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A
All new drinks are now at McDonald's
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B
with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher
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A
and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with popping Boba.
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B
To crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam.
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A
Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six? All new drinks are here now at McDonald's.
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C
Refreshers contain caffeine.
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A
Hi, everyone. This week, Donald Trump got one step closer to stealing the next election. Or maybe two. On Tuesday night, the Senate confirmed a new head of national intelligence, former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Jay Clayton. On this vote, the yeas are 51,
- [00:48]
B
the nays are 47, and the nomination is confirmed.
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A
Clayton, who is also a former SEC chair, has an impressive resume, which is what made his performance at his confirmation hearing so utterly unimpressive. You might even call it pathetic. Here he is being questioned by Georgia Senator John Ossoff, who won the 2020 election. You know, I'm not. I'm not going to do this with you.
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C
This is a job interview. We have established that you have an obligation to pretty honest and forthright with the committee. Yes. You do have an obligation to be honest and forthright with the committee. Yes. Who won the 2020 election?
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A
Like I said, I'm not. I'm not going to get into that with you.
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C
But you do have an obligation to be honest and forthright with the committee. Is anything that I just said not honest or forthright? Yes. You're not being honest or forthright. Who won the 20 election?
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A
I think I've been asked the question,
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B
we can keep doing this.
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A
Now, with that embarrassing display of stoogery established for everyone to see, Jay Clayton will fill the role as Trump's top intelligence official several months before a critical election, the outcome of which could dramatically reshape the balance of power. Clayton is likely to be joined in Trump's election schemes by Todd Blanche as Attorney General at the Department of Justice. Though precise timeline of Blanche's confirmation is up in the air, as of this recording, we can very much confirm that Todd Blanch is a believer in Trump's election conspiracy theories. Do you have any evidence that the election was rigged? What can you tell us?
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D
Well, there's a ton of evidence that the election was rigged. That's not something the DOJ needs to. Needs to tell you about. There's been evidence about that for many, many years. What I can tell you is that we have multiple investigations going on in Arizona, in Georgia, in Fulton County, Georgia, and that's exactly what we're looking at.
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A
And if Donald Trump has been transparent about anything lately, it is his desire to screw around in this coming midterm election and probably beyond that, when he may or may not run for a
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E
third term in two and a half years, you may have a different president. May.
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A
Trump is desperate enough to manipulate the coming election that on Monday he demanded Congress delay its August recess with the idea that Senate Republicans can somehow find a way to pass his Save America Act.
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E
We will pass the Save America act through the Senate. Hopefully the Senate. Call your senators and put pressure on them. So we want voter photo ID and we want all voters showing proof of a thing called citizenship. Isn't that nice? Hopefully there will be no mail in ballots. Mail in ballots have proven to be a disaster.
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A
The Safeguard American Voter Eligibility, or Save America act, amounts to a nationwide crackdown on our elections. It mandates proof of citizenship with voter registration. It requires photo ID for voting in federal elections, and it largely ends mail in voting. And just in case anyone is still in the dark about why Trump wants the Save America act to pass so very badly, well, he's now saying the quiet part out loud.
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E
It'll guarantee the midterms. It'll guarantee the midterms. If you don't get it, big trouble.
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A
The problem here is that passing the SAVE act is mathematically impossible for a three seat Republican majority in the Senate unless you nuke the filibuster, which looks highly unlikely under leader John Thune. This is why Trump is also taking matters into his own hands by issuing an executive order restricting voting by mail and creating state citizenship lists to essentially prevent people from voting. So far, Trump's attempt to strong arm the states has been rejected by the lower courts. Which is why this week, the administration is trying to take this ridiculous attempt at election interference to the Supreme Court, where, well, who knows what happens? As transparent and ham handed and obviously unconstitutional as these efforts are, how worried should we all be about what happens in November?
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F
Alex?
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A
I'm Alex Wagner, and this week on Runaway Country. What exactly are we facing down in November and how prepared is everyone really to get a handle on Trump's latest efforts? And how damned he is or we are? I'm joined by the one and only Joy Reid, host of the Joy Reid show and my longtime pal @ms. Now, back when it was called MSNBC. But first, we are going right to the heart of the matter, to the state where Trump has focused his most intense and consistent efforts at election interference, starting way back in 2020 and continuing right up to today. The state of Georgia. I'm talking to Erin Haines, Atlanta native and editor at large at the 19th, author of the Amendment newsletter and the host of Crooked's newest show, Long Play. Their first episode is a deep dive into Georgia and what challenges lie ahead in the heart of the South. Here's our conversation. I am thrilled that I get to do some podcasting with the great Erin Haynes. Erin, welcome to Runaway Country.
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G
Listen, the feeling is mutual, my friend. Longtime listener, first time caller.
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F
Let's get this.
- [06:10]
G
Is that.
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A
Well, on this podcast, I feel like we've had conversations in meeting before.
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B
Oh, no, we have.
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G
We have done that. Yes.
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A
But this is. This is a special inauguration. I'm thrilled to get you here and your wealth of wisdom on the state of affairs down south. But also congratulations on the long play or long play. Not the long play. Right. Just long play.
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G
Long play.
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A
Yeah, like lp. Because, you guys, I gotta say, as a former circus. What is it? Ringmaster.
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B
Ringmaster.
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A
Yes, I am. I could not be more thrilled to see the work continuing even better with a new crew. And like in these times, we are in desperation for this content.
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G
Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much. And right. This is needed. Like this conversation is needed. And I feel like people want to. To have this conversation.
- [06:57]
A
Yeah, people need to understand what's happening practically. I mean, it's something we try and do on Runaway country by having people who are in, you know, the trenches on the front lines. But to bring it to life so beautifully, visually, as you guys do, it's awesome to have a part of the Crooked media universe. And if people have not yet checked it out, they absolutely should. It's gorgeous and it's really substantive. I learned. I really learned something in episode one.
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G
Well, that was the point. So I'm glad.
- [07:23]
A
Yeah. Well, so let's start there because, I mean, Georgia has been ground zero for Trump's focus on election interference, his voter intimidation efforts, his fear mongering. And I just kind of wonder, big picture, what is that attention and what has that negative attention and stoking of fear animus done to voters on the ground in Georgia?
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G
Yeah, well, I mean, look, Georgia has come into the spotlight in recent years, I'd say over the past decade. Right. Obviously, you had folks like Stacey Abrams, who ran twice to try to become the first black woman in the country to become governor of a state. She was unsuccessful in that. But what she was able to do in terms of, like, expanding the electorate in Georgia, building this kind of multiracial, intergenerational, cross regional Coalition that paves the way for, you know, historic elections in 2020. Right. You have Democrats for the first time in a generation winning the state. President Joe Biden takes office, as well as Senator Raphael Warnock and Senator John Ossoff. So, you know, you don't have that without some of the gains that have been made. But also the day after those two senators get elected, you have an insurrection.
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A
Oh, yeah, well, I was there, you know, I know Jen Palmieri, your co host in the show, was visiting with her on January. Yes, I was in Georgia on January 5, 2021, and the next day was the January 6 insurrection. And people think of that as a coincidence, but I actually think it's their twin. You should always think about the, the insurrection on the Capitol in the context of a black man and a Jewish man being elected from the south, because it's like the changing America. A multi racial, multi religious, multi ethnic, inclusive, you know, slate of candidates and winners.
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G
Yes.
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A
And then the rejection of that and the desire to rewind America, basically.
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G
Absolutely. I mean, look, the gains in Georgia were absolutely part of the backlash that was fueling, you know, this whole big lie that, you know, climaxes in people storming the Capitol on January 6, 2021. So, you know, here we are six years later, and you still have the president now back in office, talking about voter fraud, talking about Georgia being part of this rigged election scheme that happened in 2020, and still trying to find proof of that somehow, despite the fact that, like, over and over and over and over again in my home state, that had been rebuked, that had been negated, that had been disproven. And yet, you know, here still are. Georgia, obviously still very much on his mind and very much in his focus, headed into not just the midterms, but even beyond that. So, yeah, Georgia continues to be kind of the center of the political universe. But I love that because that makes for very, very interesting times.
- [10:13]
A
Yeah, I mean, so one of the conversations that I thought was super interesting in episode one is between Jen Palmieri, who is our friend, my former colleague, your current colleague, she's talking to Senator Jon Ossoff and he has a take on what all this fear mongering around the election is doing to this sort of broader psyche down south. And I want to play that clip because it's clearly a moment of peril, but it's also a moment, it sounds like, of opportunity. So let's listen to that.
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C
We have to build the most massive grassroots, get out the vote effort in Georgia history because we Also expect some of the most determined attacks on voting rights in modern American history. Right. Fulton County, Georgia, where the President of the United States sent Director of National Intelligence to oversee a ballot raid here in Georgia.
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A
That's something that I think people are
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B
really worried about when they see what's happening with Fulton County.
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C
It should worry people. But I think the thing that they don't understand in the White House is that because of our civil rights history in the south, their attacks on voting rights, they don't deter or intimidate people from voting. They galvanize a defiant determination to vote.
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A
That's the sense that I got back, you know, when the most egregious efforts at voter suppression were happening in Georgia under the leadership of Governor Kemp.
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G
Yeah.
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A
Is that. Do you. Is that the sense that you get that people are, like, as angry as they may be, it also pushes them
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G
to the polls, oh, 1,000%. I mean, look, I've spent most of my career covering voting rights, covering what 21st century voter suppression looks like, and I did a lot of that from Georgia. I covered the Georgia legislature when they were pushing, like, these onerous voter ID laws. Even in the early 2000s, I covered Governor Brian Kemp when he was trying to pass voter ID laws and purging people from the roles of Secretary of State. Right. When Stacey Abrams was running for governor. So, I mean, there is a history of this. And now what you see with the fall of the Voting Rights act and states across the south moving swiftly to try to gerrymander and disenfranchise black voters. Yes, there is, absolutely. That is what 21st century voter suppression looks like. There is this kind of chilling effect. Is my vote going to count? Am I going to be able to participate equally in this democracy? But then on the other side of that, there is an absolute determination where people are saying, oh, you're trying to take my vote away from me. Oh, well, it's that much more important for me to make sure that I'm participating in this democracy. And so you do see. I mean, you saw a record turnout in the middle of a pandemic in 2020 that flipped Georgia blue that year. These are people that were saying, I refuse to be disenfranchised. I will make my voice heard. And that's exactly. I mean, especially among black voters. Like, that message received when they see people trying to attack their ability to participate fully in this country and in our democracy.
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A
I got the sense that there was, like, a little bit of, back in the day, a little bit more of a generational split on this. Like older black Georgians who had been through the civil rights era understood the sacrifices that were made. And like all youth, there were younger people who were not as keyed into that and didn't feel as their vote that their vote was as explicitly threatened as it had been. And now, well, shit, it's real clear that Donald Trump wants to take away or invalidate everyone's votes from if they're a person of color.
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G
Yes, that's exactly it, Alex. I mean, the further and further we got away from the civil rights movement. Right. I think there was a generation that was starting to kind of take for granted, if you could even do that. People like Congressman John Lewis, who represented Atlanta and Fulton county in Georgia when he was alive. People like Ambassador Andrew Young, who was a lieutenant of Martin Luther King Jr. Who was with him in Selma. So you have people like that who I grew up getting to see and touch and hear from and really made real and tangible, like the importance of voting. The further and further away you get from that generation, you would have younger people who for whom that message didn't necessarily land the same. It didn't resonate the same. You know, people died. You know, bled and died for your right to vote. So you have to get out. You have to exercise this. But now that you have a new generation of black Americans who literally, I mean, the generation of folks who, you know, live long enough to live under Jim Crow and to see the Voting Rights act of 1965 come to pass, that those folks, number one, are now seeing a time that they didn't think they were going to be back there. They didn't think that they could be in a place where their right to vote could be threatened. And now this new generation is seeing that their right to vote is being that they could have fewer rights than their parents or grandparents may have had, that is something that absolutely hits for them in a different way because they're living it. It's not something that they're having to hear about or learn about in a history book.
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A
Yeah, it's not history. It's lived reality.
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H
Right.
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A
More of my conversation with Erin in just a moment. Runaway country with Alex Wagner is brought to you by Wild Alaskan Company. You know, sometimes you get that fish that looks so pretty in the case, and then you get home and it's just mealy. Mm. Wild Alaskan Company offers the best way to get wild caught. High quality seafood delivered to your door on your schedule. Each Wild Alaskan box comes with individually portioned filets that are vacuum sealed, which makes them easy to prep and great for any meal, no matter how elevated or how quick. All the fish is quick frozen fresh from Alaskan waters, which helps lock in its freshness, texture, flavor and key nutrients. Like Those all important Omega 3s, every order supports sustainable harvesting practices. An Alaskan fisherman whose history is tied to the region and the practice I have been because it's summertime, marinating my fish overnight. Yeah prep. Especially the salmon, which is a nice fish to grill. We do a little teriyaki on that, grill it in the backyard. Boy oh boy, it is the summer dream. Wild Alaskan company is so confident that their fish is the best that they offer a 100% satisfaction and money back guarantee. So you can try that first box risk free. Go to wildalaskin.com Alex for 35 bucks off your first order of Premium Wild Caught Seafood that is wildalaskan.com Alex for 35 Bucks off your first order. Thank you to Wild Alaskan and for sponsoring this episode Runaway country is brought to you by ActBlue. If you have been listening to this here podcast, you already know the stakes. ActBlue is the platform that's been powering Democratic campaigns for over two decades, giving candidates up and down the ballot the tools they need to fundraise, organize, build websites and win. And this year, they've launched an organizing platform built specifically for the people doing the work. ActBlue field tools taking back the House and winning local elections across the country does not start in October. No, no, it happens now in the doors knocked and phone calls made by volunteers this summer. That energy is out there people. And Act Bluefield Tools is built to mobilize it at scale. It has already helped more than 350,000 volunteers get to work across all 50 states handling texting, phone banking and canvassing so your team can focus on what actually moves voters, meaningful conversations with real people. Plus, all of the features work together in one platform, making it easier than ever to mobilize your community wherever you are. Actbloon never sells your data or personal information so you can stay focused on what matters the most. Donating, organizing and helping Democrats win this November. The elections could come down to just a few hundred votes. The work that wins those races starts right now, this summer. And it starts with you. Get started@actblue.com backslash crooked
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H
I wonder if
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A
you think that that phenomenon of, you know, these voter suppression efforts, the election interference efforts that have been telegraph by the president, whether that stuff galvanizing a new generation of voters is A lesson learned primarily in the south in states with histories of sort of civil rights movements and battles against battles for civil rights or whether it's applicable. And I'm asking you to put on your, like, journalist hat more broadly. But, like, is that, do you think it'll have the same net effect in a state like Arizona or Michigan? Like, the more Trump, you know, explicitly says, I'm here to fuck up the vote in 2026 and 2028. Do people react even? Does it actually further energize people in the coming elections and have the opposite of his intended effect?
- [18:55]
G
Well, you know, I think what I would say is that it should. Right. I mean, W.E.B. du Bois said, as goes the south, so goes the country. Like, wait until states like an Arizona, states like a Michigan, states like, you know, Massachusetts are treated like the south, where people's one voice, one vote is not real. For people outside of the South. Like, too, too many times in the history of our country, other regions, other states outside of the south have been able to point at us and say, oh, well, that happens down there. That doesn't happen to us, or that's not something that affects us. Well, I mean, if people in the south are able to be gerrymandered or able to be disenfranchised, that weakens representation for everybody. Right? So, like, you're thinking you're in California, you're wherever, you're in a Democratic state that's outside of the south, you're thinking you're voting for the people that you want. But. But you're not going to. There's not going to be a Democratic majority. Right. If black people, who we know are the base of the Democratic Party, and we know most of them live in the south, if those people are disenfranchised, if they're not able to vote for their candidate of choice, that will affect people who live in states outside of the South.
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A
Yeah. And I think the fact that the DNC has just announced that South Carolina is the first primary state in the presidential election is a big deal on a number of levels.
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G
We can't say enough about South Carolina now being the first in the nation state to go in the Democratic presidential primary. I mean, the attention that, that focuses on not only South Carolina, but on black voters in particular, to be able to set the pace for the 2028 Democratic presidential, you know, the road to
- [20:33]
A
that nomination by having, you know, black voters set the table for those, the 2028 presidential, you immediately elevate voter suppression. You immediately elevate J gerrymandering, the end. The Supreme Court, the end of the Voting Rights Act. And that's a boon not just to Democrats, but to communities of color in Wayne county or Maricopa County. You know, when I talk about other states, there are plenty of brown people across the country that Trump is trying to target, both in policy and in rhetoric, whether it's election interference or immigration or the economy. The economy. And we're making, you know, the party's making a decisive move to say, okay, we're starting with the base of our party, voters of color, black folks. And those concerns are gonna necessarily, I think, dictate a of the conversation heading into 2028, which gets. You know, one of the things I. I'm fascinated by in the south is the Republican. Like, they feel so entitled to Georgia.
- [21:31]
G
Yeah.
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A
They feel like it's theirs. Right. And the idea that there's a robust black middle class is an anathema to maga. And everything Trump has told you people of color in this country are about and the existence of white liberals in the south is like, confusing and flummoxing to, I think, Republicans on whole.
- [21:52]
G
Yeah.
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A
Why do you think. I mean, first of all, why do you think the GOP is so enraged by the notion of a purple. Of Georgia being purple or fuchsia or whatever color periwinkle we're calling it? And just how in trouble are they in the coming years, not just in terms of swing state, but just maybe turning it blue?
- [22:13]
G
Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's enraging because of. Of what that represents. I mean, just to your point, you've got. I mean, Georgia has one of the highest populations of black people in the south, in the country. So, you know, what does it mean for those voters? What does it mean for and for us to rethink? You know, close your eyes and think about what you think about when you think about a rural voter. Right. Most people are not thinking about a black or brown person, but those people are also rural voters and so forth. Those folks to be exercising their power. Right. Especially when you have statewide elections. It's different when you've got folks in gerrymandered districts in the south who feel like, oh, it doesn't matter who I vote for. This is already rigged. I don't have a say. No. When it's statewide and everybody gets a vote. And these folks can be consequential in an election like that. Absolutely matters. So I think that is the thing, Right. That they have to reckon with. They have to deal with these Voters in a way that they are not used to and don't normally want to.
- [23:14]
A
I wonder if you think there's any peril peril in a changing like election landscape because it would seem like, okay, Republicans folly is Democrats gain. But I was struck by, I mean, I'm usually struck by things she said, but Marjorie Taylor Greene, former congresswoman, current election conspiracy Current conspiracy theorist, if not election conspiracy theorist. Former election conspiracy theorist. I'm struck by her assertion that like everyone, Georgia voters and people maybe, maybe more broadly in the south think everybody sucks and there's a risk that they stay home. This is from the first episode of Long Play. Let's, let's take a listen.
- [23:57]
F
There is a huge pullback. People that came out and voted for Donald Trump, they feel betrayed. Then at the same time, though, here's the problem. The Democrats, they never change their policies that they lost on. And so disaffected MAGA or MAHA. Republican voters from 2024 don't have a party to turn to. Most Americans, I talk to Democrats and Republicans, they're like, I hate both parties. Both parties have failed us. Why vote for any of them?
- [24:28]
B
Well, because you have to vote for somebody.
- [24:29]
F
So new leader, you don't have to vote for anybody. I don't buy into the lesser evil, vote for the lesser evil kind of thing. I go into a restaurant and there's nothing good on the menu. I don't want to pick the least of the bad. I don't want to eat there at all.
- [24:43]
A
But sometimes you're hungry enough that you'll
- [24:45]
G
eat whatever I was going to say. But you also don't want to starve. And this is the place where democracy is the restaurant where you got to eat, so you got to order something, right? I mean, maybe you wish that there were other choices. But you know, and I say this all the time too, like you've got but in recent years, and I would say on both sides, right, Because I mean, Barack Obama, very charismatic person, hope and change really just really seduced a lot of people, frankly. They were very excited to vote for this candidate. And now you've had now for the second time, so many people that are just enamored with Donald Trump. Voters are not used to, I'm old enough to remember voters not necessarily being excited about the person that they were voting for that they didn't necessarily they were not in love with that person. But now that seems to be an expectation. And that's just not voting is a privilege. It is also a responsibility. We don't always Love the responsibilities that we have to do. But as Americans, this is the privilege and the responsibility that we have. But it is interesting and you do have a lot of folks who have come to the conclusion that Marjorie Taylor Greene kind of talks about. But I don't want folks to confuse that with apathy. Right. Because so many times we think, oh, well, those voters are just apathetic or, you know, they're disaffected. Yes. But do they care about their country? Are they absolutely still civically engaged? I believe, yes. So I think the way forward, and we talk to folks about this too. I talked to Latasha Brown from Black Voters Matter, who, you know, her appeal to voters is always about their power. It's not about any particular candidate or any particular cycle. It is about the power that they have to use their voice to see the change that they want to happen in their communities and in their country.
- [26:38]
A
Well, and I think that's where the intersection of that reality and that strategy that meets Trump's fear mongering and election suppression. Right. Like you see, it is a direct assault on voters power. And if you need a reminder of both your responsibility and the, the right that you have as an American to vote, look no further than the President who's trying to take it away. So, like, it's actually incredibly convenient for the president to be doing this shit if morally bankrupt, because it's a reminder that you may not like everything that's on the menu, but like, you gotta eat, gotta eat. And like without eating, you starve.
- [27:17]
G
Yes.
- [27:18]
A
Well, Aaron, like I said, I mean, I just, I'm in such wonder at like what you're doing. I think it's such a service for all of us, especially as we try and make sense of like, how it actually, what it means to be on the ground and in the, you know, in the battle for our democracy to understand how it's playing out and what people are feeling. Do people think John Ossoff is going to be the next president?
- [27:39]
G
Listen, I mean, he's definitely in the conversation, Right. And I would say that both of these senators have been in the conversation. Ossoff definitely, because he's been so outspoken. Right. He's taken on the president and he's tying the president, you know what he says, it's pointing out the corruption of the administration to why you are paying more for every single thing in your life. That is a message that is resonating with a lot of people right now. And then you add on top of that that he is pushing back against the president's continued attacks on the integrity of elections in Georgia. Him continuing to just say, no, that did not happen here. And you don't get to say that. And if anybody is guilty of election interference, is you. Like that is also something that his supporters certainly are open to. And who knows, you know, in terms of those folks who may be, you know, independent or undecided, if he is somebody who feels like, you know, they feel like speaks for them, they could be open to that candidacy as well.
- [28:45]
A
So all roads back lead back to every time. Every time.
- [28:49]
G
Just like you got to fly through Atlanta to get wherever you're going. You gotta go through Georgia to win the election.
- [28:55]
A
Gotta go down south. Aaron Haynes, you are the best. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for enlightening us. The new show is long play. It's on YouTube. It's on Crooked. I'm so happy to have you in the fam. It's great to see you.
- [29:08]
G
Right back at you, friend. Thanks so much.
- [29:10]
A
After the break, we will put all of this into context with the wonderful, inimitable Joy Reid. Today's show is sponsored by Strawberry Me. We all know someone who is not exactly in their dream career. Honestly, sometimes I look around at people and I think, how did they get there and what am I missing? It happens daily. Here's what nobody really tells you. The most successful people rarely figure it out alone. They have mentors, they have coaches. They have people in their corner who help them think through the big decisions and see what they can't see themselves. That is exactly what today's sponsor, Strawberry Me, is all about. It's like therapy for your career. I was skeptical, I'm going to admit it, about career coaching at first, but having someone who focuses on your situation and asks the right questions and helps cut through all the noise that turned out to be incredibly valuable. It starts with getting clear on what you actually want, not what everyone else expects you to want. Then you uncover the blind spots and obstacles that are keeping you stuck. And finally, you build an actual plan. Instead of waiting for the perfect opportunity to magically appear. Whether you are trying to land a new job, earn a promotion, or complete completely reinvent your career, Strawberry Me gives you a roadmap and a dedicated coach who is with you every step of the way. Scan the QR code on your screen or head to Strawberry Me. Alex to get 50% off your first session. That is strawberry me. Alex. Strawberry Me is like therapy for your career. Runaway country is brought to you by miracle made. Do you ever wake up sweaty or freezing or just uncomfortable and not just cause the cat is sleeping on your head. You know what I'm saying? The temperature in your bedroom can make or break your sleep and that is why I switched to Miracle made sheets. They are inspired by NASA technology and they use silver infused temperature regulating fabric to help you sleep perfectly all night long. Now if you're a hot sleeper or a cold sleeper it doesn't matter because the sheets help keep you in the comfort zone the whole night through and they feel just as good if not better than sheets you might find at a five star hotel but without the steep price tag. Smooth, breathable, ridiculously comfortable. So upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. What a gift. Go to trymiracle.com Alex to try Miracle made sheets today you will save over 40% off and when you use promo code Alex you will get an extra 20% off plus a free three piece towel set. They make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee there's no risk. That's trymiracle.com Alex Code A L E X at checkout. Thanks to Miracle made for sponsoring this episode. There are just few people when you see them on the schedule that your day gets better. And when I see Joy Reid on the schedule I'm like, all right, this is already a good day. Doesn't even matter what Trump does cause I got Joy with me in the cockpit. Thank you for joining me on Runaway Country Buddy Sister.
- [32:08]
B
Alex, it's always such a pleasure. The only thing missing from this are cocktails. I know it's early in the day,
- [32:14]
A
but never too early.
- [32:15]
B
It's a bad time in these times.
- [32:18]
A
Okay, well let's talk about the bad times. I want to refresh everybody. It's amazing that like a week ago feels like a year ago, a month ago feels like a decade ago. But earlier this month Trump Cave gave like a nothing burger of a prime time address to talk about election interference. I want to just refresh everybody's memory on that because it sets the stage for what else we're going to be talking about here. Let's play Cliff.
- [32:42]
E
Disturbingly, this vital information has for many years been covered up and hidden from you. The American people are beautiful. Our great American people. But that all changes right now. You can see these documents for yourself@WhiteHouse.gov that's WhiteHouse.gov go check it out. Our purpose in disclosing this information is not to weaken confidence in elections, but to earn that confidence by confronting vulnerabilities and correcting them. Very, very quickly. And that's what we're doing.
- [33:19]
A
That was all a retread. Ultimately, if you'd been one of the foolish, misguided people who gone to whitehouse.gov to find out what explosive material the Trump White House had to offer you, it was retreads of intelligence information we already knew, some of which confirmed that there was, there was no election interference in the 2020 election. But nonetheless, I don't know, Joy. I was kind of hoping that was the end of it. Like, okay, we're good, we're done with this. And then we got Trump's nominees for odni, the Office of Director of National Intelligence, and the Attorney General, both of whom are going to get confirmed this week or very close to getting confirmed this week. People who are unable to say that Joe Biden won the 2020 election. That would be DNI nominee or now he's been confirmed, Jay Clayton and then, of course, Attorney General Tod of those two people who are gonna be serving Donald Trump in his mission to ferret out election malfeasance, wherever it may be. Who scares you more?
- [34:18]
B
That's a great question, because they're both equally bad, right? I mean, I think that Jay Clayton is an upgrade from Bill Pulte, whose main sort of credential is that he's the heir to a real estate development fortune.
- [34:31]
A
Yeah, Meme stock investor. Yeah, Meme stock investor. Loves Bed Bath and Beyond by high
- [34:36]
B
by now, by now. So I guess we should say Clayton is kind of an upgrade. But the fact that Jon Ossoff, who did a brilliant job questioning him, could not get him to just answer that question and can't get, by the way, any of these nominees to answer the question who won the 2020 election? Shows you what the game is, right? You can't say Joe Biden won the 2020 election and get the job. Donald Trump will not nominate you. Your sort of right of passage is to lie to him and make him feel better because his were hurt because he lost to the old geezer. And so you have to tell him that he won. And so they both did that. But I have to say that Clayton is in the position to do more damage in some ways because he inherits Tulsi Gabbard's former job of pretending to prevent foreign interference in the states where Donald Trump fears that he will lose again or that his candidates will lose again. So the fact that he also, after not being able to answer the question about the election, the next question was, are you aware that Tulsi Gabbard was in Georgia when they were confiscating ballots and he was like, hey, what are you talking about?
- [35:45]
A
He's like, I was just made aware of that now by you and is asked by also you just found out about that, that your office is investigating this. And he said, you were just telling me today, right? Or I'm paraphrasing. But effectively he's like, I just woke up from a 10 year slumber under an apple tree and found out that the Director of National Intelligence is tasked with overseeing election interference in Fulton County.
- [36:10]
B
What? Yeah, yeah. I mean, and the thing is, I've always said to people, you know, and this was during the Hillary Clinton when I would confront people who didn't wanna vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016. And I'd always say, look, you're not voting to get yourself a roommate. You're not voting to have somebody move into your house. You're voting for somebody to oversee the FBI, the CIA, the nsa, the drone, the Pentagon and the FBI. And so now what you've got are people who are determined to fake prove that 2020 was stolen so that they can set the conditions to steal 2024 and 2028. This is not about the past. It feels like it's about the past. The election is so long ago. But they need to establish somehow, some basis in fake fact that the 2020 election was subjected to foreign interference so that they can go back to John Roberts, who is an easy mark with some patina of a case that will allow them to declare a national emergency so that they can stop mail in balloting, so that they can shut down any state that votes too Democratic and to arrest voters on site like they need to do that, but they need John Roberts to sign off.
- [37:15]
A
I want to get to all those mechanisms that the levers are trying to pull on that front. But I just. To go back to the Clayton Blanche dynamic, it astounds me, first of all, that we're not talking more about the fact that Clayton was confirmed by the Senate this week. The person, as you say, and we played the sound at the top of this episode, that it was incapable of saying that Joe Biden won the 2020 election. Having said that, I do think not nearly enough attention was paid to this very. I would say Todd Blanche seems utterly convinced in what he's saying, unlike Jay Clayton, who you could see him wrestling with his own conscience, subjugating himself to his own humiliation as he beclowned himself on the 2020 election question. But you saw. I saw a man that understood his own personal humiliation. Todd Blanche, on the other hand, to me seems like he has consumed the Kool Aid and is very much like his personal sort of ideology as Attorney general is very much. He is convinced that he exists to serve the president and that the Department of Justice exists as the president personal law firm. This is just a few highlights from him, just clearly disclosing the fact that he has no interest in acting independently or with an eye towards justice. Before that of the office of President
- [38:32]
D
is the Department of Justice that you are running independent from the White House. The Department of Justice, like every single department in the executive, is part of the executive. I mean, Article 2 of the Constitution gives the power of the executive to President Trump. We all serve at the pleasure of President Trump in this administration. And did President Trump ever post on Truth Social directing your predecessor to get at it to prosecute his perceived political enemies? I don't think those were his exact words. Those were not his exact words, no. But clearly that was the intention. If you're confirmed and you're asked to take an action you believe to be illegal or unethical, would you resign? That will never happen. But, yes, if it were to happen, I'm not going to violate my oath to the Constitution.
- [39:18]
A
That's my favorite part, is when he's like, I will never actually have an ethical objection to anything that I'm asked to do because I have no ethics. Joy.
- [39:27]
H
Right?
- [39:28]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [39:29]
A
Everything that Trump says is fair game. That's the tldr of that.
- [39:33]
B
Everything. And the difference between Clayton and Blanche, to your very excellent point, is that Blanche is a true believer, or he least pretend. Blanche is an ideologue in the sense that his whole life is consumed with exercising power through Donald Trump. He believes Donald Trump is the instrument of his future, of his existence. His whole identity is wrapped up in Trump. And this he claims Trump was just one of his many clients. But I watched him in action in the penultimate day of the trial at which Donald Trump became a felon, by the way, people have to remember, Todd Blanche lost. He and his compatriots lost in that case. But. But even in that courtroom, Todd Blanche operates as Trump is my man. I'm gonna do whatever it takes for Trump. He seems like if Trump ordered him to have his enemies arrested and put to death, he would do it. Like, I think that's the difference between Blanche and Clayton is that he'll do anything that Trump says. I don't think. But I don't think that's any different than Pam Bondi who clearly would also do anything. Right? I mean, so it's not different, but it's terrifying.
- [40:37]
A
Let's reserve a moment of silence for the YOLO caucus that was supposed to stand in the way of these two clowns. And like, we're recording Wednesday afternoon, and John Cornyn is putting up a fuss about voting on Blanche's confirmation out of committee because he wants assurances that the IRS slush fund is not going to happen. But first of all, the Department of Justice is going to pay out January six rioters, whether through that slush fund or other reparations funds that they have access to by law. So whatever John Cornyn says doesn't matter. And the end. At the end of the day, this guy's going to get through, I think. I mean, come back to me on, you know, next week when his nomination's been scuttled. But I have every reason to believe that Republican senators are effectively in a vegetative state. Everyone's angry about Mitch McConnell. What's the difference between a zucchini and Todd Blanche as far as enabling this president? Nothing. Like, he'll do whatever is asked of him, and the Senate Republicans will do the exact same. Like, there is no meaningful difference between someone who is, I don't know, in whatever state McConnell is in and the senators that sit on the Intel Committee and the Appropriations Committee.
- [41:40]
B
As far as I thought you were gonna say, what's the difference between a zucchini and Mitch McConnell? And my answer was gonna be, it's not clear that either of them, both of them are vegetables.
- [41:52]
A
Well, this is. I mean, I don't. And, listen, I respect his humanity enough to, I guess, wish him well, but I think what is happening. I don't want to take us on a complete McConnell sidetrack, but it's like people are rightfully astounded and enraged that someone who clearly is unable to speak on camera anymore, to say nothing of the other faculties, is still a sitting senator. I mean, I'd be furious if I lived in Kentucky. But, like, what did we expect? Like, nobody else is doing anything that requires any, like, brain cells. They're not standing in the way of these clowns. In fact, they're expediting their passage to become Cabinet officials.
- [42:32]
B
Well, and this. I think this makes the point, right? Because if people tend to expect a bit of independence from a handful of. Of Republican senators, Rand Paul being one of them. But Rand Paul just recently gave an interview to Newsmax in which he said, well, I don't know what the big deal is. I don't know why Andy Beshear, the governor of Kentucky, is so concerned about Mitch McConnell. We've had people missing for years, so it's like, I don't know if that's a flex buddy. And so you know he's gonna vote for Todd Blanche. I expect John Corner will kick and scream and hem and haw and vote for Todd Blanche. I expect the lady in Maine who's always so concerned Susan Collins will hem and ha and cry and, and vote for Todd Blanche. They're all gonna do it, right? I mean, this other guy who couldn't say when the Clayton, he was confirmed by one vote less than the existence of Mitch McConnell. They're all gonna vote for him. So just understand that they all understand the assignment. And what they did on the day that we're recording this shows you what the game is. Rand Paul, who's supposed to be one of the independent voices of reason and truth in the United States Senate on the Republican side, who breaks away from his party, held an entire hearing on the day we're recording this to change the subject from the failures of this administration, the failed war in Iran, the destruction of the US Economy, the physical destruction of the United States Capitol by Donald Trump, and the fact that Republicans are on track to lose. They're even polling behind in Texas to switch the whole subject at hand too. Anthony Fauci's who really caused the pandemic, Right?
- [44:04]
A
Exactly.
- [44:05]
B
And they held a whole hearing on that. So they're all going to do whatever it takes to stay in power and to give Donald Trump all the power he requests.
- [44:13]
A
Having said all of this, I do wanna bring up, I won't even say devil's advocate position, but Anthony Scaramucci, AKA the Mooch, and I were talking about these two nominees with our friend Nicole Wallace, and he was trying to make the point that like, as bad as you think Blanche and Clayton are, as bad as it could get, yet they're still better than like Bill Pulte, I guess. Cuz they like have law degrees and haven't been trying to push Bed Bath and Beyond meme stock, I guess. I don't know. Is that, is the bar so low that these guys are actually potentially improvements? Or am I, I mean, or is that just a fantasy?
- [44:48]
B
I mean, there's a, there's a very narrow range when it comes to qualifications in this administration. Right. I mean the, the, the bar that you have to cross is you have to be white, you know, and so there's that.
- [45:00]
A
Yes, you just basically have to Be white. You're right. It's literally any old white person will do.
- [45:07]
C
Yeah.
- [45:07]
B
And the less qualifications, the better. And you have to have very few morals and be willing to do whatever Donald Trump tells you. If he tells you to stand on your head, get onto the ground and figure out how to get on your head. Like, that's all that he requires. And it's not because Donald Trump is so all powerful. It's because Donald Trump is the. The facilitator for insanely unpopular ideas and policies that can only be made law because Donald Trump's call will punish any Republican who says no. So Donald Trump is the means by which project 2025 can happen, the means by which Stephen Miller can deport every brown person who reminds me of the girls who wouldn't talk to him in high school. It's the means by which the far right can implement the Handmaid's take, which most Americans and even most Republicans don't want. But they need to keep him in place and keep him feeling all powerful so they can get their shit. Like, everybody has their own things they want. And Trump is the means to an end. So everyone's gonna play ball. Even the ones you think are kind of independent. I don't even think that lady in Alaska, they give her so much. No one's going to stop Lisa Murkowski.
- [46:13]
A
Lisa Murkowskowki. You're not holding it.
- [46:14]
F
I mean, you.
- [46:14]
A
Okay, so you're making the point that never bet on Republicans having a spine or moral compass. So where does that leave you? Unthinking about the SAVE act, which is Trump's election interference law designed to keep people from voting. I'm summarizing. But we broke down the specifics of it in the intro to this episode. Like John Thune, who's the Senate Majority Leader, has been like that.
- [46:35]
G
We don't.
- [46:35]
A
The math is not mathing on this. We do not have the votes to pass this. He has said he's not a fan of nuking the filibuster, which I guess is the only way you could do this. But, like, I'm. I'm, like, old enough to know that. That betting on Republicans to stand up to Trump is a fool's errand. I mean, are you worried about the passage of the SAVE Act? Do you feel like. I mean, what do you think happens there?
- [46:56]
B
I think the SAVE act reminds me of the attempt to gerrymander South Carolina. Right. There's something. Republicans are willing to commit mass democracy homicide. Right. They're willing to kill democracy in Every way, except the ways in which it might remove their own power and their own jobs security. And the SAVE act poison pill is the pill that would hurt them. First of all, the filibuster. The filibuster. If you say if you pass a bill that makes it so that married white women have fewer opportunities to vote because that's who would be impacted the most. Right? The biggest group of married women are
- [47:34]
A
married, just to be clear. That's because they've changed. Married white women often change their names. Name changes become a difficult thing to manage in terms of voter registration. And then also older people who vote traditionally have voted. Republicans voted by mail would be greatly disenfranchised by this. Including Donald Trump potentially hurt Republicans as much as Democrats.
- [47:53]
B
It would make it harder for Donald Trump to vote because he's a senior citizen who votes in Florida by mail. It would make it harder for John, Donald, James, David Vance, Donald, whatever his name is. He's changed his name 18 times. If he had to show a match between his birth register, his registration, his birth registration and his voter registration, he couldn't do it any more than I could. So it's making it harder for their people to vote. And again, remember, the whole road to Republican hegemony does ride through married white women because single white women are going the other way. They're losing single college educated white women who are starting to drift toward voting like all other women who vote mainly Democrat. And so they've got to hang on to the votes of married white women. The SAVE act hurts them more than anybody else. It would make it harder for them to vote. It would make it harder for Republicans to stay in power. They would pass that only at their own peril. That vote, that package a say back would hurt Republicans more than it would hurt Democrats. So at this point, John Thune is like, I'm not gonna commit suicide for Donald Trump cuz I need this job. It's a great job. I get great benefits.
- [48:52]
A
I love the Senate gym. Yes, more of my conversation with Joy in just a minute. But first, hey guys, if you haven't heard yet, Runaway country is available ad free. You just have to become a friends of the POD subscriber today to get ad free episodes of Runaway country and more of your favorite crooked podcasts without the ads, including Pod Save America, Pod Save the World, Love it or Leave it and Offline with Jon Favreau. Subscribers also get tons of bonus content, including Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer Personal Fam Fave, which delivers expert takes on polls and the media ad free breaking news episodes that feature real time analysis by the hair of our chinny chin chin. More Pod Save America including the Only Friends podcast and the Open Tabs Daily newsletter and so much, much more. Your subscription supports independent progressive media, so head to crooked.com friends to subscribe now. Runaway country is brought to you by Oneskin. Whether you're someone who tries every new skincare product that hits the market or you've been using the same one or two things for years, at some point most of us realize our skin just ain't keeping up the way it used to. And that is what Oneskin changed for me. It doesn't just make my existing routine better, it actually works than other things I've tried thanks to the OS1 peptide, which is specifically engineered to address those pesky fine lines. And with summer here, that matters even more because up to 80% of visible skin aging starts with sun exposure. But One Skin's new limited edition summer bundles have got you covered. It's their skincare and SPF essentials paired together, so make sure to check them out before they're gone. I have been using their moisturizer religiously. I feel great about it. The texture is really nice. It's super absorbent, but also very hydrating. You really don't need a complicated routine to get healthier, younger looking skin. Born from over a decade of longevity research, One Skin's helping you unlock your healthiest skin now. And as you age, for a limited time, try one skin with 15% off using code ALEX at OneSkin co. Alex that is 15% off OneSkin co with code ALEX. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support Runaway country and tell them them Alex sent you.
- [51:15]
H
In moments like these, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and even easier to feel powerless. But we are neither. I'm Stacey Abrams and on my podcast Assembly Required, I take on each executive action, legislative battle and breaking news moment by asking three questions. What's really happening? What can we do about it? And how do we keep going together? This is a space for clarity, strategy and hope rooted in action, not denial. New episodes of Assembly Required Drop Tuesdays. Tune in wherever you get your podcast and on YouTube.
- [51:57]
A
I think you're I also really think you're onto something on the filibuster piece because as as the sort of majority that is not forced to vote on fucking anything. Even the stuff they're supposed to vote on. If they get rid of the filibust, they'd start they'd they'd have to start voting and like, oh my God, what a disaster that would be to actually make a statement of principles as a Republican senator. And that's, I think, probably also the straw that breaks the camel's back, like in order to pass the SAVE Act. It's not that we have any great. I mean, there are potential concerns about disenfranchising their own voters. They love the idea of disenfranchising Democrats, people of color, young people, et cetera. But then also on top of that, to have to give up their ability to. Ability to shirk any real legislative action, like to make them do their damn jobs. They're like, no, fuck this.
- [52:46]
B
Well, and they can't guarantee that they'll always have a Chuck Schumer on the other side who would never ever think to really do anything to hurt Republicans or the sort of right wing corporate interests that also pay him and his party and his party's leadership. One day they might have a Senate Majority leader who's more like a Harry Reid or more like a Chris Van Hollen. More like a Chris Murphy. If they get that kind of guy. I want them to get rid of the filibuster. I'm like, please get rid of the filibuster. We would have to probably have some temporary pain, but then we could pass, I don't know, making Puerto Rico a state, make D.C. a state.
- [53:24]
A
The legislative branch would have its balls back, basically, you know, like they'd had there. No doubt there's downside, but I'm back on, on the get rid of it train. Just because the legislative branch is nothing, there's nothing there. So, like, it's a co equal branch of government, let's start acting like one.
- [53:41]
B
Amen.
- [53:42]
A
What about speaking of co. Equal branches of government, Donald Trump's executive order, which is his version of like voter suppression housed in the executive branch, is now, well, it may be taken up by the Supreme Court. Right. The lower courts have been like, the federal government doesn't run elections, states do. So you guys can like mandate that USPS and DHS get involved in voter rolls and registration and all that shit. But like, no, this, this one's pretty clear in the Constitution. And yet if it goes to the Supreme Court, what's your like, level of optimism that John Roberts, who you name checked earlier, is going to shut this thing down?
- [54:20]
B
I have zero faith in John Roberts. I have no faith in him. I don't believe he believes in the Constitution. I believe he believes in a supreme executive. That's more like A king. I'm not sure he wouldn't have sided with King George had he been involved in the 1776 uprising. He's a monarchist, and so I think he's a more polite monarchist. He's not an asshole like Alito. Actually, he is an asshole, but he's just. He comes across with more comity. Like, you can take him to a cocktail party. Right?
- [54:50]
A
You can't take Alito to a cocktail party.
- [54:52]
B
No, no, absolutely.
- [54:53]
A
He might bring his Insurrection Protectionist T
- [54:54]
B
shirt and his crazy wife. And so you can't, you know, So I know that for sure. There are at least four votes to federalize elections. For sure. I would think there might be five because I don't trust John Roberts. So I think because we have an insurrectionist court, I fear anything going to them that has to do with our rights. And so it wouldn't shock me if they said, yeah, you know what? We Somehow rearrange the 14th amendment to say that it actually means that Donald Trump's right to privacy means he can privately control elections. So there you go.
- [55:30]
A
The word privacy is in both of those sentences. You're welcome, America. You know what strikes me about the executive order is it is at once a complete federal overreach, and plainly the Constitution does not allow for it. But who knows what SCOTUS does? But also, one of the things that keeps our election elections safe is the fact that they are run by states. And so it's harder to hack into one main database. It's harder to purge voter rolls in a central location. This would undo that and federalize our elections and make fraud so much easier. It's like nobody's talking about that. Joy, do you think it's an oversight on the part of Trump and his minions that this is a major issue by federalizing the elections, or is that the whole fucking point?
- [56:16]
B
I feel like it's the whole fucking point, because think about it. If you have one central database, because, right, the easiest way to steal an election is not to hack into the machines. I remember doing this way back when I was at local NBC News because I was really interested in it from the 2000 election. And we called voting system operators when I was my little digital editor trying to be my little independent journalist. Yes, girl, right. And what we kept hearing back is that they're not networked together, that these voting machines are all individually, they're not networked, and they have an intranet, not an internal Internet. But guess how you really could mess with elections is getting the voter rolls if you can hack into the voter rolls, you can just delete everybody whose last name ends with Z. So all the Hispanics would suddenly have a hard time voting. And all you do is just enter some code and say, everybody with Z's gone. So if you can get into the voter rolls, that's really the way to mess with elections. Well, if you put all those things in one centralized database, if I'm in Russia or I'm in China, or I'm
- [57:09]
A
in or at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. I mean, I don't mean to be a tinfoil hatter here, but, like, this man is proven. Find me 11,000 votes. Like, he is very willing to engage in hand to hand combat, to interfere and meddle in elections. Like, and now we're supposed to hand him the keys to all the voter rolls. Like, all of them. Again, there is nothing to suggest that Donald Trump has meddled in a central database, but, like, he wants to establish one that determines whether people can vote or not. That seems questionable.
- [57:39]
B
It's crazy. And the other piece of it is that even if you don't believe that there's nefarious intent, what we've already found is that this saved infrastructure they've already created and demanded that states submit their voter rolls to has been rife with errors. So you're gonna have the Doge kids who couldn't figure out that the Enola Gay didn't mean gay people. Those kids are gonna decide whether you can vote. I mean, this. Is that true? Is that a fact, ma'? Am? Enola Gay got wiped out of the Pentagon list of the war heroes. Remember? They were trying to clean up the guy.
- [58:15]
F
Oh, my God.
- [58:16]
A
So dumb.
- [58:17]
B
They swept up the Enola Gay because the word gay was in it. Those people would control our elections.
- [58:24]
A
I'm so embarrassed. I'm so embarrassed. Okay, I have two more for you. One. I mean, it's just like, this is so embarrassing. This, this is all so. I mean, independent of being nefarious and potentially catastrophic in terms of rule of law, it's also embarrassing. You know, like, you go, you look at. I mean, if you just step outside of America, whether physically or metaphorically, you're like, man, what a dumpster fire. Like, and my mom is from Burma, where it's like, there are not free and fair elections. But I genuinely. I have to point out this article in the Wall Street Journal. They report that two senior Trump administration officials were denied visas to the country of Brazil because the government is worried that merely by inviting in a Trump delegation, they're gonna help Jair Bolsonaro's camp undermine electronic voting in the country. Like. Like they're vectors for, like, electoral poison, electoral viruses. I just cannot. I mean, I generally think. I mean, genuinely think. We are now approaching the point when people will start to look at American elections and wonder if they were fair, regardless of partisanship. You know, like, they might look at a Democratic victory if they're conservative and say, did that person really win? And ditto for a conservative victory because we've so grossly undermined our integrity on all of this.
- [59:44]
B
Yeah. And if you.
- [59:44]
A
That wasn't a question, but it's a statement of.
- [59:47]
B
No, it's a statement of fact, of indignation and fact. I mean, at this point, if you poll Republicans, I think it's something like 70% believe the 2020 election was stolen. They only believe elections when Republicans win. They believe that Donald Trump both had the election from him stolen in Georgia, but that each of their Republican Congress, people who won free and fair, they parse it that way. And they don't even understand that Donald Trump says his election was stolen when he, his administration was in charge of the infrastructure, and he won both times when Democrats were in charge of the federal infrastructure. They can hold all those things. And so internationally, people are gonna start to look at the United States and say, well, shit, if y' all don't really even believe your own elections are fair, why should you come over and talk and send delegations to our country? Why are you selling delegations to African countries to see if they're cheating on elections when y' all don't even believe your own? You think so I'm right. I'm with Brazil because I wouldn't trust the State Department run by Marco Rubio, who wants to be the king of Cuba, to go and run my election. They're just gonna say, Bolsonaro's person won. We know how that's gonna go. America's gonna say the only free and fair result is that the right winger won because they wanna control the region and they need to control each of those countries. Brazil's the biggest country, so I wouldn't trust them either. Ed Luce has a really great piece out now where he talks about the diminishing power of Trump globally because the more crazy shit he says, the more the world's starting to dismiss him and us. We have lost our hold on the moral compass for the world. We do not have a moral high on elections or anything else at this point. It's sad, but that's where we Are. Yeah.
- [61:23]
A
I mean, and the problem, I think almost. It's almost more of a problem that Trump didn't win two consecutive terms, but that he won. We had a Democrat in office between these two terms, and the country still chose Donald Trump to be its leader, which is a real indictment of our ethics, at the very least. Do you think with all this election shift, like, is this Trump's version of Diet Coke? Like, is this the thing that gets him up in the. I mean, other than, like, 14 karat gold gilding on, like, horse statues and, like, make of that, what you will, like, draw all the.
- [61:57]
B
With super glue. The fact that he uses super glue to add it.
- [62:02]
A
Like, I honestly wish he would stick to super gluing fake gold tchotchkes around the Oval Office. That would be a good hobby for him. It's like, George Bush has the painting, you have the gilding. But nonetheless, like, I, at one point, I go back and forth between, like, my assessment that he really believes this stuff or that it's just a means to an end. And now I think we're at the stage of mental decline. I mean, I don't know what you think, but I think he genuinely thinks. I think he's convinced himself that there's actually gonna be fraud, which gives him a permission structure to do anything he needs to in the 26 midterms. And it's why he's playing footsie with the idea that he might not step down in 2020, because God knows what's gonna happen with that election. Like, he's creating. He's like, he's bought in. He's high on his own supply.
- [62:49]
B
Well, yeah, I think he. Much like Todd Blanche, you sort of build your own reality. I mean, back when I was not in media, but was working in campaign politics as a press secretary, my saying always was, in order to do spin, you have to first spin yourself. Because if you can't convince yourself that what you're saying and what you're selling is true, then you can't authentically communicate. Right. And I think that Donald Trump, because he comes from that church of the power of positive thinking, that's the ult religion his family was ever involved in. He came out of it with this attitude of, you never say you lost, you never say you're wrong, and you never apologize. And I think he started with this strategy, which Steve Bannon announced in advance, and so did Roger Stone. He said, if we lose in November of 2020, we're just gonna say we won, and then all hell's Gonna break loose. We're gonna try to stay in power. That was said openly, right, that they were just gonna claim that they. And I think it started as a strategy. But Donald Trump, because he is in declining mental and cognitive health, he's now started to believe it. I think he's begun to believe his own spin, and now he's convinced himself of it. And enough sycophants have convinced him with evidence that they show him that's convincing to him, that makes him feel, oh, my God, this really happened. And so I think he started off as a strategic sort of plot and a ploy, but now I think he does believe it. And now it's almost dangerous to try to get him to not believe it anymore, to disabuse him of it. He will punish you. He will be cruel to you if you try to now talk him down from it. Dr. Jonathan Gardner, who we've had on the Joy Reid show multiple times, has said, you have to now understand that Donald Trump isn't well and that his delusions have overtaken him. And it's a combination of his age and sort of natural cognitive decline due
- [64:31]
A
to age, but also his general shittiness. His general shittiness.
- [64:34]
B
Narcissistic personality disorder. This man has deep narcissistic personality disorder, and he had it when he was mentally healthy, and so now he's mentally unhealthy. And that disorder has become manifest, and it has become a megalomania. And so I think he's a sick person. He shouldn't be president. And the Republicans around him know that. Lindsey Graham knew it, but they're using him because his sick mind. Mind is useful to them and his sickness. And as long as they keep feeding the delusion, they can still get their shit. Everybody just wants them to pick off the things they can get from Trump. It's actually elder abuse at this point, but it's also abusing us all.
- [65:10]
A
Wow, that's mic drop right there. Elder abuse. That's what's happening inside the fucking Republican Party.
- [65:17]
D
Yes.
- [65:17]
A
And that's why you're a 3 Pete guest on this podcast, Madam. Boom.
- [65:23]
G
Boom.
- [65:23]
A
Oh, joy. All right, well, on that note, I will just say thank you, my friend, for bringing light to the darkness.
- [65:36]
B
You mean dark to the darkness.
- [65:38]
A
Actually, I know it's not really. I mean, listen, there will be an election. I'm with Jon Ossoff on this. I don't know how you feel about this as someone who spent some time in the south, but the more you tell people they can't vote the more badly they wanna vote and the more it underscores just what an important right and fundamental right it is. So I am hopeful that all this chicanery and bullshit and garbage spewing is actually gonna do everything to get people to the polls in November. That's my.
- [66:03]
B
Yep. And by the way, I know I shouldn't do this. It's so wrong. It's so wrong. But am I team Ossoff for 2028?
- [66:10]
A
Oh, dude. I mean, am I an Osoff? I think everybody's looking in the mirror and asking themselves that. Everyone. I will just say this person, Alex Wagner, interviewed him when he was a lowly Senate candidate and spent a lot of time with him and was very impressed with his message discipline and his conviction then. So. So he has only, I think, grown as a candidate and as a. Well, as a legislator since then. He's been very impressive. But I am loath to weigh in on any race that is happening in the future. My friend, Joy Reid, host of the Joy Reid Show. You are the greatest. I love you. Thank you, sister.
- [66:41]
B
Love you back, Wags. Thank you. Have me back often. And please come on my show as well. See you soon.
- [66:47]
A
That is our show for this week. Please don't forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. If somehow you are not sick of me yet, please also take a gander at my substack. How the hell with Alex Wagner. Last but not least, if you've been impacted directly by the Trump administration or its policies, send us an email or a one minute voice note@runawaycountryokked.com and we may be in touch to feature your story. Huge thank you to everyone who has written in already. Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Ilona Minkowski, Emma Ilech, Frank Haley Jones and Anisha Banerjee, with help from Eric Schutt, Kenny Moffat and Charlotte Landis. Production support from Ben Hethcote, Katie Long, Adrienne Hill, and Matt De Groat. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
- [67:36]
H
In moments like these, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and even easier to feel powerless. But we are neither here. I'm Stacey Abrams and on my podcast, Assembly Required, I take on each executive action, legislative battle, and breaking news moment by asking three what's really happening? What can we do about it? And how do we keep going together? This is a space for clarity, strategy and hope rooted in action, not denial. New episodes of assembly request required. Drop Tuesdays. Tune in wherever you get your podcast and on YouTube.