← Runaway Country with Alex Wagner
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- [00:00]
Alex Wagner
Runaway countries brought to you by honeylove. I was lucky enough to get serviced some Honey Love goods, including a miraculous bra. You heard me say that, right? Miraculous bra. It's super comfortable. Support. It looks good under a T shirt, which is the true test of any bra. I gotta say, I'm all in. I'm all in for it. I did not think you could have a bra without underwire that was going to give you the look that you need in a T shirt. And boom, I found it in my mail. Honey Love, Are you kidding me? No, I'm not kidding you. All right, so honeylove, if you did not know, is an independent female founded brand. All Honey Love products are intelligently designed by women who actually wear them. It's an important caveat, including the founder Betsy, who's highly involved in the development of each product. HoneyLove bras are supportive and wire free, as I mentioned, thanks to bonding technology that lifts without underwire. You do deserve a bra that is lightweight and comfortable without sacrificing support. You do. And looks good in a T shirt. A great bra is the foundation for any great outfit. I mean, I honestly couldn't agree more. Start Every outfit with HoneyLove and elevate your style. Honey Love shapewear is designed to move with you, so say goodbye to that pesky shapewear that rolls down as soon as you hit the dance floor, which is where I spend most of my time. Honeylove shapewear uses targeted compression to enhance your curves instead of squeeze them. It is designed to work with your body and not against it. Honeylove products feature lingerie, inspired design details that you'll want to show off and high quality fabrics that feel like a dream against the skin. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off at honeylove@honeylove.com Alex that is honeylove.com Alex after you check out they will ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Experience the new standard in comfort and support with HoneyLove.
- [02:04]
Claire McCaskill
Quick question.
- [02:05]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted
- [02:08]
Erin Ryan
if you said yes to both. Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan.
- [02:11]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
And I'm Alyssa Mastromonico and we're the
- [02:14]
Erin Ryan
hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture and not losing their minds in the process.
- [02:20]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
We break down the news, call out the nonsense and spotlight the women actually fighting back on Capitol Hill, in classrooms and everywhere. The stakes are high.
- [02:29]
Erin Ryan
It's sharp, honest, analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero hand holding.
- [02:35]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
Listen to hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube.
- [02:42]
Alex Wagner
Hi everyone. Hello from the world where Brent crude oil is currently $108 a barrel up from a pre war bargain of $73 a bar. And the President of the United States has lost complete control of the war he started by choice. But don't tell that to Trump's Secretary of Defense or war, or whatever it is that Pete Hagseth does.
- [03:04]
Claire McCaskill
The President has his hand on the
- [03:06]
Wes Bryant
throttle and will decide ultimately when they've been reached that serve the purposes of
- [03:10]
Alex Wagner
the United States of America. American interests first hand on the throttle, eh? The plan, quite clearly, is no plan. And that is the way it has been from the beginning of this. Otherwise, Trump and his cabinet might have considered that this war would disrupt the global oil supply and drive up gas prices here at home, which have now gone up by over a dollar per gallon on average. But American taxpayers are paying a lot of bills for Trump's bloody excursion. The war's first week alone cost them over 11 billion. How's that for affordability? Because the plan is no plan. Trump's favorability has continued to Sink. According to YouGov polling, independents who disapproved of Trump's war by 53% last week now disapprove of Trump's war by 63% this week. They are getting the same news that President Trump is this is a deadly conflict with no ultimate goal and no clear end insight. And those are all things that happen when there is no plan. 13American service members have died. Israeli strikes have killed over 800 people in Lebanon and displaced nearly a million more. And over 1300 people have been killed in Iran, including 175 people in the bombing of Shajara Tayebi Elementary School in the city of Minab, over 100 of them. For elementary school students, it's the deadliest accidental American attack in decades. Perhaps if there had been a plan, the architects of this strike would have had the time and resources to see that the school was walled off, as in completely separate from a nearby Iranian naval base that was probably the US's intended target. Or they might have noticed that the school's soccer field was clearly visible from satellite imagery and has been for the last 10 years. Maybe they would have noticed that if there was a plan. Or, you know, maybe not. Because if you look around at the Pentagon these days, there are a lot more empty chairs than there were before Trump took office, including seats that were Once filled by trained personnel whose jobs were to protect civilians from American military activities. As ProPublica puts it, the US built a blueprint to avoid civilian war casualties. Trump officials scrapped it. So not only was there no plan, the people who could have helped craft a less deadly plan were all gone. From the market turmoil to the rising gas prices to the staggering civilian deaths, it is abundantly clear that Donald Trump put no thought into his strategy for this war. But the more we find out about what's actually been happening inside this administration, the more it's apparent that not caring about collateral damage, making a distinct decision not to care about any of it, is actually the only strategy that Trump has had this entire time. I'm Alex Wagner, and this week on Runaway country, we're looking at the ways the Trump administration almost intentionally brought this misery upon the country and the global community.
- [06:24]
Wes Bryant
Analyzing the strike from the outset, and, you know, from the first information I had, it was very clear to me what one this was. A deliberately targeted compound had to be conducted either by the US Or Israel. This is a very clear case of misidentification. I knew that immediately.
- [06:42]
Alex Wagner
That is retired Master Sergeant Wes Bryant. Until last spring, Wes was working as a senior advisor in the Pentagon's Civilian Protection center of Excellence, a program created in 2022 to reduce civilian harm during defense operations. But as Trump's cronies began to gut his department, Wes felt he needed to speak out. He published op EDS in the Boston Globe and the Washington Post. The Pentagon retaliated by putting him on leave, and Wes resigned from his post shortly thereafter. According to reporting by ProPublica, WES program, which was designed to protect the lives of innocents, now essentially exists in name only. Only Congress can formally end the program. So it lives on basically as a ghost. Pentagon officials say the program was redundant since civilian protection is already integrated into its work. But try telling that to the families of the over 100 schoolchildren who were killed in South Iran. And then later in the show, we'll be talking to former senator and current Ms. Now analyst Claire McCaskill about whether the mounting tally of dead and increasing economic calamity and global humiliation and otherwise unmitigated nonsense coming from the Trump administration might be enough to both stop the war and and stop Trump.
- [08:00]
Claire McCaskill
I do live in a state that supported Donald Trump by big numbers, so I am exposed to some of the rationale they have and the defensiveness they feel about defending Donald Trump and frankly, their vote for Donald Trump. There has been more of I screwed up in the last Two weeks than I have ever heard.
- [08:27]
Alex Wagner
But as we do on this show, we start with someone who can offer us firsthand perspective on all of this. Retired Master Sergeant Wes Bryant. Welcome to Runaway Country.
- [08:37]
Wes Bryant
Thank you for having me.
- [08:39]
Alex Wagner
So I'm very curious to understand your experience in the Department of Defense. You used to work for a program inside DoD called the Civilian Protection center of Excellence. And last year, the Washington Post reported that the center included dozens of staffers worldwide who worked alongside commanders to refine targeting operations, along with a center overseen by the army that outlined best practices and training for military leaders to follow. Sounds like a useful center. I'm just gonna say it was subsequently gutted and basically effectively shut down. You no longer work there. Your position isn't there anymore. It's been hollowed out by Secretary Hegseth. For people who don't understand what was happening. Let's just break it down in layman's terms. I mean, first of all, what does it mean to refine targeting operations?
- [09:33]
Wes Bryant
Well, it means, I mean, first and foremost, we can point to the strike on a school in Iran.
- [09:40]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [09:41]
Wes Bryant
On the outset of the war, it means preventing such tragedies as that from even occurring in the first place, or at least mitigating the incidents of cases of what we call civilian harm or civilian casualties.
- [09:56]
Alex Wagner
Let's talk about the strike, because I immediately thought, you know, when that news came, it was like, how the hell could this have happened? When you first heard about the strike, given the experience and the expertise you have, what was your first thought?
- [10:11]
Wes Bryant
I was analyzing the strike from the outset. And, you know, from the first information I had, it was very clear to me. One, this was a deliberately targeted compound, had to be conducted either by the US Or Israel. Of course, we've figured out since it was the US Two, it had all the hallmarks of a case of misidentification. It was clear to me right off the bat that, okay, we've got a Iranian Navy compound here, a missile headquarters, and they characterize what we call characterize when you're talking about building targets. This school that was adjacent to it as part of this broader compound. Very clearly. And I've seen that occur, you know, in the past. I've never seen a situation this tragic come out of it. But this is this a very clear case of misidentification. I knew that immediately.
- [11:04]
Alex Wagner
How does that happen? I mean, the only reporting we have, and it's been scant, is that they were basically using outdated information. But, like, how could this. The Civilian Protection center and the work that you guys were doing, could that have helped perhaps mitigate this, if not outright prevent it?
- [11:22]
Wes Bryant
There's several avenues here. There's several perspectives to look at this from. One is that the Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Enterprise. I know that's a big clunky kind of acronym. It's called chimer. That was what was created at the Pentagon under First Secretary Esper. That's what under the first Trump administration and then codified into law under Congress with Secretary Austin under President Biden in 2022. And we'll get to that later. But of course, it was gutted under. Under Hegseth. I mean, near immediately, what we had there was the standup of an enterprise, an institution, an architecture, DOD y that was working toward really getting better at true precision warfare. And when I say precision warfare, I'm not talking, you know, the way that Hegseth speaks precision warfare. He seems to believe that precision warfare equals that you're using thousands and thousands of precision guided munitions. Well, precision warfare equals using minimal force to achieve strategic objectives and precisely targeting enemy targets and safeguarding the civilian populace, which we frankly don't see in Iran. That's really the entire impetus for what this civilian harm mitigation and response architecture was. And it was based off a. You know, consider the timing. About 2022 is when it was put into action. We were coming off the war on terror. Military leadership, even lawmakers, were conducting look backs on the war on terror. What did we do right? What did we do wrong? A military force? How we go about mitigating civilian harm, civilian casualties, damage to civilian infrastructure. How we go about actually responding to and assessing and investigating that harm? You know, look at the withdrawal from Afghanistan and the fact that, you know, Secretary Mattis insisting that this was a strike on a high value ISIS target. And it took an excellent investigation by the New York Times, by the way, to tell the military, the US Military, that no, you actually hit civilians and children here. We were created to stop that from ever happening.
- [13:45]
Alex Wagner
I mean, I can only imagine emotionally. First of all, I think the slaughter of 150, roughly children in school is a profound moral stain on our country. And just as citizens, this is being done in our name. But for someone who literally was working inside the nerve center to prevent something like that, like this happening, and then was subsequently, you know, effectively pushed out, and the place you worked was gutted, and the work, the essential work that you were doing ended. How did it feel to you to see what has happened in the aftermath of the effective closure of the center. I mean, how did it feel when you read about what happened to those children?
- [14:31]
Wes Bryant
You know, I've been doing analysis on Israel's genocide in Gaza since this current conflict in Gaza began. And all of that's hard to deal with. You know, I've dealt with this in my entire, you know, 20 plus year career in the military. I've seen a lot of death and tragedy. I mean I'd say this is among the worst. When you not only getting word that a school was hit, that's bad enough. And then when the word came down first it was, you know, up to 60, then 80, then 100, then now up to 170 young schoolgirls at the school on top of their teachers and other civilians. And it's just frankly, you know, heart wrenching. And to see the response from this administration, from not just the administration, you know, on the political side of the house, but senior command in the military, you know, the Central Command commander, General Kane, the Joint Chiefs and then so called Secretary of War Hegseth to not only acknowledge, fail to acknowledge the tragedy in and of itself, I mean they truly don't seem to care in their, in their response. It's more of a defense mechanism. Oh, we don't target civilians. Next question. But to not even be able to tell us at this point what the US targeted, whether or not we dropped bombs or missiles there, completely unacceptable. And these were all problems that we were approaching from this civilian harm mitigation and response enterprise. Even if you take the center that I was a part of, if you take that out of the equation, the strike was a violation of fundamental practices and doctrine.
- [16:15]
Alex Wagner
And yet in the days that followed the strike, and I would say more broadly in every day since this war began, we get these just garbled answers from both the President and his cabinet secretaries and the commanders leading this war about what the targets are, who did what. But specifically as it pertains to the strike on the girls school. I just wanna refresh everybody's memory of how the President has mangled the response to all of this. Let's just take a listen to his explanations. In the days that followed. A new report says the military investigation has found it was the United States that struck the school.
- [16:54]
Pete Hegseth
I don't know about it. Based on what I've seen, that was done by Iran.
- [17:00]
Wes Bryant
Is that true Mr. Hegseth?
- [17:01]
Alex Wagner
It was Iran who did that?
- [17:02]
Wes Bryant
We're certainly investigating, still investigating, but the only side that targets civilians is Iran.
- [17:09]
Pete Hegseth
But tomahawks are used by others, as you know Numerous other nations have Tomahawks. They buy them from us. But I will certainly whatever the report shows, I'm willing to live with that report.
- [17:23]
Alex Wagner
Okay. I mean, you said that you could tell immediately that it was a case of mistaken targeting. What did you think of the sort of varying explanations that this was all Iran's fault, that Iran's the only ones that target civilians? What did you make of that from the White House?
- [17:39]
Wes Bryant
You know, it sounds like the kind of propaganda that authoritarian dictators put out to deliberately lie. Regardless of what kind of enemy Iran is, before this war even started, what kind of government Iran is, we are supposed to be the honest ones. We're supposed to be the good ones. This is literal propaganda that's being spread. And in this case, just to essentially save face and try to make the claim that somehow the US Was not responsible here, it's frankly disgusting. Good analysts will always rule out. One of the first things I was looking at in this strike before all the other amplifying information came out, was whether or not this could have been an Iranian ballistic missile that went short. Very improbable. And we see now very likely not. And then to state this blatant lie about Iran having Tomahawks, I would return that, you know, the Tomahawk missile is a highly export controlled weapon. I mean, it's critical in our inventory. And very few nations are given, given it. Look at the, the arguments that we had internally in our government over giving Tomahawks to, even to Ukraine in the fight against Russia. So I would say that, you know, if you're saying, as the president, Iran has Tomahawks, you better answer to the American people as to how they got those Tomahawks. But, but we know that's just not true. Of course.
- [19:09]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. We also know he doesn't answer to the American public. But I digress. There is, there are sort of like two fundamental moral questions embedded in all of this carnage. One is, could the administration, could the commander of chief, can he do a better job of protecting civilian lives? And then does he want to? And you sort of touched on the ways in which Secretary Hegseth has brought with him a different spirit to the Department of Defense. Right. He decides to close the Civilian Protection center because he wants to focus on lethality. And he has been all about what is what he terms a warrior ethos at the Department of Defense. How does that sit with the people who are actually tasked with carrying this stuff out? I'm sure you still have people on the inside or People who were once on the inside, now on the outside, but generally. Can you give me some insight as to what the culture change and the shift and the deprioritization on saving civilian lives means for the people who are actually tasked with, like, carrying out missile strikes and actually waging the war?
- [20:21]
Wes Bryant
Well, I say. I'll say there's a twofold answer there. And one, there is that population. And I believe, and I very much hope that it's a small minority, you know, that are the headsets that are rallying behind us because the military is comprised of the American population. And so just like there's those in the American population that support any and everything this administration does, there's those in the military. Those were always the kind of the types, just like Hegseth himself. These were the types that, in my experience, when they kind of reared their. Their head of ugliness and lawlessness, you know, the chain of command and the leadership culture in the military and the law in the military, tended to suppress them, you know, put them back where they belong. You know, you're out of line here that these aren't the standards that we uphold. Just like what happened with Hegseth and his removal from National Guard duties. You know, he was removed years back, and he should have remained removed from any military duty. And so now you have that small population that. That is emboldened. We have to face that. And some of those could be senior commanders, but we have the other rest of the population of the US Military, which I have to insist is most of it. That in large part, a lot of them are incredibly mortified. We've seen a lot of reports of people having internal threads, even senior commanders, senior leaders, internal communications, constantly just making fun of Hegseth and all of his exploits. That's. That's too light of a term, but, you know, and then there's that portion of people who are. Who are just incredibly, you know, mortified and ashamed with how the military is not only being portrayed to the American public and to the globe, but even worse, how it's being utilized now. I mean, our military is. Our military forces are. Our people are being used as pawns. I blame senior military leadership. That's not stopping it. That's either aligned with what's happening, or they're just on their knees, complicit and scared because of all the firings. And of course, I blame Hegseth and above him. But as far as the rest of the military force, you know, I'm just. I feel really bad thinking about how it must feel to be wearing a uniform for a lot of them right.
- [22:58]
Alex Wagner
Now, I want to put this in context, because when we talk about people not following illegal or immoral orders. Right. First of all, it bears mentioning that General Dean Kaine, who's the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and US Navy Vice Admiral Brad Cooper, two men who were leading this war in Iran, were in support of the Civilian Protection center that you used to be involved with. Right. And totally just stood by as the program was gutted and have done Trump's work overseas. And, you know, at the end of last year, Senators Mark Kelly and Alyssa Slotkin and a few congresspeople, among others, made a video urging people in the armed services to not to follow illegal or immoral orders. Right. It was a very strong statement. And the president responded by effectively accusing these Congress people of sedition and suggesting that they needed to die, effectively issuing a death threat. The back and forth has continued. There have been lawsuits, there's been. Trump is very angry that anyone would resist or be, you know, given the advice to resist orders coming from the White House, no matter whether they were legal or not. Do you think people can still speak out inside the military when they see something going wrong? I mean, given where the leadership is at and where the commander, chief is at and the explicit threat environment directed at people who step out of line, as far as this president's concerned,
- [24:34]
Wes Bryant
absolutely not. I know firsthand from people I know across, across the force that are still in some people in senior positions, both, you know, in the operational forces and at the Pentagon, that there is this incredible climate of fear, you know, even to the point of I've gotten messages like, hey, I love what you're saying and doing and what you're putting out there. Just let you know, I support you, Keep, keep going. But I'm not even going to react to what you put out on social media. I'm not even going to put a little like. Because people are looking at our personal social media pages and seeing just, even what we react to.
- [25:14]
Alex Wagner
Wow.
- [25:14]
Wes Bryant
I mean, that's. That's authoritarianism, even for military personnel, you know, who are restrained in some manner as far as their. Their speech, their public speech. But, yeah, this is just unprecedented. And then the Trump administration operates kind of, kind of in a gray area. And I'll say that as far as the law goes, though, most if not all of the military operations that have been initiated under this administration have been unlawful per either or either or both international law and US Law. However, you know, we'll take the drug boat, so called narco terrorism, drug smugglers that the administration began hitting in the Caribbean and then the Pacific. When you're an operational task force and you're tasked with carrying out a strike against a now a narco, what's coded as a narco terrorist and a drug smuggler, you at least know fundamentally, okay, this is kind of a bad guy in some respects, a drug smuggler. The administration isn't asking you to here's a village of women and children, go drop a ball on it. That right at the operational level, anybody should rightly say, no, that is illegal. But in this case, it's task force lawyers up to the combatant command, up to the Secretary of Defense and the President himself saying, don't listen to what everybody else is saying out there. This is completely legal. And that's your order. Kill this guy now. So even though these are illegal strikes, you know, for that's the gray area they operate in. That's just one example that applies across the board. Iran, of course, Iran is not a friend of the United States or the west or even many in the Middle East. Of course it's an oppressive regime. That's not the question here. The question was, is, you know, is this even a legal war per US and international law? Right.
- [27:16]
Alex Wagner
Not authorized by Congress, that's for sure.
- [27:19]
Wes Bryant
Yes, but now you have the military being charged with. Well, they're being told the same thing here. Same thing with the June strikes against nuclear infrastructure, which were also a huge violation and occurred in absence of any real actual intelligence and against even US Intelligence on the nuclear weaponization threat, as we know.
- [27:42]
Alex Wagner
I gotta ask you before we go, you know, I'm sure your mind races with possibilities given what you know and what you've heard, but when you think about this president who's been totally erratic and has now engaged America and much of the rest of the world, whether passively or actively, in a war of choice. Doesn't seem to be listening to the saner voices in the room. Doesn't have an end game, doesn't have an off ramp. We don't even know why we're fighting the war. What do you worry most about in all of this?
- [28:17]
Wes Bryant
Well, this is really not an effort at rhetoric or hyperbole. When I say, you know, we have been our country, our nation, and by extension our, our military has been gripped by fascism. I mean, the Trump administration, everything that Trump stands for says and does now and then, by extension, hegseth fits within the exact definition of fascism. So that's what I worry about the most. We are now the enemies that we have historically stood against. That's what we're representing as the United States. That's what I fear the most. And with that comes a loss of American security and credibility, mind you, a loss of global security. I mean, the world is in more chaos than it ever was at this point in recent history. And then innocent lives, I mean, innocent lives are at stake both in the Middle east and across the world. And domestically, I mean, we could do, you know, a whole few podcast series on what's been going on domestically with the use of force, not just with military, but with paramilitary forces.
- [29:41]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, well, that is a cold splash of water on our proverbial faces today. It's always invaluable to get different perspectives on the war, but to have your perspective in particular, given your background, to hear about how you're thinking about this and what you're worried about is eye opening and alarming. But also there's an urgency in all this, which is we can't like blind ourselves to it. We need to stay engaged and hold people accountable and make sure we don't do this again. Retired Master Sergeant Wes Bryant, thank you for coming on Runaway Country.
- [30:23]
Wes Bryant
Thank you for having me and giving me a voice on your platform. I appreciate that.
- [30:30]
Alex Wagner
After the break, putting this all into Context with Claire McCaskill. Runaway country with me. Alex Wagner is brought to you by Zebiotics. This year I am focusing on a small shift that makes a huge difference. Effortless presence. I mean, I have onerous presence, but now I'm focused on effortless presence. It sounds counterintuitive, but for me that means planning ahead so I can really live in the moment, especially when I'm enjoying a few drinks. My simple trick for staying balanced is taking zebiotics pre alcohol before I lift a glass. Zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It is a buildup of this byproduct and not dehydration that is to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you will feel your best tomorrow. I gotta say, when I don't take my Zebiotics before I go out and have a couple margaritas, I can tell the next Day. I'm a worst parent, worst coworker, worst podcast host, worst writer, worst MSNBC analyst. All the things. Every time I have prebiotic alcohol before drinks, I notice a difference. Even after a night out, I can confidently plan on doing all the things one needs to do to be a journalist in this here 21st century. Let's be real. Usually a Friday night out means a Saturday morning spent canceling my Pilates class. But since I started incorporating pre alcohol, my glass of wine does not disrupt my morning reformer. Remember to head to ZBiotics.com Alex and use the code Alex at checkout for 15% off. Today's show is sponsored by Strawberry Me. All right, are you where you want to be in your career? I mean, is anybody? But really, are you? Or are you waking up every day knowing you're capable of more? Just not sure how to get there. I am not one to be talking about success, but I'll just say achievement in the workplace does not just happen. And the most successful people in the world do not figure it out alone. I mean, honestly, the most successful people in the world don't figure out anything alone. They have mentors, coaches and people guiding them every step of the way. And that is where Strawberry me career coaching comes in. I think having people to talk to, sounding boards, guiders, mentors, you know, spiritual sherpas is essential for success in this world. Career coaching gives you the clarity and strategy and accountability that you need to turn your goals into reality. Whether it is landing the new job or advancing in your current role or transitioning into a field you love. With expert guidance, you will identify obstacles that are holding you back. You can develop a step by step plan, and you can take action with confidence, knowing you have a dedicated coach supporting you every single step of the way. Instead of relying on guesswork or waiting for the right time, professional coaching helps you take control of your career trajectory, ensuring you make intentional strategic moves towards the big square success. Go to Strawberry Me alex, and get 50% off your first coaching session. That's Strawberry Me. Alex is like therapy for your career. Oh, Claire McCaskill, one of my favorite people to talk to. I say that genuinely. I'm so thrilled to have you on Runaway Country. Thank you for doing this.
- [34:10]
Claire McCaskill
Absolutely. My pleasure. You're my pal. I love it.
- [34:13]
Alex Wagner
We are pals. We're destined to talk. Okay, so it's an economic disaster. It is a moral failing. It is a political catastrophe. The regime is still very much in control. In Iran, the first week of the war cost American taxpayers $11 billion. Claire, what do you imagine is happening in the White House right now?
- [34:39]
Claire McCaskill
You know, it's interesting. I do think there is. I smell a little panic. I don't think it's really seeped out, but where you really sense it is. You sense it when you talk to members, Republican members of the Senate.
- [34:55]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [34:56]
Claire McCaskill
You know, many of whom I would consider my friends, especially before they lost their spines somewhere along the road. But there is more of a willingness to push back. I mean, not just Thom Tillis, but not just people who are leaving. But I think a lot of them feel trapped now, because after you have allowed someone to totally take over and dictate every single thing without any pushback, then you have trained your base to basically accept everything he says and to believe what he puts out. So I think there is some political panic that I'm sensing right now, especially by those who are up for election. But I also. Alex, wanna caution. We have a tendency sometimes when those of us who have never supported Donald Trump and who have always seen him as somebody of that has a lack of character and a lack of integrity, someone who is narcissistic personality and, frankly, just so taken with himself that it's sickening. I think we've always underestimated him, and I think he became president twice because we underestimated him in terms of his ability to manage communication to a segment of America that feels like they've been screwed over.
- [36:27]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, no, I agree with that. And I think from talking to people who are Trump supporters a lot, there's a complete bubble in some ways that people do, I think, probably have a more decent sense of what a democracy should look like. That is its own bubble, though. But on this one, I gotta say I genuinely and generally believe in Trump's political acumen and kind of gut instinct. But on this one, I wonder if you are surprised in the way that I am that he did not try to sell this war to the American public beforehand and even now. So I'm with Susan Glasser in the New Yorker, who says he doesn't really want to talk about it. And I think that's indicative of someone who is not. Who's a unsure of his political instincts, I think, for the first time in a very long time, and who is not even trying to do the thing that he's arguably quite good at, which is sell, at least to his base, an outlandish proposal that he's embarking on. I don't know. Are you surprised at his salesman job?
- [37:28]
Claire McCaskill
On this, I am. I was surprised that. But I think there is some truth to the reporting that Bibi hoodwinked him. And I think we underestimate what an impact the smash and grab in Venezuela had on Donald Trump. I mean he loved that. He loved being able to order it, he loved the execution of it. Even though the person who's running Venezuela was a highly ranking official under Maduro and loyal to Maduro, he was able to sell that somehow he had changed things, things in Venezuela. And I think he thought naively, even though I'm sure Cain was telling him differently, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. I think Hegseth is so into this video game, 12 Year Old Warrior ethos bullshit that I think Trump listened to Hegseth more than he listened to Cain and thought it would be another smash and grab. I don't think he really understood that Iran is not Venezuela. This is not guy who hasn't spent a lot of time understanding geopolitical reality in history. So I, or any or any. Right. So I just think he completely underestimated what Iran's reaction would be and how this thing would wind down.
- [38:53]
Alex Wagner
Do you think that, I mean Trump himself lives such in a vacuum of facts and information. He has surrounded himself by enablers and stooges. Brendan Carr, I'm sure, goes in there and changes the channels on all the White House TVs to make sure it's like the correct state propaganda. Do you think Trump understands how badly this is going?
- [39:16]
Claire McCaskill
Well, I know he gets data.
- [39:18]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [39:19]
Claire McCaskill
I don't know to what extent. And people who cover the White House more closely might have a better idea, but I don't know what extent they are giving him good data. I mean, obviously we have a painful memory of the fact that I don't think the Biden White House was always getting good data.
- [39:34]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [39:35]
Claire McCaskill
Especially in the couple of years before 2024. And I think in 2023 and 2022 there was not, you know, great data that Biden was getting. So maybe he's not getting as accurate data. Maybe they only show him the outliers that and he doesn't realize how he's dropped like a rock, not just with independent voters, but Hispanic men and other swaths of voters that really put him in the White House. He may not know to the extent that he is losing ground with him, but he's gotta know. He always understood gas prices. He always understood that gas prices were the key to the kingdom. I remember my staff, when I run for reelection, we'd have a thing we'd do where I would Always make sure I knew exactly what the price of eggs and bread were every week. Because you get so into a campaign, you know, it's very hard for you to stay in touch with.
- [40:31]
Alex Wagner
You're not going grocery shopping.
- [40:33]
Claire McCaskill
You don't have time to do as much grocery shopping as, for example, I do now. But I always said, forget about the bread, forget about the eggs. I just need to know gas. I just need to make sure I know the gas prices every week. Because that is really the leading indicator of how pissed off people are at the economy and their inability to make the paycheck come out even at the end of the month. And Trump knows that. That's why he's always been all about energy, always been about drill, baby, drill, more oil, all of that. So. And even Venezuela, he said, Venezuela is such a great thing. Cause we're getting the oil even though we didn't need it. And now he's blowing up oil and there's no oil getting through the straits of our moose. And we've had the biggest increase in gas prices in 30 years over a very, very short period of time. That's gonna kill him. And he's got to know that there's no way he's avoiding that.
- [41:21]
Alex Wagner
I wanna call to attention our great crooked media superstar Dan Pfeiffer, who has a missive on his substack, the message box this week where he points out, he talks about the Obama years and how they too were focused, like David Plouffe was, like, we're gonna lose elections if the gas remains this high. I'm paraphrasing, but Dan writes, gas prices tend to be even more politically damaging than higher prices for food or housing or healthcare for a few reasons. One, gas is a fairly inelastic part of a family budget. You cannot skimp on it. You still have to drive to work and get the kids at school. And there is no generic alternative to shop around for. Second, the price is omnipresent. It's displayed on giant signs at every highway exit and every street corner going up a little more every time you drive by. Even so, and this is what's interesting, I think voters generally don't directly blame the president for price increase. They usually blame oil companies, global affairs, or the general shittiness of greedy capitalism. And yet, Claire McCaskill, a Morning Consult poll asks who or what was responsible for the rise in gas prices. 13% of respondents blamed global market forces, 16% pointed at oil and gas companies, and 48% said President Trump. That, to me, seems like a Very big problem.
- [42:39]
Claire McCaskill
That's a very big problem, right? Yeah, huge. And he can't really avoid this because it is so obviously cause and effect from the Iranian war. And it's not like we had any indication that anybody wanted to go to war besides Donald Trump and Bibi Netanyahu. So he's so good at sloughing off, he's so good at misdirecting, he's so good at blaming others. And his famous. Well, I hear, or people say, or people are saying this, do that with this. He cannot say this is not his war. So he really is stuck if he can't figure out a way to get the gas prices down before October. I think this will be much worse than they think it could be at this point if the gas prices continue to climb. And I don't know if there's some way he can get out of Iran and they can recover by then. But I guarantee you there's a whole bunch of people in Washington that are sweating bullets over this.
- [43:44]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. And I want to get into the Ghost coalition over reopening the Strait of Hormuz. But I mean, I also think, in addition to this being the American public seeing through quite clearly that this is a Trump created problem, he has no messaging on this. I would like to redirect attention to a clip that went a little viral this week of Senior Jabroni. That's not his actual title. He's the director of the National Economic Council of the United States. Kevin Hassett. Well, like, I don't know, what do we call this messaging on behalf of the Trump administration? Let's play the clip.
- [44:17]
Wes Bryant
But the fact is that the US Economy is fundamentally sound and that if it were to be extended this, it wouldn't really disrupt the US Economy very much at all. It would hurt consumers. And we'd have to think about, you know, if that continued, what we would have to do about that. But that's like really the last of our concerns right now because we're very confident that this thing is going ahead of schedule.
- [44:39]
Alex Wagner
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, we're consumer prices. We're not worried about that. That's not. With the surrogates like this, these Claire, who needs surrogates? I mean, because you point out, first of all, gas prices. If gas prices stay elevated, by the way, I love the like, side by side of Kevin Hassett. And then like Brent crude oil is like over $100 a barrel. It was $73 a barrel before the war. If gas prices stay elevated, that means everything's Going up, right? Like fuel, power, ships that move goods across and around the world. And therefore there's going to be increased prices at a moment when this White House is supposed to be focused like a laser on affordability. And yet you have the director of the National Economic Council saying consumer price increases are the last thing we're really worried about in all this. It's. We're fine. Everything's fine here. Whistling past the graveyard, Claire.
- [45:27]
Claire McCaskill
Definitely whistling past the graveyard. But not surprising when you realize that this is the Tariff Administration, right? I mean, Donald, if there's one thing Donald Trump really believes in and really thinks is he's a genius about, this is not some passing fancy with him. Tariffs and clearly econ 101 for any college graduate that had to take an economics course, it is pretty simple about tariffs. They raise prices. And when you're in a consumer economy like we are in the United States of America, one of the reasons the economy has been so robust is cause people buy shit. They buy a lot of stuff. And a lot of it came from other places that Donald Trump doesn't want to bring into our country anymore from products in those places. So first you have the tariffs and they are. That pressure is continuing. Now you have gas prices, which means the cost of moving those goods has gone up, which means the cost of those goods go up. So you have the tariff and the gas prices. One, two punch. I don't know how they get a handle on inflation with that kind of backdrop in the economy. It is very, very difficult. And we haven't even talked about the impact on food prices because of what's going on with farmers. You've been around the country, Alex, you've talked to people. I think one of the biggest untold stories right now, and I think the network that both of us are honored to work with, we should do more to cover it, is what's going on in rural America right now. Because there's gonna be a bunch of people lose their farms over the next two years. It is really bad and farmers are really pissed off. So that's just a really ugly stew for anybody who campaigned on the notion that he could bring down prices for America. Cause he was such a frickin brilliant businessman.
- [47:19]
Alex Wagner
Yes, it is a slap in the face, a dose of cold water kicking the nuts. I would say even yes. More on my conversation with Claire in just a minute. But first, we are gearing up for the midterms, quite literally with merch from the crooked store that does the yelling for you. Grab a due process freak T shirt and get ready to fight for the basic rights Trump seems to think are more taboo than actual pedophilia. Whatever issue is getting you out of bed and into a phone bake shift this year the Crooked store has merged. To help you spread that message, head to crooked.com/store to shop. This year, Vote Save America is peeling back the curtain on the places and races that matter most to decide the fate of the midterms. November will decide control of Congress and if Trump maintains his Republican trifecta. 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That is fable.com crooked 20% off and a better way to Bring things home Runaway country is brought to you by Green Chef. Are you annoyed with misleading Health Healthy Meals Are you tired of locking in for another new year's trend? Green Chef cuts through the noise as the trusted authority in clean eating, delivering only real farm sourced ingredients. You can trust every bite with over 40 clean, customizable weekly recipes designed to give you peace of mind. Every Green Chef box delivers certified organic produce and responsibly sourced proteins and seafood. That means avoiding ultra processed fillers, which is a very good thing. You can reach your wellness goals with options like Mediterranean, high protein, high fiber, plant based and more. All clinically proven to support healthier habits. So take control of your health without the stress. Let Green Chef do the research, meal planning and grocery shopping. Enjoy low prep, low mess meals for every lifestyle. I used it and I gotta say it made my Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday super easy. Like they're already hard enough, I'm not gonna lie. But when you have this kind of box of delicious food, things that you can trust and then use your daring do to construct for a delicious healthy meal from your family. It's an a night. Head to greenchef.com fiftyalex and use code fiftyalex to get your 50% off your first month. Then 20% off for two months with free shipping. That is code 50. Alex@greenchef.com Alex. To the reopening of the Strait of Hormuz. This is like where all of Trump's bullying and threatening and otherwise erratic, incomprehensible behavior. Really, those chickens come home to roost, right? Like I'm gonna invade Greenland, fuck you Europe. But also come help me fix a problem that I completely created on my own. Denmark, you got shipping lanes. You know shipping. Maersk is headquartered in Denmark. You know all about shipping routes and the shipping industry. Sorry that I basically threatened your sovereignty, but you need to help me now. I was struck yesterday or earlier this week by the President's comments. Sitting with the Irish PM Michael Martin and talking about the NATO alliance like they're a bunch of idiots. I mean, it's like these people have memories and they don't even need to be long. Let's take a listen to how Trump characterized NATO's position on his war of choice.
- [52:23]
Pete Hegseth
Well, we don't need too much help and we don't need any help actually. In fact, we just put out a notice. I was watching over the last couple of weeks and all of our NATO allies were very much in favor of what we did. They thought it was very important. We were just discussing it actually. Very important that we take out the nuclear threat from Iran and we've done that?
- [52:46]
Alex Wagner
Oh, yeah, No, I mean NATO, they don't need their help. And also NATO was fully on board, except for the fact that the President didn't give any Western allies any heads up about this. They're gonna be footing a lot of the energy bills, cuz they're affected by this gas shortage as well. And it's diverting necessary and potentially like game changing resources from the war in Ukraine, which is a war for democracy in Western Europe. No, but otherwise, Claire, NATO's totally on board with this. Do you think Trump is humiliated by Europe's response? Is that what's to account for his boorish behavior in and around NATO and the fact that he needs their help?
- [53:23]
Claire McCaskill
Well, he's really been, one note about NATO from the very beginning, you know, kind of sending a signal it's worthless, don't need it, we do it all. It's all about us. I mean, this is a guy who is surrounded by mirrors and he's just looking at the reflection of himself rather than reflecting on the reality that he has faced. In a world where you need friends. I mean, it is, you know, it just, it is so ironic to me that he believed somehow after insulting everyone and basically calling them shit bums, and by the way, J.D. vance was a chorus of me toos on this. The speeches he has given and the words he has uttered in front of our best friends in the world who believe in the same values that America believes in. You know, it's so stupid that he would think they would all then start risking the lives of their military when they weren't even talked to about this. Yeah, I mean, it'd be one thing. I mean, yes, if you ask everybody in Europe, should Iran have nuclear weapons? Of course everyone would say no, they shouldn't. But that is a lot different than, you know, calling them and explaining why you're doing what you're doing and why it would work and what the exit strategy is and who's going to take over.
- [54:43]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [54:43]
Claire McCaskill
And the help that would be needed and would they be willing. I mean, this is what presidents do, normal presidents, not this guy. And so I don't know if he's embarrassed or not. I don't know if he's capable of embarrassment. He doesn't get it that a huge portion of America, maybe not the complete majority, think he is mostly buffoonery.
- [55:03]
Alex Wagner
Mm. Yeah. I mean, well, I. Well, I think it's. We began this conversation, you were telling me about how people in Congress who are, you know, part of the Trump's alliance on this, right, are out to sea with no paddles. I mean they, I mean if they're not panicking, they're I think at least flummox or they're definitely intimidated by what's happening and how to talk about it. And I draw everybody's attention to the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, who was asked, I think very normally if there are ever gonna be public hearings about this so that the people who are in charge with the power of the, who are tasked by the, with the Constitution or given the authority to have control of power of America's purse can explain why it's worth it to be spending $11 billion a week or whatever it is to engage in this war just to raise prices on Americans and see Americans die overseas and see just morally alarming, staggering, devastating attacks like the one on the Iranian girls school. I mean someone needs to explain why it's worth spending our money on this. And so here's Mike Johnson being asked, asked like, hey, like could we get a briefer publicly at some point? And that's what he had to say.
- [56:15]
Wes Bryant
Been more than two weeks since this
- [56:17]
Alex Wagner
war was launched by the United States against Iran. Yet the House has not had a single public hearing with the cabinet official
- [56:24]
Wes Bryant
of the cost American taxpayers and to American.
- [56:28]
Alex Wagner
Why has the House not heard estimate
- [56:30]
Wes Bryant
from a cabinet official about this?
- [56:32]
Mike Johnson
I don't know if you've noticed, but they gave, they've given us multiple briefings. Well, they're, they're. Well it's still, we're in the midst of a, of a couple of weeks long operation that's very sensitive in its mission and scope. And you cannot go outside of the classified briefing to give to the public the information because it would adversely affect our mission. They have, they have well explained this to members of Congress in multiple briefings both before, during and after the operation commenced. We had the auditorium full of House members just the American public is getting. I've just relayed to you the summary of the non classified information. All members are out talking about it around the clock. You're following them around on microphones, getting their clips and insights and their opinions.
- [57:16]
Alex Wagner
Nope, that doesn't count. That's not a briefing. That's not a briefing. And explaining that you can't have a public hearing is not explaining a briefing. You're not giving people information there. You were in the Senate, you were on the Homeland Security and Senate Armed Services Committee. Like tell me Claire, is there a way to talk about what the United States is doing in Americans names and not Compromise the mission? I would hope there is.
- [57:42]
Claire McCaskill
Well, that was just a bunch of just bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. It is so unbelievable to me that this guy can stand there with a straight face and basically say that this operation is so classified when the White House is putting out clips daily of bombings, where we are seeing maps of the Straits of Hormuz and hearing information secondhand about what our military is doing. But somehow we can't have a public hearing that would allow. I mean, Congress not only has the power of the purse, Alex, they're supposed to be the ones to declare war.
- [58:19]
Alex Wagner
Exactly. Sorry, an oversight on my point. Yes. The two things they're supposed to be doing is authorizing war and the spending.
- [58:26]
Claire McCaskill
And these guys love the Constitution and they love strict textualism. Until they don't. And it is, you know, the precedents that they have overturned, the legislating that they have been doing by executive order instead of by legislation. All of the things that have gone on in this administration are so against the Constitution and the notion that we would be at war. And he keeps wanting to say, they keep wanting to call it a war and say it's a two week operation. Well, no, it's not. It's not a two week operation. And you know, the people in America, most people in America don't understand. They couldn't point out the Straits of Hormuz on a map.
- [59:04]
Alex Wagner
Right.
- [59:05]
Claire McCaskill
They don't know where it is. They don't understand the strategic importance of it. And a public hearing helps. It helps them understand why the gas prices are going up. That should be something Mike Johnson would want to have happen. What are they so afraid of? Is their so little reason for what they're doing that they are frightened to have the American people hear from the very people that are engaging in this war, whether it be the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs or one of the high ranking admirals in the Navy, or
- [59:38]
Alex Wagner
men's grooming expert Pete Hegseth, or we could actually have.
- [59:43]
Claire McCaskill
Who's supposedly the only adult in the room, the guy with his shoes too big. Marco Rubio. You know, I mean, somebody, he's little Claire. I mean, little Marco Rubio's got shoes too big and clearly he's like Pinocchio. And JD Vance has kind of disappeared off the scene a little bit, right?
- [59:59]
Wes Bryant
Yeah.
- [60:00]
Alex Wagner
Yes. You know why he's disappeared, right, Claire?
- [60:03]
Claire McCaskill
Yeah. Because he doesn't think this is going to end well.
- [60:05]
Alex Wagner
This ain't his bag. This ain't his bag. And also he's the, he's the guy that's not no regime change, no foreign adventurism. And by the way, he is joined in that chorus by Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly and Joe Rogan. Here's what MAGA right? Cuz now we need to just, we have to like, I guess, have maga Hawk versus Maga right. This is what MAGA right has been saying over the last couple days. Let's listen to how the President's stalwarts have been, I don't know, clanging the bells.
- [60:35]
Wes Bryant
I think most people, no matter how they feel about Israel, whether they love it or hate it or it doesn't matter. It's nothing to do with. With this specific country, has to do with any country that might be leading us around, particularly to our destruction and putting its interests before ours.
- [60:49]
Claire McCaskill
If you want to bet on the future of the Republican Party and keeping people in it, you would side with the isolationists. Because there is not a person under the age of 40 who's a voting Republican who's in favor of.
- [61:01]
Wes Bryant
This just seems so insane based on what he ran on. I mean, this is why a lot of people feel betrayed, right? He ran on no more wars and these stupid senseless wars. And then we have one that we can't even really clearly define why we did it.
- [61:17]
Alex Wagner
Trump has betrayed every last single one of us, okay? Make no mistake about that. Trump is now an ever Trumper. The very people that we had to fight to get Trump into office. He is now partnered with and insulting
- [61:29]
Claire McCaskill
us and he thinks that we're too
- [61:32]
Alex Wagner
stupid to notice or something. I hear the word betrayal and I think this seems different than other criticism. And I bundle it with Epstein because it seems like a foundational betrayal that they cannot trust this person. He promised to drain the swamp and take down the cabal of the elites and not, you know, spend American blood and treasure on foreign intervention. And he has sold both of those principles up the river. I don't know. I think this is serious. I think this is a legit split.
- [62:01]
Claire McCaskill
I think it is a legit split. And by the way, I mean, some of this is anecdotal, but I do live in a state that supported Donald Trump by big numbers. I do have acquaintances and I have dear friends who have family members that were big Trumps folks. So I am exposed to some of the rationale they have and the defensiveness they feel about defending Donald Trump and frankly, their vote for Donald Trump. There has been more of I screwed up in the last two weeks than I have ever heard. I have a sister of a dear friend of mine who acknowledged to her on the phone, I made a mistake. This is not what we thought he was. And you know, it is interesting to me that little Lindsey Graham, speaking of little Lindsey Graham, little Marco Rubio, he is probably one of the biggest hawks and always has been in the Senate. And he has been around doing the most cheerleading for this of anyone. And clearly he's talking to Bibi Netanyahu, maybe more than the folks that work at the White House and in the Pentagon. And he is leading this charge. But I don't really see that many senators, you know, standing up when they got a microphone in front of their face. They're not saying it's a big mistake and he's made a mistake, but they are running from microphones. And that's always a sign that, you know, whether it's Epstein or whether it's the Iranian war, when they run from the microphone, that tells you that they are not comfortable, that they feel more like J.D. vance feels about this than Lindsey Graham feels about it.
- [63:53]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, it's hard to find the upside. More with Claire McCaskill right after a quick break. Runaway country is brought to you by Oneskin. We've talked before about why Oneskin stands out as a skincare company. And it's not just hype or fancy packaging. It's actual science. Science. The founding team are longevity researchers who asked a deceptively simple question. If many visible signs of aging, like wrinkles, fine lines, and loss of elasticity are driven by so called zombie cells. That's how they said it. That's how they said it. What if you could actually reduce those cells to slow the aging process down instead of just covering it up? That research led to OS1.1 Skin's proprietary peptide. Say that three times. It's the first ingredient proven to switch off damaged senescent cells, actually slowing skin aging directly at the source. This is actual science that fits easily to my or anyone's existing routine. And if you use one skin, you can give your skin a very clear signal that it needs to repair damaged cells and support collagen and strengthen your skin barrier. I gotta say, I think it's, it's super cool that one skin is female founded, but I also think it's really cool that it's PhD scientist founded and that they're actually weaving in science in a foundational way for skincare products. Because you know what? It can't just look and smell good and be in a nice little glass container. It's actually got to do the job. And when I use skincare products. I need them to make sure they're actually getting at the root cause of all this, which is aging skin. I say it angrily but I love being old now. Using science backed tech to help myself reverse the aging process is not just my goal in Life One Skin's products are backed by extensive lab and clinical data including 4 peer reviewed clinical studies to validate their efficacy and safety on all skin types. Plus They've got over 10,000 five star reviews and they have recently been featured by Bloomberg as a leader in skin longevity. It really shows you you don't need a complicated routine to achie healthier younger looking skin. Born from over a decade of longevity research, OneSkin's OS1 peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age for a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code Alex at OneSkin co. Alex, that's 15% off OneSkin co with Code Alex. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about Oneskin. Please support our show Runaway country and tell them we sent ya.
- [66:44]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
Quick question, Are you politically engaged and
- [66:47]
Claire McCaskill
spiritually exhausted if you said yes to both?
- [66:50]
Erin Ryan
Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan.
- [66:52]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco and we're the
- [66:54]
Erin Ryan
hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture and not losing their minds in the process.
- [67:00]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
We break down the news, call out the nonsense and spotlight the women actually fighting back. Back on Capitol Hill, in classrooms and everywhere. The stakes are high.
- [67:09]
Erin Ryan
It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero handholding.
- [67:15]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
Listen to Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube.
- [67:25]
Alex Wagner
We've talked about, you know, the political and economic implications of but I do want to talk a little bit about the the sort of moral failings here because we began this episode speaking with retired master sergeant who was in the now effectively shuttered Pentagon center for the Protection of Civilians. And he was talking to me about just the sort of gutting feeling he had when he saw the bombing of the girls school, which is I think the largest American civilian accident in like decades overseas. Right? Just a terrible for which we've gotten still no explanation from the White House. We've just gotten this. This effectively lies and propaganda. But in addition to that, you know we're losing service members and Jonathan Lemire in the Atlantic points out that the US has lost 13 service members since the war began, which is the same number of service members killed outside Abbey Gate In August of 2021, when a suicide bomber detonated at the Kabul airport as the US Withdrew forces from Afghanistan. Trump, of course, blamed that loss of life on President Biden, whose presidency, and I agree with this, never quite recovered. And Republicans denounced the military evacuation plan as rushed and chaotic. That moment lives now. There was a sort of cinematic, like a disaster cinema quality to the evacuation of Afghanistan. Right. We'll never forget the images of people holding onto the planes as the US Is pulling out. But the loss of life is pointed to constantly on part of the right as an example of the Biden administration's moral and strategic failures. And I kind of wonder where you think Democrats should be on this, because if Republicans, and I'm not saying it's just about political opportunism, it is about pointing out when an administration administration is failing and doing the unconscionable, which is sending people to die in this case, for a war that has no purpose and no obvious end. What do you think Democrats should be saying? Cuz they're not running from the mics. But I'm not sure we have a unified or coherent party message on this other than, look what a bozo Trump is.
- [69:26]
Wes Bryant
Yeah.
- [69:27]
Claire McCaskill
I think that they are probably trying to focus on the real life implications of this war on Americans. And obviously, if moral failings was gonna win the day, Donald Trump would never have entered the White House in the first place. I mean, he is a, you know, in the hall of fame of moral failings, you know, that's all. One of the big ironies I always dwell on with this president is how all these Christians reconcile the way he's lived his life. I mean, this is a guy who changes wives like other people change shirts, you know, and this is a guy who thought adultery was just, you know, part of a gig. And this is a guy who clearly is corrupt, stealing money and using his public position. So the morality here is gone. And I. So I think there is a reluctance on the part of Democrats to think morality is going to win the day. Having said that, we do know based on the people at that are still at the Pentagon, we do know, and based on reporting that this was a mistake by our military in terms of the data they had about that school being there. Now, the saddest part about that, Alex, is that you could see from Google Earth the playground equipment.
- [70:48]
Alex Wagner
You could see the soccer field.
- [70:49]
Claire McCaskill
You could see the soccer field. So it wouldn't have been hard for someone to double check. But. But under Pete Hexseth, he's glorified Killing, I mean, it's not about defense. It's not about being careful about civilians. It's what that smiling Tom Cotton says. It's just war. And that smiling was in quotations because I have a reward for anybody who ever sees him smile. I don't think he's ever smiled in his life.
- [71:21]
Alex Wagner
I don't think he's physically capable of it.
- [71:23]
Claire McCaskill
Although I will tell you, he did. He did zing me back because I said that on a social media post one time that he could never be president because we've never elected a president that's incapable of smiling. He did zing me back and said immediately. You know, Claire, I definitely smile the night you got beat. So give him a point on that one.
- [71:38]
Alex Wagner
But I guess, ding, ding.
- [71:40]
Claire McCaskill
But it is the moral failing of, this is where we apologize and this is where we say we're sorry. And this is not who America is. But not with this president. This president wants to pretend that someone else, one of our allies, that has Tomahawk missiles, snuck in there without us
- [71:57]
Alex Wagner
knowing, or Iran and their Tomahawk missile arsenal, which is nonexistent.
- [72:02]
Claire McCaskill
Which is nonexistent. So it was pretty obvious from day one that it was us and it was pretty obvious that we screwed up. The fact that they cannot apologize is another black mark across the world. I mean, I don't think Americans realize the damage that has been done to our image across the world. If you travel internationally, you figure it out. But if you don't travel internationally, and that's the vast majority of Americans, I don't think they realize the damage that has been done. And by the way, electing a Democratic president won't fix that right away because now the rest of the world goes, well, you came back for more with this guy. You know, really, you want to tell us that you believe in the things that we thought you believed in, then how in the world did that happen? And I don't have a good answer for him.
- [72:43]
Alex Wagner
I mean, the vast majority of the country may not travel overseas, but according to Trump, everybody's gonna need a passport in order to vote. So I say go to US Passport off a stat if they pass the Save America act, which is currently what's occupying Senate Republicans and Democrats this week. I just wanna leave us on this because, you know, Trump's numbers are kind of hovering in the same place. Like, I think as of this week, his net approval rating according to nate silver, is 13.9 points underwater. And at the beginning of the month, it was 13.5 underwater. So that's like not a massive change. And yet if you look at the numbers in terms of approval on this war among independents, it is a fucking disaster. That's an official polling term. YouGov. This week, 53% of independents disapproved of the war Last week, 63% disapproved of the war this week. There is an election coming and you point out it's not just hemorrhaging support among independents, it's people of color, Hispanic men, Latino men and women who have watched their sisters and brothers and mothers and fathers and sons and daughters live in absolute fear of immigration dragnets or who care about, you know, cost of living. This is, it is a perfect storm of betrayal on all fronts and among groups of voters that Trump had, did not have firmly in his corner, who were kind of Johnny come lately's to the MAGA coalition. And I think that that poses a real big question for Republicans, not just in the House, but in the Senate too, which is not something I used to say. Right. I would just say Senate's off limits. Nobody get their hopes up, nobody get their dander up about what's gonna take place there. But I don't know. How do you feel about Senate prospects?
- [74:27]
Claire McCaskill
Well, listen, the polling. Let me first quickly tackle that. I think people need to realize there's a lot of defensiveness about people who voted for Donald Trump. It is very hard for them to say to a pollster, I disapprove of Donald Trump.
- [74:42]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [74:42]
Claire McCaskill
They can say, I disapprove of the economy, I disapprove the war. I disapprove. But it's hard for them because they have been under attack from their families and friends. They have been under attack. How in the world could you vote for Donald Trump? The polarization that has occurred has made people very defensive in their positions. The other thing about polling, I want to point out, because I don't think we've done a good job of pointing this out on our network, the disapproval of the Democratic Party, everybody. The Republicans like to say, oh, the Democratic Party is in the tank. Everybody hates that is because the Democrats are saying bad things about the Democratic Party. And that is the hardcore base of our party is so frustrated because they do not want to understand that math is about a majority. And you can't really fight Donald Trump without a majority. So they've been so frustrated because the Democrats haven't fought him enough. We haven't done enough. We haven't. So they have been saying bad things about Democrats in polls. But if you take that out, the Democratic Party is in as good a position as it's ever been to win a midterm. And I will tell you. Do I. I think the gerrymandering thing has gone south on them in many ways. Watch. Watch carefully what goes along the southern border of Texas down there in that area. Watch carefully what goes on in the purple districts in Arizona, in Florida. I really think Hakeem Jeffries is not out of line if he's measuring the curtains right now in the Speaker's office, I do not think he's out of line. And I will tell you, watch Alaska, watch Ohio.
- [76:15]
Alex Wagner
I agree.
- [76:16]
Claire McCaskill
Watch Ohio, watch Iowa, and even watch Texas. The fact that Donald Trump is playing games when there is a bitter, bitter split in the Republican Party in Texas, it is bitter. And I don't care which one ends up winning this runoff. The ones that were for the other guy. I cannot believe they're gonna be enthusiastic
- [76:39]
Alex Wagner
about voting Cornyn v. Paxton.
- [76:41]
Claire McCaskill
Yeah. Yeah. So if you've got a couple of those that go the Democrats way, then we have the fun challenge of having the majority floor leader being a Democrat and dealing with very close numbers with. With Donald Trump still as president. But let's hope that happens. Let's hope we have a Democratic Senate, and then you would actually have the kind of hearings that I think America needs to see right now about what's really going on.
- [77:09]
Alex Wagner
Maybe a briefing if we're still fighting the war in Iran. Yeah.
- [77:12]
Claire McCaskill
Maybe some more exposure on the corruption.
- [77:14]
Alex Wagner
Maybe a congressional. Maybe a war authorization vote retroactive. I don't even know how that would work.
- [77:20]
Claire McCaskill
Maybe we figure out who's actually paying for the East Wing redo, and maybe we actually find out what the hell's going on at the Kenneth. Maybe.
- [77:27]
Alex Wagner
Maybe a lot of maybes, but I like the optimism. I like the bullishness. I like the daring. Do I like you, Claire McCaskill?
- [77:35]
Claire McCaskill
I like you, kid. You're good.
- [77:37]
Alex Wagner
You're good. You're the best. It's a joy. It's truly a joy and a privilege to get your wisdom. Claire, thank you for taking some time from your day to talk to us.
- [77:46]
Claire McCaskill
My pleasure. And let's do it again soon, for real.
- [77:52]
Alex Wagner
That is our show for this week. Don't forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. We've got a bunch of YouTube exclusive content up there, like this week's rapid response video with the New Yorker, Susan Glasser Trump.
- [78:07]
Claire McCaskill
And if you look at some of his advisors. What are they out there doing while they're dumping on Kent? They're saying, oh, yeah, we knew he was a leaker and that he, you know, really was a problem, a security problem. He wasn't read into our secret plans. Well, then why did you appoint him in the first place? If you knew he was a threat? Why did you leave him in office for months?
- [78:29]
Alex Wagner
Last but certainly not least, if you have been impacted directly by the Trump administration and its policies, please send us an email or a one minute voice note@runawaycountryrooked.com and we may be in touch to feature your story. A huge and sincere thank you to everybody who has written in already. Runaway country is a crooked meat production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkovski. Our producer is Emma Ilick Frank. Production support from Megan Larson and Lacey Roberts. The show is mixed and edited by Charlotte Landis. Ben Hethcote is our video producer and Matt de Groat is our head of production. Audio support comes from Kyle Seglin. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. Katie Long is our executive producer of dev development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
- [79:43]
Claire McCaskill
Quick question.
- [79:45]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted
- [79:48]
Erin Ryan
if you said yes to both?
- [79:49]
Alex Wagner
Welcome home.
- [79:50]
Erin Ryan
I'm Erin Ryan.
- [79:51]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco.
- [79:53]
Erin Ryan
And we're the hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture, and not losing their minds in the process.
- [80:00]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
We break down the news, call out the nonsense, and spotlight the women actually fighting back on Capitol Hill. In classrooms and everywhere, the stakes are high.
- [80:09]
Erin Ryan
It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero hands holding.
- [80:14]
Alyssa Mastromonaco
Listen to Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube.