Where Do Democrats Go After Graham Platner?

Summary

Podcast Summary Runaway Country with Alex Wagner
Episode: “Where Do Democrats Go After Graham Platner?”
Date: July 9, 2026

Overview

This urgent, high-stakes episode of Runaway Country tackles the seismic fallout after Graham Platner, the embattled Democratic Senate nominee in Maine, suspended his campaign amid mounting scandals and credible accusations of sexual assault. Alex Wagner brings together voices of those directly affected and the strategists watching closely to ask: What’s next for Democrats in Maine and nationwide? What does Platner’s spectacular unravelling say about the party’s recruitment strategy, ideological direction, and approach to winning back the Senate? Guests include Maine brewery owner and ex-candidate Dan Kleban and veteran Democratic strategist Adam Jentelson.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Graham Platner Scandal: Shockwaves & Realignment

• The episode opens by recapping the explosive allegations against Platner—a Nazi tattoo, racist and sexist online posts, physical abuse, infidelity, and ultimately a credible sexual assault accusation on CNN (03:04, Jenny Rasicow: “He violated multiple layers of consent that night.”).
• The response from the Democratic establishment is swift and uncompromising. High-profile endorsements are rescinded (Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Hasan Piker, Ro Khanna, Zoran Mamdani).
• Maine Democrats are desperate for Platner to step aside and allow for the appointment of a viable candidate to face Susan Collins, given tight legal deadlines (A: “If Platner withdraws by July 13...Maine Democrats have until July 27 to appoint that person.” – 04:13).

2. Dan Kleban on Insiders, Outsiders, and Party Meddling

• Dan Kleban, Maine Beer Company founder and briefly a Senate candidate himself, describes how national party operatives pressured him to delay his run to clear the way for Governor Janet Mills, signaling deep frustration with D.C. meddling (11:15).
  • F: “We've had enough meddling in our politics up here in Maine—from D.C., from New York, these consultants that have come up here and tried to tell Mainers what kind of candidates we need.”
• Kleban expresses regret for acquiescing to party wishes, saying he would “let the chips fall” were he to do it again, and stresses the urgent need for a “clean break” from Platner’s baggage.
• He reflects candidly on why voters overlooked Platner’s “breadcrumbs”—echoing a David-vs.-Goliath desire to unseat Collins, the desperation for change, and an irresistible anti-establishment message (18:09).
  • F: “The message became more important than the deficiencies of the messenger.”
• On the upside: Kleban is “proud” there’s a moral red line for Democrats, unlike “some parties,” and thinks the party now has a chance for a “fair and open process” to rebuild and refocus on Collins (21:29).

3. The Inside Process: Who Comes Next in Maine?

• Discussion of potential replacements includes established politicos and wild-card celebrity names (Jared Golden, Nirav Shah, Shena Bellows, Jordan Wood, Dan Kleban, Heather Cox Richardson, Patrick Dempsey).
• Frustration at Platner’s attempts to influence his successor: “He should take this moment to just bow out and attend to his family and his affairs and let the people of Maine finally have a process free of any outside influence.” (24:49)
• Kleban confirms his interest in the nomination if a genuine process emerges and details the scramble for a lightning-fast two-week campaign. (23:31)

4. Strategist Adam Jentelson: The Broader Democratic Crisis

• Adam Jentelson joins to zoom out on the party’s national stakes. His core message: Platner’s exit may be a blessing—Democrats have a much better shot to win Maine and take the Senate:
  • B: “If for some reason that doesn’t transpire, then we should be terrified because that seat is probably unwinnable. ... The upside here is that we now have a path to getting a nominee who can actually win.” (31:08)
• Jentelson critiques the myth that Platner was a white working-class savior—his polling with those voters was “grim” even before the final scandal (32:18).
• He notes that Platner deceived many in the party, including direct lies to senior Democrats claiming “nothing more was coming” after the initial scandals (35:00).

5. Lessons for Democratic Recruitment & The Big Tent

• The episode examines the double-edged nature of outsider, populist recruitment. While the “establishment is cooked,” recklessly backing under-vetted anti-establishment figures causes disaster (48:46).
  • B: “We should be careful to draw the right lessons here and not overcorrect. It’s not wrong to expand our field... but you still have to vet.”
• Caution against painting all insurgent, nontraditional candidates with the same brush; there are strong outsider wins in Texas and Pennsylvania.
• On ideological warfare: Jentelson urges a “big tent absolutist” approach—welcoming DSA socialists, centrist moderates, and everyone in between (54:34).
  • B: “If everybody is cool with everybody else being in the tent, that’s a good situation.... Everybody should just say their own beliefs out loud.”

6. The Future of Party Leadership

• Debate over Chuck Schumer’s continued leadership after heavy-handed DSCC interventions in Maine. Jentelson suggests it’s time for a generational transition, citing Harry Reid’s model of timely retirement and legacy-building (59:53).
  • B: “That would be a great time to go out on top.... You have to decide to not run again at a point where you still probably could run again.”
• Sidebar on Senate gerontocracy: “The Senate is a great senior living facility. ... You got people bringing you food, attending to your every need.” (62:16)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jenny Rasicow on CNN: “He violated multiple layers of consent that night.” (03:04)
• Dan Kleban: “I'm sick and tired of DC trying to come up here to Maine and tell us how to run our process.” (11:15)
• Jentelson: “This sense that he was this savior of leftwing populism was already starting to be pretty threadbare before this stuff hit.” (33:59)
• On Platner lying: “He had this sort of dead-eyed ability to just sort of lie... The ease with which he does it was unnerving.” (37:16)
• On party identity: “Big tentism is ascendant. I think heterodoxy is ascendant.” (57:19)
• On Schumer: “It would be a great time to go out on top... The Senate is a great senior living facility.” (59:53 and 62:16)

Important Timestamps

• Platner Allegations Overview: 02:43–03:17
• National Dems Call for Withdrawal: 04:01–04:13
• Dan Kleban on Maine, Party Meddling: 07:23–13:08
• Party's Red Line Discussion: 21:00–21:32
• Jentelson Starts—Senate Stakes: 30:56
• Platner’s Polling & Messaging Weakness: 32:13–33:25
• Lying to Endorsers: 35:01–37:16
• Discussion on Big Tent/Ideology: 54:34–56:54
• Party Leadership Future: 59:53–63:09

Flow & Utility for Non-listeners

The episode offers a rare, on-the-ground view into how a pivotal Senate race blew up and what happens next, fusing local outrage and inside strategy with a frank discussion about party health and culture. By blending interviews, policy implications, and bracingly honest (sometimes profane) analysis, it’s essential listening for anyone watching the Democrats’ next move—especially as they try to regain control and define who they are in a post-Platner landscape.

Tone

Candid, frustrated, sometimes darkly funny, but always clear-eyed and serious about the stakes. Frequent swearing “fucking can,” “shit scared,” “game recognizes game,” signals the show’s unvarnished, real-talk approach (“Arguments, loud arguments, fractious behavior, healthy man...” 57:25).

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End of Summary.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Did Graham Platner rape you?

[C]

By definition, yes, absolutely.

[B]

Because he had non consensual sex with you?

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Forced himself on you

[B]

even after you had told him no and fought him off?

[C]

Yeah. He violated multiple layers of consent that night.

[A]

That is Jenny rasicow speaking to CNN's Jake Tapper about the incident which allegedly happened in 2021. Platner immediately denied the allegations and then announced he was taking time to reflect on his candidacy.

[E]

Any accusation of non consensual behavior is categorically false. Regardless of the inaccuracy of the reporting, but mindful of the political reality it will inflict, we are taking the time to reflect on the best path forward for the state that I love, the people that I love, the movement I belong to, and the goal of defeating Susan Collins.

[A]

While nobody in the Democratic Party seemed to need any time to reflect, the condemnation was swift. Former supporters, including Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, Hasan Piker and Ro Khanna, they all called on Graham Platner to leave the race. Here's one time Platner booster and New York City Mayor Zoran Mamdani speaking at a press availability on Tuesday.

[B]

I believe that it's time for him

[F]

to drop out of the race. You know, I think the focus of

[B]

today should be to respond to the

[F]

gravity of what so many of us have read. And I think that the only appropriate

[B]

response is for the campaign to come to an end.

[A]

If Graham platner withdraws by July 13, which by the way, is this coming Monday. Someone else can run against the incumbent Republican Senator Susan Collins. But Maine Democrats only have until July 27 to appoint that person. And again, that is after Graham Platner exits the race, which he has yet to do. As of this recording, Maine Democrats are growing frustrated.

[C]

Graham Platner's team has repeatedly reached out to us in an attempt to put their thumb on the scale of what this process looks like. We have repeatedly reiterated to Graham Platner's team that they have no role in determining our next Democratic nominee for the U.S. senate. Graham Platner must drop out of this race so that Democrats in Maine can focus on defeating Susan Collins this November.

[A]

If Platner does leave, Democrats have options. There's current U.S. representative Jared Goldin, former State Senator Troy Jackson, former gubernatorial candidate Nirav Shah, Maine Secretary of State Shena Bellows, as well as past Senate hopefuls like former Chief of staff to Congresswoman Katie Porter, Jordan Wood, and brewery owner Dan Kleben, who we will be hearing from in just a minute. Even historian and substacker extraordinaire Heather Cox Richardson is on the list, as is McDreamy actor and Mainer Patrick Dempsey. So there are a lot of names, a lot of work to be done, but also not a lot of time. I'm Alex Wagner. And this week on Runaway country, what should Democrats do in the wake of the platinum disaster? Are there lessons to be learned about candidate selection? And what does this all really mean for Senate control to get into the stakes here and all the possible outcomes? I'm talking to Adam Jentelson, strategist, author and former chief of staff to Senator John Fetterman and former deputy chief of staff to Senator Harry Reid. Democrats are at a crossroads. And recent elections have offered the party conflicting lessons about where the party is headed as well as who and how they should lead it. And Adam is one of the best people in this sordid business to try and help make sense of it all. But first, I wanted to talk to a Mainer who had and maybe will continue to have some skin in this game. Dan Cleban is the co founder of the Maine Beer Company and he briefly sought the Democratic nomination to unseat Susan Collins before he dropped out last fall. And in that is a very interesting backstory. Dan was reportedly told to delay announcing his candidacy for months. And not by his own staff, not by the voters, but by the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, the dscc, which is of course controlled by Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. The DSCC went on to support the candidacy of Maine Governor Janet Mills. And by the time Dan Cleban ultimately announced he was running, well, the race was all platners. Here's our conversation. Well, well, well, Dan, I think this.

[B]

What's going on?

[A]

Yeah, what's going on? I should ask you the same question. This is one of those episodes where I feel like we need to timestamp everything that we say because it's quickly

[F]

moving right after this.

[A]

It's shortly, but it's midday Wednesday and anything could happen. Let's just start with your week. How did the Platner News hit you?

[F]

Like everybody that's tuned into politics, especially up here in Maine, there was a suspicion that something was coming down. And as someone who has been part of this process, obviously people started reaching out to me, whether there be reporters or other political insiders up here in Maine started reaching out to me. One asking if I had heard Anything which I had not. And also starting to ask me, like, look, if this comes to pass, what is the likelihood that you would throw your hat back in the ring? And, of course, at that point, that's kind of premature for me to respond to either of those things. And then the story obviously drops earlier this week, and as you know, Alex kind of all heck broke loose up here.

[A]

What do you think, though? What did you think? Were you, like. Were you surprised?

[F]

No, no, no. I mean, look, I've been paying attention to what's going on, and when I got out of this race, I. You know, I. My goal has always been to beat Susan Collins. That was my number one goal from the moment I got into this race. And when I got out to kind of clear that didn't want to create a crowded primary and through my, you know, threw my weight behind the governor, like, look, there were. There were these signs all along. There were these breadcrumbs. I would call them breadcrumbs. I mean, there were signs all along that there was more there. There. You know, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's probably a duck. And we had suspicions all along that this was gonna keep getting worse. And I think we're at a point now where, you know, these allegations are. I mean, they're extremely serious. I think they're extremely discrediting. He needs to get out of this race, and we need our Democratic Party up here to be able to create a fair and open process to select the next nominee.

[A]

What's the vibe INS Democratic Party? Because he hasn't dropped out. As you point out, Maine Democrats are taking out ads saying, you know, we're trying to start this process. This guy wants to have his thumb on the scale in terms of the selection of his successor. Are people pissed?

[F]

I'm pissed. I mean, look, we've had enough meddling in our politics up here in Maine.

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

From D.C. from New York. These consultants that have come up here and tried to tell Mainers, like, what kind of candidates we need. I think it's time for Graham to get out, to take his thumb off the scale. Let our party create a fair and open process. Let those who want to get in this race get in state their case, and we need to move on. I mean, the real damage here that's been done over the last nine months is we've been talking about everything from our governor's age to a SS Nazi tattoo to serious criminal sexual assault allegations. We have not been talking about Susan Collins.

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

I mean, we need to put this all behind us, we need a fresh start, and we need a candidate that's not tethered to all of this baggage. And we need to start focusing like a laser on Susan Collins and to the damage that she's doing to people here in Maine. And people are, like. All across the country, people are struggling. They can't afford their groceries. They can't afford their rent or their mortgage. They can't afford to take their kids to school. And it's the height of summer here. God forbid they should be able to take their family on a vacation. Yeah, I mean, that's. We need to move. Like. We need to move past this. I mean, you didn't move past it quickly, but in a fair and open way. And, yeah, people are pissed.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I would imagine you, in particular are pissed, given when you talk about meddling. Let's just. For people who aren't familiar with the story of your campaign, walk me through what happened last July when you were trying to launch your Senate campaign.

[F]

Look, I'm. I own a small business here in Maine. I created. Built it from the ground up out of my garage. You know, employ over 100 Mainers, pay a living wage, provide 100% of their health insurance coverage. You know, they've given millions of dollars back to environmentally focused nonprofits and raising a family. And I looked out in D.C. and I'm like, politicians seem more interested in serving themselves than they do their constituents. So I thought I had something to give. I mean, I'm an outsider. I'm not an elected. I'm not a career politician. I've never held elected office. And so, you know, me and my family decided, like, look, I think it's time that we need some fresh voices down in D.C. susan Collins has been there for almost 30 years now. She's forgotten what it's like to look out for the interests of Mainers. And so I was ready to throw my hat in the ring, and we gave courtesy calls to folks, and it was made clear to us in early July as we were about to launch our campaign, that it wouldn't be in our best interests if we did by power Centers down in D.C. and so, you know, look, I'm a team player. Like, you know, I'm like, all right, well, we'll. We'll pause and, you know, kind of see how this. This. This. This shakes out. And, you know, lo and behold, you know, Graham Platner gets in the race, and, you know, the rest of the story kind of tells itself. But, you know, again, you're right. Like, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm sick and tired of DC Trying to come up here to Maine and tell us how to run our process. I'm done with it.

[A]

Do you regret being a team player in that respect?

[F]

Yeah. I mean, I think if, Yeah, I think if I could turn back time, I would have gotten in the race in early July and said, let the chips fall where they will.

[C]

You.

[A]

But you go on, you launch your campaign, Platner's taken off like a runaway train, and then Mills enters the race. You endorse Governor Mills. Can you talk to me a little bit about why you did that?

[F]

I did not seek elected office as a lateral career move. I view this as public service. I want to help the people of my state, and I think beating Susan Collins is important to helping the people of the state I care about so much. And it became clear that a crowded primary field was not in the best interest of the people of Maine. I was happy to step aside, and people know that I endorsed the governor. I thought she had the best chance to be Susan Collins, but that's no longer the case. I mean, it's been quite a whirlwind of nine months. And I'll go back to the fact of, I mean, what really is a shame here is that over the last nine months, we have not been focused on beating Susan Collins and all of the destruction that she's brought, you know, to the people of state of Maine by basically carrying the water of Donald Trump. And we need a clean break with all of it.

[A]

More of my conversation with Dan Cleban right after a quick break. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, we talk about mental health more openly than ever before, but BetterHelp's latest research. Research confirms what most of us already know. Asking for help can still feel hard. Better Help's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, but 74% say society discourages people from doing so. I feel like mental health is one of the things we overlook as a society in terms of our broader health and happiness. And it is something that I try and prioritize every. As I get older and wiser, I encourage my friends to do therapy. I do therapy. I find it helpful, and maybe you will, too. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Do not let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com runawaycountry that is betterhelp.com runawaycountry Runaway country is brought to you by Miracle Maid. Do you ever wake up sweaty, freezing or just uncomfortable? Mm. The temperature in your bedroom can make or break your sleep. Don't I know it. That's why I recommend Miracle made sheets. They are inspired by pre Shawn Duffy NASA technology and use silver infused temperature regulating fabric to help you sleep perfectly all night long. Miracle made sheets stay cleaner and fresher up to three times longer than regular sheets. That means fewer odors, fewer wash cycles and way less laundry. Because who really likes folding those fitted sheets? Not me. Smooth, breathable and ridiculously comfortable. Upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. Go to trymiracle.com Alex to try Miracle made Sheets today you will save over 40% when you use the promo code Alex and you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free 3 piece towel set which makes an amazing gift. And with a 30 day money back guarantee, there's no risk. That's trymiracle.com Alex Code Alex@ checkout. Thanks to Miracle made for sponsoring this episode. Platner's had the momentum for a long time and you made a distinct choice not to endorse him.

[F]

I did.

[A]

Did you have your suspicious. Why was that? I mean, did you have your suspicions? He's an outsider like you. He's an oysterman. Not a, not a. Not a beer guy. But they go together pretty well.

[F]

They do. I will hand it, yes, they absolutely do. Alex, what was.

[A]

Talk to me about your thinking there.

[F]

I like to think that I'm a pretty good judge of character. And I'll be open and honest with you, Alex. And I wasn't the only one up here who had their doubts and suspicions. Like we knew about the Nazi tattoo. He says he didn't know about it until after he started his campaign and it came out. I have reason to believe that's not true, that he knew about it earlier than that. And again, like that's the way I was raised. Like you, I'm a pretty good judge of character and I don't, I don't. I'm not willing to stake my reputation on someone that I don't believe in. You know, the governor for, you know, like people can rail on her age all they want, but what they can't rail on is her character. I mean, she's a thoroughly vetted candidate. She was the first female district attorney attorney general, two term governor. And so she, you know, again, it was about beating Susan Collins. And I had my suspicions that, you know, I hate to say it, that we were gonna end up somewhere close to where we are right now. I hate to say it.

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think a lot of people don't like what's happening right now. Why do you think the voter. But, you know, you had your suspicions. Other people had their suspicions, but the people of Maine, Democratic voters in Maine basically either overrode those suspicions or overlooked them in the primary. And Platner runs away with it. Why do you think that happened?

[F]

Let's set aside, I mean, obviously the personal, I think, deficiencies of Graham Platner. What I think he and his campaign did very well was one, retail politics. I think that. And that was the way that I would have run my campaign and would run a future campaign. I think what people want to know is that you're willing to put the work in. He pounded the pavement, he went into communities, he talked to anybody that wanted to talk to him personally. So that's one and two. I think his message is the same message that I would give, and that is the system is absolutely rigged against working class, hardworking folks. Again, politicians seem to be more interested in serving themselves than they do their constituents. And so I think in some ways the message became more important, more important than the deficiency, the deficiencies of the messenger. And I think people were just kind of. They could overlook or kind of make excuses for the tattoo. You could explain that away. The Reddit posts, you could explain those away. It just finally got to a point where obviously we are where we are now, and you can't explain this stuff away anymore. So I understand, and I'm sympathetic to his supporters because they believed in the message and he was preaching what they wanted to hear. And it's the right gospel to be preaching from.

[A]

Am I wrong to see some silver lining for the Democrats in this? That people were willing to forgive his many shortcomings because they were maybe also so desperate to get Susan Collins out? I mean, do you take any stock in that? Do you think that that's a hopeful sign for people being willing to overlook not having Graham Platner on the ballot? Maybe having someone else that there's a certain level of literally could be. I mean, I'm not saying that you or anybody else who's being mentioned as a potential Successor is like a lamppost, but that it could be like, I'm

[F]

not a lamp post anyone. I'm not.

[A]

But I do. I mean, to me, it's like, you know, you heard in the couple days between the first New York Times story came out and the primary, you just heard this collective sense of not desperation, but just real frustration in Maine, like, we gotta get her out, and he's our best shot, so let's go.

[F]

Yes, I think. I think that's absolutely true. I think. And people are rightly desperate to beat Susan Collins because, I mean, literally, their lives hang in the balance. I mean, they can't. I mean, I've talked to people across this state. I mean, I own a brewery. I have a tap room. I hang out in my tap room after work. I listen Mainers evolve from all walks of life, come into my tap room, and we just shoot the shit. And I hope I can cuss on here.

[A]

No, you certainly fucking can.

[F]

Yeah, we shoot the shit. And, you know, it's every day you hear, like, just, you know, people are pissed off. And Susan Collins, she represents what people are pissed off at. And so I completely understand people's willingness to kind of beat Susan Collins at all costs. That said, I'm actually very proud of our party that we do have a red line somewhere. We know that on the other side,

[A]

unlike some parties, there is no red line.

[F]

And I was. I was frankly worried that our party was heading down that road where we would basically forgive anyone. You know, Donald Trump said, I can walk out onto Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and people wouldn't care. I was worried that that's where the Democratic Party was going to. And that's. I did not want it to go there. And I'm so. I do take. You know, I do. I am proud of the party that we're. There is a red line somewhere. And again. But we need. Now, now that we've reached that red line, we need a clean break. I think he really needs to step aside and allow the party to create a fair and open process. And, I mean, I've heard the stories that he's trying to manipulate or put his thumb on the scale to get in somebody that he would want in. I don't. I don't, frankly, at this point, I don't think he deserves that. I think what Maine deserves, again, is as short of a process as it's going to be something that resembles a fair and open process. But, yeah, I agree with you. I think there is a silver lining in here.

[A]

So you're still in this race, right?

[F]

Yeah, yeah, I'm moving forward. But the problem is Graham's still in the race.

[B]

One so awkward.

[F]

He's the only one that can move this process forward and he has until next Monday. And the party, then they won't release the process until after he drops out. We don't know what that process is. That could dictate a lot of, you know.

[A]

Do you have a sense, you know,

[F]

I have heard anything from. It's going to be like the county committee members, although I've heard the party dispel that myth. You know, we have like 100 or so up here that they would somehow decide it. I think the party is, is wisely not going down that route. I think that what that leaves open is. And I couldn't tell you what this looks like, some sort of, you know, quickly convened convention caucus scenario to take place in late July before the deadline. I think that's probably the most likely. But again, I have no, I have no inside information.

[A]

Have you thought about what a campaign, a two week campaign might look like?

[F]

We have, yeah. I mean, it's a, it'll be a whirlwind. I mean, it'll. But, you know, again, at the end of the day, it will be, you know, me getting back to, you know, the message that I've been sending out. And I've been, I've been out, you know, I have. I put up a sub stack after I suspended my campaign because I wanted to keep my ideas out there. So, you know, I have a substack out there to do what's right. Substack that, you know, we're, you know, we're refreshing. So I have a platform already. I have a team, you know, that, that I had put together that is you know, still, you know, with me and, you know, helping me along the way. But I think once we know the process, I think it'll be, we'll be better able to put together an actual strategy. But I think everybody kind of here is putting the plane together as we're flying, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Not even on the Runway. You're literally on the Runway.

[F]

Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

It makes Kamala Harris. Yeah, it makes Kamala Harris's 107 days look like a lifetime. Do you, do you think Platner has any currency left with Mainers? Like we talk about how he wants to be involved in the selection process. Is that like, is that just ego at this point, or do you think there's legitimate support for him that remains? I mean, I am sure there's a handful of people who are defiantly supporting him. But broadly speaking, do you think that it matters that whoever comes next has his blessing?

[F]

I don't know that that matters so much. You know, I know the party has already come out. I think they came out yesterday and really told him that they will not, they are not going to be influenced by and they, they do not appreciate him trying to weigh in on the process. Our Ed actually posted yesterday, like, which I think is pretty telling. I think they're pretty upset right now with how his camp is, is playing here. I mean, I think he should take. Look, he's been granted a lot of grace along the way and I believe in grace. And you know, I hope he takes this moment to like just bow out and attend to his family and his affairs and let the people of Maine finally have a process that's free of any outside influence. But yeah, I mean, he does still have supporters that I think we'll stick by him that believe in the message. And I think that's a message that I'm certainly going to carry forward. I'm a believer in the American dream. I'm literally living it. I know it's there, but for too many people, they believe it's just a bunch of bullshit. And I think government, I mean, I think needs to regain their trust. They need to be wind at the sails. If you have a good idea, you have a talent and you want to pursue it, that's what makes this country great. Government should be at your back. I think people feel right now government's just putting the Heisman up to you and telling you, no, no, we're going to look out for our billionaire friends. I mean, look what's going on in the White House and in Congress, like it's. The grift is just, it's out of control. And I think people are pissed, you know, and his followers have a right to be pissed. And I hope that, you know, whether it's. Hopefully it's me, but whoever it is, I think needs to carry that mantle forward into the general election to beat Susan Collins.

[A]

Have you talked to Blattner?

[F]

No.

[A]

What a weird time it is to be in Maine.

[F]

No, no, I've never spoken to him.

[A]

Wow. I don't feel like you're going to be talking to him much in the future either, but one should never know.

[F]

And I do, and I say this with all sincerity, I really do hope that he steps out of this race and really takes some time to take care of himself.

[A]

I mean, I really do well, it's one o'. Clock. I have to now say the time is one o' clock on the east coast on Wednesday. So we timestamp this for the purposes of quickly changing political landscape. Daniel, I know we're going to be hearing more from you in the future, or at least the next 14 days, buddy. Thank you for giving us some on the ground insight into what's happening. I'm sorry this is also chaotic. It is insanely interesting if the stakes are preposterously high and we hope it has a great outcome. So for you and for Maine, democracy is messy.

[F]

It's messy, yeah.

[A]

Well, this is particular messy, Dan, but we love Maine. It's a great state. Thank you for your time.

[F]

I'm happy to join you.

[A]

Thanks, Dan. After the break, we'll put this all into context with Adam Gentleson. Today's show is sponsored by Strawberry Me. Listen, we all know someone who is not exactly in their dream career right now. Honestly, sometimes I look around at people and think, how did they get there? What am I missing? For real, here's what nobody really tells you. The most successful people rarely figure it out alone. They have mentors, they have coaches. They have people in their corner who help them think through big decisions and see what they can't see themselves. That is exactly what today's sponsor, Strawberry Me, is all about. It's like therapy for your career. A lot of us know we're capable of more. We just don't know what the next step actually is. I know a lot of people who are skeptical about career coaching at first, but having someone who focuses on your situation and asks the right questions and helps cut through the noise is incredibly valuable. It starts with figuring out what you actually want and not what everyone else expects of you. Then you uncover the blind spots and obstacles that are keeping you stuck. And finally, you build an actual plan instead of waiting for the perfect opportunity to magically appear when you're trying to land a new job or earn a promotion or completely reinvent your career, Strawberry Me gives you a roadmap and a dedicated coach who's with you every step of the way. Scan the QR code on your screen or head to Strawberry Me. Alex to get 50% off your first session. That's Strawberry Me. Alex, Strawberry Me. It's like therapy for your career. Runaway country with Alex Wagner is brought to you by Wild Alaskan company. I feel so much better when I'm eating vitamin packed, fresh, sustainable stuff that is good for my body and soul and oh, what specializes in that But Wild Alaskan company they offer the best way to get wild caught. High quality seafood delivered to one store on one schedule. Each Wild Alaskan box comes with individually portioned filets, vacuum sealed, easy to prep and great for any meal no matter how quick or elevated. All their fish is quick frozen fresh from Alaskan waters, which helps lock in its freshness, texture, flavor and key nutrients like omega 3s. It is fish you can trust with no GMOs or antibiotics or other additives. Every order supports sustainable harvesting practices and Alaskan fishermen whose history is tied to the region and practice. I am never mad at a little salmon, maybe marinated with some teriyaki, but maybe and then roasted or maybe grilled. Even the difficult seven year old in my life will rock that. And thank you to Wild Alaskan for making it possible. Wild Alaskan company is so confident that their fish is the best they offer a 100% satisfaction and money back guarantee. So you can try that first box risk free. Go to wildalaskin.com Alex for $35 off your first order. Of premium wild caught seafood that is wildalaskan.com Alex for 35 bucks off your first order. Thank you to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsor this episode. Joining me now is the great Adam Gentleson in a dinosaur junior T shirt. For those of you not watching on YouTube, you should because the aesthetics are on fleek as the kids would have said five years ago. Adam, thanks for joining me.

[B]

It's great to be here. Alex, good to see you.

[A]

Okay, let's start with the big picture. How shit scared should people be about control of the Senate come November?

[B]

Well, I think probably less than a couple days ago because hopefully we're going to get a replacement nominee in Maine. If for some reason that doesn't transpire, then we should be terrified because that seat is probably unwinnable. So you know, when I say feel okay, that's a very contingent description because Platinum needs to get out and then we need to replace him with somebody who can win this seat. So but I think the reason there I see upside here is that we now have a path to getting a nominee in that seat who can actually win, whereas as of a week ago it looked like that seat was toast. So I'm a little bit more optimistic and I think, look, I don't put too much stock in the calcium markets and stuff, but the markets did go up on Democrats chances of taking the Senate since this in the last 48 hours, since this stuff is broken and it's looked like platner will be replaced. So there's some reason for hope.

[A]

Just to be clear, you thought that it was looking increasingly uphill when Platner was still in the race before the Politico reporting.

[B]

Correct. His numbers were not good. You know, I mean, I know that most of the polls still had him leading by a point or two.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

But when you looked under the hood of those polls, it was pretty grim. Right. I mean, first and foremost, you know, this whole theory that he was going to win a bunch of white working class voters was. Was completely not happening. He was getting crushed by white working class voters, by Susan Collins. Not exactly, you know, someone you think

[A]

has a man of the people.

[B]

Right, exactly. You know, and then, you know, when it being up by a point or two against Susan Collins, who, you know, has a reputation for outperforming her polls, people argue that, you know, some of the circumstances in the past were unique and that wasn't going to happen again. And I think there's validity to that. But at a minimum, she was going to. Republicans were going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on her behalf. And these vulnerabilities were very real. And what you saw with Platner was that there was this narrative that main voters don't care. And I think that was wrong. The stuff that dropped even before this latest round had taken a serious toll. His favorability numbers were terrible. He was already less popular than Susan Collins. And it always seemed likely that there were going to continue to be more hits coming. So that was the basis on which I thought that that race was on a downward trajectory and he was probably going to lose even before this stuff happened.

[A]

This is really enlightening and this is precisely why I wanted to talk to you. Do you think that helps explain the rapidity with which former Platner boosters and leading Democrats. I mean, I'm setting Chuck Schumer aside. We'll talk about him in a moment. But people like Zoran Mamdani or Ro Khanna or Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren came out and rescinded their endorsements so quickly. Or was it really just the bright line of morality that pushed them into this recension?

[B]

I think, you know, sure,

[A]

we're gonna go with that.

[B]

We're gonna go with it. I think it's like a combination of both. I mean, you get this in politics a lot, you know, where it's like, where does self interest, where does sort of morality begin? In self interest end or vice versa? You know, I think. But I do think you're right. I think that this, you know, this sense that he was this sort of savior of, you know, and was gonna sort of create a model for left wing populism was already starting to be pretty threadbare before this stuff hit. So, you know, to the extent he sort of was forging a new path, that was already looking like it wasn't in the cards, you know, look, I think these latest allegations are horrific, and I think you have to credit people for just saying, okay, this is. This is really bad stuff, and we can't support this guy on a moral basis. I thought the stuff. New York Times story was pretty bad, too.

[D]

Yeah, me too.

[B]

Like, that was not good. And especially if you. I mean, the stuff that was in the article about him, you know, forcibly pushing his girlfriend's arm behind her back and forcing her to stay in a room and holding the door shut was really fucking bad. Am I allowed to say the effort?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, it's.

[A]

We encourage it. Yes.

[B]

No, like, you know, like, that's not a who among us. Like, that's a bad thing. Yeah. And like, even that the paragraph in that part of the story was, like, one of the incidents, you know, and then it described that. So that was just one of the times he was physical with her. And then, if you have any ability to read between the lines, you know, Jenny Racio was named in that story, and there were clearly other women who had been abused by him. And so I think that, you know, there was this. This campaign was taking on water for a long time. And look, I also think there's. There's another factor here, which is that he lied to a lot of people. You know, he lied to these senators faces. He went to Washington, D.C. after the first round of negative stories, had a private meeting with these senators, and he told them there was nothing more coming, you know, with a straight face, which

[A]

is totally psychotic, like, in this day and age. First of all, the fact that he. I mean, I'm just taking the smallest kernel here, but Rascoe said in her interview with Politico that she messaged Platner and said that was non consensual sex. I'm paraphrasing. That was non consensual sex. I never want to hear from you again. And he. First of all, he never said anything to her ever again, which is just, like, exemplary. Allegedly this exemplary of, like, a really shitty dude, if not actually someone worth pursuing criminal charges against. But also it was a sign that he knew these messages were out there, that there was. I mean, she may not have been able to produce that Instagram message because she deleted a lot of them. But for all he knew, this stuff was all gonna come out, right?

[B]

I mean, this is like, you know, listen, I am saying this as somebody who supported him at the beginning, right. I actually, actually met him through some extended family who have a. Who have a house up in Blue Hill. I've been. I had gone to his mom's restaurant unknowingly, you know, years ago and met him, you know, through. Through extended family last summer. And I was taken with him too, at first, you know, and certainly when the only choice was Janet Mills, who I thought was also a disaster and probably would have lost to Susan Collins as well, you know, I thought he was the better choice. But, you know, over the spring, as this stuff started to come out, the way he talked about it just seemed like he was lying, you know, and you could. He had this sort of dead eyed ability to just sort of lie. Like his interview with Chris Hayes.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I texted Chris afterwards and I said, dude, he's lying.

[F]

Yep.

[B]

I had the same reaction, you know, and I was just like. And, but, but to your point, the ease with which he does it was unnerving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and it, and it felt like this is a guy who is used to lying without hesitation and is used to having his lies believed by everybody around him and then having sort of the apparatus in his life. You know, look, maybe his family kind of ran out of money. You know, he's what a friend of mine calls a last mile wasp. Like, you know, the other generation spent the money and there wasn't much left for him, you know, but nonetheless, we

[A]

call him a hornet around here. We call them hornets or yellow jackets.

[B]

That's good. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. You know, but still, you get a lot of the trappings of that life. He went to Hotchkiss, you know, his parents were connected. So I think, you know, to me there's an element of that to it too, which is like, this is a guy whose family, even if they didn't have a ton of money left by the time he was growing up, had a lot of connections, probably pulled a lot of strings on his behalf. And so through a combination of his charisma and his gall, he was just used to being able to lie his way out of situations. And like you said, I mean, clearly thought he could get away with running for Senate in one of the most high profile races in the country with all this stuff in his past, you

[A]

know, and this, it's really a Specific kind of psychological profile, and it's sort of psychotic one at that.

[B]

And it's down, though. I mean, I'm not a psychologist, but like, you know, verges on sociopathy. That's, you know, to be able to do it. You could probably pass a lie detector test. You know, I don't know. Like, it's, it's, it's unnerving.

[A]

Which brings us to the current moment. And again, we're recording this on Wednesday afternoon. It's entirely possible that he'll drop out tonight or tomorrow. There are some new reporting saying there are deliberations happening inside the Platner campaign, which that reporting isn't that different than the reporting we've gotten from the main Democrats that say the Platner campaign is trying to figure out a way to influence what happens next. Whether that's process, candidate policy, whatever you've worked on campaigns, you know what the sort of blood sport of politics is like. Can you give me your best guess on what they're weighing at this point? It's really hard for me to imagine what currency they imagine they still have left. Because the longer this goes on, the more his standing falls in the eyes of, I would imagine, even his supporters.

[B]

No, yeah, that's right. I mean, you know, even before this, right before the primary, you had a lot of his supporters saying, I don't love voting for him, but I'm going to vote for him because I would crawl over broken glass to beat Susan Collins. Right, so you already had softness in his numbers. I've heard that, you know, some of the early polls that have been done since then have shown, you know, the bottom completely falling out of his support. So, you know, look, technically he can stay in the race past Monday and that would be very bad because then his name would be on the ballot and so you'd have to, you know, print do a write in campaign or something, which, you know, has been done. Lisa Murkowski did that in Alaska and succeeded. Like, it's not impossible.

[A]

It's a huge risk, though. I mean, he will become the most hated Democrat in the country.

[B]

Right. And that's why I, that's why I think, you know, he technically has leverage because technically he can stay in. But I don't think that's a real possibility. I don't think he's going to stay in. He's out of money, you know, he's completely abandoned in terms of support. So I think that, you know, he's likely gonna get out maybe by the time this airs, and that's just, that's the reality. What they're trying to do though, is parlay that leverage into, you know, getting their preferred person in his slot.

[A]

Why? But why? Can I just ask why? It's not like he's gonna go campaigning with that person. I mean, he's dead weight at this point, isn't he?

[B]

Well, the theory is that, I mean, yes, like, you know, he, he has said that, you know, I guess he's not set it outright, but there have been a lot of reports that were obviously coming from his camp that Troy Jackson is his preferred pick. He's the person that Graham Platner endorsed for governor. So, you know, that's, that seems to be credible reporting. And the theory is that, you know, Graham is not just a person, he's a movement. And, you know, the movement should be passed on to the person he endorsed who's the closest ideologically to him. And I will tell you why I don't buy that. Because, you know, on primary day, Maine voters went to the polls and they voted in the Senate race and they voted in the governor's race. Right? And 156,000 Mainers voted for Graham Platner. And then Troy Jackson, the guy who he says is supposed to be, you know, the inheritor of his mantle, only got about 45,000 votes. So over 100,000 people who voted for

[A]

Grant Platinum rejected that part of the movement.

[B]

Troy Jackson, you know, that's over two thirds of the people who voted for Platinum. So clearly Maine voters don't see Troy Jackson as the inheritor to Graham More. You know, they voted for Hannah Pingree and they voted for Nirav Shah. You know, so this idea that you have to, you know, transfer his ideology over doesn't strike me as credible. Look, I think there are a lot of people who've got a lot riding on this race and professionally and otherwise. And Jackson is the one most likely to sort of keep that going. So there may be an element of that too, but I think you got to just have an open process here. And certainly being the hand picked successor of Graham Platner would be a massive millstone for this person against Susan Collins, which is bad for the rest of us. So I think you just gotta, you know, he's gotta exit the stage, get the fuck away from this process.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let main voters figure out what they want to do.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, maybe it's about the movement, but this is someone who wasn't involved in politics, was kind of had two operatives knock on his door and convince him to Run and has sacrificed the basic principles. I mean, really has sacrificed potentially a Democratic victory given his own skeletons in the closet. Like, it's very hard for me to believe that this is about the movement and not about ego and just feeling like I have, have a say in this. I'm not nothing, I'm not gone, like totally.

[B]

I mean that, that's, it's so crazy that we are spending so much time and energy on the main Senate race here, right? Like it was never going to be easy. Susan Collins is a beast as an, as a politician. Like, I respect her game, you know, like she's game, recognized game, recognized game, man. I mean she, she survives tough elections, you know, she, she manages to defy when the GOP's brand is in the toilet, she manages to, to defy it. You know, I think this was probably, you know, the, the, the amount that the national environment favors Democrats now probably means that she's toast. If we just had like a normal

[A]

person, not a rapist, not an alleged

[B]

rapist, not a rapist, not a, you know, wannabe cosplaying, you know, working class guy. And you see that in other races, right? Like it's insane that Maine is within one point when you have Roy Cooper absolutely dominating in North Carolina, you know, and you've got Josh, Mary Peltola in Alaska, you know, just putting on a show like we are competitive in deep red states. Kamala Harris won Maine by seven points, I think something like that. And you know, this race, if you just had a normal person who could go around every day and say Susan Collins is a Donald Trump loyalist, she's supported him all the way. Like all you have to do is get all the people who voted for Kamala Harris in 2024 to vote for our Senate candidate in 2026. That's the ball game, right? So it's, you know, it's going to be challenging and Susan Collins has a ton of money behind her, but, but that race should be pretty much in the bag, you know, and, and we need to focus on, this is an opportunity to expand the map for Democrats and we need to be able to put our focus and our resources, you know, on expanding the map.

[A]

More of my conversation with Adam Jentelson in just a second, a moment. But first at Crooked, we believe the answer to right wing authoritarianism is a big, welcoming, super fun pro democracy movement. So join us at CrookedCon on November 5th through 7th in D.C. just after the midterms. We think you'll want to meet all the like minded folks there. To commiserate, learn from each other, politely disagree, impolitely disagree, enthusiastically agree, laugh at JD Vance, have a drink or two and see if we can get a functional winning party out of the deal. Join us for more panels across bigger stages, plus candidate forums, live shows and interviews, organizing events and fun social stuff too. Sounds just crazy enough to work. Friends of the Pod subscribers can get an exclusive discount on the all day event on November 7th. In addition to many other perks we cannot wait to tell you about. Go to crookedcon.com for more details and to grab your tickets. Runaway country is brought to you by honeylove. I love my honeylove bras. I mean, do you need to hear me go on about this more? I could do it every week. They are so comfortable. I hate sports bras that you have to pull over your head, they suck and they mess up your hair. And that is not the case with honeylove. They make comfortable bras that have the good old hook and clasp. They look good under T shirts. They look good in life. And honeylove is an independent female founded brand. Their new crossover Contour bra that combines their best selling wireless design with molded foam cups. Yeah, to help create a smooth and natural shape. Especially helpful for mature breasts. That's a phrase you don't hear that often. Mature breasts that may want a little extra structure and support. Mature breasts that have maybe had a couple kids. At the end of the day, this isn't about changing your body. It is about supporting that great body in a way that actually feels good. And Honey Love delivers that at every single stage. So treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off [e-mail] Alex that's honeylove.com ALX after you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Experience the new standard in comfort and support with Honey Love.

[G]

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[D]

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[G]

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[D]

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[G]

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[A]

I will hazard a guess as to why this has mattered more than it should, independent of the allegations and the sensationalism, is because Democrats, I think, thought they had found their answer to maga. Right. Platner represented more than just a viable contender. He represented what the left's version of kind of white, working class masculinity looked like. And now that it's all blown up, it's asking, it's prompting some real questions about, like, okay, well, first of all, what is. How do we pick candidates? How do we recruit them? What does it mean to be, like, a warrior and have that fighting kind of spirit, but also not an alleged rapist and sexual assaulter? Right. And like, it's opened this kind of Pandora's box. That's really. The timing of it is very unfortunate. I think everybody would rather just, like, win the Senate, win the House, take control of the legislative branch, and then figure out the ideology and the path forward later. Right. Has the kind of shooting fish in a barrel nature of the candidate. The Platner recruitment made you rethink how Democrats should try and recruit candidates. Are you drawing any broader lessons about how the party should operate in the wake of this?

[B]

Yeah, I think a couple of things. I mean, look, you know, there is a grain of truth to this, which is that the establishment is cooked. You know, I mean, you know, Chuck Schumer may end up coming out of this, you know, with a pretty decent track record, but, like, you know, his idea of what makes. But he's the one who recruited Janet Mills and cleared the field of other, you know, contenders for Janet Mills. So part of the reason we got Platner was that there were no other appealing candidates in the race. And that was because Chuck Schumer said, Right, we did.

[A]

We talked to one of them at the beginning of the show who was trying to run. And then the DSCC said, hold your fire. Keep your powder dry. We're getting behind Janet Mills.

[B]

Dan Cleveland, I will continue to enjoy your delicious beer, you know, but I do, you know, wonder about what could have been, you know, and, you know, I think so. So that's, you know, that's correct. It's correct. The establishment is cooked. It's correct that the idea, you know, Janet Mills was going to be the oldest senator on the day she was elected and clearly didn't really want to run. You know, she had to have her arm twisted to get in the race. And so the establishment's push to get her in the race was. Was a problem to begin With. So I think, I don't think it's wrong like we, we should be careful to, to draw the right lessons here and not overcorrect. Right. It's, it's not wrong to expand our field of vision about what kinds of candidates could succeed. You know, and I think there, there are, you know, a lot of good examples of that. Even, even right now, you know, you've got someone like Bobby Polito in Texas, you know, of Tejano music star. You've got Bob brooks in Pennsylvania's 7th district running in a swing scene Pennsylvania, who's a, you know, a union member, a snowplow driver, a firefighter, a bartender, you know, and both of those guys are putting red seats in play, and neither of those guys are conventional candidates. Right. So it's not wrong to say that. But yes, you have to do the vetting. You still have to approach it from a professional standpoint. And the recklessness with which this crew approached this race. And then part of it too, was that they were reckless. And then they called everybody who questioned them, you know, corrupt or immoral or, you know, insufficiently loyal to liberal views. Like, it's just too much, you know, and so I think that the, the idea of looking for different kinds of candidates is correct, but the establishment needs to take those lessons and update and look for new blood. But, but you know, the people who got us into this mess certainly should, you know, exit stage left and you know, the rest of us should, should be careful about not overcorrecting and being smart and analytical about, about what lessons to draw here.

[A]

Do you think Maine has a hangover effect on other. Well, I'm thinking of Michigan, right, where you have an outsider, Abdul Al Said versus Haley Stevens, who's, I'm, I, I, I, an insider insofar as she's an elected official. Do you think, I mean, all politics is national. Do you think that this affects the way people make their decisions there? Especially now that Mallory McMorrow is out and her, her supporters seem legitimately split between Abdul and Haley.

[B]

I definitely do. I think, I think, you know, Abdul is, is asking people to, you know, take a risk. He is a, he is an admirable political athlete. You know, again, game respect game, like the guy's got talent and I, you know, do I think he could win in this favorable environment? Sure. You know, I, barring any massive scandals. You know, this is, I'm not calling him an idiot, but, but this is, this is almost like an idiot proof environment where it's like if you are a Democrat with no major scandals. And you're. When. If the generic ballot is D above 10, you know, like, you kind of can't fuck it up.

[A]

You're gonna. We'll. We'll timestamp that statement, too.

[G]

Sure.

[B]

But here's the thing, is that. Is that. So I just want to be careful to say that I. I'm not saying that I don't think Abdul El Said can win. I think that's. That's entirely possible. I think that when you look at his numbers, it's notable to me that he's had trouble breaking past the sort of low to mid-40s, even as McMorrow has really faded. Right. And so, you know, that, to me, suggests that there's still some softness there and that people do have a lot of hesitation. There's still a lot of undecided voters out there. You know, he has really documented dominated the narrative for the last, I don't know, six weeks or more. And I think there's a disconnect there. Like, his numbers should be better. He's posting margins in the single digits against Haley Stevens, who, by the way, I'm not particularly impressed by either. So I'm not going to sit here and say that I think she's manifestly the clear choice on electability. But your question was about whether this has a hangover effect. And, yeah, I think Abdul's numbers have been kind of soft. I think Haley has been making the case that. That she's more electable. You know, the debate last night, I think, was kind of a draw. So I could see people saying, look, you know, El Said is asking us to take a risk here. You know, Haley Stevens is familiar. We are just going to go the safe route. Yeah. Now that we are, you know, seeing what happens in Maine when you do take the risk. We're going to. We're going to, you know, take the safe route here.

[A]

I wonder, kind of how you think that filters down to races across the country, too, because we're at a moment pre Platner, or at least this Politico story where Trump's been calling the Democrats Communists because of their elevation of a lot of Democratic socialist candidates, their big wins last week in New York and Colorado. There are other DDSA races with DSA Socialist candidates in Michigan and Wisconsin. There's a difference between, obviously, there's a difference between being an insider and an outsider versus a socialist and a centrist. But the two are often twinned. Right. Outsider, socialist, insider, centrist. And as it pertains to how we think of the party. Where do you think the chips should be placed? Like, does it, first of all, does it worry you that Trump is calling Democrats communist? Is that a problem? Do you think that's an effective line of attack?

[B]

They do that all the time, you know, and look, it sticks if you also call yourself a socialist. You know, like, there are a lot of cats out there saying, yeah, communist, but they're saying, yeah, I am a socialist. So, you know, they will stick to them. I don't, I think that, I don't think it, it is guaranteed to hurt the Democratic brand. And here's, here's why. I, I am sort of a big tent absolutist, right? I really do believe in building a big tent. And I think that that big tent is going to include people that you don't like. I mean, you know, when we, when we passed the New Deal, we had, you know, communists and white supremacists all in the Democratic coalition, right?

[A]

And white supremacists no longer have the invite. I'm just going to go ahead and

[B]

say that, like, people don't like to talk about, you know, what that coalition looked like. That's part of the reason we were able to do that stuff. Yes. Update, update us for 2026. You know, and nobody's saying white supremacists, but I think that, like, you know, you, you can, you can broaden your scope. So I, I'm saying I, I think DSA should be in the tent. You know, I think that's fine. And I think that, you know, I, I think on their end they should be open to having people who are, you know, more heterodox and more conservative in the tent because that's what's going to win in deeper red states. So, like, if everybody is cool with everybody else being the tent, that's a good situation. I do think that once everybody's in the tent, everybody should be able to say what they think about everybody else in the tent and Democrats should. If they don't believe in the socialist ideas or some of the far left stuff that the socialists believe in, they should just say so and say so, you know, with their full chest. Like, that's part of what we did wrong in 2020 was that nobody thought defund the police was a good idea. Very fun. Very few Democrats actually endorsed the idea, but they were kind of quiet about it, Right. They sort of, you know, swallowed their words. Even Biden took, you know, a week or two to say he disagreed with it. And then when he did it was sort of like, you know, a quick statement and move on. Like, say loudly what you believe. You know, everybody should just say their, their own beliefs out loud. And, you know, then it doesn't hurt the national brand if there are some DSA people in it. Because, you know, James Talarico in Texas is going to be like, I think those ideas are stupid. I disagree with them. You know, and that's, and that's fair is fair.

[F]

That's.

[B]

That's literally just people saying what they think out loud. That might be a radical concept, but I think it's, it's a pretty good way to do politics.

[A]

Do you have a sense of, like, what worldview is ascendant? Because I think a lot of people will say, well, right now DSA is ascendant. But then we look at Mikey Sherrill and Abigail Spanberger's victories last year, which was not that long ago, nine months ago, and you would say, oh, well, centric, like centrists in purple states. That's the, that's or, you know, bluish reddish states.

[C]

That's.

[A]

That's the winning hand. Do you have a feeling about where the party is actually headed should it regain control of Congress?

[B]

I'm an optimist, Alex, and I, I think, I think big tentism is ascendant. I think heterodoxy is ascendant.

[A]

Arguments, loud arguments, fractious behavior, healthy man.

[B]

You know, part of, part of, you know, I've made this case against interest groups, and part of it is that, like, they just, they tell you you can't say what you think, you know, and I think that's deeply unhealthy. I think we need to have a party that, where everybody just says what they think and they don't get called terrible names for it. You know, it's just everybody being honest about what they think. Like moderates, you know, should, should be able to say what they think, and lefties should be able to say what they think. And then we shouldn't call each other corrupt. We shouldn't call each other, you know, communists or whatever, you know, bad names. The mods call the. Call the lefties. I think that because, look, in New York, the same primary night that you had Darieliza and Claire winning, you also had Kate Conley winning in New York, 17th district, who is not a far left candidate. The 17th district is a swing district currently represented by Republican Mike Lawler. And so New York voters said, okay, for these districts that are literally nicknamed the Commie Corridor, we're going to elect the DSA candidates, fine. You know, and the people they replaced were also pretty far to the left. So it was like switching out, like, with, like, pretty, you know, just sort of younger. And then in the 17th district, where we actually have to unseat a Republican, they elected the more centrist Kate Connelly. So I think, you know, those. The Kate Conley's race didn't get nearly as much attention. It's just not as much catnip for national reporters.

[A]

Well, it's just like people have forgotten that Abigail Spanberger and the Virginia, you know, the Virginia State Senate and Maggie Sherrill, I mean, those were huge stories at the time, but people have forgotten them in part because they're taking the bait from Trump, which is focusing on the commie left.

[B]

But that's big tent. A big tent has Kate Connelly and Darieliza, and that's where I think we're headed. And that's, to me, a healthy thing.

[A]

It's going to require a deft hand at the top. Which gets me to my question. We're talking about a leader in the party who's managing the raucous caucus in a way that allows people to feel heard, feel like they can make their voice their point mate, they can make their points and are part of an inclusive and fair process to get to an end result. Chuck Schumer's the guy that was calling candidates, or the DSCC was the group that was calling candidates and telling them not to run in Maine. He's not known exactly for. I mean, sometimes he'll let, like, everybody chat it out. Sometimes he'll let people go rogue. But is he the right person to manage a kind of Senate like that, the big tent Democratic Party?

[B]

Honestly, I got to give you my honest opinion here. I don't think so. I think, look, Chuck, I have a long relationship with him, going back to my days working for Harry Reid, where we worked closely together. I honestly have a lot of respect for what he's accomplished as leader and his legacy. I think we've got a really good chance of having a strong cycle here, maybe even taking back the Senate, especially if we can resolve the situation in Maine. That would be a great time to go out on top of, you know, and I think, I think that that's, there's a lot of upside to doing that. I mean, when I worked for Harry Reid, he decided not to run for reelection in 2016 when he was 76, I think, you know, so younger than a lot of these folks who are

[A]

hanging on spring chicken.

[B]

That's Right. Basically. And, you know, look, I would, you know, because he decided to step aside on his own. He got to define his legacy. We got to do this, you know, this whole farewell tour. You had all these people doing tributes and, you know, and there was. There was sort of a tone of people saying, well, we appreciate you stepping aside so the next generation can take over. You know, and that was the 100%, the right call. You have folks who hang on for too long and, you know, you. It's, it's like a. It's a. It's an easy way or hard way situation. Look at what's happening with Mitch McConnell right now.

[A]

Well, I did want. Yeah. Is he alive? Do you think he's alive?

[B]

I think he is probably, you know, the heart might still be ticking, but I think he's. He's probably not either, you know, I don't know, brain dead on a ventilator or something, but I don't think he's coming back.

[A]

And these reports that people spoke to him on the phone about Iran and foreign policy are just lies, or he was physically present on the phone but not talking, maybe?

[B]

Something like that. Yeah. I mean, look, I, you know, I've been through a few medical episodes in my life. I, you know, there, there are ways to phrase things that sort of get around, you know, aren't strict lies, you know, but, but I think that, you know, I don't think he's coming back.

[A]

We live in hell. Like, what are we even talking about weekend bernieing? Like, us, one of the senior, the elders of the Republican Party? To what end? I mean, all of this is just like, why? To prevent Thomas Massie from running for his seat.

[B]

People, I think, I think, I think when you get to that age, you have a. Especially you've been in the Senate for 30, 40 years like McConnell has, you have a really hard time envisioning what life is like without the Senate.

[A]

You know, I mean, but he's not envisioning anything.

[B]

I know he's not, but he should have. You know what I mean? Like, he shouldn't have. He should have stepped down and he should have just walked away. Like, you just, you have to. You have to decide to not run again at a point where you still probably could run again. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's where you need to make the decision and decide to have another chapter in your life. And I think that that's hard to do for a lot of these folks. You know, the Senate is, you know, it's A, it's a great senior living facility. I mean, you got daily activities, there's a gym, there's a gym. You got people, you know, bringing you food, attending to your every need. You know, having, you know, you know, having social hour and catered lunches. You know, it's not, it's pretty good. But you know, you just gotta, you gotta choose to, to step away from that which I think is hard while you are still compost mentis and you know, probably could run and win again. And I think that's what's, that's what's challenging for folks.

[A]

Well, in the meantime, you have a support staff of people propping you up and pretending you are not brain dead perhaps. What a strange time in which we live. Adam Gentleson Absolutely.

[B]

Well, just kind of keep trying to muddle through here.

[A]

Listen, I'm going to take to heart what we started this conversation with, which is it is revelatory. The idea that the exit of Graham Platner could actually just be a really great thing for Democrats and increase the chances that they are gonna take the Senate in 2026. That's like a fresh perspective on this that I think is sorely needed as people rip out their hair and wonder if this is the end, no way

[B]

out but through, you know, and I think we can get there.

[A]

Adam Jendelson, the wise man in a dinosaur junior T shirt. Again, if you are not watching this on YouTube, you are missing out. Thank you buddy for offering some, some really keen insight on a strange situation.

[B]

Always a pleasure, Alex.

[A]

That's our show for this week. Please don't forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway country with Alex Wagner. And if you're not sick of me yet, take a look at my substack, how the hell with Alex Wagner. Last but not least, if you've been impacted directly by the Trump administration and its policies, send us an email or a one minute voice [e-mail] and we may be in touch to feature your story. Big thanks to everyone who has written in already. Runaway country is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Ilona Minkowski, Emma Ilech, Frank Haley Jones and Anisha Banerjee, with help from Eric Schutt, Kenny Moffat and Charlotte Landis. Production support from Ben Hethcote, Katie Long, Adrian Hill and Matt De Groat. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[G]

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