Loading summary
Transcript178 lines
- [00:01]
Alex Wagner
Runaway country is brought to you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. America has always been more of an argument than a destination, an ongoing debate about power, freedom, belonging, and who gets to define the country itself. As we approach America's 250th anniversary, it is worth remembering that the United States began as a rebellion against monarchy and divine rule. The Founders attempted something radical for its a secular constitution with no religious tests and a government accountable to the people. That framework created space for freedom of conscience to grow over time imperfectly, unevenly, but meaningfully. And now many of those very same questions are resurfacing. We're seeing increasing pressure around the boundaries between religion, government and public life, debates that affect schools, rights, representation, and who feels fully included in the American story. The Freedom From Religion foundation is working to protect the First Amendment because it protects every everyone's freedom of conscience. Visit FFRF US Alex or text my first name A L E X to 511-511 to learn more and join as America 250 approaches. This isn't just about commemorating the past. Go to FFRF US Alex or text my name Alex to 511-511- remember Alex to 511-511 today. Message and data rates may apply. Hey, it's your ceiling vent. So I'm dripping. Could be the rain, could be the upstairs bathroom. Yikes. You could hire the guy your neighbor recommended, but I'm pretty sure that's just his cousin. Do we know if he's licensed or does he just own a ladder?
- [01:40]
Sam Cedar
Listen to your home.
- [01:41]
Rob Bonta
Go with thumbtack.
- [01:42]
Sam Cedar
Upload a photo or voice note and
- [01:44]
J.D. Vance
we'll diagnose your project and match you
- [01:45]
Sam Cedar
with the right pro for the job.
- [01:47]
Alex Wagner
Thumbtack?
- [01:48]
Rob Bonta
We know homes hire the right pro today.
- [01:52]
Alex Wagner
You know what they say. Early bird gets the ultimate vacation home. Book early and save over $120 with VRBO because early gets you closer to the action, whether it's waves lapping at the shore or snoozing in a hammock that overlooks, well, whatever you want it to so you can all enjoy the payoff come summer with Verbo's early booking deals. Rise and shine. Average savings $141 select homes only Hi everyone. There is an emerging truism in these Trump years. How do you make a bad situation even worse? Throw JD Vance in the mix this week as President Trump tries to spin his apparent surrender to Iran and capitulation to economic reality as the beginning of a deal to end the war. The the administration is sending its most reliably smug and utterly shameless representative to do the hard work of pretending that this is all a good thing. In theory. The Vice President is making the rounds to promote a new book about his relationship with Catholicism. We'll have more on that in a second. But in practice, it's been a lot of defense on a supremely vague agreement that the President himself described.
- [03:04]
Sam Cedar
It's a very strong deal. Nobody knows what it is, but it's very strong and most people seem to be very happy.
- [03:11]
Alex Wagner
Okay, here's JD on CNN with Jake Tapper this week explaining how and why the Iran deal is a positive.
- [03:19]
J.D. Vance
If you think of, like the last 47 years of American relations with Iran, we have never had this level of direct or indirect coordination. We've never had this level of direct communication between the highest levels of their society and the highest levels of our political leadership. So something has fundamentally transformed. Can I say with 100% certainty that they're going to meet every obligation to this bargain? No, of course not.
- [03:43]
Alex Wagner
No, of course not. To some degree. Defending a page and a half memorandum that may in the end put $300 billion in Iran's pocket, give Iran control of the Strait of Hormuz, and possibly allow Iran to charge fees on every ship that crosses the waterway. For what? It's not clear. To be fair, selling that is an uphill climb for just about anybody. But it is a particularly steep challenge for JD Vance, who has a remarkable track record of screwing up almost everything. Remember Hungary.
- [04:15]
J.D. Vance
Viktor Orban has been the single most profound leader in Europe on the question of energy, security and independence. I've seen a guy who has ferociously advocated for the interests of Hungary. I'm here to help him in this, in this campaign cycle.
- [04:30]
Alex Wagner
That's the Vice President endorsing Hungary's authoritarian Prime Minister, Viktor Orban, at a campaign event back in April. One week later, Orban was voted out in a landslide. Then there's JD's relationship with the Catholic Church. Remember that Pope Francis died just hours after meeting the Vice President last year and the Vice President followed that up by insulting the deceased Pope in his new book. Meanwhile, Vance is in a very public feud with the current living head of the Church, Pope Leo, who Vance condescended to in truly remarkable fashion this April.
- [05:04]
J.D. Vance
I think it's very, very important for the Pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology.
- [05:10]
Alex Wagner
It's Almost as if J.D. vance has no aptitude for this sort of thing. As if his profound lack of humility and shocking lack of charm and non existent sense of humor aren't serving him well. If you need more examples of that, here he is at the Munich Security Conference in February of 2025 making what, I guess supposed to be a joke spoiler. Nobody laughed.
- [05:30]
J.D. Vance
Thank you, Mr. President, very much for your leadership, but also for the kind words about me personally. I knew exactly what I wanted to say. But then after the President said that I was so smart and that I didn't want to repeat our congresswoman who froze for 20 seconds over in Munich, now I'm tempted, sir, just to freeze for 20 seconds and just stare at the cameras and maybe they'll say nice things about me like they do about Congresswoman Cortez.
- [05:54]
Alex Wagner
On matters both big and small, Vice President J.D. vance has proven to be profoundly out of touch. And maybe all of this would be funny if he weren't, you know, the Vice President of the United States with ambitions to be the actual president come 2028. And while JD Vance has said a lot of very questionable things in front of cameras and at podiums and in his book, it may be what Vance is doing off camera that is the most damaging. JD Vance is not only a bad messenger, he is a bad act. And the way he's wielding the power of the federal government isn't painfully awkward, it's just painful. I'm Alex Wagner and this week on Runaway country, the other war that J.D. vance has been fighting, the war on blue states under the guise of fighting fraud. What exactly has the vice President been up to? Well, if Stephen Miller is a fan of it, then you know it can't be anything good.
- [06:50]
J.D. Vance
Because of the vice President's leadership, you are seeing the most muscular, robust, aggressive, dedicated, determined and speedy effort to shut down criminal fraud that has not only ever occurred in the history of this country, but in any developed nation.
- [07:04]
Alex Wagner
We are going to get into the vice President's public messaging on what may be the dumbest war in American history, as well as his less public actions in the Trump administration's battle against blue state America with Majority Report host Sam Seder. But first, what happens when the Vice President and his second generation doge dogs set their sights on your home turf? JD Vance has been helming the administration's anti fraud task force, which has conveniently found lots of alleged fraud in lots of conveniently blue states. But according to new reporting this week, it may really just be sweeping up legitimate businesses with the goal of scoring political points. I'm talking to California's Attorney General Rob Bonta about what he thinks of the Vice President's fraud crackdown, the administration's very specific interests in California and its leaders and what this all means for 2028. Here's our conversation. Mr. Attorney General, where do we even begin? So there's a lot of interest this week in the Vice President, who's out there selling both a book and an apparent deal to end the Iran war. But less discussed is what he is doing on a very real level to blue states in this country. There was a piece in the Washington Post that actually caught our eye, which, which is where I want to begin reporting that the Vice President's fraud task force, which is something he, I think, is shepherding through with Mehmet Oz. Dr. Oz, the fraud task force has started targeting legitimate businesses in your state, and they focus on a particular business in Los Angeles that's accredited and has zero complaints. It's a hospice. And the fraud task force effectively sort of shuts down this business. Can you talk to me a little bit about what is happening in California and what you've seen unfolding as the Vice President focuses on fraud in your state?
- [09:11]
Rob Bonta
Well, what's happened in California and what should be happening is appropriate, precise, committed, comprehensive, thorough enforcement of the law and rooting out of fraud. And that's what my team does. We've done it for years, We've done it for decades. We have some of the top outcomes when it comes to indictments and convictions and recoveries. We're top 10 across the country. It's hard work, it's detailed work. You have to be precise. You have to honor due process. You have to target the fraud specifically and not sweep in businesses that are acting appropriately and lawfully. And when you're focused on the work, your head is down, your sleeves are rolled up. That's what it should look like. Now, here's what shouldn't happen. And this is exactly what the Vice President and his fraud unit and Dr. Oz are doing, which is they're politicizing fraud. They're using it as a cudgel, as a weapon to attack their. Their enemies. They're going after blue states in a completely inappropriate, partisan way to suggest or even explicitly state that the states, the state leaders, the governors, the elected officials are in on the fraud or part of the fraud, and it's completely outrageous. And they are late to the party. They're welcome to the party to enforce fraud if they're gonna do it right, but not if they're gonna politicize it like they are. So we're interested in tackling fraud here in California, they're interested in politicizing fraud. And so what they're doing is they're sor flipping the script. They're saying you are guilty until you prove you're innocent. Completely inappropriate. And they're saying let's throw the baby out with the bathwater. And they're catching in the crossfire and making collateral damage. Good faith law abiding businesses that are providing a critical service. Let's talk about what hospice is. It's end of life care that's dignified and gives dignity in the last years of life for someone to have independence and be at home and be surrounded by loved ones. And they're stopping those legal non fraudulent businesses from practicing and providing care in their unquenchable thirst to own the Dems and get the libs. And it's completely inappropriate.
- [11:32]
Alex Wagner
I mean to be clear, your office has been in fact focused on fighting fraud and specifically in the hospice industry. But I mean you started this conversation by giving a sense that it takes a long time to actually find the businesses that are truly committing fraud and that if there have been any gains made in fighting fraud, it's the result of some real longstanding efforts to do so. But it sounds like the Vice President is sort of sweeping in and a trying to take credit for the fraud investigations that predate even this second Trump administration, but also getting so aggressive as to vacuum up businesses that are operating legitimately. Can you give me a sense of the scale, the number of businesses that appear to be legitimate that have been swept up in all of this?
- [12:19]
Rob Bonta
It's hard to tell. But what we're hearing from businesses and what you see in the important investigative journalism is that some of these businesses, it's tens, it's hundreds potentially, they're reaching out to CMS to say turn our funding back on. We're legitimate, we're not the bad guys. We're providing care. And they're getting told to pound sand or they're not getting a response, it's too slow. Some of them have to, as the article set forth, they have to shut their doors when they're providing appropriate care, lawful care, non fraudulent care. And so one is too many. You should not be turning off the funding for legitimate businesses. That should be a no brainer to be able to do that. And so you know, we've been doing this important work. You have to do it right. We recently and by the way, every state has what's called an Mfuku, a Medicaid fraud control unit, right. And ours is the division of Medicaid fraud and elder abuse, and ours is one of the highest performing in the entire nation. We deliver time and time again. Of course, they're also, you know, they're, as you say, taking credit for our work. They're also suggesting, despite the facts, because they're inconvenient for their political narrative, that California is the bad guys, that elected officials are in on the fraud. And it's just outrageous. We recently just did the biggest hospice fraud takedown in the history of California. My office did it. Soup to nuts. We did the investigation, we did the arrests, we're doing the prosecution. We have the whole case from beginning to end. And it's the biggest ever in the state of California. So their politicization of this space is very unfortunate. And good care is getting stopped.
- [14:08]
Alex Wagner
Well, yeah, I mean, there's the inherent cruelty of what they're doing to California's healthcare industry. You look, we're not talking about, you know, shoe repair shops that they're accusing of fraud. We're talking about hospice centers, which as you point out, are end of life care. And you look at that in combination with the, what is it, $1.3 billion in Medicaid funding that they froze for California. There's one part of it that's like obvious partisan targeting, but then there's just an inherent cruelty when you're talking about the health and welfare of innocent citizens who are just caught in this crossfire. What do you hear from the businesses? Are they freaking out? Are people freaking? I mean, this is just seems like this un, this nebulous threat that could come down and have profound consequences on the people that seek services. And also these businesses that are trying to do some of these are smaller hospices that don't have the same access to lawyers as big hospice. You know, these are just independent operators who, you know, in, in some cases are doing the right thing and trying to provide like empathy in a really critical time.
- [15:09]
Rob Bonta
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, some of them are small. They provide hands on care, you know, person to person. You know, I'll say love and compassion, sympathy, care at the end of life. Try to make it as painless as possible. And that's a beautiful and important thing to provide. And they are the victims and they shouldn't be. And it's because of the hard charging, clumsy, overly aggressive approach fueled by politicization of the. And look, fraud is. It exists. And whenever there is large amounts of money flowing as it flows in Medicaid and in Medicare, there will be bad actors who try to get access to ill gotten gains and profit from it. They are the perpetrators, the states and the public taxpayers are the victims. And we need to protect ourselves from the perpetrators. The bad guys are the criminals who are trying to take the money, not the government that's providing the support and the infrastructure. Definitely, definitely not the good actors who are providing the care. And so they have, instead of focusing on the perpetrators, they're getting the good guys, the care providers that are providing end of life care for those who need it. And so how you. We do need to protect and harden our systems from the ability to be defrauded. And so there's a moratorium that we have in California for any new licenses on hospice fraud. We've so far removed licenses, delicensed, the state of California, California has from 350 targeted hospice care providers that were not meeting the requirements and meeting the standards. That was specific, that was individualized, that was targeted in an appropriate way and those are the right things to be doing. But this overly broad effort to just say you're all fraudulent and maybe we'll listen to you if you want to come forward and suggest that you're not. This guilty until proven innocent approach is cruel and bad for healthcare and bad for human dignity.
- [17:13]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, that's the essence of it. Right. I think that shouldn't be lost in all of this. This is really truly about human dignity and the cruelty inherent in stealing that dignity from people as they're dying is beyond, I think, a partisan machination. Let me ask you, because first of all, you're in this fight against the Trump administration and you're in multiple fights, I should say multiple lawsuits against this administration. You're one of the leading sort of plaintiffs, if you will. Have you interfaced with the Vice President on this task force at all?
- [17:43]
Rob Bonta
I haven't personally interfaced with him. We've watched their conduct and their actions, including Dr. Oz doing a drive by in California for some direct to camera videos and trying to allege that California government and officials are in on the fraud and then leaving. We're here before the drive by, after the drive by, during the drive by, doing real work, digging into the fraud investigations, arrests, takedowns. The Vice President a couple weeks ago did have a convening, invited state attorneys general. We understand that he invited Republican state attorneys general with quite a bit of notice, maybe a week or two weeks or even more. They invited Democratic AGs with one business day before the meeting and we sent the head of our Medicaid fraud control unit and she was turned away.
- [18:41]
Alex Wagner
Wow.
- [18:42]
Rob Bonta
Wasn't allowed to participate in the meeting. So it was just gamesmanship. It was performative, it was theater. They didn't really want a conversation. They didn't really want engagement. They wanted to suggest that they invited us when it was really a hollow invitation. And then when we surprised them and accepted their invitation to engage, they turned our lead, a staff person away at the door. So that speaks volumes to us. That's what engagement with them looks like. It's all political. It's all theater. They don't want real good faith engagement.
- [19:11]
Alex Wagner
I mean, we talk about this, talking about partisanship and political theater. The week that the governor of the state has announced that the feds, the Department of Justice is looking into the actions of him and his wife. First of all, I mean, you know that California is enemy number one on this administration's list. What was your reaction to that announcement?
- [19:35]
Rob Bonta
Sadness, in part that it's gotten deteriorated to this level, but also, while shocking, not surprising. This is what this administration does. They've done it time and time again. They've turned the United States Department of Justice into a political weapon where they go after political enemies. They're engaged instead of engaged in good faith, objective criminal prosecutions where you apply the law and apply the facts. They are involved in political persecutions of their enemies, whether it be New York Attorney General Tish James or James Comey. Now it's Governor Newsom. It is only because they are his enemies that he has sicced the attack dog of the US DOJ on them. When there is no evidence of any crime, he's telling them to try to find crimes or manufacture crimes because they're his political enemies. And that's not how blind justice is supposed to work. You're supposed to just follow the facts and go faith to where they lead. If there's a violation of criminal law, then you objectively apply the criminal law to those facts. But that's not what he's doing. And I was disheartened but not surprised to see what he's doing to Governor Newsom and the first partner. And it was wrong with Tish James and Comey and others. It's wrong with Governor Newsom, but it is who he is. He is corrupt and the president is corrupt and he is on a vengeance tour going after his political enemies.
- [20:58]
Alex Wagner
Do you, I mean, you mentioned Tish James, New York AG you have, I mean, the California Department of Justice has launched, I think, is it 68 lawsuits against the Trump administration. Is that right? Is that number the right one?
- [21:08]
Rob Bonta
71. Now sorry. It goes, it goes up in real time. So 68 was, was absolutely accurate recently. But we, we.
- [21:16]
Alex Wagner
But it's Wednesday. But it's Wednesday. That was the number on Monday. Do you worry that makes you a target?
- [21:22]
Rob Bonta
I don't, but, you know, I don't worry, but it probably does make me a target. You know, we have 71 lawsuits in. Almost 70, so it's about once a week. Our position is if Trump violates the law and hurts our states, we'll sue him. If he doesn't violate the law, we won't sue him. It's pretty basic. We think it's completely unremarkable to take the position and not a lot to ask that the President of the United States follow the law and comply with the Constitution. And if he doesn't, we'll hold him accountable, hold his feet to the fire. So California was always a target from before Trump was elected to after he was elected and before he was inaugurated to after he was inaugurated to today, he's going to go after us. And he has. He's tried to take $200 billion from us. We've protected that money with our lawsuits. He's tried to strip birthright, citizenship and voting rights away from our people. He tried to unlawfully deploy the National Guard in our state, and we were able to push them out through our lawsuits. He imposed unlawful tariffs that raised the prices for Californians and Americans. We had those struck down as unlawful. We defended our Prop 50 lawful partisan redistricting, clapped back to Trump's efforts to create five new seats in Texas. We defended that at U.S. supreme Court. So we are not just suing, we're winning. And we're winning regularly 80% of the time. And if that makes me a target, so be it. But the people of my state deserve an AG who's fighting for them, who is holding this unlawful president who is so blatantly and brazenly, consistently and frequently unlawful, accountable. And we will continue. We got a full tank of gas and a ton of energy, and we're going to keep doing it.
- [22:57]
Alex Wagner
I feel like you should really just say your electric battery is charged since you're in California. Tank of gas, Come on. Now.
- [23:03]
Rob Bonta
It's at 100% my electric battery.
- [23:06]
Alex Wagner
You just had a primary this month. It takes a long time to count ballots in the state of California. We don't have to, we do not have to litigate that here. But Republicans have taken advantage of that window to claim fraud. Spencer Pratt, Donald Trump, others in the administration. You kind of could have seen this one coming a mile away because the Republican candidate in the days after went from being a viable runner up to not being in the general in November. And that has raised Republican hackles. And what do they do when they're upset about the outcome of an election? Often they cry, election fraud. How are you guys? Given the realities of, like, the way elections work in California and the inevitability of these cries of fraud, how are you preparing for November? And I would say 20, 28.
- [23:55]
Rob Bonta
Yeah, you know, first I'll say there's. Counting ballots is not fraud. We do have a desire for immediate gratification and. And I think everybody wants full, comprehensive, accurate, reliable voting information and election results as soon as possible. But it's important to do it right. And we have vote by mail ballots that come in late that are eligible to be counted. We have provisional ballots that need to be authenticated. We need to authenticate signatures and make sure that they match. So this is all important work. We have 58 registrars of voters throughout the state of California. We're the largest state in the nation with 40 million people. Nearly 40 million people. So we're counting ballots. And just because it takes some time doesn't mean it's fraud. Just because you don't get the outcome you want doesn't mean it's fraud. Louisiana is a deep blue city in a deep blue state. There was never a possibility that Spencer Pratt was gonna make the top two. It's completely unremarkable that he hasn't. It's exactly what you'd expect. The same is true of Trump losing three times, getting thrashed three times in the presidential election. In California, Steve Hilton, the Republican nominee, will get thrashed by the Democratic nominee, Javier Becerra. And we are a deep blue state. We reject this MAGA approach and Trumpism. So not a surprise there. But they're crying foul, saying that they're cheated. They have this red mirage. They think they're always on the precipice of turning deep blue California red and love them for their optimism and hope, but it's just not based in reality. We are very worried about interference from the Trump administration. I have said time and time again that if Trump wants free and fair elections that are reliable and accurate, the best thing he can do is nothing. Do not interfere, do not create harm, do not do what you did in Fulton county when you seized ballots, do not engage in these unlawful executive orders that seek to add new proof of citizenship requirements, or don't count certain vote by mail ballots, or try to create a citizenship list so that you can filter out certain ballots from the mail based on a list that the president has. Don't deploy the military or the Marines or ice at or near polling stations. That's against federal law. We think he might do all those things.
- [26:15]
Sam Cedar
Wow.
- [26:15]
Rob Bonta
And so we've been tabletopping and engaged in exercises. What our responses are, how we go to court, how we get immediate court orders to dispute, disperse military from polling stations to make sure that ballots are preserved and not taken away from the registrar of voters and not seized and tampered with. So we have to be prepared. We owe our people readiness, preparedness. This is more and more the biggest issue that my constituents raised with me in my office. Concern about the elections being free of interference from Donald Trump.
- [26:51]
Alex Wagner
Wow. Well, here's where we're at. I gotta say, though, your track record should give people confidence. 80% success rate. Californians must be tired of all that. Winning California.
- [27:04]
Rob Bonta
It's winning. It's exhausting.
- [27:05]
Alex Wagner
Exactly. You can reclaim that along with the term witch hunt. California Attorney General Rob Bonta. It's really great to have you on Runaway Country. Thanks for joining me and giving us a shot of hope as far as the road ahead. Great to have you.
- [27:20]
Rob Bonta
My great pleasure. Thanks for having me, Alex.
- [27:22]
Alex Wagner
After the break, we will put all of this into context with Majority Report host Sam Ceder. Runaway country is brought to you by ZBiotics pre alcohol. I'd love to tell you I am one of those women who can have three glasses of wine and still wake up glowing and ready for Pilates class, but I ain't somewhere in my late 20s, let's call it my early 30s. The morning after a few drinks started to hit different and that's why I started drinking Zbiotics Pre Alcohol Zebiotics. Pre Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it when you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It is a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you will feel your best tomorrow. I will say, every time I'm smart enough to bring my ZBiotics with me, I notice a difference the next day. Even if I go out, I can confidently plan on being a lucid mother, a lucid coworker and a semi lucid podcaster. Between weddings, wine, nights and the first real summer vacation of the year, June barely leaves a Saturday open. Don't I know it. Don't let a rough morning after cost is Sunday. Drink pre alcohol to stay ahead of it and make the most of every weekend this month. Remember to head to zbiotics.com Alex and use the code Alex at checkout for 15% off off runaway country is brought to you by bookshop.org would you be surprised to learn that we're living in a resurgence of independent bookstores? More than 1,000 new stores have opened in the last five years. As you know, independent bookstores do more than just sell books they take care of and pour back into their communities. They create safe spaces that foster culture and curiosity and a love of reading. When you purchase from bookshop.org, you are supporting more than 3,000 local independent bookstores so they can continue their essential work. I literally just ordered a book called Au Pair. It's supposed to be a great summer read. It sounds scary. I might be terrified, I don't know. But I just ordered it from bookshop.org and I'm very excited to start cracking at my summer beach read list, which is mostly scary books and books about unlikely romance. Use Code alex to get 10% off your next order@bookshop.org that is 10% off@bookshop.org with code Alex. Sam Ceder, what a pleasure it is to have you on the Runaway country in your very professional looking environs. Thank you for joining me to talk about our psychotic vice president.
- [30:00]
Sam Cedar
No, it's my pleasure. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for having me.
- [30:04]
Alex Wagner
So it's Vance Week, which, much like Infrastructure Week, hasn't been that. My humble opinion hasn't been that successful. I'll get your opinion. He is out on.
- [30:13]
Sam Cedar
But it did happen, which is different from infrastructure.
- [30:16]
Alex Wagner
That is actually true. Although wasn't infrastructure like much like time is a dimension. Infrastructure Week was a dimension where it's like constantly happening.
- [30:23]
Sam Cedar
Yes, exactly.
- [30:25]
Alex Wagner
The Biden years. Okay, so my question to you is this. He's out on spinning the deal. The Vice President is spinning the President's deal. Which of course no one has seen the page and a half memorandum of understanding and is on the airwaves talking about why nobody has seen the deal. This is the Vice President of the United States of America on CBS Mornings responding to Norah o' Donnell asking why the text of this deal has not been made public. Yet, yeah.
- [30:54]
J.D. Vance
So there are some frankly diplomatic protocols that I don't fully understand. The Qataris and the Pakistanis who have been helpful in mediating this agreement with the Iranians, they've asked us not to release the full text for a little while.
- [31:05]
Alex Wagner
It's the reason, Sam, that nobody's seen this MOU is because of the Pakistanis and the Qataris, that's why. Because you know how deferential this administration is to what the Gulf states wants.
- [31:18]
Sam Cedar
It's diplomatic things amongst very exotic countries that he can't possibly decipher. Who knows what these, you know, the Pakistan like look at the reason is
- [31:30]
Alex Wagner
that country, I mean where even is that country possibly?
- [31:33]
Sam Cedar
I mean the irony is, I think as he was saying this, this, the MOU was being leaked at that moment. And you know, it's interesting. I, they are at once terrified of. I mean the bottom line is the war is lost. We lost the war on their terms, on people who wanted to wage this war, we lost it. And there is a sort of a dual set of conflicting terrors. I think that the administration has. One is they can't get stuck in this. And, and I think like the timing of this with the, the Fed meeting, it's a signal to war saying you don't have to signal that we got to raise rates because we're going to bring inflation down, because energy costs are going to come down. And I think the, the other sort of terror they have is that people are going to realize they lost the war and that these terms, I mean, frankly, from my perspective, these are type of terms that we should have accepted 20 some odd years ago when the Iranians essentially went through the Swiss and said to George W. Bush in the wake of 9, 11, we'll help you, we'll help you find bin Laden, we'll do all of these things, provide a sanction relief and we will enter the world community. And the Bush administration, full of neocons and desperate to hold on to their axis of evil, ended up sanctioning the Swiss for bringing them that deal. So from my perspective, like this is actually, I think not a bad deal from the perspective of people who don't want to be continually waging war against Iran in some fashion or another. And, but from the perspective of all the people who wanted to go to war, it is a nightmare.
- [33:27]
Alex Wagner
Well, and this perspective of the 152 children who were killed and the 7,000 civilians who've been killed and the people all over Asia who've not been able to go to work five days a week because there's not enough energy. I mean, the chaos that this president unthinkingly spun the globe into for results that could have been had decades ago is just. But to the JD Vance of it all, the other part of this, in addition to just like throwing, I don't know, the Pakistanis who've been negotiating all of this with the administration because they haven't been talking to Moshtab Al Khamenei for sure. He says the reason you're seeing gas prices go down is because the strait's opening back up. And it's like, hey, no, you're seeing the markets respond and the companies respond, but be aware, dude, that the strait isn't going to be operating at full capacity for months. That, to me, I guess, does the. This is. I think I know how you're gonna answer this, but the. The ability to just manipulate the truth and to just be so factual.
- [34:30]
Sam Cedar
He's a liar. He's just a liar.
- [34:32]
Alex Wagner
It's unbelievable. He's quite talented at it. Cause it. He has a kind of. He doesn't have a kind of populist bent. I mean, it still comes across as quite slick, but he clearly has no compunction about lying through his teeth to the American public.
- [34:47]
Sam Cedar
No, there is absolutely. That's funny that you say that, because when I was thinking about coming on, talking about, like, his capacity to lie without any sort of, like, hesitation or. I mean, he doesn't get. He doesn't get thrown off by tough questions. He. Because he has the capacity, he is so shameless, he will lie right through it. It is fascinating. I mean, A, we were told the Strait of Hormuz was already open two weeks ago. Right. B, we were also told that they had. They were only like a week away from developing a nuclear weapon. Now, both those things are not true. There's a new narrative for all of this.
- [35:35]
J.D. Vance
This.
- [35:35]
Sam Cedar
The. The world has already, at least at a minimum, a billion. A billion point five less barrels of oil that have been circulated in the world. Now, I just read an interesting piece suggesting that China more or less saved the world economy by both manipulating their. Their need for oil and in releasing some of their stockpiles, which I think is sou. Sounds right to me. But this whole thing has been a complete, just waste of resources of like a moral abomination. You mentioned the killing of. Well, we've killed thousands of Iranian civilians. There are millions, perhaps, who are going to suffer from the vaporized oil essentially, that spread through Tehran or in the air in Tehran in the early bombing campaign. And so we'll see. I mean, who knows if this is even going to end up happening on Friday?
- [36:40]
Alex Wagner
Well, that's always we should timestamp this. We're recording this on Wednesday afternoon. Anything's possible. I mean, I think it's highly possible that they never even come to an agreement on uranium enrichment, that this is just all of this is just a band aid to get the president to have gas below $4 a gallon, but
- [37:00]
Sam Cedar
definitely of a wound that he created,
- [37:03]
Alex Wagner
a gaping wound that remains bleeding. That's such a gross I'm sorry, that I have to say that in the context of Trump with his unfortunately, no concealer can cover this up.
- [37:11]
Sam Cedar
SAM Exactly.
- [37:13]
Alex Wagner
VANCE so, Vance, you make such a great point, which is there are no tough questions for JD Vance when you will lie about anything and everything. And I think you saw that on display also this week when he's answering broader questions about the Trump agenda and its concern about American financial pain. Here he is on the View talking about the president's comments on inflation.
- [37:39]
J.D. Vance
And we've done some things and made some good progress on that point.
- [37:42]
Rob Bonta
He just said he loves the inflation.
- [37:44]
J.D. Vance
What he said, ANNA what he said is that he loves the fact that the inflation is going to come down when this war is over. That's what he said.
- [37:52]
Sam Cedar
That wasn't a terrestrial. You his interpreter, or are you his vice president?
- [37:58]
Alex Wagner
It's the laugh at the end.
- [37:59]
Sam Cedar
Yeah, exactly.
- [38:00]
Alex Wagner
It's the laugh at the end. What did you make of that?
- [38:02]
Sam Cedar
SAM Well, I mean, it's on, it's on video. We all saw Trump say I love the inflation.
- [38:09]
Alex Wagner
Now, he's but he meant he hates the inflation.
- [38:13]
Sam Cedar
SAM but deep down he hates it. But one, you could argue that just Trump is just not not capable of articulating what he means at various times because he's slowly sort of degrading his mental capacity. Degrading. I actually think what that was. And he said the same thing. He said a similar thing about the midterms. Like, I don't care about the midterms. I think Trump was trying to signal to the Iranians, I'm not phased by this inflation at all. In fact, I love it. And the irony is, I don't know if you saw that reporting by Jeremy Scahill at Dropside. The Iranians had brought in their top psychiatrists in the country to figure out how they should deal with Trump. And Trump's out there literally functioning like I have a 13 year old who is more sophisticated in their negotiations than Donald Trump is the idea that the Iranians are like, oh well, Trump said he loves inflation, so he must not be concerned about any of the stuff in I think that's what happened. And I think, you know, Vance, he just knows, like, look, I'm in front of a somewhat hostile audience. Nobody's going to check. These guys are not prepared to play the video of Trump. And so he just lies. He just, I mean he, he lies in over and over again and then just chuckles his. I mean, he does this really well and very often. I still think he's an incredibly unappealing person, but his capacity to lie is really, I think in many ways unmatched. He just does not get flustered when he has to just tell a very basic lie.
- [40:02]
Alex Wagner
More from Sam Cedar right after the break. Runaway country is brought to you by Miracle Made. Do you ever wake up sweaty, freezing or taste just uncomfortable? The temperature in your bedroom can make or break your sleep. That is why I switched to Miracle Made Sheets. They're inspired by NASA technology and they use silver infused temperature regulating fabric to help you sleep perfectly all night long. Thanks to their antibacterial silver technology, Miracle made sheets stay cleaner and fresher up to three times longer than regular sheets. That means fewer odors, fewer wash cycles and way less laundry. Plus they feel just as good, if not better than sheets you'd find at a five star hotel, but without that steep price tag. Smooth, breathable, ridiculously comfortable. Upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. Go to trymiracle.com Alex and try Miracle Made Sheets. Today you will save over 40% and when you use promo code Alex you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three piece towel set. They make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee there is no risk. That's trymiracle.com ally code Alex@ checkout thanks to Miracle Maid for sponsoring this episode. Runaway country is brought to you by Honeylove. I'm a bra snob. I like em to be comfortable but they also have to look good. And when I tried my first honeylove bra I was sold. They are legit comfortable especially if you like to work out and you hate sports bras. You want the lifting and the shaping and the support but you don't want it digging in and making weird weird back bulges or padding that looks like January Jones and Mad Men. And that is exactly where Honeylove stands out. Their bras are designed to provide that lift and structure using innovative bonding technology. Instead of uncomfortable underwire so you get that secure lifted feel without the poking, pinching or adjusting. The new crossover contour bra that I believe is the one I'm trying. It's the best selling wireless design with molded foam cups to create a smooth, natural shape. Or you can take those cups out and it's, it's especially helpful for mature breasts. I just said it. Mature breasts that may want a little extra structure and support. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off honeylove@honeylove.com Alex that is honeylove.com Alex after you check out they will ask where you heard about them. Please support runaway country and tell them Alex sent ya. Experience the new standard in comfort and support court with honey Love. What surprises me is like, okay, on some level, it's like you're the vice President for an increasingly mentally unfit president, right? So you're gonna have to do some obfuscation. You're gonna have to paper over some of this stuff in the broader in. I'm giving him the longest Runway possible here. Right. You're gonna have to make this okay in some ways, right? So lie allies are built into your posture as the Vice President of the United States. In a moment like this where the President is saying unfucking believably, I don't care about Americans financial situations, I love the inflation. Which by the way, I'm convinced he genuinely thinks he like, actually it wasn't some war. I mean, maybe it was war gaming with the Iranians. But I do think the only thing he cares about is his reputation. Like he doesn't particularly care about the pain of the American voter or the American citizen or American resident. He just wants to make sure it doesn't redound to his disadvantage. Setting that aside and setting aside the sort of excuse I will give J.D. vance for lying to the public, he will lie even on matters that are deeply ethical ones. And I think the best example of that is his relationship with the Catholic Church where he is so diametrically the values of this administration, the values of JD Vance are so clearly at odds with those of Pope Leo as head of the Catholic Church and J.D. vance. The reason he's doing all this press, Sam, is because he has a book coming out, the sequel to Hell Hillbilly Elegy, which is called Communion Finding My Way Back to Faith, which is all about his path to Catholicism. Norah o' Donnell asked JD Vance about his relationship to the church. Given the statements from the church and the statements from the vice president suggesting that the Pope doesn't know theology. This is what JD Vance had to say this morning. It has been a little bit more than a year since the election of Pope Leo, our first American pope. He's been highly critical of your administration. What have you learned from Pope Leo?
- [44:38]
J.D. Vance
Well, I think that Pope Leo is trying to balance a lot of competing factors. And for example, you say he's been critical of the administration, and he has been. He's also said, for example, that a nation is allowed to have secure borders.
- [44:51]
Sam Cedar
Borders.
- [44:51]
J.D. Vance
He said that newcomers to a nation have a duty to integrate. He's also encouraged the administration to treat migrants humanely. And I think that what Pope Leo is trying to do is encourage all of us, whether we're Republicans or Democrats, to strike the right balance between law enforcement and being charitable to others. We're trying to do that in the Trump administration. Sometimes we're not always going to agree with Pope Leo's criticisms. But what I take from the pope, Pope as a Christian and as a Catholic, is he's a very important moral voice. His goal, fundamentally, is to preach the gospel. And even if I don't agree with him, I try to listen, I try to understand, and I try to learn something from it.
- [45:30]
Alex Wagner
I mean, I call bullshit. Let's just say 50 people have died in detention since the Trump administration started their dragnets. We all know about the murders of Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Goode. There are thousands and thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of children whose families have been broken apart by these immigration dragnets. There are thousands of children in. There are parents whose children have been stolen from them, and there are people living in subhuman conditions in these detention centers. We interviewed the lawyer for one of them on Runaway Country a few weeks ago. And yet J.D. vance is out there saying even though he doesn't always agree with the Pope, he listens to him. Sam?
- [46:06]
Sam Cedar
Yeah, Well, I mean, I think, even, frankly, my sense is, based on what little I know about J.D. vance's Catholicism, is that his brand of Catholicism does not comport with that of the popes. And despite the fact that he was a rather, you know, like a latecomer to Catholicism. And I don't know for sure, but I have talked to some writers who suspect that he's somewhere around, like, Opus Day. And there is a big, honestly, there's a big Opus DEI contingency in this country.
- [46:45]
Alex Wagner
There is.
- [46:47]
Sam Cedar
And they tend to be in positions of power, and there's not many. We're talking like literally a handful of thousands in the, in the five figures opus day in the country. But some of them end up being Supreme Court justices, some of them end up being senators and economic advisors and whatnot. He, I just don't think he has any type of actual genuine moral compass. And I think his brand of Catholicism is really sort of like intertwined with all of the Peter Thiel notion. Not to get too in the weeds about this, but these are Straussians. These are people who believe, believe that they are anti democratic. Peter Thiel has been very explicit about this, that democracy is a problem. He had a problem with the women's right to vote because he felt that it would lead to socialism. He said in the run up to the 2025, 24 election that we're living in Weimar Germany and people are tired of democracy. I mean, he is, is. He is going around the country right now on a antichrist tour. I mean, this, this stuff all sounds nuts and it is, but, and, and, and Peter Thiel is relevant to J.D. vance insofar as that he is essentially created J.D. vance in a test tube. He provided him his first work out of law school. He provided him, him tens of millions of dollars to run as a senator in Ohio and then ended up delivering tens of millions of dollars more to the Trump campaign when he picked J.D. vance. And so this guy's worldview is, I think, is very, it's influenced by a lot of very, very strange people. And so, but yes, it's impossible to reconcile. We now a new report came out today. 780,000 children kicked off of food assistance. There's no, I'm sorry, you know, to maintain some semblance of religious piety and be part of an administration that is doing this simply for tax cuts for millionaires. It's just, I don't buy it.
- [49:23]
Alex Wagner
It's antithetical to the message of Christ, I'll say that much.
- [49:26]
Sam Cedar
It seems like I don't know that
- [49:27]
Alex Wagner
much about the message of Catholic pretty laughs. But it is, it's, it is. I feel confident in saying that you brought up the teal connection. And it's interesting because Vance is trying to sort of craft himself or cast himself as a populist. He's been in his book, he rails against conservative donors. He's kind of, you know, trying to get the, the backdraft of the hillbilly elegy story, but really he was created in a lab by Peter Thiel. He's the first, first tech venture capitalist to be in the White House. Do you Think, I mean, how much do you think that's, that's the stench of Silicon Valley follows him as he moves forward with greater ambitions to be president? Because I, I think we don't, I mean, we don't talk about it, I think enough. We talk much more about Trump's association. I mean, it's obviously public because he takes them on field trips to China and is constantly seen with his tech courtiers at his knee. But Vance truly is the original bro Lagarch. If he didn't make that much money, he's in that bro sphere in a much more authentic way than Trump is.
- [50:34]
Sam Cedar
Oh, totally. In fact, I'm convinced if you go back and look at the timing of when Elon Musk endorsed Trump, ostensibly it was because of Butler, but it really was, I think, centered around when he picked, when the reports came out that he was going to pick J.D. vance. I mean, I think that was a big project for all the tech people, sacked David Sacks and the crypto people. And no, I don't think that stench actually sticks on him nearly enough. And I think part of it, frankly was just like the way the media responded to hillbilly elegy. There is just a deep, deep defensiveness, I think, in a lot of the media that because a lot of them are situated on the coast, that we don't really know what's going on in the Midwest and in the flyover countries. And if we have someone who can translate for us, somebody who both went to Yale and then, but also ostensibly is from, you know, the, the Appalachian stock, then we're going to promote this guy and have really uncritically. And, and I think that whole idea, the, the, that, you know, the hillbilly elegy where didn't, you know, somehow his VC days did not follow him into office in any way way. And I think part of that was also like the, the Democratic Party over the, the course of the past 15, 20 years. Well, really it may be 40 years has been so tied in, in many respects to that money that it's harder to campaign against it.
- [52:35]
Alex Wagner
It's harder to police the bad behavior when you're part of the same circle.
- [52:38]
Sam Cedar
So I think the problems advance are going to have are more the stench from the Trump administration when I talk about 2020, because that's what this week is over. The past couple of weeks have been his sort of pre launch. He's going to start to really run after the midterms. But this is a way to set the table. And what I find really Fascinating about this is that he is being given the credit and the critique for this Iran deal. Like Trump today Wednesday said, well, if it works out, well, I'll take the credit. If it's a bust, I'll give it to JD this way, if it works out, I'm going to take the credit. If it doesn't work out, I'm blaming J.D. you better be careful, J.D. he's going to turn his plane around and get the hell out of here. Yeah, I like that idea. I think it's a good idea. But I mean I track a lot of this conservative media. Ben Shapiro, Kill Mead on Fox and Friends they were all saying this is J.D. vance and I suspect there's that concept of the humble brag. I think JD Vance is out there. This is his way of appealing to the anti war to the extent that,
- [53:52]
Alex Wagner
yeah, the American firsters.
- [53:53]
Sam Cedar
The American firsters and really in many respects the sort of the anti Israel elements of his base. And so he's going to try and get credit for this if it, if it actually happens. And I, I find that it's interesting he's decided where what lane he's going to run in. And, and I don't, and you know, ostensibly probably against Marco Rubio, who has been completely sidelined from this entire.
- [54:24]
Alex Wagner
The Secretary of State. Yes, the Secretary of State. I don't know. Oh, little Marco may be onto something. The New York Post is calling this deal a love bomb. You know, J.D. vance clearly thinks he has ground to make up with America first, as he was on Megyn Kelly's podcast trying to sort of align himself with her and Tucker's brand of isolationism. He's trying to woo them, but at the end of the day, I don't know. I think a lot of people are gonna be skeptical of this deal once the details are finally released. Insofar as there are details, I'm not convinced it's a W. And if you're Marco Rubio, maybe it's a good thing to be the Viceroy of Greenland in the end as opposed to the architect
- [55:02]
Sam Cedar
of this surrender to Iran, the Prefect of Cuba.
- [55:06]
Alex Wagner
Well, that's probably what he will end up being at some point.
- [55:10]
Sam Cedar
Here's the other thing. I don't think there is a constituency, an anti war constituency. I don't think he's gonna get rewarded. Even if he is considered responsible for ending the Iran war, which I imagine he's setting himself up for the option to herald that six, eight months or in the campaign, I'm the one who actually ended the Iran war. And he's setting the predicate. He's basically like, you know, tilling the ground right now. And I think he'll decide six to eight months from now do I want to take credit for the.
- [55:49]
Alex Wagner
That.
- [55:50]
Sam Cedar
And so he set himself up in that way, I think in a fairly good way. And the same thing with the Epstein files. There was a big piece in the New York Times this week which was an excerpt from a book from Haberman and Swan.
- [56:06]
Alex Wagner
I guess it was Regime Change.
- [56:08]
Sam Cedar
And reportedly they also have audio. And this is from the most secure location, theoretically, the Sit Room Room. Yes.
- [56:18]
Alex Wagner
The situation should really reassure all of us who are concerned about our national security apparatus.
- [56:22]
Sam Cedar
I mean, and you read that piece and it's quite clear that Vance, or yes, Vance ites are leaking. Were. Are the ones who are leaking a lot of that material. And he wants to be seen as the guy who also was like, I want to get the Epstein files out. I want to. I mean, he's very much aligned with Tucker Carlson, I think, in terms of politics. And it's unclear to me how much of a constituency Tucker Carlson has when it comes to voters. I mean, it might be good if you want to launch a podcast, to be able to. I mean, honestly, like, you know, there's, there's a difference between a popular podcaster on the right and how many people you're actually speaking to in the context of the voters. But maybe from a primary perspective, you know, aligning with Tucker Carlson could be fairly powerful. But it's quite clear, like, he is setting up his post Trump narrative. This is not a situation where, like, he's going to be saying, there's no daylight between me and Donald Trump. And also, I got to think less like there is a decent percentage that J.D. vance may very well be the incumbent in 2028.
- [57:48]
Alex Wagner
Oh, my God.
- [57:49]
Sam Cedar
Or that in the context of, you know, running for that primary, he, Trump just won't be in a position to refute the claims that, that, that J.D. vance makes. Like, I was the voice for peace in the administration. I was the Epstein whisperer, and I did my best, but I was the Vice President.
- [58:10]
Alex Wagner
You're totally. I completely agree with you that we've seen two kind of seminal pieces from Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan. One is the TikTok on how the US Was led to war, and that features JD Vance and Marco Rubio prominently as the voices of reason in the Sit Room. You can only assume that's leaks coming from J.D. vance's camp to preemptively rebut ideas that he betrayed his ethics of not wanting America to be involved in military adventurism. And then the other one is the background on the Epstein files and how the White House scrambled to contain the fallout. Again, with some choice sort of words of wisdom from J.D. vance. Again, a strategy to distance the Vice President from the worst actions of the president, while also not publicly having to do so, but laying the foundations for his inevitable space creation when he runs for president in 2028. I mean, we have talked at length here about his shamelessness, his opportunism, his, I would say, cowardice in being unable to stand up on any kind of principle. And yet, Sam, I feel like on some issues relating to nationalism and specifically white Christian nationalism, J.D. vance, like, if he has convictions on that stuff, I think they might run deeper than Trump's. Like, I think he is a true believer, ironically having an Indian wife and multiracial children. But I think he is a true believer in the sort of most toxic forms of blood and soil nationalism. And I think you have to look no further than his. The speech he gave at the Claremont Institute last summer, last July. And if you haven't listened to it, you should, because I think it's the closest we get to the real inner workings of JD Vance and which direction his. His moral compass points in. Here's a clip.
- [60:03]
J.D. Vance
If you think about it, identifying America just with agreeing with the principles, let's say, of the Declaration of Independence, that's a definition that is way over inclusive and under inclusive at the same time. I think the people whose ancestors fought in the Civil War have a hell of a lot more claim over America than the people who say they don't belong. Because America is not just an idea where a particular place with a particular people and a particular set of beliefs and way of life.
- [60:34]
Alex Wagner
I mean, I watch that. I mean, it's very hard for me. Like, I'm the child of an immigrant. My mother is Buddhist, my dad was Catholic. I went to Orthodox Jewish nursery school. Like, I'm like the upside down of that vision that J.D. vance is proposing, but I mean, so is his own family. Like, where does the Hindu religion fit into the particular set of beliefs? Where do Indian ethnic traditions fit into a particular way of life? Like, I know your people are from Kenya, Kentucky, but what about the other half of your family? What did you think about that? And do you think. I mean, I guess, am I overstating it when I say I think Vance's core convictions about white nationalism and the supremacy of white Christianity In American life, those convictions run deeper than maybe even Donald Trump's.
- [61:17]
Sam Cedar
Oh, I think without a doubt. And I remember that era where he went to the Claremont Institute. I mean, he was doing that speech. Speech, a variant of that speech for a while at that time. And I think that was like. I think this is a really good indication of who J.D. vance would be if he sees daylight. Like, if he like, you know, like, I think at that time they thought they were ascendant that there was going to be no slowing this role of, of ice. And Stephen Miller was, you know, know, feeling his full bravado. And Elon Musk is still in the fold or at least explicitly. And I think the, I mean, he's getting into real fascist, fascistic territory. And I, I think they, they got a little cut off at the pass. And you know, you see a much more reasonable, at least attempting sounding like, you know, when he was on the View.
- [62:19]
Alex Wagner
Sanitized immigration.
- [62:20]
Sam Cedar
Yeah, sanitized having to lie because the facts are the facts. You know, 75% of the people that ICE has rolled up have no criminal records. And, and, and if we were, if they were going after the worst of the worst, you would imagine we would have heard about one shootout. Like a. One like, honestly, like, totally. They, they travel with like three different cameramen at any given time. If there was any sort of like, like dangerous situation for ICE guys, we would, we would be fed that 24 7. And yet we don't see that. So I think that was a moment where a lot of like that Peter Thiel stuff, which I do believe he genuinely believes they were feeling like this is an opportunity for us. I mean, you know, this is a guy who has also praised Curtis Yarvin, who was Munch's monk, Monkbag, or I can't remember his. His handle, his blogger handle. But this is a guy who, aside from, you know, constantly taking acid and I don't know, reading Jared Tolkien books, has this vision of. In the same. And this is where Teal reportedly got some of his ideas too, that democracy is over. We need to have a. A king of sorts. And the whole idea is that there are people who are the elite will decide for the rest of us. And having a nation that is homogenous is. Is there strength and is the project. I mean, and so. And I think at that time he was really happy to get out in front there. And I think now he probably feels like my peeps know where I stand. And now I've got to start to sort of like tap stand back and
- [64:29]
Alex Wagner
stand by More of my conversation with Sam in just a minute. But first guys, Crooked Con 2026 is happening November 5th through 7th in Washington D.C. and it's gonna be even bigger than last year and I am excited to say I will be there. My train ticket is booked. That is a lie. It is not. But it will be. Soon. There will be more panels across bigger stages, candidate forums, live shows, interviews, organizing events, and tense but cathartic moments between prominent media figures who have yelled at each other on the Internet. Friends of the Pod subscribers get an exclusive discount on the all day event on November 7th. In addition to many other perks we cannot wait to tell you about, there are four events total. Go to crookedcon.com to get your tickets for each and any of them. We can't wait to see you there. Runaway country is brought to you by Common Power. You know that feeling when you're listening to your favorite political podcast, Runaway country and you hear a story that urges you to step up and be part of the solution? That feeling is the essence of Common Power. Whether it is accountability from our political leaders, the impacts of AI on the environment, or the fact that everything is so damn expensive, winning the House and Senate is essential to solving these issues. Since 2018, Common Power has been the organizing force for training and deploying volunteers to door knock for democrats in over 20 battleground states and over 50 races in this year alone. Their teams are driven by next generation leaders and we need your support to scale and fund their travel. If you're watching this or listening to this, you are probably well aware of how pivotal the midterm elections are. And no matter what state you're in, this is your opportunity to do more. For those of you who refuse to sit this moment out, you can donate to common power@commonpower.org Crooked and help Democrats take back power in Congress. On Deck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow, Gaps on Deck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trustpilot review, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes@ondeck.com depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Okay, if there is one thing when I when I look at that speech, I really do get shivers. It makes me very worried. But then I remember what it's like to actually see J.D. vance on the campaign trail. And I want to close out this part of our conversation.
- [67:06]
Sam Cedar
I know what it is.
- [67:07]
Alex Wagner
You know what to tell me.
- [67:08]
Sam Cedar
Is it at the. Is it the diner at the donut show?
- [67:10]
Alex Wagner
The donut shop? Oh, yeah, let's just play. I mean, it's for one more time, for old time's sake. Just a reminder of Mr. Populist, J.D. vance, when he comes into contact with an actual person or people. How cringe. That situation is. A reminder. A throwback to the campaign in 2024, when J.D. vance, as a candidate, goes to what is called an otr. It's an impromptu stop that is planned in advance by the campaign, where it is to showcase the candidate's skills as a normal, average guy in the world. This is what happened with J.D. vance when he tried to order some donuts. Yeah, I would get a couple dozen, sir.
- [67:51]
J.D. Vance
A couple dozen?
- [67:52]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [67:52]
Sam Cedar
Okay.
- [67:54]
Rob Bonta
Okay. Yeah.
- [67:56]
J.D. Vance
She doesn't want to be on film, guys, so just cut her out of anything.
- [67:59]
Rob Bonta
Appreciate that, man.
- [68:01]
J.D. Vance
I'm J.D.
- [68:01]
Sam Cedar
vance, American Vice President.
- [68:02]
J.D. Vance
Ken.
- [68:03]
Rob Bonta
Okay.
- [68:05]
Sam Cedar
How long are your kids?
- [68:07]
Rob Bonta
How do you hair?
- [68:08]
Alex Wagner
Since the beginning of July.
- [68:09]
Rob Bonta
Okay.
- [68:11]
Alex Wagner
Everything?
- [68:11]
J.D. Vance
Just everything?
- [68:12]
Sam Cedar
Yeah.
- [68:12]
J.D. Vance
I mean, a lot of glazed here, some sprinkle stuff, some of these cinnamon rolls.
- [68:16]
Alex Wagner
Okay. I mean, the best is like, I'm J.D. vance. I'm running for vice president.
- [68:20]
Sam Cedar
Okay, okay.
- [68:21]
Alex Wagner
And then. And then, then he can't even get the donut order. Sam.
- [68:25]
Sam Cedar
At one point he asked, like, how
- [68:27]
Alex Wagner
long this place been around?
- [68:28]
Sam Cedar
Yeah. How long this place and has no follow up to it. The answer could have been 15 minutes, two years.
- [68:35]
Alex Wagner
We just opened up 50 minutes, 100 years.
- [68:37]
Sam Cedar
We've been here for 50 years. And he's just like, yeah, okay, okay. Anyways, just so uncomfortable.
- [68:45]
Alex Wagner
This is what the we. But in your darkest moments, when you worry about this individual maybe taking the reins of our democracy, you just play that clip. It's a reminder that he has no aptitude for politics. He really just does, doesn't I?
- [68:59]
Sam Cedar
Absolutely agree. Like, I. I don't worry about him as a candidate unless he ascends to the presidency before the 2028 election. I mean, you know, it's. You know, if I was an act, you know, an actuarial, I could tell you exactly what the chances of that are, but I think it's greater than zero.
- [69:24]
Alex Wagner
Okay, well, we're gonna focus on the donut shop, Sam. I'm gonna hold out. I'm gonna pin my hopes to a glazed donut or whatever sprinkles. Sprinkles, sprinkles, glaze, whatever. And I want to close out by asking you about people who do have aptitude for this. Namely you. You have aptitude for political conversation and, shall I say, debate. For people who have missed the jubilee video you did in March of 2025. Yeah, babe, baby. It went mega viral, I think. How many is it? 7.5 million views on my last count. It's called 1 progressive versus 20 Trump supporters. These things are like, give me agita. Like I, I get like acid reflex watching them. But yours is very good. Let's just play a super cut of you doing yeoman's work.
- [70:11]
Sam Cedar
Oh, geez.
- [70:12]
Rob Bonta
In this forum in Trump's cabinet, there
- [70:14]
J.D. Vance
are people of color that Democrats present pretend don't exist. Like J.D. vance's wife. Wife.
- [70:19]
Rob Bonta
And there's J.D.
- [70:20]
Sam Cedar
vance's wife is not in the cabinet. Raising the man made. Raising temperatures by 1 to 2 degrees Celsius in the next 150 years isn't necessarily a detriment to society. Human beings. You don't think so?
- [70:30]
Rob Bonta
No.
- [70:30]
Alex Wagner
Human beings are very good at innovation.
- [70:31]
Sam Cedar
And we can build seawalls and we can create carbon. What kind of seawall are you gonna build for Miami? Are you allowed to fire them if you find out they're trans? If you need to. If you need to, then you should.
- [70:44]
Alex Wagner
If you need to, then you should.
- [70:45]
Sam Cedar
We have a disagreement. I don't believe people should be discriminated against.
- [70:49]
Alex Wagner
Like, what's the problem with xenophobic nationalism? Don't you think that's better for Americans in general?
- [70:54]
Sam Cedar
Like, xenophobic nationalism is better.
- [70:56]
Alex Wagner
We should have a coherent culture. Everyone should be a part of the same culture. We should have assimilation.
- [71:00]
Sam Cedar
Which do you get to choose what the culture is?
- [71:03]
Alex Wagner
We already have a dominant culture. What is the dominant culture? European and Christian values and identity.
- [71:09]
Sam Cedar
I think you're making my argument for me.
- [71:11]
Alex Wagner
I think she's making J.D. vance's argument for him.
- [71:15]
Sam Cedar
Side note, she became a sort of right wing talker for a while and then had to drop out of politics when it came out that she had an affair. She was a trad wife, but, well, slightly different tradition, I think.
- [71:34]
Alex Wagner
Maybe untrad wife. You're not allowed to do that in the trad wife world. World. Do you feel like you. Well, first of all, how did that feel? It's my nightmare. And do you feel like I. I am constantly asked, like, what do we do about the divide that exists? Like, how do you bridge it? Like, how do we get at the Things that separate us. And I wonder like what those forums make you feel about the sort of reckoning between our two Americans.
- [72:02]
Sam Cedar
I mean, I think there's like 35% of the country. There is no bridge to them. I just, I don't think there is a bridge. I think you can, if you reach the 5 or 10% who don't pay attention really to politics that much, I think it comes down to getting those people on board. And then I think there has to be a follow up with actually like real material. I wouldn't say radical, but maybe in the context of the way that things have worked, radical change in terms of legislation and the structure of our society. And then I think the worst tendencies of people are not expressed by sort of like that margin between 55 and 35 if they're, if their material lives are easier. And so, you know, I mean, I think ultimately that's what it comes down to. I mean, look, this country was in many respects built on racism and has never really gotten past the specter of racism. I mean, and now we're back to, you know, like where we were arguably 60 years ago when it comes to voting.
- [73:33]
Alex Wagner
I was going to say post Reconstruction era.
- [73:36]
Sam Cedar
Yes.
- [73:36]
Alex Wagner
I was going to say the late 1800s.
- [73:38]
Sam Cedar
I mean people, you know, Jim Crow and really the, you know, 19 teens in 20 when like, you know, the KKK was at 6% of the country were card carrying members of the KKK. They were going to, you know, they're, they were involved in this, the, the 150th celebration of the country's birthday. I mean this was. And so I think there's a certain percentage of people you just will not reach. And it's not just about race, but that's a big, big part of it. And so I don't worry about bridging the divide. I think from, as a political matter, it is reaching people who are really not that engaged and then providing enough material benefits when you're in power, I mean doing really two things. One is consolidate power. And when it comes to Democrats, it really ends up being sort of democratized things. Statehood for D.C. and Puerto Rico, voting rights.
- [74:53]
Alex Wagner
Abolish the filibuster.
- [74:55]
Sam Cedar
Abolish the filibuster. Any way you can democratize things you do so and Supreme Court reform for that matter. And then allowing that structure that you have worked on, on to facilitate, providing real material benefits for people and durable ones. Because when people's lives materially improve, when they're not feeling worried about whether their kids are going to have health care or food for that matter, or whether they're going to have a decent retirement. It, the, the, the racial prejudices and religious prejudices and just the idea, the need to other eyes.
- [75:44]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [75:44]
Sam Cedar
Diminishes. It's not going to diminish. There's always going to be, I think, like a portion of our society where that's not going to make a difference. I mean, you know, you have some very wealthy people who went to crash the, you know, Congress on January 6th. You don't, you're not going to reach everybody. But I think you can reach a solid majority of people with that material benefit. And, and you know, as a political matter, I think that's what we need to do as just simply a moral injustice matter too. But I think that's the way I don't, you know, bridging the divide. I think if people are materially well off, off, there'll be more politeness and, but I think there'll be a certain portion of people who will still harbor, you know, a parochialism and a resentment that we're not going to get past tldr.
- [76:45]
Alex Wagner
Give people health care, raise wages and you won't need as many jubilee videos out there in the world. Let's hope you did a great job, Sam. Thank you on that end. On this. Thank you for joining Runaway Country. It is a real treat to have you here. I hope you come back.
- [77:03]
Sam Cedar
I'm happy to. Thank you, Alex. It was a lot of fun.
- [77:06]
Alex Wagner
Thanks, Sam. That is our show for this week. Please don't forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. And if you're not sick of me yet, take a look at my substack, how the hell with Alex Wagner. Last but not least, if you have been impacted directly by the Trump administration or its policies, send us us an email or 1 minute voice note@runawaycountryokked.com and we may be in touch to feature your story. A huge thank you to everyone who has written in already. Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Ilona Minkovsky, Emma Ilech, Frank Haley Jones and Anisha Banerjee with help from Eric Schutte, Kenny Moffat and Charlotte Landis. Production support from Ben Hethcote, Katie Long, Adrienne Hill and Matt De Groat. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.