Hasan Piker on the Democrats' Bullies and Republican Nazis

Summary

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Runaway Country with Alex Wagner

Episode: "Hasan Piker on the Democrats' Bullies and Republican Nazis"

Date: November 13, 2025
Podcast Host: Alex Wagner
Guests: Morris Katz (Senior Political Advisor), Hasan Piker (Political Commentator)

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Overview

This episode of Runaway Country dives into the ongoing political turbulence in America following a contentious government shutdown and an intensifying culture war within both political parties. Alex Wagner unpacks the concepts of backbone, authenticity, and extremism with two guests central to the current discourse: campaign advisor Morris Katz and progressive commentator Hasan Piker. The discussions explore why Democrats struggle to play offense against Trump, how the Republican right is increasingly entangled with open fascism, the role of authenticity (and acceptable flaws) in political candidates, and how American masculinity and the rise of the "manosphere" inflect these battles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Democratic "Cave" in the Shutdown (04:52–13:15)

• The Democratic Party's Strategy:

  • Alex introduces the establishment-vs-insurgent dynamic, describing the Democrats’ capitulation in the shutdown as lack of backbone.
  • Morris Katz laments the party’s failure to "own" the shutdown, advocating for a more confident, unapologetic stance:
    • Quote [05:30]: "We should have just from the start been like, yes, we are shutting the government down to keep your health care costs low... instead, we were in an apologetic stance. And that's no way to start a fight." — Morris Katz
  • The panel likens Capitol Hill to a “country club of millionaires who do what billionaires tell them” ([09:50]).
  • Katz urges for more “reluctant candidates” who don't view Senate positions as legacies but obligations to fix a broken system.

• The Impact of Governance on Reformers:

  • Wagner and Katz discuss how idealistic campaigners (e.g., Fetterman) can be changed or co-opted by the institutional forces of D.C.
  • Quote [10:58]: "We have a party of people who, like, didn't sit at the cool kids table, and it comes through and we're haunted by it every single day in Washington." — Morris Katz

2. Insurgent Campaigns & Authenticity in Politics (11:25–18:58)

• The Power of Authentic Candidates:
  • Katz discusses campaigns he's worked on: Zoran Mamdani’s “outsider” mayoral win and Graham Platner's Senate run, both demonstrating unapologetic, insurgent styles that attract younger and marginalized voters.
  • He calls out the "culture of backroom politics" determining who’s electable, often to the party's detriment:
    • Quote [13:54]: "Why are we going to let the same people who picked Sarah Gideon to lose by 12 points tell us who our nominees should be this time? That's an insane theory."
  • On candidate mistakes (e.g., Platner’s Nazi tattoo from his youth) and public scrutiny: Katz believes that what matters now is transparency and evolution, not perfection:
    • Quote [15:59]: "People are self aware enough to know that they too have said things they regret, that they too have gone through dark periods... I think that's a politics we can all be excited about."

3. Democrats & the Problem of Playing Defense (18:58–23:12)

• Lack of Unifying Message:
  • Katz argues that Democrats need public, performative displays of unity and purpose—like rallies led by big names (Sanders, Warren, AOC)—to build backbone and change the political narrative:
    • Quote [21:31]: "That gives the backbone. But because we treat our most popular leaders like they're plights on the party, then we leave ourselves devoid of any vision or of any backbone."
  • The need to harness social and viral media to inspire activism and communicate policy messages more effectively.

4. The Republican Embrace of Extremism & Nazism (26:18–35:10)

• Fuentes, Fascism, and Mainstreaming Hate:
  • Hasan Piker reacts to the normalization of open Nazis like Nick Fuentes on Tucker Carlson’s show, and how the Heritage Foundation defends them:
    • Quote [29:36]: “This is the most dangerous type of right wing infighting... it's the inevitable forces of anti Semitism winning.”
  • Piker explains how “own the libs” culture evolved from shock politics to sincere fascist ideology among young conservatives:
    • Quote [34:32]: "If your movement revolves around constantly saying the most heinous thing you could possibly say... why did anybody think that, like, Jews would be spared?"
  • Shrewd observation of right-wing figures (e.g., Ben Shapiro, Mark Levin) enabling a movement whose logical endpoint is antisemitism and fascism.
  • Note: Piker repeatedly stresses that this is not a new phenomenon but an “inevitability” foundational to the U.S. right.

5. Masculinity, the Manosphere, and the Allure of Fascism (37:18–43:01)

• Toxic Masculinity as Recruitment Tool:

  • Wagner and Piker discuss the overlap of misogyny, insecurity, and fascism; how "manosphere" figures feed young men narratives of injury and lost greatness, blaming their woes on women, people of color, and marginalized groups.
    • Quote [38:22]: "A lot of insecure men have been able to shift their attention over to some form of systemic analysis that takes away responsibility... It's feminism. It's women... In that moment of crisis, a lot of young men find themselves seeking out answers."
  • The conversation explores the need for alternative models of masculinity: confident, open, and resistant to scapegoating.

• How to Respond to Fasci-curious Trolling:

  • Piker advocates for both social stigma ("that's weird") and steadfast, vigilant counter-messaging to keep Nazi/fascist memes from mainstreaming.

6. Party Contradictions: Tolerance, Redemption, & Double Standards (48:20–55:51)

• Graham Platner’s Tattoo, Zoran Mamdani’s Identity, and Selective Outrage:
  • Piker acknowledges that some liberals are more willing to forgive white candidates with checkered pasts (e.g., Nazi tattoos) than candidates of color who are unfairly charged with antisemitism:
    • Quote [53:35]: "That is institutionalized Islamophobia... We shall see if liberals are more forgiving of guys like Graham Platner because he's a white dude."
  • The stakes are articulated: if Democrats are to expand their base and embody pluralism, they must learn to champion real redemption and accept diverse candidates—warts and all.

7. The Importance of Authenticity and Charisma—Case Study: Zoran Mamdani (60:20–66:11)

• Populism That Resonates:
  • Focus on Mamdani's historic New York City mayoral win as a model for what works: being the "real deal," connecting with the working class, overcoming major structural hurdles, and being visibly, unapologetically oneself.
    • Quote [62:35]: "He is himself. That's what I do as well. I'm just authentically myself. I don't care… If you're confident in your masculinity, this kind of stuff doesn't matter." — Hasan Piker
  • Discussion of how Trump's outsider status and Mamdani's authenticity both tap into American contradictions and hunger for realness.

8. Lessons for the Left: Messaging, Fearlessness, and Reform (69:27–74:22)

• Embracing Boldness and Pluralism:
  • America, Piker says, is “the nation of contradictions”; if the left doesn't offer a lively alternative, the only narrative that wins is the right-wing one.
  • Democrats must reject defensive, consultant-class caution:
    • Quote [73:15]: "Don't show your soft belly. Go out there and fight." — Alex Wagner
  • Final call to action: be aggressive, unapologetic, and willing to actually fight for constituents—on issues like immigration, healthcare, and social inclusion.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-------------|-----------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:30 | Morris Katz | "We should have just from the start been like, yes, we are shutting the government down..." | | 09:50 | Morris Katz | "The Senate's a country club of millionaires who just do what billionaires tell them." | | 10:58 | Morris Katz | "We have a party of people who, like, didn't sit at the cool kids table, and it comes through..."| | 15:59 | Morris Katz | "People are self aware enough to know that they too have said things they regret, that they too have gone through dark periods." | | 21:31 | Morris Katz | "That gives the backbone. But because we treat our most popular leaders like they're plights on the party, then we leave ourselves devoid of any vision..." | | 29:36 | Hasan Piker | "This is the most dangerous type of right wing infighting... it's the inevitable forces of anti Semitism winning."| | 34:32 | Hasan Piker | "If your movement revolves around constantly saying the most heinous thing you could possibly say... why did anybody think that, like, Jews would be spared?"| | 38:22 | Hasan Piker | "A lot of insecure men have been able to shift their attention... it's feminism, it's women... in that moment of crisis, a lot of young men find themselves seeking out answers."| | 53:35 | Hasan Piker | "That is institutionalized Islamophobia... We shall see if the liberals are more forgiving of guys like Graham Platner because he's a white dude..."| | 62:35 | Hasan Piker | "He is himself. And that's what I do as well. Like, I'm just authentically myself."| | 73:15 | Alex Wagner | "Don't show your soft belly. Go out there and fight." |

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 04:52 – Democrats’ failure to "own" the shutdown; the need for offensiveness, not apology.
• 11:25 – Insider take on insurgent campaigns and generational shift inside the party.
• 15:59 – The value of authenticity, embracing flaws, and transparency for modern candidates.
• 26:38 – The right’s flirtation with fascism: from Carlson’s Fuentes interview to Heritage’s excuses.
• 37:18 – How and why young men are radicalized by fascist and manosphere ideology.
• 48:20 – Double standards in how left and right candidates are judged for "problematic" pasts.
• 60:20 – Zoran Mamdani’s mayoral victory and what his form of masculinity represents.
• 69:27 – America’s contradictions and how the left can only win by loud, bold action.

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Tone & Takeaways

The tone is energetic and unsparing—funny, frustrated, urgent. Guests speak with candor (and frequent profanity) about strategy, hypocrisy, and the gravity of America's ongoing political inflection point. The push for authenticity, toughness, and unapologetic progressivism runs through every thread, with the message: fighting for what’s right—boldly, messily, humanly—is the only way forward.

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For listeners wanting a concise summary:
This episode is a masterclass on the pitfalls of apologetic, consultant-overrun Democratic politics, a warning about the mainstreaming of fascism and hate on the right, and a roadmap for revitalizing American democratic politics through authenticity, courage, and conviction.

Transcript

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[Alex Wagner]

Hey, it's Alex. Over the last month, thousands of federal workers went without pay because of the government shutdown. With paychecks on hold, many families are still struggling to put food on the table. That is why the labor force is stepping up. They've been distributing grocery cards to help federal employees and their families buy the basics, things like peanut butter and jelly, lunch for the kids, and dinners for the week. But the demand, as you can imagine, is still overwhelming. Over a million federal workers were affected by the shutdown. And the labor force has had to pause new requests until more donations come in. You can make a real difference today. A $10 gift helps buy essentials. $50 covers lunches for two kids for a week, and $250 fills a family's grocery cart. Go to thelaborforce.org crooked to donate and help reopen the program for families still waiting. That's thelaborforce.org crooked. Let's make sure no family goes hungry. Hi, everyone. On election night last Tuesday, the country saw a full on blue wave. A series of dramatic wins for Democrats and significant losses for conservatives. So it's kind of hard to believe that just a few days later, Democrats in Congress folded.

[Interviewer/Host]

What just happened in the Senate chamber.

[Nick Fuentes]

Was an absolute disgrace. I just, I can't stress it enough. I'm just so pissed off at just what's gonna happen to so many people.

[Alex Wagner]

You just heard New Jersey Senator Andy Kim's reaction on the government shutdown is over. And the Democratic strategy in all of this questionable. The healthcare subsidies Democrats were fighting to extend are still very much set to expire at the end of this year. And those tax credits would have prevented millions of people like Lindsay, who we spoke to last week, from paying two to three times what they currently do for health insurance. By way of an explanation for this, Democrats who defected to end the shutdown pointed to Donald Trump's punishment of federal workers and people who take airplanes. And also the 42 million Americans who receive food stamps. Now Democrats say the fight on health care isn't over. And maybe it isn't. Maybe, maybe voters will blame Republicans for the turmoil and take their anger to the 2026 voting booth. But no matter how you look at it, the Democrats, the party in Congress, blinked in the middle of a standoff with the biggest bully in the country, Donald Trump. So what does that say about the Democratic Party and its leadership and what happens in future fights against that very same opponent? I'm Alex Wagner, and this week on Runaway country, we're gonna talk about bullies in an age of extre. What does it mean to have real backbone? Democrats caved to the country's authoritarian in chief, Donald Trump, while a good share of Trump's own party is now apparently submitting to Nazis. And nobody knows that better than socialist and twitch streamer political commentator and Gen Z mascot Hasan Piker, who devotes a fair amount of his day to calling out the bigotry within the ranks of the Republican Party and who knows a thing or two about bully culture.

[Hasan Piker]

If you have developed a movement off of sh t ing on every marginalized group, and that is your North Star as it is the Republicans, why wouldn't they also do that to the Jews?

[Alex Wagner]

But first, I am sitting down with Morris Katz, Zoran Mamdani's 26 year old political advisor. Morris was one of the key players in Mamdani's landslide victory last week, particularly among younger voters. He has been right in the middle of the fight between the Democratic establishment and its new wave of insurgents, and he remains in the middle of that fight. Morris Katz is also an advisor to Graham Platner's Senate campaign, whose race in Maine has not been free of, well, all kinds of controversy. Morris and I chatted about why the Democrats caved this week, what it means to have backbone in the age of Trump, and what the next generation of Democrats is going to demand of its leaders, whether they like it or not. Morris Capps. It's a thrill. Thank you and welcome to Runaway Country.

[Morris Katz]

Thanks so much for having me, Alex.

[Alex Wagner]

So much of this moment politically feels like it's a story of backbone and who has it and who doesn't. And I want to start with the shutdown or the UN shutdown or the cave or whatever you want to call it this week. Just give me your initial reaction to the news on Sunday night that eight Democrats had freelanced across the aisle.

[Morris Katz]

Well, yeah, one, I think the kind of freelance thing is it's amusing watching Chuck Schumer suddenly decide that this is the moment he doesn't actually control the caucus. After an entire brand of decades built on his.

[Alex Wagner]

That rowdy Jean Shaheen.

[Morris Katz]

Yes, exactly.

[Alex Wagner]

Can't control her anymore.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah. Insane. And my favorite shutdown point, I think you actually are the person who said this, and I'm stealing this from you now, quoting it back to you, which I'm sure makes great content. Um, but was the, like, why aren't we owning the shutdown? Yeah, like, we should. We should have just from the start been like, yes, we are shutting the government down to keep your health care costs low, to keep you enrolled in health care and owned it. And from there, immediately we were in, like, an apologetic stance. And that's no way to start a fight. And then I think further, it kind of exists in this role. And I've been thinking about this a lot of we need to change who we are as a party in the way we think about government. It's like we still are in the era of big government is over phase and are apologetic about anything that government's doing. And then when you go into these conversations, it's like, our entire framing is, how can we delay government harm? How can we, you know, what's the least we can do to hurt working people? Instead of any kind of active vision for how these conversations should take place, this should be a conversation. What can we do to transform the lives of people? If you want to talk about SNAP benefits, let's talk about a plan to lift everyone up from having needing SNAP benefits in the first place. The idea that we, like, are winning something by potentially delaying and increasing a little bit of accountability to score electoral points on people losing their health care is indicative of a party without a vision.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I mean, I think you could also, like, just term it in really schoolyard dynamics, which is like, they've allowed themselves to be bullied into defense. Like, it's just you were part of. You are part of one campaign and you have been part of two campaigns that are remarkably on offense. Right. Zohar Mandani and Graham Platner and are kind of unapologetic in their stances, in all of their politics. And, you know, just as characters on the stage, there's very little kind of kneeling, if you will. I. I do have to ask you, though, given your cv, you know, you helped run the campaign of John Fetterman, who was one of the eight, who was, you know, an architect of this cave. And I wonder if you have thoughts about that and, like, whether there's Anything you can tell us about sort of how you look at that candidacy and the candidates you're working for or have worked for in the recent past?

[Morris Katz]

I think that John Fetterman ran to be the 51st vote. That was like the core line, the 51st vote to do all of these great things, not the 51st vote to side with Republicans, to take health care away from people. And I think that for a variety of reasons, like, I can't speak to what's happening governing. As I worked on the campaign, it feels like the governing has looked very different than the campaign. And I think that at the end of the day, Senator Fetterman is still someone who was a politician before running for office, who was, you know, not necessarily accepted by the political class, but had, you know, that complicated baggage and relationships with, with the political system and status quo politicians. And so I think there's like, I think the similarities between, like, Graham Platner and John Fetterman kind of end at them both having tattoos and occasionally wearing sweatshirts.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, right. But do you worry at all, though, that it's not a function of inherent, sort of like it's not a backbone that you're born with, it's one that develops as a result of your surroundings and your inputs. And like, once you get into actual governance, that atrophies. I mean, do you do. Is. I guess it's like nobody go. I mean, I guess maybe Fetterman went in there, like, I'm going to be the 51st vote. And like, that probably means I'm going to be, you know, at some points I'm going to be pulled to the right. I just. Very few people go in there to be moderates.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah, I think that's right. I do think that, like, there's the problem and I think everyone sees this. When you see these politicians go and they spend all day once they're in Washington just meeting with lobbyists, meeting with.

[Alex Wagner]

Donors, meeting with or meeting with each other. I mean, even if they're not taking, you know, money from lobbyists, they're spending a lot of time jabbering at each other.

[Morris Katz]

Absolutely. It's like, it is. Dan Osborne likes to say the Senate's a country club of millionaires who just do what billionaires tell them. And I think that it's absolutely correct. I think part of what we need more of is we need more reluctant candidates. Like I always say, if you're someone who wants to, to be in the United States Senate, you have something wrong with you. You should feel like this is the last thing I want to do, but I feel an obligation to go do it. And I think that kind of helps with that framing of if you go into the Senate kind of worshiping the altar of whatever the kind of institution of the Senate is, then you're very destined to fall into those traps you're laying. If you're someone who's going into it with the perspective of like, these are a bunch of fucking losers, and I'm embarrassed to be here, but I'm going to do my best, then I think we're starting something to work with.

[Alex Wagner]

God, that's so interesting because it's like, yeah, these are a bunch of losers. Which is kind of Trump's attitude to what towards the American public, but certainly towards his own party. Right? Like, you guys are a bunch of losers. You fucking need me, and you're welcome for everything I'm giving you. And it sounds like you think Democrats need to be less concerned about sort of being offensive and being, you know, disgusted at the dynamics within their own party.

[Morris Katz]

I mean, we have a party of people who, like, didn't sit at the cool kids table, and it comes through and we're haunted by it every single day in Washington. And then it's like, they now kind of think that this might be. And they're just, we're just happy to be here kind of mentality versus what the approach should be, which is like, this is a horrible place and I'm going to do everything in my power to change it. Change the way Lawson functions, change who we listen to, change the way we talk, change what we fight for.

[Alex Wagner]

I wanna ask you specifically about. You're, like, right in the thick of all of this, right? And you were senior advisor to the Mamdani campaign. You guys were right at the crosshairs of the Democratic establishment being, you know, proving their own irrelevance. It took so long to get leadership, Democratic leadership in Congress and Democratic leadership from New York State to come on board. Did that matter to you? Or you were like, oh, yeah, we're just. We're not being kept up at night due to a lack of a Hakeem Jeffries not endorsement.

[Morris Katz]

It was. I was certainly not. I was losing sleep for a lot of reasons. The lack of a Hakeem Jeffries endorsement was not one of them. I think we saw. And this is like a broader thing that applies to a lot of the way we talk about these different races. And the progressive wing of the party is, you know, in our polling zone, was more popular in a general election. Electorate than a lot of these individuals who the kind of pundit class was obsessed with how they were going to move or not.

[Hasan Piker]

And.

[Morris Katz]

And we see the same thing with the way Bernie Sanders is talked about, with the way AOC is talked about. When you look at the actual polling, they're far more popular. And even, like, you know, certain it's been floated, the concept of, like, oh, leadership, standing up because Zoran's a liability. And swing districts, Zaun is more popular than the very people making those decisions to not want to be tagged with him. Like, if someone's going to want to run an effective attack ad in a swing district, they're going to run it. Tying the candidate to Chuck Schumer, not tying the candidate to Zoram Donni via Chuck Schumer. And I think there's kind of this myth that's really just people telling on themselves for their discomfort with a candidate that doesn't reflect the will of the people. But we also saw in the Democratic primary, historic turnout, a historic margin of victory in the face of a Democratic establishment that decided they were comfortable embracing a sexual predator who covered up the murder of a bunch of seniors. Yet Muslim Democratic Socialist was a step too far.

[Alex Wagner]

I got it. I mean, we're looking in the past with Mamdani. He obviously won by a large margin and is gonna be the next mayor of New York City. You're also working on the Graham Platner campaign. And when we talk about Democrats being free to be themselves, being unabashed in the mistakes they've made and embracing the mistakes they've made and know, presenting themselves to the American public, warts and all, as sort of, like, indicator of conviction. My question to you is, is there a line like, do you, first of all, can you be too precious about a Nazi tattoo?

[Morris Katz]

Well, look what it is. When he got it, you know, thinking it was a skull and crossbones tattoo. And obviously there's been a lot that's kind of, you know, discourse that's taken place around it. And he's gotten the tattoo covered up and, you know, apologized for Reddit statements and any hurt that could have come from the tattoo. But I think the kind of where I come down on this is I think Graham Platner would be an unbelievable U.S. senator. I think he will be an unbelievable U.S. senator. I think he's a voice we need in the party. And I also think we need to move past the place where someone like me should be allowed to decide if Graham Platner is electable. And I think we have this, like, backroom, this culture of backroom politics in the party where it tends to be five assholes in Washington deciding who's electable, who's a good candidate in Maine. And, like, why are we going to let the same people who picked Sarah Gideon to lose by 12 points tell us who our nominees should be this time? Like, that's an insane theory. And if people think it's unelectable, then it's this good thing that we have Democratic primaries where voters can tell us what they think about it. And the idea of it's just, to me, it's so deeply condescending to voters for Washington to try to dictate electability concerns and that that's where so much of it's coming from.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. For people who are unfamiliar, Janet Mills, the governor of the state, is the pick of Chuck Schumer and much of the Democratic establishment because they think she's a formidable fighter, which, with all due respect, she did, you know, come for Trump inside the White House and said, I'll see you in court. And that was a badass moment. And it's in a campaign, Adam, but is seen, you know, that race is equally seen as one of sort of like the centrist, established moderates versus the upstart, the insurgent, and someone with complicated past, if not a checkered past. And I guess, you know, you say that the Democratic primary voters should be the ones to decide, but do you think we are at a moment right now where Democrats generally need to and can get more comfortable with offense, both like the. The posture and being offended?

[Morris Katz]

Absolutely. I think people are looking and craving authenticity, and there's just more transparency that's required than ever before in running for office. And no one is perfect, and no one expects authenticity to mean that someone has never made a mistake, that someone has never said something they don't regret. And especially as we have a new generation that's going to start running, where so much of it is going to be online, so much of it's going to be captured somewhere on some platform. And I think people want to see themselves reflected in those seeking to represent them. And people are self aware enough to know that they too have said things they regret, that they too have gone through dark periods. You know, Graham has talked about a lot of this in the context of his ptsd, in the context of his depression, this being not the person he is anymore. And, and people see that and they see, you know, whether they said the same things or got the same tattoos, they see a sense of they see their own themselves in that, the things that they wish they hadn't said, their own moments of struggle. And I think that's a politics we can all be excited about, particularly when like every editorial page wants to write 90 papers on how do we win back young men who are, you know, the right is taking on online platforms and other places. And Graham is literally this person who was in those places, who was on those Reddit threads, who's come out the other side, who's uniquely equipped to communicate on these things, to be a messenger to bring those people back. And we shouldn't be apologetic about having candidates who've evolved, who've changed, and who can build the very coalitions we claim we want to.

[Alex Wagner]

I guess I wonder whether that's, I mean, so you're saying voters crave authenticity, they crave shared experience or people who can speak to the like lives that they've lived. But I also feel like it's a requirement in the age of Trump. Right? Like, if you're gonna punch the bully in the nose, you gotta know how to take a swing, to use a very heavy handed metaphor. You know what I mean? Like, you gotta be able to just like live with the consequences of your action and not feel actions and not feel apologetic about them in order to take on what is the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime and probably in, you know, modern American history.

[Morris Katz]

Absolutely. I think like Graham has to stick with our schoolyard bully metaphor, which we're really leaning into here. And I think like, Graham is someone who would, would kick the shit out of Donald Trump and would not do it to make friends, would not do it because he thought he could not get in trouble, would do it because he thought it's the right thing to do. And I think that that's what people can, that authenticity comes through. And, and just the reality is most people who are like that are also not people who when they were 7, thought that they wanted to be a U.S. senator. And so we just need to decide, like, are we going to allow the U.S. senate and our party to continue to be run by people who were too busy planning their presidential campaigns to sit at the quilt kids table, or are we okay having some, like, real people who actually have lived real lives run for office, knowing that that doesn't mean everything's been perfect.

[Alex Wagner]

Right. Who weren't trying to sit at the cool kids table, who were like outside, I don't know, setting cars on fire or something? Would you do that in high school? I don't know. I just I wonder, in the context of the shutdown and the fallout out of the shutdown, what do you think needs to happen inside Democratic ranks? I think you told the New York Times that the general election campaign for Mamdani was a story of a constant friction between trying to unite a party and not lose a populist edge. I wonder if there's just not that there's an inherent contradiction in all of that and whether these things can all exist under the same tent, you know, like, do you think Chuck Schumer is going to be the minority leader for much longer? Do you. I mean, like, how do you. How do you have a group of people who are so loathe to be confrontational that they will not sacrifice anything that they. I mean, Drake Durbin voted to end the shutdown. He's leaving the Senate. Right. Like, it would have been the easiest thing in the world for him to just sit on the sidelines. Right. How do you have a party that can be at once, you know, aggressive and authentic and truly itself, warts and all, and sort of a governing structure that is steeped in right and tradition and moderation.

[Morris Katz]

So, like, if I was able to control the powers of bnbc, which I know now in some ways, I guess infamously cannot, I would have had. I would have called Bernie and Elizabeth Warren and AOC and these people who can draw huge crowds and said, let's take this tour on the road together as a united Democratic front and talk about what is on the line with this shutdown and make our case to the American public. And I would have, you know, if I'm them, I would have asked for Chuck Schumer to be there, for Dick Durbin to be there and. And see, like, control the narrative. And I think what happened here is you saw no one step up other than, like, Senator Sanders tried, a few tried, but there was no coherent message unifying the Democrats in their opposition, which makes it so easy to fold when there's nothing kind of holding you up. And instead, if we were having rallies with 40,000 people every three days talking about the Republican assault on health care, then you have a party united. And, like, one thing politicians love is big crowds and TV cameras. And when you have 50,000 people chanting, you know, don't end the shutdown or whatever.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, that. Or stand tall. Or stand tall.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah, like, that gives the backbone. But because we don't have. Because we treat our most popular leaders like they're plights on the party, then we leave ourselves devoid of any vision or of any backbone.

[Alex Wagner]

They can still do that. I mean, they. By the way, the healthcare issue hasn't been resolved and maybe it's not Chuck Schumer who's out there, but I'm of the mind that they should be going on the road and they should be talking about Trump and his cruelty and sadism as it concerns the health and welfare and financial stability of the American people, like, all the time. They have practical example when they get their healthcare premium bills next January. So it's not like the. The historians.

[Hasan Piker]

No.

[Morris Katz]

And I think it's also something they don't understand about modern media, where those rallies aren't just rallies that then go on cable news and broadcast news and show mass support for the messaging. It becomes 50,000 different hits. Everyone in their phone has a phone up, clips it. It's on TikTok, it's on Instagram, it's in the algorithm, it's going viral. People are seeing it everywhere. And you create an echo chamber of your message. Instead of like the DC messaging strategy, which is like, you know, give a press conference every day and take like, a weak swing at Trump with, like, you know, and hand out some fact sheets to the, like, you know, D.C. press corps, which isn't exactly the kind of a meet the moment strategy of persuasion.

[Alex Wagner]

Maybe they need to do, like a health care premiums, like, scavenger hunt. I'm just borrowing from Mom Donnie tactic during the 2025 campaign. Morris Katz explaining to Democrats what the fuck is wrong with them and what the fuck they need to start doing. We'll see. If they, like, take you up on any of it.

[Morris Katz]

They can join us at the cool kids table.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I'm definitely like, I'm in detention probably. If we're talking about where everybody. That's not true. I was a nerd. I was probably in study hall, not even eating, just starving, eating the food of academia, whatever that means. I'm sorry that this was so filled with schoolyard metaphors, Morris, but, you know, I appreciate you playing ball, so to speak.

[Morris Katz]

Absolutely. Thanks so much, Alex.

[Alex Wagner]

Thanks for coming on the show.

[Morris Katz]

I appreciate it.

[Alex Wagner]

When we come back, we are going to put all of this in context with Hasan Piker and ask if anyone's ready to punch the bullies in the nose. Proverbially speaking. Runaway country is brought to you by Fable. As someone who actually uses the things in my home every day, I've gotten pickier about what stays on my table. Seriously, if there's like a mismatched mug I don't need, I don't want it. Throw it away. I want unified tableware. I want it to look good. I want it to be functional. I kind of want it to be Fable. Fable makes modern minimalist homeware that is actually built to last. Think beautiful ceramics that are dishwasher safe, non toxic, ethically made and surprisingly sturdy. I say that with a six and eight year old in my house. They partner with artisans in Portugal and use recycled and locally sourced clay. So it's not just good looking, it's good for the planet too. Even takeout looks better on these plates. I can vouch for that. If you're hosting this season or just elevating your everyday meals, this is an easy way to make things feel more special. Fable's glassware is just as thoughtfully made. It's made in Japan and even though it's super thin, sort of terrifyingly super thin and lightweight, it happens to be ion toughened, which means it's nearly twice as durable as typical glass. And it is scratch resistant. It's non toxic, it's dishwasher safe.

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Holla.

[Alex Wagner]

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[Laci Mosley]

I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We we got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcast.

[Alex Wagner]

As the Democratic Party managed some internal combustion this week, the Republican Party was experiencing a watershed moment of its own. Tucker Carlson, the Wizard of Oz for the gop, who hosts one of the most popular conservative podcasts in the country, had far right activist Nick Fuentes on a show for a very friendly interview.

[Hasan Piker]

I'm sorry I called you gay by the way. But I'm always. I think I'm just too old or something. I'm like, why is anyone married? You tell me. Why isn't. Why aren't people married?

[Nick Fuentes]

Well, I mean, honestly, it's the women. The women are extremely liberal. No one talks about that. They're increasingly. They do. Especially after the last election. There's a 45 point difference between men and women. The men are extremely conservative. Increasingly, the women are extremely liberal.

[Hasan Piker]

What are they liberal on what issues? Like, what does that mean, liberal?

[Nick Fuentes]

Oh, on, on. They're very feminist. Like actually extremely feminist.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

They don't believe that, do they?

[Nick Fuentes]

I think they do. Really? Absolutely, yes.

[Morris Katz]

Believe that.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, Nobody knows the inside of a woman's brain like Nick Fuentes. Now, for those of you fortunate enough not to be familiar with this man, here's just a taste.

[Nick Fuentes]

Hitler was a pedophile and kind of a pagan. It's like, well, he was also really cool. You know, enough with the Jim Crow stuff. Who cares? Oh, to drink out of a different water fountain.

[Hasan Piker]

Big deal.

[Nick Fuentes]

People would say, are you against all immigration or just for non white people? And you'd say, no, no, I think we should have no immigration from anywhere. Even from what? It's just enough. And now it's kind of like, no, we could use some more white people.

[Alex Wagner]

If you find those views appalling, then you may be surprised to learn that the president of the Heritage foundation think tank, which is a pillar of the Republican establishment, the president resolutely and repeatedly defended Tucker Carlson for platforming Fuentes.

[Hasan Piker]

The Heritage foundation didn't become the intellectual backbone of the conservative movement by canceling.

[Nick Fuentes]

Our own people or policing the consciences of Christians.

[Alex Wagner]

Hmm. All of this didn't so much set off as it did expose a schism within the Republican Party between those outraged that a neo Nazi is making moves towards becoming a legitimate voice in the movement and everyone else who is either scared of getting on Tucker Carlson's bad side or actually agrees with him and Nick Fuentes. Our second guest, Hasan Piker, believes that anti Semitism and maybe bigotry more broadly is intrinsic to the goals of the right. And a party that has shown a weakness for strong men and a real desire to platform bullies is now getting mighty friendly with an ideology that only a few years ago was. Was synonymous with pure evil. Here's my conversation with Hasan Piker at CrookedCon in Washington, DC. Thanks for doing this.

[Hasan Piker]

Of course. Thank you for having me.

[Alex Wagner]

I've been thinking about you in the context of some of the news we've gotten recently, particularly around. I don't know if you've been following what's going on at the Heritage Foundation.

[Hasan Piker]

Oh, I've been following.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

I've, I'm. Ooh, it's incredible.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

I love right wing infighting. This is what, this is the most dangerous type of right wing infighting though. Cause it does seem like it's the inevitable forces of anti Semitism are winning. Yeah, but you know, it's still, I'm still in a let them fight position right now.

[Alex Wagner]

Seems bad. Let's let them stay at it.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, good, good. Keep, keep having these arguments.

[Alex Wagner]

You were on NPR talking about just how much Nazism and antisemitism is legitimately sort of like organizing principle on the far right with younger white conservatives. And I kind of wonder between what's happening at Heritage, the text messages between young Republican leaders talking about Hitler, Trump's nominees saying he has, you know, Nazi tendencies. Can you, like, first of all, I'm sure you feel validated.

[Hasan Piker]

I thought you were talking about JD Vance for a second.

[Alex Wagner]

It's hard to know.

[Hasan Piker]

Were you talking about RFK Jr. Hard to know who said Trump has Nazi tendencies. Cuz they both did that big tent.

[Alex Wagner]

Can you talk a little bit about what you think that's about?

[Hasan Piker]

I mean, yeah, this is like the most principled maximalist position of reactionary politics is always inevitably going to arrive at fascism. That's what it is. If we are to assume that the left flank position in this country in its most like, aggressive version or its logical conclusion is like something resembling socialism on socialist principles, even though the Democratic Party is a liberal party, and I think it is inherently antagonistic towards that, the maximalist position of right wing forces is inevitably going to be fascism. Fascism restores stability and order without actually harming the material pecking order in terms of the class structure that exists under capitalism. The wealthy continue to retain their wealth, of course, as long as they don't end up in this expansionist, endless militarism. And then they end up failing by force, as we've seen. But that is at the heart of fascism and that has always been at the heart of the Republican Party. And for years and years, I think people said, oh, you're exaggerating. Oh, you're exaggerating. And, and the reality of the matter is that that is the fundamental organizing principle of white supremacy and that has played a major role in the Republican Party. So it was an inevitability that we were right of at this moment. And so that's where we're at now.

[Alex Wagner]

So you're saying it's kind of foundational to conservatism. Right. And maybe has been for decades. But it feels like this current iteration of especially young people embracing it, maybe the gateway drug was like, own the libs. Say the most offensive thing you can, which is like, praise for Hitler, praise for Nazis. See if you can get a reaction. But what seems now clear is that it's not just about owning the libs anymore. It really is about a fundamental, like, interest in, if not actual embrace of the Third Reich.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

What, like, first of all, what do you think the conversation around that should be from progressives and Democrats who are, I think, rightfully alarmed about a sizable portion of the Republican Party being enamored of Hitler?

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. So this is something I've been ringing the alarm bells on for quite a while. I think my thing was, like, any Republican staffer under the age of 35 is usually gonna be a groiper or going to have at least some kind of sympathies towards, like, historical fascist movements. Right. And we saw that with, like, the Ron DeSantis campaign, for example. Like, Ron DeSantis was supposed to be the establishment Republican answer to Donald Trump and Trumpism in general. They were fearful that he was causing there to be some electoral defeats when he was on the ticket. Right. Or at least was, like, associated with a ticket. And the Koch brothers, Koch brother and the rest of the establishment on the Republican side tried to find an answer in Ron DeSantis. It was a failure. But even then, his campaign was staffed with young Republicans that were putting the Sonnenrad on the black sun, which is Nazi symbolism, on the background of his campaign material. It was insane.

[Morris Katz]

Right.

[Hasan Piker]

So they've been actively trying to do subtle nods and gestures in that direction for quite a while, but now there's an open embrace of it. And I think part of that is because of Israel, for sure. And the other reason why there's an open embrace of it is because if your movement revolves around constantly saying the most heinous thing you could possibly say, and that's your ideological movement.

[Morris Katz]

Right?

[Hasan Piker]

That's at the heart of your ideological movement, whether it be black people, brown people, why did anybody think that, like, Jews would be spared in that situation? Like, of course, they're going to inevitably tackle that aspect of it as well. Which is why I've always been shocked by the likes of Mark Levin, David Horowitz, Ben Shapiro, conservative Jews that have been at the. At the heart of this movement or even like the entirety of the neocon class that thought that if they just hyper focused on Islamophobia and justify the war on terror by doing that, that no one would actually ever turn around and be like, hold on, you're also not like a white Christian.

[Alex Wagner]

Exactly.

[Hasan Piker]

Especially because it's the oldest version of bigotry. It's the most resilient, most successful version of bigotry that it always blew my mind. The reason why I bring up Mark Levin is because Nick Fuentes did the Tucker Carlson interview. And I think that's more so just a signal that this is the Republican Party basically heading in that direction. This is their version of populism. And in that interview, Nick Fuentes actually said, I learned about the great Replacement from Mark Levin. And it's like, mark, who do you think the Nazis blamed for that? They blamed the Jews. Big dog, why did you think that this wasn't inevitably going to turn on you?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, some people have asked, oh, is this the schism inside the Republican Party? And I would ask you, what's on the other side of it? Like, what's the counterpoint to the fascist tendencies inside the Republican Party? Because I certainly don't see it.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, because you can't build a movement where you're like, we only, we hate DEI except for Jews. Like, you can't do that because that comes across as like insane to the average onlooker. Right. You're like, what am I supposed to, what am I supposed to think? I'm a, I'm a white boy, corn fed Arkansas. Okay? And I'm looking at the television, I'm seeing stuff on my social media feed where it's like, this is crazy, this is heinous. What's going on in Gaza? And then I'm looking at the TV and I'm like, I'm a Trump voter. And I, you know, I loved everything that he was saying about like, you know, brown people being scary and killing people, black people being dangerous, low iq, all this stuff. But then that same administration is turning around and being like, except if you say anything about Israel, not even about Jewish people in general, but just about Israel, we will deport you. Then you go, okay, that doesn't make any sense. And if there's already a nascent, existing, long standing version of antisemitism that says, like, Jews control the organs of power, the media, the banking system and all this stuff, you're gonna find yourself thinking that that ideology is correct. We've pushed people basically to this position with the way that we have refused to acknowledge some of these issues.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, a lot of this comes up in the context of young white men being very embracing of fascism. And we talk about the manosphere as kind of a separate realm. But I wonder if you see a handshake between this kind of, like, masculinity that is championed on the right and, like, whether there's a cross pollination with, like, fascist tendencies or how you see that. Like, what is it about Nazism or fascism that is so attractive to men who seem lost and in need of, like, identity? I mean, I guess I'm answering. I actually feel like I know what the answer to this is. But, like, can you separate the two? Can there be, like. I mean. Cause you. You talk a lot about masculinity and people look to you towards, like, an altern, a form of masculinity that doesn't play footsie with fascism.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And I kind of wonder, like, okay, so unwind that a little bit for me. And like, how do you kind of be relevant in the manosphere and reject those tenets?

[Hasan Piker]

I think it stems from insecurity.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

It's a lot of the dispossessed masses that are seeking answers. And a lot of insecure men have been able to basically shift their attention over to some form of systemic analysis that takes away responsibility from them by finding different targets. It's feminism. It's women in general that have wronged you. It's a sense of entitlement not meeting and the expectations that you have not meeting with the reality that you're experiencing. And in that moment of crisis, in that moment of conflict, a lot of young men find themselves seeking out answers. And because the media environment is so heavily polluted with people that say, yes, you are actually worthy, you were supposed to be the great dominator. And they took that away from you. Who took that away from you? Trans people, women, feminism, brown people, the liberal elites, and yes, brown people as well. And they try to reconstruct a almost nationalistic mythos in the same exact way that fascist movements did at a time when there was tremendous economic hardship, where you had a bunch of veterans, right, that went and fought this war, this great war that they weren't getting their pensions and they were treated as outsiders in their own countries when they'd actually lost so much. They'd seen tremendous hardship and tremendous violence. And then they come back and they felt rudderless. And these movements were like, no, we are a great nation. It's a heightened sense of self that you create in your own mind. If you're like an insecure guy. If you feel weak in your real life, you feel lost, then you want someone to tell you you're not actually weak, you're strong by definition because you're a fascist. Or by definition you're strong because you're right wing. A lot of these guys are not. It's actually from a place of tremendous weakness that, that causes them to feel like, oh well, if I say the right things, if I find myself in the throes of this like manosphere adjacent movement, then I can, at least on the Internet, which is where I spend most of my time, I can feel like I am a part of this like broader, almost militant movement.

[Alex Wagner]

It's owning the libs and calling them snowflakes and trolling them on like sort of like Hitler memes is one way of feeling like increasing your own sense of. And like you're like in the. It sounds stupid, but that's right, you're the aggressor. And then as it happens, the ideology that undergirds the like embrace of Hitler also helps make small people feel bigger and at the expense of the people who are deemed second class citizens in that ideology. Yeah, I do wonder though, like, what's the proper response? Because on some level it's like the initial form of this is them trying to bait the libs right into getting like all in a tizzy and getting all twisted about it. And so what is the correct response to it? Like from an online perspective?

[Hasan Piker]

I think it must be fought diligently and militantly if it's necessary. Especially when there is like the threat of violent force. Right. Like there needs to be a defensive posture against that. And I think like social stigma plays a role in this that we are too afraid to say. It plays a formative role in this. But social stigma is I think a good easy tool to apply in this situation where like that's weird. Like you're being, you're, you're being a weirdo for being invested in this stuff. Like you're odd.

[Alex Wagner]

But like J.D. vance was like, why are you giving. These kids are joking around. Like I don't wanna live in a country where people can't say Hitler is awesome. I mean, I kind of do and live in the country, but he doesn't. And like they're sort of making it an issue of free speech. Right? Like they can make jokes, they can like, you know, play footsie with these ideas, but like none of this is serious. And then it becomes liberals on the defense about political correctness or Free speech or whatever.

[Hasan Piker]

I don't think this is necessarily even about political correctness. It's more so just like, is this what we wanna do? Is this a country that we wanna live in? Cause jokes are fine and a lot of context and nuance gets lost. I think one of the things that I do in my community is like, I try to create a relatively safer space, but it's still a learning environment, it's dynamic. There's people of all different backgrounds coming in and saying whatever they wanna do, whatever they want to say. And therefore there are going to be instances of like microaggression, things of that nature. But I also want to always maintain that like you can be a progressive force in this country, but also still be fun to be able to sometimes even ridicule your opponents or make fun of them.

[Alex Wagner]

Like when you were like, I hate Republicans.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, but it's true. But like there's some truth to that. But I'm also like, you know, obviously joking. And the thing is, when you do that, the same reactionary forces that sit around and say we love free speech will then very quickly turn around and demand your de platforming. I on the left get. There's so much advocacy around trying to deplatform me all the time. And it's oftentimes by the right. It's most commonly by the right. Like the whole even The America deserved 911 moment, right from 2019, where I'm talking about the concept of blowback, but of course I'm, you know, not using the best language to describe the situation, was an initiative that was, you know, that, that made its way to Fox News and Fox News was doing 48 hour news coverage on it. They're still doing it six years later because, you know, the Cuomo campaign decided this was a viable line of attack. America deserved 9 11.

[Interviewer/Host]

Dude, that's Zoran's buddy Hassan Piker saying.

[Alex Wagner]

We deserve 9 11.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's a disgrace to every life lost.

[Hasan Piker]

It was not. It was a major failure, which I could have told them they should have given me the $3.5 million instead.

[Alex Wagner]

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. Andrew Cuomo.

[Morris Katz]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Shouts out to Michael Bloomberg for that one and also the other major donors. But what is that if not the exact same thing that conservatives rail against?

[Alex Wagner]

There is this snowflake thing really is applicable way more to the right at this point than the left.

[Hasan Piker]

But that's all always been the case. Cancel Culture was so successfully presented as this like leftist liberal thing, when in fact both sides always do it. And they always weaponize it against their ideological opponents. But I think there was only one side that was actually taking ownership over it and that was the liberals. And therefore a lot of people in the margins, a lot of people that are self described apolitical, don't care about politics, saw that and were like, yeah, you're right, the SJW own compilations do show this imbalance. Where it is the left that's trying to cancel it is the left that is like the hr. And that did create a lot of animosity towards whatever is the left.

[Alex Wagner]

More of my conversation with Hasan Piker after this break. Runaway country is brought to you by ZBiotics. Your gut is gearing up for the real challenge. I know mine is Thanksgiving feasting, festive cocktails, little cranberry vodka, and the just one more toasts that come with the holiday season. That is why I have stocked up on Zebiotics Pre Alcohol zbiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it when you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct and not dehydration that is to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you will feel your best tomorrow. I gotta say, I am gearing up for the holidays. It's something we do. I'm not one of those people that puts a Christmas Tree out on November 1st, but we like a celebration in the Wagner house. We like festivity. We like a celebratory pop of champagne here and there. We like inviting friends over for drinks. We like, you know, we like a a dip. And in preparation for all this holiday festivities, I have also stocked up on prebiotics. I'm not even kidding. I might put them on ice and serve them like a cute Pre app app. Just because I want everybody to feel good the next day and be a functional adult the next day. I know I want to be a functional adult for real. Whether you are raising a glass on Turkey day, whether you are catching up with old friends, or just winding down with a glass of wine after a long week, that next morning still matters. So do not forget to drink a pre alcohol. Go to ZBiotics.com Alex to learn more and get 15% off your first order. When you use Alex at checkout, Zebiotics is backed with a 100% money back guarantee. So if you are unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com Alex and use the code Alex at checkout for 15% off.

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin listeners? I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammers, scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know, they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alex Wagner]

I gotta ask you, because we were talking about Nazis in the left and the right versus the left, but like, do you have thoughts on Graham Platner and his tattoo?

[Hasan Piker]

Oh my God, I don't even know where to begin with that one. So Graham Platner is a very unique case, at least from my perspective, because he is a through and through Bernie Crat, right? Like he is a Bernie hand selected pick who was running for office. And right out of the gates he was like, I'm anti Israel. I don't think we should be giving weapons to Israel. I don't think we should be doing anything with Israel if they're gonna continue doing a genocide, right? And that was a unique position. And then on top of that, he was pro Medicare for all and numerous other Bernie style positions. And what was interesting to me about that whole saga is that in spite of him being like very obviously a grunt force machine gunner for the Marines, which are sometimes known as crayon eaters for good reason. He went on shore leaving Croatia and Split and got the most obvious Nazi tattoo, the third most common Nazi symbol, a Totenkov on his chest. In spite of that, Maynard seemingly didn't care about that situation at all. And I think that's a really interesting moment in American politics for where the liberal base is moving because for far too long, I think the organs that work alongside the Democratic Party that are like liberal adjacent or left adjacent, whatever you want to call it, have often weaponized a version of identity against the left flank, right, while simultaneously telling their audiences that electability actually revolves around moderates. Moderate positions are how you win. And this is actually a real battle that is still currently taking place within the Democratic Party. The welcome PAC piece that came out, the welcome PAC report that came out was again, another version of this exact same thing. And I don't think liberals are responding to that electability argument. Or rather, I think they think now after failure, after failure from the moderates, especially the second failure against Donald Trump, again, an incompetent, monstrous fascist, they realize, like, no, maybe the left flank, left populist position is the actual electability argument. And maybe we were deluded.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, but like, okay, so, but you.

[Hasan Piker]

So they're giving a lot of grace to Graham Platner is what I'm saying.

[Alex Wagner]

And I think Graham Platner has handled it basically as well as you can, which is another model of how the left can understand people's flaws and how you can own the mistakes you made in life and how they made you who you are today and arguably a better person. But like, just like, as you say, one of the top three Nazi tattoos, like, does that. Is that. Fuck, is that not fucked up?

[Hasan Piker]

Like, no, I think it is.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, what. So are liberals just becoming more okay with that? And, like, is that a problem?

[Hasan Piker]

So there's, there's two things that I think about in that regard. I think that we'll see. Because we saw it with Zoram Hamdani, right?

[Alex Wagner]

Like, and I want to talk to you about that.

[Hasan Piker]

A lot of, A lot of liberals were very forgiving of, like, the, the faucet of misinformation and, and angry lines of attack that were completely, in my opinion, unjustifiable and outright racist at times. Like, the notion that he is like a scary anti Semite is honestly an incredibly permissible form of bigotry. Like, institutionally permissible form of bigotry. The assumption that he's gonna be anti Semitic, he's anti Israel, he's Muslim, come on. And these are very real fears. We don't treat white supremacy in that same vein. If someone were to say, as a white Christian, as many have, I think, like, desegregation is a real problem. I think that I don't want my children to live in a racial jungle. We would be like, okay, that's your problem. Like, you need to deal with that on your own. But in this circumstance, because Jews are also a marginalized identity in the United States of America, and there is a lot of historic violence towards Jewish people on the virtue of being Jewish, that there is this conversation that takes Place where we place a lot of emphasis on whether or not there's this broad majority of Jewish people that are truly terrified of Zoram Hamdani because he's seemingly considered to be anti Semitic. And I think that's genuinely a racist position to apply to someone like Zoram Hamdani. I think it's ridiculous. He's done nothing and said nothing that is even remotely anti Semitic.

[Alex Wagner]

And yet he staked out a position on Gaza that is comports, that is not in favor of what Israel is doing. But that does not mean he is an anti Semite.

[Hasan Piker]

And here I'll give you an example. Sometimes I like to think about it as like, if Zoran was like a white Christian guy or a Jewish guy and he was saying that, would these arguments stick?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Would there be this much? I mean, look at Grant Planner. He's a fucking Totemkopf tattoo.

[Morris Katz]

This is amazing.

[Hasan Piker]

And even then people are like, not even making that argument. Right.

[Alex Wagner]

Give him a pass.

[Hasan Piker]

So my point is like, that is institutionalized Islamophobia. That is a big part of it. I don't like to talk about it too much because it's like a lot of people tap out when they hear that and they're like, I don't wanna hear this. Whatever, here we go again. But the reason why I'm saying it here is that we shall see if the liberals are more forgiving of guys like Graham Platner because he's a white dude and they think that is like the primary version of electability for liberals in general. Or is it because he came out of the gay swingin with very leftist like left flank policies and that's the reason why they're forgiving of him. And I think the contest I'm paying close attention to is Abdul El Sayed, a person who has none of the red flags whatsoever. Another person that basically has an infallible reputation and has actually more experience in politics as well. He's run for the governors. He failed to defeat. I think it was Whitmer that he failed to defeat on a Medicare for all campaign. And he is the real deal. Right? And he's also another early Bernie pick. He's also anti Zionist. We shall see if liberals are just as forgiving of a brown guy that is running on a very similar campaign to Graham Platner.

[Alex Wagner]

Without the tattoo.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, without the Nazi tattoo. But he's a brown guy. Does that mean that it's like scarier? My point is, is a white dude with a Nazi tattoo.

[Alex Wagner]

We know the answer, don't we?

[Hasan Piker]

Well, I. I think we know the answer. No, I don't.

[Alex Wagner]

As a brown person, I think I know the answer.

[Hasan Piker]

No, I think that's defeatist and that's. I don't abide by that. I try. I recognize that there's a hurdle, right? There's a hurdle, there's a higher threshold, but you can climb it. And you can make up for that higher threshold by instilling messaging discipline and being and then not stepping on any landmines to the best of your ability. And also just focusing on issues that the largest base actually care about. That's why I always say send it to the working class. Because the working class, even if they don't self identify as the working class, are the largest group in this country. They're the 99%.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, and that's what Mamdani did, right?

[Morris Katz]

Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

And I know you've been critical of traditional media that's focused on his kind of charisma and his communication strategy and. Well, his campaign infrastructure, I think is absolutely a legit thing to focus on. I guess the. And that, you know, people haven't focused enough on the issues that he, first of all, the big ideas he had, the innovative ideas, the issues policy itself, and that, that was the thing that actually won him the mayorship. But I do wonder, as we sit here and try and figure out the secret sauce for reclaiming the country, wasn't it necessary to have someone who was young and charismatic and great on messaging to deliver that baseline message? Doesn't that stuff. Ma, I mean, I don't mean to sound shallow.

[Hasan Piker]

No, aesthetics matter. They do big time.

[Alex Wagner]

Don't you?

[Hasan Piker]

But again, we go back to the aesthetics that are positive. Right? The optics that were positive. He's young, he's vibrant, he's dynamic, and he's a great orator. Right. But also he was visibly Muslim. He was brown, he's Muslim, he's socialist. These are things that are supposed to be major hangups, right? These are things that the DCCC is never going to look at. They're like, get out of here, you're done. Right. And yet he had to actually overcome this incredibly crowded primary field with other candidates that were pretty good too. But again, he had to climb these additional hurdles and he did it successfully. So it's not impossible. Yeah, it is real.

[Alex Wagner]

Just a 2000 generation. Talented.

[Hasan Piker]

No, but sometimes you gotta be that person, is what I mean. I think, like, I had this issue with Kamala Harris quite a bit. I talked to some of my wonderful friends who would always talk about like, well, it's misogyny, it's misogynoir, it's white supremacy. Like they just did not want a black woman in a position of power. And there's truth to that, of course. Anti blackness is fundamental in this country's politics.

[Alex Wagner]

So is misogyny.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, and so is misogyny, of course. And that didn't mean that it was impossible. Cuz the alternative to that is then we only have to run white guys and I don't care.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I think some people think that's the answer.

[Hasan Piker]

No, but I think that's ridiculous. We have to drop that idea in its entirety. We have to be much more forgiving and we have to be more open minded because America is an incredibly diverse country. And there was also a black man whose middle name was Hussein that was able to also win with a broad populist message as well, and also stake his campaign around being against the Iraq war in 2007, in 2008.

[Alex Wagner]

We'll be back with even more of my conversation with Hasan Piker after this quick break. This podcast is supported by the Defending Our Neighbors Fund. Across the country, immigrants are facing family separation, wrongful detention and deportation without due process or access to legal support. In 2024 alone, there were more than 2.5 million immigration court cases without legal representation. That means millions of people were denied the most basic protection we expect from our justice system, the right to a fair process. Powered by people like you, the Defending Our Neighbors Fund is providing access to life saving legal aid to families in crisis. But they urgently need your help to meet unprecedented demand. The government is pouring billions of taxpayer dollars into enforcement while slashing funding for legal aid. And that makes your support more urgent than ever. Help defend your neighbors and keep families together. Donate now at defendingourneighbors.org fund what's Poppin listeners?

[Laci Mosley]

I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We we got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcast.

[Alex Wagner]

I do wonder, though the country feels like, it's. You know, in a conversation with Barack Obama last night, you know, the country's changed so much and everything from the information, the bifurcation of information systems to tech, to what Trump's done, to the national conversation and the sense of unity that I wonder how an Obama candidacy would even work in this day and age. You know, But I think Mamdani. I do want to get back to Mamdani's.

[Hasan Piker]

I think it would be like a Mamdani movie.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I mean, I think. Which is way more. I think the Mamdani campaign is way more out front on complicated. Like, Obama didn't want to have to talk about race until he was forced to by the right wing. Right.

[Hasan Piker]

Of course. No, no, that. I mean, neither did Mamdani. Yeah, Mamdani did not. Like, it was obvious that he's Muslim and he would, like, target that base, but there was never a moment where. There was never really a moment until the very last faucet of Islamophobia where he put his foot down and said, like, guys, what are we doing here? Like, this is ridiculous. You're not only harming me, you're not only attacking me, you're attacking one in eight New Yorkers that are also Muslim by constantly associating us with, like, terrorism, with 9, 11, with Islamophobia of this sort. This is ridiculous. And I think that he waited until the very last moment, just like Barack Obama did, because if you come out of the gay swinging with that, that's gonna be the entire campaign.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, he came out swinging with democratic socialism, and that was, like, enough of a left hook. But, I mean, I guess. I wonder in the context of this conversation we're having about the left and masculinity and you know, how out front you can be on issues that are complicated. We know from exit polling that Mamdani did incredibly well with young men. And I wonder, as we try and.

[Hasan Piker]

Understand, plus 40, right?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, plus 40. And also, even Abigail Spanberger and Mikey Sherrill did better with men. But let's focus on Mamdani for a second. Cause he is the man in the race. And I wonder what kind of, like. Describe to me what kind of masculinity you think he represents.

[Hasan Piker]

I mean, I think he's just a guy. He's just a guy that you can hang with. And there are many people like him out there of all different backgrounds, shapes, colors, sizes. And that's what it is like.

[Alex Wagner]

He's authentically himself. Is that the key?

[Hasan Piker]

He is himself. And that's what I do as well. Like, I'm just authentically myself. I don't care. Like, you know, I'll go to a gay bar. I'll do, like, a drag thing every now and then. And that breaks the brains of so many insecure people where they're like, oh, you wore a dress. You wore a dress. It's like, okay, like, who gives a shit, right? If you're confident in your sexuality, if you're confident in your masculinity, this kind of stuff doesn't matter.

[Alex Wagner]

I think that's the thing people don't get. I was doing this show back in the day, and this guy was like. Like, you tall, strapping dude who would wear pearl necklaces and another dude just like them. They would do their nails and they were like. And it's like. It's something that I think politicians don't get about masculinity because they still think of it in these pretty retrograde tropes of, like, you would never dab. Like, you would never get into makeup or you'd never. There's no femininity. There's no room for femininity. And it's like, the thing about the 21st century is, like, the young dudes are, like, way more comfortable being whatever the fuck they want to be without feeling like they need and not feeling like they need to be in a box. And someone out there politically needs to recognize that. When we talk about Mamdani and the road ahead for him. And I ask you this. Cause I know you were at Mamdani headquarters. Advisor, Engaged supporter. Engaged supporter.

[Hasan Piker]

It was an engaged supporter. Exactly.

[Morris Katz]

Engaged supporter.

[Hasan Piker]

I was an early booster. I tried to help to the best of my ability. And I think the most impactful part of that was, like I said in the primary, getting his name in front of a lot of people, of organizers and a lot of people who were excited and primed and ready to go with a candidate that represented their worldview, that was closer to their worldview. This would not work with every single campaign, though. That's what I always stress to other people. It's not like I can just activate my audience.

[Alex Wagner]

You're like, don't come to me.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. In the direction of Abigail Spamberger, for example. Unless there is something there that is tangible, something there that, like, people can associate with.

[Alex Wagner]

And what do you mean by that? Like, why wouldn't that work with Abigail Spanberger, who, by the way, like, won by a larger margin than Zoro Donnie and swept the Virginia House of Delegates?

[Hasan Piker]

Of course.

[Alex Wagner]

What is it because of the moderate.

[Hasan Piker]

Piece of it, like CIA moderate. But I mean, it's a gubernatorial race, so it's a little different for sure. Because, like, I try to explain that to people where it's like when you're the governor, you just kind of have to do right by your constituents. Like, there is no ideological like there. Usually that calculation is more significant than like party loyalty. And that's why you have, you know, very famously, Andy Bashar, for example. Yeah. And also red governors in blue states.

[Morris Katz]

Right.

[Hasan Piker]

So for that reason, it's like a different analysis that people are making. And it was very obviously like the anti Trump vote. Right. They did not want someone who is going to be Trump aligned.

[Alex Wagner]

And that's what I want to ask in the context of Mamdani, because the right wing is losing its fucking mind. Continue on. Right.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And like, Trump has already very clearly set his sights on Mandani, and I wonder how much we should expect him.

[Hasan Piker]

I think Trump will surprise you on Mumdani.

[Alex Wagner]

What do you mean?

[Hasan Piker]

I think Donald Trump reads the room a lot better than people give him credit for, or some people do give him credit for it. He sees charisma and he likes it.

[Alex Wagner]

He knows it.

[Hasan Piker]

He's a television man.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

And I was reading, I think it was Peter Baker in the New York Times that wrote this report. And a part of that was talking about how Donald Trump, behind closed doors has been speaking a very different tune about Zoramdani than he is when he's speaking out against him.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm with you on the Trump could surprise us on Mamdani. I think he does. He respects charisma, he respects political talent. It's why he's obsessed with Barack Obama and obsessed with the comparisons. But he also has trampled on Obama's legacy, like, explicitly. He's had his goons at, like, you know, dni investigate Obama and like his, you know, Obama is his Moby Dick in a lot of ways. I could see the same being true for Mamdani where he privately sort of respects him as a politician and as a man, but also will use him as a foil to try and take on the libs and New York City and, you know, try and make life hell for the people that Mamdani has to govern. So I guess I wonder, you know, as you think about it, like, how much should the left expect Mamdani to be an avid, a bulwark against Trump, and how much should the left give him space to actually just run the most complicated bureaucratic city in America?

[Hasan Piker]

I think that's gonna happen regardless. There's gonna be a lot of growing pains, and there is going to be a tremendous amount of animosity towards whatever he tries to do. It's gonna happen because there are far too many advocacy groups and far too many corporate interests at play here that have been very frustrated and very fearful about even offering a crumb of hope to the working class. And Mamdani does represent that hope. His campaign was able to overcome great odds. I know we say, oh, it's New York, everyone's woke, but that was an insane race that took place.

[Alex Wagner]

It was.

[Hasan Piker]

It was nationally significant, but it was also internationally significant. I have friends in, in lfi, in France, on Bowed that are going crazy. Melanchon has been talking about Zoramdani over and over again. I got people in the Green Party hitting me up in the UK to be like, hey, can we. Can we get a. Can we get an interview with Zoram Dayan?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, and it's such a counterpoint. I mean, we have exported a certain brand of, like, toxic American imperialism and like, MAGA bullshit for, you know, the last eight years.

[Hasan Piker]

You got people in Korea wearing MAGA hats like, we are polluting. We're exporting our brain rot to these other countries. And you saw that with San Saito in Japan, this America first mechanism, with a white guy, by the way, who was a MAGA Trump booster that went to Japan and was a campaign advisor for this, with this party called San Saito that actually made waves. Like, they actually modestly increased their visibility in Japanese politics out of nowhere, and they were running on, you know, xenophobia and all this other stuff, which, of course, you're welcome.

[Alex Wagner]

Japan, of course.

[Hasan Piker]

Well, Japan is already very xenophobic, but it was interesting to see, like, such an Americanized version of that, especially when their xenophobia is also not exactly kind to white people either. Like, they don't want white people in the country either.

[Alex Wagner]

But I mean, to that end, like, the reason Mamdani's victory, I think is so relevant is because it's such a counterpoint to what people have come to expect from America. It reminds the rest of the world that we're not just this sort of singular neo fascist entity, but that there are incredible new leaders on the horizon that offer a way more inclusive, dynamic version of this country that we thought was, like, basically lost.

[Hasan Piker]

America is the nation of contradictions. Right? Like, and it is exhibited in the mind of the media, the median voter. Yeah, you see it all the time. People believe inherently Contradictory statements. Ask a Trump supporter if they want to build a wall and purge the nation of immigrants. They say yes. Ask them if you think people that have been here for five years should get amnesty and become citizens. They say, of course, those are directly at odds with one another. So I think we have to, I was about to say engage in more dialectical thinking, but really we have to actually offer an alternative. And if the left flank party does not offer this alternative, then we find ourselves swept away by the right wing forces and start only agreeing with the right wing position because that's the only position that we hear. And that's why it was so damaging for the Democrats, I think, in the lead up to the election to, or even in the beginning of the Biden administration to not immediately look at the table and say, we actually won on a pro immigration stance and we should commit to this first 100 days agenda. And they should have been campaigning year round as the Republicans do, and they should have been creating a strong and resilient base of support on key issues that their advocacy should be centered on instead of constantly playing defense after years and years of right wing propaganda that they never addressed. The reason why I bring this up is because it was a non starter, like being pro migrant was a non starter in this election. And that's the reason why the Democrats thought in their endless brilliance that on October 5th they could unveil this right wing Oklahoma senator written bill that was gonna be very serious about. Yeah, very serious about tackling the immigration crisis where they adopted the right wing framing that was utterly devoid of facts. That was complete manufactured hysteria. Right. And they said, yes, you're right, immigrants are constituting a national security threat, but we are the serious party that's going to actually take care of this problem. When you do that, you don't actually win any votes.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, well, you cede ground to the territory that you have.

[Hasan Piker]

All you've done is allow the country to be more right wing until they actually see the implementation of those policies. Another thing that I constantly screamed about over and over again. I was like, this is very dangerous. Mass deportations are Nazi shit. You guys are not taking this seriously. You are not pushing back against the dangers that immigrants present. They were too fearful to take a stand on this issue because Democrats don't believe in anything. Well, or at least that's the way that they look.

[Alex Wagner]

The upshot of the Trump years, it has forced a crystallization of beliefs and ethics. And you see these immigration dragnets and I think it, I mean, it has forced Democrats to first of all acknowledge the contributions of immigrants, how they are the lifeblood of the American economy.

[Hasan Piker]

I don't think they're doing enough.

[Alex Wagner]

I agree with you. I completely agree with you.

[Hasan Piker]

I don't think the Democratic Party is. I think the bases. Yeah, the bases come into that realization.

[Alex Wagner]

It's people seeing what's happening in their communities.

[Hasan Piker]

But as long as the Democrats refuse to listen to their base, they are never gonna win elections. They will only eke out marginal victories here and there as we ratchet further and further into very, very dangerous right wing territory, which we're in right now. We are in fascism territory. If you go along with the James Carville method of just like showing your belly and expecting results, that's how you arrive at being the less popular party. At a time when there's unprecedented animosity towards the Republicans. Yeah, it's unacceptable.

[Alex Wagner]

Don't show your soft belly. Go out there and fight.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, people want fighters, and I think that's going to be fighters who can.

[Alex Wagner]

Wear pearl necklaces, too.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, sure. But I think that is like the major thing that Democrats need to address. They will put their. They will put their bodies on the line. They will be leading the charge that they're unafraid to go out in public and actually lead protests and actually make a big fuss about these issues. That's why I gave a lot of respect to Chris Van Hollen when he made the issue of Kilmar Breguet Garcia consequential for the Republicans. That was a turning point that paired up with people black bagging random neighbors off of the streets was creating a lot of animosity and a lot of discontent amongst the base. But they were not. The media wasn't covering it as much. And until Chris Van Hollen was like, no, I want proof of life. This is one of my constituents. I want proof of life. For Kilmarberg Garcia. I'm down to go to El Salvador. Then it became a major issue.

[Alex Wagner]

Totally.

[Hasan Piker]

That was the turning point in the polls as well for Americans that were too busy to care about what the administration was up to because they were too busy trying to make rent.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, listen, you can care about affordability and the welfare of your fellow human beings, and I think that that's what the moment calls for. Hasan, it's like, we could talk for six more hours. There's a lot to cover. I hope I can talk to you again.

[Morris Katz]

For sure.

[Alex Wagner]

It's great to get your perspective on all of this.

[Hasan Piker]

Oh, thank you for having me.

[Alex Wagner]

Keep doing what you're doing all right. Maybe not. Maybe not. The two I worry about your health. Oh, the Zins, the Zins.

[Hasan Piker]

I got the Trump assassination attempt. Zinton.

[Alex Wagner]

Of course you do.

[Hasan Piker]

This is a real. This is a real party trick. When I go to like all the manosphere podcasts, they love it when I pull this out. They're like, oh my God.

[Alex Wagner]

Before we go, I want to hear from you. Have you been impacted directly by the Trump administration and its policies? Maybe you've experienced changes to your job or to your healthcare or at your kid's school? If you have, I want to hear it all. Whether these policies have impacted you for better or for worse, send us an email or a one minute voice [e-mail] and we may be in touch to feature your story. And thank you to everyone who has written in already. Last but not least, please do not forget to do check out the show and our rapid response videos which are awesome on our YouTube channel Runaway country with Alex Wagner. Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkovski. Our producer is Emma Ilic Frank. Production support from Megan Larson and Lacey Roberts. The show is mixed and edited by Charlotte Landis. Ben Hethcote is our video producer and Matt De Groat is our head of production. Audio support comes from Kyle Seglin. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. Katie Long is our executive producer of development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America eas.

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin listeners? I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We we got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o', Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding, and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.