Richard Von Glahn (5:45)

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Alex.

Alex Wagner (5:48)

Let's just start at the top, which is, you know, what was your reaction when Missouri announced it was going to redistrict in an off year as a favor to Donald Trump?

Richard Von Glahn (6:00)

I mean, I think my initial reaction was the same as actually a lot of Republican legislators when Donald Trump suggested this, they said, no, we've already done redistricting. We do it once a year. We've never done a mid cycle thing. And so I think everyone was caught off guard by this demand from him. But then obviously, many of our legislators started folding pretty quickly. And so we knew we had a real problem on our hand and we had to get, get mobilizing.

Alex Wagner (6:35)

So you say initially, even there was bipartisan concern about it. Were you angry? Were you surprised? I mean, just as a citizen and an engaged person in Missouri politics, Like, what did it feel like?

Richard Von Glahn (6:47)

Yeah, I mean, we've never done this before, so it's sort of, you know, I'm engaged in our democracy, but you kind of feel like, you know what the rules are and you know, what the goalposts are, and you can battle within that framework and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but the rules don't fundamentally shift and alter. And so this sort of feels like you're in the middle of a board game with your kid or something, and then all of a sudden the rules are completely different and he automatically wins. And so, you know, it rightfully angered a lot of people.

Alex Wagner (7:22)

For people who haven't paid attention, this is all part of the broader effort to kind of claw out Republican seats. And if you could give me a sense of how the new maps compare to the original maps.

Richard Von Glahn (7:37)

Yeah. Missouri is actually already a gerrymandered state. We regularly, about 40% of our population votes for Democrats. About 60% vote for Republicans. We, our congressional representation is six Republicans and two Democrats. So 60% gets you 75 and 40% gets you 25. So we're already a gerrymandered state. This would take it from a 6:2 map to a 7:1 map and be one of the most extreme gerrymanders in the country.

Alex Wagner (8:08)

Wow. And, and like, you talk about Republicans initially having some trepidation about it. Did you, did anybody try and talk to them? I mean, what was it like to watch that, Watch people fold effectively?

Richard Von Glahn (8:19)

Yeah, I mean, we certainly did. And A lot of them just sort of shrugged their shoulders and said, well, you know, do you know what we're supposed to do against this man? I mean, we got no of Donald Trump called and was put on speakerphone and our governor said, you see how hard it is to say no to this guy. It was just really pretty pathetic, honestly. I will say there were. There was a bipartisan no vote in both the House and the Senate. One Republican senator, a man named Lincoln Huff, who is the chairman of the Budget Committee, voted no because he knows it is wrong. He lost his chairmanship to one of the most powerful committees that exists. So, you know, there are people of conscience out there. There are people who stood up. But of course, when he stood up for what he felt was right, he was punished. And that's the way that Donald Trump moves his agenda forward.

Alex Wagner (9:16)

So as these Republicans are folding in large part, except for one of them, you see the moment as an opportunity to start mobilizing. Can you talk a little bit about kind of how you came to that and what your group is doing?

Richard Von Glahn (9:28)

Yeah, we weren't entirely sure how people were going to react, you know, gerrymandering. Do people really focus about district lines? And so, you know, we sort of put out a call for some community meetings to see, well, what would happen if we just said, come to the space and let's talk about it. And with less than two weeks notice, we had overflowing capacity in every corner of the state. St. Louis, Kansas City, Springfield, Columbia, Republican led districts, Democratic led districts. It led to us in less than three weeks time, pulling off what reporters have called the largest rally in Jefferson City in the history of the state. Jefferson Singh being our state Capitol. Nearly 5,000 people descended on the state Capitol to say not to do this.

Alex Wagner (10:20)

So the idea is to try and stop the legislation that the governor signed by getting a ballot measure right for next November that would overturn the new maps. And in order to do that, you got to get a certain number of signatures, is that right?

Richard Von Glahn (10:35)

Yeah. It's part of our state constitution that if our legislature does passes a law or a bill that we don't like, we can gather. It's about 110,000 signatures in six of eight congressional districts. So geographic diversity, but if we can gather enough signatures in 90 days, we can put that law on hold until we get a chance to vote for it. It is not an easy undertaking, but it has been done 27 times in the history of our state, and we're going to be the 28th because people are Fired up. And we are gathering signatures at a historic pace.

Alex Wagner (11:13)

Yeah, I think the. It was. The Missouri Independent reported that of the 27 times a referendum has been placed on the ballot in Missouri, the voters have rejected the actions of the General assembly every single time, except for twice. So, like, 27. 27 efforts, 25 of which were successful. That's an incredible batting average. Tell me about when you say people are engaged, who is outraged? And just tell me sort of what the emotional tenor of those conversations are when you're talking to people about this.

Richard Von Glahn (11:45)

Yeah, we're knocking on doors. We're outside of libraries. We're at farmer's markets. I mean, we have people coming out and hugging us, you know, texting their neighbors, hey, the campaign's in the neighborhood. Make sure that you come out and sign. It's really an amazing response. I think the other thing that we get is we have people who will say to us, you know, I'm a Republican, and I know this is wrong, because what voters want is political accountability. They don't want to be used as political pawns in Donald Trump's game.

Alex Wagner (12:19)

Is it across age and demographic groups?

Richard Von Glahn (12:22)

Yeah, I think it is. It is across age. I mean, I saw a note yesterday. We had a woman sign on her 91st birthday. She was very excited as she said us knocking on our door was like her birthday gift to her. So that's always heartwarming to see. And we have college students. Just last week, I was talking to a group of college students who were telling me about how they don't really feel that we live in a democracy because their voices are not heard. They know gerrymandering, campaign finance, photo IDs. All of these things are designed to. To manipulate our democracy. And they were really excited to see that there's actually an opportunity to fight for an ideal. You know, we don't have to be cynical. We can be visionary. And so that's. That's where we're getting help from.

Alex Wagner (13:15)

The attorney general of your state has a press release calling your group basically an astroturf group founded by outside donors and saying that you guys are the ones who are actually trying to subvert the will of the state. I think the title is of the press release releases. Attorney General Hanaway Fights out of State Dark Money groups attempting to hijack Missouri's constitutional authority. Well, what. What was your response to that?

Richard Von Glahn (13:41)

Yeah, I mean, the majority of our donors are in Missouri. Our largest donor is in Missouri. I've lived in Missouri for 25 years. The over 150,000 people that have signed this petition are all Missourians, and, and everyone who's going to vote on this are going to be Missourians. So we're excited about that. We are excited to give Missourians the opportunity to decide what Missouri values are. And seemingly Katherine Hanaway is terrified about that and is going to try to distract and confuse people and say things that are just untrue. The Secretary of State has spread some mistruths about the signature collection process, and all those actions do is send us more volunteers because it displays their hypocrisy and their arrogance, and that's what voters are responding to.

Alex Wagner (14:36)

You said that the Secretary of State is trying to spread misinformation about the signatures. Can you explain that a little bit more?

Richard Von Glahn (14:43)

Yeah. He put out a press release saying that he was just arbitrarily not going to count the first hundred thousand signatures that had come in. He delayed approving the form that needed to be done, but ultimately he approved the very petition that every single one of our people have signed. He has said, yes, this is the correct form. This is what you should do. But then he just kind of arbitrarily said, I'm not going to count the first hundred thousand signatures of this. That's ridiculous. He also went as far to say, you know, if you circulated this ahead of time, this might be a crime. He has an administrative duty only. He has said, yeah, the form that you sent me, this is the correct form. This is what you should gather signatures on. But I'm not going to count the ones before I gave you my blessing. That's a ridiculous argument. He has no basis in law to make it. But you know, again, that they, they just try to confuse and intimidate people.

Alex Wagner (15:44)

You have a limited window in which you can gather these signatures. Right. It has to be 90 days. So the more that, you know, they can slow walk the start of that, the harder it makes it for you guys. Is that the, is that the idea?

Richard Von Glahn (15:53)

Yeah. We have a 90 day. We have to be done by December 11th. He took 32 days to approve the form. It should take him 15. And I should say the Missouri Supreme Court has stood on the side of voters on this. They have explicitly said that politicians do not have the right to interfere or impede what is again our constitutional right. Missourians have a constitutional right to the referendum. It's not a statutory thing. It is key to the fabric of our democracy. It has been in our state constitution since 1875. So we are not going to let the actions of a rogue Secretary of State diminish what is our constitutional right and heritage.

Alex Wagner (16:39)

What you're trying to do is unrig the maps. What Governor Newsom in California is doing is something different. He is saying we are going to fight fire with fire. We are going to have a citizen sanctioned. I'm not going to call it gerrymander, but we're going to redraw the maps in a way that advantage Democrats in order to counter the anti Democratic efforts in red states. It is a different. It is a different position and a different strategy. All part of the same battle, I guess, but it is getting into the. The mud pit, if you will. Do you have a feeling about that kind of strategy? Is it a good strategy but a dangerous precedent or. I mean, how do you think about it? They're parallel efforts happening at the same time?

Richard Von Glahn (17:24)

Yeah, I mean, I think you can't. When you're engaged in a fight to save democracy, you can't tie a hand behind your back. Now, I don't live in California. I've never lived in California. I'm pretty focused on Missouri and what Missourians want and how we want to respond to this. I think you look across the country, any polling that you do, people will say partisan gerrymandering is wrong. It is wrong. But at the same time, tying your hand behind your back and allowing one party to engage in it while the other just says, this is wrong, this is wrong. Yeah, is a good way to end up in a minority. And it's been made abundantly clear that the Republicans won't even respect the power of the minority in the House or Senate. And so, you know, you don't want to be such an absolutist that your values die. You know, but our values here are about political accountability and political accountability for politicians of all stripes.

Alex Wagner (18:36)

So you see it as the, the sort of end game of defeating anti democratic forces is going to require the embrace of different strategies. Yeah.

Richard Von Glahn (18:49)

And I think what California is looking to do, I think is a temporary measure to say we have to respond to this crisis and then we're going to get back to doing things the way that we need to be. But I think you look across the country, is the United States in a crisis about democracy? I think we are. I think we're the oldest democracy in the world, people would say. And I think we are facing some real existential challenges here over the next couple years, and this is part of it. And so we really need to fight for the soul of our nation.

Alex Wagner (19:30)

And it's a fight we know, there's such a sense of impending, well, not impending, but just doom and a sense of, I think, on the part of a lot of citizens, not just Democrats or progressives, but that there's so little to be done. And one of the things that's so extraordinary about what you're doing is that it's a real sign of hope. And like a real could be, as you say, could be the thing that thwarts this entire 2026, you know, steal that's being launched in daylight by the Trump administration. As you go about the work, can you tell me how you feel day to day and just what it's like in a state where you're going to be gerrymandered no matter what? But the question is, can you stave off the just injustice enough to get a national outcome that's fairer?

Richard Von Glahn (20:28)

Apathy, cynicism, these are the enemies. These are ultimately the things that anti democratic forces want. It's not just fighting over a map or different things, but it's when we begin to believe that democracy doesn't work or that we can't do it in the United States. But when I see rooms filled, you know, of people bringing in petitions, signatures of their neighbors, that really restores my hope. And I get to see that a lot these days. And the thing I left the class with last week, as I said, you know, there's the famous quote of MLK of the arc of the moral universe is long and bends towards justice, but the point is it doesn't magically bend. It is our job to actually bend the arc of the moral universe towards justice. We have agency in these fights and that's the thing that we have to remember. And when we engage that agency, we win. We win.

Alex Wagner (21:31)

Well, lucky you that you get to be in those rooms and lucky us that we as citizens of the same shared democracy get to benefit from your efforts. So Richard, thank you so much for giving, giving us a sense of what's happening down on the ground in Missouri where things are taking an interesting path. I appreciate your time.

Richard Von Glahn (21:52)

Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I encourage people across the country. If you want to follow our campaign, you can go to our website, which is just people, not politicians. Mo.org you know, ultimately we know this is Missourians fight, but any support we can get helps us keep printing petitions and getting pens and providing water and doing all of the pieces. So we, we appreciate everyone and we look forward to Missouri really being a model for the nation.

Alex Wagner (22:23)

Thanks, Richard.

Richard Von Glahn (22:24)

Thank.

Alex Wagner (22:28)

After the break, my conversation with David Plouffe Runaway country is brought to you by Fable. As someone who actually uses the things in my home every day, honestly, the spoons, the forks, the plates, the hairbrushes, the socks, the chairs, I really actually have gotten quite picky about what stays on my table in particular. And Fable makes modern minimalist homeware that's actually built to last. You can imagine beautiful ceramics that are dishwasher safe, they are non toxic, they are ethically made and they're surprisingly sturdy. They partner with artisans in Portugal to use recycled and locally sourced clay. So it's not just good looking, it's also good for the planet, which is a major bonus. Even takeout looks better on these plates. Honestly, it does put a sweet green on it. If you're hosting the season or just elevating your everyday meals, as we all hope you are, this is an easy way to make things feel more special. Fable's glassware is just as thoughtfully made. It's made in Japan and even though it's super thin and lightweight, it is ion toughened which means it's nearly twice as durable as typical glass. And it is also scratch resistant. I would like to make myself ion toughened, but it's only for Fable's glassware. It's non toxic dishwasher safe and it feels amazing in your hand. Head to fable.com crooked to learn more. New customers get 15% off with code CROOKED15. They've got fast shipping, great reviews and some really beautiful new collections which are out now. If you care about quality, sustainability and design, visit fable.com crooked use crooked15 for 15% off your first Fable order. This is one brand that walks the talk. This podcast is supported by the Defending Our Neighbors Fund. Across the country, immigrants are facing family separation, wrongful detention and deportation without due process or access to legal support. In 2024 alone, there were more than 2.5 million immigration court cases without legal representation. That means millions of people were denied the most basic protection we expect from our justice the right to a fair process. Powered by people like you, the Defending Our Neighbors Fund is providing access to life saving legal aid to families in crisis. But they urgently need your help to meet unprecedented demand. The government is pouring billions of taxpayer dollars into enforcement while slashing funding for legal aid and that makes your support more urgent than ever. Help defend your neighbors and keep families together. Donate now at defendingourneighbors.org fund. That's defendingourneighbors.org Fund. David, thank you for joining me. It's been a minute. I feel like it was maybe before the election, which is the last time we spoke.

David Plouffe (25:26)

A lot's happened in that year.

Alex Wagner (25:27)

A lot has happened, sir. Okay, let's start where we left our audience off, which is the fight that's happening over congressional districts. The timing's quite unusual, which is not a subtle part of the strategy on Donald Trump's part. But we were talking with Richard von Glahn, who's an activist and organizer in Missouri, about the work he's doing there to basically unwind a shockingly partisan gerrymander, all at Trump's behest, so that he can basically run up the score ahead of that anybody even takes a vote in the 2026 midterms. You know, for in the recent past, the fight against gerrymandering and the fight to have more fair House districts has been a Democratic fight. Right. And though this is citizen led, there's pretty clear partisan lines. In Missouri, it's progressives, Democrats, there's some Republicans, but they're fighting against a, almost uniformly Republican movement to, to basically give the state to Trump. And then in your state, in California, it's the opposite, where, you know, Proposition 50 is a basically a corrective measure, but nonetheless it embraces the partisan gerrymander. And I wonder, big picture, does the ethical inversion, we'll call it, does that, does it concern you?

David Plouffe (26:54)

I mean, these are unusual times. I don't think Donald Trump and his MAGA acolytes, you know, in the House and across the country, they're not doing this to improve their chances of winning the election. They're basically doing it to make the election irrelevant. The desperation is so clear. He's easy to read in that way. This is the thing he's most focused on, is making sure he can do everything he can to not have a Democratic House in 26. And so I think you kind of have to suspend the normal ways you think about things. They are trying to maximize their chances of doing everything they can to hold the House, kind of regardless of voter will. And listen, when you think about it, let's say it's a good year for Democrats if they're able to add 12, 18 seats. We've got to see what the Supreme Court does on voting rights. Even in a great year. That's going to make it hard, and they know that. And the nightmare scenario, of course, is Democrats actually legitimately win enough votes to win the House, but it's one or two or three seats. Do you think there's any way that Trump's not gonna get Mike Johnson to try and basically overrule the will of the voters. So given the import here, listen, I wished we live in a country and we might again. But my guess is it's gonna be decades, if not a generation, because Trump has his mini mes in place where we can talk about fair districts and neutral redistricting processes. But right now, we have to make sure that we have as fair election as possible. And I think that's hard. I think Democrats more than this brand of Republicans, this wasn't the case even 10 years ago. We believe in fairness and doing things right and things like independent redistricting, but at the end of the day, this is a math exercise, and they're trying to make the math impossible for Democrats to win the House. And so whether it's the effort in Missouri, which is heroic, or this ballot initiative in California, hopefully Illinois, Maryland, Virginia, other states will do what they can to stand up to what Trump's trying to do.

Alex Wagner (29:00)

I want to play you a clip from Jesse Waters on Fox. I'm not going to give him wizard of Oz status. I think that's reserved for Tucker Carlson. But Jesse Waters is a prominent voice in conservative politics, and this is how he's talking to his people.

David Plouffe (29:17)

This party is delirious, and the Republican Party has to take full advantage at this point. We have to kick the illegals out of the country, we have to kick them out of the census, and we have to gerrymander to the tilt.

Richard Von Glahn (29:33)

Why?

David Plouffe (29:34)

Because the Democratic Party cannot be trusted.

Richard Von Glahn (29:37)

To be the opposition party anymore.

David Plouffe (29:39)

They have to be have a permanent minority.

Richard Von Glahn (29:42)

It used to be like, you know what, they wanted to raise taxes, we wanted to cut them.

David Plouffe (29:46)

We were isolationists. They were a little bit out there.

Richard Von Glahn (29:49)

It's not like that anymore. This party's dangerous.

Alex Wagner (29:52)

Okay, gerrymander, folks. He'll make them the permanent minority party. So goes the autocracy. So goes fascism, I guess. I wonder, like, what. What does that mean for Democrats? Should there are sunset provisions in this Prop 50 bill? Right. In Virginia, I think they just released a plan. The proposed constitutional amendment, which would allow Democrats to gain some seats in Virginia, would give lawmakers emergency powers to create a new map. And then they could also, they could sort of reverse the map or reverse the changes only when other states offer to do the same. And then the powers to do this generally would expire at the end of the decade, in 2030. Right. So Democrats have built in what they see as kind of Democratic sort of normalcy to the degree that you can in something like this. But, like, what's the point when you have Republicans, conservatives out there saying, no, no, no, we never want you to have power again, and we're gonna do everything we can to stop you institutionally from gaining it.

David Plouffe (30:59)

Alex, this is super important. I mean, it's painful to say we should take what Jesse Watters says seriously, but it's exactly how Stephen Miller talks about the Democratic Party, increasingly how Mike Johnson talks about the Democratic Party. And so they're going to justify anything. So I think the big mistake here is to undersell what they're capable of doing. They're saying what they're going to do. They're going to take every step, every means necessary to try and guarantee permanent power. And so sunsetting provisions are okay as long as there's a trigger and you're not going to do it prematurely. So if we, at some point, if they put their weapons down, maybe we can put our weapons down, but that's not going to happen in the next three years. And again, I think what's hard, I think we all wish we lived in a world where it's January 20, 2029, a Democrat wins the White House. Let's pray that happens. Donald Trump gets on a plane to Mar a Lago and the Republican Party restores itself to the way it was a decade ago. That's simply not going to happen. This is who they are, it's who they're going to stay. My guess is at least through the next decade. So we have to prepare ourselves for that. There's no escape. It's painful when you think about it. It's not going to get easy. It's going to get harder. And so when Jesse Watters says that, when Stephen Miller says things like that, we can't assume ever that, well, they won't go to the most maximalist position. That's what they're going to do. And at the end of the day, they don't want to be held accountable to anything by anybody. Courts, press, voters. That's kind of the unifying, I think, line that runs through most of MAGA world is they just don't want accountability, regulations, judges, the media, and ultimately voters. And I think they're going to pursue that with every fiber of their being.

Alex Wagner (32:55)

So, I mean, what I'm hearing is pour one out for, like independent redistricting committees, like, it's over, basically. I mean, the idea that somehow Democrats will lay down their arms if and when Republicans lay down their arms, you yourself say that's not gonna come to pass. So I'm not. It's I'm not suggesting that. I guess what I'm hearing is those days are over and it's really too bad, but they're over. And so Arnold Schwarzenegger, who's been very vocal and opposed to Proposition 50 in California, he's the former governor, you know, when he says, let's play the clip, because it sounds like you kind of maybe even agree with him, if not in terms of his assessment, if not in his actual conclusion.

David Plouffe (33:40)

Anything that is temporary with government is permanent. So in the year 2032, when the Independent Redistricting commission is supposed to come back, they're going to say, wait a.

Richard Von Glahn (33:53)

Minute, there's still gerrymandering going on in.

David Plouffe (33:56)

Texas, there's still gerrymandering going on in Ohio.

Richard Von Glahn (33:59)

There's still gerrymandering going on in Florida. We have to continue with the gerrymandering.

David Plouffe (34:04)

This is what's going to happen. They will fight an exclusive excuse.

Alex Wagner (34:06)

First of all, have you ever done an interview from Gold's Gym? Because I think that's what. Where there's literally like weights being dropped on the ground. I don't know what that's all about.

David Plouffe (34:14)

It's amazing advance work. I don't know if that was his idea or somebody on his team, but a brilliant backdrop. You know, we live in a very visual world, Alex. So it was well done.

Alex Wagner (34:23)

Don't ever forget, he was a bodybuilder. David Pluff, I guess, like, so you Maybe agree, like 2030 is arbitrary. Like unless the Republican Party changes its stripes there. This, this is gonna, these, these lines are what they are. What happens in California, what happens in Virginia is the way it's gonna be maybe for a decade or longer.

Richard Von Glahn (34:44)

Right.

David Plouffe (34:45)

I hope it's not forever, but it's not gonna be anytime soon. He's right about that. So I just think that all the spawn of Trump are somehow not gonna change their stripes. There is gonna be an effort to do everything they can again I think to, as Jesse Waters said, make Democrats a permanent minority. And that's clearly not going to happen with appeal to the voters. They're staring right now at probably very difficult electoral situation in 26. So they're doing everything they can, at least at the House level, to make it harder. So listen, Democrats, for the most part, there were some Republicans too. Schwarzenegger obviously is a different type of Republican. But you know, we were the party that led the effort in most places for independent redistricting commissions, for computer drawn maps for getting the politicians out of it. So that's kind of our instinct, we think that's right. So I think when the sky is clear, if it ever does clear, we can go back to that. But for now, I would just assume we're kind of at a permanent war state where you've got an opposition that you need to assume, get in a dark room and draw up everything they could do, even if it kind of defies your view of what's possible in America to maintain power. And that's what they're going to do. And I think it's always a hard exercise to understand in the United States of America. Our institutions, our Constitution are a lot more fragile than I think many of us thought. But when you have a strong man who's basically backed up by an entire party, so half the country who's willing to basically tear down everything to make sure they stay in power, you have to act accordingly. And there'll be no medals or prizes for saying, well, they're doing that, but we're not going to go that far. We have to stop that. And I think most Democrats understand that now. I think the reaction has been appropriate, but we need to see it across the board because at the end of the day, this is a math exercise. This very well could come down to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 house seats. So everything that's happening in each of these states is critical.

Alex Wagner (36:53)

I guess we like that's. It seems like the redistricting tomfoolery, I keep using these antiquated terms like somehow that'll make it like less awful. But what Trump's trying to do with the congressional districts in the drawing the lines is one plank in his strategy to, you know, enforce anti Democratic tactics to retain power and control of the legislative branch. But then, you know, we've been offered in the, like last few days windows into other ways he might do that. I mean, first of all, there's the standoff happening in Congress where the House is not coming back into session and the newly elected Democrat in Arizona, the daughter of Raul Grijalva, cannot get seated because her vote will be critical in without getting too into the weeds airing out the Epstein files. But you could imagine a scenario where Republicans adopt the very same playbook if it's a very narrow House majority and they say, well, we're just not going to seat the Democrats.

David Plouffe (37:48)

I mean, let's say the election unfolds next November and the result would be 220 Democrats. So they win the House. There's no way that Mike Johnson is not going to suggest that the two or three wins that Put us over the top, had fraud, and they're going to try and prevent that outcome from happening. So what's scary about that is you're basically then counting on Amy Coney Barron and Brett Kavanaugh and John Roberts to save.

Alex Wagner (38:21)

Oh, cool. No, they're dependable.

David Plouffe (38:22)

Well, maybe on this we'll see. But that's what's going to happen. Again, the notion that they wouldn't be do that. And listen, I think that to the extent there's. And there's always some degree of strategy, it can just seem like a blizzard of crazy tactics with Trump. But there's a strategy here which is, yes, try and maintain control of the House, but if they don't make it close enough so they can try and overrule the will of the voters. So this is what they are going to do. There's just no way. It's not going to happen. Maybe if Democrats are at 224 or 225 or 20, 227, there'll be a view that that's too much. But by the way, their majority right now is incredibly narrow. So if you just were to flip it. So if the same thing were to happen, Johnson, who's presiding over a super slim majority now, if the Democrats basically win enough seats to flip that, they're going to say no, they're going to say that this race in California that was won by a thousand votes, or this one in Arizona by 1500 or this one in Pennsylvania by 800, we're not going to seat this person. So, you know, that's what's going to happen, and that's why you really have to think about this mathematically. So I understand and respect what some of the state legislators in Illinois are saying about wanting to maintain some seats that are predominantly African American. But, you know, first of all, that's a state where Barack Obama, Carol Moseley Braun have won statewide, Lauren Underwood's one in competitive places. So I think African American, American candidates can win everywhere, but we can't have a single state where they take an action and we don't have a reaction. And even if every Democratic controlled state does what they can do to maximize the seats, we're going to be at a deficit, and that's before you get the Supreme Court. So we're already running more uphill than we should. So, again, this is going to come down. Every district matters, every seat matters, and both in terms of control, but also in terms of hopefully giving us a cushion so they can't try and deny Victors their rightful place in the House of Representatives.

Alex Wagner (40:23)

More of my conversation with David Plouffe right after this break. Runaway country is brought to you by Zebiotics. Pre Alcohol. I know we have all tried ways to be a functional adult after a night of drinks. I mean, I'm always trying to be a functional adult and often failing. But I now have found something that actually works. It is a pre alcohol probiotic from Zebiotics. Zebiotics Pre alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first, first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut, and it is a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that is to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. So just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I gotta say, I was at an undisclosed location and had one drink that I probably shouldn't have had, and then I had another one and I was like, you know what? I need my Zebiotics. And I didn't take them. And I felt markedly more rough the next day, which has now put me in the zone of packing lipstick and Zebiotics when I go out at night. That's the kind of prep I'm doing, guys. That's how I'm looking out for myself, because I know this stuff actually works. Makes me feel a lot better. Just like lipstick. Okay, fall is here, and that means it's sweater weather. And it's time to enjoy cooler weather and some drinks with friends. Whether you're enjoying a glass of wine at a fall festival or a spooky cocktail at a Halloween party, I do love a spooky cocktail. Do not forget to drink a pre alcohol before drinking. You'll be able to celebrate and still feel great the next day when you wake up. Go to zebiotics.comalex to learn more and to get 15% off your first order. When you use Alex at checkout, Zebiotics is backed with a 100% money back guarantee. So if you are unsatisfied for any reason, they will refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zebiotics.com Alex and use the code Alex at checkout for 15% off. Thank you, ZBiotics, for sponsoring this episode and for our good times. Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because MultiCare has been here guided by a single purpose, making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@mycare.org there's been a suggestion on the part of the minority leader, Hakeem Jeffries, that Illinois needs to get on board the California and Virginia train and fight fire with fire, if you will, redistrict, give Democrats more seats. And as you mentioned, there's some reluctance on the part of some Democrats. And that brings to the fore the question of, like, how actually prepared you think the Democratic Party is to fight this new warfare. Because you're not talking about. I mean, there is a world in which you would have suggested, oh, the speaker of the House isn't gonna seat Democrats if it, if it hands a majority. And that would've been unthinkable. I mean, like John Boehner just being like, fuck, no, not, not this, not, not this year. Or imagine it in the inverse, which was Nancy Pelosi saying, yeah, no, I'm sorry, I'm holding onto the gavel. But now not only are you saying, is it possible, you're like, it's probable. There's no way Johnson doesn't try and deny Democrats their rightful majority. So are you confident in the party right now? I guess, is what I would ask.

David Plouffe (44:18)

I think you're seeing really aggressive efforts at the state level. Listen, I think it's fair to say, I'm sure everyone was surprised, maybe we shouldn't have been by the intensity with which Trump is driving this redistricting effort. I mean, it's mid decade.

Alex Wagner (44:35)

Yeah.

David Plouffe (44:35)

And they're basically trying to tear up all the maps mid decade for no other reason than to make it hard to impossible for Democrats to win. So I think that the. I think going forward, first of all, we need to have our list, you know, is another good story in the Atlantic, I think this week about all the things they could do to make it harder in 26 or 28. We need to. First of all, let's figure out what we can do to advantage ourselves. Let's figure out all the things they could do. I mean, this is just war gaming. And again, I think the key thing with war gaming is right now, you can never say, well, they wouldn't do that. Just get that out of your vocabulary. Just assume they would do it. Even though it would been impossible to consider 10 or 15 years ago and figure out what can we do. Some of that is, you know, blowing the whistle early to force some of them to say, well, we won't do that. I mean, it's always easier to destroy in the dark than in the light. So I think, you know, everybody should be socializing what they both can do and will likely do to maybe get them to back off a little bit, as unlikely as that is, and then be prepared for it. So I just think it's, it's really hard, I mean, to think through like, okay, we have a leader and most of a party that seems to be hell bent on turning us either into an autocracy or autocracy light.

Alex Wagner (46:03)

I don't know if there's that much that's light about it.

David Plouffe (46:05)

Yeah. So, you know, I think at the end of the day, you know, you have to respond accordingly. And to me, there's all this stuff that's so important legally. Redistricting, war, gaming out what they could do, being smarter about what we can do. But the real salvation here for the country and the Democratic Party will for us to be stronger in more places so we can compete in more places. I mean, politics at the end of the day, you're trying to maximize your opponent's weakness in a campaign and maximize your strength. I think there's more to do to maximize the Republican weakness, particularly as it relates to these House members who they need to own everything that's happening. High energy prices, health care premiums, exploding job loss, all the things, you know, the deportations which are becoming increasingly unpopular right now, that's on Trump. We need to put it on these House Republicans. But the Democratic Party has to get vastly stronger in terms of an appealing alternative. Alternative. If we do that, then we can have more comfortable chance to win and hold the House for periods of time, win and hold the Senate, win the presidency. Listen, is there any question that from 28 to 40, you know, if the Democrats don't win the Senate and the presidency, like the court could be 8:1. Like this is super scary stuff, right. So I think that's what makes it so complicated. There's the rules and all the things that Republicans are doing again that we probably wouldn't have imagined at most times in our country's history. They're doing, they're going to do more. We need to be prepared for that. But if we can become a powerful vote getting series of candidates, you know, it's more important to candidates than the party, then we're going to be okay. But that's what makes it so scary. The Senate already is structurally challenging for us. Like, it's impossible to think about Democrats now getting above 52, probably until we get more competitive in more places. And as you know, the Electoral College is hard now, and in 2032, we lose five or six seats. So it gets a lot harder in the House, particularly with these challenges. So. So we're kind of running in a. In a mu. On a muddy track already. So let's do all we can to make sure it doesn't get muddier and stand up to these efforts, which, again, I think a lot of the states are doing a good job of.

Alex Wagner (48:22)

But.

David Plouffe (48:22)

But then the big, I think thing here, Alex, is we just have to become a safer and more exciting and palatable place for more voters. And that's not where we are right now. And I get that people say, don't ever criticize Democrats, and they've. Listen, the Republicans are obviously trying to destroy the country, most of them. We get that we need to critique that, make an argument. But just like sports, there's two teams, and the stronger your team is, you know, the better you're gonna be able to exploit your opponent's weakness. And I think that's what we have to get back to.

Alex Wagner (48:55)

Right? It's like, well, but they're also cheating at the same time.

David Plouffe (48:58)

Right?

Alex Wagner (48:59)

It's like, I guess I wonder how much you think the fatalism. Because there is. This week, for example, Steve Bannon was out there saying, trump will be president in 2028. We have a plan. We are going to act on it. Let's listen to the clip first.

David Plouffe (49:11)

Well, he's gonna get a third term, so Trump.

Richard Von Glahn (49:14)

28. Trump is gonna be president.

David Plouffe (49:15)

28.

Richard Von Glahn (49:16)

And people just ought to get accommodated with that.

David Plouffe (49:18)

So what about the 22nd and Amendment? There's many different alternatives. At the appropriate time, we'll lay out what the plan is. But there's a plan, and President Trump will be the president in 28.

Alex Wagner (49:28)

I mean, okay, I just still. First of all, he's still wearing two shirts. I can't. I mean, the whole thing, all of it, it's. There is this. There is a desire, I think, or a cautionary feeling on the part of some Democrats to not play too much into the hand of this absolutely unconstitutional nonsense. Right. Um, Mike Johnson is out there. Actually, Mike Johnson did say. Mike Johnson, AKA the ventriloquist puppet, did suggest that he still understands that we have the Constitution as our guiding light. This is what Johnson said this week in response to the notion that Trump was going to be president forever.

David Plouffe (50:03)

I think the president knows, and he and I have talked about the constrictions of the Constitution as much as so many the American people lament that. I don't see a way to amend the Constitution because It takes about 10 years to do that, as you all know.

Alex Wagner (50:15)

You're saying everything's on the table. It doesn't really matter what Mike Johnson says, which is something we've all learned the hard way. It's ultimately what Trump wants to do, and the rest of the party will bend the knee. But how much should Democrats, you talked about blowing the whistle loudly and early. How much do you have to calibrate that desire to say, okay, this is the doom that awaits us as a country, but. But not make people feel fatalistic about the future and still get engaged and feel like the process matters, their engagement and involvement matter, that the process can be unrigged or is not fully broken?

David Plouffe (50:54)

Well, I think when I think about the things we need to prepare for, it's obviously this redistricting warfare that's going on, that there's monitors and troops at polling locations, there's refusing to certify election winners. We need to be prepared for all that in 26. This point about Trump running for a third term, I'm much more interested in making sure we prosecute the case against Trump, but most importantly, the House and Senate Republicans who've stood by and done nothing, as he has made inflation worse, as he's made healthcare costs explode, energy costs explode, all the grifting that's happening to enrich his family while the average American family is paying a lot more, and they're pissed. I mean, you see Trump's approval rating. So I wouldn't really talk about Trump running for a third term now or in 26 or until it's a real threat. Listen, at the end of the day, you never underestimate Trump electorally. But he also, I think, mused about this and said he thinks it would be too cute. And I think he's probably right about that, because I assume what Bannon's talking about is this notion that Trump could run as the VP for Vance, and then they do a switcheroo, and, you know, there's some like they do in Russia right away, 46% of the country would be fine with that, but that's not 50. That's not what you need to get 270 electoral votes. So I don't think that's a particularly strong move. So that's one I would say it may. It may happen, but it's sequentially down the road. So let's like, not so focus on 24. So focus on the stuff that could really affect the outcomes of the 26 election, where the way to think about it is there will be enough voters potentially to switch control of the House, both as a referendum on those House Republicans who've been basically like bowls of jello as it relates to Trump and Trump himself. And that will of the voters is not going to be recognized. So that's the real threat as it relates to 26 from, like a rule standpoint and a preparation standpoint. But again, you know, none of this will matter if we sail on the 26 really strong. And there's a lot of work to do to make sure that we are, again, maximizing their weakness and maximizing our strength. So let's. That's something in our control, by the way. I think all this stuff, redistricting and all the, you know, malfeasance that they're going to undertake as it relates to 26, we have to fight that tooth and nail really smartly with resources and be smart, and we're going to win some of that and some of that. We're not going to get the outcome we want. But what we can control is the campaign we put in front of people in 26.

Alex Wagner (53:36)

What I'm hearing is take the gloves off, sharpen the knives, I mean, you know, metaphorically speaking, and get ready for a street fight that could last decades, that this is a Republican Party that is a political party kind of in name only and just represents anti Democratic force that is out there for money and power and has been corrupted by Trump and, you know, arguably other actors in recent years.

David Plouffe (54:03)

Right. I mean, I think, Alex, I mean, my Hope is maybe 10 years from now, 12 years from now, that's not the case. But you think about, okay, 2028, let's assume Steve Bannon is talking out of his ass, which I think he is on this one, and there's a Republican primary. I mean, what Vance, others, you know, they're going to talk about the Democrats. I mean, listen, what is, what does the White House say? Democrats are evil. You know, we exist to basically bring immigrants in from other countries to rig elections. Like, I've been a part of the Democratic Party for decades. That's a conversation we've never had anywhere. Right. So basically they are, and basically have no regard for rules if they are inconvenient to them. Like, this is the hard thing. I struggle with it. Trump eventually leaves, but they all stay. And he has shown them the way. It's not like there's going to be some moment in 2028 or 2030 where they say, you know what, we need to basically lay off a little bit. We're not going to go after institutions, we're not going to treat half the country like they are evil and out to destroy the country. So I just think we're going to be at this state of vigilance for a long time and I don't know when the sky will clear, but I think we have to understand that in my view and, and act accordingly. And that means you're kind of trapped. You're in this place where so many things we thought would never happen in this country are happening and it's not going to get better. When he exits the stage, the sort.

Alex Wagner (55:47)

Of middle ground is basically gone and it's just an all out fight pro democracy versus fascism, I guess, or autocracy on the other side. And you know, that's a change, that's a changed political system and that requires a changed Democratic Party because as you're saying, the Republicans have already metamorphosized and now it's up to Democrats to respond accordingly.

David Plouffe (56:12)

Well, you know, what did Michael Corleone say to, you know, Tom Hagen, you know, you're a good peacetime kids consigliere. I need a wartime consigliere essentially. And I think that's we're on that's the case here.

Alex Wagner (56:28)

Or shutting the government down.

David Plouffe (56:29)

Or shutting the government down. Right. And showing no interest. I mean, Johnson hasn't had his members in, in, in months and Trump seems like he could care less. So you know, I do think that, you know, it will break at some point, but it's not going to break soon. I mean, I just think that, that for the next three years this is what we're dealing with. But it's not going to get better when he leaves. This is going to be this. There is no. The Republican Party is maga and that'll be the case for several more election cycles at a minimum. So I just think we have to understand that. But we have to understand that there's, there's a sense that the Democratic Party I think has been too disconnected from everyday people and quite frankly that we're weak. So that's the other benefit of this. I would do it even if there wasn't a benefit is, you know, let's have spines of st steal and let's stand up to these folks who are trying to tear down our country and trying to make sure that they stay in power no matter what the voters say. I mean, that's as noble of effort as possible. So if you can't be strong and rigid on that and understand that they're going to take this places that we were never comfortable with as a country previously, but that's what they're going to do. So what we can't do is simply criticize them. We have to respond and to where we started this is we have to do some things that might be inconsistent with the world we'd like to live in. By the way, is there any chance in this MAGA world, let's say the Democrats win the White House in 28, but we don't have the Senate. You think they're going to confirm a Supreme Court justice? You know, if Thomas or, you know, Alito were to step down? They're not like we have to understand that's where we are today. We have to regain power and hold it in order to set some of this stuff right.

Alex Wagner (58:18)

Wartime consigliere David Plouffe. We are happy to have your very dark assessments and prognostications, but it's, you know, what do they call it? Straight talk, real talk?

David Plouffe (58:31)

I hope I'm wrong.

Alex Wagner (58:33)

I mean, I don't know the way things are going. Buddy, you sound right to me. Thank you for taking time to, you know, help us understand the stakes, David. I really appreciate it.

David Plouffe (58:44)

Always good to talk to you. Alex.

Alex Wagner (58:48)

Before we go, I want to hear from you. Have you been impacted directly by the Trump administration and or its policies? Maybe you've experienced changes to your job or to your healthcare or at your kids school. If so, I want to hear it all. Whether these policies have impacted you for better or for worse. So send us an email or a one minute voice note@runawaycountryrooked.com and we may be in touch to feature your story. And thank you to everyone who has written in already. Last but not least, don't forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel. Runaway country with Alex Wagner. Runaway country is a crooked meat. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkovski. Our producer is Emma Illich Frank. Production support from Megan Larson and Lacey Roberts. The show is mixed and edited by Charlotte Landis. Ben Hethcote is our video producer and Matt De Groat is our head of production. Audio support comes from Kyle Seglin. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. Katie Long is our executive producer of development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Score holiday gifts. Everyone wants for way less at your Nordstrom Rack store. Save on Ugg, Nike, Rag and Bone, Vince Frame, Kurt Geiger, London and more.

David Plouffe (60:35)

Because there's always something new.

Alex Wagner (60:36)

I'm giving all the gifts this year with that extra 5% off when I use my Nordstrom credit card. Santa who join the Nordy Club at Nordstrom Rack to unlock our best deals. It's easy. Big gifts, big perks. That's why you rack.

David Plouffe (60:52)

Hataday presents.

Alex Wagner (60:53)

In the red corner, the undisputed, undefeated weed whacker guy. Champion of hurling grass and pollen everywhere. And in the blue corner, the challenger.

Richard Von Glahn (61:05)

Extra strength Hataday eye drops that work.

Alex Wagner (61:09)

All day to prevent the release of histamines that cause itchy allergy eyes. And the winner by knockout is Pataday.

David Plouffe (61:19)

Pataday. Bring it on.