ICE Goons at the Airport and DACA Detentions (w/ Jonathan V. Last)

Summary

Runaway Country with Alex Wagner

Episode: ICE Goons at the Airport and DACA Detentions (with Jonathan V. Last)

Date: March 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the ongoing crisis over ICE's actions at American airports, the moral and political battles surrounding immigration enforcement, and the personal costs for families caught in the crosshairs. The episode features a moving interview with Stephanie Villarreal, whose husband—a DACA recipient—was detained by ICE while attempting to deliver breast milk to their newborn in the NICU. Later, Alex Wagner is joined by The Bulwark’s Jonathan V. Last (JVL) to explore how these issues reflect broader questions of American values, political strategy, and institutional reform in the Trump era.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Current Crisis: ICE Actions, Airport Security, and Political Stalemate

• Trump Administration’s Multiple Fronts
  • Amid Trump’s war in Iran, a domestic showdown rages between Democrats and Republicans over the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and ICE funding.
  • The country is reeling from the publicized murders of Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy by ICE, catapulting questions about ICE violence and accountability (02:23).
• Shutdown & Political Calculations
  • 37-day partial shutdown: Democrats tie DHS funding to reforming ICE, as airport security collapses due to unpaid TSA workers.
  • Trump escalates by sending ICE agents to airports, both to cover for TSA absences and to execute deportations ("If that wasn't a sufficient reminder about why this fight is happening in the first place..." – Wagner, 04:44).

Notable Quote:

“The battle at hand seems to be airport lines versus moral collapse—which is the more powerful incentive, politically speaking.”
– Alex Wagner (24:44)

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2. Human Impact: The Villarreal Family’s Story

Interview with Stephanie Villarreal (05:59–20:44)

• ICE Detains a DACA Recipient
  • Stephanie recounts how her husband Juan Chavez Velasco, protected by DACA since 2012, was intercepted by ICE while delivering milk to their premature baby (07:29).
  • Despite having active, renewed DACA status and no criminal record, Juan was detained; his DACA expired during his detention, complicating his legal standing (10:21).
• Family Trauma
  • Stephanie describes the effect on their children and the emotional devastation of visiting Juan:

    “He just kept asking, ‘Daddy, why are you back there? Can you play with me?’ … He couldn’t understand.” (13:00)

  • The family struggles to explain the situation to their four-year-old, reinforcing the cruelty of these detentions.
• Deportation Order and Legal Limbo
  • Juan’s vulnerability traced to a 2004 deportation order issued at age 14 (14:46), complicated by years of attempted legal resolution.
  • Stephanie chose to speak publicly to combat stereotypes and highlight the plight of 'Dreamers' who have "done everything right" but remain at risk (16:30).
• Support and Need for Solidarity
  • Stephanie calls for public awareness, support for affected families, and understanding of the extended harm ("It's just really hard," 18:46).

Notable Quotes:

“If it's happening to us, it could definitely happen to others.”
– Stephanie Villarreal (10:36)

“We hope we can stay here and rebuild our family and just go back to living life as normal.”
– Stephanie Villarreal (18:22)

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3. Structural & Political Analysis: Conversation with Jonathan V. Last (JVL)

ICE as a Moral and Institutional Crisis (23:55–66:16)

• American Apathy and Political Incentives
  • Both Wagner and JVL argue that discomfort over airport delays motivates public outrage more than ICE abuses:

    “Because we live in the stupidest timeline, I just assume it'll be the airport lines … In the same way that people are willing to tolerate a million dead Americans from COVID, but like, the price of gas goes up and they're like, what the fuck?”
    – JVL (25:05)

• DHS and ICE: Time for Dismantlement?
  • JVL calls for wholesale dismantling of the post-9/11 DHS, “feed DHS into the wood chipper” (28:32), arguing that reform is insufficient, given the agency’s rapid and deep corruption.
  • Advocates returning ICE, CBP, and other agencies to earlier, more accountable structures.
• Legal Loopholes and Bureaucratic Cruelty
  • ICE and DHS have shifted from overt violence to less visible but equally harmful administrative tactics, such as changing legal statuses to manufacture grounds for detention and deportation:

    “They create the criminals … it’s legal to create the criminals … that’s a problem.”
    – JVL (41:07)

  • Focus on avoiding viral moments; abuses continue largely out of public view (42:57).
• Missed Opportunities and Urgency for Reform
  • Wagner and JVL lament the risk of Democrats “moving on” after potential electoral victory, leading to no reckoning or structural reform ("If the first thing [a Democratic President] does isn’t feed DHS into the wood chipper, then what’s the point of them anyway?" – JVL, 28:32).

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4. Political Strategy and Consequences

• Voter Suppression: The Save America Act
  • The episode dissects the Save America Act and its intent to restrict voting, with Wagner expressing concern that, “Trump’s not trying to win this fair and square” (55:11).
  • Debate over whether provisions like voter ID will hurt Republicans more than Democrats as coalitions shift (52:00).
• The Real Play: Chaos at the Ballot Box
  • The danger comes less from overt suppression than from manufacturing enough chaos to impugn results and refuse to seat winning candidates from targeted districts (58:25).
  • JVL predicts a Democratic House landslide in 2026 (“I think the Dems could wind up with 60 seats in the House…” 59:57), but remains concerned about future cycles and institutional sabotage.
• Supreme Court Stakes
  • Discussion of looming right-wing retirements and likely Trump appointments, reinforcing the need for court reform (61:25).
  • JVL and Wagner are now in favor of expanding the Court as the only viable reform in the current system ("You got to expand the court..." – JVL 63:45).

Notable Quotes:

“Keeping up desperation, I guess, is the key to political change. Which is a dark as fuck assessment.”
– Alex Wagner (65:22)

“Donald Trump changed everything. And what's most, I think, permanent about that is that he was reelected and that the American public chose him. And that means we are a different country than we thought we were 10 years ago.”
– Alex Wagner (63:53)

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Memorable Moments and Quotes

• Stephanie Villarreal on Her Husband’s Goodness:

  “He always does the right thing. Like, that's just his character. And it's just very saddening that this could happen to people like us.” (10:36)

• JVL on Demands for Immigration System Reform:

  “All of these agencies are totally corrupted and they need to be reassigned to other parts of the government and built from scratch.” (29:49)

• Wagner on Outrage and Politics:

  “The moral rot which is at the center of ICE is not the thing that's pushing the White House to these negotiations...” (25:10)

• JVL on Media and Outrage:

  “Nobody will ever care what is in a court filing. ... Now, I mean, if it's not—imagine if Renee Goode's killing hadn't been on video.” (43:39)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• ICE violence recap and shutdown analysis: 01:56–05:59
• Stephanie Villarreal interview: 05:59–20:44
• Discussion with Jonathan V. Last begins: 23:55
• Analysis of airport/ICE crisis and DHS structure: 25:05–32:55
• Deep dive on DACA, bureaucratic cruelty, and hidden abuses: 40:06–46:45
• Voter suppression and Save America Act: 50:29–55:44
• Polling place chaos, election manipulation strategies: 56:15–61:18
• Supreme Court reform and what comes next: 61:25–65:32

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Tone & Style

The episode weaves righteous indignation, personal storytelling, and mordant humor (especially in the conversations with JBL). Alex Wagner’s style blends empathy for affected families with sharp, at times dark, political analysis, while Jonathan V. Last brings a sardonic, lucid perspective on the scope of the crisis and the insufficiency of incremental reforms.

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Summary

This episode of Runaway Country places a human face on the policy battles swirling around ICE and DHS, while refusing to look away from the darker realities beneath the headlines. Through Stephanie Villarreal’s heartbreaking testimony, Alex Wagner exposes the concrete harms of Trump-era enforcement, while her sparring with Jonathan V. Last maps the broader moral, political, and institutional landscape—arguing for nothing less than the dismantlement and rebuilding of the American immigration and security apparatus. The show urges listeners to resist desensitization, keep up sustained outrage, and see the fight for justice and reform as both urgent and unfinished.

Transcript

[Alex Wagner]

I am Michelle.

[Jonathan V. Last]

And I am Craig.

[Alex Wagner]

Craig here is my big brother. We are so excited for you to listen to our brand new podcast. It's called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Together, Craig and I are gonna take your questions about the challenges you're grappling with in life. So get in touch, send us your

[Jonathan V. Last]

questions and join us on IMO with

[Alex Wagner]

Michelle Obama and Greg Robinson. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Quick question. Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted? If you said yes to both. Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan. And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco. And we're the hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture, and not losing their minds in the process. We break down the news, call out the nonsense, and spotlight the women actually fighting back. On Capitol Hill, in classrooms and everywhere, the stakes are high. It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero handholding. Listen to Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube. Ugh. I barely got any sleep last night. What? Why? I spent hours fighting with AI all because I was trying to make a website. It started out okay, but then I got stuck just trying to change one button. Okay, okay, relax. Just try WIX Harmony.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

What's that?

[Alex Wagner]

It's wix's new website builder. Lets you switch back and forth between AI tools and hands on editing anytime. So I'm not just prompting and praying? Nope. Just try it for [e-mail] Harmony hi, everyone. Much of the globe and this country has been focused on Trump's war of choice in Iran. Thousands dead, markets in chaos, gas prices skyrocketing, fantasy diplomacy, talks and also mysterious presence. They're going to make a deal.

[Jonathan V. Last]

They did something yesterday that was amazing, actually. They gave us a present and the President arrived today. And it was a very big present

[Alex Wagner]

worth a tremendous amount of money. And I'm not going to tell you

[Jonathan V. Last]

what that president is, but it was a very significant prize and they gave it to us and they said they

[Alex Wagner]

were going to give it.

[Jonathan V. Last]

So that meant one thing to me. We're dealing with the right people.

[Alex Wagner]

It's all very confusing and it's all very, very bad. But this is not the only war that Trump is fighting In Washington, Democrats have been at war with the Trump administration for 37 days. As of this recording. After the country witnessed the murder of Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy in January at the hands of ICE officers, Democrats supported by two thirds of the American public, demanded reforms using the only leverage they really have at this point funding the agency that oversees ice, which is the Department of Homeland Security. Republicans, and especially their leader, Donald Trump, would not negotiate. And so the face off began Feb. 13 with Trump and his party betting that the longer this partial shutdown went on, the longer DHS employees, including TSA agents, weren't getting paid and the longer the security lines got at the airports that Democrats would crack and that the public would forget about what ICE did and is still doing in the name of immigration enforcement. Well, 37 days later, it is Republicans who are now worried. They are worried about how all of this, the unpaid workers, the nightmarish security lines, and, oh yeah, the brutality of ICE goons, how all that is making them look. So negotiations have started up again. Here's Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer on Tuesday explaining his party's position.

[Jonathan V. Last]

We need reforms to ice. We need to rein in the violence. We have never changed our position. So no deal.

[Alex Wagner]

Peter Schumann.

[Jonathan V. Last]

This does not have any reforms in ice, but they've sent us, negotiations are ongoing and they've sent us an offer, and we'll be sending them an offer back. And I can assure you it'll contain

[Alex Wagner]

significant reform in it for both Republicans and Democrats, the upper hand in these negotiations is going to be determined by two things. How pissed off will American travel get about hellacious airport security lines before they turn on everyone? And how much does the public continue to be outraged by the unlawful and amoral actions of ICE agents? Well, on that last part, Trump did Democrats a solid by deciding last week to send ice agents to 14 major US airports to help fill in for absent TSA agents and maybe engage in some wrenching deportations while they were at it. What is your badge number? We need to see your badge number. Show your badge number. If that wasn't a sufficient reminder about why this fight is happening in the first place, this week, Oklahoma's Mark Wayne Mullen, amateur UFC contestant and U.S. senator, was sworn in as the new head of DHS for an agency under scrutiny for its use of extralegal violence and public murder. The choice of Mullen upset even some of his Republican colleagues in the Senate, like Rand Paul.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I just wonder if someone who applauds

[Alex Wagner]

violence against their political opponents is the

[Jonathan V. Last]

right person to lead an agency that has struggled to accept limits to the

[Alex Wagner]

proper use of force. I wonder too, Rand, because the reality is that even during this DHS shutdown, ICE has been operational and the strategies its agents have been employing the people ICE has been targeting. The crackdown on our country's most vulnerable. Well, that has only gotten worse. I'm Alex Wagner, and this week on Runaway country, we're taking a look at what ICE has really been up to since the headline killings of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy and what that means for the current fight over reform.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

I heard my husband panicking, telling them, you know, I'm active daca. I have my DACA card. And they said, it doesn't matter. You're going to be detained.

[Alex Wagner]

That's Stephanie Villarreal. Her husband, Juan Chavez Velasco, moved to the US from Colombia with his family when he was just eight years old. Since 2012, Juan has been protected by DACA residential status or Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, or so he thought. On February 18, Juan was targeted by ICE agents as he was on his way to deliver breast milk to his newborn daughter, Eliana, who was at that time and still is in the nicu, the neonatal intensive care unit. Juan still hasn't gotten to hold Eliana, and it's unclear when he even will. His DACA status expired while he was in detention, and there is no clear path for Juan's release back into the United States. Later in this episode, I'm going to talk to the bulwarks, Jonathan V. Last, AKA jvl, about the fight underway, how Democrats and the public should think about all of this and whether he is optimistic that we might clean this moral stain off of our proverbial American clothes. But first, let's hear from Stephanie Villarreal. Here's our conversation. Stephanie, first of all, thank you for doing this. I know it has been an extraordinarily difficult time for your family. I guess. Let's just start with what happened on February 18. Can you describe what went down that day?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Yeah. So it was just a normal day. My husband, as he had been, you know, in the previous days, he had been taking milk to our baby at the hospital. And on his way over to the hospital, he was driving up and he noticed there was a vehicle on the side. I stepped out of that vehicle and was attempting to pull him out of the car. He told him, basically, you know, tried to identify himself, said that he was active daca, and they said it didn't matter. And since then, he's been detained.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay. So he was just, to be clear, going to the hospital because you guys have a child in the hospital, is that right?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Correct. We have a premature baby in the

[Alex Wagner]

nicu, and he was delivering milk to the baby in the nicu.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Correct. My breast milk that I Had been pumping, and he's.

[Alex Wagner]

And he's been doing that regularly, I assume, right?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Yes. So she was born February 6th. So for the prior 12 days, he had gone on a daily basis.

[Alex Wagner]

And Ice, I guess, had been monitoring him because they knew he was gonna be there.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

That's what it felt like. It was the only day I wasn't with him.

[Alex Wagner]

So he's literally carrying breast milk to the hospital. ICE is waiting for him. And does he get on the phone with you when this starts happening?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Yeah, he called me on his way out. He usually does on his way when he's driving out of the neighborhood. And he told me that there was a vehicle just kind of parked and wouldn't let him drive through, was blocking his way. Was blocking his way. And that's when I heard the ICE officer in the background telling him he needs to get out of the vehicle. And I heard my husband panicking, telling them, you know, I'm active daca. I have my DACA card. And they said, it doesn't matter. You're gonna be detained. I immediately started crying. I was panicking. It was very hard hearing it and feeling so helpless, you know, I couldn't. I couldn't do anything. I just, you know, didn't know what to do. I was so confused. I was. I was very confused. We assumed he had protection with daca.

[Alex Wagner]

Talk to me about your husband, Juan. When did he come over here, and what was his status at the. At the moment that he was apprehended?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

So he was active daca. He had actually renewed his DACA way in advance. He had been hearing about the delays. So in November, he actually had renewed, and it ended up expiring March 10. So he was detained February 18.

[Alex Wagner]

His DACA status had not expired or his. You know, he was still lawfully here as of February 18th. And then while he's been in detention, it's expired.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Correct? He. He would renew every two years. And one of the requirements in order to renew is that you have no criminal history. So he was doing everything right.

[Alex Wagner]

What's he like, your husband?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

He's. We miss him a lot because he's just such a good father, such a good husband. He always does the right thing. Like, that's just his character. And it's just. It's just very saddening that this could happen to people like us. You know, if it's happening to us, it could definitely happen, you know, to others. My husband's just a good person all around.

[Alex Wagner]

He has. I think it's. Was it two Bachelor's degree in biology and clinical laboratory science. He's a medical lab scientist, Correct.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Once he applied for daca back in 2012. That's when he graduated and got those two degrees back in 2012 and 2013.

[Alex Wagner]

Wow. And so in the meantime, you're here, you still have a child in the nicu, and then you have children at home too, is that right?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Yes. I have a 4 year old and I have a 10 month old.

[Alex Wagner]

Where do they think their dad is?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

So my son, we actually just broke the truth to him because for about a month we had been telling him he was on a work trip and he just. My 4 year old is very, very smart and he likes to question everything, you know, and he, he knew that my husband would have told him about, you know, if he was leaving. And, and I think it was last Saturday we finally told him the truth because we've always told him, you know, only criminals go in jail. So we were kind of debating on whether telling him.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

And so we basically just told him, you know, grandma had died in another country and in the United States, you have to be born in the United States in order to be here. And he just couldn't understand. You know, he couldn't understand. But we told him that daddy was born in Colombia and he was not allowed to be here. And that's basically all we told him. And because of that, he's in jail now and we're hoping he'll get out soon. And luckily we took him to see him, but he took a little while to compose himself once he saw my husband.

[Alex Wagner]

What was that like for all of you guys?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Very emotional. Very, very emotional. It was. My husband cried. I had never seen him cry before. And it was extremely hard, very hard. He just kept asking, daddy, why are you back there? And can you play with me? Can we play soccer, you know, and can you take me to baseball, to my baseball games like you used to? And it's just really hard. He just couldn't understand. Couldn't understand.

[Alex Wagner]

Your husband was brought here when he was really young. He's an American. For all intents and purposes. He's married to an American. He has American children. Where does his case stand now?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

So he had a deportation order from 2004. That one we had attempted multiple times to reopen. We were trying to do things, you know, the right way through our marriage. Attorneys kept advising us kind of hold off because they were afraid that this would happen. He would get detained or he would get deported. But we had her attorney, she, as soon as he got detained, she started filing everything she needed to do, trying to reopen that same order that we had attempted multiple times to reopen. And where we're at kind of now is just trying to wait to see if they respond to reopening that deportation order so it could be closed and hopefully he can stay.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, just to understand, the deportation order was that. That was before he got DACA status, I assume.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Correct. He was 14 years old when that was issued to him.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay. And then he subsequently got DACA status once that was offered. Right. In 20. Was it 2012?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

2012.

[Alex Wagner]

But presumably, this deportation order from when he was really young is what the Trump administration is using as the basis for why he was targeted in the first place. And they've essentially kept him in detention until now. His DACA status is no longer active, so. So I assume that counts against him, too. Correct.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

We're working on trying to get that expedited so it can move as well.

[Alex Wagner]

Kristi Noem, who's no longer the Secretary of Homeland Security, last month was, you know, asked under some sharp questioning, like, what are you guys doing with DACA recipients? Like, why are you going after them? How many have you detained? How many have you deported? And I think the number was that they had detained 261 DACA recipients and deported about 86 of them. But what's so stunning about that is, given, you know, daca, these are Americans, basically, who were brought here through no fault of their own. They've contributed back to society. They've gotten, in the case of your husband, higher degrees. They're in, like, you know, in many cases, elite professions. They're talented individuals. They're the, you know, the best of the best, I would assume. It's hard to come out and talk about what's happened to your family if you're daca, because you don't want to risk. You want to get these people back into the country one day. Why? I mean, talk to me about the decision to go public with your story. And I don't know how freaked out are you that this makes you more of a target for the Trump administration.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

So it's just to reiterate the facts of the story. You know, a lot of the times, there's a lot of assumptions, you know, that my husband was a criminal. He was not. He had no criminal background at all. That he. That we were on welfare, which is not true. You know, just a lot of assumptions. And the reason I am coming public with it is just because I really want them to know who my husband was, who he is, is who he is. Yes. He's just. He's definitely not somebody that deserves any of this. You know, like you mentioned, he was brought here at no fault of his own. His family tried to do the right thing. Unfortunately, you know, not everybody understands immigration. You know, it takes many, many, many years in order for something to get finalized, and that's kind of where we were before all of this happened. I just want people to know that there's. We're not the only ones in this situation. There's a lot of good people out there that do not deserve any of it.

[Alex Wagner]

Have you guys, like, talked about what could happen to him? I mean, he's from Colombia, right? What's that conversation been like?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

It's been hard. We try to, you know, try to prepare, but we just. We're staying hopeful that he'll come home. We just purchased our home last year, so everything felt perfect and falling in line, and. And we really don't want to leave. This is where we were raising our children, and our children are here with family, and we want to be here in the United States for our children. You know, the opportunities are here.

[Alex Wagner]

So you might. Would you leave? Would all of you guys leave? If that's what it comes down to, we.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

We can't tell yet. I hope that it doesn't have to get to that. Hoping that we can stay here and we can rebuild our family and just go back to living life as normal as we were.

[Alex Wagner]

How can people support families like your own who have found themselves in this situation? And how are you guys getting by?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

It's been pretty hard. I'm doing this all on my own now, and, you know, I was out on maternity leave, work, and it's just, you know, luckily we have good jobs, good people that have come in and supported us. And his family, my family, they've just all been so supportive, but it's. It's getting really hard. It's getting really hard.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm sure this is not how you thought you were going to be spending maternity.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

No.

[Alex Wagner]

How's your baby doing?

[Stephanie Villarreal]

She's growing. She just recently went through a blood transfusion, so they're monitoring her, and I'm hoping that eventually she can come home, too. She's so broken.

[Alex Wagner]

She will. It is just, like, unfathomable what you're going through, but what's so astounding is how tough you are and how strong you are, you know, like you're not crumbling under the weight of it. You're doing podcasts and media. And you're drawing attention to a moral stain on our country. And it's through that perseverance that the good guys win. You know, trying.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

I'm trying to stay strong and for myself.

[Alex Wagner]

And you're doing it. You're doing it, sis. It is invaluable to have your perspective. And it's so important to hear these stories because people, you know, we were very attuned to the death of Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Goode. And people have sort of forgotten that the detentions and the deportations and the brutality and the cruelty very much continue. And you're a living testament to that. And, you know, these are the stakes. So thank you of reminding us of them. And I'm sorry that you even have to, but you are an impressive lady.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Stephanie. Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

After the break, we will put all of this in context with the bulwarks. Jonathan V. Last Runaway country is brought to you by bookshop.org where you shop for books matters. When you purchase from bookshop.org, you are supporting more than 2,500 local independent bookstores across the country. Independent bookstores do more than sell books. They take care of and pour back into their communities, creating safe spaces that foster culture, curiosity, and a love of reading. Whether you're searching for an incisive history that helps you make sense of this moment, a novel that sweeps you away, or the perfect gift for a loved one, bookshop.org has you covered. Since 2020, bookshop.org has raised over $40 million for local bookstores. They are unapologetically anti Amazon. They believe local bookstores are essential community hubs that foster culture, curiosity, and a love of reading. And they are committed to helping them survive and thrive. They're a certified B Corp and were named Best for the world by B Labs. I literally just ordered a book for a loved one on bookshop.org and I felt so much better about myself, the gift and honestly, the loved one. I gotta say, not buying books from Jeff Bezos is like a Meredith thing. I'm not a huge believer in karma, but I do feel like this is one where you can notch some karma points stat. Use Code alex to get 10% off your next order at bookshop.org that is code Alex A L E X at bookshop.org Runaway country is brought to you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. A political movement that deserves closer attention right now is Christian nationalism. It's the idea that government should reflect a particular religious identity. And that ideology is increasingly influencing our policy debates. We're seeing it in education policy, in court rulings, and in political rhetoric. The Freedom From Religion foundation monitors and challenges those developments. They advocate for church state separation, track religious privilege and public policy, and defend the First Amendment rights of Americans of every belief. They've recently raised alarms about Supreme Court decisions expanding religious privilege and about extremist religious rhetoric that's shaping policy debates. If you care about preserving a pluralistic democracy, their work is worth knowing about. Visit FFRF US Alex or text my first name, Alex A L e X to 511-511. To learn more and join, go to FFRF US Alex, or text my name, Alex to 511511. Remember to text Alex to 511511 today and support the work of protecting our shared freedoms. Message and data rates may apply. Jvl, it's my deep honor to welcome you to runaway country. I can't. My eyes are alight. My soul is glowing. Thank you for being here, buddy.

[Jonathan V. Last]

The honor is mine. Huge, huge fan of yours. I can't wait for us to be best friends.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, my God, me too. I mean, I feel like I'm, like, already halfway there.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, it's like the John Riley stepbrothers gift. Did we just become best friends?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, exactly. We did. Time is a continuous. Time is actually a dimension. So in the salami slice of, like, you know, we're already there. Anyway, I just needed to bring that in. I've been watching or thinking about interstellar a lot. That has no bearing whatsoever.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Oh, I thought you were gonna go with everything everywhere all at once.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, no, I just went with interstellar.

[Jonathan V. Last]

We're in the hot dog finger universe.

[Alex Wagner]

Exactly. Well, hot dog finger's small, authoritarian. What is it? Short fingered vulgarian. That's whose universe. Stubby fingered Stubby fingers.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah. Graydon Carter. Thank you for that, Graydon.

[Alex Wagner]

It's one of the gifts he gave us. Let's talk about what's happening right now, which is this kind of. The battle at hand seems to be airport lines versus moral collapse, which is the more powerful incentive, politically speaking.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, because we live in the stupidest timeline. I just assume it'll be the airport lines.

[Alex Wagner]

Right.

[Jonathan V. Last]

That's the thing that winds up being more powerful. Right. In the same way that people are willing to tolerate a million dead Americans from COVID But like, the price of gas goes up and they're like, what the fuck?

[Alex Wagner]

I can't abide it. Not on. Yeah.

[Jonathan V. Last]

So I assume that seems to be what happened.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Jonathan V. Last]

How about you? What do you think?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, no, I think it's airport lines. I mean, I will say the fact that Donald Trump has dispatched ICE agents to the airports has underscored the sort of central question in this fight, which is, should this paramilitary goon squad be allowed to operate unfettered? But really, the thing that's driving the negotiations on the Hill, and that is the source of all public outcry, is the fact that people have to wait in a really long line to get onto their flights. And listen, my heart goes out to travelers. I am one of them. But it says a lot about our society that the moral rot which is at the center of ICE is not the thing that's pushing the White House to these negotiations and injecting new life in the question of ICE reforms.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Let me try to reframe this for you to help make the suffering a little bit easier for you and the rest of America. Yes, standing in TSA lines is a burden and is unpleasant and, and not fun. And, you know, it can cost you time and all that. Sure. On the other hand, all the people you hate most in the world are also standing in those lines. And today there was a photo of somebody in a TSA line with Bill Barr. And you can see Bill Barr just standing there staring at his phone. And he's not even in the TSA pre line. He's in just the normal line.

[Alex Wagner]

And I. Oh, that's just desserts, ain't it?

[Jonathan V. Last]

You know what? Like, okay, I can, you know, what's the old joke about, like, Russians, you know, it's not enough that I must have a nice cow. My neighbor's cow must die, too, in order for me to be happy. And I feel like we can all live there.

[Alex Wagner]

We see ourselves in that adage. What's your level of optimism that Democrats can get anything out of this moment that meaningfully reforms ice? I was talking to Dan Pfeiffer, my colleague here at Crooked Media, about, you know, how hard they should push, and he said, meh, basically, keep your powder dry for 2027, when Dems may have one or both houses of Congress. Which is a bit cynical, probably strategically sound. Maybe I'm just a Pollyanna about this, but I think. I don't know. I think they should push as hard as they fucking can.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, I don't see anything to be gained by not pushing as hard as you can. Right. I mean, what's the cost to Democrats? Is it like.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, then people start blaming them for the airport lines.

[Jonathan V. Last]

If you can't hang the airport lines Around Donald Trump, then like you're in the wrong business. You know, like this guy is at 36% approval in one of the polls I've just seen. I think his average is like 39, 38 right now. Gas prices, like everything else is going wrong. And if you can't also blame him for the airport lines, then what are you even doing in politics?

[Alex Wagner]

Also they run both. They run all of. They run.

[Jonathan V. Last]

They run all of. Right.

[Alex Wagner]

They run the Congress.

[Jonathan V. Last]

In fact, we had Trump saying like 48 hours ago, no, don't. Any deal that the Democrats will agree to, don't do it.

[Stephanie Villarreal]

Yes.

[Jonathan V. Last]

So yes, like there it's. But I, I don't know where you guys are on this, but I firmly believe that if the next Democratic president, if we get another Democratic president, if the first thing he or she does isn't feed DHS into the wood chipper, then what's the point of them anyway? Either. Like, I mean DHS is a totally corrupted agency at this point. And also it's brand new. I mean DHS has still got the new car smell on it. Right? It's five minutes old. It's been totally corrupted. It needs to be taken apart. It turns out it was a mistake. We shouldn't have had it. And all of the various agencies of DHS need to be taken down as studs. It's not like you can't have somebody doing border enforcement. You can, but all of these agencies are totally corrupted and they need to be reassigned to other parts of the government and built from scratch. And so the idea of reforming ICE is nice for right now, I guess because you would like to stop them from killing Americans on the streets. But long term, like ICE has to be gone. And it's not enough for ICE to be gone. Right. You know, CPB has to be gone all again, everything in dhs, take the entire department apart.

[Alex Wagner]

Total overhaul.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Push the thing. Total overhaul. Push it back again. We only just built this post 9 11. It's not like it's been there since 1950. So you know, all of those functions existed before 9 11. They were just scattered in different agencies and it sure seems to have worked better. Ben.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, and I actually like another friend of mine, Ben Rhodes, wrote an op ed in the New York Times basically saying these services need to be housed under different agencies. Like fuck, fuck putting them under dhs. I guess that means you're not super optimistic about former senator, current UFC wannabe Mark Wayne Mullen coming in and cleaning house. I do want to draw your attention to Mark Wayne Mullen suggesting that maybe some marginal reforms at DHS would be possible as far as it concerns judicial warrants. This is Mark Wayne at his Senate confirmation hearing last week.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Will you commit to me and the chair and member, ranking member of this committee and the American people, that ICE will no longer instruct agents to break into people's homes without a judicial warrant? Sir, you're using the word break into people's houses very loosely. However, I have made it very clear to the staff and I think when you and I spoke, that a judicial warrants will be used to go into houses in a place of businesses unless we're pursuing someone that enters in that place. I have not mixed words with that and I haven't changed my opinion about that.

[Alex Wagner]

Don't call it breaking into a house when they kick door down.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I guess that's a step up.

[Alex Wagner]

Is it? Is he destined for the Shield of the Americas? I mean, that's where Kristi Noem is.

[Jonathan V. Last]

We can all only hope to make the Shield of the Americas. First of all, just a question for you. Just as a matter of like, if you gave them an IQ test, who do you think is dumber? Mark Weiner or Noam?

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, there's so many definitions of the word dumb. Straight IQ numbers, I'm going to say. I actually think, I think that Kristi Noem is probably smarter as it concerns sort of shrewdness.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

But he is a little more than a clone. Like my kids are really into Star wars and there's just like some of the clone generals that you know. And then there's just a vast sea of like guys in helmets and he's one of them that will just do whatever it is that the general wants him to do and that then makes him more clone.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Trooper 8311. Mullen, go out there and do something.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, exactly. Because. And in a way that makes him more of a long term player in the Trump universe because he's not gonna spend $20,000 on horses to cut videos to support his, I don't know, bid for governor of Oklahoma or whatever. So it's a little complicated. His staying power is longer not because he's smarter, but in part because I think he's dumber and won't lever the power of the office for his own ends like she did.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, I don't think he's looking for a shot at the title. Right. He wants a seat by the band, not a shot at the title. And Christie, I think, was pretty ambitious. I think she really believed that she could potentially be one of Trump's heirs.

[Alex Wagner]

Turns out, no.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Violated the cardinal rule. Never make money off of Donald Trump. That's the one thing he won't tolerate.

[Alex Wagner]

The money goes one way.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Anything else, the money goes one way. And if. Or if you're getting it, he's gotta get a taste, right? He's gotta get. You could just be like, I gotta get my beak wet. Let me get my beak wet, Christie.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh God, I just hate the sentence Trump beak wet. Like that just makes me very disturbed on a level that I don't care to elaborate on. More of My conversation with JBL in just a minute. But first, this year, Vote Save America is peeling back the curtain on the places and races that matter most to decide the fate of the midterms. November will decide control of Congress and if Trump maintains his Republican trifecta. And that's why Vote Save America is here to offer takes and tips on how, when and where to donate and make sure your money goes the furthest. Also, how to confidently talk to the people in your life about midterms and key issues and give you opportunities to take action with your community in real life. Sign [e-mail] to make sure you're up to date with the latest. Then send the sign up link to five friends paid for by Vote Save America. Learn more at votesaveamerica.com this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. Runaway country is brought to you by Mosh. The older I get, oh, it's pretty old. The more I find myself wanting to be more intentional about the way I live and eat and take care of my body. I'm always looking for an on the go protein snack. I mean, I really am. That satisfies me. And now I have found one that helps me live intentionally as well. Mosh Bars Mosh was founded by Maria Shriver and her son Patrick Schwarzenegger, who you may remember from White Lotus, with a simple mission to create a conversation about brain health through food, education and research. Maria's father suffered from Alzheimer's and since then she and Patrick have dedicated themselves to finding ways to help other families dealing with this debilitating disease. MASH joined forces with the world's top scientists and functional nutritionists to go beyond your average protein bar. 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Not in your pocket, take it out of your pocket first and literally help your body and soul. I mean, why not? If you want to find ways to give back to others and fuel your body and your brain, Mosh bars are the perfect choice for you. Head to moshlife.com Alex to save 20% off plus free shipping on the Bestsellers Trial Pack or the new plant based trial pack that is 20% off plus free shipping on the either the Best Sellers Trial Pack or the plant based trial pack at M-O-S-H-L-I-F E.com Alex thank you Mosh for sponsoring this episode. Runaway country is brought to you by ActBlue. Here on Runaway country, we are all about cutting through the noise to get to what's really happening on the ground in the arena and what we can do about it. ActBlue provides Democrats up and down the ballot with the tools they need to run effective campaigns and win fundraise, organize and build campaign websites, donate with solutions that are easy to use. ActBlue has been there through our country's biggest moments. Our partners at Vote Save America create digital fundraising pages on the ActBlue platform for initiatives like the Anxiety Relief Program and the Flip the House Fund. The Flip the House Fund has already raised over $180,000. Womp womp. It's easy to create the donation pages and add features like goal tracking, monitors and design custom branding and the funds are processed quickly and safely. ActBlue never sells your data or your personal information. They focus on security so you can focus on what matters most. So whether you're running for office or want to make an impact on someone else's campaign, ActBlue has the tools to help you make it happen. Because the right time to get Involved is right now. Donate, organize and raise money for candidates and causes you believe in. @actblue.com Crooked you sense a feeling that Mark Wayne Mullen isn't going to be as bad as Kristi Noem, maybe because the little accessory known as Greg Bovino has been taken out of commission. But there's just some, I guess, expectation based on testimony like that, that perhaps dhs, that Mullen and Tom Holman together could be less toxic than for example, the trio of Lewandowski, Noem and Bovino. But I gotta say man, we all saw Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Goode get murdered and I think a lot of the country turned like we that happened. DHS funding was not approved and we sort of took our eyes off of what ICE has been doing in the interim and the beginning of the show. I spoke to a woman whose husband is a dreamer, was an active dreamer, had active status and he was going to deliver breast milk to his newborn who is in the nicu. ICE detained him. His DACA certification expired while he's in detention and now he's slated for deportation. They have arrested hundreds of dreamers. They've deported scores of them. And it raises the question of like, okay, what exactly is happening at ICE and are these tactics, they're not as publicly viscerally appalling as what was happening before, but it's still really fucking bad. They still have three quotas of deporting 3,000 people a day. And I think we have to be very careful. I mean this is the work of like vigilance in the age of Trump, which is really hard, right, to stay, maybe not as out, like constantly outraged. Cuz I don't think that's healthy for your cortisol levels. But the scrutiny that ICE deserves needs to be. We need to uphold that both as people in the media and also American citizens for whom this is being done in our name.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, I mean the problem is that I think Mark Wayne is probably likely to cut back on some of the illegal stuff that ICE and CPB was doing. But there's a whole bunch of stuff which is legal, which is very bad. And you know, like one of the things the administration has been doing is, is changing people's status, right? You know, removing protected status or you know, doing administrative shenanigans and sleight of hand to take people who were, you know, of documented legal status and render them undocumented. Right. This was the, the thing they did with the God forgetting her name. But the, the Tufts grad student. But the point Is like she, they though. Why did they arrest her? They arrested her because she was here legally. But Marco Rubio went and revoked her status in secret to make her undocumented so they could. Which again, like, they create. They, they.

[Alex Wagner]

They create the criminals.

[Jonathan V. Last]

It's legal to create the criminals and to create the. The. And that's a problem. Right? And in a weird way, the, the blatant criminality of the Noam Lewandowski regime did make it easier for people to get outraged and see the things that were happening. Once this stuff becomes quasi legal, I think it becomes harder to keep people's

[Alex Wagner]

attention on it, focused on attention.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, the good news is we now have a war in Iran to focus people's attention on. So, you know, I guess. I guess there will always be something. But. Yeah, in the meantime, this stuff is all going to wind up having real life, real world impacts on real people, thousands and thousands of them, and there is nothing to be done about it. You've got three more years of this.

[Alex Wagner]

That's. You draw such a good point, which is that, you know, they have Learned lessons from Trump 1 and even from Renee, Nicole Good and Alex Preddy, which is like, make it less public. Make it a bureaucratic affair. Keep the. I mean, the camera phones is still a very useful way. There was a woman arrested at San Francisco Airport over the weekend. And you can't get around the visceral, like, reaction that I think everybody feels when they see a mother and a child screaming and crying and being dragged out of a public place. I mean, that just does not feel like what we do in America. So there, I guess there's that. But so much the administration has learned to bury in the shadows even these detention centers. There's a new court filing by attorneys that represent all the children in federal detention. And they say that conditions at the Dilley Immigration center, which is where all the kids are sent to in Texas, the conditions are awful. And I've read sort of like on a surface level about some of these conditions, and it's like they're not getting. There's no teaching, there's no classroom, they're not getting nutrition. They can't sleep. There's been at least one documented case of someone trying to attempt suicide. And during family separations, it was that audio, remember the audio of the children or the particular child that really became the inflection point. They do not let anything escape from the four walls of Dilly detention or any of these detention centers. So it's like. And once there's Not a viral clip to be passed around with some audio or video. It's like it's not happening. And that's. And it is really. I mean, it is bad. And it is happening in numbers that should stagger us.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, this is. Nobody will ever care what is in a court filing. Right. I mean, that's just the world we live in now is that you can no longer. And I feel like this used to be different. I feel like 15, 20 years ago, you could get a court filing and it would be on the evening news. And the evening news still had, you know, 12 million viewers a night on each channel. And, you know, they would do like the little, the little element where they would show the, with the highlighting over the, you know, in a federal court filing, it said, you know, you'd have Tom Brokaw or Peter Jennings or somebody, Dan Rather reading it. You could get people to care about. But now, I mean, if it's not, imagine if Renee Goode's killing hadn't been on video.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, right.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, we, we know what they would have said because they said all the same things anyway. And it would be a. Well, he shows, he said, she said. You know, who can say. Who can say what really happened? And one of the things that ICE has done and CPB have done is they've started pushing enforcement away from high population density areas. Why do that? Well, you do that because with low population density, you reduce the chances that you get a critical mass of people with cameras there quickly. So that's literally what it's about. It's just to prevent things from being captured on camera. And I don't know that there's really a fix for that. We're just gonna have to take these body blows as a country for another three years.

[Alex Wagner]

Look, I mean, I think the reason this conversation is important and I think the reason the sense of doom is not for nothing is because this is how you inject urgency into the fight. Like, if you are. If Democrats take back the House and maybe even the Senate in 2027, like, there needs to be continued sense of urgency about doing something about this. And the only way that happens is if people remain outraged. And this is part of that.

[Jonathan V. Last]

My nightmare, Alex, is that we make it out of this. I mean, my real nightmare is that we don't make it out of it. And like, Trump just decides he's going to stay and do another term and there's nothing to be done. But, but my, my other nightmare is that, like, we, we claw our way back into the light we get. President. Pick your favorite Democrat. Like, I don't, you know, I want to. Whoever your dream Democrat is, and he or she gets to the White House and what they say is, yeah, we gotta, you know, gotta look forward, can't look back. We're not here to do recriminations. We've gotta deliver real things for the American people. And so we're gonna, we're gonna try to do universal healthcare or something like that. And I, I am sorry, but the Biden administration tried to deliver real things for real people and not do recriminations. That turned out to be a huge fucking mistake.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, well, there's a poison. It's like, right? You have mold that's taking over your bathroom. You don't just shut the door and like, turn on a, open a window.

[Jonathan V. Last]

So, you know, like, this is why I say there are like, big structural reforms which have to take place. Because if you don't do that, you're just leaving the door open so that the next time 40,000 voters in Wisconsin decide that they want to take a gamble on an authoritarian, you're just right back where we are now.

[Alex Wagner]

More with jbl right after this quick break. Runaway country is brought to you by Miracle Made. Here's a gross fact. I'm full of them. Traditional bed sheets can hold more bacteria than a toilet seat. You're welcome. Yeah, it's not exactly what you want to lay your face on. Miracle Maid bedding is designed to fight bacteria and stay cleaner longer. With silver infused fabrics that actually Prevent up to 99.7% of bacterial growth. That bacteria can clog your pores and cause breakouts. Miracle Maid's antibacterial silver technology helps you sleep cleaner and clear night after night. It also means these sheets stay cleaner and fresher up to three times longer than regular sheets. That means fewer odors, fewer wash cycles, and way less laundry. Miracle made sheets are crafted with NASA inspired fabric that helps regulate your body temperature. Are you a hot sleeper? Are you a cold sleeper? Are you both? I know. It doesn't matter. These sheets help keep you in the comfort zone all night long. They feel just as good, if not actually better than sheets that you'd find at a five star hotel. But without the steep price tag bag. Smooth, breathable and ridiculously comfortable. So upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. Go to trymiracle.com Alex to try miracle made sheets today you'll save over 40%. And when you use the promo code Alex, you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three piece towel set. They make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee, there is no risk. That's trymiracle.com Alex Code Alex@ checkout. Thanks to Miracle made for sponsoring this episode. Quick question. Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted if you said yes to both? Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan. And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco and we're the hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture and not losing their minds in the process. We break down the news, call out the nonsense, and spotlight the women actually fighting back on Capitol Hill, in classrooms and everywhere. The stakes are high. It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero hand holding. Listen to Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube. Honestly, I put off building a website way longer than I should have. Then I tried Wix Harmony and it was way easier than I expected. I just described what I wanted and I had an incredible looking website. The best part, I could change anything myself or ask my AI agent for help. I had everything my business needed right there. So if you've been procrastinating, this is your sign. Start building a website for [e-mail] Harmony okay, well you, you've given me a good segue here in terms of the next election. Because throughout all of these debates, like as he's fighting, not fighting, negotiating, not negotiating a war of choice in Iran, as he's, I guess, overseeing a spending fight on the Hill, Trump has been trying to inject the Save America act into all of this, saying like, don't do anything, don't do anything until you wedge my voter suppression bill, cram that down Democrats throats or nuke the filibuster or get it done somehow, he said. This is my favorite. I mean, of all the things Trump said this week, he told Republicans not to go home for their scheduled Senate recess and Easter break. And to make this one for Jesus. Wwjd, the late, great Jesus. What would Jesus do here on the third day?

[Jonathan V. Last]

I would have risen a little bit faster. I think we could have done that a little faster.

[Alex Wagner]

What would Jesus do right now? I don't know that he would pass the Save America Act.

[Jonathan V. Last]

All right, you know what? Let me red team this for you, my friends, please. What if passing the Save America act by nuking the filibuster is good?

[Alex Wagner]

Actually, Wait, wait, wait. Break that apart. Like passing the Save America act is good and nuking the filibuster is good

[Jonathan V. Last]

by by so what if the outcome in which Republicans kill the filibuster and then pass the Save America act turns out to be good? The thing which I think is obviously good is that I have no confidence that Democrats will have the institutional spine to break the filibuster in 2029, which they will need to do. And so if somebody else has done that and taken the political hit for it already, great, I think that frees up. It makes sense. All of the reforms that I'm, you know, that I was just talking about a minute ago, much accomplish. Secondly, the same America act has all sorts of bad shit in there, right? Handing over all the trans people voter

[Alex Wagner]

rolls to the, to the, to dhs. What could go wrong?

[Jonathan V. Last]

On the other hand, the coalitions of voters for the two parties have shifted.

[Alex Wagner]

I know, okay, I know where you're going with this.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Right. And I like, I don't know, like, does making it harder for people to vote really benefit the type of people who vote for populist nationalist candidates?

[Alex Wagner]

Okay, wait, now I was, I follow your line of thought. For people who have not. This is an argument very taken up, taken wing this week especially. There's been some writing in conservative publications that things like the Save America act are not good for Republicans because low Republicans increasingly have non college educated, low propensity voters.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I don't have passports with those people.

[Alex Wagner]

Right. The kinds of people who don't have passports or access to documentation. And so this would inadvertently benefit higher educated globalists with passports like Democrats. In addition to the moral stain that I think would be on anybody who supports a bill that makes it harder for people to vote. There is the point that. I'm quoting Dan Pfeiffer a lot here. What if Those coalitions of 2024 aren't permanent, right? Like you see Hispanics, Latinos, non college educated workers looking out at what Trump is doing, immigration dragnets, tariffs, inflation, cost of living and like, there's no, there's no guarantee that the Trump coalition of 2024 is not actually more up for grabs than we think it is. So like, is it really wise to say, you know, based on the trend lines of the last four years, we, you know, Democrats should be okay with the voter suppression bill, like the Save America Act. Do you worry about that?

[Jonathan V. Last]

So, yes, yes, I do is the short answer. And I don't think, I don't think anybody should support this, right, Because I think it's a bad bill. What I'm saying is that if it wound up getting, getting passed, and especially if it was passed by destroying the filibuster. I think at least in the medium term, the outcomes might be okay for Democrats.

[Alex Wagner]

You're not worried about the requirement, the states hand over voter rolls to DHS that.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Very, totally worried about it. Yes. Yes. Worried. Worried about all of it. All the anti trans stuff, all the, you know, it's terrible. This is why I'm saying, like, I wouldn't vote for it if I was a senator. I would not vote for this thing. I would not counsel anybody else to vote for it. I'm just trying to think through here. It's like with the Texas redistricting, you know, like, it seemed like it was a really good thing for, in the moment for Republicans, but it's turned out to be not good. Right. I mean, it's going to, they, they could actually wind up losing some marginal seats there. And with Virginia and who else swapped California, it's at least a wash because they all.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. Missouri is an ongoing fight.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Missouri's an ongoing fight. So I, I'm just saying that of all the things there are to worry about, I worry about the SAVE Act. I'd say that's pretty far down my list because I can also see a world in which it backfires a little bit for Republicans. Or not. Right. I mean, maybe they get everything they want.

[Alex Wagner]

They could, they are, they're saying to Trump, this is my favorite thing to say this week, hush little baby, we'll pass it through reconciliation. Hush, little baby, don't say a word. We'll pass everything you want through reconciliation.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Can they do that?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, the Senate makes the Senate rules. So like, I'm not a parliamentarian. We're not gonna go down that rabbit hole. But they could. In which case you still have the filibuster and you still, then you get the Save America Act. Let's just, let's just put that on ice for a moment. I do think, you know, Trump's reliance focus on this and his, you know, while he craters the party and destroys Republican chances ahead of the midterms, suggests to me that he's not trying to win this fair and square. Right. And he's taken, he's taken suggestions from anybody about, like, what to do. Right. Like you could be a caller in on Fox News and say, hey, put ice at the airports. And he's like, good idea.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Literally what happens. Yes, that's the world we live.

[Alex Wagner]

Likewise, Steve Bannon on his War Room podcast in a semi joking manner, which I think everybody by this point knows is not semi joking. Like the two collars, the three collared shirt. That's not a joke. That's a choice. This is not a joke. He suggests that ICE agents at airports are test runs. Let's take a listen to what Trump's ousted consigliere had to say about employing ICE to steal elections.

[Jonathan V. Last]

We can use what's happening with these ICE helping out at the airports. We can use this as a test run, as a test case to get to really perfect ICE's involvement in the 2020, 26 midterm elections.

[Alex Wagner]

Sir?

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, I think we should have ICE agents at the polling places, because if you're an illegal alien, you can't vote. Right? It's against the law. It's a federal crime for you to vote in federal elections. And so if you're an American citizen, you should be happy that ICE is there, because you're not going to have illegal aliens canceling out your vote. Pick them out of line starting today, and maybe the lines get shorter, just to be clear. I'm sorry, I got to just pause us here for a minute. What's the point of all the layers if they're the same color?

[Alex Wagner]

It's just insulation.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Why go three deep, all black? It's like, that's a weird, weird choice.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay. I mean, it's like, why did Kylo Ren wear a mask if he didn't need a breathing apparatus like Darth Vader? It was just to seem particularly maleficent.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Isn't that what the kids call it? The kids call it a fit.

[Alex Wagner]

Like powerful and scary. It's like, you know, a shawl collar would be too cuck. Anyway. Don't take that suggestion lightly, jbl. That's what I'm saying. Like, fair. I. They don't get Save America act passed, Fine. Or they do get Save America act passed, and they have. Dhs, has all the voter rolls and dhs, tsa, ice, all these agencies go out on a hunt for voters who aren't here in the country legally, who don't exist. By the way, I think the incidence of illegal residents voting is like 0.0000. I can't say the number of zeros. There's so many. It would go past our normal podcast time. It's vanishing. But it is a great way to terrify black and brown people and keep them away from polls and otherwise create chaos and suggest to the public that whatever happened in Fulton county or Maricopa county was not on the level, and therefore those results should be discounted. And Mike Johnson don't seat anybody from those districts and keep the gavel in your hands. So that's.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yes. So that's the thing. Right. And what it's really about is about seating winners. Right. I. I don't. So you can send ice out to polling places. You can do it strategically and go to areas where you think you can depress Democratic Turnout by like, 1%. Right. You know, or 2%, where in swing seats. That might be enough. But the real game is to try to get to a point where, hey, if we keep it close enough where we've only lost X number of seats. Right. We could maybe make a play to have Mike Johnson or have the state secretaries of state not certify results in certain play. Right. You can see that that's in. The more chaos you have, the more room to maneuver you have if you want to do that sort of thing. And that worries me. Worries me more about 2028 than 2026, because I don't think 2026 is likely to be clear close enough for anything to. I mean, I think the Dems could wind up with 60 seats in the House. I mean, you just look at all of the, all of the data that you normally see in off years, running up with, like, retirements and special elections. Like, it's so unambiguous. It's. I mean, it just looks like Republicans have taken 15 points off the top. Yeah, they have just gone, you know, and at that level, if you then have macroeconomic conditions moving in the wrong direction on top of that stuff, like, I mean, you know, Alaska and Texas are kind of in play, which is crazy. I. I don't know. I. I don't know about the Senate. I think the Senate is probably a coin flip, but it's. It's possible. But the House could be really bad for Republicans, don't you think? What do you think?

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, I think the House could be.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Do you think, like. Oh, I think the House seats, or do you think this could be, like, Hulk splash?

[Alex Wagner]

I get lulled into the. You know, I guess when we break apart the maps and we look at how close they're just. It's hard to have a landslide. I mean, you'd really. It would have to be like, districts that went 24 points for Trump would have to be flipped. Right. Like, maybe that'll happen. I don't know what's happening. We're seeing strange, abnormal things happen in the universe. So, like, perhaps. Perhaps that's possible. I don't know. But I still. I mean, I think it will be a solid enough majority that chicanery like Adelita Grijalva not being seated for, like, 10 years is gonna be very hard for even a morally compromised person like Mike Johnson.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Let me ask you a question. Do you think they try to push the through one or two Supreme Court replacements?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, interesting you're asking me that, because I'm just writing a book that's coming out this fall about the Supreme Court. I think we can pretty much be guaranteed Thomas or Alito or maybe both retirement at the end of this term. They'll go out with a bang. They'll gut the rest of the Voting Rights act and God knows what else. Maybe they'll overturn Obergefell. Like, they'll go out big.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Why not, right? Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

But, yeah, I absolutely think they're gonna give Trump two more appointments, and he's gonna choose, like, a zygote.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Eileen Cannon. Yeah, it'll be great, right?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, but actually, in the way that we can see bad things on the margins being good for Democrats, maybe in the medium to long term, having, you know, reinjecting the urgency around the court onto the ballot in 2026 is gonna be important. Right. Because there are also liberal justices who are getting older, too. I'm not gonna name names. Sotomayor, but, like, it's a live issue.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Doesn't matter, because we gotta expand the court anyway.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, there's that. Get rid of the filibuster, ban the court. Here we go. The JBL administration.

[Jonathan V. Last]

This is a thing that I've really flipped on and come to believe over the last decade.

[Alex Wagner]

Look at what's happened to you Bulwark people. It's like. It's like crazy. You're crazy like foxes.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, maybe. Maybe it's nuts. Where do you.

[Alex Wagner]

No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not opposed to it. I just feel like. Like, I sometimes listen to Tim and I'm like, babies come. So far.

[Jonathan V. Last]

So this. So here's the thing, right? So expanding the court would not be the best reform, Right? The best reform would be to, like, regularize the appointments so that it's like every two years you have another one. And so that. That's. That's the best way to do it. And have to remember, but that's not achievable under the Constitution. You can't do that. You can expand the court. And so do you take the reform that is okay and pretty good and is helpful, but isn't perfect, or do you pretend that you are wedded to doing it the perfect way, even though that's technically impossible because we can't do big constitutional amendments like that anymore. And I feel like, well, the answer is obvious. You got to expand the court. And I just don't. I guess I don't really see at this late date a serious reason not to.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. I think it just, it's about how much sort of you accept that things have changed.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And that we're in an entirely different universe. And I think that there's some people, and I get this, there's a desire to think that the unknown future can also be a return to the glory days of the past. Like that we can, that you can go home again. And I think, think, I mean, I understand the impulse towards that, but I'm more in agreement with you, which is Donald Trump changed everything. And what's most, I think, permanent about that is that he was reelected and that the American public chose him. And that means we are a different country than we thought we were 10 years ago. And therefore the people who are the opposite party in the United States.

[Jonathan V. Last]

He's trying to reset to normal and it didn't work. Right. I mean, say what you. I mean, it was a theory. Right. I mean he could have, he could have been a reform minded guy who decided we're going to Trump proof the federal government, but instead he was like, nope, we're going to all hold hands and fake it till we make it. We're going to do legislation and we're going to spend money on rural broadband for red state voters and infrastructure and we're going to try to let that poison go away. Yeah. And it just didn't. That just isn't where America is anymore. In all sorts of constitutional mechanisms it turns out don't work.

[Alex Wagner]

It's an alarming time.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I do not understand people who aren't alarmed.

[Alex Wagner]

It's to our point earlier about like, if you're not alarmed, then it doesn't matter if you don't see the audio and video. If your cortisol levels are not like elevated, then it's not gonna move people. And so therefore, you know, what do they say? Desperate times call for desperate measures. And keeping up desperation, I guess is the key to political change. Which is a dark as fuck assessment. But what did I expect when I invited the brilliant Jonathan V. Last on this program?

[Jonathan V. Last]

That's what I'm here for.

[Alex Wagner]

This is what we love. This is what we need. We need a dose of dark wisdom. And that's why we asked you to come on the show. And may I say, you did not disappoint.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[Alex Wagner]

I like when friends from the Bulwark come and visit us. Hopefully one day we can do this in person and break bread.

[Jonathan V. Last]

I can't wait. I can't wait.

[Alex Wagner]

Jbl.

[Jonathan V. Last]

If people aren't subscribed to this, what the fuck are they even thinking? This is like one of the best

[Alex Wagner]

shows in the world. Please.

[Jonathan V. Last]

In the world.

[Alex Wagner]

Please, please. Oh, my God.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Come on. Come on, people.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you for saying Ride with Alex Jonathan V Last. Thank you so much for your time and just the pep you put in my step today, even though it's a dark pep.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Thanks for having me, Bae.

[Alex Wagner]

Please, let's do this again.

[Jonathan V. Last]

100%.

[Alex Wagner]

That is our show for this week. Please don't forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. We have a bunch of YouTube exclusive content up there, like this week's rapid response video with the New Yorker's Evan Osnos.

[Jonathan V. Last]

This is the world of the jungle. And this is the world that Stephen Miller thought they wanted when he said that it was gonna be the iron law of strength, the way the world has always operated. Well, congratulations, gentlemen.

[Alex Wagner]

This is the world you've got. Also, if you're not tired of hearing from me yet, please check out my substack, how the hell with Alex Wagner. And last but not least, if you have been impacted directly by the Trump administration or its policies, send us an email or a one minute voice [e-mail] and we may be in touch to feature your story. A huge thank you to everyone who has written in already. Thanks for listening. Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our senior producer is Elonim and our producer is Emma Ilick Frank. Production support from Megan Larson and Lacey Roberts. The show is mixed and edited by Charlotte Landis. Ben Hethcote is our video producer and Matt De Groat is our head of production. Audio support comes from Kyle Seglin. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. Katie Long is our executive producer of development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Quick question. Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted if you said yes to both? Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan. And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco. And we're the hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture, and not losing their minds in the process. We break down the news, call out the nonsense, and spotlight the women actually fighting back on Capitol Hill, in classrooms and everywhere, the stakes are high. It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero hand holding. Listen to hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube. In a world where business owners everywhere

[Jonathan V. Last]

are burning out, I just can't do it anymore and are losing their identities to AI.

[Alex Wagner]

Who even am I?

[Jonathan V. Last]

Only one website builder can save humanity from generic websites. It's here. It's really here. WIX Harmony Where AI meets hands on control so you can build the website you want exactly the way you want. Try it for [e-mail] Harmony

[Alex Wagner]

the sun shining, birds are singing and all feels right in the world.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Until the season changes and suddenly you lose your motivation to get out of bed. In fact, one in five people experience some form of depression no matter matter the season or time of year.

[Alex Wagner]

At the American Psychiatric association foundation, our vision is to build a mentally healthy nation for all because we want you to live your best life and be your best you all year round.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Please visit mentallyhealthynation.org to learn more.