GOP Gerrymanders Are Burning Down the House

Summary

Podcast Summary: Runaway Country with Alex Wagner

Episode: GOP Gerrymanders Are Burning Down the House
Date: May 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Runaway Country with Alex Wagner tackles the seismic shifts underway in American democracy due to recent Supreme Court decisions that have dismantled vital elements of the Voting Rights Act, opening a floodgate for GOP-led gerrymanders across the South and beyond. Wagner probes the tactical, legal, and moral fallout: from the mechanics of controversial redistricting in states like Virginia, Louisiana, and New York to the existential threat to pluralism and representation. Featuring in-depth conversations with Rep. Suhas Subramanian (VA–10), NY State Senator Mike Gianaris, and preeminent voting rights organizer Stacey Abrams, the episode asks: When the rules are burning, how far should Democrats go—and at what cost?

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Supreme Court’s Calais Decision and Open Season on Gerrymandering ([01:42]-[06:37], [36:14]-[43:36])

• Background: The conservative-majority Supreme Court rules that Louisiana’s majority-black district is an unconstitutional racial gerrymander—a move Alex describes as “effectively gutting the Voting Rights Act” and Section 2 in particular, which protected representation for voters of color.
• Ramifications: Red states (LA, AL, SC, TN, FL) are swiftly reverting to or enacting maps that dilute minority representation, carving up districts historically anchored by Black or Brown voters for partisan gain.
• Alex Wagner: “Every day since the conservatives on the court decided this case has basically been open season in the red states down south where the VRA was doing its most essential work.” ([02:28])
• Political Stakes: GOP leaders believe they could gain as many as 14 House seats through these changes, while Democratic attempts at balancing the scales (Virginia, California, Utah) face their own setbacks through state court rulings.
• Democratic Dilemma: “How do Democrats fight fire with fire without burning down the whole House?” ([06:37])

2. The View from Virginia: Judicial Technicalities and Political Warfare

Guest: Rep. Suhas Subramanian, VA-10 ([08:29]-[18:29], [21:09]-[25:55])

• Virginia Supreme Court Ruling: Subramanian explains how the court used a technicality—timing of early voting vs. general election day—to overturn a voter-approved redistricting amendment.
  • “It was absolutely mind boggling that they basically redefined the word election.” ([09:58])
  • “The judiciary is compromised. It’s a political body and we need to treat them as such.” ([08:29])
• Extreme Measures Discussed: Lowering the retirement age for VA Supreme Court justices to replace them and push the original, fair maps back through.
  • “It’s a pretty extreme scenario. But if that’s the only way to move this forward...I’m open to any suggestions because we know Republicans would do it.” ([15:09])
• Democratic Response: Democrats need to stop being “victims” and pursue every legal (even radical) avenue, recognizing the GOP’s years-long strategy to stack courts.
• Consequences and Mobilization: The court’s decision may backfire by fueling Democratic turnout. “People are already outraged. People are already fired up.” ([23:56])

3. The New York Front: How Hard Should Democrats Push?

Guest: NY State Senator Mike Gianaris ([26:50]-[33:32])

• Long-Game Redistricting: New York lawmakers debate whether to make maps more competitive for Democrats even if it means rethinking formerly sacrosanct VRA principles.
  • “Be careful what you wish for if you go down that road. You draw a district that dilutes the minority power...you’re looking at kind of a Fetterman or a Manchin situation.” ([27:30])
• Protecting Minority Representation: Gianaris emphasizes New York can win more seats without abandoning minority-empowering districts: “We don’t have to tear apart Voting Rights act principles in order to get more Democrats elected.” ([27:30])
• National Solution Needed: The absence of federal standards on independent commissions means GOP-controlled states gerrymander while blue states tie their own hands.
  • “This is a problem that if it doesn’t have a national solution, we need to be able to fight fire with fire.” ([31:55])

4. Big Picture: Losing the Plot on Democracy

Guest: Stacey Abrams, voting rights activist, host of Assembly Required ([36:14]-[65:32])

• Competitive Authoritarianism, Not Just Partisanship:
  • “We are living in a competitive, authoritarian nation. They use democratic institutions...to dismantle democracy’s ends.” ([36:36])
  • The new battleground is the systematic whittling away of minority power under race-neutral, legalistic pretexts.
• Supreme Court Complicity:
  • Alex: “This is a court that loves to be deliberative when it suits partisan gains and loves to fast track...in service...of competitive authoritarianism.” ([38:25])
  • Stacey: “We have watched the Supreme Court be complicit in dismantling democracy, dismantling accountability, and dismantling freedoms. That’s nothing but authoritarianism.” ([41:34])
• Should Dems Invite the Supreme Court into VA?
  • Abrams urges caution: “You want the relief that is available, but at what cost?...The Danger though, is the question that we’re asking.” ([43:36])
  • Warns against false equivalence: “The arsonists can’t claim to be the same thing as the firefighters.” ([43:36])
• Will These Tactics Backfire on Republicans?
  • Structural changes are about more than short-term wins—they lock in advantages at the local and state level, affecting everything from Congress to school boards.
  • “If you break it in 26, that means it’s broken in 28…you make sure that we don’t have a census that works in 2030...That’s the end game.” ([52:01])
• The Chessboard Metaphor:
  • “They play a whole board strategy...We get really fascinated by the bishop and the queen...but they let their pawns become queens on the other end of the table.” ([56:04])
• On Mobilization and Hope:
  • Outrage is not enough: “Outrage is our invitation to action. There are three things we can do: start conversations locally...expand voting rights in blue states...and keep going to court.” ([59:33])
  • “You can't sacrifice me to save me...we cannot allow any communities of color to be sacrificed on the altar of eventual victory.” ([61:22])
• Optimism for the Future:
  • “If we do this right…in a decade, we could have the nation…If we fix it in the south, we fix it for everybody. So don’t leave us behind because we’ve been waiting for you and we’re ready to work.” ([64:54])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The judiciary is compromised. It’s a political body and we need to treat them as such.”
  — Suhas Subramanian ([08:29])

• “We are living in a competitive, authoritarian nation. They use democracy’s rules to dismantle democracy’s ends.”
  — Stacey Abrams ([36:36])

• “The arsonists can’t claim to be the same thing as the firefighters.”
  — Stacey Abrams ([43:36])

• “Be careful what you wish for if you go down that road...you end up with candidates elected...but you’re looking at a Fetterman or a Manchin situation where it’s not the kind of Democrats that help you govern effectively.”
  — Mike Gianaris ([27:30])

• “If you break it in 26, that means it’s broken in 28...then you game the system in 28...That’s the end game.”
  — Stacey Abrams ([52:01])

• “You can't sacrifice me to save me. And it is lazy, it is disingenuous, it is not as bad, but it is pretty problematic...we are not sacrificial lambs anymore…figure it out.”
  — Stacey Abrams ([61:22])

• “If we fix it in the south, we fix it for everybody. So don’t leave us behind because we’ve been waiting for you and we’re ready to work.”
  — Stacey Abrams ([64:54])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:42]: Alex Wagner opens on the Supreme Court’s Calais decision and its impact on voting rights.
• [08:29]: Interview with Rep. Suhas Subramanian (Virginia) on VA Supreme Court blocking voter-approved maps.
• [15:09]: Discussion of extreme measures—removing justices, pushing every legal avenue.
• [21:09]: Can Democrats win at the Roberts Supreme Court?
• [26:50]: Interview with NY Sen. Mike Gianaris on New York’s redistricting strategy and the tension between power and principle.
• [36:14]: Deep dive with Stacey Abrams on authoritarianism, the Supreme Court, and the broader stakes for democracy.
• [43:36]: Should Democrats seek federal relief? Danger of SCOTUS involvement.
• [52:01]: Abrams on the structural endgame of GOP strategy.
• [56:04]: Chessboard metaphor—why every part of the system is under attack.
• [57:48]: Can outrage be mobilized into effective resistance?
• [61:22]: Why sacrificing communities of color in redistricting is unacceptable.

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Episode Takeaways

• The Supreme Court and aligned state courts are greenlighting a wave of gerrymanders that are undoing decades of voting rights protections, particularly for Black and Brown communities.
• Democrats are wrestling with whether to fight “fire with fire” via aggressive map-drawing in blue states, balanced against the risk of sacrificing minority representation and the party’s own values.
• This isn’t merely partisan gamesmanship—the stakes are as high as the future of American democracy versus creeping competitive authoritarianism.
• The episode closes with Stacey Abrams’ call for organizing, legislative, and litigation-based resistance, and a message not to abandon the South: “If we fix it here, we fix it for everybody.”

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This episode is essential listening for anyone seeking to understand the true threats facing American democracy in 2026—and the difficult choices confronting those who would defend it.

Transcript

[Alex Wagner]

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[Alex Wagner]

Hi everyone. If you weren't already thinking about this year's midterm elections, well, it is a really good time to start because there have been some massive developments in just the last few days. Two weeks ago, conservatives on the Supreme Court ruled 6:3 of course that a majority black congressional district in Louisiana was an unconstitutional racial gerrymander, that white voters in that district were effectively being disenfranchised. Yes, really. And the ramifications of this are very hard to overstate. The case. Louisiana vs. Calais effectively gutted the Voting Rights act, specifically Section 2 that allowed for the creation of majority minority districts so that voters of color people with an actual history of voter disenfranchisement here in the US would not have Their votes diluted so that voters of color could effectively have a seat at the table. No longer. Every day since the conservatives on the court decided this case has basically been open season in the red states down south where the VRA was doing its most essential work work. Republican leaders are now scrambling to redraw maps in their favor. And that basically means cracking up minority districts and diluting the power of those black and brown voters by spreading them into other redder districts, all with the goal of cleaving off as many congressional seats from Democrats as possible right before the midterms. And when I say open season, I mean open season. Louisiana Republicans fresh off that court victory are now back to using their old racist maps, ones that eliminate one of the two majority black districts in the state. Here's what the Louisiana governor had to say about that.

[Stacey Abrams]

Would it concern you if there were no African American representatives from Louisiana in Congress?

[VRBO Advertiser]

That's a decision that the legislature is going to make, but I don't believe that if that we have to go and draw a district that guarantees us a minority representation.

[Alex Wagner]

On Monday, Alabama Republicans dug up their old gerrymandered map from 2023, which had been blocked on racial grounds until the Supreme Court.

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[Alex Wagner]

injunction on the old racist map. As of this recording, Politico is reporting that Governor Henry McMaster of South Carolina is planning on calling a special session of the legislature to draw new maps, which would very likely cost 17 term Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn his seat. Clyburn is one of the most powerful Democratic leaders in Congress and he is the only black congressman, the only Democrat in the state. And last week, both Tennessee and Florida approved new maps that surprise redistribute minority communities into whiter ones. When you look at what is happening in the south thanks to the Supreme Court, along with the redistricting fever that hit Texas, Missouri, Ohio and North Carolina earlier this year, it sure looks like Republicans have gamed the system to ensure victory in November. And no one is happier about that than the man who has put Republicans on a path to lose, Donald Trump. Here he is reacting to the court's decision on April 29.

[Donald Trump]

When did it come out, just now?

[Alex Wagner]

No, it came out this morning. But basically very much narrows the Voting

[Donald Trump]

Rights act, which he considered a win for Republicans.

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I love it.

[Donald Trump]

Republican governors.

[Alex Wagner]

Republican governors. What about early voting begins Saturday there, for instance, should they redraw the map

[Stacey Abrams]

in the next couple?

[Donald Trump]

I would, I mean, yeah, I would say generally I would think that they would want to do it Some, some are greatly helped and some, you know, it didn't make much difference.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, the GOP believes it can gain as many as 14 seats from these new House maps. I mean, yeah, maybe at the end of the last week, Virginia Democrats were dealt a massive blow in their efforts to balance the scales when their state Supreme Court invalidated new voter approved maps that would have given Democrats as many as four new seats in the Old Dominion. That Virginia effort was a big deal for Democrats who have successfully redistricted parts of California and Utah, potentially yielding six new seats. On its face, without Virginia, the math is not great. Nor is the broader attack on racial justice. And so now Democrats are are being forced to regroup and rethink their strategy. If you listen to Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, it sounds like the party is ready to go pretty far. Here is Jeffries on Midas Touch.

[McDonald's Advertiser]

It's incredible to me that they start this gerrymandering battle and they're upset right now that Democrats are finishing it like we said we were going to do from the very beginning. And we are going to keep our foot on the gas pedal and continue to apply maximum pressure to these people until we break their gerrymandering scheme once and for all.

[Alex Wagner]

What does that mean exactly? How far should Democrats go to stop these new, undoubtedly racist Republican gerrymanders? Should they try to make more competitive congressional districts in blue states now that the VRA is effectively gone? If they do that, how does the party preserve the power of voters of color in the long term? And are Republicans overstating their advantage in November, given just how badly things are going under President Trump, could Democrats still win the House even with the new maps? In other words, how do Democrats fight fire with fire without burning down the whole House? I'm Alex Wagner, and this week on Runaway country, what the hell is happening with the 2026 midterms and what should Democrats be doing about it? To get a handle on all of this, we're going to talk to Congressman Suhas Subramanian, the Democratic representative from Virginia's 10th district, and get his take on why offense is the best defense. Then we'll hear from a state senator in New York, Mike Giannaris, on what traps lie ahead for Democrats getting greedy about blue state redistricting. And finally, we'll be putting all of this into context with one of the most prominent and effective voting rights activists in this country, Crooked Zone, Stacey Abrams, host of the podcast Assembly Required. But first, my conversation with with Virginia Congressman Suhas Subramanian. Suhas, thank you for joining the show and offering some insight into the absolute, what appears to be on the outside, chaos inside the Old Dominion. First of all, let me just ask you what your reaction was when you heard the news that the redistricting amendment had been effectively struck down by the state Supreme Court. Cause I know what mine was and it was, fuck, what did you think? I mean, how did it go over?

[Suhas Subramanian]

I was shocked. Honestly, I couldn't believe it. You have four Supreme Court Justices of Virginia who think they know better than millions of Virginians, and two separate General Assemblies. And they found a technicality, and not a very good one, to make this ruling and overturn not just the redistricting plan, but an entire election essentially, that we had. We put it to the voters and we told the voters, if you decide you want to move forward with this, then we're going to move forward with it. And we even showed them the maps. And I almost feel like that promise was not fulfilled because the Supreme Court decided after the vote happened that they knew better. So I am absolutely shocked. This just goes to show between this and the Supreme Court of the United States that the judiciary is compromised. It's a political body and we need to treat them as such. So I am just shocked, dismayed, and I feel bad for all the people, the millions of people who came out and voted to move forward to even the playing field on redistricting. And you look at what other red states are doing, and they're doing far worse, and they're doing things that are completely against their constitutions and their supreme courts, because this is political, are totally okay with it. So that's where we are today in America, and we're going to find ways to fight back.

[Alex Wagner]

You know, you've mentioned a technicality for people who aren't familiar with that technicality. Can you, I mean, without getting too far in the weeds, can you explain what the fault was that the state Supreme Court found.

[Suhas Subramanian]

Yeah, so to do an amendment to the Constitution, which is what we needed to do to do this mid decade redistricting, you have to have two separate General Assemblies vote to move a referendum forward and put it in front of voters. And so that means, you know, you have a General Assembly, 100 delegates, 40 senators, they vote and then they have an election, and then you have another General assembly voted in by that election, who then votes on this. And so there needs to be an intervening election. But what the Supreme Court ruled was, well, early voting has started when the last General assembly voted on this. And so therefore they didn't have a full election in between the two general assemblies. But that goes completely against the spirit and really the precedent of how we treated constitutional amendments. And so it was absolutely mind boggling that they basically redefined the word election. And there's a lot of mental gymnastics to get to a place where they overturned this. Which makes me believe, you know, there's some people second guessing this and saying, well, we should have done it earlier than voted on it earlier. Well, sure, we didn't realize what red states were doing. Yeah, it took some time to get together. But even if we had done that, I almost wonder if they would have found another reason to do this because it seemed like they didn't want four of the Supreme Court justices, didn't want med decade redistricting in Virginia because it hurt Republicans. And so they would have found another reason not to do this. That's why this is political. That's why I and many others are angry, is because this wasn't just a, you know, serious violation of the Constitution. It wasn't that at all. This was a technicality that went against precedent and the way they decided it. And everyone should be angry about this. And I think they would have found another reason if it weren't this one.

[Alex Wagner]

So the state Supreme Court basically finds a technicality to reject effectively to toss out the voter approved redistricting referendum. And that technicality is based on the timing of early votes versus election day. I mean, it's so specific. Specific and so persnickety. And that's unfolding at the same time as Southern states are going back to old racist gerrymandered maps or adopting new racist gerrymandered maps literally days before their primaries. Or in the state of Louisiana after voting has already begun and now the governor is saying those votes won't count. South Carolina is actually delaying its election. I mean, how is it that those sort of states of the Confederacy can bend the time space continuum when it comes to elections? But in Virginia, the timing of elections is sacrosanct to the point that like a voter approved referendum on redistricting is thrown out because early voting had already started.

[Suhas Subramanian]

The problem Republicans saw many years ago was that the law and the courts conflicted with what they wanted to do. Yeah, what they wanted to do was things that were unlawful, that were unconstitutional. And what they needed was to stack the courts at every level of court, state and federal, in order to enact their agenda. Otherwise it wouldn't go through. So they, they don't like a policy, now they take it to the courts. Yeah, they have a whole legal infrastructure on the Republican side that is dedicated to just bringing lawsuits nonstop. And what we have is a piecemeal approach on the Democratic side of nonprofits and civil society, really good people who are doing important work. But they're not all united. Their job is not political agenda always. And so Republicans are very much all about making sure that we bend the law, bend the rules to get Republicans elected, because they know that when they govern, they're very unpopular. And so the only way to get elected, the only way to win is to bend the rules to their will and break the rules. And the only way to pass unpopular policies or strike down popular Democratic policies is the courts as well. And so in this case, the voters decided, two General assemblies decided. But because they had worked so hard to stack the judiciary over the years, they were able to strike down the will of millions of people like they have done so many times before.

[Alex Wagner]

There was some reporting in the New York Times about options for Virginia Democrats in the wake of this. And one of the most incendiary, controversial, I don't know, wild ones was the idea, without again getting too into the weeds, was to lower the mandatory retirement age for justices on the state Supreme Court and then effectively kick out the justices, judges, appoint new ones and make sure that those new judges approved the maps that the voters equally approved. Where is that plan right now? And what was the. I mean, when that was first floated? I know your quote is being sort of in favor of all, an all hands on deck approach, but were you in favor of this idea?

[Suhas Subramanian]

It's a pretty extreme idea, but these are extreme times right now. These are unprecedented times. I think those justices, the four justices who decided to overturn the will of the people should not keep their jobs. Frankly, I'm just outraged by their decision. But it's a pretty extreme scenario. But if that's the only way to move this forward, I mean, the people have spoken, right? So I'm open to any suggestions because we know Republicans would do it. We know in states like Ohio and Utah, in Florida now they've ignored their constitutions. In some cases, they ignored their supreme Courts and moved forward with elections even when the Supreme Court said they shouldn't. Right. So we know what Republicans would do in the same situation. And I'm tired of being a victim of Republicans gaming the system, and then we're not able to govern because of it. Even though the people want us to govern. We would be in the majority right now in Congress. Democrats would, if it weren't for Republicans In North Carolina, gerrymandering three additional seats for themselves and flipping three seats, essentially. And so that's where we are. Imagine if we had a real check on President Trump, how much better off the country would be right now. So my goal is to get federal legislation passed with a president that will sign it, that will make fair redistricting across the board so that we don't have to have these conversations. But in the meantime, we have to stop being victims and complaining and start doing things. And so that's why I won't rule out anything. The timeline on doing things right now is very difficult. One of the other reasons why I think this was political is because the Republican judges who ruled this, they waited until the very last minute so the General assembly couldn't respond. They tried to put off this ruling for as long as they could, so it'd be hard for the General assembly to truly act and do things like that. And that's another reason why I believe this was political. And they started with the conclusion that they didn't like redistricting that favored Democrats, and then used really tortured logic to get to that conclusion.

[Alex Wagner]

Did you guys have a sense that these judges were going to rule this way?

[Suhas Subramanian]

I did not know. In fact, two weeks ago, I was telling people, well, you know, the court, this is open and shut. The Republicans don't really have much of a case. I felt like their decision was Republican talking points from back in November of last year of why this is illegal. It's almost like they took the Republican arguments from last year and they put it on paper. That's what it feels like. And there was a lot of discussion in the decision about what they wish the law would be and things like that. I mean, it was very unprofessional, the whole decision from start to finish, as well as the whole situation. And after an election where millions of people had decided and to issue the ruling last minute, it's completely unacceptable. And people want consequences. I've heard many people say that those justices should be gone. I think there are other avenues, too. But the problem is the timing. At this point, 2028 is much more realistic. At this point, 2026 is a long shot. But, you know, even if it's a long shot, I think, you know, you're saying, take it.

[Alex Wagner]

You want Democrats to take it. More from Representative Subramaniam and a word from New York State Senator Mike Gianares

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[Alex Wagner]

I know that the Virginia Democrats have gone to the US Supreme Court and basically asked them to dismiss the ruling of the state Supreme Court. First of all, are you hopeful, given the makeup of the Roberts Court and the fact that the through line does not seem to be, you know, precedent or even jurisprudence, but partisan politics increasingly, are you hopeful that they'll give Democrats a win on this in the state of Virginia?

[Suhas Subramanian]

If we had a non political judiciary that just ruled on the facts and precedent, then the Supreme Court of the United States would either rule that both Louisiana and Virginia are at fault because early voting is part of an election, an election starts during early voting, or they would rule that both are okay to redo their elections, which I think is the better decision. But in any case, Louisiana stopped their early voting in order to redraw their maps. That to me sounds like the start of an election. If in Virginia you're going to rule at the start of an election is early voting and you can't redo the Constitution, but they will come to a decision that will favor Republicans. That's my prediction. Because they are a political body at this point. They are not an independent judiciary that rules on precedent and facts. And then in Florida, that Supreme Court should rule that they are doing partisan gerrymandering too. But again, we know that Republicans either won't listen to them and we'll just move forward with your judiciary anyway like they've done in other states, or that judiciary is compromised too, which I believe it is, and they will just do whatever benefits the Republican Party. So this is all part of the infrastructure Republicans have built over many decades. And Democrats need to respond with the same infrastructure. And we need to treat the judiciary like it is, which is a political body at this point. It is not an independent body ruling on facts, at least for the most part. There are obviously very good judges out there. I don't want to say that every judge is political by any means, but we are getting to a point now where we're seeing parts of our democracy getting torn down and the judiciary is ruling based on a party that they prefer. That is completely unacceptable. And that's how democracies fail.

[Alex Wagner]

So, I mean, I guess I have two questions. One is what else is on the table? And two, you sit in the state, you see how this is playing out. The voters approve something and the court has basically issued a middle finger to that. Do you think this could have an unintended consequence of really firing up and motivating people to go out there and make their voices heard in a way that stands to benefit Democrats. The architects of this plan to begin with?

[Suhas Subramanian]

Sure. As far as what's on the table, it's up to the General Assembly. And I don't know what their options are, honestly. I'm a lawyer, but this is not my area of law. I haven't done a deep dive into what options they have left. And so I'd heard this option being floated of the minimum age, of the maximum age of the justices. I've heard another one about saying that the 2020 referendum that we had in Virginia to have fair redistricting is no longer valid either. Then there's a couple options that have been out there that seem like long shots, but they're out there. And I like that people are even bringing them up because at least we're trying. Right? I want to at least try every option, but it seems like a long shot. But I know that they're discussing as many options as they can as far as. And what I also think is that we should do this for 2028. Then, if 2026 is off the table, run in our districts now. People are already outraged. People are already fired up. I've seen Republicans come to Democratic Committee meetings. I've seen a massive shift away from President Trump and a massive response to him. What we need to understand, though, as Democrats is that nothing can be taken for granted. Republicans always have tricks up their sleeves. They're going to still try to pass the Save America act and make it harder to vote. They're still going to try to do things to make this election. They're not going to hand us a gavel, as our leadership has said. And so we have to continue to educate voters on what's happening to their vote and their voice. And we have to continue to be aggressive in the way that we campaign and the way that we respond when we have adversity like this. And that's what voters want. That's what our base voters want. That's even what new people to the Democratic Party want right now, is they want to see a party that fights more.

[Sponsor Announcer]

All right.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, we are eager to see what the battle lines even look like, given the fact that we're fighting interra incognito. Suhas Subramian, thank you so much for giving us the view from Virginia. What a strange time we live in.

[Suhas Subramanian]

Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

The legislative session in New York ends in just two weeks, and state lawmakers there have multiple pathways to redraw the state maps and including amending the state constitution to push through a voter referendum to redistrict before the 2028 election, reforming their very gridlocked independent commission process and figuring out how to protect any changes they make so their next redistricting cycle can't undo it all in 2032. Fair to say they are playing the long game. But with all of these options in the air, how do they make sure

[Sponsor Announcer]

they don't take it too far?

[Alex Wagner]

Here's my conversation with New York State Senator Mike Gianares. You guys have a lot of questions ahead of you that you need to resolve in the next two weeks. And one of them is how aggressive should Democrats be about making districts more competitive? And that may involve doing away with provisions that were seen as giving minorities a stronger voice at the ballot box, that were ideals preserved in the Voting Rights act, which has been effectively destroyed by the Supreme Court. And I wonder where you sit on that. I mean, everything's changed, but, you know, the need for minority voting power hasn't, right? So how do you find a middle ground?

[Mike Gianaris]

I'm a big advocate of fighting fire with fire, so I do believe we need to get aggressive and kind of consider whether the norms that we typically would hold dear should be reassessed, considering what's happening around the country. However, in New York, at least, I don't think we need to compromise those in order to achieve our goals. We came up with a map. It was a 22 to 4 map, I guess it was. And we had abided by all of the principles laid out in the Constitution. And so I think we have the ability to do both things in New York. We don't have to tear apart Voting Rights act principles in order to get more Democrats elected. In fact, the court has undergone a number of changes here in New York. The chief judge now wrote the dissent in that opinion and explicitly said that the map that legislature drew was perfectly fine. So I think we don't have to kind of go bend over backwards and dilute minority power in order to achieve Democratic power. And the other thing I would say about that is be careful what you wish for if you go down that road. Because we had a situation here in New York that back then got national attention. We had a group of Democrats in the state Senate who, Who were teaming up with Republicans and handing control over to them. You draw a district that dilutes the minority power, dilutes progressive groups power, you're going to end up with candidates elected. Maybe they'd have a D in front of their name but you're looking at kind of a Fetterman or a Manchin situation where it's not necessarily the kind of Democrats that help you govern effectively. Let's just be careful because you want a majority that is going to be there to do the right thing and not be ungovernable.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I mean, that's such a. You guys were able to do it. You feel confident that New York can redraw maps that give Democrats the number of seats that they're hoping for, but also doesn't undermine the provisions of the Voting Rights act and the general sort of desire for fairness and justice across all lines.

[Mike Gianaris]

Yeah, I do believe that, look, the black representation particularly, but minority representation in general is going to take a huge hit now. You're seeing it throughout the South. The last thing we want to do is contribute to that in New York.

[Stacey Abrams]

Right.

[Mike Gianaris]

So I would be very much concerned about any efforts to do that. And by the way, we have a state version of the Voting Rights act here in New York. So we would have to overturn our own laws to do this. And I don't think it's a wise idea. I don't think it's necessary.

[Alex Wagner]

More importantly, do you think that, do you worry about what's happening in other blue states as the pressure ramps up? You know, as you know, I don't know what's going to happen in Virginia, but other states that haven't dip their foot in the. Or dip their toes in what feels like an arms race to get as many seats as possible, do you worry about what happens? You guys may not have to directly address it in New York, but what about other states that may feel more pressure to disenfranchise, I mean, effectively disenfranchised minority groups that have otherwise been protected or championed by legislation like the Voting Rights Act?

[Mike Gianaris]

I'm greatly concerned about it. I'm hoping that the fact that one of the leaders in Congress is in fact African American, Akeem Jeffries, would hopefully have some interest in not seeing his own community, its power diluted. But this is a decades long fight that was successful up until recently in helping minorities in this country achieve political representation. Hopefully it's not necessary. I can't speak for what's going on in these other states and how they can draw their maps in a way that achieves the ultimate goal without doing that. But it's one of the reasons some people are advocating multiple referendum options for us, so that we can kind of see how the midterms go before we have to make a decision. And see what the lay of the land is. I think if there's a Democratic majority in the House next year, the pressure will be different than if we're still dealing with a Republican majority.

[Alex Wagner]

Do you think that the general sort of explicitly partisan motivations behind this wave of gerrymandering that's happening across the country. And I'm not trying to draw false equivalence between what the Republican Party has done and the Democratic Party has done. I mean, I think there is a difference between who started this and who's trying to effectively neutralize it. But do you worry that this is gonna be. I mean, there was a moment when it was all about independent redistrict commissions. Right. And that felt like the right thing. And that's not to say the Democrats aren't still embracing that as a potential future goal. But do you worry about. You know, I mean, I guess once you start doing this, regardless of what the circumstances of your starting to do this are, do you worry that it could backfire with Democrats down the line?

[Mike Gianaris]

I don't. I mean, I think that ship has sailed. Republicans have proven to be more ruthless about these things than Democrats, and that's been to their political advantage. While we're sitting here trying to do the pure thing, they are amassing political power. One thing the last couple years has made clear is the independent redistricting conversation needs to be settled federally. It's not something states should do individually because there is a big distinction between the two parties as to who supports that kind of approach and who doesn't. And then what ends up happening is the Democratic states have their hands tied and the Republicans are free to go and do what they've been doing. And so we're suffering the consequences of that. This is a problem that if it doesn't have a national solution, we need to be able to fight fire with fire.

[Alex Wagner]

Are you confident that, like, you're on the same. Do you feel like there's. That everyone's simpatico on this in terms of state leadership and national leadership at this point?

[Mike Gianaris]

Yes, I would say that wasn't necessarily the case last year or the year before. But we've gotten to the point where the stakes are clear and the consequences are clear. And so, yeah, I think we're all. And Leader Jeffries sent Congressmember Morelli up to talk with us, who we're all familiar with. He served with us for a number of years, and we had a good conversation last week. So I'm pretty sure we all want to get to the same place.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, Good luck getting to the same place. Feels like a real Herculean mission right now.

[Mike Gianaris]

It really is.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you for your time, Senator. It's great to hear the view from the ground and good luck with the next two weeks. Sounds like you got a lot of discussions to have.

[Mike Gianaris]

Oh, we haven't even finished our state budget, Alex, so there's a lot going on the next two weeks.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Godspeed, Godspee.

[Mike Gianaris]

Thanks so much.

[Alex Wagner]

Up next, putting this all into context with lawyer, author and voting rights activist,

[Sponsor Announcer]

the great Stacey Abrams. Runaway country is brought to you by Helix. My producer Emma got a new Helix Midnight luxe mattress this year and she absolutely loves it. Not only is her new Helix mattress way comfier than her last bed, it's also a lot bigger.

[Alex Wagner]

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[Alex Wagner]

I know how I feel about what's happening to our democracy. I mean, just big picture, right? In the wake of the Calais decision, in the wake of the Virginia State Supreme Court decision, in the context of the Supreme Court of the United States, fast tracking, you know, the shredding of representative democracy down south, how bad is it right now?

[Stacey Abrams]

We are living in an authoritarian, or let's be more specific, we are living in a competitive, authoritarian nation. And the difference matters. Full on authoritarianism, they don't hide it anymore in competitive authoritarianism. They use democratic institutions. They use democracy's rules to dismantle democracy's ends. And so they are using, using democracy's tools, like elections, like districts, like voting to strip away power. And they do so in a way that to the untrained eye, seems like pure partisanship. It's just the horse race. But that is not what this is and that is not what we're in the midst of. They are strategically, systematically and almost irrevocably stripping communities of power that pose a threat to their authoritarian dominion. And by the time the rest of the country catches up, it will be too late to undo the carnage. And that's one of the reasons I tell people you can't let the south just kind of figure it out. The south has been ground 0 for 250 years for practicing soft authoritarianism, for practicing using the laws, using terms of art like race neutral or colorblind, or just saying it's about party and not, not people. They've done this forever and it didn't really matter which party was in power. We've seen this practice. The issue is what the ends look like. And invariably, if what you oppose is a pluralistic democracy, then your pathway has to be dismantling access for people of color to participate.

[Alex Wagner]

I feel like after 2000 especially, nobody should have been holding their breath for the Supreme Court to do the right thing when it as it concerns an election. But you know, the Calais decision as you brilliantly point out, is devastating. The fast tracking of these newly redrawn, hastily redrawn perversions of congressional maps in, in the south, in Alabama and South Carolina and Tennessee. I cannot, it shouldn't astound me, but the fact that the Supreme Court is doing something like how long did it take them to come to a presidential immunity decision? I mean, this is a court that loves to be deliberative when it suits partisan gains and loves to fast track when it's in service. Truly, as you say, of competitive authoritarianism, it has anything about the fast tracking and the behavior of the state surprise you?

[Stacey Abrams]

Not at all. Because again, this isn't about partisanship. Partisanship is the fig leaf. They are using partisanship to accomplish an end. And I want to take it back to first principles in the United States. For years, for a couple of centuries, we have pretended that our goal was democracy. We were just taking different routes to get there. You know, Democrats used Apple Maps and Republicans Google Maps and Independence and all those other folks use Waze. But we were all aiming towards democracy. That's what we said we wanted. We just had different policy objectives, we had different principles that guided us. But we all said this is what we want. Where we are now is the naked revelation that this is no longer about trying to get to democracy. There are those who want democracy, which in the United States means, means pluralism. It means communities of difference, come together. Racial difference, economic difference, social class difference. All of those pieces that we want. Democracy, a pluralistic democracy. But where we are headed right now is authoritarianism. Authoritarianism wants a concentration of power. It wants to strip people of their freedoms and it wants to not be held accountable for the consequences of either. And democracy stands in direct objection to that. Democracy is about shared power. It's about, you know, the granting of freedoms, the protection of freedoms. It's about accountability. And we cannot use the frames we're used to of this being partisanship. Democrats versus Republicans. No, this is about those who believe in this concentration of power with no accountability. Competitive authoritarianism is the place we're in now, but we're heading towards, towards full on authoritarianism. 10 to 15 years out versus democracy. And therefore we have to stop using frameworks that made sense three years ago because they don't make sense anymore. And to your point about the Supreme Court, the speed at which the Supreme Court is complying is consistent with what we saw happen last year. What they did in 2025 when they approved, removed the decimation of this federal government through Doge when they said it was perfectly okay for mass incarceration to happen and it was fine for ICE to pull people of color into detention based on race and the language they spoke and the accent they had when it was okay a few years before that to grant presidential immunity from any consequence when they said that you can now bribe people and that's okay. We have watched the Supreme Court be complicit in dismantling democracy, dismantling accountability, and dismantling freedoms. That's nothing but authoritarianism. And so, no, we can't be surprised by the speed at which they are acting on the easiest part of their job, which is stripping black and brown people of the right to have a voice in elections.

[Alex Wagner]

Given that, I mean, I wonder what you think. There are sort of two competing interests as it, as it pertains to Virginia. Right. On one hand, Virginia Democrats are not trying to go quietly into that good night and accept what their state Supreme Court has handed down, invalidating these new maps that were approved by voter referendum. So they're fighting with all they have today. We're recording this on a Tuesday. They're seeking review. They are seeking a decision from the Supreme Court to effectively get the maps that the rotors approved back in action. I'm paraphrasing wildly, so I understand that you kind of have to go for broke, pursue every avenue. But Ian Millhiser at Vox raises a very, I think, relevant concern in all of this, which is, does Virginia really want to give this Supreme Court federal jurisdiction over how a state runs its election, even if it's asking for relief effectively. But like, given where the Roth Roberts court is at on the host of issues that you just outlined, is it a good idea to involve them in this dispute which they haven't had their paws all over, unlike, of course, the vra. Do you have a thought on that?

[Stacey Abrams]

I do. It's. You want the relief that is available, but at what cost? And so it's not. Is the Supreme Court going to be involved? Because the Supreme Court has involved itself in state elections before. We have paid a lot of attention to Shelby Beholder and the Branovic decision and now Calais, which directly implicated the Voting Rights Act. But Russo, Common Cause versus Russia was not a VRA case, but that was the case that said that partisanship could be explicitly utilized for gerrymandering, which said to black and brown communities that weren't under VRA maps were coming for you. But it. And so this is not new, that a state is asking for federal relief and participation in elections. The Danger, though, is the question that we're asking. And I think that's the place where I'm a bit worried about what Virginia is asking for, because if the pretext of the question is, can our voters referendum hold? Okay, if it is, we want you to interfere in these specific questions of the administration of an election that's deeply problematic. And so I think that's where the rubber meets the road. But I do want to pull back a bit, and you didn't ask me this, but I'm going to say it anyway, please. There is a difference between nullifying what is bad action and being the person who started the fight. And so there are some people who are saying, well, Virginia and California are just like Texas and Alabama. No, that. That is. There's. There's no comparison. I think it was Marcolias who said, you know, the arsonists can't claim to be the same thing as the firefighters. It's two different things. And in a democracy where we acknowledge that While we have 50 independent states, we are one nation, then it is incumbent upon members of that nation to step into the breach that is created by other members of that nation that create the problem. And that is why I tell people, do not abandon the South. They may be coming for us first, but the consequences of their behavior will impact all of us. And that is why it is absolutely legitimate for California and Indiana, for Utah at the moment, although that could change for any state that says, we want democracy to hold. We want the democratic principle small d, not partisan d, but democracy to hold, that's perfectly fine. That is good. That is noble. We can have ideological differences about the policies that we want once we get on the other side, but right now, we're fighting over whether there is another side.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And. And by the way, just bears mentioning that in Virginia and California, they went to the voters.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Right.

[Alex Wagner]

There is absolutely citizen involvement in these decisions, which is paramount in all of this. This in terms of representative democracy. More of my conversation with Assembly Required host Stacey Abrams in just a moment. But first, I recently guest hosted the latest episode of Hysteria. It's an excellent show, and I had a majorly awesome time spiraling through everything from hantavirus panic to the Trump administration's deeply weird new pronatalism push. Yes, really. And then Aaron sat down with Chelsea Fagan of the Financial Diet to talk about surviving financial uncertainty without completely losing it. So listen, wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube and catch new episodes of Hysteria every Thursday.

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Stacey Abrams]

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And that it's one of those good saunas with the hot rock thing. Ugh. Love a good hot rock thing. Fancy.

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Stacey Abrams]

Now.

[Alex Wagner]

I get I am deeply not sympathetic is the wrong word, but I wholeheartedly agree with you in terms of the stakes of not giving up on the south and also this sort of seismic shift that the Court's Calais decision represents. I also wonder if you have thoughts about whether this is even good strategy on the part of, you know, racist conservative Supreme Court justices and Republicans Who. Who follow their lead because, you know, like, the unspoken truth of. Of the Roberts Court is they believe that the only people who would ever elect a black person are black people. And so by basically disenfranchising black people, you're ensuring that there are not gonna be a lot of black people in Congress. But the reality is not that at all. I mean, I'm drawn to a tweet, a thread written by Sean Kastin, the Democrat from Illinois, who points out that in 2018, in his freshman class, every black member of Congress that was elected in that 2018 class was elected in a majority white district. So if the goal here is to get people of color out of our representative democracy, I'm not sure that's entirely gonna work. To say nothing of the fact that racist people don't often like being told they're racist white people and conscripted for the effort to, like, bleach our representative democracy. Do you know what I mean? It's not like this is gonna juice white turnout necessarily because it's so transparently racist. I just wonder if it. If the end goal isn't. Is actually truly served by the strategy here.

[Stacey Abrams]

It is because it is one piece of a larger tactical intention, and here's why. Why? You're absolutely right. In the short term, they are not going to have. This is not the silver bullet that achieves all of their ends, but this is a set piece that has consistently worked every time someone has used it. And if it works, you know, if you're going to quote Hagel, if it works, it's good. So in their minds, this is something to use because it has worked before that. But your point is, we'll take it. And that's the part of the. The speed. They know that in 2046, this is a majority minority country. They saw that in 2024. While it was not as seismic as people would like for it to be, there was a substantial and certainly marked shift among communities of color. It was not a death knell for the Democratic Party, but it was a meaningful shift. And what they are presuming is that if you align the These two tactical realities, that the policymaking brings some of the. Or at least the rhetoric brings some over, and then you. You mute and demolish the opportunities of others, that you then create a pathway for this permanence. But you also don't have to have it forever. It just has to work for a second.

[Alex Wagner]

You.

[Stacey Abrams]

You have to. If you break it in 26, that means it's broken in 28. Gained. Then you game the system in 28 because the electoral college decision will determine who holds power. And then you look at the map going forward, you make sure that we don't have a census that works in 2030, which means then the lines that get drawn in 30, 20, 31, it doesn't really matter who votes because you've done all of the pieces that you need to do to diminish, mute or fracture the voices that could participate. That's the end game.

[Alex Wagner]

Following on that, I would suggest that a lot of these redrawn districts are based on the 2024 maps where Trump has a more multi colored coalition than I think he would have in 2026 if he was running, and certainly that any Republican would have in 2028 because he has been so profoundly inept at leading the country. And that's being euphemistic. I mean, it has been an utter goat rodeo. And like, nobody's done more work to undermine the chances of his party in terms of holding Congress than Donald Trump. And so following on your logic, like, you know, there are a lot of people saying, well, maybe these newly drawn districts are actually gonna net Democratic seats, like in Florida. Ron DeSantis could be, you know, it could be a fool's errand. He could actually just make more competitive districts. Even if that happens, the districts will be more competitive because Donald Trump is a fool. Like a Naples Ultra, like there. It's unusual that you're going to get a president this bad, someone who's literally raising gas prices right before an election. And so to your point, even if the hemorrhaging isn't as bad as I think we think right now, that doesn't mean that the structural changes are not deeply pernicious and could have a much longer lasting effect in future election cycles. Is that accurate? Am I like overstating the case here?

[Stacey Abrams]

No, you're not. You're not overstating it, but there it is. One facet of the case, because they're not just playing for Congress, they're playing for states. They understand states rights because that's what Jim Crow was. Jim Crow had race neutral laws. There were some that were explicitly race based, like physical segregation on buses and trains and bathrooms, water fountains. But the voting laws were always race neutral.

[Mike Gianaris]

Neutral.

[Stacey Abrams]

What they did was they made race neutral laws that only had a negative impact on black people. And so poll taxes because black people couldn't get jobs, literacy tests because black people have been denied the right to read and to learn to read grandfather clause, you could avoid all of this, your get out of jail free card was if your family can vote before the Civil War, which if you were in the south, was not permitted for most black people. Okay, so to your point, on the congressional level, they have a map math problem, but on the state level, they have an opportunity because the states are the ones who draw the congressional lines, but they also make all of the other determinations. And these rules now apply to how state legislative lines are drawn, how county legislative lines are drawn, how school board lines are drawn, city council districts. And so if what your goal is, is power, you don't just focus on the power that we've been trained to pay attention to. You look at all of the facets of power and you aggregate what you can. You hold the court, you hold the majority of the legislative branches of government, because we can play really hardball in Congress. But the Senate is a different map. Idaho's not going away and Idaho's not going blue. And so what we've got to remember is that they're also looking at long term maps. And that's why, why I started the 10 Steps campaign and why I'm, I talk about authoritarianism so aggressively. We cannot think that this is about who wins a presidential election.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Or working or led the legislative branch. At the federal level, this is about

[Stacey Abrams]

who holds power and how they wield that power against people. And if you understand how American government works, power sits at multiple levels. And so they are, are. You're absolutely right about the math of trying to win a congressional race. But they're saying we've got a lot of other pieces on the, on the board. And to use a chess analogy, because I love chess, they play a whole board strategy and they use all of their pieces. We get really fascinated by the bishop and the queen. And maybe we let a rook play occasionally, but we let our pawns just get taken out because we're like, oh, but we've got these bishops. They're like, like, oh, that pawn can become a queen on the other end of the table.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

And, and that's the challenge. We cannot think about this. And again, it's not Republicans versus Democrats anymore. It's those who want authoritarianism or what the spoils of authoritarianism can deliver versus those who want democracy and what democracy requires.

[Alex Wagner]

Right. Only one side is embracing independent redistricting conditions in like 2045, and it's the side that begins with a D. So what can be done here? I mean, there is some thinking that this is also transparently racist, that it in fact, will juice turnout, which is meaningful because it's not just about the legislative branch. It's also about what's happening at the state level, and hopefully at the state level. Then you can win state legislative seats and change the way the maps are drawn again at some point and ensure some version of representative democracy to the extent that such a thing is possible. I mean, I mean, first of all, do you think it's true that the outrage is tangible enough at the sort of grassroots level that people are going to come out in force to show that they are against this? And do you think that could have a meaningful impact in terms of reversing the worst effects of this?

[Stacey Abrams]

There's opportunity. There's no guarantee. And so that's why I'm here. That's why I'm going everywhere. That's why I was in Tennessee last week. There is opportunity, but we have to leverage it. Because for people for whom democracy has been a nice concept but never a real lived experience, then no, people being racist is not news. Like racism isn't. What is the driving force? It's those who will oppose the racist. What do they offer? And it's why I've been a little bit chagrined by those who are saying, oh, we should start running candidates in the south south who are race neutral, who, you know, are run anti abortion white candidates in these districts. Because, well, we'll come back for you later. We'll come back for people of color later, we'll come back for the disabled later, we'll come back for the LGBTQIA community later. That, that's dangerous. Because to your point, yes, you have an activation opportunity, but not if your actors are just. If not just as bad actors that. But who are problematic in the way.

[Alex Wagner]

Who are, John?

[Stacey Abrams]

I mean, yeah, basically anybody who says, yeah, they tried to steal your right to vote, let me borrow it. And. But I can't promise I'm going to do anything with it that they weren't going to do. So we can't just say because people are outraged, it's enough. Outrage is our invitation to action. And there are three things we can do. We can start having conversations with people on the local level, connecting the dots, because. Because outrage about losing your right to vote only matters if people know what they could be voting for. So we've got to tell the story. That's where connecting authoritarianism to the economics becomes an important point. So let's.

[Alex Wagner]

The ballroom helps with that.

[Stacey Abrams]

It does. But for people who have. There's a country song I love from the 1940s. And it said, this guy told me Wall street fell, but we were so poor we couldn't tell tell. We presume that people are paying attention to the ballroom. They're not. They're a whole lot of folks. There were 90 million people who did not vote in the 24 election who think a pox on both your houses because there's nothing in this for me. We have to take them seriously and start showing up. That's number one. Number two, we have to use the places where we know democracy is going to win win to start putting in place voting rights laws, start putting in place expanded access to the ballot. And we need states like Maryland, like New York, like Illinois to get in the fight. Because this isn't about whether Democrats or Republicans hold seats. It's whether or not democracy has champions. And we have to keep electing democracy champions. And then third, we have to keep going to court. We can't stop going to court because they're going to kick us out. Plessy versus Ferguson, the distance between that and Brown v. Board of Education was a lot of losses. But we don't get to our victories if we don't make the record clear.

[Alex Wagner]

You mentioned New York and you mentioned Illinois. On the New York front, what do you say to the New York reps who think it's about cracking apart districts that were once protected by the VRA to get more opportunities on the board? I know you have thoughts on this, but what would the response be to that kind of horse racy? We need to reclaim the legislative branch and that will begin to fix the structural problems here. So don't worry about having majority districts that comport with the VRA as it once stood.

[Stacey Abrams]

You can't sacrifice me to save me. You can't sacrifice the community to save that community. And it is lazy, it is disingenuous, it is not as bad, but it is pretty problematic. And so you can protect communities and you can also fight back against authoritarian redraws. We can do both. And it takes more time, it takes more intention, but it can be done. But it's a lazy response to say, well, we're just going to win, and then we'll again, I'm going to win, but I'll come back for you. That's the argument. And that undermines the credibility of the entire enterprise. So I think we have to have fair maps that are community protecting. And let's be clear, they start with black people, but they go to brown people. They go to all of us. And we cannot allow any communities of color to be sacrificed on the altar of eventual victory. We are not sacrificial lambs anymore. We are present, active, necessary components to victory. Figure it out.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay, let me ask you a big picture, like prediction question. I mean, what do you think representation in the south is going to look like a decade from now?

[Stacey Abrams]

So if we do this right, if we use the 26 elections to activate voters, and I want to remind people, I get a lot of credit for registering people. I registered a lot of people. I helped organizations register a lot of people. But my 2018 election, the distance between Jason Carter in 2014 and me in 2018 was 800,000 people who showed up. We did not register 800,000 people. We turned out 800,000 people. We tripled Latino turnout. We tripled the Asian American turnout. We increased youth participation by 40%. We increased black participation at 40%. We added numbers by promising to do the right thing. So it is not just the lines we draw, it's the work we do for those lines to matter. And so if we do that work nationwide, and I don't give myself credit, it was my team, it was the teams that were on the ground. It was all the organizations that have been waiting for someone to say out loud the quiet part, which is we should talk to everybody. It's me talking to white people and me talking to brown people and me talking to black people. It was us going to all 159 counties and not abandoning any state or any county or any community. If we do that work in the south, they know why they're coming after us. Half of the black community lives there. 57% of black people live in the South. Half of the Latino population lives in the south and Southwest California. Not Calhorn's, don't think. But the thing is, if we do that work in those communities, we activate those voters not as tribute, but as participants. And so in a decade, we could have the nation. We keep talking about this multiracial, multi ethnic, ideologically diverse, multi generational democracy that is led by a South and Southwest, by a Sunbelt coalition that shows what we should actually be doing. Guaranteeing health care, guaranteeing housing. Housing. Guaranteeing that you can actually have a living wage as opposed to a sub minimum wage that pretends to be a minimum wage. All of the things that most Americans say they want. If we fix it in the south, we fix it for everybody. So don't leave us behind because we've been waiting for you and we're ready to work.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, man. I feel like optimistic strangely and against all odds at the end of this conversation. Stacey Abrams, that's why you're you.

[Stacey Abrams]

You're very kind.

[Alex Wagner]

It is really. Your voice is so essential in all of this and I really feel like you clarified the picture for me profoundly so I'm deeply grateful. Stacey Abrams, who loves country music from the 1940s and chess. I learn something new about you every time I talk to you and I learn something new about our country. But Stacey, thank you. Thanks for your time tonight, Alex.

[Stacey Abrams]

It is always a pleasure and delight and an honor to be with you. You're amazing.

[Alex Wagner]

You're the best.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

That is our show for this week.

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Alex Wagner]

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