Loading summary
Transcript186 lines
- [00:00]
A
Runaway country is brought to you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. There is a through line in the American story that feels especially relevant right now. This country began as a rebellion, not just against monarchy, but against the idea of divine authority shaping government. And the Founders carried that forward in a secular constitution, one that protects freedom of conscience by keeping church and state separate. That framework helped make a pluralistic society possible, but like any system, it depends on maintenance and and today we are seeing renewed efforts to blur that boundary in ways that reshape your and my religious freedom. The Freedom From Religion foundation is working to protect the First Amendment because it protects you. As we approach 250 years, the semi sequentennial, the question isn't just what we inherit, it's what we choose to sustain. Visit FFRF US Alex or text my first name Alex Al to 511511 to learn more and join. That's FFRF US Alex or text my name A L e x to 511-511- remember, text Alex to 511-511 today and support the work of protecting our shared freedoms. Message and data rates may apply with Verbal's last minute deals, you can save over $50 on your spring getaway. So whether it's a mountain escape with friends, a family week at the beach or sightseeing in a new city, there's there's still time to get great discounts. Book your next day Now. Average savings $72 select homes only.
- [01:43]
B
Tired of overpaying with DirecTV? Dish offers a reliable low price every month with without surprises.
- [01:51]
C
Get the TV you love and start watching live sports news and the latest
- [01:55]
B
movies, plus your favorite streaming apps all in one place.
- [01:59]
C
Switch to Dish today and lock in
- [02:01]
B
the lowest price in satellite TV starting at 89.99amonth with our two year price guarantee.
- [02:08]
C
Call 888 add dish or visit dish.com today.
- [02:14]
A
Hi everyone. As of this week, Donald Trump is officially in emperor mode after filing an utterly garbage laws earlier this year against the IRS for $10 billion in damages over the leak of his tax returns and the federal search of Mar? A Lago. On Monday, Trump dropped his suit. It was never going to go anywhere in court, of course, but that didn't stop Trump's Justice Department from offering the President a sweet, sweet deal in exchange. Specifically, the Justice Department is creating a $1.776 billion fund to settle claims by people who feel they were targeted by by federal prosecution. Trump is calling it the Anti Weaponization Fund, but we might more accurately call it the Insurrectionist Slush fund. Because you know who's tops on the list to claim these billions in reparations? The people who stormed the US Capitol on January 6, 2021 to 50B.
- [03:09]
B
Advise police one advisor trying to breach
- [03:11]
C
and get to the Capitol.
- [03:18]
A
Trying to hold the Emperor back.
- [03:20]
C
We are trying to hold the Emperor back.
- [03:25]
A
The insurrectionists who obstructed the certification of the 2020 election by smashing windows and trashing the Capitol. They had mace and firearms and explosives. Hundreds of police officers tried to hold the line defending the building. Over 170 of them were assaulted and injured during the fighting. One died in a hospital the following day. Four more died by suicide in the months that followed. Nevertheless, Trump promised to pardon the, quote, patriots who stormed the Capitol.
- [03:54]
C
And.
- [03:54]
A
And he wasted no time doing that on his very first day in office.
- [03:58]
B
Yes, sir. First, we have a list of pardons and commutations relating to events that occurred on January 6, 2021.
- [04:05]
C
Okay, and how many people is this? I think this order will apply to
- [04:09]
B
approximately 1,500 people, sir.
- [04:12]
C
So this is January 6th, and these are the hostages.
- [04:16]
A
Approximately 1,500 for a pardon?
- [04:20]
C
Yes, full pardon.
- [04:22]
A
I remember that night in January very well. I was standing outside the D.C. jail where many of those January 6th convicts were being held, and I was talking to their families and to the inmates as they were released. Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again? Oh, absolutely.
- [04:38]
C
I would die for the man.
- [04:39]
B
I would have died for him that day.
- [04:41]
A
And if these convicted offenders love Trump, then just imagine their feelings about him. Now. The Anti Weaponization fund could make many of the January 6th insurrectionists very, very rich. But who gets the money and why will be up to the commissioners of this fund, whose decisions will not necessarily be made public. And those five commissioners will be appointed by the Acting Attorney General, Trump's former personal lawyer, Todd Blanche. The commissioners can be dismissed by the president at any time for any reason. The fund did not require judicial approval, and the White House believes it does not require congressional approval, nor does any this necessarily have the approval of the American public, despite whatever President Trump is now saying.
- [05:24]
C
It's been very well received.
- [05:25]
A
I have to tell you, I know very little about it. I wasn't involved in the whole creation
- [05:30]
C
of it and the negotiation. But this is reimbursing people that were horribly treated.
- [05:37]
A
So who exactly will get the funds? We know that President Trump himself can't technically access the money, but that doesn't mean that his family members can't Moreover, on Tuesday, we learned that as part of this deal, the IRS has pledged that it will no longer pursue any claims it may have against Trump or his family members and his companies over unpaid taxes. According to the New York Times, that could save Donald Trump up to $100 million in potential tax penalties as Americans are suffering under rising inflation, exploding health care costs, skyrocketing fuel costs, and giving the President an abominable 28% approval rating on cost of living. The Justice Department is helping Trump evade taxes and has forked over settlements of 1 million dol each to former Trump officials Michael Flynn and Carter Page. And now it is ready to spend more, hundreds of millions of dollars more on any other allies who feel somehow wronged. The outrageous deal between the Department of Justice and the president may be the most extreme example we have yet of the corruption of this White House and the ways in which the executive has decided to crown himself emperor. I'm Alex Wagner, and this week on Runaway Country. What does it mean for America when the US Taxpayer is forced to pay out the very people who tried to upend democracy? And can anything be done to stop the Trump train from steamrolling what used to be our system of checks and balances? I'll be talking to the brilliant Andrew Weissman, attorney, professor, and authority of the new book Liars Kingdom. Andrew was, of course, one of the lead prosecutors in the Mueller investigation. He also led the fraud section at the doj. So we will be getting into the nitty gritty and whether any of this holds up in court or in the halls of Congress. But first, what is it like to watch the creation of a reparations fund for insurrectionists as someone who nearly died defending the Capitol? Well, to get a firsthand perspective, I am now talking to Michael Fanone, the now retired officer who was serving with the Metropolitan Police Department when the Capitol was stormed. Michael was called a traitor to the country. He was attacked and tased, and he was eventually beaten unconscious. What does he think about President Trump's hero worship and potential payouts to the same people who beat him? Here's our conversation. Michael, for people who have forgotten, including and especially this administration, can you remind us of what happened to you on January 6th? Yeah.
- [08:14]
B
So, first, a little background on my law enforcement career. I began my career with the United States Capitol police immediately after 9 11. Like many Americans, I was inspired to serve. I served with U.S. capitol Police for one year from 2001 to 2002. I loved the career, hated the job. So I left and went to the more traditional law enforcement agency here in Washington, D.C. which is the Metropolitan Police Department, where I serve for the next 19 years. I worked primarily in special mission units, small units focusing on violent crime and narcotics trafficking. And on January 6, 2021, my day was supposed to entail an undercover drug buy as part of a heroin investigation that my office was involved in. The furthest thing from my mind or my area of responsibility was what was taking place at the Ellipse in the Stop the Steal rally hosted by Donald Trump and his supporters. But obviously, history had something different in store for me. So, yeah, I responded to the Capitol on January 6th. I self deployed. I heard the distress calls coming out from dozens upon dozens of officers and officials at the Capitol who had been overrun and were being violently assaulted by Donald Trump's supporters, who were fueled by his lies that the election had been stolen. And as a result, I was pulled from a police line. I was dragged down into the crowd. I was restrained, violently beaten, and struck several times on the neck with a taser device. Ultimately, I was diagnosed with a traumatic brain injury and a heart attack. And for all intents and purposes, that spelled the end of my law enforcement career. Not so much because of the physical injuries, but obviously I've become very outspoken, a truth teller, if you will, about the reality of January 6th and where we are as a country and the threat that this administration poses to our democracy. And that did not mesh well with being a police officer in Washington, D.C. and so after returning to full duty In November of 2021, I quit after about a month and left the department. And I have not been back since.
- [10:53]
A
I'm first of all, just so sorry every time, you know, I've talked to you before, and every time, every time you tell me the story, first of all, it's it just a gut punch every time. And I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. And I'm also so grateful that you're speaking openly and honestly about how you understand that moment and what you think the whitewashing of that moment has done to us as a society. I was outside D.C. jail on the night that Trump pardoned all the insurrectionists from January 6th. And I know how I felt sort of watching that happen. But how did you feel when the president made good on a campaign promise to let them all go?
- [11:30]
B
I mean, I was angry, but I was not surprised. In fact, I was more angry at the people that were surprised than I was with Donald Trump himself for doing it. I watched when Donald Trump announced his candidacy in Waco Texas, the scene of a violent confrontation between American law enforcement officers and right wing extremists that resulted in the deaths of many law enforcement officers. And so when he promised to pardon the great patriots, as he called them, and the heroes of January 6th, I knew that if he was elected that he was going to carry out that, that promise.
- [12:18]
A
So, yeah, I think it's probably natural to be frustrated with people who are incredulous about something that Trump promised explicitly on the campaign trail and made no bones about. But the.
- [12:27]
B
I had also, I had been traveling the country for the better part of four years at that point, trying to educate people about January 6th and the reality of that day. But it was an insurmountable task. I mean, I was going up against a media empire in Fox News and all of these right wing extremist media networks that were pumping Americans full of lies and a false reality. And so I knew just from having taken the temperature of the country that one, the vast majority of Americans didn't give a shit about January 6th because it didn't affect them. And two, a huge swath of the American people thought that the people that stormed the Capitol that day were justified in doing so.
- [13:19]
A
Okay, so to that end, Trump, at the end of last week and the beginning of the week, we really get information about what is being called the anti weaponization fund, which, you know, I think would be better termed an insurrectionist slush fund. But what did you think when you first heard about this thing? Like, what was your immediate reaction? Because this wasn't something he had talked about on the campaign trail.
- [13:41]
B
Well, first I was glad that I filed an extension on my taxes and I'll make the decision in, you know, come October as to whether I'm paying into this.
- [13:52]
A
Yeah, I mean, I can imagine.
- [13:53]
B
I mean, listen, it's, it's outrageous. At some point, I think that it's not productive to continue to blame the administration for doing things that the administration has said it was going to do all along, and focusing on defeating the administration and defeating those Americans that would support this type of unconstitutional, lawless, and I think, most importantly, inhumane and cruel behavior. I'll be honest with you. Like, recently my focus has been on Democrats who are just not doing enough to stand in the breach and fight back. Because, you know, to me, we only have one legitimate political party left in this country. And while I might not be, you know, ideologically aligned with each and every one of them, to me they're the only political tool that we have to try to defeat this without violence. And so once we lose a political solution, what do we have left?
- [14:58]
A
Yeah, well. Yeah, violence. Why do you think the president wanted to do this now?
- [15:03]
B
Personally, I think that it has to do with. It's coming on the heels of the dismantling of the Voting Rights Act.
- [15:15]
A
Yeah.
- [15:16]
B
And I think that it's basically thumbing their nose or laughing at people of color in this country who have been pushing for reparations for literally hundreds of years. Quite frankly, deservedly so. But it's saying that we made this argument for decades that it couldn't be done. And then in the stroke of a pen and a day, Donald Trump sets aside $1.776 billion to pay a bunch of angry white dudes that stormed the Capitol on January 6th. And so I think that's the. In their mind, that's the joke. The joke of it all.
- [15:59]
A
Well, it also is a signal to anybody who wants to disrupt an election that you'll get pardoned and paid.
- [16:06]
B
Yes. I mean, as if pardoning them wasn't enough, I've told everyone that anytime you try to engage with, like, a Scott Jennings type who wants to argue that this, both sides, the left is more responsible for normalizing political violence in this country or advocating for it. No, that's insane. That's absurd. Donald Trump supports advocates for political violence actively, not in overt or subvert terms or in veiled messaging. He says it overtly, and then he acts on it by absolving those individuals of criminal culpability. And then as if to add insult to injury or throwing salt on the wound, he goes a step further and sets up a fundamental to pay those individuals for having committed crimes on his
- [16:59]
A
behalf that you're going to pay for. Like, that's probably the most galling thing. When you say, I haven't paid my taxes, I'm not going to tell you
- [17:06]
B
whether I pay for it or not.
- [17:08]
A
Right. In theory. But in theory, you, Michael Fanone, are supposed to be paying the people that beat and tased you on January 6th.
- [17:17]
B
Yeah.
- [17:17]
A
And this is to be rectifying an injustice. It is textbook injustice itself, Alex.
- [17:24]
B
The real injustice is that more Americans aren't outraged by this administration and its unconstitutional and inhumane behavior. It's hard to complain about a slush fund being set up when you have, you know, vulnerable communities in this country constantly being targeted by the administration and having them roll back rights that were literally fought, bled, and, you know, lives sacrificed for. It was disgusting to me that, you know, the Edmund Pettus Bridge should have fallen under the weight of the amount of Americans that participated in that march. There should have been millions. Every fucking Democrat member of Congress should have been down there marching because this is a national disgrace and an outrage. But you know, it's gonna, it's gonna continue in this country until Americans wake up and realize that they're gonna have to be uncomfortable and they're gonna have to ante up and kick in. They're gonna have to prioritize civil engagement and they're gonna, they're probably gonna end up having to prioritize civil disobedience.
- [18:35]
A
Let me ask you one more thing. The anti weaponization fund, the slush fund, the sort of rules governing the disbursement of funds is pretty, are pretty hazy, but it sounds like, you know, they're saying it's distinctly nonpartisan, it's non political. Like you could, theoretically, I mean, given the harassment and the, well, the physical pain that you've endured, the mental anguish, the professional, you know, harm that you've, you've had to weather, I mean, you could apply for the slush fund money and arguably would deserve some. Has ever crossed your mind?
- [19:13]
B
No, I don't want anything from this administration and quite frankly, I don't want anything from our government, period. I wouldn't take any money if Joe Biden was the President. I certainly wouldn't waste my time trying to apply and that, you know, listen, I applaud Harry Dunn and Danny Hodges. Those two are real fighters and I will always consider them to be, you know, brothers in arms, so to speak. I don't have any faith in the court system in this country. I think it's corrupted, I think it's corroded and I think it's beyond repair. And so I'm not going to waste my time with a frivolous effort, at least that's how I view it. But I do, I think everybody needs to be doing everything. And so, you know, if that's the way that they want to pursue justice, then I'm all for it. But I think once it gets to the Supreme Court, it'll be dismantled, shot down. Trump will be allowed to pay these people. I mean, the other thing too is like watching members of Congress, I mean, there's a few that are appropriately outraged, but for the vast majority, certainly on the Republican side, but for the vast majority, treating it as though, like you said, it was some type of a bipartisan effort. Are you insane? Are these people actually insane? We have Donald Trump's personal attorney cosplaying as the Attorney General of The United States, who says that this is going to be a fair and impartial review board set up. They pardoned 1500 violent criminals with the stroke of a pen without so much as reviewing a single solitary case. I remember vividly on Air Force One when the reporter, I forget his name, asked Donald Trump about my case in which Daniel Rodriguez drove a stun gun into my neck multiple times on January 6, and whether or not that individual deserved to be pardoned. And Donald Trump responded, we'll look into it. That was after he had already pardoned him. There was no looking into shit. Donald Trump didn't care. He did exactly what, you know, what you implied, which was he pardoned these people, and now he's creating this fund because he wants them to engage in violence around the midterm elections because they can't lose. They can't lose. If they lose the midterm elections, then they could be subjected to oversight, real oversight and accountability. And they all know they've committed crimes. Everyone in Donald Trump's orbit knows they've committed crimes. Steve Bannon admitted it. If we lose the midterm elections, a lot of us in this room are going to go to prison. Now, listen, the Democrats don't have the greatest track record when it comes to holding Donald Trump accountable, but they've all we got. They're all we got. So, you know, fingers crossed. But I think they're gonna throw absolutely everything that they can at us, the American people, to try to prevent us from voting them out of office. And it's already begun.
- [22:13]
A
Well, Michael Fanon, I have to say, your rage or your anger or your frustration, I should say, is palpable and completely understandable. And I think you speak for a lot of us in your indign. But certainly your specific history on this makes you so compelling. And I'm so grateful for you sharing your thoughts and being so honest about your feelings on this.
- [22:38]
B
I appreciate that. I just was going to say, I hope nobody came into this interview expecting, like, sunshines, rainbows and unicorns.
- [22:45]
A
We knew we booked Michael Fanone, right?
- [22:47]
B
I'm the doom and gloom guy.
- [22:49]
A
No, you're just a lightning bolt. I look forward to the day I
- [22:54]
B
look at Christmas yet to come.
- [22:57]
A
I look forward to the day when it's sunshine and rainbows. I don't know when that's gonna be, but I look forward to that day.
- [23:03]
B
Me, too.
- [23:04]
A
Michael, thank you so much. Thank you for being one of the very few who were there that day to speak out so passionately and vociferously. And compellingly. I'm really grateful for your time.
- [23:16]
B
Thank you very much.
- [23:18]
A
After the break, we will put this all into context with lawyer and thinker Andrew Weissman. Runaway country is brought to you by bookshop.org would you be surprised to learn that we are living in a resurgence of independent bookstores? More than 1,000 new stores opened in the last five years. Independent bookstores do more than sell books. They take care of and pour back into their communities, creating safe spaces that foster culture, curiosity and a love of reading. When you purchase from bookshop.org, you are supporting more than 3,000 local independent bookstores so they can continue their essential work. I am reading right now Clutch, which is a great book that I actually ordered from bookshop.org it's about a circle of five female friends who are in their mid-40s and they all get together to drink tequila and scream at each other and I could not recommend it more. It's a delightful read and what is even more delightful is that I bought it from bookshop.org use code ALEX to get 10% off your next order@bookshop.org that is 10% off at bookshop.org with code ALEX. Runaway country is brought to you by Miracle Made. Do you ever wake up sweaty or freezing or just uncomfortable? The temperature in your bedroom can make or break your sleep. That's why I switched to Miracle Made Sheets. They are inspired by NASA technology and they use silver infused temperature regulating fabric to help you sleep perfectly all night long. All that hidden bacteria in regular sheets. It can clog your pores or cause breakouts. Miracle Maid's antibacterial design helps you sleep cleaner and clearer night after night. They feel as good, if not better than sheets you'd find at a five star hotel but without the steep price tag. Smooth, breathable and ridiculously comfortable. So upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. Go to trymiracle.com Alex to try Miracle Made Sheets. Today you'll save over 40% and when you use promo code Alex you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three piece towel set. They make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee there is no risk. That's trymiracle.com Alex Code A L E X at checkout. Thanks to Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. There are a couple people that you can hear from all the time and still it's never enough. And Andrew Weissman is one of those people. And on this topic in particular, there's literally nobody else I want to Talk to other than Michael Fanone, but we're talking to him, too. Andrew, thank you for joining Runaway country again. I think you may be the first repeat guest we've had.
- [25:52]
C
Really?
- [25:53]
A
Yeah.
- [25:53]
C
So you really meant it when you said you wanted to.
- [25:55]
A
I really did. I really did. I was not. That was not just the usual bullshit. That was legit. Speaking, however, of bullshit.
- [26:03]
C
Well, wait, I wanted to say something. I loved coming on your show and there was nobody who I loved more being there in person and live because I want to make sure people understand there was an actual conversation. You were actually, what is it like actively listening? Because sometimes you know that somebody prepares and they have like, they're going to ask you five questions and kind of no matter what you say, the deck question is like question two and then question three, and. Which is fine. I mean, looks like they have things they want to get through. So I'm not really denigrating it, but it's so great when it's just real life and you're just it anyway talking to someone. It's great. Yeah.
- [26:48]
A
Well, like, I really do mean I really did want to talk to you about all of this because I, you know, I think all of our eyeballs have been popped out of our heads for a quite some time in the Trump years, but really, I had to pick mine up from off of the ground when I read about this slush fund. And the more detail we've gotten about the agreement that Trump made with the Department of Justice, which should be renamed, honestly, like in the Department of Injustice. I don't. It doesn't seem sufficient.
- [27:17]
C
And, and it's hard to also think of the language as, oh, it's a settlement agreement. It's an agreement. It's that. Can I just give you my take on this? It's theft. It's just theft. And it's theft of public money, period. The end. And. And then, as you said, this sort of chef's kiss of all of it is the president can't pardon civil offenses. Right. He can only pardon criminal offenses. So you just know that somebody was thinking, okay, how do we. How do we get around that problem? Oh, wait, we're just going to have the Department of Justice issue general civil liability releases. So, oh, they want to look at us for tax liability. Stroke of a pen, that's gone. Oh, wait, they wanted to look at my family members tax liability up. Stroke of a pen, that's gone. Because he doesn't have the pardon power for that. So he's like, oh, I have a way around that this is corruption squared. It's crazy.
- [28:27]
A
Well, it's. It's. I used to call him the mad king, but it's really some Napoleonic. I am the emperor. Like, I will take what I want. This is not a democracy. This is all. This is my fiefdom, and I will take what I want. And there will be no hiding it. I mean, there will be no hiding it. It's amazing to me that this stuff, these agreements, have been posted on the DOJ website that they're not even trying to hide what is so clearly theft,
- [28:52]
C
although they are apparently still going to hide who's going to get the money.
- [28:57]
A
Well, right.
- [28:58]
C
So we don't. We don't know that for sure, but it's certainly not required that they do this all out in the public. But to your point about sort of the, you know, it's all sort of mine and, you know, this sort of French king of it all, which is l' Etos Moi, which was like. Is that Louis xiv, who is like, the state, is me. I was thinking back to the Mar A Lago case, and I think both of us were old enough to remember that case. And the whole defense in that case was, what are you talking about? I didn't take government documents because I am the government. They're mine.
- [29:33]
A
They're my documents.
- [29:34]
C
In the same way, it's like he could have just taken the painting of George Washington off of the White House and been like, I'm hanging it in Mar A Lago, because, wait, it was all mine. And that's why I really think of this as theft. It's like, it isn't all his. It's public fisk money. But it's like he went to Fort Knox, took out the gold, and was like, who wants some? Because I'm gonna. I'm gonna create a commission. I'm gonna say it's. It is an objective commission. I'm gonna appoint the five people. And by the way, if they don't do. If they don't do what I want, I can also replace them and like. Off. Wait, continue the light motif. Off with their head.
- [30:09]
A
Just off with their head. They're out.
- [30:10]
C
Exactly.
- [30:11]
A
Yeah. Perhaps off. I don't know. The beheaded, who knows? But beheadings are not on offer. But certainly these people can be dismissed or fall through a hole in the ground, you know, as soon as Trump decides that their time is up. Okay, let's start at the beginning of this, because this. This starts with this fakacta. That's an official legal term.
- [30:29]
C
Legal it's like you went to law
- [30:31]
A
school, it went to TV law school. Trump files a lawsuit basically with himself with the DOJ, alleging wrongdoing damages, seeking $10 billion in damages for both the leak of his tax returns and, funny you should bring up Mar a Lago, but the federal search at Mar A Lago, looking for documents that they did, in fact, procure, that he did not legally have, was not legally entitled to.
- [30:51]
C
And it was a court. Court authorized search.
- [30:54]
A
Exactly. There was like, even.
- [30:56]
C
Even Judge Cannon couldn't find that that was improper. Even Eileen, that tells. That tells you a lot.
- [31:03]
A
It does. That's the lowest bar there is in the federal judiciary. The judge in that lawsuit case sounded skeptical that the parties were actually adversarial, because they weren't. And it sounded like she was about to toss out the lawsuit. All of a sudden, there's this agreement where Trump drops the lawsuit in exchange for the slush fund and the promise that the IRS is never going to investigate Trump on his taxes or his family members on their taxes. Is that the timing? Is it basically that Trump's lawyers were like, you're about to lose this case. If you want to get anything out of it, you better make an agreement now with the doj.
- [31:38]
C
What I would say is what he lost when the judge made it clear that she was not playing ball, and she was like, you know, there's no adversity here. The plaintiffs and the defendants are on the same side. So, like, there, you know, this is one in the same. And she had cited all these cases for it. And, and good for her for sort of pointing that out, is that if she then said, I'm dismissing this because, you know, that the plaintiff is Donald Trump and the defendant is Donald Trump. And so this is all one and the same, is they lose the fig leaf of saying to the public, oh, this is a settlement agreement. Now, what's crazy is it's not a settlement agreement. So during that, that you have the timing completely right. But while the judge was saying, I want you to brief this issue about adversity, she received various filings, including by sort of what's called amicus, Friends of the court. And I'm not going to get too wonky, but here is the one, the one amicus brief that I thought was. Just tells you how protectural, like, how much this is a fig leaf. And it was a filing by former IRS and DOJ tax people, and they pointed out that the IRS and DOJ are currently fighting claims just like Donald Trump's, including based on the same leaker, the same contractor who had leaked information. And they pointed out that the IRS is fighting. That is because their position is this is entirely bogus for Donald Trump's claim. Here's, like, just one quick defense that that was given up that, that we, the public, have Donald Trump claims. Even if this was a meritorious claim, he was supposed to file his claim within two years of the leak. Well, he missed that by a mile. And so that means he's out. And so, as I've been joking, like, my sort of famous line is, I don't do math in public, but this is the math that I will do in public. $0 is less than 1.776 billion.
- [33:52]
A
Yeah.
- [33:52]
C
I'm going out on a limb there. But that, that tells you what is going on, that this was a pretext that they needed this fig leaf of om settling this. And even that is crazy. Let's assume that Donald Trump could get through all of these legal hurdles. Let's assume that he even was injured a little bit. She hasn't shown by. By some leak of tax returns. And, you know, all. Let's assume that happened, though, and let's give him that he's owed $100,000. Like, what does that have to do with 1.776 billion and being released from ever being liable for your own civil tax liability? So let's assume he has committed tax fraud to the tune of $100 million. Let's just.
- [34:46]
A
Well, yes. And the New York, The New York Times reports that this gets Trump off the hook potentially for as much as $100 million.
- [34:54]
C
Right. But it makes you realize that there's no relationship to, oh, somebody leaked information who is an employee of a contractor. And because of that, you can't look at me for any civil tax liability I ever committed or, or my family committed or my business is committed. There's, there's, there's no connection between that. It is just.
- [35:19]
A
Well, they both have the word tax in them.
- [35:21]
C
Oh, that is such a.
- [35:23]
A
That's it.
- [35:23]
C
It's. Yeah. That is.
- [35:26]
A
They both. Those both use the word tax. And therefore, in Trump's mind, they're connected.
- [35:31]
C
So there's. You try and put a rational grid on this, and you try and sort of like, you know, my world is like, explaining, oh, here's how to, like, legally, what's going on. It is just theft, and it is done with the complicity of Todd Blanche.
- [35:48]
A
Yeah.
- [35:48]
C
Who. And I know everyone says, oh, he's acting as Donald Trump's personal attorney, but he really Is. And I, one thing I've been pointing out to people is when I was a defense lawyer, I mean, everyone knows me as a prosecutor, but I also was defense lawyer for 10 years. I have a continuing duty of loyalty to each and every one of my clients. The fact that your representation ends, sort of like, I'm not going to go to court for them or something like that doesn't end the relationship and your duty ethically, this is, by the way, this is like a given that you have these duties. So this is why there's been public reporting that the head of the ethics office at the Justice Department had said to Todd Blanche and others what they can do and what they can't do and not taking on, in Todd's case, cases that relate to the president. And guess, you know, too late and guess, guess what happened to that guy.
- [36:52]
A
No longer there. Well, and I will say the, the other thing that happened, which got sort of buried in all of this as we talk about the hollowing out and the be. Clowning of the Justice Department is Brian Morrison, who is the top treasury lawyer, resigned on Monday. Like, it's. Other agencies realize the error in all of this. And I think that there is, you know, on one level, it's so understandable, the quiet indignation. Right. Like, you don't want to stick your neck out if you're still quietly trying to preserve what's left of the guardrails. But at a certain point, you know, reasonable people look at this and they're like, this is criminal. This is theft. We got to go.
- [37:27]
C
Yeah. I mean, everyone has their line. It's obvious that's what happened here. Because you don't, you know, the fact that he left without any notice, only after seven months, and he didn't issue any sort of statement. That's the statement. I mean, you know, you know exactly why he left. And that's because, you know, he is defending the IRS cases that are just like Donald Trump's where he's saying they're meritless. And so suddenly they turn around and say, oh, I want you to now say this one's okay. And give up all of these legal arguments. Even he had to be like, well, I can't do that. I mean, this, this is what the, the rule of law means, that likes are treated alike. I mean, that's, that is, that's what
- [38:07]
A
the word rule is. It's applicable to multiple cases.
- [38:11]
C
Exactly.
- [38:12]
A
I'm just pointing out small vocabulary. The, like, words. Some of them have.
- [38:15]
C
Totally. Totally. But I think that's Aristotle, who, like, you know, his thing was, likes need to be treated alike. It's the sort of bedrock of the rule of law. And so this is just the antithesis. And that's why he's like, I can't do this. This is just theft. And again, my, my view of what's going on.
- [38:33]
A
I was stunned by the wording of the DOJ's enforcement order of this slush fund, which says the following for people who haven't read it. Once the funds that would be $1.776 billion are deposited into the designated account, the United States, as in doj, has no liability whatsoever for the protection or safeguarding of those funds, regardless of bank failure, fraudulent transfers, or any other fraud or misuse of the funds. That's like a legalese for we wash our hands of this. Is that what is happening there?
- [39:04]
C
Can I just say, like, you can write that, but that's not the way the law works. I mean, you don't get to say so, you know, I've got, I wrote on a piece of paper that I'm going to kill you, but I just want to write down that I have no legal liability for that. It's just, it's. It doesn't work that way. And by the way, the. I actually think this sort of general release, you know, this sort of idea that, oh, you can't ever sue him for any civil liability, I don't think that's going to work. I think that is the kind of thing that the next administration, if we have a sort of normal administration, Republican or Democratic, but normal, that piece of paper is not going to be worth the paper it's printed on. I mean, someone's going to go, that's completely collusive. A judge is going to have the most complete record in the world to show that. I mean, there's no. For all the reasons we talked about, I mean, I'm not going to continue to get triggered over this. It's like this is, you know, a document that is just. It's as if Donald Trump wrote it himself to say, I just, you know, want the world and no one could ever sue me. Well, I know he doesn't want to be sued. I know he doesn't want to be liable. But this is not the pardon power. This is not something in the Constitution that he has unilateral ability and right to do. This is something that a judge will be able to second guess and a new administration will be able to.
- [40:33]
A
Why? I mean, Todd Blanche is a lawyer. Like, that's coming out of the doj. These, these enforcement orders and the parts of the agreement that you're talking about, the releasing Trump from any tax liabilities is stuff that's coming out of the doj. Like, lawyers wrote that. So what are they doing?
- [40:50]
C
So this would not be the first thing where you're, as you said, you're like, my case. I'd say that my jaw was clattering to the ground. So I think that's two things. One, if you're Todd Blanche and assuming the acumen, I'm not going to be catty, but assuming he's got the right acumen to sort of assess that these are issues, it's sort of like, well, what's the harm? What's the harm of asking for the sun and the moon? And here's the benefit I get to, as a performative thing, get to say, look what I gave you, boss. Like, here's this piece of paper. You know, down the road, kill someone
- [41:26]
A
and you can't be prosecuted for it.
- [41:29]
C
When it, down the road, it, you know, it gets thrown out. That's like, well, after I've gotten the brass ring of the attorney general slot. But, you know, this is one where, you know, he's got to know better.
- [41:41]
A
I mean, it's insane. It's not in the Constitution. They're just making up. I mean, it is like Napoleon crowning himself emperor, like.
- [41:49]
C
But it's very similar to sort of Stephen Miller. I sort of view this as we're just going to do whatever we're going to do and, and who's going to stop us? And we're going to, we're going to do it until we actually have to stop because of either politics or the Supreme Court has said it. And that's one of the last sort of third rails that, that, you know, they are not going to sort of directly violate. And so it's very much we need some fig leaves because we're not just going to up and publicly say we're violating your order. Like, we're not going to say we're violating the law. They need some crazy fig leaf. Even though it's. But it's, but I think it all comes from that. We're going to do whatever the hell we want until someone stops us.
- [42:37]
A
More of my conversation with author and lawyer Andrew Weissman right after this short break. Runaway country is brought to you by Remy I am one of those people that grinds their teeth at night. I think you know my struggle. And maybe you live with someone who has that Struggle. Or perhaps you yourself have that struggle. It is not cool. And the only thing that saves me and gets me back to bed at night or keeps me asleep is my mouth guard. That's probably TMI for you guys, but it is the God's honest. So if you are in need of night guard, you can trust Remy to protect your teeth with custom night guards. You heard me say that custom night guards Remy night guards are the only FDA cleared and clinically tested at home impression kit night guards on the market. Not only do they help prevent tooth damage from grinding, they also help reduce jaw tension and facial muscle strain and improve your sleep quality. You'll get the same professional quality and comfort as a night guard from the dentist for 80% less of the cost. By taking your own impression from the convenience of your home, Remy saves your impressions so you can enjoy the convenience and savings of Remy Club, where they'll ship a new top and bottom night guard to you every six months. Here's how it works. After purchase, your impression kit comes straight to your door. Follow Remy's step by step instructions to get your perfect impression. Then Remy crafts and ships you your custom fit night guard. Get your night guard back and start protecting those teeth. Protect your teeth with Remy by using Code Alex to get 50 off your new night guard with Remy Club. Subscribe and save. That's 50% off at shop r e m I.com Alex with code Alex Thanks Remy for sponsoring this episode. Runaway country is brought to you by Biologica. There is a version of you that sleeps through the night and thinks clearly and actually feels like yourself again. You have not lost her. You just need support that is built for your body. That is why we should all try Biologica. It is a drinkable daily supplement that goes well beyond a vitamin. They've brought together a comprehensive vitamin and mineral foundation with probiotics, electrolytes and grass. Clinically researched botanicals all in one drink. No more juggling a handful of pills trying to cover your bases. Now, what makes it different is that it's not one size fits all. Biologica has three formulas designed for different hormonal life stages. So you're actually supporting your body based on where you are right now. I also love that these are drinkable. It's an effervescent powder that you can mix with water so it absorbs really well. And honestly, it tastes a lot better than choking down a bunch of pills. It is made with clean ingredients, there's no added sugar, and it has been developed alongside women's health experts who actually understand how much women's nutritional needs change over time. Head to biologica.com Alex to get started. Take their quick Hormonal Life Stage quiz to find the formula that's right for you. And right now, subscribers can receive up to 32% off, not 31, 32% off their purchase. Again, make sure to go to biologica.com Alex and get up to 32% off your first subscription order today. When you talk about who could stop this right. There's obviously the question of another administration. There's the question of what happens after the midterms if Democrats regain control of Congress, which actually has the power of the purse, not the president as he would like to think. Two former officers who were involved in the January 6th insurrection, Harry Dunn from US Capitol Police and Daniel Hodges of the DC Police have filed a lawsuit against the fund, the slush fund. They say that the Trump administration, and this is from their filing, has created a slush fund to finance the insurrectionists and paramilitary groups that commit violence in his name. It names the lawsuit as defendants Donald Trump, Todd Blanche and the secretary of the Treasury, Scott Besant. Is there, I mean, what do you think of the lawsuit? What's the likelihood that it goes anywhere?
- [46:32]
C
The issue in the lawsuit is this is now sort of technical stuff which is standing right? It's like who can complain? And this is, this is something that's going to enervate non lawyers, which is all of us are harmed by what's going on. Every single taxpayer is harmed. But there's no such thing as taxpayer standing. In other words, you can't just have any taxpayer in the country saying, well, this harms me because I don't want my money spent on that. Or there's no really good reason to have my money spent on X. And that it's not just a policy decision. It's like a lot, you know, you violated the law and how you were spending my money. And as you said that the people who both could change the law as Congress but also Congress can sue. But it's not just one or two members of Congress. It's a little bit like the same idea of not any taxpayer. You need to have the majority, you need to have it be an action of Congress. And so it is a good reason to go out and vote if you think that this is outrageous because it's not just that the law could be changed, but they're actually then is standing to sue.
- [47:41]
A
And if you don't think it's outrageous, maybe stay Home and don't vote. Just. Just kidding. Just kidding.
- [47:46]
C
No, I'm big on. I'm big on. Everyone should vote.
- [47:49]
A
Fine, fine, fine. Yeah, no, I get it. You're right.
- [47:52]
C
But. But there may be people. There are a lot of inventive lawyers out there, and there may be people who come up with interesting, creative ways to think about standing. And I'll give you one. And it's sort of. It's both serious and half joking. And I should have disclosed this earlier to Alex, so I want to just apologize to you that I didn't disclose one reason that I think what Trump is doing may be personally terrific. So I was the subject of two presidential executive orders, and let's just say they were not flattering. And one of them was directed at Jenner and Block. And one of the main sins of Jenner and Block was that they did something really, truly outrageous, which is they hired me. And that led to it being one of several law firms that were the subject of executive orders. But you'll remember those came out in the beginning of Trump 2.0, and there were 4 of law firms that were subject to four separate executive orders, and each of them challenged it. There were four separate decisions within, I think, one week in front of judges appointed by Democrats and Republicans, and each and every one was struck down as unconstitutional, a violation of the First Amendment. And the one that. Where I was named, Judge Bates, a federal judge, a Republican federal judge, highly respected. And I'm saying this not just because of the decision that he gave, but he said that I was a victim of the executive order because my personal First Amendment rights were violated. So I am going to take that decision which. Which establishes that I am a victim of weaponization of the Trump administration. And it seems like I have a pretty darn good claim now that.
- [49:53]
A
That for the slush fund.
- [49:55]
C
Yeah, exactly. Now I want to. The reason I'm raising this is not just to be sort of funny, although it is funny, if I don't say so myself.
- [50:05]
A
Ironic. It's quite ironic. Although I do think, Andrew, correct me if I'm wrong, the funds are only available to people persecuted under the Biden administration.
- [50:14]
C
No. So Todd Blanch, when he testified the other day, said, anyone. Anyone in the United States can apply, and it's for any weaponization, and it's not political.
- [50:25]
A
Sure.
- [50:25]
C
So, yes, that falls into. Sure.
- [50:28]
A
So my next time I talk to you, you can have your own podcasting studio paid for by the American public.
- [50:34]
C
Oh, yeah, I'll be like. I'll be like, talk to my publicist and you know, it's just exactly. He has no time, he's like jetting off to anyway. So this is my point that to get to something serious about what a creative lawsuit could be and I expect we will see. This is if you have this five member board appointed by Donald Trump and his amanuensis Todd Blanche. And by the way, if they don't do the right thing, as we talked about, off with their heads. So if they are only giving it to the really worthy people who were convicted on January 6, the sort of people like, you know, the sort of Mike Flynn's of the world who already has received over a million dollars even though he said and was found guilty based on his own guilty plea before he then said, no, I didn't mean it when I said I was guilty, so I want my plea back. And that's just sort of what happened in this case. So he got over a million dollars already. So we sort of know where this money is going to go. But when this gets adjudicated, where you have this board giving money only to sort of J. Sixers, but this sort of Jerome Powells, Letitia James, James Comeys of the world who don't, who put in claims to see is there a problem in how this is being done, they will have a claim and there are all sorts of ways to bring that lawsuit and that will go to court.
- [52:01]
A
Wait, can I interrupt you, Andrew? I mean you talked, you mentioned this before and it's unclear based on what the acting attorney general has said. Are we gonna know who even we'll know who doesn't get their claims approved, but are we gonna know who does get their claims approved? I mean, if that information is withheld,
- [52:21]
C
I think we will. So there's a statute called the Freedom of Information act. And you know, people like, you know, our colleagues, MS, now, the New York Times, all sorts of people are gonna be filing for that Congress. It's entitled to know. It's, this is public money. I mean, just to be like this is coming from the public. I mean, I have, by the way, one point on that I'd like to make which is great, but I think we will know that. And also if you are suing to say, well I didn't get this and I think it's because of reason X you are going to be able to say I want discovery to show this disparity. Okay, I wanted to say something about the 1.8 billion and it's, this isn't rock solid and it depends on how A judge rules on this, but this is supposed to be money under, under Donald Trump's theory. In other words, take this as a given. I think it's, it's all B.S. in my view, but this is his theory. I am getting $1.8 billion as a settlement of my claim. And this is money that is, is. That's due to me and the other plaintiffs, my children. And so that's why we're getting it. I then am saying, I want this money to be used for purpose X, as if it's like, you know, I'm going to go buy a house, I'm going to do this. But he's saying, no, I'm going to set up a weaponization fund. But that's sort of secondary. The first reason that's called a settlement agreement, because it's a settlement of Donald Trump's personal claim against the IRS. Is he going to declare the $1.8 billion started to round up. Let's even say, is he going to declare $1.7 billion as income?
- [54:02]
A
Interesting, because just because it's not getting paid to him doesn't mean that he doesn't have to claim it.
- [54:09]
C
Of course.
- [54:09]
A
And thus the IRS can never investigate Donald Trump. I mean, is that why there's. That, that, that second provision that we learned about?
- [54:18]
C
It could be, but that, as I said, I think that provision is not going to hold up. I really think that is just one where a judge can be like that really is not worth the paper it's printed on. I mean, that's just like you writing your own release. A release has to come from somebody who's adverse where there's something at stake, who gave up something for something else. And this is one where the record is going to look so bad. Who would be one of my first witnesses would be the general counsel of the IRS who resigned to say, let's go through the facts that led you to resign.
- [54:51]
A
Blanche brings up. They love pointing to, like, things that were done under Obama or Biden as the predicates for all of this. And he keeps referencing a fund under the Obama White House, which was called the Keeps Eagle case. Do you know about that? I actually don't know about that. And I wonder if there's. Other than the word case, like tax, is there any common thread binding what Trump is doing to what Obama did?
- [55:17]
C
Their short answer is no, but there, there is one way that it is related and there's an irony there, but this is why it's total bullshit to. That's like another technical Term you learn in law school.
- [55:32]
A
Yeah.
- [55:33]
C
To why this is just, just nonsense. There is nothing wrong when there's a real case with a real harm, where there's real liability to having a settlement. That, that, that is what happens. The, the problem here is that there is no real case and there is no real settlement. And you have the same. Donald Trump has said himself that he is on both sides of this case. I mean, when we brought the case, he said, it's just funny. I'm suing myself. I mean, he was quite aware of that issue. And that is just not. You can't then point to a real case. So what he, what Todd Blanche was saying is, well, I'm pointing to a different aspect of that case. And he said, I'm pointing to the aspect that not all the money in that case eventually made it to the plaintiffs because it was, some of it was given to sort of causes that would help plaintiffs and people who have the same sort of interests as plaintiffs. In other words, it wasn't sort of a direct, okay, these people were harmed, they get the money. And that piece is similar to what's going on here. But again, it's sort of irrelevant except for this little irony. When Attorney General Sessions, the first Attorney General under Donald Trump, became the Attorney general, one of the first things he did, it's a September 2017 memo, is he said, no more. We are not doing those settlements. We do not want to see settlements being used to benefit causes or people who are not these sort of actual plaintiffs or direct victims. And so he was like, we can't. We're not doing this anymore. So the irony of Todd Blanche then saying, oh, we're looking back to a case that we publicly denigrated. Yeah, because it was essentially the concern was, oh, it's creating sort of a slush fund and you're using this to help these people.
- [57:40]
A
So it's ever since Beauregard Sessions, who now lives in a grandfather clock down at Mar a Lago, we miss ya. I can't believe I'm even saying that I'm not, but wow, the irony. More of my conversation with Andrew in just a moment. But first, tickets for CrookedCon 2026 are on sale now. Come hang with us this November in Washington, D.C. for live shows and panels, meetups and opportunities to learn whatever lessons we'll need. Post midterms. Crooked's Friends of the Pod subscribers get a subscriber only price. So if you want a subscription loaded with exclusives and a discounted Crooked Con ticket, be sure to join Friends of the Pod. There will also be more friend of the Pod perks at the all day at crookedcon. Get all the info you need@crookedcon.com we can't wait to see there. Runaway country is brought to you by Airstore. I got the Iristore Elite and let me tell you guys, this feels like the cutting edge of the 21st century Red light therapy. You've heard about it. You can just sit there as I do, watching TV or more realistically folding someone else's clean laundry, probably my children's, and like do good things for your scalp. Do good things for your hair. Every time I go to the doctor or the physical therapist, they're like red light therapy. Red light therapy. Red light therapy does feel like the science of the 21st century, both in terms of healing and stimulating. So if it's going to give me gorgeous long Rapunzel locks, I am all in. And with iRestore's Memorial Day savings event running from April 28 through May 26, it is the perfect time to upgrade your hair and skincare routine. Irestore has been leading the way in red light therapy for over two decades, helping shape the category with clinically backed devices trusted by over 500,000 customers worldwide, making this event a celebration of the community that continues to grow with them. Irestore is kicking off their Memorial Day Savings event with some huge discounts on their red light therapy devices. Right now you can save on customer favorites like the Irestore Elite helmet, Womp Womp and the Illumina face mask. Just head to irestore.com and use code Alex to take advantage of the sale that is alexirestore.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Give your hair and skin the upgrade they deserve so you can feel confident and refreshed.
- [59:59]
B
Save on Family Essentials at Safeway and Albertsons this week at Safeway and Albertsons, enjoy eight piece double breaded famous chicken fried or baked dark meat featuring four legs and four thighs for just $5.99 each. Member price available in the deli and sweet red cherries are $2.97 per pound limit 6 pounds. Member price with digital coupon plus 24 ounces. Selected varieties of fresh cut fruit bowls are $5 each. Visit safewayoralbertsons.com for more deals and ways to save.
- [60:30]
A
You're on a GLP1, but now you're wondering how do I manage my side effects? What do I eat to stay strong? Because reaching your weight loss goals can take more than meds that's where Weight Watchers Med plus comes in. Get access to trusted experts, food plans that work with your body and how coaching to keep you on track, plus access to GLP1 medication. Get started@weight watchers.com all medical services are provided through our affiliated medical group, Weight Watchers Clinic medications require eligibility and prescription. Individual results may vary. See site for more details. Okay, I have one more question before we talk about your book, Liars Kingdom. The timing on all this remains unclear. There are lawsuits being filed. There's an election in November. The, the, the numbers that we got this week in terms of Trump's approval rating and Democrats advantage on a generic ballot are, are equally. Eyeball dropping on the floor. Jaw. Jaw shattering.
- [61:24]
C
Yeah.
- [61:25]
A
If Congress is held of the power in both houses, let's just say both for the sake of argument by Democrats, they can stop this, right?
- [61:34]
C
Absolutely. They can have hearings, they can make things public. I mean, one, they. So they can bring a lawsuit on this. I mean, that's the number one thing. And one of the advantages of that is they can have a court that exposes this. They can also actually pass a law which, I mean, I think Congress right now views what's going on as an actual violation of the, what's called the Anti Deficiency Act. As you said, Congress has the power of the purse. The government has to use the money as directed by Congress. Obviously there was no pot of money directed to paying out this, you know, $1.776 billion in this way. But they also, if there's any question can pass a law that says no. And you know, this is the kind of thing I, again, I'm, I'm a lawyer, not a political analyst, but like, to me, the more attention that's paid to something like this, the better. And that's something where I think one of the things that the Republicans are very good at is being dogs with a bone. And so it's like, you know, Hillary's emails. Hillary's emails, no matter what's going on in the world, it's like the answer to every question that you asked me, Alex, is Hillary's emails.
- [62:47]
A
Totally.
- [62:48]
C
And so they're just very good at keeping people focused on the issue that they think is important. And by the way, I did think there was an issue with Hillary's emails, but it all looks so ridiculously quaint right now, given that not only is it going on up one side and down the other, people in the White House we're seeing so much, so much worse. But I digress. So if The House and the Senate changes. There are real remedies that can be brought to bear so that this does not go on. I mean, this is so antithetical to
- [63:22]
A
the rule of law and it's politically, I think, disastrous. Which gets, which is a nice. As we talk about politics and the art of political deceit, let us talk about Liars Kingdom, which has the best and most inspiring subhead ever. How to Stop Trump's Deceit and Save America. If you're not reading this, this is a good week to start. Everyone. The alarm bells are ringing. In fact, the alarm bells may have broken the sound barrier. There it is.
- [63:51]
C
There it is. You know, there's so. It's really interesting, I know that you were writing a book too, and I'm actually. Folks should know. I'm not gonna. We'll do this again. But it's so good.
- [64:03]
A
Oh, God bless you. It's available for pre order now. It's called the Steal. Four Right Wing Hardliners, One Republican Presidency and the Raid on America's Courts. Okay, let's talk about your book, though.
- [64:14]
C
Okay. One of the things, and a friend of mine sort of reminded me, said, andrew, just remember, the core of what is going on with this slush fund is to continue and to perpetrate the whitewashing of January 6 that they claim that they are. The quote from the President and from the Department of Justice is, that was a grave national injustice.
- [64:43]
A
Yes, these are people.
- [64:44]
C
Do you remember where you were? I would ask people. I mean, I remember turning on my TV and it sort of rocked me to my core to see the defiling of our democracy. It was so upsetting. And then it continued and continued and continued. And that was not even at a time when I saw and knew what was happening to the police, the Capitol Police, who were trying to stop it. And I know you're going to talk to people who were the true victims here, but that is one of the things that I really am trying to deal with here, which is core foundational lies by politicians, whether they're candidates or they're in office. And why it is that we treat those lies so differently then we treat so many other lies. In my former life as a prosecutor, I was involved in prosecuting the leaders of the Enron Corporation, Jeff Skilling and Ken Lay and others. And they lied about the internal state of affairs at Enron. And that was viewed as a lie to the shareholders. And so they were held criminally liable and they were held civilly liable. And that's lying about stock. If you lie. Like Rudy Giuliani was found to have lied about Shay Moss and Ruby Friedman. The Georgia election workers defamation law can lead to paying tens of millions of dollars. Eugene Carroll. The same thing with respect to our sitting president. Roger Stone lied to Congress was found by a jury. Paul Manafort admitted he lied to doj. He lied to. To FBI agents, he lied to banks. I mean, again, all out of his mouth, but those are all ways in which we deal with lies. Or if anyone here has a prescription and has ever gotten some medication, you can't just say this cures cancer. No, there are limitations on what you can say because you can limit false speech, not opinions. But false speech is something that we limit. And what I was thinking about was, why is it, when it comes to an actual lie about the ballot box, something core we're not talking about, Oh, I did really well at the University of Pennsylvania. Or the crowd size was big. I mean, let's say you take a core foundational. There was material fraud in the 2020 election. No, there wasn't. There is no evidence of that. Why is it that we don't do anything in that area and we just say, let it come out in the wash? The answer to false speech is truthful speech. Well, that's not what we do when it comes to just a share of stock. And so why are we treating those two differently? That was sort of the genesis of my thinking about how do we build a better mousetrap? It's our 250th anniversary of this country.
- [67:57]
A
Sammy. Sesquintennial. Yes.
- [67:59]
C
And we. We need to. I'm glad you said that and not me. Anyway, that is my stump speech in terms of, like, that's what I sort of was trying to focus on.
- [68:09]
A
And I will say, you know, the Trump years have exposed the holes and the flaws in our democratic institutions. Even the slush fund. Nobody's tried to do this before.
- [68:19]
C
Right.
- [68:20]
A
But, like, Trump has exposed a great. A great weakness here. Both, you know, a kind of existential weakness in the Republican Party. A real question about separation of powers. Like, why does the legislative branch exist if the president can just appropriate funds as he sees fit, and then also the ways in which he's just manifestly destroyed the independence of the Department of Justice. And, like, I think that it's a great. It's a terrible moment for the country, but it's also a learning moment. And the hatches need to be battened down once Trump is out of office.
- [68:53]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think what he has Exposed is the fissures, the things that, that are the framers of the Constitution. I'm not faulting them. It's like the world has changed and moved on. They did not.
- [69:09]
A
Don't tell, don't tell John Roberts that, though.
- [69:11]
C
Yes, exactly. And so it is, it is one gift that we are given, which is that we can see all of the ways in which our system works now based on norms and not based on enforceable laws and structures. That is sort of the key thing I've been thinking about. It sort of helps that, you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm an institutionalist, I think about structures. I know they're not always the, they're not foolproof. And it's never going to be the answer because people are in those structures. But we do need to figure out ways to sort of harden the target so that we're less susceptible because Trump is, is eventually be gone. But there is going, there are going to be a sort of a zillion mini me's because they're going to emulate a formula that they see worked. And so this, we cannot put our heads in the sand if we, you know, let's assume that your normal administration comes in Democratic or Republican, like, you know, just a normal rule of law administration. We cannot fool ourselves into thinking, oh, let's just pretend this never happened.
- [70:25]
A
Yeah.
- [70:25]
C
And so this is trying to sort of.
- [70:27]
A
You mean the Merrick Garland playbook. I'm sorry, that's me.
- [70:30]
C
No, you know that I have said the same thing, which is the Merrick Garland Joe Biden playbook. And you know what? They tried it. It did not work.
- [70:39]
A
No.
- [70:40]
C
And you know, I did not think that was the right call at the time, but I can understand that. But you, you cannot sit there and say, let's look at, look forward, let's not look backwards. Let's just sort of show people that institutions work. What we see is that there are structural failings. And so one of the things, God knows, this is not the only answer, but I was like, why are we allowing people to lie to us about something so fundamental? And so one quick thing, in case you think this is sort of just so unrealistic from pie in the sky, is I looked around the globe, which, by the way, I'm a big fan of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and she was a huge fan of looking at other countries. I know what you're going to say, but let's just focus on her in terms of her jurisprudence. And she was, she was like, you know, I'M not saying that you take whole hog what's happening in other countries and transplant it, but you can learn from them and you can learn what to do and what might work. And you can also learn, learn what doesn't work. And so I looked around the globe for other models. England, if you lie about a political opponent, their law for decades is you can't hold that office. You're pulled out. In Brazil, Bolsonaro, who I have to tell you, I'll tell you a quick antidote. I'm writing this, this chapter on Brazil and sort of the foreign, foreign model. And as that's going on, what happens, and I see on the news is that Donald Trump is attacking the judges who found that Bolsonaro had engaged in an insurrection and had the other people know about the engaging and insurrection criminal offense. Before that trial, he had already been found to have lied about fraud in the election. Sound familiar?
- [72:33]
A
Yeah.
- [72:34]
C
And you know what the remedy is? Under Brazilian law, if you lie about the election, barred from office, Boom. New York law. The states, in the United States, the many, many states in our union deal with this. In New York, one of the funnier statutes is a statute that says there are two reasons that if you are holding public office and you. There are two ways in which you are automatically removed. One is death. And I was like, I don't really think you needed a statute to do
- [73:11]
A
that because no Weekend at Bernie's in Albany.
- [73:14]
C
Right. I was like, I think someone else took care of removing you from office in that situation. I'm not really sure you needed the law also. But in any event, the law says that if you die, you're out of office and a whole lot of other places. And the other is if you're convicted of a felony, automatic removal done out. And so I was sort of looking at this going, why are we not sort of protecting ourselves from intentional falsehoods?
- [73:49]
A
We need to, quite obviously, I mean, maybe it took this crisis of this administration to prove that point.
- [73:56]
C
Yeah. And you know, I think I'm enough of a lawyer to know, and I do address sort of risks of what I'm saying and downsides of what I'm saying. It's like any, this is, by the way, in any good organization, any policy person does that you're thinking about what are the pluses and minuses. But I do think that this is one where if, even if people sort of say, I disagree with, I don't think this is a good idea. I hope people take from this that we need to have sort of big, bold ideas. I mean, we really have to think our way out of this. And again, I do think the fact that it's the 250th anniversary the best way to sort of, if you love your country and you want to see it exist for 250more years, this is the moment that we sort of owe it to our heritage and also to our children to figure our way out of this.
- [74:54]
A
I think that's really moving. Other people think that the best way to celebrate the 250th anniversary of America is by having an indie drag race through the streets of Washington, D.C. in a UFC fight on the South Lawn. But potato, potato, Andrew. Potato, potaho. Well, we're looking Forward to Volume 2 of Liars Kingdom because the kingdom and the lies both continue. Andrew, congratulations on the book.
- [75:19]
C
Thank you, thank you, thank you for
- [75:20]
A
being such a wealth of information on all of this. And I don't know, even when you're talking about alarming developments, I find myself very soothed when you break it down and offer a potential legal recourse at the end of the rainbow. So I'm always grateful to you. Thank you for being our first two time guest on Runaway Country. There's a commemorative sweatshirt coming your way at some point once we make them. And good luck. Good luck. You will smash the New York Times Bestseller list. I look forward to seeing it in the paper on Sunday.
- [75:55]
C
Sounds good. Thank you so much.
- [75:59]
A
That is our show for this week. Please do not forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. And if you're not sick of me yet, you can pre order my new book, the Steel Four Right Wing Hardliners, One Republican Presidency and the Raid on America's Courts, which is coming out this September. There's also always my substack, how the hell with Alex Wagner. I encourage you to subscribe. Last but not least, if you've been impacted directly by the Trump administration and its policies, please send us an email or a one minute voice note@runawaycountryrooked.com and we may be in touch to feature your story. Huge thank you to everyone who's written in already. Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Ilona Minkowski, Emma Ilech, Frank, Hayley Jones and Anisha Banerjee, with help from Eric Schutte, Kenny Moffitt and Charlotte Landis. Production support from Ben Hethcote, Katie Long, Adrienne Hill, and Matt De Groat. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. With American Home Shield, you can now video chat with live repair experts for help with home fixes over the phone. American Home Shield don't worry. Be warranty. Visit ahs.com listen for 20% off any
- [77:38]
C
plan available as a benefit with select plans.
- [77:41]
A
Mom, I'm heading out. You're wearing shorts, it's freezing. And where's your coat? I'm good. Bye, Mom.
- [77:49]
B
Does your tween care more about looking cool than staying warm?
- [77:53]
C
Time to talk to their doctor about
- [77:54]
A
HPV vaccination to help protect them against
- [77:57]
C
certain HPV related cancers before exposure.
- [77:59]
B
For most people, HPV HPV clears on its own, but for those who don't
- [78:03]
A
clear the virus, it can cause certain
- [78:05]
B
cancers later in life.
- [78:06]
A
Why wait to vaccinate?
- [78:07]
C
Learn more@hpv.com sponsored by Merck.