. They also got rid of.
- [18:13]
A
Yeah, Van Jones was. Van. Van Jones was talking about that. Like, we're not calling it income inequality or economic justice. We're just talking about, like, the groceries are too fucking expensive.
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B
Yeah. And a great example of this, I think, is Zoramdani, who, you know, is. Is to the left of the Democratic caucus, for sure, who showed up at a rally for trans rights on February 8th when he was pulling double in single digits, who did an entire ad about, like, trans rights pioneers, but who also just doesn't talk in a at all academically inflected or overly jargony way about any of this. Right. So there is a way, like, to keep your commitments and talk like a regular person about this stuff that I think, you know, he's an example of. But I think generally, I mean, if you listen to The Spamberger speech particularly. So much focus on affordability, so much focus on electricity prices. Right. So those to me are like the three layers. And each layer probably gives you a few points, like thermostatic opinion, public opinion gives you a few points. The country not liking Donald Trump, the direction gives you a few points. Candidate performance and messaging gives you a few points. But what they got last night was like all of the points. Right. Like that was a 10 out of 10 performance. When you win Virginia by 15 points, I mean, Young can won it by two. Right. Harris carried it by six or seven. Like a 15 point is a.
- [19:35]
A
It's a. It's a wipeout.
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B
It's a wipeout.
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A
It's a total wipeout. And even in New Jersey, the margin is insanely huge.
- [19:40]
B
13, 12, something like that. Yeah.
- [19:42]
A
Given where we thought Cheryl might be, we thought it was like a single digit race, maybe three points and then it's just a route. Yeah, I guess. I wonder. I mean, part of me building in your three layer burrito to this question, right. Let's say the thermostatic public opinion is what it is. That's foundational.
- [19:59]
B
Yep.
- [19:59]
A
Trump's mishandling of the entire country is something that seems ongoing, structural.
- [20:04]
B
Yeah. I don't think that's gonna stop.
- [20:06]
A
Right.
- [20:07]
B
Not gonna wake up today and be like, what are we doing?
- [20:09]
A
The candidate thing is real. And I just, I had. Amid the sort of breathtaking winds of last night or on Tuesday night, there is a question that nags at me, which is I wonder. I worry that Democrats, because the tent is so big and because you have a party that spans just in one night. Abigail Spanberger to Zoran Mamdani, are we. Are Democrats at risk of becoming a party that's really good at winning state and local races, but has a hard time figuring out a national strategy that fits so many different places, which is in the. The problem Republicans used to have. Right. Like they were really good at the state level and they couldn't do the national level.
- [20:50]
B
Yeah. One of the things I think you saw last night was it does matter to be good at politics. And sometimes the only way to solve for these what seem really difficult problems are people that are just talent, talented at it and a talented team and new people trying new things. So, yes, I agree with that. Like, what is the center of the Democratic Party that spans from Zora Momdani to Abigail Spamberger to maybe, you know, hopefully if the Democrats, you know, for the Democrats, hopefully, like Democrat Rob Sands in Iowa. In Iowa, who's got a shot at that race, right. And he's going to sound, he's probably going to sound to the right of Abigail Spanberger. Right. Who is going to and, and he's going to hit different themes in Iowa. What how does that cohere into a national story? The the one thing I would, I think that's a legitimate concern. But I would say two things. One, innovation, iteration, experimentation, the process of the primary and competition is going to be part of what sorts that out. But I do think it is striking how much this affordability economic message is front and center. It was in all three speeches last night. You know, it was the thing that really propelled Mamdani. I think aside from his charisma and his social media strategy, there's something really there that I think all the different parts of the party align on and I think also increasingly understand that like in the Venn diagram of this complicated coalition, the place where we all agree the most, which is on these sort of core economic justice affordability questions is and the place where we have the most trust from the electorate like that is kind of the sweet spot. And there's going to be a lot of fights around a lot of other issues. But to the extent that all of us are centering that, that I think is the place that it's going to the national message builds from.
- [22:44]
A
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- [25:53]
B
Yep.
- [25:54]
A
I guess I wonder, you know, there. This is a big week for Democrats and people are coming off of Tuesday night with a sense of optimism and unity. And I wonder how you think that should inform the very, very, very significant battle that is being fought right now, however quietly. And like it might seem like it's in stasis, but we have reporting this week that there's real negotiating happening inside Congress. Like how should Tuesday inform the strategy that the Democrats pursue on the shutdown?
- [26:26]
B
On the shutdown. It's a really great question. I mean the first thing I would say is I was skeptical of the health insurance subsidy premium subsidy strategy to the shutdown. I was like, he's like, they're like murdering people on boats and using the Department of Justice to prosecute political enemies. Like, you're going to fund that Department of Justice, like, no health insurance premiums. But you know what? It was an effective. They were right. Like, honestly.
- [26:54]
A
And it keeps. It's just coming to the open enrollment starting.
- [26:57]
B
They were correct. The timing. They're right on the substance. They should extend the subsidies. They're right on the partisan politics. Democrats want to and Republicans don't. They're right on public opinion. Right. Like it's, it is, it is a. The sweet spot of an issue. They're correct. They're on the, they're on the righteous side. They're on the popular side. They're on the good side of all of it and they're on the partisanly unifying side. So the question is, what can count as a win to get the government back open? That really is the question. Right. Because that's what's going to happen. There will be something they can call a win. Ish. On the subsidies, which is we promise we'll bring it to a vote in the first week after you open the government. Some. Something along those lines.
- [27:38]
A
You think that's enough?
- [27:39]
B
I think. Well, I think it depends on how much pain you're willing to tolerate. I mean, honestly, because to the point you're making about the food bank stuff, like, at one level it's sick for him to be like it's a cudgel. But at another level, it's like people are really hurting and you got to figure out the big thing is can't. The question to me about how the shutdown ends is whether the necessary conditions of trust are present to get to something that you can call a win or not. Because there is some negotiated settlement. We promise an up or down vote next week after, let's say that we're it. Right. Like we're going to bring it for a boat in both houses. Now, you can't control how Republicans vote and you never can. You're in the minority. Like, you don't get to control. They vote. But that would be a win if you say, look, we're voting on it and make them walk the plank on it and maybe you can actually get a few Republicans and you can, you can pass it and Donald Trump can veto it or not. But to make a deal like that, there has to be a level of trust that I think is just Totally absent from the system. So I don't even know how you get to whatever the negotiated settlement will look like now. The other problem is the other possibility is Trump caves and is like, I don't like the health insurance premiums going up and just orders them to vote it through.
- [28:55]
A
Well, Trump last night, on Tuesday night said, I mean, partially blamed the Democratic wins and the Republican losses on the fact that he wasn't on the ballot and the shutdown. So he's looking at this landscape and he's saying, this is not working out. This is not working out for me. And the pressure point he's exerting is get rid of the filibuster, which would be, you know, I think, problematic in this, this juncture.
- [29:22]
B
So I, I think it would be a win for them to get rid of the filibuster. And that maybe sounds, you know me.
- [29:29]
A
I'm just a Mitch McConnell. Mitch McConnell. Institutional.
- [29:31]
B
You have, I mean, here's the reason that I think that I really have come to believe, if you take a step back, that part of the way that we got to this moment of the Congress being essentially like Steve Bannon called the Duma, the Russian Parliament, it got harder and harder for Congress to actually do stuff.
- [29:54]
A
Yeah.
- [29:54]
B
And the more difficult it is for Congress to do stuff, the more space the executive takes up. And I would rather a system even on the terrorists are a great example. Like, we've now got this status quo where everyone's going to get one reconciliation bill, which itself is this perverse, weird exception to the filibuster. Everyone then has to like, reverse engineer their policy through tax credits to get it past the parliamentarian, which doesn't make any actual logical sense when you step back. Like, why is this the thing you're allowed to do? I would rather have up or down votes, majority votes in the houses on the tariffs than this madness we have now, which is like, if you have both houses and you have a majority and you want to pass tariffs duly through a constitutional system with the elected representatives and put tariffs on every country, I think that's terrible policy, but that is better than the fiat and whims of one man.
- [30:45]
A
Ok, so you're the TLDR is like you'd rather see the legislative branch get its balls back.
- [30:51]
B
Yes.
- [30:52]
A
And, like, do whatever.
- [30:53]
B
And even if it's bad, even if what they do is stuff that's bad, I would rather it actually be happening through, like, the functioning legislative branch taking votes and passing laws the president signs, rather than the absolute madness that we.
- [31:07]
A
Have now, that's putting a lot of, like, points in John Thune's favor, I guess.
- [31:12]
B
Yes. But I also think it puts a little. It puts things.
- [31:15]
A
Puts more pressure on them to actually.
- [31:17]
B
It does a little bit. Like, this is the thing that's been so wild is how missing any sense of, like, Democratic accountability or, like, what will the media like? They all hate the terrorists. They don't want to vote for the terrorists. They think the terrorists are a bad idea, but they don't have to vote for the terrorists. It's the same thing with Doge. Like, they don't have to do anything. They don't have to own it.
- [31:36]
A
And so an up or down vote on, you know, helping 24 million Americans afford health care is going to be something that they have to own. If they vote on it down.
- [31:43]
B
Yeah, vote on it. And don't like this idea that Donald Trump does it all, and then you get to be like, well, I didn't see. Or, yeah, we like the President. I think that has been part of what's so destructive. So, I mean, I have a longstanding objection. Filibuster. But. But my longstanding objection, you might think, okay, in the dire situation we're in now, of all the times to give a simple majority the tools, this looks like the most dangerous. But in the absence of that, it's not that they just don't do anything. And Congress executive just does it all.
- [32:11]
A
Yeah. I guess it's a counterintuitive proposition that Republicans are gonna somehow grow a backbone when they actually. Or have some version of the spine.
- [32:22]
B
It's not even a backbone so much as it's at least the degree to which none of them seem to give a wit about what the median voter thinks about anything.
- [32:31]
A
Yeah.
- [32:32]
B
Is enabled by the Trump cult, the sort of oversized executive, the lame duck president, where it's like, well, it's all him. You know, what are we going to do? Like, no, you, you. Do you want the tariffs? Vote on the. Should we tariff Brazil at 50% because they tried to prosecute the guy who started a coup. And if you think we should, you're elected to the Senate. You're allowed to vote for that tariff. Fine. I think it's a bad idea. But then people know that you voted for that. And it wasn't just this, this sort of figure who weirdly exists, like, outside politics and outside Democratic accountability.
- [33:10]
A
To the shutdown itself and to how it ends. Because it could be all. It could all be over by Friday. Right.
- [33:16]
B
I think it's almost likely to what do you think?
- [33:20]
A
Well, you know, I think the reality of Sean Duffy closing, you know, federal airspace because they don't have enough TSA air traffic controllers to handle the planes, landing them safely is a thing. I think 42 million Americans, many if not most of whom live in Trump districts, going hungry. And just the sort of morally reprehensible act of a country starving its own people is just something nobody should be able to countenance. I think that's all gonna put a lot of pressure on it, and I think there's some. To your point, I think it's like, you know, Democrats have fought this fight. I do think they've been strategically very sound, and I think that they own Trump owns the premiums going up if that's indeed what happens. Or Republicans will doubly own them if they take a vote, if they vote down federal subsidies. And one of the important things in this moment is to be seen as fighters. And I think that they have very successfully done that. And I don't know that there's like, a period that three weeks from now, if they're gonna get the same deal, that would greatly enrich them in that profile. You know what I mean?
- [34:28]
B
So that's my feeling, too, and particularly I think there's a little strike while the iron's hot in the wake of this drubbing.
- [34:35]
A
But don't you think that's gonna be weird if they. If they say we have all this momentum and we are done with the shutdown, tonally, strategically, I think there's some people that are gonna say, get more from them. Yes, this is the best you can do. What the fuck was it? Why. Why'd we do this?
- [34:50]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it does depend on what the outcome is and what you can. What you can say about it. If it's nothing, if you're just agreeing to the terms ex ante, if there's literally nothing, then I don't think you could do it. If you're given something that says we're taking up the subsidies, the first thing you know, we're Congress coming back to at a recess. Adelita Grahava is going to be swarming, and we're taking up the subsidies next week, that's that. That would count to me as a win. If it's just we can't do this anymore and people are starving or, you know, going hungry, that's a harder thing to sell. Although, again, there is a, like, first order, substantive case to be like, yes, they have decided to inflict so much pain. We can't abide it anymore. And we're the responsible party here. I mean, you can. That is also a plausible argument to.
- [35:46]
A
Give real world sadism. That's what I call it. It's really sick. It's very sick. The lengths to which Trump and the party are willing to go.
- [35:54]
B
And also it's sick also, like Lawrence pointed this out last night, but it's so true. Like it's such a standard part. Like in all three speeches last night, Spamberger and Cheryl and Mamdani said to the people that didn't vote for me, I want to be your representative too. I'm going to listen to you. I'm representative for all of us. Like it. The, the idea like Donald Trump is the lone rep. Single representative for every American. They're the only one person, arguably the vice president too, who is elected to represent everyone. And the degree to which he's just like constant, so normalized. Like, that's a Democrat thing. Oh, Democrat. That's a blue. That's a Democrat city. And it's like, those are Americans. Those are Americans.
- [36:32]
A
They're American. He's gonna literally said he would punish New York City for who? Because of who they voted for. For mayor. Runaway country is brought to you by Fable. As someone who actually uses the things in my home every day, I've gotten actually insanely picky about what stays on my table. You want beautiful things, you want functional things. If you have children, you want things that aren't easily breakable. I like feeling like an adult, even if there are children sitting at the table. And I like feeling like an adult that cares about the things that I'm eating off of just as much as I care about the things I'm actually so Enter Fable. Fable makes modern, minimalist homeware that's actually built to last. Think beautiful ceramics that are dishwasher safe and non toxic and ethically made and surprisingly sturdy. Back to the point about the kids. They partner with artisans in Portugal and they use recycled and locally sourced clay. So it's not just good looking, it's good for the planet too. I had not thought about locally sourced, sustainable, like sturdy and aesthetically pleasing serveware until now. And it's awesome. Even takeout looks better on these plates. If you are hosting this season or just elevating your everyday meals, this is an easy way to make things feel more special and make yourself feel more special. To be honest, Fable's glassware is just as thoughtfully made. It's made in Japan and even though it is super Thin and lightweight. It is ion toughened, which is something I wish I was. Which means it's nearly twice as durable as typical glass. And it is scratch resistant. It is non toxic. It is dishwasher safe, which is amazing. And it feels so good in your hands. So check out fable.com crooked and don't miss their Black Friday sale running until the end of November. That is fable.com crooked. You know you're having Thanksgiving dinner. You know you want it to look good, even if the turkey is a little dry. Put it on a piece of Fable serveware. Drink the wine out of a Fable glass. You will feel like you're having a happy Thanksgiving, even if you don't really like mashed potatoes. That's just my suggestion. Come to DSW for the shoes, stay for the fun. Because let's be honest, if shoe shopping isn't fun, are you even doing it right? So go ahead, try something new. Try something different, good different. Try something that feels like you, you know, the real you. And then definitely brag about it later. Because at dsw, you've got unlimited freedom to play. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or@dsw.com Let us surprise you. Can I ask you just a little bit about how the party should move? Like how the party moves forward with all of this on its plate? Right. The first thing I want to ask is one of the things that seems so intoxicating as the party tries to plan, like 2026 and 2028. One of the things that seems so intoxicating about the Mamdan, for example, as a model is the sense of identity both inside and outside the campaign. Right. They're like the people that. There were, I think 90,000 volunteers, like just a staggering number. And you live in New York City. They were just everywhere. Right. The campaign infrastructure. There was a, dare I say, almost zealotry that attended working for the Bomb Donna campaign in the best way possible. And I'd wonder if you think that sense of identity is something that you can get in a campaign that is not. So what's the right word? I don't want to say strident, but there was a very strong progressive molten center to the Mamdani campaign. And I wonder if you think that sense of identity and community is replicable with like a centrist campaign in like a state like, oh, I don't know, West Virginia. Because everybody keeps talking about Joe Manchin and whether we need more him in the, in the Democratic Party.
- [40:33]
B
I think, I mean, I think it's pretty hard. I think part of it also is just charisma, which is not, you know, it just is a hard thing to replicate. I mean, the closest thing to what I saw on the ground volunteer wise in Mondani was when I lived in Chicago in 2003, when State Senator Barack Obama was running for Senate.
- [40:50]
A
Part of him. Part of him.
- [40:51]
B
Yeah. And it was the same. It was just like everyone was volunteer people. And there's also a degree to which, like, it's very rare that politicians are cool. This happens very rarely. Right. Like it happened with Barack Obama in Illinois and then it happened again with his presidential race. It happened with.
- [41:11]
A
Is Gavin Newsom cool?
- [41:12]
B
No, I don't think Gavin Newsom's cool.
- [41:14]
A
Like, I don't Even with all the.
- [41:15]
B
Memes, maybe it feel, it feels a little less organic. Like the numbers in New York don't lie. Like there was just something going on. They hit 2 million doors. Like they had. It was, it was crazy. But it's you, it's funny you say Gavin Newsom, because one thing I will say is the turnout last night in that Prop 50 race, I think does speak to the fact that there is energy to harness even without. There was no person they were voting for. And California doesn't have off year elections. It's not even a midterm. They never have elections. There was one item and one item only on the ballot and they got what, 10 million people to come out? 11. Something like that. That is wild to me. So that suggests there is, there is energy there to harness. I mean, no kings brought 7 to 8 million people out on the streets with no leader. Like there's energy to harness that it. That can be harnessed in other places and not just around, you know, a particularly ideologically distinct agenda in the case of mom Donnie, although I think that you can't separate that from his, his energy. Like that's not an accident that hit or a particularly charismatic figure. I think, look, turnout was really high. I mean, look at what happened Virginia. Like they flipped 13 seats and they're flipping 13 seats in the House of Delegates because people are coming out. And that's, that's something that's being driven by. I mean, spamberger won by 15 or 16 points. Now she had a pretty crappy opponent, but, but she ran a good race. And there is enthusiasm that, that can be exported and replicated. And I think if you see a like competitive Senate race in Iowa, you're going to see crazy numbers of volunteers and small donors.
- [42:57]
A
I I think it's also, it's enthusiasm, but it's people fighting. I mean, the, one of, one of the things that people. That is the thing of Trump is he's a fighter and he's a pugilist and always has positioned himself as such. And Democrats have not taken that position. They've taken uniters. And some people would say critically apologists. And this is the first time where you've seen a kind of, I don't even want to say punitive because it's, I think, warranted, but like a real, you know, brawler's attitude towards everything. Towards everything. And I will note Zohran Mandani said, like, let this be the last time I mention Andrew Cuomo by name ever again. Or whatever he said, you know, like, there are people.
- [43:36]
B
I wish him all the best in his private life.
- [43:38]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [43:39]
B
And turn the volume up.
- [43:40]
A
I mean, that was exactly if Donald Trump. I know you're listening.
- [43:44]
B
Let's play four words for you. I wish Andrew Cuomo only the best in private life, but let tonight be the final time I utter his name. So, Donald Trump, since I know you're watching, four words for you. Turn the volume up.
- [44:13]
A
I think what we're hearing, I mean, I think that actually your mentioning of Prop 50 is, is, is actually the whole ball game. That, that wasn't meant to happen. 10 million people weren't meant to come out to vote for.
- [44:25]
B
That is a mind. I mean, that really is mind blowing. Like, that is a procedural mechanism bank shot being done in response to another state's internal gerrymandering that has to clear this hurdle because of the state's own constitution and, and structure that was very popular under Schwarzenegger. To stop essentially partisan gerrymandering in the state. I think a good idea and I think we should have a national law, right. That, that doesn't. That avoids the race to the bottom. To be able to rush that through, sign it on the last day. I think they could possibly sign it to get it on the ballot. Get it on the ballot, mount the campaign, not just win by whatever they won by. We'll see what the final numbers are. The win is less. If you won with 3 million people because no one cares and the only people that came out were to vote for it, that would be a different story than, I think like midterm level. Between midterm and presidential level turnout for this just says like, my God, that, that, that there is something very big happening there.
- [45:30]
A
I want to ask you one or two more questions because you've written a book about attention and how it's our most valuable resource. Right. And I guess I wonder how you square the need for attention getting political maneuvers like, I don't know, memes or filibusters on the floor of the Senate. I see you, Cory Booker, with the reality of what people are experiencing day to day and how much you like. Right. We're talking about, in fact the government shutdown, which is shut down, I think.
- [46:02]
B
Is a good example.
- [46:03]
A
Right. Like there's, I mean we're talking about 70 million Americans who are literally being affected directly by what's happening between SNAP and the ACA premium hikes. And yet like, you know, all the attention is going to be on these races that we're talking about this week. And like the government shutdown has gotten almost no attention and like that's to say nothing of the federal bureaucracy and the people that are doing the hard work of government and are either unpaid or, or furloughed or never gonna get that money at all. I feel like you're gonna say something here and I don't wanna interrupt you, but.
- [46:39]
B
No, no, go ahead.
- [46:40]
A
I guess how much does the noise and the attention grabbing actually supersede the real substance of what Democrats are doing?
- [46:49]
B
Okay, so I would, I disagree a little bit insofar as I think the national, I think the shutdown has gotten a fair amount of attention and I think it's, it has broken through to a certain amount. I mean I think that shows up in the polling and I think to the extent that the like two things have been notable to me about the shutdown. They had an opportunity to do this back in the spring and they didn't. Right. Quite famously, Chuck Schumer whipped the votes on the Democratic side to, to give a filibuster proof majority to pass a government funding bill. And to me that was born of. They didn't want negative attention. They didn't want a big story about how Democrats shut down the government. It was a risk averse play. I think what's changed is they have lost a little that risk aversion. They are less worried about negative attention and understand that big things have to happen to break through. Now your point, which is that this enormous thing, which is going to maybe be the longest shutdown ever, it still doesn't feel like it is. Right. It still isn't the biggest thing is true, but it's bigger than business as usual. It's, it's more attention grabbing than when the government wasn't shut down. And they have put more attention on the health care subsidy issue than before they shut down, you know, before the government shutdown happened. So I think it's been a success and I think in some ways it's borne, borne out some of the lessons from the book. Right. Be less afraid of negative attention. Attention really matters. Sometimes you have to take high risk strategies to get it. This was a high risk strategy. I don't even know how it's going to play out. But so far I think it's been pretty good. And I think it might end up with something both substantively and politically good. You're right that breaking through when you don't have the bully pulpit combined with the particular psychopathology of Donald Trump is difficult. But the shutdown to me is the, is the most earnest, concerted, strategic effort to deal with that attentional asymmetry. The other thing I'll say is, have you noticed that the normally kind of press shy or not inclined to give interviews, leadership members of the Democratic caucus have been giving a lot more interviews. Like Hakeem Jeffries has been everywhere. It's been much easier to book members of the show. Now, part of that is they don't.
- [48:56]
A
Have a day job for your show, for your show. Just to be clear, we made some calls here at Crooked Media. Sometimes they don't wanna talk to us.
- [49:04]
B
Chris, you're our fourth choice. But no, it's like when you get a wedding invite three weeks before that wedding, you're like, huh, that has happened to me. I must have been on the C list.
- [49:13]
A
That fucking definitely has happened to me.
- [49:16]
B
Oh, by the way, oh my God, we're getting married in three.
- [49:19]
A
You.
- [49:19]
B
Oh, wow. In Maui, huh?
- [49:25]
A
Yes.
- [49:25]
B
I, so I, I think, I generally think it's actually been a success and I think it's kind of like progress, honestly.
- [49:31]
A
I'm not saying it's not progress.
- [49:32]
B
And I think the Newsom, I think Newsom's another example. Like, they, this Prop 50 strategy required him getting a lot of attention to this issue and they worked really hard to do it and they succeeded.
- [49:45]
A
So, I mean, I, I agree with you. I think that they are absolutely. That last week's episode was all about how they're playing a different version. Baseball.
- [49:51]
B
Yes. Yeah, right, exactly.
- [49:53]
A
They're throwing curve balls they did not use. They were just trying to throw strikes before. Yeah, that's a baseball metaphor that I learned because I have an 8 year old in kid pitch now and so that's laudable. I guess I just worry they should get attention and they should get Credit into the midterms and I would argue 20, 28 for what they're doing right now, which is such a principled fight.
- [50:15]
B
Right.
- [50:15]
A
But that you're already shaking it that way.
- [50:16]
B
Well, it's just like nothing, no one remembers anything so.
- [50:19]
A
Well, I do think it depends on what happens with those healthcare costs.
- [50:22]
B
Yeah, that's right.
- [50:23]
A
It depends on what happens.
- [50:24]
B
I agree.
- [50:25]
A
People remember not being able to put food on the table. People remember not being able to go to the doctor's office.
- [50:29]
B
It also depends. I'll say one more thing which I always have to remind myself as I like try to think about the future. It also depends on events. I mean, yeah, if we have some awful messy war with Venezuela that starts in three weeks, then all this is. And I'm being serious.
- [50:45]
A
I know know.
- [50:46]
B
You know what I mean? Like, do you. What was the biggest issue in, you know, August 2001 in American politics? Right. It was like Jim Jeffers was frustrated with the Bush administration and switched parties and, and.
- [50:59]
A
Okay, okay, okay, okay.
- [51:01]
B
You know, like so my point just being that like that's the other thing to always remember. Nobody knows, no one knows, you know, around the corner. But that's what it is.
- [51:11]
A
But you know what, that's all the more reason to take a swing when you get.
- [51:14]
B
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Precisely because you don't know you could control what you can control, which is your strategy. Are you having a principled fight? Are you fighting on terrain? Again, that's the correct, like good for people, which is probably the most important thing. Politically advantageous also keeps your coalition united and divides theirs. If you have something like that, you got to go for it. And I think there's a good lesson here. It's also, I think not. I think it's also a good lesson for the more risk averse members of the coalition that the shutdown extended into the election and, and produced the election night in the middle of the shutdown. I mean clearly the worst fears about the strategy, which is that people would blame the Democrats and be mad at the Democrats and think that Democrats don't want to govern and they shut down the government and that would hurt the Democratic Party. That clearly didn't happen. Right.
- [52:04]
A
A three term member of Congress who's a Democrat in Virginia just won the governor's seat.
- [52:12]
B
Right.
- [52:12]
A
Surrounded by a bunch of federal workers who've been screwed over in the shutdown. So never forget. Okay. Chris Hayes, busy man, lots of thoughts. I cherish everything that you say.
- [52:25]
B
Oh my God, it's so embarrassing how many takes I have. I'm like what do you need?
- [52:28]
A
Oh my God, you need more takes. There's 16. So good you need more takes.
- [52:32]
B
I got more takes.
- [52:33]
A
You're the best. Stick around forever. Thank you for your time buddy. I appreciate you.
- [52:38]
B
You're the best. Talk soon.
- [52:42]
A
Before we go, I want to hear from you. Have you been impacted directly by the Trump administration and its policies? Maybe you've experienced changes to your job or to your health care or at your kids school. If so, I want to hear it all, whether these policies have impacted you for better or for worse. So send us an email or a one minute voice note@runawaycountryrooked.com and we may be in touch to feature your story. And thank you to everyone who has written in already. Last but not least, don't forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkovski. Our producer is Emma Ilick Frank. Production support from Megan Larson and Lacey Roberts. The show is mixed and edited by Charlotte Landis. Ben Hethcote is our video producer and Matt de Groat is our head of production. Audio support comes from Kyle Seglin. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. Katie Long is our executive producer of development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.