← Runaway Country with Alex Wagner
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- [00:01]
Rachel Maddow
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- [00:32]
Alex Wagner
the sun shining, birds are singing and all feels right
- [00:35]
Senator Adam Schiff
in the world until the season changes and suddenly you lose your motivation to get out of bed. In fact, one in five people experience
- [00:43]
Rachel Maddow
some form of depression no matter the
- [00:45]
Senator Adam Schiff
season or time of year.
- [00:46]
Alex Wagner
At the American Psychiatric association foundation, our
- [00:50]
Rachel Maddow
vision is to build a mentally healthy nation for all because we want you
- [00:53]
Alex Wagner
to live your best life and be
- [00:55]
Rachel Maddow
your best you all all year round.
- [00:57]
Senator Adam Schiff
Please visit mentallyhealthynation.org to learn more.
- [01:02]
Alex Wagner
Hey everyone, I am back and I gotta say I had a feeling Trump would pull some crazy shit. As soon as I was out for hip surgery, I did. Did I expect that to be the start of the third Gulf War or the beginning of what might be World War three? No, I did not. But here we are. Twenty countries have now been pulled into the war started by the US and Israel. At least 12 civilians have been killed across the Gulf nations, most of them migrant workers. Add to that 600 victims of airstrikes in Lebanon, where Israel is targeting the Iran backed terrorist group Hezbollah. Thirteen Israelis have been killed by airstrikes. Seven American soldiers have been killed in the line of duty and another 140 have been wounded. But it is in Iran where the situation is extremely bleak. More than 1300 Iranians have died as of this recording, including at least 168 children and 14 teachers in what multiple investigations have concluded was a U.S. tomahawk missile strike on an elementary school a moral catastrophe which Donald Trump is trying to pretend is not his own, whether
- [02:15]
Pete Hegseth
it's Iran or somebody else. The fact that a Tomahawk, a Tomahawk is very generic, it's sold to other countries, but that's being investigated right now.
- [02:24]
Alex Wagner
Thousands of people have died and for what exactly? No one really seems to know what the point of all of this is, which makes ending it sort of complicated. Trump has said the war is to obliterate Iran's nuclear program, which he also said was obliterated last year Secretary of State Marco Rubio has said that the war was started because Israel was going to strike Iran anyway. And so America had to follow suit, which Trump publicly denies.
- [02:52]
Pete Hegseth
So if anything, I might have forced Israel's hand.
- [02:55]
Alex Wagner
Trump says the war was started to help the people of Iran overthrow the regime. And Iran has now replaced its former leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, with his hardliner son, Ayatollah Khamenei. Here's all Trump could say about that one.
- [03:11]
Pete Hegseth
You know, I was disappointed because we think it's going to lead to just more of the same problem for the country. So I was disappointed to see their choice.
- [03:21]
Alex Wagner
Yes, this is a moral and strategic catastrophe. But you know what else it is? An economic catastrophe. Crude oil and gas prices are skyrocketing. Iran is threatening to put landmines in the Strait of Hormuz, which is where a fifth of the world's oil travels through and the global economy is, is in a tailspin. Which gets me to the last point in all of this, the political catastrophe. Americans are looking out at all this and shaking their heads, saying, nuh. We sure did not ask for this. A New York Times poll shows only 41% support military intervention against Iran, which is lower than support in the early days of almost every other American war. In addition to the moral stain and the geopolitical wrecking, this whole thing is a nightmare. As far as the one thing Trump is supposed to be focused on, rising costs. Forbes reported this week that the average price of a gallon of gas is now $3.58, which is a lot more than the $1.85 gallon of gas that Trump was touting at the State of the Union just a few weeks ago. All of this failing is taking a toll on the President and his minions, who either have no idea what they're doing, think the American public has no idea what's happening, or both.
- [04:34]
Pete Hegseth
We're winning the war by a lot. We've decimated their whole ev. It'll continue, I'm sure, for a little while. We took a little excursion because we felt we had to do that to get rid of some evil. And I think you'll see it's going to be a short term excursion. We've already won in many ways, but we haven't won enough.
- [04:55]
Alex Wagner
You've said the war is, quote, very complete, but your defense secretary says this is just the beginning.
- [05:00]
Rachel Maddow
So which is it and how long should Americans be?
- [05:02]
Pete Hegseth
Well, I think you could say it both. We could call it a tremendous success right now as we leave here, I could call it. Or we could go further. And we're going to go further.
- [05:12]
Rachel Maddow
You promised the Iranian people you would
- [05:13]
Alex Wagner
help them, but it sounds like you're willing to end this fight after your military objectives have wrapped up. Is that, isn't that a betrayal?
- [05:19]
Pete Hegseth
Will I help them? I'd like to if they can behave. But they've been very menacing.
- [05:26]
Rachel Maddow
Today will be yet again, our most intense day of strikes inside Iran. The most fighters, the most bombers, the most strikes.
- [05:36]
Senator Adam Schiff
I see in the media banners that
- [05:37]
Pete Hegseth
say, you know, war expanding or war spread.
- [05:40]
Rachel Maddow
It's actually the opposite. It's actually quite contained.
- [05:43]
Alex Wagner
What the hell is happening here? And when and how does this all end? Or do the President and all his men actually have no idea? I'm Alex Wagner, and this week on Runaway Country, Donald Trump's moral, strategic and political catastrophe in Iran. There is a whole lot to unpack here, and there is no one better to do that than our guest this week, the great Rachel Maddow. She is going to tackle all the hard stuff. Why Rachel thinks Trump got into this war in the first place, what lessons we have learned or not learned from our last bid at regime change and how that could and should inform what we do now and the ways in which all the rest of us should be fighting against all the fighting.
- [06:29]
Rachel Maddow
If Trump was waging this for a more noble cause, I think Democrats would have to really, you know, thread the needle in terms of what they said. But in this case, you can just gesture meaningfully at what he's doing and people know how wrong and how bad it is.
- [06:44]
Alex Wagner
But first, I wanted to talk to someone who's in the middle of all of this, one of the people that the United States Constitution actually designates to decide whether we go to war or not. Senator Adam Schiff of California. Republicans in Congress may be content to hand their power over to Donald Trump, but a handful of Democrats are decidedly not. Senator Schiff is dropping in to explain why he's part of the crew, demanding a proper war powers vote and to weigh in on what Democrats can do, particularly ahead of the midterms, to hold the President accountable to the American public and, oh, yeah, the U.S. constitution. First of all, Senator Schiff, thank you for joining Runaway country, the podcast. The podcast, not the nation for which you were part of the legislative branch. You know, I'm just curious because a lot of the show is dedicated to people who are in the center of the headlines. And you, you very much are in your day job. Where were you when you found out that Trump had launched these attacks in Iran. And what were you doing?
- [07:51]
Senator Adam Schiff
I think that I was just waking up, if I recall, to the news, because the attacks, I think, began late in the evening.
- [08:01]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [08:02]
Senator Adam Schiff
So you know, when you wake up and you look at your phone and there are ton of missed messages that something is going on. And generally it's not something good. I think it was a rude awakening, literally.
- [08:15]
Alex Wagner
What was your first thought? I mean, technically, you're not the last person who should be finding out about this. You guys are the ones that are supposed to be authorizing any sort of wars. But we'll get to that in a second. But what was your first concern as you looked at all those mismatches and realize what had happened?
- [08:29]
Senator Adam Schiff
Well, my first concern was that we were getting into another potentially endless conflict in the Middle east, that there had been no consultation with Congress, no authorization from Congress, that we would be putting our service members lives at risk. And I had very little confidence in the administration to know what even the aim of the war would be. Sadly, a lot of those initial fears have come to pass. But I think in the beginning, just astonishment that we were yet again at war, that we had bombed Iran last year, we had supposedly obliterated their nuclear program. And while I knew that not to be true, nevertheless it seemed extraordinary. We were back to war with Iran. And it also seemed that the founders very much had Donald Trump in mind when they gave the power to declare war to Congress, not the executive, because they feared that a president might grow too fond of making war. And given how many countries we have bombed in the first year of the second Trump term, it seems a very accurate concern and prediction of the future.
- [09:41]
Alex Wagner
Do you feel? So I'm hearing incredulity like, oh, we're doing this, we're doing this. Disbelief, anger, and maybe a little bit of depression thrown in there, too. All the stages of, I don't know, not grief, but something. Something not good. I mean, you mentioned the fact, you mentioned the fact that the Constitution really designates Congress with the power to send the country to war. You're in the middle of, I guess, the only fight there is to have on this. You and five other Democratic senators are lobbying for public committee hearings on the war, and you're really pushing for an actual war powers authorization. First of all, what do you think the public has to gain from public hearings? And why is that important for the American public?
- [10:25]
Senator Adam Schiff
Public hearings can be very powerful when you put people under oath. They don't feel as free to simply lie as we have seen others of this administration do when they're not held to account. The president, for example, with the strike on this Iranian girls school, not under oath but on Air Force One, made the statement that on the basis of what he had seen, he believed that Iran was responsible for bombing their own school. That seemed very implausible. But what was he looking at? Well, he can get away with a statement like that on board Air Force One, but you could see Hegseth very uncomfortable standing behind him. You put Hegseth under oath, and you ask him, what did you show the president? What did the intelligence community show the president that led him to that conclusion? And the answer may very well be nothing. That he just made that up. And so putting people under oath, compelling answers, even when they evade the answers, can be powerful. The Senate hearings just a week ago cost Kristi Noem her job. And so they can be means of holding people accountable. But here I think there's the additional purpose that if you go into this war as they did, without a common understanding of why we're even there, and you press them under oath and they're unable to answer or the answers are conflicting, then I think it tells the country something about this conflict and the necessity of bringing it to an end.
- [11:54]
Alex Wagner
Well, I mean, yeah, all their answers have been conflicting already. I mean, they're not under oath, but there seems to be no consistency to the most basic and fundamental questions of this war. You semaphore's reporting that you're trying to force Majority Leader John Thune to open up the committee hearings, which, again, are happening behind closed doors, or you guys are gonna hold a public debate and a series of votes on the administration's war powers on the floor of the Senate. So can you walk me through how you imagine that happening?
- [12:27]
Senator Adam Schiff
So what should have happened, first of all, is the president should have come to Congress and come to the American people and sought support from the public to go to war with Iran. That was the approach that we saw with the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war. At least they sought congressional authorization. They sought to make the case, even if in the case of Iraq, it was a faulty case. But here, there was no effort to make the case to country or to Congress. They just went to war, and they're making their bones about it. I mean, there are some still trying to call this something other than a war, and you heard the president call it an excursion the other day, but they proudly proclaim the nation at war, and they talk about the risks of war, but they're not willing to actually come ask for the votes for war. So one of the tools we have is something called a War Powers Resolution, and that is something that allows the Congress, when the President uses force, and that's generally in response, or theoretically supposed to be in response to an imminent attack or an actual attack, the Congress can use this device to end the use of military force. And it's privileged, meaning even if you're in the minority, you have a right to bring it before the Senate and compel a debate and a vote. So we've been using these first to try to stop the boat strikes in Venezuela, and now to try to stop this latest war in Iran. And we can use those to force the Senate to. To confront this issue. There are other tools that we can also use to force debate, and we hope, through a combination of different tactics and tools, we can compel the majority to hold hearings, to not just hide behind classified briefings where we're restricted in what we can say, but to tell the country, under harsh questioning, what this is all about and why it's worth the lives of. Of our service members.
- [14:23]
Alex Wagner
You know, what's so crazy about your efforts is it's just only Democrats, like Republicans, are also in the legislative branch. They have been designated this power, and yet they seem completely fine with being cucks to literally cuckold themselves for the Trump administration in terms of their legislative power in Congress, whether that's the power of the purse or war powers. Does that. I. I don't. I know, I know. It's like, oh, yes, no one should be surprised at the way in which the Republican Party has bent the knee for Trump. But to see the power designated you by the Constitution is a betrayal of the oath of office in a way that should stun the conscience. Does it surprise? I mean, what sense do you get on the Hill when you're surrounded by these Republican senators who are just completely okay with the fact that they have castrated themselves to give Donald Trump all the power that he needs and wants?
- [15:19]
Senator Adam Schiff
Well, this has been one of the terrible shocks of really, the last decade. It began in the first Trump administration, that is that I had a lot of Republican colleagues who I had respected and even some I had admired, because at least I believe that they believe what they were saying. And I would have imagined before this whole period that if you asked me whether I thought there would be Republicans who would stand up to a president who wanted to be king or dictator, I would have said, I'll bet you there are a hundred Liz Cheney's and 100 Adam Kinzinger's among the Republicans. And as it turned out, there were very, very few. And it is deeply troubling to hear Majority Leader Thune, for example, say that we'll get around to having hearings in the normal process when we take up the budget or other things as if we're not at war. I mean, it would be fine to say, well, the Secretary of Defense will come in when the Pentagon budget is before Congress, or the Secretary of State will do the same when we have the State Department authorization bill, but we're at war. You think there'd be more interest in actually doing oversight. But they are so cowed by this president, they are so afraid of this president that they won't stand up for their own institution, their own constitutional responsibilities. And you're right, Alex, we have two main powers, the power of the purse and the power over war. And we're not exercising either power. And it's basically use it or lose it. And right now, we are losing it.
- [16:54]
Alex Wagner
I just. I mean, they're the ones on the ballot in November, right? Like, if you're looking out at the landscape and you're like, this person has started a war without congressional authorization, a war that's costing billions of dollars, a. That's killing thousands and thousands of people, a war that is a moral stain on our. The fabric of our democracy. When you think of a U.S. tomahawk missile killing 143 children and a war that has political catastrophe written all over it with spiraling prices, the one thing he's supposed to be focused on is cost of living. Why in God's name are you still making your bed with this person who, by the way, is term limited and won't be president next in after 2029? I just. The calculation here, it's like Stockholm syndrome, I guess.
- [17:41]
Senator Adam Schiff
You know, I think it's a couple things. I think first and foremost, they don't want a primary challenge. They're not gonna speak out, they're not gonna act out. They're not gonna raise their head above the parapet if they're afraid Trump will endorse a primary opponent. I mean, you see in Texas, these two Republicans who are running for the Senate, you know, falling all over themselves to out maga each other to get, you know, Trump's blessing. So I understand it at that very practical level. What I don't understand is what are these people gonna tell their kids one day when. Or their grandkids, when they ask, you know, what did you do when that awful man was Running the country. Please tell me you did something to stand up to him. I don't. I don't understand why many of them are even here if they're not gonna do their job as our founders intended us to do. I do think it explains why they don't want an authorization to use force. They don't want a direct vote on this war because they know they'll be held accountable.
- [18:38]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, they don't wanna be on the hook.
- [18:39]
Senator Adam Schiff
Yeah, exactly.
- [18:42]
Alex Wagner
If you trotted, if you were able to get Secretary of State Rubio or Secretary of Defense. I refuse to call it Secretary of War. Him, Secretary of War Pete Hegseth up to the Hill. Do you think they actually know what's going on? I mean, when I hear Pete Hegseth talk, I think of, like, the Bat computer and the old Batman. It was like he's being fed, like, the continuous form paper, like, whatever the data that Trump wants him to spit out. He is given notes by this administration and does no apparent independent thinking of his own, to say nothing of critical thinking. I just wonder if the guy actually has any insight into the thing he's supposed to be overseeing. What's your sort of assessment of his awareness of the situation?
- [19:27]
Senator Adam Schiff
You know, I think there are different cases. Rubio and Hegseth. Hegseth strikes me as a bad actor playing a part of a real person who's playing the part of an actor playing a real person. It's hard to tell which is which, but basically, whatever speech talking points he's given punches them up to be the most macho sounding stuff he can pronounce. It becomes really, like, cartoonish in a way. His this is not a war of regime change, but the regime certainly changed. And we punch him while they're down. Well, that's great. We punch while they're down. So, you know, I don't think he's the sharpest tool in the shed. Rubio, on the other hand, understands exactly what's going on. He understands how incomprehensible the President has been on this, the shifting series of rationales, and he shifts with them. He's made a bargain. They all do when they audition or accept a part in the Trump cabinet. And that is they're going to follow the leader. No matter how inconsistent it is with their own views, no matter how inconsistent it is with what the President said the day before. They will do their best to rationalize what cannot be rationalized. There is some also sense that, well, if I don't do it, I'll be replaced by Somebody worse. So there's that rationalization as well. But I do think Rubio understands the situation. He's just made his bed with Donald Trump and he's lying in it now.
- [21:10]
Alex Wagner
Marco Rubio, we hardly knew you. We've talked a lot about Republicans. How unified are Democrats on this? I mean, it's not. There have been outspoken Democrats. There has been some Democrat. There have been Democrats that have remained more quiet or more sort of accepting of the notion of regime change, whatever that means, given the fact that it's one Ayatollah Khamenei for another. Ayatollah Khamenei, are Democrats united on withholding funding for this war? If the Trump administration comes to request, I don't know, 50 billion from Congress?
- [21:45]
Senator Adam Schiff
You know, I think at the moment, Democrats are pretty united in their opposition to the war, in their critique of the war and the lack of clarity about why we're even at war, as well as the recognition of the terrible costs of the war. You know, I think all of us feel a little bit of tension in the fact that we're gone. We're glad that the ayatollah is gone and we hate that murderous regime. And we would all love to see the Iranian people rise up and take control of the destiny of that country. But we also share the fear that, as has happened in the past, when the president has urged them to rise up, they rise up and get mowed down, and we're not in a position to support them. So I think we're united in all those things. When it comes to the funding issue, one of the things Republicans may try to do is take a war funding bill and add disaster aid to it and add farm aid to it, and basically try to put Democrats in the position of if you vote against this because you don't support the war, then you're going to be voting against all these other things, and they'll show up in negative attack ads. So there will be that potential complexity to deal with. But this is what leadership is required to do, is to try to hold us together and make sure that we are unified. We're obviously in the minority in both houses, locked out of the White House. We don't have a Supreme Court that is anything other than a partisan actor now. And under those circumstances, our only power comes with our unity. And we have to be, I think, locked up with each other and locked together with our House colleagues and unified in our approach to all this.
- [23:27]
Alex Wagner
Well, here's to linking arms in the face of just a president, a mad King gone even matter. Senator Adam Schiff, who has many more important things to do today. I super appreciate your time and your wisdom and your thoughts as we try and navigate these very choppy waters. You're the best. Thanks for joining me today.
- [23:48]
Pete Hegseth
Great to be with you.
- [23:52]
Alex Wagner
After the break, we'll put all of this into context with Rachel Maddow.
- [23:56]
Rachel Maddow
Foreign
- [23:59]
Alex Wagner
this episode is sponsored by Better Help. Let's take a moment to celebrate women and all the things they carry at work in relationships, in families and the many roles they hold every day. Shout out to the Ladies March includes International Women's Day, which is a moment to celebrate women's strength and progress while also recognizing how much they just carry every day. Between caring for others and managing unseen responsibilities, our emotional well being can easily be overlooked. So let's all remind women how much they matter and that therapy offers a space for us to take care of ourselves in the way we deserve. Therapy can help create balance, set healthy boundaries and support overall well being for everyone. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and and their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means BetterHelp typically gets it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform Having served over 6 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com Runawaycountry that's betterhelp.com Runawaycountry Runaway country is brought to you by Miracle Maid. You ever wake up sweaty or freezing or just uncomfortable? The temperature in your bedroom can make or break your sleep. Amen. That's why I switched to Miracle Maid Sheets. Miracle made sheets are crafted with NASA inspired silver infused fabric that helps regulate your body temperature. Hot sleeper? Cold sleeper? Doesn't matter. These sheets help keep you in that comfort zone all night long and they feel just as good if not better than the sheets you're going to find at a five star hotel but without the steep price tag. Smooth, breathable and ridiculously comfortable. Oh also, all that hidden bacteria in Regular sheets. It can clog your pores and it can cause breakouts. Miracle Maid's antibacterial design helps you sleep cleaner and clearer night after night. Upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. What a gift that is. Go to trymiracle.com Alex to try Miraclemaid sheets today you'll save over 40% and when you use promo code Alex you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three piece towel set. They make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee, there is no risk. That's trymiracle.com Alex Code Alex@ checkout. Thanks to Miracle made for sponsoring this episode. I'll just go ahead and welcome my friend, America's Encyclopedia of Soul. I just made that up. Just made that up right there.
- [27:06]
Rachel Maddow
You know, we ought to have an encyclopedia of soul. Yeah, it's.
- [27:11]
Alex Wagner
Well, when we're looking and thinking like, where is our conscience? Where is our soul? Who can help find our, you know, our true north? We know where we go.
- [27:21]
Rachel Maddow
Well, that is very nice. And I am going to write to the estate of Aretha Franklin and elect them.
- [27:28]
Alex Wagner
Rachel, thank you for doing this.
- [27:30]
Rachel Maddow
Sure. It's good to see you, my friend.
- [27:31]
Alex Wagner
You too. So here's my first question to you. We're on day 12 of this war and we've had a shifting series of explanations from this administration about why we're in this war. And I wonder if any single one of them has made sense to you. Has any one of these resonated as why we actually might be at war and what we're looking to do here?
- [27:50]
Rachel Maddow
The closest I think we got to one that I believe is when Trump called Jonathan Karl and said essentially, like, are you tired of all the winning? Like, what do you think of my performance? Isn't this great? Like Venezuela amazing, right? And now look at this. Like, I think think that he thinks war is easy and that it makes him look strong, that he doesn't need anybody else to be involved in any decision making process around it. Like he's been manipulated into thinking that he decided to launch this war. And I think he sees it as only upside because he doesn't actually have any concept that there could be any unforeseen consequences of a war. And so I think the closest that I like just in my heart of hearts, the thing that feels most possible is just that he thinks this makes him look good. I heard today on day 12, he said just offhandedly to a reporter, I didn't know they had such a big navy. And I was just thinking, you know, if I was gonna start a war of choice, I might Google that. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't.
- [29:09]
Alex Wagner
Or ask someone to Google it.
- [29:11]
Rachel Maddow
You have the disposal of the entire US Military, US intelligence apparatus and US Government at your disposal. And nobody mentioned they got a navy. And you don't recognize, you don't, you're not self aware enough to recognize that you admitting you didn't know the size of their navy before you started the war with them might make you look like
- [29:32]
Alex Wagner
a fucking asshole. Oh, I'm just saying it because the New York Times has some damning reporting which I'm sure you've seen this week about just how ill prepared this White House was for the war.
- [29:43]
Rachel Maddow
I mean, they didn't know. They don't have a point. And they have not thought about what might happen. They didn't even have a plan to get people out of our embassy.
- [29:53]
Alex Wagner
Yes, they were completely flat footed. They did not think the Iranians would close or threaten the Strait of Hormuz. And so now Trump's having a tantrum. For people who haven't seen this clip, I'm gonna play it. He's having a tantrum and just saying like, go for it. Like, who cares if it's dangerous there? Just like man up, stack up. This is Fox News. Brian Kilmeade regurgitating his conversation with Donald Trump about this very thing.
- [30:18]
Senator Adam Schiff
So Brian, you did a phone interview with the President.
- [30:21]
Pete Hegseth
What is his read on this?
- [30:23]
Alex Wagner
This?
- [30:23]
Pete Hegseth
So I asked him, how do you get that? How do you get the prices down? I know how much you care about oil and gas. And he says, tell these tankers to get themselves, get to it. We've wiped out most of their launchers. Here's exactly what he said. These ships should go through the Strait of Hormuz and show some guts. There's nothing to be afraid of. They have no navy. We sunk all their ships. He went on to say, he said, look, yeah, there's risk in the region. The region's volatile. Their launchers, there's just about 150 left. That's just about 20% of totals. They can't regenerate, they can't make anymore. And we are in the region ready to act quickly.
- [30:57]
Alex Wagner
Okay, just show some guts, Rachel.
- [30:59]
Rachel Maddow
I mean, like him, like, well, he's shown a lot of, a lot of guts. Yeah, A lot of physical courage. A lifetime of demonstrative like peacock displays of just his immense physical courage and selflessness.
- [31:14]
Alex Wagner
And then in addition to just telling, you know, oil companies to sack up and maybe, I don't know, risk their lives to get oil through the Strait of Hormuz. You know, there's reporting that certain military Advisors warned, hey, Mr. President, Iran could aggressively retaliate. Like, this could spiral. But Trump decided to listen to other advisors who were very confident that killing Iran's senior leadership would lead to more pragmatic leaders taking over. Like, that's the way Khamenei. So instead of Ayatollah Khamenei, you'll get Ayatollah Khamenei. So. Okay, Rachel, like, just, just. I know, nothing should surprise us, right? But this is where, when, you know, we were taught we have, as we have Talked through Trump 1 and Trump 2, at least in Trump 1, there were some people with, I think, some modicum, like a grain of sense who might have sounded a more cautionary note. This is the full fruition, I think, of having a. A cabinet and a leadership panel that is comprised totally of bozos.
- [32:17]
Rachel Maddow
Oh, yeah. I mean, the problem from Trump one that they needed to fix for Trump two was anybody stopping Trump from doing what he wanted to do at any second of the day. And so they've stopped that. All of the things that they've. Everything from, like, the Russell vote agenda and the Stephen Miller agenda and everything else that they've done has been about making sure there's no barriers to Trump's whims. And so this is what you get. I mean, him saying to. Not even to, like, the U.S. navy, right? Not even saying to, like, people who have signed up to put themselves at risk for the country. Not talking to them. He's talking to people who are commercial, who work on commercial vessels. Right. And telling them that they need to be brave because the Navy's gone, we've destroyed the Navy. Subsequent to that, the United States then is bragging that it blew up another 16 the day after that, blew up another 16 ships. Wait, I thought the Navy was obliterated. And then subsequent to that, the day after that, Trump is saying, I had no idea they had such a big Navy. Like who? The biggest mystery to me right now about what Trump is doing with Iran is why the stock market responds to his words, as if his words have any connection to his own actions, let alone any wider reality.
- [33:48]
Alex Wagner
I completely agree. I mean, and we're going to get to the sort of the Energy Secretary, Chris Wright and how he's managed the markets and the way in which Trump himself is literally just. He's. He's talking for separate audiences. There's, like, the Global audience, that's. And I guess the audience in Iran or Tehran that's sort of wondering what's happening here. And then there's the financial markets and, and, and, and on, you know, on one there, there are two distinct audiences with, I mean, I guess that nobody really wants the war. So that's the common thread. But trying to speak as a president of the United States, largely to calm the markets, is not actually how you run a war. That's not what a commander in chief does. No.
- [34:24]
Rachel Maddow
And it helps if there is a point to the war. Like if there is something he's asking for. A, you need to be able to ask for it in a way that's coherent, but also B, people need to know that there is some connection between your actions and your words. And with Trump all the way back to the very beginning, right. It's been like my mantra and covering him from jumping, you know, watch what he does, not what he says. Because what he says is almost guaranteed always complete. Not just complete untruth, but misdirection. And so to have like, supposedly sophisticated business sectors, right. Like financial analysts. I don't know who moves markets. Right. Listening to his words and being like Trump burped in the Kiev Sea. So that means that, you know, the Strait of Hormuz must be about to reopen. Sorry.
- [35:23]
Alex Wagner
I would actually like to hear him burp in the kfc, but that's neither here nor there. I gotta ask. When we talk about the disconnect between what is being done in our name and what Trump says, the strike on the girls school in Iran, which quite clearly seems to have been from a US Tomahawk missile, despite whatever Trump's protestations are, to me, seems like obviously over 1300 dead Iranians is, and, and, you know, Lebanese, then the collateral damage of this is a moral stain on us, right? Especially since we have no end game here. And even if we did, it'd still be a moral stain on us.
- [35:57]
Rachel Maddow
There's no goal, like, there's literally no reason to have done this. There's nothing we are trying to achieve by doing this.
- [36:03]
Alex Wagner
So we're doing this. We're killing children and their teachers on a school day, not admitting to it, suggesting it's the Iranians. At the same time that we are sinking Iranian naval ships do, which are doing essentially what we believe to be a diplomatic exercises in India, at the same time that we are kidnapping leaders in Venezuela and, and slaughtering, murdering, committing war crimes in, in the Caribbean, our support of Israel's campaign in Gaza, all of these things make it not a great time to be an American, in my opinion. And I wonder what you think when you put all these things together. We're still like basically year one of this second administration. What do you think the immediate fallout is for our country on the world stage? I mean, I know that's a huge question, but we are now assassinating leaders, kidnapping them, targeting civilians, openly committing war crimes unapologetically. This is just a new stage of bloodthirstiness to me.
- [37:05]
Rachel Maddow
Well, I mean, I think there's a sort of a worldview thing to take into account, and then there's a domestic view to take of it. And on the worldview, America, whatever pretensions we ever had to be the leader of the free world, that's no longer operative. And the question is, then, what's going to happen in the free world? Who's going to rise to leadership? What kind of leadership is it going to be? And do we ever get back in? I do think that there is still a global sort of confrontation between the authoritarian states of the world and the small d democratic states of the world. And America is siding with the authoritarians. And in fact, our government is trying to turn us into a post constitutional republic, effectively authoritarian state, if not dictatorship. And so we're not part of the good guys anymore in that global conflict. And so that creates space for other entities in the free world to step up, which is, I think, why Mark Carney's remarks at Davos were so important. It's really important to see, I think, what Macron is doing. It's really important to see what Germany's doing and what's happening in Germany's domestic politics. Like there's, you know, and Britain is in a very interesting position right now, post Brexit with this. So it's gonna be. I think that that is more wide open than it's been in any time in either of our lifetimes domestically. I think that we just need to get our heads around the fact that we've really entered the sort of mad King phase, right, that we. When you study other authoritarians or autocrats or dictators in history, if they have sufficient resources to do it, they almost always go off on mad quests like this. And the question is how much of their country they bring with them versus how much they're doing. It is sort of their own excursion. I think that's the word we're supposed to use.
- [39:17]
Alex Wagner
Yes, it is the word of the.
- [39:19]
Rachel Maddow
And how ruinous it is to the rest of the world based on the resources that they bring to bear. And so to have both Russia having started the largest land war in Europe Since World War II within the past five years, and now to have the United States taking on this really, like mad king adventurism while he, I mean, we think it's stupid, but he really is threatening Canada. He really is threatening Greenland. He really is. He has effectively ended NATO. He has, you know, what we did in Venezuela, what we've done in the Caribbean, what we're now doing in the Middle east, having set off what effectively feels like Gulf War III, certainly, if not World War 3, he's got no constraint on him at all, and there's no reasoning with him. And he's passed already one year in is past the point where he's even trying to create pretextual lies that purportedly explain what he's doing. So we're there. Like, we're there. We're there. There's no use warning about what's happening. We're there. We're living it. And it's a question of how the American people will stop it by removing him from power. And that's a very live question for us right now, right here in 2026.
- [40:33]
Alex Wagner
I want to get to how you think the Democrats, and specifically congressional Democrats, have handled the moment because they're best positioned to do something. And I say that with an asterisk because they obviously don't have control of either house. But when it gets to the American lust for punishment or like this punitive streak that we seem to have within us, that Donald Trump is a vain Donald Trump is mind, I'm drawn to this new reporting from ProPublica that details the way in which Hegseth, when he stormed into the Pentagon, essentially dismantled a new harm reduction effort that they had launched and basically gutted that sector and reorganized our national security around two basic principles, more aggression and less accountability. I give Pete Hegseth credit as a singular clown. Like, I've not been treated to someone so comedically villainous in a long time, and I write about it often on my substack. But I do think he is expressing, or at least at the beginning of this administration, he is the expression of some sort of lust we have in this country to be less kind, to be more cruel, to be freed from the shackles of, I don't know, not even political correctness, but empathy or something. And I kind of wonder how you think about it. It's not that it's like the manosphere was like, dismantle the Pentagon's harm reduction efforts sector. But I worry about the wickedness within the American character and how much of that still remains, or whether you think this moment kind of cleanses us of that because it's so clearly the wrong path.
- [42:15]
Rachel Maddow
Yeah, I mean, I think we saw some of this coming in Trump's campaign rhetoric, and it was true when he was first running for 2016, but it was, like, amped up and amped up and amped up, and really his language at rallies ahead of the 2024 election, it just got more and more distilled into these violent tableau. You know, like, he would just describe crime and murder and dismemberment and injury, and it's like he did it at his State of the Union. He spent like a quarter of his time at the State of the Union talking about, you know, rivers of blood and stabbings and people being shredded. And, I mean, and the people, the human beings who he's talking about, their loved ones are there sobbing while he's. He's kind of, you know, wiping the fat off his chin while he's going through this, like, bloodlusty horror show that he thinks is politically potent. And so that sort of thing, which, again, is, like, kind of a hallmark of dictatorships throughout history, not all of them, but a lot of them, is designed, I think, both to activate our sort of emotional rather than rational brain. Like you're supposed to have an emotional, visceral reaction to what he's saying and to follow him emotionally and viscerally rather than through any process of deduction or reasoning. But it's also designed to disinhibit us in terms of what we are willing to both see and tolerate and also do ourselves. And that's really dark stuff, but that's what totalitarians do. I don't think that Trump has it in him to be a totalitarian leader in the United States, but I think those are his instincts, and that is something that you'll get gleeful assistance for. And Pete Hegseth is a very, very enthusiastic assistant for him in that when they're trying to get you not just to hate somebody, but to imagine, like, unbelievably bloody violence while you're doing it. They're trying to get you to participate in violence.
- [44:33]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. Sack up and go through the Strait of Hormuz, too, while you're at it.
- [44:38]
Rachel Maddow
We've already destroyed their navy. Oh, turns out they had a really big navy also.
- [44:43]
Alex Wagner
We obliterated their nuclear program, but it's very much still intact.
- [44:47]
Rachel Maddow
It's good they're gonna have a bomb in a week. Yeah, yeah.
- [44:50]
Alex Wagner
More of my conversation with Rachel in just a minute. But first, you might know Dan Pfeiffer from Pod Save America or just by reputation. He's a former senior advisor to Barack Obama and he is co host of the show. If you want the nitty gritty on the latest polls, headlines and political nonsense, subscribe to his Message Box newsletter. Right Now, Dan's offering 20% off subscriptions for Crooked listeners. Messagebox cuts through the noise so you can actually understand what's happening and maybe gain a little clarity and sanity along the way. He recently covered what the latest swing state polling actually tells us about 2026, how to read through misleading economic headlines, and why the media keeps falling for the same political traps. Sign up today@crooked.com yes wedan and get 20% off your subscription. Runaway country is brought to you by Policy Genius have you started clearing out your closets or prepping the garden only to realize you want to clean up your long term to do list as well? Well, it' natural this time of year to want a fresh start not just for your home, but for your future. As you look around at the life you've worked so hard to build, the responsibility of protecting your loved ones can feel heavy. Financial planning often feels like a weight on your shoulders, but finding the right insurance policy is the key to easing that burden. You don't have to navigate the complexities of insurance alone. Policygenius makes your financial planning easier by doing the heavy lifting for you. They help you compare options and find the right coverage so you can check peace of Mind off your spring to do list.
- [46:25]
Senator Adam Schiff
Whoa.
- [46:25]
Alex Wagner
That would be a major check. And go back to enjoying the season. Prioritize peace of mind Lock in your life insurance today. Policygenius is an online insurance marketplace that allows you to compare quotes from some of America's top insurers side by side for free. Policygenius helps you find your most affordable policy that meets your needs. They answer questions, handle paperwork and advocate for you throughout the process. Protect the life you've built with Policygenius. You can see if you can find 20 year life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. Head to policygenius.com Alex to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com Alex Runaway country is brought to you by ActBlue. Here on Runaway country, we are all about cutting through the noise to get clear on what's really happening and what we can do about it. ActBlue provides Democrats up and down the ballot with the tools they need to run effective campaigns and win fundraise, organize, build campaign websites and donate with solutions that are easy to use. ActBlue has been there through our country's biggest moments. Our partners at Vote Save America create digital fundraising pages on the ActBlue platform for initiatives like the Anxiety Relief Program program and Flip the House Fund. Flip the House Fund has already raised over $180,000. It's easy to create the donation pages, to add features like goal tracking monitors and to design custom branding. And the funds are processed quickly and safely. ActBlue never sells your data or personal information. They focus on security so you can focus on what matters most, like, I don't know, immigration raids and environmental concerns and securing democracy. So whether you're running for office or want to make impact, ActBlue has the tools to help you make it happen because the right time to get involved is right now. Donate, organize and raise money for candidates and causes you believe in@actblue.com crooked when it comes to death, I am so I should.
- [48:33]
Rachel Maddow
That's a really good segue.
- [48:34]
Alex Wagner
It's a great segue. That's how the pros do it. Rachel, you can borrow that for your show. Okay, so seven American service members have been killed and there's been a lot made of the fact that Trump wore a baseball cap to the dignified transfer of those killed and then he skipped the ceremony, I believe, altogether for the seventh member killed. Fox News at least I think understands that this is an issue. They played a fake clip. Well, it's a real clip, but it's not from the actual dignified transfer. Let's just take a look at that fake news, quite literally from Fox.
- [49:10]
Senator Adam Schiff
President Trump, First Lady Melania Trump, Vice President J.D. vance and Secretary Lady Usha Vance attending a dignified transfer to honor the final homecoming of the six U.S. service members killed in Kuwait.
- [49:22]
Pete Hegseth
President Trump promising the nation that they
- [49:24]
Senator Adam Schiff
will all be remembered as heroes. Before we move on, we want to acknowledge a mistake made earlier on our program. During our coverage of yesterday's dignified transfer, we inadvertently aired video from an older dignified transfer instead of the ceremony that took place yesterday. We deeply regret the error and extend our respect and condolences to the service members families.
- [49:45]
Alex Wagner
Okay, what do you think of this?
- [49:50]
Rachel Maddow
I mean, I think your point is right, that Fox News instinctively understood that showing him in his baseball hat, standing there not only with his, with his hat on, not Removing his hat as a sign of respect, but also wearing that hat, like his merch hat that you can buy through the, like, you know, whatever it is. I mean, they understood instinctively, like, oh, that's not a good thing. That doesn't look like a president. We want this to seem like a good thing that Trump is doing, so we can't show that. Do we have any other footage that we could possibly swap in here? I mean, it's just.
- [50:24]
Alex Wagner
I mean, we've been in the news business long enough to know that it's like, you don't just stop. It's not like, oh, it's all the dignified. It's all the dignified transfer. It's like, no, you're looking for a specific date. And so, like a Google search. Anyway. I do think, though, it also, I mean, aside from the mendacity of Fox News, which is another subject of another podcast, another time, it is indicative of someone who actually doesn't really care about those fallen. And it makes you wonder, given the news we have, I think, about retal. There's some reporting about potential retaliation against American civilians. There's, as you point out, there was no plan to evacuate Americans in embassies all over the Gulf region. Federal authorities say they are being. They are detecting broadcasts of a coded sequence that could be triggering sleeper cells on US Soil. There's real questions about retaliatory terrorist attacks. I don't feel like our country's keeping us safe in part because I don't think the President of the United States really cares.
- [51:23]
Rachel Maddow
Well, he said that he doesn't care. I mean, he said as much, you know, yeah, people might die. People die in wars, you know, should. Should the American people be concerned about potential retaliatory attacks here at home? You know, I guess it doesn't. None of this stuff matters to him. I mean, remember that one of the first things he did, it might have even been, like, day one, it was certainly week one of his second term, is he took the security details away from Mike Pompeo, Mike Pompeo's deputy, and John Bolton. Yeah, all three of them only had security details because of Iranian hit squads trying to kill them. And, you know, like, there's the guy who tried to kill. John Bolton was charged and convicted just last week in Brooklyn, in Edny, there was a trial of an Iranian hit, essentially targeting Trump. These are live issues Iran has proven over decades. Iran has proven that it can project force and particularly carry out assassinations and assassination attempts all around the globe, including trying it in The United States. And Trump's like, well, I have the Secret Service, I don't care. Like, they're not gonna get me. And so who cares if they get John Bolton and Mike Pompeo and all these other people? I mean, those are live, active threats from a known adversary that has a history of succeeding and stuff like that. And Trump just cut him off. That's how much he cares about even people who he knows.
- [53:03]
Alex Wagner
Apparently one of the reasons he was convinced to go to war is because they said, hey, Mr. President, they want to take you out. And he was like, I'm going to take them out. So when it's a threat against Trump, we can launch a multi thousand casualty war and endanger the entire global market.
- [53:21]
Rachel Maddow
Yeah, I don't believe that. I don't believe that that's the reason that he did it.
- [53:23]
Alex Wagner
Oh, I don't. I think it's. I have. Who knows? I'm just saying it has been reported that that was one of the things
- [53:30]
Rachel Maddow
they told him while they were telling him to start a war with Iran. He was like, oh, another war, good. My last one was awesome. So there are no negative consequences for war?
- [53:38]
Alex Wagner
There are. Okay, you mentioned this before. When we talk about negative consequences, which we are bearing the brunt of the global community, Iranian schoolchildren. But Russia is certainly the, it seems like the winner in all of this. Right. You and I know you talked about this on your show this week. Oil prices. Oil prices are skyrocketing. Right. Our military stockpiles are being depleted. The munitions cost more. Who knew they got a big navy. Trump is talking about easing sanctions on Russian oil because.
- [54:05]
Rachel Maddow
Well, that's an issue. He has eased sanctions on Russian soil.
- [54:08]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, Russian oil, I mean, and Ukraine is having to send interceptor drones away from its own front lines to assist with the US War effort in Iran. So can you talk a little bit more about the way in which Putin
- [54:24]
Rachel Maddow
is
- [54:26]
Alex Wagner
the victor and whether or not you think anybody in the White House foresaw any of the way in which they would be directly handing him some W's.
- [54:36]
Rachel Maddow
I mean, literally the only winner in the world, possibly with the exception of China. We'll see. I mean, China has huge oil, doesn't have huge oil supplies, but it has huge oil reserves. They've got massive reserve capacity for hundreds of days of their own use. And so China is very insulated. Even though they're a buyer of oil and gas, they are insulated from the price shocks there just because they've built up such storage infrastructure. So China's Sort of. Not if you grade on a curve. As everybody else's economy gets whacked by fuel prices, China's won't. And so that will put them in a competitively better position. So maybe China's up there as a victor here as well. But really, it's gotta be Russia. Russia has essentially one industry which is oil and gas, and they are not Persian Gulf based oil and gas. And so their oil isn't going through the Strait of Hormuz. And as their competitors in the world oil and gas market get wiped off the map or shut down, they are sitting absolutely pretty. Russia has been broke, and part of that is because oil and gas prices have been low. That's solved. And the other reason they've been broke is because they've been constrained by US Led sanctions in terms of who they can sell their oil and gas too. And it hasn't constrained them that much because they haven't actually been very tight sanctions. But Trump has just in the middle of this. As we are absorbing the reporting that Russian intelligence has been giving targeting information to the Iranians to assist them in killing American personnel and targeting US Military sites in the Middle East, Trump reduces sanctions, eases sanctions on Russia.
- [56:15]
Alex Wagner
So
- [56:18]
Rachel Maddow
they can not only benefit in all of the other ways that you just described, but they can also get wicked rich in the middle of this and be rewarded for helping Iran kill Americans. I mean, we went through a long convulsion as a country over this president's bizarre love affair with Vladimir Putin. And much of that hinged on the question of whether you could technically say that Trump was Putin's employee. But whether or not he's on the payroll, he is certainly employee of the month right now.
- [56:51]
Alex Wagner
Totally. I think there's a gilded sign. It's the hall of Heroes, Kremlin style.
- [56:58]
Rachel Maddow
He put up a picture of Putin in the White House.
- [57:00]
Alex Wagner
Cool. Right next to the auto pen picture of Joe Biden.
- [57:03]
Rachel Maddow
Oh, God.
- [57:04]
Alex Wagner
What the fuck? Okay, I do want to ask you, as we turn to, I don't want to say winners, because I don't think anybody really wins in this, but the opposition and the resistance to this, obviously the Democratic Party and people interested in, I don't know, having a functioning democracy that doesn't extrajudicially kill people and commit war crimes. Democrats, do you think Democrats, in the way that they talk about this, have learned that you can be both pro democracy and anti regime change? Like, did we learn any lessons from the Iraq war that you just by saying, I don't want this War in Iran. It doesn't mean you are anti American.
- [57:44]
Rachel Maddow
I don't think that Democrats have to, like, innovate on their messaging here. I think the public gets it. I mean, you look at the public opinion polling on the war and the public. It's not like the public is against this war because they liked the first ayatollah and they don't want him replaced by the younger ayatollah. I mean, what's. So far the sum total beneficial effect of this war is that we've taken a few decades off the. Off the ayatollah and traded him in for a younger, more virile model. Great. I mean, the old guy was 86. Finished him, got his son in there, he's in his 50s. Great.
- [58:19]
Alex Wagner
Hey, don't you tell our president that 86 is old.
- [58:22]
Rachel Maddow
Seriously. But, I mean, the public understands instinctively that this is a really, really dumb war to have started, let alone to have carried it out the way they have. And, and that there's nothing in those numbers that is infected by some sort of sympathy for the Iranian regime. Right. Maybe Democrats would have to get more innovative or more careful in their language and their messaging around this thing if Trump had, in fact, done anything to assist the Iranian people and their opposition. But he hasn't even turned the Internet back on. I mean, he's done nothing to help in any meaningful way the Iranian people except suggest that they should rise up and be massacred by the besieged militia. That's it. And so if Trump was waging this for a more noble cause, I think Democrats would have to really thread the needle in terms of what they said. But in this case, you can just gesture meaningfully at what he's doing and people know how wrong and how bad it is.
- [59:33]
Alex Wagner
It's not a heavy lift.
- [59:34]
Rachel Maddow
No, I don't think so. I mean, what do you think?
- [59:36]
Alex Wagner
I have been asked a number of times, like, is there a split inside the Democratic Party? Do people feel like they need to offer a preamble of, I was no fan of Khamenei 1, but it's. But Khamenei 2 is in there. So it's like, to your point, I don't think the. I do think the American public understands what's happening here, despite whatever Pete Hegseth and Marco Rubio and Donald Trump say about it, it's fucking catastrophe. And if they don't understand the sort of foreign policy of it, they certainly understand the fact that gas prices are going up and that goods across the board are going up and that he's made a mess of the American economy and there's gonna be fallout from all of that.
- [60:11]
Rachel Maddow
And there may be a way for Democrats, sophisticated Democrats, to make an argument for the US Government actually doing something to help the Iranian people now. Like, first of all, maybe have Carrie Lake not running the Voice of America and maybe reinstate our global communications service that does Persian language stuff. Like maybe reinstate our support for democratic opposition efforts in the Middle east, including countries like that. Maybe support opposition leaders maybe. I mean, you could, as a Democrat, I think, make a State Department case in terms of what we ought to be doing to meaningfully help the Iranian people take control of their own destiny and position themselves better with regard to this regime. But Trump not only is not removing the regime, he's just sort of, I think, worsening the plight of the Iranian people by not assisting them, by promising them that he would assist them and then not doing it and by now bombing the hell out of residential buildings in Tehran. I mean, what's the plan here? What are you doing?
- [61:17]
Alex Wagner
It's a good case for staffing up the Pentagon's harm reduction effort once the Democrats in office. Not saying, just saying.
- [61:24]
Rachel Maddow
Or having a National Security Council. Who's the National Security Council may not have. National Security Advisor Marco Rubio. It's Marco Rubio.
- [61:30]
Alex Wagner
He's the Viceroy of Vista, Venezuela as well.
- [61:32]
Rachel Maddow
And the Viceroy of Venezuela. And he's about to become the President of Cuba.
- [61:35]
Alex Wagner
Perfect.
- [61:36]
Rachel Maddow
And you know, National Security Council is supposed to be like an integrative body, right? In terms of all the de. Conflicting between different national security entities and interests within the US Government. Like they fired everybody and said Marco Rubio was in charge just as an fu. Right. Just as a one finger salute to the very idea that this president would ever need advisors to be able to tap expertise of any kind.
- [61:59]
Alex Wagner
They had a big Navy, Rachel, who no one could have known.
- [62:02]
Rachel Maddow
Maybe it would have been a good idea to keep that stuff. I don't know.
- [62:05]
Alex Wagner
Maybe an advisor could have told you
- [62:06]
Rachel Maddow
that maybe they shouldn't have fired all the counterintelligence Iran experts in the FBI the week before we started bombing Iran.
- [62:15]
Alex Wagner
Kash Patel, as you pointed out on your show, was very busy drinking beer with the US Men's hockey team. He couldn't be focused on terrorism. What do you want out of your FBI director, Rachel?
- [62:24]
Rachel Maddow
That's a good point. I am being unreasonable.
- [62:28]
Alex Wagner
More with Rachel Maddow right after the break. Runaway country is brought to you by Remy, like every other stressed out person in this world. I mean, really? Let's be honest, right? I grind my teeth at night. It's not cool, it's loud. It's bad for my teeth. I think it gave me cavities in my molars. It's a situation that's untenable, right? I mean, we can't be grinding our teeth down into dust. And that is why over 350,000Americans, this is a lot of Americans, trust Remy to protect their teeth using a custom night guard. You heard me right, Remy. Night guards are clinically tested and they are FDA cleared to prevent teeth damage from grinding, to reduce jaw tension and face facial muscle strain, to reduce jaw tension and facial muscle strain, and to improve sleep quality. You're going to get the same professional quality and comfort as a night guard from the dentist for 80% less of the cost by taking your own impression from the convenience of your home. And that's worth a lot. Here's how it works. After you purchase it, your impression kit comes straight to your door. You can follow Remy's step by step instructions to get the perfect impression, and you don't have to do it sitting in a dentist chair with a dental assistant looking at you like you're crazy. Remy crafts and ships your custom fit nightguard back to you, and you will get your night guard back and start protecting your teeth. When I'm away from my night guard, I genuinely feel like my sleep is worse and my. I'm grinding my teeth to my gums. That's too much information. I know. A night guard is like a safety blanket, both literally and figuratively. We all need one to sleep better, to feel like we're getting restorative things happening at night and not destructive things. So protect your teeth with Remy by using code alex to get 50% off your new night guard. That is 50% off at shop r e m I.com Alex with code Alex. Thank you, Remy, for sponsoring this episode. I just want to point out some behaviors that have happened from the people who are tasked with helping the President run the government. Not that he needs anybody's help. Energy secretary. New York Times reports Chris Wright caused market commotion on Tuesday when he posted on social media that the Navy had successfully escorted an oil tanker through the Strait of Hormuz. His post drove up stocks and reassured oil markets. Then when he deleted the post after whenever administration officials said no escorts have actually taken place, markets were once again thrust into turmoil. With energy secretaries like these Rachel, who needs energy secretaries?
- [65:13]
Rachel Maddow
Who told Chris Wright, like, where did he see it? Did he see it on Twitter?
- [65:18]
Alex Wagner
Must have been.
- [65:19]
Rachel Maddow
Did he see it on Twitter? Did he see it on TikTok Truth? Did somebody signal group chat him? And was Pete Hegseth's wife and lawyer on the chat? Is there an alternate reality inside the Trump administration in which the Navy did escort ships through the Strait?
- [65:37]
Alex Wagner
We're getting somewhere. We're getting somewhere. It was a navy thing. It's a small Iranian navy and a large American navy that's escorting ships through the Strait of Harmony.
- [65:46]
Rachel Maddow
It's like they Grand Theft Auto'd it. Right. And somebody acted it out in a video game and used their phone and to take a video of the video game happening and then sent it to Wright. Sent it to Secretary Wright and was like, lol, Right? And then he was like, oh, cool, it's done. I don't need to check this with anybody. I don't need. I'm not in a. I'm not in a position of responsibility. I'm just going to put this out first. I'm going to put a few bets on polymarket.
- [66:13]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, totally.
- [66:14]
Rachel Maddow
In terms of what's about to happen in these 15 minutes. Oil prices.
- [66:17]
Alex Wagner
And then there is so much cabinet betting on polymarket right now.
- [66:21]
Rachel Maddow
Yeah.
- [66:22]
Alex Wagner
Okay. Another. Another section of the Cabinet worthy of just a few comments. Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff, who are apparently. Rachel, just to remind everybody, because we often forget the two real estate. I don't want to say tycoons. Two real estate guys are basically running American foreign policy around the globe. Right. They. Trump says they don't have too much. They actually have. They have capacity for more, to be honest with you. Reminder. They are. They were tasked with negotiating a nuclear deal with Iran, which obviously didn't come to fruition at the same time as they were brokering an end to the war in Ukraine, which is now in its fifth year, and they still play the central roles in negotiating a very fragile peace process in Gaza.
- [67:07]
Rachel Maddow
Well, to be clear, the way they are negotiating, the way Jared and Steve are negotiating an end to the Ukraine, Russia war, is that just every few weeks, Steve just goes to the Kremlin and sits on Putin's lap. We don't even find out that he's going. And then there's another picture of them.
- [67:27]
Alex Wagner
Just a touching slow circle. Slow back circles.
- [67:30]
Rachel Maddow
Yeah.
- [67:30]
Alex Wagner
Maybe a little light scratching on the back. Harder up to the left. Vlad to the left. Strazwitz. Yeah.
- [67:38]
Rachel Maddow
So it's not like that one takes a lot of time. It's just the time in the air to go see Uncle Vlad. And that's It
- [67:48]
Alex Wagner
Club Trump Gaza, Club Trump Tehran. These are gonna be incredible resorts when they're done with it. Just you wait, Rachel. We're the big winners then.
- [67:59]
Rachel Maddow
Do you remember when Trump won ended and Jared left the White House and then he got $2 billion from Saudi Arabia?
- [68:08]
Alex Wagner
Oh, I sure do.
- [68:09]
Rachel Maddow
And remember the explanation for why that was okay is cuz Jared was never. Yes, yes, yes, it looks like a bribe.
- [68:16]
Alex Wagner
And also his investments are totally fucked and nobody actually wants to spend this money on what he thinks we should.
- [68:21]
Rachel Maddow
And the like due diligence committee for the Saudi sovereign wealth fund was like, oh no, no, no, no, no, we can do this, this is insane.
- [68:29]
Alex Wagner
It's a terrible idea.
- [68:30]
Rachel Maddow
And they overruled their own due diligence folks to be able to say no, no, no, we're going to give this money to Jared and it's definitely not a bribe that we are paying him for what he's done in the first term. Not at all. It's because he's such an investment genius and a lot of people said like, well, if Trump's going to stay in politics, him having a son in law who's completely bought and paid for by Saudi Arabia, that seems bad in terms of any sort of future role, any Trump family role in governing. And the role was, the explanation was, don't worry, even if Trump comes back in politics, Jared never will. Jared is definitely done with politics. He and Ivanka, Ivanka, their social life has really suffered and they're not gonna do this again. So the fact that he's got literally, I mean a billion dollars is a lot of money. He's got like $2 billion from the Saudis plus, plus other Gulf states have stuffed more money into his pockets and now he effectively is the Secretary of State. I mean he's running U.S. foreign policy in Russia, Ukraine, Gaza, Israel, Venezuela, Iran.
- [69:42]
Alex Wagner
I'm gonna throw it in there, keep it in the kitty.
- [69:44]
Rachel Maddow
I mean we have our own interests vis a vis Iran, I guess. But you know who really has interests?
- [69:52]
Alex Wagner
Mbs, don't tell me.
- [69:54]
Rachel Maddow
The Saudis, the millennial, like millennium long rivals of the totally millennial rivals I
- [70:03]
Alex Wagner
think is how they term it, the Sunnis and the Shias.
- [70:06]
Rachel Maddow
It's very heated, yes. I mean if Saudi Arabia wants one thing in the world, it's to make sure that Iran is weak and divided and battered. And they bought Jared and now the United States military has been rented out to them free of charge to accomplish that goal when we have no interest approaching that potency whatsoever.
- [70:30]
Alex Wagner
But don't believe Any of the Washington Post reporting on it at all. For sure. It's just a coincidence, Rachel.
- [70:36]
Rachel Maddow
It is. That's right.
- [70:39]
Alex Wagner
This administration is filled with insane coincidence and synchronicity, okay?
- [70:43]
Rachel Maddow
And Jared is just the world's most talented man, which is why he.
- [70:47]
Alex Wagner
Extraordinary. He landed a Trump. What's better than that? Okay, this is the last one. This is for everybody who we started out on. Like, you know, we've covered some heavy topics, but we could not end this podcast without, I think, going to the most riveting portrait of a Cabinet, well, Cabinet member since Doris Kearns Goodwin's team of rivals. And that is the SNL parody of Peter Hegseth, our Secretary of Defense. Let's just take a listen to this one.
- [71:16]
Rachel Maddow
As you may have seen from our epic Pentagram meme drops, we're treating Iran like the breathalyzer in my car and
- [71:24]
Pete Hegseth
blowing it the hell up.
- [71:28]
Rachel Maddow
The good news is our operation couldn't be going better, and everyone loves it. To quote my personal hero, Papa Roach caught, I ran into two pieces. Make it a Trump resort.
- [71:45]
Alex Wagner
It is funny, even though it's true. Here's my thing. I talked to Adam Schiff earlier for this podcast, and he said we are gonna use every lever we can to try and have public committee hearings about this war. It's shameful and wrong that the American public cannot hear for themselves from the horse's mouth, from these Cabinet secretaries why the fuck we are doing this. He didn't use the word fuck. I'm just using it for emphasis. Rachel, if Pete Hegseth goes to the Hill and actually has to face real questioning, does he end up working for the Shield of the Americas like Kristi Noem?
- [72:19]
Rachel Maddow
Can he get through a hearing?
- [72:22]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [72:22]
Rachel Maddow
I mean, I will say, first of all, Colin Jost's suit for his parody of Pete Hegseth fits better than Pete Hegseth. True, true, true. But the one thing that he does nail, which is like, they've just. They've just Xeroxed it. It's just exactly right, is the fact that Hegseth carries a handkerchief that is an American flag. What do you use a handkerchief for? What are handkerchiefs for? There's a reason that you're not supposed to use the actual American flag, like, as it's not supposed to touch the ground, but specifically, you're not supposed to use it as something with which you. You know, that you blow your nose into. But that's. That's the kind of performative Americanness and depth of thought that these guys are putting into it. You know, here's what I want to know about Christino. Does the U.S. coast Guard Commandant get the house back? Because remember, she took the Coast Guard commandant's house.
- [73:19]
Alex Wagner
Sure, she sure did.
- [73:20]
Rachel Maddow
And does the special envoy to the Shield of the Americas also get dibs on the Coast Guard commandant's house? We just found out that Pam Bondi has moved into military housing as well. I don't know if that means that she's got claims on the Coast Guard commandant's house now that Kristi Noem maybe has been moved out of it. I don't know.
- [73:40]
Alex Wagner
I don't know how to. Real Housewives of the Coast Guard Commandant's House.
- [73:43]
Rachel Maddow
Pete Hegseth is also living in military housing. These guys have. I mean, this shows you the respect they have for the military, that they're just like, looting it for themselves. I listen, I don't know how long this Iran conflagration is going to burn. I don't know how long Trump is going to consider his, quote, excursion to be a live thing. The consequences of what he's done have changed the world, I think indelibly. Yeah, but how much of it is going to look like something he needs to answer for, I think is yet to be determined. And to the extent that he's gonna wanna blame somebody, Pete is gonna be Pete, like I know him. Mr. Hegseh is going to be the obvious guy to blame. I do think there's a risk, though. I mean, I think that, I mean, talk about alcohol content. I mean, I think it's possible he's flammable. Like, if you push him too hard with too much tension, like, there might
- [74:44]
Alex Wagner
be the hair product alone. I mean, it's just.
- [74:47]
Rachel Maddow
He has magnificent hair, you have to admit.
- [74:49]
Alex Wagner
I do, but you have magnificent hair. Oh, thank you for doing this. You are the greatest.
- [74:55]
Rachel Maddow
Great to see you, my dear. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [75:01]
Alex Wagner
That's our show for this week. Do not forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. We've got a bunch of YouTube exclusive content like this week's rapid response video with Ms. Now. Stephanie Rule. It's Ms. Now week.
- [75:18]
Rachel Maddow
Where the hell is Congress?
- [75:20]
Alex Wagner
Okay. AI is going to change every element
- [75:25]
Rachel Maddow
of the way we work, live and operate. And Congress has been absolutely absent at creating any regulation.
- [75:32]
Alex Wagner
In fact, the only bill that is
- [75:34]
Rachel Maddow
in front of Congress right now is the one the President's pushing.
- [75:37]
Alex Wagner
And that bill says states are not allowed to regulate. Right. So it's even less regulation. Last but not least, if you like this show and you want to get more involved in defending democracy, Vote Save America is launching a new campaign to take back the house. Project 218 flipping the house shuts down Trump's agenda in Congress. It gives Democrats subpoena power to investigate Trump's overwhelming corruption and abuses of power. It allows us to never think about Mike Johnson as Speaker of the House again. Good, good. And all caps good small actions, sharing information, talking to people you know and donating to places that aren't bullshit can decide the outcome of this election. So sign up@votesaveamerica.com today and if you can get five of your buddies to sign up too. That is Project 218@votesaveamerica.com hope to see you there. Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkovski. Our producer is Emma Ilick Frank. Production support from Megan Larson and Lacey Roberts. The show is mixed and edited by Charlotte Landis. Ben Hethcote is our video producer and Matt de Groat is our head of production. Audio support comes from Kyle Seglin. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. Katie Long is our executive producer of development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.