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Runaway Country with Alex Wagner
What’s Next for Voting Rights, and Why Activism Matters (w/ Jane Fonda)
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- [00:01]
McDonald's Advertiser
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- [00:28]
Jane Fonda
Refreshers contain caffeine.
- [00:31]
Stacey Abrams
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- [00:37]
ZipRecruiter Narrator
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Stacey Abrams
Fantastic.
- [01:14]
ZipRecruiter Narrator
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- [01:31]
Assembly Required Host
This week the crackerjack Runaway country team is out celebrating our hard fought independence from tyranny. At least historically speaking. But we did not want to leave you hanging. And so this week we have a very special democracy enhancing installment of Assembly Required just for you. Stacey Abrams, who has dedicated her career to voting rights and representation, has a bang up episode. She answers all your questions about what happens now that the Supreme Court has reversed C60 years of progress by destroying the Voting Rights Act. And she provides guidance about how to navigate this very treacherous moment in our democracy. And then Stacey talks with the great actress Jane Fonda, activist extraordinaire and my mother's hashtag FitnessGoals. Circa 1989, Stacey and Jane get into free speech in the age of Trump, the dumpster fire over at CBS Paramount and why advocacy matters now more than ever. If you like it, be sure to check out Assembly Required every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.
- [02:43]
Stacey Abrams
Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Cricket Media. I'm your host Stacey Abrams. This Week, I am thrilled to be joined by the inimitable actor and activist Jane Fonda. We'll talk about her history of bold political advocacy, her brilliant career, and why she relaunched the McCarthy era organization committee for the First Amendment, which counted her father, Henry Fonda, as one of its original members. But first, I want to take a moment to discuss the Supreme Court's recent ruling impacting voting rights across the country. In a decision you're probably hearing about, called the Calais Decision, the Supreme Court reversed 60 years of progress. And what they said is that Section 2 of the Voting Rights act, which required that states actually draw districts that reflected the racial composition of their states, that they no longer have to do it. Justice Samuel Alito wrote the majority opinion, and basically he said that rather than detecting what has happened with racial intent, you now have to be a psychic and know what they meant. But he also said that in states like Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, Texas, and Florida, that no longer will those states with significant populations of color be required to actually ensure that those voters have the ability to elect representation that reflects their needs. That's a problem because the Voting Rights act is what worked to make democracy possible for millions of Americans. And so now I want to answer some questions from you about what happened and what it means. So I'm going to start with two questions from our Discord Channel. The first is from Amber B. She writes, I live in Alabama, and I was involved with redistricting in 2021 at the state, county, and local levels. Specifically, I worked with a local organization to fight for a fairer map for city council seats. And while we made a lot of noise, we weren't successful. Everyone involved in the group was burned out by the effort. But another round of redistricting is now happening with the deck stacked even further against us. What advice would you give to people who are going to be redistricted by this effort? What can we do to fight back? And how can we convince our friends and neighbors to join that fight? Amber, I really appreciate your question, because the fundamental premise of redistricting is that in a representative democracy, we have to draw a line somewhere. We have to decide who gets to pick and how many people get counted. And so typically we look at the population and then we divide it up based on those numbers. But that presumes that everyone votes alike. And so one of the reasons we have elected representation is that the point is to let people of common cause or like minds get to say what they need where they are. It's like allowing farmers or ranchers to not vote for vegans or vice versa. And so the goal in redistricting at the state and local level in particular should be to get as close as possible to the needs of the people. But what's happened in Alabama and across the south and actually literally across the country is that the people who want the jobs are deciding which voters they want. And that is wrong. And so it is coming upon us, those of us who are actually affected by this, to fight back. It is exhausting. I began my time in the legislature after redistricting had happened, but I was the leader when we did redistricting in 2011. And it is difficult when you are trying to draw lines for fairness against people who believe that fairness is an obstacle to their political dominion. But they want us to be exhausted. They want us to give up. And unfortunately, but also truthfully, the most important thing we can do is remind people about what is at stake. So you talk about city council districts. If you live in a community where affordable housing is an issue, the people who sit on the city council decide zoning rules. They decide how many people can live in a certain community, how many buildings can be built. We gotta reconnect what voting does to what politicians do. And so one of the most important and I think high impact efforts that we can do right now is not try to convince people to join the fight because it's a fight. They need to join the fight because they lose if they don't. And we have seen it work both ways. The way we got the Voting Rights act was that people kept voting for people who actually believe that black and brown folks should get to participate in our democracy. And so we've got to localize that and remind ourselves that redistricting is designed for the politicians, but the politicians work for the people. We don't win automatically and we don't win overnight, but we win when we get loud. And so make sure that you're trying to convince your friends and your neighbors not that they can win every time, but that if they don't fight, their silence is taken as consent. The second question is from Cats and Mangoes. Can Stacy walk through the math of how states with large black populations have so little representation of for their black citizens? I feel an undercurrent recently where people are blaming the targets of voter suppression rather than the perpetrators. Like, quote, use it or lose it. I live in a place where I'm taking a Republican ballot in the primary because local Democrats either don't run or don't have primary competition. The general election is a foregone conclusion. Does a similar dynamic happen in the South? Cats and mangoes. What you're describing we call every day in the South. So let's start with how we got here. The Civil War ended, and we needed laws. We needed constitutional amendments to cement what the Civil War had won for everyone. So we got the 13th amendment, which said slavery should end, except if you're in prison. Then we got the 14th amendment, which gave us birthright citizenship, which they're trying to undo. And the 15th amendment said that you could not prohibit the right to vote based on race, creed, or color. Well, the problem was that there were a lot of black people living in a place that had just lost a war. And Reconstruction said for the first time in American history, those voices needed to be counted. Fast forward to Jim Crow and the attempt was to rescind that decision to say that the 15th Amendment was an illusion. And then we get the Voting Rights Act. The Voting Rights act said, no, we meant it, and now we're going to make you do it. And so there are two big pieces. Section five, which said that if you're going to pass any laws that made it harder to vote, you had to get permission, you had to get preclearance. Now, Section two did something different. It said that if you're drawing lines or making rules that have racist effect, then we can do something about it. But it also said, we know that you've been manipulating the maps to make certain that people of color, namely black folks, couldn't get together enough to pick someone they wanted. And so it intentionally said that you had to draw lines to give those communities a voice. You didn't have to give them as much of a voice as they needed, but you had to give them more of a voice than they had. And because 56% of black Americans live in the south, that has meant that disproportionately black elected officials in the congressional levels come from the South. But the problem still is that those who do not value those votes are the ones drawing the lines. And that is why black voters are disproportionately affected by the erasure of the Voting Rights Act. The blame the victim is always the case. It happens in every battle for power. And our responsibility is to fight back. I know you are disappointed because Democrats aren't running in every competition. And sometimes they don't run because they think, why bother? I'm going to tell you why. Because Republicans haven't always been in charge. They decided a long time ago they were going to run Even if they were going to lose because people needed to see them and hear them and it worked. They were able to build political power. We've got to do the same. We've got to believe the same. This dynamic happens across the country, but it is more concentrated and more visible in the South. But I love your question, because what I want people to understand is that what starts in the south is never stays here. We are the incubator for the worst perfidies, but we are also the incubators for the solutions. We keep fighting and in Georgia, we prove that that fight can win. Win so effectively that they had to double down. But I want everyone in this country to remember we're all in this together. And so, yes, these dynamics play out in the south, but across the country, especially in the Southwest, where Latinos are the targets and in certain communities where Native Americans are the targets. But no matter where it is happening, it's about the kind of America we get to have. And so we should all be engaged in this fight and we should all show up whenever we can. The last couple of questions I'm going to answer are going to be about process. So a few of you asked, what's a good long term plan to push back? What effect does this have on the electoral College that comes from Mango Bellini? And then the last person said, it just seems like it's too hard. We've already lost. So let me tell you what we can do. We have the opportunity now to start fighting for what's next. They hold the power, but in the midterm elections, we can elect a Congress that can stop things from getting worse, but they can't reverse anything. We can also though, elect Democrats up and down the ballot, especially at the state and local levels, because congressional lines are drawn by the states, City council, county commission, state legislative lines are drawn at the state level. And so we've got to show up and overwhelm the system with our presence. And I know it feels like you hear this every single election cycle, but I want to remind you all, it has worked. In 2018, when I ran for governor, I did not register 800,000 people. That cycle I registered 80,000. But the voter suppressing Secretary of State who went on to become governor only processed about 40,000 of those registrations. But here's the thing that gets underreported. I didn't win. But number one, we turned out 800,000 people who had not previously participated in elections. That's the first thing. Second, we flipped 14 House seats. We took ourselves from being near super minority status in the House to being competitive for actually taking the House back in this upcoming election. We did that because we refused to give up. It is easy for people to say keep fighting. It is easy to believe that there's going to be some silver bullet that comes in and solves the problem. We are the silver bullets. We are the ones who have to do the work. We cannot tell Republicans often enough that they are destroying our democracy and make them stop. But what we can do is three things. One, we can make certain that we are registering voters everywhere. Math matters. And the more people we have on our side showing up, the better chances we have of winning. Number two, we have to use every blue state to start pushing back. That means passing local voting rights acts. That means making sure we're leveraging those maps to do what's right. And we have to demand that at those blue state levels we don't abandon the South. And then number three, we have to start looking ahead. Because it's not just about 26, it's about 28. It's about 2030 when we have our census and it's about 2032 when we have finally come on the other side. Our democracy is imperiled. I talk about that a lot. But I want us to learn from what just happened in Hungary that our democracy is also salvageable. We can win if we work. I want us to remember here it's assembly required. Our mission is not just to know what's wrong, but to figure out how to build what we need. This is a horrific decision. This is a stain on America. But it's also a call to action. And together, I believe we can get it done.
- [15:19]
McDonald's Advertiser
All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with popping Boba to crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six. All new drinks are here now at McDonald's.
- [15:46]
Jane Fonda
Refreshers contain caffeine.
- [15:52]
Stacey Abrams
The incredible, extraordinary, awesome Jane Fonda. Thank you so much for coming to assembly required.
- [15:58]
Jane Fonda
And it's Jane Fonda with the incredible, awesome, amazing. Stacey Abrams. I am honored and so happy to be with you, Stacy.
- [16:08]
Stacey Abrams
Well, it is a delight I got to see you in Los Angeles a few weeks ago and reminded you that even though we hadn't met in person until then, I had worked for you for many years. You have an organization here in Georgia called GCAP that has done Extraordinary work addressing teen pregnancy and just giving young people a sense of agency in their lives. You and I got to do a zoom call probably about two years ago around issues of climate change. So I know I'm doing the right thing whenever I show up. And Jane Fonda's been there for a minute. It's just an honor. It's truly an honor to be with you today.
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Jane Fonda
Thank you. Are you in Georgia now?
- [16:48]
Stacey Abrams
I am. I'm here in Georgia. We are getting ready to launch yet another fight against the latest wave of voter suppression. Luckily, the state of Georgia has declined to redraw its district lines right now. But you know that in Tennessee, in fact, I think their session starts.
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Jane Fonda
Yeah.
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Stacey Abrams
So Tennessee starts on Wednesday. Louisiana canceled their congressional elections. Alabama is calling a special session. So across the country, the Voting Rights act not only has fallen, but they are taking full advantage. And one reason I wanted to have you on the show is that you have not just been paying attention, you've been fighting back for so long. Back in October, you, along with hundreds of members of the entertainment industry, revived the Committee for the First Amendment, which is a group that your father strongly supported in the 1940s. So I'd love to open the conversation by having you tell us a little bit more about the organization and its history.
- [17:48]
Jane Fonda
It was formed by. By major figures in Hollywood back in the late forties with the House UN American Activities Committee was carrying on these investigations, just rooting out. They said communism, but in fact, they just were rooting out people who were standing up to racism, to all the bad things that were happening. Careers were destroyed. I'm thinking of Paul Robeson. Paul Robeson was maybe the very first black movie star, global celebrity. You know, he earned. He was. He graduated Phi Beta Kappa. He was a professional football player. He was a professional opera singer. He was an actor. He was a global spokesperson for Equity, for Fairness, for ending racism. He earned, at the time, about $2 million a year. When HUAC got through with him, his career was destroyed. He was destroyed. And then it continued on with Joe McCarthy into the 50s. Now, the committee for the First Amendment, which my father was a member of, it was really important that they showed that Hollywood was fighting back. We want to do more than that. We don't want to be performative. We want to actually move the needle. We realized that what is happening in the United States now is far more serious than what was going on in the 40s and 50s. We are seeing a very rapidly consolidating authoritarian regime that has broken through and is Destroying our democracy. And I think that we're all learning right now what to do in the face of this. You don't do the same things that you do when the opposition is not a major authoritarian force. The authoritarians behind this have been preparing for this for a long, long time. That's why they're succeeding so fast in destroying our institutions. They prepared, they planned, they published what they were going to do. They told us what they were going to do, and they're doing it. I think that what people believe now is the thing we have to. All governments and regimes are held up by pillars of support. The regime is only a support as powerful as its pillars. If the pillars are weakened, the regime collapses. What are the pillars? The military, the economy, the legal institutions, entertainment, education, et cetera. And so a bunch of us thought, well, now's the time to start organizing our pillar, the entertainment industry. This time we're talking about writ large, we're talking about agents and managers and makeup artists and hairstylists and costumes, everybody involved in the entertainment industry, including talk show hosts. And we have about 3,500, 3,500 people as members now, and it's growing all the time.
- [21:10]
Stacey Abrams
Well, Jane, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you and I want to talk in greater detail about exactly how you're going about this, but before I do that, I've been spending a lot of time with my dad and my mom lately. My dad's been a little sick, and I've been going to the hospital to visit him and my mom. When the Voting Rights act decision came down, when the Calais decision gutted the Voting Rights act, the conversation I had with my parents was about the fact that, you know, my dad was arrested when he was 14 for registering black people to vote in Mississippi. My mom was talking to us about, talking to me about gerrymandering, and she raised a question. And it hit me that my mother never studied gerrymandering in her program. She did a undergraduate degree in political science, but she didn't study this because she didn't have the right to vote. And so there's this familial responsibility that I feel that keeps me in this fight when it gets really hard. I know you have a similar relationship with your dad. Can you talk about his relationship with activism and why it's a part of who you are?
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Jane Fonda
My dad, I don't think he would have like to be called an activist. My dad was a moderate Democrat. He believed that the way he could end the war was to get Johnson Elected. And when he realized that Johnson was not going to end the war, what he didn't know then that we can know now if we pay attention. Johnson didn't end the war because he was afraid that Bobby Kennedy would call him an unmanly man. These are the kind of things. This is who people are and how they were raised is so important. We have to think about these things when we elect people to office anyway. You know, he said to me, when I became an activist in 1970, and I was visiting military bases and talking to guys who had been in Vietnam, talking to me, and they couldn't even speak above a whisper when they said that some of the things that they. That was eating them alive from the inside, that they felt guilty about. And I came home and I told my dad what I had heard, and he didn't believe it. He said, no, that can't be possible. And he said, if you can prove to me that this is true, I will lead marches on Washington. And so I brought him soldiers and I brought him Green Berets, and he. It's a generational thing. So, you know, my dad worried for me because I was more radical than he was. And so there was this generational split. I mean, people have talked a lot about this during the Vietnam War. Really split apart families. It didn't split apart my family, but we had disagreements, you know, and then when I started meeting with Panthers, Black Panthers, he really got scared, you know, he worried. Although ultimately he believed in what I was fighting for. He just wasn't sure about the means. And I think if he were alive today. And I said, dad, I don't want to be performative. I want to move the needle. I want to find a way that our industry can really be part of changing this, of causing an authoritarian regime to fail. I'm not sure he would have understood that. What really has influenced me in my activism more than my dad as an everyday person was the roles that he played. You know, that's why often when I'm speaking to our fellow performers, we have to be as brave as the characters we play. You know, Tom Joad in grapes of wrath, 12 angry men, the Wrong man, the Oxbow Incident. He played men who were willing to sacrifice their lives for freedom and justice. My dad didn't talk very much, neither did King, to his children. I asked Iolanta King, and she said, no. My dad didn't ever sit me on his lap and talk to me about values and the right way to be and so forth. And I said, well, no, My dad didn't either. But you had your father's sermons and I had my father's films. And that was what really I knew. I could tell as a child that when my father was playing those characters, he was happy. And I wanted to make him happy. I wanted to own those. Those qualities.
- [26:11]
Stacey Abrams
Yeah, no, I think that's so beautifully said. I mean, part of what happened with my family when I was campaigning, I would tell people the story. You know, my parents, they took us to volunteer and they would take us to soup kitchens and homeless shelters. They would take us to marches and we would look at them. We're like, you do know we're poor too. But it was their action, it was their behaviors. But they both had full time jobs. My mom was a librarian, my dad was a shipyard worker. And there were risks that they had to take.
- [26:41]
McDonald's Advertiser
All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with popping Boba. To crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavor and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six? All new drinks are here now at McDonald's.
- [27:08]
Jane Fonda
Refreshers contain caffeine.
- [27:10]
Stacey Abrams
Were ways that they had to navigate. What's so important about the story you just told about your father and about the roles that he could play is that it speaks to the fact that we have different ways we can enter this fight. Can you talk a little bit about how people can navigate their responsibilities as citizens to speak out against atrocities, to speak out against a government that is attacking the vulnerable, but to do so from a place of not just power, but of recognition that whether it's generational, whether it's cultural, we don't all have to do the same thing, but we can all do something. I'd love for you to talk about how you've seen that play out both with your father's generation, but also what you're seeing today.
- [27:58]
Jane Fonda
Every time you ask me question, then I get emotional because these things had such an effect on my life. I'll start with the most basic thing. When I first became an activist, I was married, I lived in France. I left everything. I left my family, I left my husband. I moved back into my father's house. 1970, Barbarella had just come out. I had never. I didn't know what the left was. I had never been involved in anything because I kind of knew if I engage, everything will change for me. I was asked to become a freedom rider. I Was asked to go south to register people to vote. And instead I went to France. And I know why. But now, anyway, I was here because of what soldiers had told me about what was going on in Vietnam. I wanted to help end it. And because it was soldiers that had opened my eyes, I became part of what was called the GI Movement. Active duty soldiers that were opposed to the war. And there were Outside of about 25 military bases in the U.S. there were what were called GI Coffee Houses, where young soldiers could come and learn about the history of Vietnam, learn about the history of movements. They were kind of like. They were like fraternity houses or something. They had posters on the walls, Grateful Dead. They were fun places to come. And they were mostly run by women. And in Fort Hood, Texas, I mean, in Killeen, Texas, where there was Fort Hood, there was a coffee shop, a coffee house called the Olio Strut, run by Terry Davis.
- [29:53]
Stacey Abrams
A woman.
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Jane Fonda
Being with her, I realized I am with someone now. And the whole vibe of this place, that is different from anything that I have ever known in my life, I didn't miss it because I didn't know it existed, but it was. She connected with me. She saw me not as a movie star who just did Barbarella, but how did I feel when I go onto the base to distribute leaflets and risk getting arrested? How do I feel when I talk to the GIs and all the people there? They were clearly really, really smart. They weren't about being famous. They weren't about being rich. They were there because they really believed the war was wrong, and they were willing to do this anyway. Being with Terry, it was like getting into a warm bath. It was like looking through a keyhole at the world that we were fighting for. And all I knew, Stacy, is this is the tribe I want to belong to. This is where I want to be. This is how we have to be now. You don't have to be trained or rich or be a Republican or it doesn't matter. Be the change that we're fighting for so that people will be drawn to that. We have to embody the world that we want. What is that world? I believe in a multiracial democracy in which everybody feels safe, seen, and cherished. And so that's how I have to be. I have to represent the world that I'm fighting for. And this is what we can all do. It doesn't matter what party we belong to, what race we are, what socioeconomic level we're in. So that's one thing. Another thing that I think is really critical and God, I've learned the hard way, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. I was a loose cannon. I mean, I'm Jane Fonda, you know what I mean? So when I make mistakes, which I do when I'm alone because I'm too emotional, I get very passionate and worked up and I kind of follow my emotions. I'm not a strategic thinker, but when I am with a group, an organization of people that they don't have certain abilities that I have, but they have abilities that I don't have, Strategy, long term view, this is what we need to look for. Where can we join a group that will make us safer, make us braver and help us understand where we're going and why? And that's what I've done and it's the smartest thing that I've ever done. And it's what has led me to do the specific because I do two things now. I have a Jane Fonda climate pact that elects people. Well, this year we're helping to take back the House and the Senate, but usually we are down ballot. And what that means is we don't deal with the federal elections, the sexy ones. This government and the Congress and the Senate and the president, we governor, state legislature, city council, school boards, city controllers, public utilities. These are the people that can really affect climate, the climate crisis. They can help make a town or a city or a state more resilient, safer. They can keep a pipeline from coming through, they can prevent a Superfund site from remaining and poisoning everybody and so forth. And the reason that we started the PAC is because we've all written books and written articles and lobbied and marched and gotten arrested for decades. And we never got the legislation that's commensurate with what science is saying. So we thought, okay, we know why that's not happening. Because so many elected officials take money from the fossil fuel industry and the petrochemical chemical industry and so forth. So they're not going to fight for people, they're going to be fighting for corporations. And this is, I mean our government basically has become corporate since the 80s. So if you can't change the people, change the people. We're electing new kinds of people. And this is what fills me with hope because I mean these are people who really care about the climate, also care about human beings, working people, fairness, equality, all those things. They're mostly women. We're not going out and looking for women candidates. It just so happens that most of the really brave, powerful, winnable candidates are women, very often women of color, all over the country. And we're having a lot of success, so changing the people to build for that future that we're looking for. That's with the Climate PAC and then with the Committee for the First Amendment. It's confronting the authoritarian regime that we're facing now and focusing on the ultimate amendment, the First Amendment. And the First Amendment has five freedoms in it. Speech, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, and freedom to petition or protest.
- [36:06]
Stacey Abrams
Well, I love what you just said. I love this. If you can't change the people, change the people. But you also speak so eloquently about how democracy actually is lived. I mean, your point about the reason climate matters is that people who care about the climate tend to care about the people the climate's affecting. And too often we distinguish between democracy and something else. We talk about democracy as this abstract, as opposed to connecting the dots. And I love how you connect the dots between the very practical and existential and the abstract, which is this idea of democracy. But the other thing that you said was about strategy. And one thing I talk about a lot is how we talk about and frame this fight against authoritarianism matters. And I think it's very notable that the organization's committee statement never mentions Trump. And I did some digging and found that the original committee statement from 47 didn't specifically mention McCarthy either. And to me, that seems like a strategic decision. Was that just no mission or what's the reason for not. Not calling people out by name?
- [37:20]
Jane Fonda
I think it's important for people to understand that this didn't start with Trump and it won't end with Trump. It's a systemic problem, and part of it has to do with the Democratic Party. When the Democratic Party forgets about working people and focuses on donors and banks and Wall street, then this is going to happen. People feel. People have to feel that their government sees them and respects them and will take care of them. I have lived, you know, because I'm an actress and I travel and I work in other countries, which is different than just being a tourist. I've spent time in Norway. I've spent time in Canada. I've spent time in Sweet. People are different. They're like river rock. The edges have been worn away. They seem peaceful. They're people who feel safe now. This was a while back that I was in these countries, and it may be different now because of everything that's happening. But when you feel that Your government sees and respects you, a lot of anxiety goes away. You know, it's why there. Michael Moore did a documentary called Bowling for Columbine. It was about violence and it showed in Canada. They have. They see just as many violent videos, they own just as many guns, and they have a lot less violence. And one of the main reasons is that people feel taken care of. If they're pregnant, you know, they're going to get extra care. If they're very old, they're going to get extra care and so forth. This is what really makes the difference. If we live in a selfish, violent government country run by that kind of a government, that's the kind of people we'll become.
- [39:28]
Stacey Abrams
You said, you know, part of what we've got to do is not be so myopically focused on a single personality, but we also have to be focused on the work that gets delivered. And part of what you have been leading on the forefront of, and you referenced it at the top of our conversation, that when we talk about the First Amendment, it includes talk show host. And I want to get your opinion. I know that recently Brendan Carr, misusing his authority as the head of the fcc, has been trying to manipulate licenses to force Disney to go after Jimmy Kimmel again. And when it happened the first time, when they went after Kimmel the first time, your organization said, speak up, push back, do not capitulate, do not be silent. And people boycotted. Disney saw 3 million cancellations. Hulu saw 4.1 million cancellations. How seriously do you take this newest attack on him, again led by the president and his wife? And do you think a similar action is going to be necessary this time around?
- [40:31]
Jane Fonda
Absolutely. Absolutely. This is especially when we can use like our, our financial power to the extent that we can affect their pocketbooks. This is what we have to do. We have to cancel our subscriptions. We have to do it again. You know, it's. This is authoritarians. Don't view the arts, artists, and especially comedians as decoration. This is fundamental democratic infrastructure. Authoritarians, they rely on a sense of inevitability. Nothing you can do. This is what has to happen. And we're going to be here forever and we have ultimate power. When a comedian comes along and suggests maybe not so much not true, you can be ridiculed and you can be, we can get rid of you and so forth. Mocking authoritarianism is very effective. It's major. So they go after comedians, they go after the arts. Why? Art can show that. But things don't have to be like this. There are alternatives. Artists can make you feel across difference. We can create empathy for the marginalized. Art is always the first target or almost the first target for authoritarians. So it's very important that artists fight back and we have to protect the those that have have had the guts to speak out.
- [42:16]
Stacey Abrams
Well, speaking out is something you've been doing a lot about the Paramount and Warner Brothers merger. And to your point, this is a linchpin for this authoritarian regime because they want to consolidate the information we get and the culture that we see. And I think you were saying it so beautifully. We so often dismiss the arts as a nice to have authoritarians understand that culture, it precedes politics, that what we think we are, what we think we're capable of, what we think we're entitled to, is often shaped by the stories told by the actors and actresses and writers and musicians and comedians. And so the Paramount, Warner Brothers merger, this mega consolidation that's I think at $111 billion, will fundamentally transform how we understand ourselves as Americans. So can you talk about what's at stake in this merger and why you have been such a leader on opposing the merger?
- [43:14]
Jane Fonda
Well, I mean, you said it. Free speech and the freedom of expression is going to be always undermined with major mergers. Authoritarians love mergers because it gives them more power. We have a letter now with over, I think over 3,000 people opposing the merger. It's a very broad coalition. One of the things about this particular merger that I'm the most worried about is bringing CNN into this merger where we have a woman named Barry Weiss who has not had news journalistic experience particularly, and she's been put in charge of cbs. And if the merger happens, it will also be cnn. Maybe CNN isn't what it was when Ted Turner, my ex husband, first created it, but CNN has not kowtowed the way the other networks have. And when you watch cnn, you're still getting independent news. You're still getting a whole lot of reality. What is really true. And this is critical. I mean, once we do away with independent news so that we're only getting what is approved by the authoritarian, you know, it's virtually over. We don't know what's real. We don't know what's not real anymore. We have to fight for independent news. So this would be gravely endangered by this merger with the bringing CNN into the Bari Weiss orbit.
- [45:03]
Stacey Abrams
You talked about activism and sort of who calls themselves an activist and who doesn't. And I think in case you're wondering if there's a Poll to be taken. You go very firmly in the activist category. In March, you headlined the no Kings rally in St. Paul, Minnesota. And as always, you urge protesters to take a stand. And we know that these rallies have brought out large numbers. But, you know, there's also a tendency to think that the rally itself is going to be the solution. But you also recognize that there are more direct actions that have to be taken. You were repeatedly arrested outside the U.S. capitol in 2019 as part of a climate change Protestant. What do you think are the most effective forms of activism today?
- [45:50]
Jane Fonda
Canceling subscriptions to Disney in reaction to the firing or the threatened firing of Kimmel? This is very important. Strikes with non cooperation. When you're again, this isn't Jane Fonda having expertise. This is what I have heard from the Eric Chenowitz and the Maria Rezas and you know, the people who really are experts on authoritarianism, non cooperation, even more than protests. What does that mean? It means not doing your job. It means not showing up. Now, that's very hard right now because people are, a whole lot of people don't have jobs. A whole lot of people have been, have lost their jobs for AI and Trump and all kinds of reasons. So it's a scary time, which is what they want. So standing up, economically, striking, not showing up. I learned on Rachel Maddow the other night, never miss her on a Monday night. I miss now, in hundreds of towns across this country, red states and blue states, Republicans and Democrats are alike, are standing up in front of their big warehouses and saying, absolutely not. We will not let you sell our warehouse to ICE for a detention center. And he has not been able, Trump has not been able to build these detention centers because people are not cooperating. This is brilliant. This is the perfect thing. And you know, on her show, they cut all around the country. It was so beautiful. This is what we need to do. We have to just not show up. We're not going to do it. We're not going to let you do this. And we're not going to. You know, during the Vietnam War, I was working in the military pillar. I happen to know now that more and more and more young men and women are filing for conscientious objectorship. So much so that these organizations need more staff because they can't keep up. This is a good sign. Non violent, non cooperation. And when it's creative, as it was in Portland, for example, with the inflatable donuts and frogs and all of that, you know, all the better. But, you know, Minneapolis has Really shown us a new way. Trump sent thugs, the ICE agents there, expecting to find marauding Somalis and criminals. But from the point of view of the people in the Twin Cities, it was like, they're trying to arrest my, my daughter's favorite teacher. They're trying to arrest my babysitter. They're, they're arresting the guy that repaired my roof and, you know, all their names. And I, you know, I interviewed some immigrants when I was there before the no Kings thing. And I interviewed a guy, he's a white dude, businessman, he's temporarily left his business, work with his wife. And he got. What he does is help his neighbors. And it's a new word that's been added to the activist lexicon. Neighboring, neighboring. A new form of resistance. Doesn't matter what you look like or what party you belong to or anything. Get to know your neighbor. Build community, help people. I'm on the board of Homeboy Industries, which is the most successful, you know, formerly incarcerated people are helped to heal. And it's the most successful one in the world. And when ICE was here in Los Angeles, they helped, they took the food carts that a lot of the people, they were in their apartments, afraid to come to work and use their food, their food trucks. And so Homeboy got the food truck, sold the food, took the money and gave it to the people in the apartments. This kind of thing, you know, doesn't take much except heart. We have to open our heart to our neighbors.
- [50:13]
Stacey Abrams
I think that's so beautiful. I was thinking when you were talking about how I came to activism and what you say is so critical because we so often have these very cinematic examples of what we think activism has to look like. And when it works best, it's when we solve a problem the way we know how to solve a problem. And we bring other people with us and we have these 10 steps to freedom and power. So we have the 10 steps of. To authoritarianism and autocracy. But we believe that you have to give people good things. Where the ten steps to freedom and power, and one is to share, another one is to be disruptive. And the most important one, I think, sometimes is to deny that non violent, non compliance, non cooperation, that counts. And so I think the way you're describing what happens is so important, but what you're also describing is the joy that comes from being connected, the joy that comes from being a part of a larger movement. And I want to talk about your work, your other work, which is shows like Grace and Frankie. That was a show that tackled a tough subject like aging in such a humorous and moving way. And part of what you're doing with the Committee for the First Amendment is reminding us that the arts are a way to push back, but they're also a way to uplift. And can you talk for a second about why it's so important to you for the arts to tell us a story about who we can be?
- [51:46]
Jane Fonda
It's kind of what the arts are for. People need to be seen. They need to know that somebody understands me, somebody understands what I'm going through. And one of the great ways of doing that is through culture, poetry, painting, writing, television, movies, plays, all of it can show people that they are seen. Did you see the film Hamnet?
- [52:23]
Stacey Abrams
Yes.
- [52:24]
Jane Fonda
You know, the end when Jessie Buckley is in that. The Shakespeare theater, watching Hamlet and realizing that she was seen and the child who died was seen and played this role. I mean, and then she could heal from that. People can heal when they feel understood and seen. And if it can be made funny, all the better.
- [53:01]
Stacey Abrams
Okay, so, Jane, one thing that we do on the show is give people homework, because that's, you know, that's how we get things to change. So your job is to give our audience one bit of homework to tell them how they can be fun and feel free and make change.
- [53:18]
Jane Fonda
Find out what organization is in your area that seems to represent you and your values and is doing the kind of things that you can see. And then join and bring friends with you. You'll make new friends, different kinds of friends. That's what happened to me. I had one whole set of friends that equaled hedonism. And when I became an activist and I went to these GI coffee houses, it was a whole new kind of people. I guess it's kind of like aa. You're used to hanging out with people who like to drink, and suddenly you meet a whole new kind of people. And so I just think, try to find those new people in the town where you live and do it by finding an organization. It's the best way. It's the easiest way. You know, whether. Whatever it is, you know, in Minnesota, In Minneapolis and St. Paul, churches and mosques and synagogues played a huge role in this. So maybe looking in your church or trying to organize your church to be like a sanctuary, that would be fun, too.
- [54:43]
Stacey Abrams
Well, it has been such a delight and a privilege to have you, and I'm going to add one more piece of homework for my audience. Your job this week is to be Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda. Thank you. So much for joining us today on Assembly Required.
- [54:57]
Jane Fonda
Thank you so much Stacy. I hope I see you again soon.
- [55:07]
Stacey Abrams
As always at Assembly Required, we give you actionable tools to help make a difference. First and foremost, we gotta be curious to learn more about Jane Fonda's extraordinary history of art and activism, check out the documentary Jane Fonda in Five Acts from hbo. Number two Solve Problems the Cal Lay ruling affecting the the Voting Rights act is designed to be the death knell to the inclusive, participatory, pluralistic democracy that we fight to achieve. But you can get involved in the fight against the consequences of the Supreme Court's most recent ruling. So check out Louisiana based organization Power Coalition for Equity and justice at powercoalition.org to learn more about volunteer article opportunities there and check out show notes for additional ways to get involved. This is only going to get harder, so let's stay involved. And number three, let's do some good. The ACLU continues to be a powerful resource in the fight for free speech. Visit aclu.org and check out their campaigns in support of free speech and expression, from joining the fight against classroom censorship to catching up on their know your rights educational efforts. And thank you to those of you who shared your questions and comments about the recent Supreme Court decision on voting rights via my substack, Assembly Notes, Cricket Media's Discord and other platforms. Please keep the questions and comments coming. Ones I couldn't get to today I will get to on our substack but tell others about us and add us to your feed. Let me know what episodes resonate and what you want to learn more about. Thank you to the thousands of you who continue to sign up for the 10 Steps campaign at 10stepscampaign.org if you haven't visited the page recently, we have new features to make it even easier to take back our freedom and power. And we'd love to have you join us in the Read Them Home initiative where we are trying to end family detention. Children should not be in prison camps, so help us read them home. That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Do good out there and I'll meet you here next week. Assembly Required is a crooked media production. Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts and our Associate producer is Farah Safari. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt De Groat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, Ben Hethcote and Priyanka Mantha for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long and me, Stacey Abra.