Podcast Summary

Podcast: Runaway Country with Alex Wagner
Episode Title: What the Hell is Happening at the Pentagon? (with Sen. Elissa Slotkin & Ben Rhodes)
Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Alex Wagner
Guests: Nancy Youssef (The Atlantic), Senator Elissa Slotkin (D-MI), Ben Rhodes (Pod Save the World, former US Deputy National Security Advisor)

Episode Overview

This episode examines the current crisis at the Pentagon under Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth during Trump’s second term. The discussion explores alleged war crimes, secrecy, and press restrictions, as well as the broader erosion of democratic norms in US national security. Alex Wagner and her guests delve into how these alarming changes threaten both American institutions and America's standing abroad.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pentagon in Crisis: Lawlessness and Secrecy

• Host’s Framing: Alex describes the Pentagon as embroiled in scandal, dysfunction, and authoritarian creep driven by Secretary Pete Hegseth, highlighting:
  • Alleged war crimes (e.g., ordering strikes that killed survivors in the Caribbean).
  • Sharing of classified information via insecure channels (“Signalgate”).
  • Drastic restriction of legitimate press access, replaced by pro-Trump propagandists.
• Quote (Alex Wagner, 03:01): “Americans trust their military, but that trust is at risk.”
• Impact: Congressional voices—including former military and intelligence officials—have had to remind the armed forces of their duty to refuse illegal orders.

2. Inside the “Eviction”: Reporting on the Pentagon from the Outside

Guest: Nancy Youssef, veteran national security reporter for The Atlantic
Timestamp: 06:16–23:34

The Eviction Explained

• Nancy Youssef describes the mass ejection of the independent Pentagon press corps (10:26):
  • New “agreements” required reporters to cede editorial control and agree not to publish information the Pentagon hadn’t pre-approved — a nonstarter.
  • Resulted in effective exile of legitimate journalists; access now granted primarily to right-wing allies.
  • “What the Pentagon was asking us to do was...we would agree to not publish anything outside of what the Pentagon approved...” (07:06)

Loss of Transparency & “Two-Track News”

• Loss of Informal Sourcing: Without hallway access, journalists lose “sensory” awareness and can’t provide granular, real-time analysis ("We've in some ways lost our sense of sight." – 08:26).
• Parallel Press Corps: A pro-Trump “Earth 2” press corps now circulates administration talking points. “Coverage...presented to readers on two different planes.” (09:32)
• On Propaganda: “It is propaganda. I mean, the inspector general’s ...report found that [Hegseth] wasn’t exonerated. And to suggest otherwise is to just basically adopt a line...constructed by the secretary.” (11:12, Alex Wagner)
• Press Resilience: Despite obstacles, independent journalists are “doubling down” to get the truth. “I keep comparing journalism to sort of being in a big room with a very small flashlight and what happened is the aperture got smaller.” (13:45, Nancy Youssef)

Erosion of Trust & Whistleblowing

• Fear Inside the Pentagon: Youssef notes increased fear and division; fewer insiders reach out, and those who do worry about “how much longer I can be here.” (14:48)
• Public Awareness: There’s concern that the public doesn’t grasp the gravity of lost press freedom. “I don’t think people sort of fully understand the depth of it.” (16:59)
• Notable Press Corps Quote (re: being “annoying”):
  “She said that we rang the doorbell in the hallways. Rang the doorbell. Yes, we did. But we did it professionally. And I personally have no apologies for that. You bet we did. Because that is the job.” (20:31, Nancy Youssef)

3. Morality, Law, and Leadership: Refusing Illegal Orders

Guest: Sen. Elissa Slotkin (D-MI), former CIA officer and Pentagon official
Timestamp: 25:21–43:34

Refusing Unlawful Orders: The Growing Crisis

• Slotkin helped organize a public statement reminding the military it has the right—and duty—to refuse illegal orders.
• Contrast Past and Present:
  Clip: Hegseth in 2016 says the military “won’t follow unlawful orders.”
  Slotkin: “I agree with the 2016 Pete Hegseth...but 2025 is a different story.” (26:55)
• Problem of Power:
  “It’s just about what I think is winning...and both are wrong, frankly...there has to be some standards, some common values.” (27:36)

Chilling Effects and Institutional Decay

• Whistleblowers in Uniform: Many service members have reached out worried about being ordered to act unlawfully. “People in uniform...worried I’m gonna be asked to do something that is not lawful.” (28:24)
• Purge of Dissenters: Up to 18 or 19 senior officers “have just been summarily removed” for not aligning politically — signals to others the cost of not complying. (30:51)
• No Accountability from Leadership: Hegseth doubles down on mistakes rather than acknowledges them; previous Secretaries owned responsibility. (32:03)

Escalating Intimidation and Democratic Erosion

• Death Threats & Retaliation: After Slotkin’s video, she and others received death threats; the President called for her execution and weaponized government investigations against them.
  • “When the president says you should be killed...your family gets threatened....you gotta get a lawyer and figure out how you’re gonna pay someone to defend you. Because the government...is now being weaponized against me.” (35:17)
• Impact on Future Leaders: Fear of retaliation may discourage the next generation from public service. (36:08)

Press Restrictions: Threat to Democracy

• Slotkin notes the removal of independent press is “a symbol of the lack of transparency” and the presence of only hand-picked, loyalist “reporters” inside is “Soviet Union stuff.” (39:41)
• Yet, external press persists: “I’ve been pretty impressed that they are still doing their job even though they’re not sitting physically in the building.” (41:50)

The Hegseth Factor

• Trump has not fired Hegseth despite ongoing scandal, perhaps because “he gets tired of being asked” about him, or because Hegseth is particularly loyal.
• Slotkin’s Suggestion: Trump should replace Hegseth with someone credible; “Let the man just go work out. That’s all he really wants to do.” (43:16)

4. The Authoritarian Playbook and Global Implications

Guest: Ben Rhodes, former Deputy NSA, co-host of Pod Save the World
Timestamp: 46:09–71:46

The Danger of Pete Hegseth’s Pentagon

• Rhodes ranks Hegseth as the “single most dangerous Trump official right now” given his control of the US military and willingness to use it unlawfully. (47:02)
• “They’re doing some particularly odious shit...extrajudicially killing people...or potentially preparing for a regime change war in Venezuela.” (47:22)

Trump’s Motivation and “Transforming” the Military

• Trump retains scandal-plagued loyalists and “purges” dissenters to mold the military into a tool of personal power.
• “He’s promoting MAGA generals...Trump wants a military that will do what he wants.” (49:26)

Authoritarian Conditioning and Global Impact

• Trump’s “boat strikes” and redefining of narco-trafficking as terrorism sets precedents for extralegal military violence, at home and abroad.
• “If he can say these are terrorists I can blow up, who can’t he say that about?” (54:01)
• Authoritarians worldwide have copied US “war on terror” rhetoric to justify oppression (Putin, China, etc.). Ben expects expanded abuse as more regimes label their enemies as narco-terrorists (59:18).

Setting the Stage for Domestic Military Use

• Rhodes fears these military actions are “conditioning” service members and the country for domestic use of force. “Some of the things he’s done in the first year are kind of conditioning...to get used to the fact that you might just be killing people and boats because they ordered.” (61:21)
• The “ramp-up to more dramatic action” may portend deployment against US cities or illegal foreign interventions.

Democrats, Foreign Policy Morality, and Public Messaging

• Rhodes argues Gaza war crimes and the numbing normalization of violence have blunted moral outrage that could fuel opposition to Trump’s extrajudicial actions.
• Urges Democrats to show “moral clarity”:
  “The United States military should not be killing people with no legal justification in the Caribbean, full stop.” (66:00)
  • Avoid old political self-censorship, be clear, vocal, and consistent—especially since even MAGA voters tire of “forever wars.”
• Quote (Ben Rhodes):
  “If Democrats are consistent, vocal, unafraid, they’re not hedging...I actually think that’s an incredibly politically salient message because it reaches parts of the MAGA coalition...Stop listening to those fucking people [DC hawks].” (67:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nancy Youssef, on the press eviction:
  “I keep comparing journalism to being in a big room with a very small flashlight...the aperture got smaller.” (13:45)
• Alex Wagner, on right-wing press:
  “There’s an official Prenticon press corps and they’re just spitting out propaganda on behalf of the secretary and his minions.” (11:12)
• Nancy Youssef, on press persistence:
  “She said that we rang the doorbell...Yes, we did. Because that is the job.” (20:31)
• Sen. Slotkin, on institutional decay:
  “…Imagine all the other purges...people that people in uniform really look up to... have just been summarily removed...” (30:51)
• Ben Rhodes, on “militarizing” crime:
  “When you introduce the word terrorist, it militarizes things…They’re conditioning people for his ability to kind of designate anybody…” (54:01)
• Rhodes, on moral clarity:
  “Let’s try moral clarity.” (71:23)
• Slotkin, on political chilling:
  “I think about that young 28 year old woman with small kids who thinks maybe one day I’ll run. And says, well, why do I need that problem?” (36:08)

Timeline of Key Segments

• 03:01 — Alex Wagner introduces Pentagon crisis, plays Congressional “Don’t Give Up the Ship” statement.
• 06:16–23:34 — Interview with Nancy Youssef on press eviction, parallel news tracks, and internal Pentagon dissent.
• 25:21–43:34 — Senator Alyssa Slotkin on military’s right/duty to refuse illegal orders, purge of officers, personal retaliation from Trump, and the chilling effect on democracy.
• 46:09–71:46 — Ben Rhodes on Hegseth’s danger, transformation of the Pentagon into a personal tool, global authoritarian parallels, and the consequences of moral drift.
• 71:40 — Closing gratitude, quick activism update, and farewells.

Summary Takeaways

• The Pentagon, under Pete Hegseth and Trump, is facing profound crises of law, accountability, and transparency, with echoes of authoritarianism.
• Independent press has been exiled, replaced by loyalist “stenographers,” compromising the public’s right to know.
• There is an organized campaign by lawmakers and ex-officials urging the military to refuse illegal orders in the face of political abuses.
• Both inside and outside observers warn of deepening rifts, purges, and lack of moral leadership—threatening military professionalism and democracy itself.
• The Trump administration is setting worrying global and domestic precedents by redefining enemies and bypassing legal checks—a move other autocrats may emulate.
• Guests emphasize the need for vigilant reporting, moral clarity, and bipartisan courage to resist creeping authoritarianism and defend fundamental values.

[End of Summary]