Mohammad Aracheti (5:49)

Well, thank you for the invite and the opportunity. Well, the first week where the war started, most of the complaints and requests and information requests and inquiries were based on request of repatriation. The number was very small referring to lack of food and provisions. But from the fourth week of the war we observed that the more and more complaints of deceiver include lack unsorted food. The space is limited on the ship. So of course everything has to be supplied from ashore. If the ships are normally trading in an area, you know, seven, seven days normally they don't take even provisions for one month because the ship owners normally look where it is cheap. So if the vessel is trading from Norway and export will be Turkey, but they will obviously wait for Turkey or Egypt to buy.

Alex Wagner (6:40)

So they try and find supplies in cheaper parts of the world, but they're not able to move.

Mohammad Aracheti (6:46)

And when this happens, then you are stuck in the middle of the almost strait.

Alex Wagner (6:52)

You're saying that most of these ships are not equipped to be floating and basically in a holding pattern for weeks if not months on end. They have supplies for several days and then the expectation is they're going to restock and in a different port or a different area that's not happening. So they're forced to rely on what they do have on board. And the reports we're hearing, I'm thinking of this Wall Street Journal article in particular make it sound like a really dire situation. There's the question of food and drinking water, but then there's just the basic, you know, necessities for living that they need, that they need to procure on the ship. It says that some. The Wall Street Journal reports that some Chinese crew members have been collecting condensate from air conditioning units for their non drinking water needs. I mean, is anybody able to help these guys out or is the situation precarious enough that they really do just need to find whatever they can on board their ships.

Mohammad Aracheti (7:51)

What you are saying is absolutely true. I mean here the reality is much worse than our imagination. We refer to this also situation you have been describing exist not all your situations and exist and we have been denouncing them for, for years now. When someone is put on Board someone from Egypt, Myanmar, Philippines, India or Indonesia is put on a vessel owned in France, Germany, Spain or Emirates or any place on Australia or anywhere. The seafarers here is the one vulnerable, is the one very exposed. The Seafari cannot go out even to beg for food. He has immigration. The war has come to reveal dramatic situations of exploitation that already exist from one side. Just to reveal them, just expose them. Expose more what we have already, because we have cases now of seafarers who come to us in Iran. I have just a couple of cases asking me, please, we want to go home. We are for Indians. We just want to go home. So your request is that we help you to go home? Yes, sir. Okay. And I have a curiosity. Do you have any issue with the money? Oh, well, we have not been paid for eight months. Okay. So sorry. You don't want only to go home. You want to go home and get the. IT help, get your wages and how much is that? Eight months. So. So you see? So this is a case of abandonment.

Alex Wagner (9:24)

This is a situation where these. These seafarers, the people that are crewing these ships, are really hostage. Not just physically, they can't leave the ship, but financially, like, they haven't been paid, so they're forced to stay on the ship or come up with some deal with their employers in an insanely unpredictable situation that's incredibly dangerous.

Mohammad Aracheti (9:48)

Absolutely. Because if they leave the vessel, a vessel that is owned in country A, the management is in a country B, the real owner, the real beneficial owner, you don't know even who he is. You don't know if he's a physical person or he is an investment company. You don't know who he is. The CIFR is exposed and is vulnerable and is systemically exploited by bad, cheap owners. There are some kirwans who just make money in total impunity, not hesitating to use modern slavery, because this is what it is.

Alex Wagner (10:26)

I wonder if you could give me a sense of, you know, you're getting these WhatsApp messages, you're getting text messages from these people who are at the center of a conflict zone and who went not having any expectation that they would be stuck in the middle of a conflict zone. Right. Are they scared? I mean, I wanna get to the sort of developments of this week in a second. But have they been scared that they're gonna die? I would imagine it feels incredibly perilous to be where they are now.

Mohammad Aracheti (10:55)

Request we have received has been. Can be typified as normal. All of them were extraordinary panic Stress, some of them crying. Please get me out of here. So please help me to go. I just want to go home. I have a family, I have kids. I put emphasis on this, that all the calls we do receive, 1 o' clock in the morning, 3 o' clock in the morning, you awake, you see that you have a WhatsApp message. But you look, you see that there are four, seven calls. Because it was the moment when he had access to Internet. So it was the moment he has to send message. Part of the ones who were sending us these messages from Iraq, from Kuwait, from Emirates, they were sending us videos and pictures. Look, there is a bombing. At one mile from us there is a bombing. The port has been attacked. So they take videos, they take, you know, and then you have the father, the family, the wife texting you, please help our family to come, to come home. Yes, it is really, really, it is really, yeah.

Alex Wagner (11:59)

President Trump announced a ceasefire this week. Do you think life will get better for these safarers? I mean are you optimistic that ships will begin passage through the strait? Iran is saying that it will allow non hostile ships to pass through. Are people taking a chance on that? Are these crews going start sailing?

Mohammad Aracheti (12:17)

Well the ITF we have just issued this morning a press release welcoming this at our political level. Now what we need to see is concrete steps how this will develop. So we are, it's too early now to, to, to evaluate how this will be done in the field because there is a lot of logistics there to be done. For example, I have a case in Iraq and we were working with the company to evacuate because it's rather than repatriation, it's more than evacuation because it's a war and these are civilians. So instead of the options they were working on to repatriate in them through Turkey or Armenia or Jordan, now hopefully with the ceasefire, maybe the airports in Iraq are open then is more easy for these guys. For example, 11 seafarers from Indonesia who are eager to leave can, can, can go home. We have this Takvis crew in Iran where the airports are also closed. So these seafarers, foreign seafarers, not local Iranians can go home hopefully. So this certainly the ceasefire opens a big hope. So this is a good decision, is welcome. And what we need now is to see concrete steps on the field how this can be durable and guaranteed. Because the CFR should have never been exposed to this. It should be never exposed.

Alex Wagner (13:44)

Yeah, I've been thinking so much about them because they're the linkage in this entire sort of global economy that people I think hear less from but are integral to the functioning of a global economy. So what an extraordinary situation they are in and what a dire situation. It's so it's so helpful to hear your perspective. You're the mouthpiece for them because we obviously can't speak with the people who are stranded without Internet in dire perilous situations. So thank you so much for taking the time to help us understand what's going on aboard those ships.

Mohammad Aracheti (14:20)

All thanks to you for wanting to put the light on these notorious realities which are not known for the big public. Part of the battle is in the public opinion. So the more public opinion knows about this, more awareness rises and more pressure surely on the one who take political decisions can take in favor of the seafarers. So thank you

Alex Wagner (14:46)

after the break putting this all into context with Brian Tyler Cohen. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Financial stress affects far more than our bank accounts. It can take a serious toll on mental health and relationships. With 88% of Americans feeling some form of financial stress at the start of 2026, money worries can cause anxiety. They can disrupt your sleep, they can even cause depression. This month we want to normalize the emotional weight of financial stress and remind people that struggling with money does not mean they failed. Sometimes it's just about accessing the right kind of support. Therapy isn't about financial advice. It's about managing the stress, shame or anxiety that can come with it. Therapy can help people unpack their relationship with money, build healthier coping strategies and feel less alone in the process. So find a quality therapist with BetterHelp. The platform does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their over 12 years of experience and even industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com Runawaycountry that's betterhelp.com Runawaycountry Runaway country is brought to you by Helix. A good night's rest sets you up for a great day. Ain't that the truth? That is why the Runaway country team trusts Helix Mattresses to make sure we're getting the most out of our sleep. My producer Emma, a person of sterling character. She's had her Helix mattress for a couple of months now and she's also a certified Insomniac. It's tough to have such good character and also never sleep. But anyway, she's pretty picky when it comes to her sleeping conditions. And she says the Helix Midnight Luxe mattress is perfect for sleepers like her who are looking for something that is is not too firm and not too soft. Dare I say Goldilocks. She also recommends getting as large a size as your home will allow, so you too can erect a pillow barricade between you and your migratory boyfriend. Oh, Emma. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the US they offer a 120 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. Plus you can rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. So go to helixsleep.com Alex for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com Alex for twenty percent off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you helixsleep.com Alex. Brian Tyler Cohen, I, as you know, as everyone is, I am a longtime fan. This is the first time you've been on Runaway country and what a motherfucking week to come on. We had to change our taping time

Brian Tyler Cohen (17:49)

because, well, we weren't sure if a country of 93 million people was gonna exist today. So.

Alex Wagner (17:54)

And boy are we glad that it does. But we needed to make sure we had conclusive. We believe that we had some kind of even temporary conclusion on that question. Before we started, Brian, before I spoke with you, I spoke with a representative from the international like effectively Seafarers Union who is in touch with all the seafarers, the captains and the crew members who are stuck on these ships in the Strait of Hormuz. And let me tell you, like Trump may wanna be like declaring victory on all that, but the situation there is so dire and so perilous. And I think while I'm a fan of peace, we are gonna look at all of this with a gimlet eye because a lot of the stuff that the President is trying to shove down the American people's throats is totally bogus. So I wanted to get into this kind of the domestic implications of all of this with you. Firstly, the biggest picture, the idea that the Mad King is threatening war crimes to secure a two week ceasefire. Good strategy, Brian, bad strategy. Do you have thoughts on that?

Brian Tyler Cohen (19:01)

I'm gonna fall on the bad strategy end of this. Look, I think for Trump normally, like A normal human being who is not a sociopath would think twice about the prospect of engaging in full blown genocide and full blown nuclear war. But Trump has no personal skin in the game. And so for him, there's really no downside. I mean, for normal people, if they're thinking about sending soldiers to the Middle east where they're dying or getting wounded and injured, I mean, that weighs heavily on them. But for Trump, I mean, he's not going. His kids are, aren't going. So, you know, it's no skin off his back. You know, it doesn't cost him any money. And so he's perfectly content to take all of the funding for domestic priorities and put it toward the defense budget or ask for this $200 billion supplemental, whatever comes first. And so it's not his money, it's house money that he's playing with. And so for Trump, the stakes are so low because he's not personally impacted. He doesn't have any skin in the game here. And his focus has always been on just building his legacy. He wants to be king of the world, he wants to be kingmaker, he wants to topple regimes. He did it in Venezuela pretty easily, and so now his sights get set on Iran, where he thought he could do it easily as well. And he's already previewed that he wants to do the same thing in Cuba. And so this is all about his ego and building up his legacy. That's why instead of making healthcare more affordable in America, he's focused on his ballroom. That's why instead of making sure that food assistance is available for the hungriest Americans, he's focused on building an arch in D.C. that's why instead of lowering costs for Americans, he stuck his name on the Kennedy center and is renovating the marble there. I mean, everything that he's doing is about bolstering his own legacy, and none of it is about helping regular people or taking into account how regular people are being impacted by all of this. So this is a legacy play. And when Trump has no personal skin in the game, the sky's the limit. And if that means threatening nuclear war and the total annihilation of an entire civilization, clearly he has no qualms about doing it.

Alex Wagner (21:05)

I mean, it's just a sign of the times, isn't it, that, like, his version of not having any skin in the game is not giving shit about whether or not the US Extinguishes a civilization. Like, just. Let's just hang on the sadistic impulse of that, that, like the extinguishing of life en masse, killing hundreds of thousands if not millions of people is like no issue for Trump, cuz they're not people he knows. Like that is a statement of priorities and a real denial of like basic shared humanity. It is some dark shit that he is so easily able to threaten genocide with no particular compunction, you know, with no pause. I do wonder, I mean we sit here and like there's so much of this is a quickly moving weather front, but as we sit right now, there's this very fragile ceasefire and I am skeptical that any of the things Trump says he's gonna get out of a potential deal with Iran are even gonna come to pass. Right. Like he already is referring to what's happened in Iran as regime change. Like this morning on Truth Social, he's calling it regime change. It is actually the inversion of whatever regime change is. It is like a dynastic continuation, a

Brian Tyler Cohen (22:19)

continuation of Khomeini's son who is younger and so inherently he has more staying power than his 86 year old ill father had. And so all he's done is like basically entrenched the regime by replacing, you know, the fragile part of that regime with somebody who is much less fragile and if reports are correct, somebody who's more hardline than his father was and

Alex Wagner (22:40)

by the way, who was not seen and I'm not an Iran, you know, watcher in any sort of close fashion, but every bit of reporting I've heard is that the second Ayatollah Khamenei was not the shoo in for leadership after his father died, but because of the way Trump managed this war, he became the shoo in. And like he not only did Trump not change the regime, he had a chance at having a more, I suppose, democratically focused individual at the top power position, but foreclosed that by launching this ill advised war of choice. I digress. I think for some people, Brian, like they're like, and I speak from an American perspective, there's a part of the American audience that's not gonna really know or give a shit about like who' leading Iran. So they'll take Trump's assertion of regime change maybe, and not think too much about it. But the one thing Americans do know about is how much their gas costs. And to me that's where Trump's plan to just lie to everybody and assume nobody pays any attention is totally flawed. Gas prices are still above $4 a gallon. I think you live in the Republic of California where they're like $15 a gallon.

Brian Tyler Cohen (23:47)

Yeah.

Alex Wagner (23:47)

People understand gas prices. And I was struck by this bit of reporting in the New York Times today. It's like you can figure out whatever arrangement you want with Iran in the Strait of Hormuz, but gas prices are gonna stay high because. And I'll read you this excerpt, Brian. Then get your thoughts. Dozens of refineries, storage facilities, and oil and gas fields in at least nine countries from Iran to the UAE and beyond have been targeted in these strikes. All told, I didn't know this. 10% or more of the world's oil supply has been turned off. Restarting those operations will require not only safe passage through the strait, but also inspecting pumps, replacing bespoke processing equipment, and recalling employees and ships that have scattered across the globes. Also, once you turn off an oil or gas well, it's really difficult to restart them. This is a problem that does not resolve itself by Friday. And I wonder how significant you think that is for a president who tends to just lie and assume nobody will, that reality won't catch up with him.

Brian Tyler Cohen (24:51)

I think that's exactly right. And look, these prices aren't going to come down anytime soon. As it, as it goes with gas prices rising anyway, they always go up like a rocket and come down like a feather, and that's without major infrastructure being destroyed. So I wouldn't expect any of these prices to come down anytime soon, which means the cost of goods is not going to come down anytime soon because those costs are all impacted by high oil prices, because it costs more money to transport all of this stuff. But I think more broadly, like taking a step back from all of this, the irony of Trump engaging in all of this behavior isn't lost on me, given the fact that this is the issue on which he ran and won in 2024. If anybody understands the potency of high prices and the pain that it inflicts on Americans, it's Donald Trump. He's admitted that, you know, that old fashioned word of groceries is why he won the election. So he knows because he exploited this issue every fucking day on the campaign trail in 2024. And yet now the first thing he did when he got into office was launch a trade war that raised the cost of everything. One big beautiful bill. Cut Medicaid from 17 million Americans, cut food assistance to the tune of $186 billion. Then the Republicans refused to, to continue those ACA subsidies that impacts 24 million Americans. And so, you know, and then on top of that, you've got high gas prices that are gonna impact everything. And everyone. And so if anybody understands this issue, it's Trump, because again, he, he ran and won on this issue. But it just goes to show that he has, he has contempt for his own voters, that, that he was perfectly content to exploit this issue when it meant that he could, you know, get something from, from these people, which, namely their votes. But now that he's in office, now that he's got power, he doesn't care anymore. And he'll turn around and watch prices rise on everything and have not a second thought about any of it.

Alex Wagner (26:43)

So the White House, it's just really clear from the reporting that they really did not gain this one out in any sort of reasonable way. And Susie Wiles, according to the New York Times, was the President's chief of staff, was the one who was like, just a note, like, if gas prices go high, maybe that's not a great thing for the midterm elections we have rolling around in a couple months. I will also say I sound like a CNBC reporter, but the summer travel vacation season is upon us. And what gets more expensive, driving and flying in airplanes. The American audience is gonna continue to feel the. After this is assuming the ceasefire holds, right? The American audience is gonna continue to feel the pain of Trump's war. And it's not a mystery why it's happened in part, Brian, because, you know, Trump, Trump played his hand so badly in this. Not just in not understanding what the implications of his war of choice might be, but also in expressing. I was super surprised by this. I mean, nothing he does should surprise me, but he was so clearly obsessed with the Strait of Hormuz and has been for this entire time. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why gas prices are high. I mean, Trump basically put a neon sign above the straight and was like, this is a major political problem for me and I need the Iranians to fix it. And I will draw everybody's attention to the tweet that shocked the conscience this weekend when he wrote publicly, open the fucking straight, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. Just watch. And then, praise be to Allah. We'll set aside the, like Islamic faith.

Brian Tyler Cohen (28:18)

Praise be to Allah. Just your standard, standard Easter messaging there.

Alex Wagner (28:22)

Were you surprised by how emotionally naked he was about all of this? It's such bad strategy.

Brian Tyler Cohen (28:29)

Everything he does is ham handed. But, but I think, I think, you know, it was, it was poor strategy because it shows the, the Iranians, it shows the rest of the world that while he may come out on a daily basis, and say, you know what, the strait's going to open itself. We don't need the strait. Europe's going to take care of the strait. And then you see like that, that moment of, of just naked vulnerability where he's like, open the fucking strait. And that doesn't happen. If you think like you've said before, that it's going to take care of itself or that Europe's going to take care of it or that your, you know, that your hands are clean. He showed his entire ass for some good imagery here. Showed his entire ass in that moment. And I think that that showed the Iranians that like they have a major point of leverage and the whole world knows that if there's one thing Americans care about, it's oil prices. Like my whole life we have been fighting wars for oil. Even Trump himself admitted that when he wanted regime change in Venezuela, it was for oil. So like Iran has this major point of leverage over the United States. And Trump keeps, because again he's ham handed, keeps putting on full display how much power they actually have and how weak his hand actually is.

Alex Wagner (29:40)

What surprises me is that he hasn't, it's like he thinks he can just strong arm them into doing something. And like even today as we sit, there's like a 10 point plan the Iranians have put forward or a 15 point plan. I can't remember who has a 10 point plan. Who has a 15 point plan?

Brian Tyler Cohen (29:55)

Yeah, I think the Iranians had the 10 point plan and that was the one.

Alex Wagner (29:58)

The Iranians having a 10 point plan that gives them full control of the Strait of Hormuz. And Trump is over here being like, we're gonna do a co production. Like I don't know if we're gonna call it the straight A Trump, but we're gonna co own it. It's like, hey bro, like you can't just manifest that.

Brian Tyler Cohen (30:11)

And not only that, like they can also charge tolls now going through. So they're gonna make a boatload of money by reopening the strait that was already open before we engaged in any of this. So at the end of the day, what we have to show from this whole like multi billion dollar engagement is that Iran has the ability to make even more money than before. We've had American service members who've died, American service members who've been injured are standing in. The world of course is decimated because the leader of the United States is threatening outright genocide. And so do we have anything, anything positive to show from this whole thing?

Alex Wagner (30:46)

Well, at least We've relaxed oil sanctions on Russian oil and put more money in Vladimir Putin's pocket at the precise time that he's fighting the Ukrainians in a war for democracy. And thank God we've eased sanctions on Iranian oil and put more money in the hands of an even more hardline regime. Cool. What a win. More with Brian right after a quick break. Runaway country is brought to you by Wild Alaskan Company. The best way to get wild caught perfectly portioned, nutrient dense seafood delivered directly to your door. Trust me, you have not tasted fish this good. It is 100% wild caught and never farmed. That means there are no antibiotics, GMOs or additives lives just clean, real fish that support healthy oceans and fishing communities. It is full of flavor. Wild Alaskan fish is frozen right off the boat to lock in taste and texture and nutrients like Those all important Omega 3s. My favorite kind. I mean, I feel like I want to say a new fish every week, but it just, it's sockeye salmon. It's so beautiful. Like you just feel the health entering your veins. If you are not completely satisfied with your first box, Wild Alaskan Company will give you a full refund. No questions asked, no risk, just high quality seafood. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com Alex for $35 off your first box of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com Alex For $35 off your first order. Thank you to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode. We have a new sponsor, MSI Reproductive Choices. They are one of the biggest providers of contraception and safe abortion access across Africa and Asia and they serve women who have little to no options for care. Women with limited choices do not stop being women. They don't stop ovulating when it becomes inconvenient and they never stop deserving autonomy. These women need control of their bodies so they can stay in school, so they can make decisions about how many children they want and so they can take time to recover after one birthday before getting pregnant again. MSI Reproductive Choices is one of the few women's health organizations that is still going strong despite all the cuts in foreign aid because they planned ahead and started reaching out to regular people like all of you, my generous and amazing listeners. For just $30 you can give a year of contraception to six women. That is a crazy level of personal impact. Text my last name Wagner. That's W A G N E R to 511-511- and make a donation MSI United States today. You can also learn more on their website, MSI United States.org M for Modern, S for Safe. I for Informed. MSI United States.org or text my last name Wagner to 51151 1. That's Wagner to 511511 or visit MSI United States.org today to help out and change someone's life for the better. Text fees may apply. I mean, I do I have to say that for a minute this week, it felt like, I mean, on Tuesday, when Trump was really threatening to destroy a civilization, using social media to issue his threats, Democrats and some prominent conservatives were like, okay, enough here. It's time to invoke the 25th Amendment. I wanna play for you some sound from Ro Khanna, who is probably one of the more prominent Democr Democrats calling for the invocation of that amendment.

Brian Tyler Cohen (34:18)

If the United States Congress has any life left in it, Every member of Congress and Senator must be calling for Trump's removal today based on the 25th Amendment. He is threatening the entire destruction of a civilization. He is calling Iranians animals. He is showing a total disregard for the humanity of people in Iran, in Gaza, in Cuba. This is a movie. It is a war crime. We need to be demanding that Congress convene today and we need to be invoking the 25th Amendment.

Alex Wagner (34:50)

Okay, what happens now, Brian? I mean, the dude is not any less crazy. It's not like he's a different person today. But should Democrats drop the calls? I mean, what do you think from a progressive standpoint?

Brian Tyler Cohen (35:00)

The right move here is, I think, on two fronts. It's the right move to continue pushing this forward because one is the moral thing to do. Like, like you said, Trump is not a different person. This is the same ass guy who yesterday called for the, you know, the genocide of 93 million people. That's who he is. Like, because he's not saying it outright today doesn't mean, doesn't make it any less him or reflective of his beliefs. And so from a moral perspective, absolutely, it's the right thing to do. And from, you know, more of a strategic or political perspective, I think every day that, that we put Trump on defense is, is a day that he's not able to, to go on offense. And this is somebody who has shown, like, a really impressive ability to navigate the media and to garner positive coverage for himself or positive spin for himself. But if you're contending with calls for your own cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment or for Congress to impeach this President, I think inherently you don't have a leg to stand on in terms of being on offense here. And so politically speaking, morally speaking, I think that calling for this guy

Mohammad Aracheti (36:06)

to

Brian Tyler Cohen (36:06)

be taken out of this position is the right thing to do. And I'm curious what your thoughts are on this.

Alex Wagner (36:14)

I mean, look, I think he's completely unfit for office. I think anybody that issues genocidal calls standing next to a fucking Easter Bunny. Do you remember that optic? This person is unhinged. I mean, it really. I thought that the truth social was indicative of someone who really has lost control of his faculties. And I don't mean that in like he's shitting his pants, though that may be happening too. I don't even know. But just he has no control anymore. And any bit of reporting about his stewardship of this shows someone who has no idea what the fuck he's doing in the sit room. That is all hugely terrifying to me as an American citizen and it should be alarming to everybody. But I do worry about if Democrats go back to impeachment or the 25th Amendment. I worry that there's some part of the. And I don't know enough about where the electorate's feelings are on all of this. And I think it'll take some time to settle and the gas prices are sure to inform it. But I don't know where, you know, sort of Trump leaning independents are on that and whether that overplays the Democrats. I think very strong hand heading into November. Right. I believe that the moral thing to do would be to get this guy out of office. But in terms of a piece of political strategy, to me it seems like it can't just be Democrats leading the charge. The only thing that matters is when Democrats reach way across the aisle and pull in some of Trump's own bait on this. They may have an assist because there are people that are prominent voices from MAGA World who have been very skeptical of the President launching this war of choice. Let's just play the sound this week from Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly, who did not mince words.

Brian Tyler Cohen (37:50)

This is a mockery not just of Islam, it's a mockery of Christianity. To send out a tweet with the F word on Easter morning promising the murder of civilians and then saying praise be to Allah without explaining any of it. You are mocking me and every other

Mohammad Aracheti (38:05)

Christian because we're Christians.

Brian Tyler Cohen (38:06)

Oh, I get it. We can't support that.

Alex Wagner (38:10)

I mean, I don't know about you, but I am sick of this shit. I'M just. I'm. I'm sick of it. Can he just behave like a normal human? I mean, honestly, like the President? 3 AD. Yes. Shut up. Fucking shut up about that shit. You don't threaten to wipe out an entire civilization. We're talking about civilians just casually in a social media post. Okay? What's interesting to me about both Tucker and Megan in those clips is we're beyond the. You betrayed us by engaging in foreign intervention and launching, you know, military adventurism overseas. That was a betrayal of ma Core MAGA principles. This is something else. This is. Is. You're an asshole. You are actively insulting me and my beliefs and also. Fuck off. Enough with that shit. To me, it seems way more emotionally charged and way deeper than just a sort of foreign policy betrayal. What do you think?

Brian Tyler Cohen (39:10)

Look, these people have all hitched their wagon to Trump's. And so when he does these increasingly unpopular things, like, it weighs on them. Their job is to defend him. That's their brand. That's the entire Republican Party's brand. They're all just on the Trump train. That's what the GOP is. Whatever. It's. It's blindly defending whatever errant synapse fires in his brain and words fall out of his mouth that becomes gospel on the right. And their job is. Is to. Is to blindly defer to him every step of the way. And so, you know, that's proving increasingly, like, when he's on the campaign trail. Sure, you can say whatever you want, but it becomes increasingly difficult when you actually are in a position of power and all you do is show contempt for your own voters and your own supporters by doing the polar opposite of everything that you campaigned on and then, like, engaging in just this batshit crazy behavior, like calling for the, you know, the annihilation of 93 million people in Iran. And so, of course, like, it's. That his words are making their lives more difficult and they don't want that. Like, that glide path is gone again. When he's in the minority or on the campaign trail, it's easy because the sky's the limit. But now, when he actually has power, it reflects poorly off of them because these people are just mini magas. Like, that's all they are.

Alex Wagner (40:31)

Do you think it's lasting? I feel like this is. I don't know. I mean, I don't wanna be the person that's always like, oh, this is when he's losing the base. But I do think, especially Tucker, who's been very much riding the, like, the Iran War is gonna be the end of your presidency. This feels significant. Although. How many times have I said that? And then they always go back to daddy. I don't know. I just. Like it's once burned, twice shy, but I don't know the language. Even Megyn Kelly saying, enough with that shit. Just shut the fuck up. That seems new.

Brian Tyler Cohen (41:00)

It's what I worry about too. And like, you look at the potency of even the ICE killings, like the killing of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy, and it feels like a lifetime away. And at the time, it felt like, okay, this is. So how could people forget about this? But the news cycle moves so quickly that, you know, it's. The onus is on the pro democracy ecosystem to remind people of that. But then you, you've, you know, 10 things have happened since then. I mean, we've been on the brink of nuclear war since then. So will it last? I don't. I don't know. In this, in this, with the speed with which this news cycle moves, I don't know if anything has staying power. But, but, but what is instructive is looking at his polling, and that's gone. The trajectory of all of his polling is going down. And so he is losing people on the way that he's not getting back. And so you have to imagine that for people who he's lost on the ICE killings, maybe some people have reverted back to the mean and they've come home. Come home to daddy, as you say. But there are gonna be some people who haven't. And then when you have this nuclear war stuff, there are gonna be some people who are gonna be like, that's it, I'm done. But they'll come home. But some people won't. And as it relates to raising gas prices or unaffordable goods or getting their Medicaid or Medicare cut that they relied on, or their food assistance that they relied on because Republicans rely on those programs as well. Like, he will lose people every step of the way, and there will be attrition that won't return. And you're seeing these numbers, you know, play out in all of the polling. And so I don't know what people are gonna be thinking about, you know, come November of 2026. I don't know what the world is gonna look like come November of 2026. I remember sitting, sitting at my desk in January of 2020, and, you know, if you had told me within six weeks the whole world would be masked up and, you know, trying not to die of COVID I would never have believed you. But, you know, but there we were. So I don't know what it's gonna look like a few months from now, but I do know what the polling looks like and what the independents especially look like, and that is that he's losing people every day, that Republicans are losing people every day, that we're seeing elections in places like Texas and Oklahoma. Mar A Lago is now represented by a Democrat in the legislature. Wisconsin. Wisconsin was a state where, if only Hillary Clinton had gone to Wisconsin, the whole course of history might have changed. Democrats have won every state Supreme Court election in Wisconsin since 2017. That state is as close to solidly blue as you can hope from a Rust Belt state. And so these elections don't lie. The polling in large part doesn't lie. The trend lines that we're seeing don't lie. And so, you know, in terms of staying power, there's no guarantees, but all of these numbers tell a pretty clear and consistent story.

Alex Wagner (43:48)

You're so right about, like, there's always gonna be some dutiful children who return to daddy's warm embrace. But what he's doing, which, by the

Brian Tyler Cohen (43:56)

way, I think is, I think Megyn Kelly. I think Megyn Kelly falls into that category, too.

Alex Wagner (44:00)

Well, I think probably not because she actually finds herself aligned, but because it's profitable for Megyn Kelly. Right? Like, it's not that lucrative to just be against, but he is exfoliating some part of his coalition with each one of these things. And if gas prices remain high, there are gonna be people that just give up on him and don't go back to him, whether they vote for Democrats or just stay home in November. Either way, that's a loss for Trump and a gain for Democrats. The other piece of it that we haven't talked about, the threat of anti Semitism is strong in maga. And the sort of, like the crimes of Israel in the war of Gaza and the death of the innocent children who were slaughtered. All of this weighs heavily on the mind of the American public. And you look at the role that Israel is playing in all of this. The reporting from this New York Times piece by Jonathan Swan and Maggie Haberman just shows the way in which Netanyahu led Trump by the nose in the sit room to get involved in this war in Iran despite, I won't say entreaties, but despite intelligence from his own advisor saying, I don't know, man, Israel's plan seems pretty far fetched. And the Times piece concludes something that I think is really Essential to understand as we talk about Trump's control of his base and the degree to which he actually gives a shit about America first principles. Here's what the Times reports. Distrusted as Mr. Netanyahu was by many of President Trump's advisors, Netanyahu's view of the situation in Iran was far closer to Mr. Trump's opinion than the anti interventionists on the Trump team or in the broader America first movement like to admit, admit this had been true for many years. Basically, the Times is saying anybody who really thought the President was America first is lying to themselves. This guy loves decapitating dictators, either physically or, you know, metaphorically. And he's all about going out there and showing American might overseas. I feel like that's a massive betrayal. Right. And to be done at the hands of Israel is a problem for, I think, a lot of MAGA world. Do you think that Trump's given up the ghost on that one?

Brian Tyler Cohen (46:05)

I think absolutely. This has been a recurring theme as far as Trump is concerned. He campaigns in poetry, but when it comes time to govern, it's always the polar opposite. If you think back to his first term, this guy promised an infrastructure law that never materialized. He promised a health care plan that was cheaper and more comprehensive that never materialized. A middle class tax cut that never materialized. A jobs boom that never materialized. A manufacturing renaissance that never materialized. All he did, his only major legislative achievement, was a tax cut that disproportionately benefited millionaires and billionaires. That's it. And then you look at this term and he was like the king of populism, right? He promised cheaper rent and groceries and housing and eggs, like this guy promised. He was so focused on what regular people were feeling that he got so granular as to talk about the price of an egg. And then he gets into office and immediately launches a trade war that sends the cost of everything surging. So forget about your egg being 2 cents more expensive. Now everything is more expensive. Cuts Medicaid, cuts, Medicare, cuts food assistance. Inflation is expected to hit 5.2%, which is double, almost double the rate when Biden left office. Joe Biden, like the biggest, the biggest villain when it comes to inflation in American history. Trump is expected to be double what the rate was when Biden left office. And so everything that he does is him giving up the ghost. Everything that he does is him betraying the con that he unleashed upon Americans when he promised one thing with no intention of doing it. I think that's the worst part. It's like it's one thing to Brian,

Alex Wagner (47:44)

Am I naive, though, like, this let's stop fighting wars in the Middle east thing, Because Trump was out on the, like, early in the 2000 and tens, he was the one saying, like, this is a mistake, that I thought maybe. Maybe he actually kind of believed it. But what has been revealed to me is, like, the man actually believes nothing. He really, truly has no moral compass. Like, this is maybe the one thing I would have given him a little credit on, and, like, he's completely betrayed it and clearly embraces the idea of foreign intervention.

Brian Tyler Cohen (48:12)

Yeah, Yeah, I think. Look, I kind of agree with you where, like, if you had asked me, and granted, I'm a terrible predictor of the future. If I wasn't, then, you know, Hillary Clinton would be president and Kamala Harris would be president. Like, I was convinced that both of those things were gonna happen. So I would have put my money on Trump not engaging in foreign adventurism as well. But, like. But like I said at the top, I mean, I do think that the lore of bolstering his legacy was just so great and he's such a malignant narcissist that when he saw how easy it was in Venezuela, he's like, like, fuck it. I'm just gonna do me. I'm gonna make sure that I can cement my place in the history books, and it's not just gonna be my ballroom and my arch and the Trump Kennedy Center. I'm gonna make sure that the whole world reflects how my hands played a role in this. And I'm gonna make sure South America feels it. I'm gonna make sure the Middle east feels it, that Cuba and Canada and Panama and whatever other country I can get my hands on, that the whole world is gonna look and remember my name when I'm gone. I mean, this is Donald Trump's ego on full display.

Alex Wagner (49:21)

Malignant narcissism always trumps any kind of priority or promise when it comes to Trump. More of my conversation with BTC in just a minute. But first, if you've been following the latest headlines around policing, ICE and immigration enforcement, the Empire City Podcast Club from Crooked Ideas is the place to fully unpack it. Each week, host Chenjerai Komneika and special guests dig into the systems behind those stories. How this power was built, who it serves, and what it means for public safety. Right now, every session focuses on a new theme with space to connect the dots and ask bigger questions. Whether you've been tracking every headline or you're just starting to tune in, you can be part of the conversation. We'll send a reminder before we kick things off. The next session is this Tuesday, April 14th at 5pm Pacific Time, 8pm Eastern Time. Sign up@crookedideas.org EmpireCity Spring is officially here and if you're doing a reset anywhere, let it be your kitchen. Spring is a perfect time to finally toss those scratched, peeling, mismatched pans that you've been hanging onto for way too long. Hexclad combines the performance of stainless steel with the convenience of nonstick so you don't have to choose use. You get incredible heat control, a proper sear which is so key, and easy cleanup every time. No more food sticking or burning or scrubbing forever after dinner. There is a reason Gordon Ramsay uses hexclad at home and in his restaurants, and he's literally the toughest critic on the planet. All hexclad products come with a lifetime warranty. It's literally the last set of pots and pans you are ever gonna have to buy. All right, so like they have a 12 piece set which is basically your lock and load all in one cookware upgrade. It has three pans that you can use basically anywhere, two saucepans and a family size stock pot. Each one of them comes with their own lid which is so primo. The surface of this stuff is easy release, which means that you don't actually have to use a ton of butter oil to get great results. But I still use like lots of butter and oil because I just like the way that tastes. Spring is the perfect time to upgrade your kitchen with cookware that actually works works as hard as we all do. For a limited time, our listeners get 10% off with our exclusive link. Just head to hexclad.com Alex please support our show and check them out at H e x c l-a d.com forward/alex make sure to let them know we sent ya. Let's cook smarter this spring with hexclad's revolutionary cookware. Are you concerned about microplastics in your home? Blueland makes it easy to make sustainable choices. Blueland cleaning sprays, toilet bowl cleaner and dishwasher and laundry detergent tablets are free from dyes, parabens and harsh chemicals. Blueland is a certified B Corp and Leaping Bunny Cruelty Free certified. Their formulas are EPA Safer Choice certified and many products have also earned Cradle to Cradle's Gold Material health certificate. Get 15% off your first order by going to blueland.com crooked blueland.com crooked. I have to say I expect Nothing from the Republican Party, really nothing. But even I was surprised that someone like Joni Ernst, who sits in the Senate, which by Constitution is one of the two congressional bodies authorized to take this country to war, someone like Joni Ernst, who is retiring from the Senate, who represents the state that is getting absolutely fucked by these fuel shortages and energy crisis that's happening around the globe, but is affecting the agricultural sector, which is important to her home state of Iowa. Even someone like that could not say a critical word about Donald Trump and his insanity. This is what she said. She called the Armageddon talk, the talk of extinguishing the civilization of Iran. She called that him venting his frustration and called his threat leverage. I don't know, Brian. Like, when I hear this stuff, I'm like, okay, they're never ever gonna take on their responsibilities. Even the ones who are retiring are like kind of closed mouth. And I think about optimistically, what happens if Democrats control both houses of Congress, the Senate and the House. And to me, honestly, this kind of stuff makes the case for getting rid of the filibuster. It's like, okay, if you guys aren't gonna take any vote votes, we're gonna start taking some fucking votes. And like, sometimes they're gonna be tough votes and sometimes they're gonna be revelatory votes that make you, Joni Ernst, take an active stance in voting for a war that's fucking your own state over that, you know, is wildly irresponsible at best. But it is time for these Republicans to be held accountable and it's time for Congress to do some legislating. I have long been an institutionalist, but moments like this make me feel like, like, fuck it, get rid of it. Like, get rid of it. It's time for the legislative branch to have some balls again. Sorry. Not that you only can be powerful with balls.

Brian Tyler Cohen (54:16)

Yeah, no, I completely agree. I think, look, I've been, God knows how long I've been advocating for the elimination of the filibuster, but I think you're right. And I want to point out, I always make a point to point out that when Trump is doing all of the stuff that he's doing, this is not possible without a compliance Republican Party, like, they own this just as much as he does. And I think perhaps, you know, deservedly, Trump gets all of the credit, blame for everything he does. But none of this happens in Iran unless the Republicans failed to lift a finger. When it came to his threats against Venezuela, when it came to his threats against Panama, his threats against Canada. Like our. Our. Our neighbor Canada, our closest ally Canada. His threats against Europe. Like, all this does is create or establish a precedent where Trump can do whatever he wants, that he knows that he is not bound by an impotent legislative branch of which Republicans control both chambers. And so. And so, like, when they go out on the campaign trail and, you know, it may not be Joni Ernst because she's running for reelection, but, like, it reflects on her party and the rest of these members and senators who are running for reelection, it needs to be clear that none of Trump's behavior would be possible without just how compliant these people are. And so I hope that. And by the way, we're seeing. Americans are recognizing that, and they're seeing it, which is why they're getting punished at the ballot box everywhere. Like, these people have made kind of this devil's bargain that because God forbid they put themselves in a situation where they're on the receiving end of Trump's ire or a mean tweet they've decided

Alex Wagner (56:00)

to allow him to do, or a

Brian Tyler Cohen (56:02)

primary challenge, they've decided to allow him to do whatever he wants. But now that means they own this, and so they own what's happening in Iran. And they can pretend like they don't see the tweets, they can play that game that we've been seeing for the last decade until they're blue in the face. But, you know, at this point, everybody's got Twitter on their phone, right? Like, everybody gets push notifications. We are not so dumb and ignorant as to think that these people have no idea what's happening with Trump and that. That he is a completely separate entity from them. These Republicans in the House, these Republicans in the Senate own this just as much as Trump does. And so they own the consequences as well.

Alex Wagner (56:37)

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the huge question is how Democrats use this moment to really implicate for the next however many months it is until November. I'm like, six. I have no amount. Time is a dimension, but however long it takes, they, as you say, need to own this. This is not just the Mad King, but it's his pliant, like, court that has allowed this.

Brian Tyler Cohen (57:00)

Yeah, well, in a lot of these instances, the Republicans have the ability to vote on these standalone bills where they can undo what Trump is trying to do.

Alex Wagner (57:08)

Yes.

Brian Tyler Cohen (57:10)

The war authorization, for example. I know Fetterman voted against it. He was the only Democrat who voted against it, and Fetterman deserves criticism for that. But every Republican, except for Thomas Massie Also voted the other way. And so I think like, like the TSA bill, for example, when there was long lines at airports, Democrats put forward 11 bills to fund TSA in a clean standalone bill. The Republicans knew what Trump's position was. Again, they don't wanna be on the receiving end of a mean tweet, God forbid. And so they all voted against it. And so even in these opportunities where they can buck Trump and give themselves, buy themselves a little bit of goodwill to go to voters, even then, they don't have the balls or the spine to take the opportunities that they have right in front of them.

Alex Wagner (57:53)

Totally. I mean, it's so feckless, it's so fear based, and it's a betrayal of actually what the founders envisioned when they had the separation of powers. You keep mentioning Cuba in terms of Trump's portfolio of countries he'd like to see regime change in. Do you think that the whole humiliation of this, because it has been humiliation, no matter what Trump and his advisors say, makes him more cautious about invading Cuba? Or do you think the fact that he has been so clearly owned by this process, that his ego has been so bruised, makes him more likely to try and get a W up on the board in the form of, I don't know, changing the Cuban government to his own whims?

Brian Tyler Cohen (58:33)

I think it's probably the latter. I think if Trump has shown us anything, it's that he is always led by his ego. And if he feels like it's been bruised, he's gonna redouble his efforts to make sure that he can gain the upper hand. And I think, frankly, he's gonna view Cuba as an easier opponent than Iran. And I think that's correct. So he'll probably, you know, he probably will unless proxies enter into a conflict and, you know, God knows, God knows what can happen. But yeah, I mean, look, if, if, if the last. God, it feels like 10 years, but year and a half has shown us anything, it's that Trump will always be led by his ego. I mean, we just talked about the fact that this guy ran a whole ass campaign on not engaging in foreign adventurism, and that's exactly what he's doing. Even to the.

Alex Wagner (59:21)

He ran a whole ass campaign on it.

Brian Tyler Cohen (59:24)

So, like, you know, again, but I think he's doing it because, you know, his desire to build up his legacy and bolster his ego is just so strong. And so when it comes to Cuba, I think he's gonna feel bruised in the aftermath of the Iran situation. I think he's already hurt in the aftermath of the Iran situation, and he needs to figure out how to get back, how to get the upper hands back. And I think his next, the next shiny object in his sights is going to be Cuba.

Alex Wagner (59:53)

Lord, here's my silver lining. Here's my silver lining. This has all been great if you own a Rivian or an electric car, right? If you needed a better argument that maybe we shouldn't be chasing reserves of decaying phytoplankton from like, the Mesozoic era that created petroleum wells deep below the surface of the Earth, this is a great fucking argument that maybe you should be powering your cities and your car and your infrastructure by renewable resources. Truly, I had to give up my Rivian and the divorce. It was amicable. It also is too big of a car for me, but, man, I wish I had that car right now. Brian.

Brian Tyler Cohen (60:36)

Yeah, I can say that I drive an EV and I do it in California, which has been hit especially hard, has always been hit especially hard by high gas prices. I, I don't know what gas costs in Los Angeles right now, which is such a nice feeling. It's. I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I recognize my privilege in being able to say that, but I don't know what, what a gallon of gas costs in LA and it, and I want that for everyone. And frankly, you know, these EVs are getting more and more affordable, which is great. I'm, I'm for anything that will accelerate the transition from combustion engines to electric vehicles.

Alex Wagner (61:11)

I mean, if I'm the Chinese, I'm looking at all this stuff.

Brian Tyler Cohen (61:13)

Thank Trump for that.

Alex Wagner (61:14)

Idiots. You idiots. Trump, you just made the best, most compelling argument for us to get off this dirty, dangerous fuel. You're welcome. What an asshole. Just in closing, Brian. What an asshole.

Brian Tyler Cohen (61:27)

It seems like that's like an evergreen closing. What an asshole is the way I think we can close all of these.

Alex Wagner (61:33)

Never goes out of style. Just like you, my friend. It is such a joy and a pleasure and an honor to have you on the little podcast we call home. Brian Tyler Cohen, thank you for your time and your wisdom and giving us that highly desired E. Explicit rating on this podcast.

Brian Tyler Cohen (61:52)

Sorry about that, but I appreciate you taking the time.

Alex Wagner (61:55)

I would have given it to. It's not a family show. I mean, it is, but, you know, thanks, Brian. That is our show for this week. Please do not forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. And if you're not sick of hearing from me yet? Take a look at my substack how the hell with Alex Wagner. Last but not least, if you have been impacted directly by the Trump administration or its policies, please please send us an email or a one minute voice note@runawaycountryrooked.com, and we may be in touch to feature your story. A huge and sincere thanks to everyone who has written in already. Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkovski. Our producer is Emma Illich Frank. Production support from Megan Larson and Lacey Robinson. The show is mixed and edited by Charlotte Landis. Ben Hethcote is our video producer and Matt de Groat is our head of production. Audio support comes from Kyle Seglin. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. Katie Long is our executive producer of development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

Mohammad Aracheti (63:16)

It.