← The Windup: A show about Baseball
The Windup: A show about Baseball
Starkville | Best Of Edition- Max Scherzer talks ABS, Robo umps and much more
00:46:14
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Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree. Zoe, this thing weighs a ton. Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man. Santa. Santa, did you get my letter? He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not.
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Of course he did.
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Greetings and welcome to Starkville Baseball hall.
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B
Of Famer Jason Stark.
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D
And then the robot said strike.
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C
That's why you're going in the hall of Fame hits it inside the park.
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E
Over on Douglas Mike Trout is coffee at Starbucks with a double latte. Skinny.
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D
Doug, are you ready to make some podcast magic?
- [02:29]
E
I am ready. Bring on the magic wand. Let's do it.
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D
You are listening to the Best of Starkville. We had so many interviews this year that we loved. We picked out a few that you might have missed so you could get a second chance to listen to them during the holiday season. So we hope you enjoy them.
- [02:56]
C
And.
- [02:56]
D
And thanks for listening to Starkville, Doug. I look forward to every show we do and every guest who stops by to visit us, but I am not sure that I have ever looked forward to any show or any guest more than this one. Let's welcome in today's very special special visitor to Starkville, it's the great Max Scherzer. Max, thanks for fitting us into your busy schedule.
- [03:29]
C
Jason, thanks for having me on.
- [03:31]
D
So, Max, I have told you for years, you're my favorite pitcher to watch in the whole sport. That hasn't changed. You know, that passion, that intensity that you put into every second that you're out there is what it's all about. If you love baseball and that little stomp you take around the mountain after a strikeout, it's just so epic. Has the pitch clock made it tougher for you to take that stomp?
- [03:58]
C
Well, I appreciate the kind words. I'm glad that you appreciate my craft and I've definitely appreciated your covering of baseball over the years, what you've done and furthering the game and connecting with the fans, you know, get in front of players and how you connect with fans. I think you have some pretty good takes and you're an important voice within the game. So I definitely enjoy coming on here and talking with you. As for the stomp around the mound, no, I think I got enough time. It's not that for drawing out, but I guess a little bit with runners on base, that 32nd clock. Yeah, I can get into it a.
- [04:30]
D
Little bit for starters.
- [04:32]
E
Just, I mean, how have you done it with this level of longevity? So many different organizations? I mean, you had a stretch of many years where you had between 2013, 2018, 200 innings or more. You know, what are your goals given that you have this track record? You're still on the hill.
- [04:47]
C
I don't set, like, results goals. That's not how I think. I think more about process. You know, I'm thinking, hey, just stay healthy, make your starts, get up there. Not even trying to put a number on it. Just be healthy. If you can go out there and then worry about how I'm executing my pitches, am I locating the ball, am I sequencing, am I doing everything I, you know, taking into account of where I need to get the pitches and the locations I get them to, the results will take care of themselves. So for me, I'm more focused on what I can do and how I can go out there about that. As you know, when you say, you know, what's, you know, the 200 innings, everything. Yeah, I mean, I always say that one of the reasons I've been the durable starter is that I'm an athlete first. I think this goes back to kids and what kids are doing today, that I wasn't just a baseball player. I played football, I played basketball, I was an athlete. You know, I just happened to play a little bit more baseball. Yeah, I was good at baseball, but in high school, you know, I was trained to be all a three sport athlete. Then I got to college and then I went into, you know, complete baseball and weight training program. Obviously, then I really took off. But I really feel like having that foundation of being an athlete first, I feel like that's my secret sauce of why I've been durable. You know, I can train. I'm an athlete, so I can absorb the stress of the mound. You know, I don't think I'm just a freak show. I'm just, I can, I'm an athlete and I can absorb the stress and that's why I don't break, you know.
- [06:03]
D
John Schneider, who's the manager of the Blue Jays, told me that you stop by his office almost every day for 15 to 30 minutes. So, like, did you even know John Schneider before you got to Dunedin this spring? And have you always done that?
- [06:18]
C
No, I haven't known John. I didn't know personally know John. You know, when it comes to the manager, what I found is being kind of being a veteran player, especially as I got older in my career, I was really kind of the oldest player kind of in the locker room or one of the top three oldest guys and especially on the pitching staff. Yeah. Do you actually do need a relationship with the manager? You got to be able to communicate different things that are going on. You got to be able to hear sometimes what's coming from the manager side, you know, what's coming from up top, and then hear it because he can't go in and talk to the clubhouse every single day. Sometimes words that come out of, let's say, the manager's mouth to the player, it doesn't always sound right. Sometimes if I'm kind of that buffer that, hey, I can communicate what's going on. You know, if you talk to a young guy or some other player, you say, hey, this is what they're thinking. I, I see what they're doing. You know, they, they see xyz. This is why we're doing xyz. I think that helps the club out some. Plus it's a two way street. You know, there might be something going on where a player might not want to, you know, not ratting out of the clubhouse, but like, hey, these things are going on. Hey, this is what we need to address. This is how we, hey, we need to think about the travel, you know, like, hey, we need to move our plane. We don't want to fly on the off day, we want to fly right after the game. You know, stuff like that. Just kind of all the little different stuff that's going on within a team in a clubhouse that you kind of got to give the feedback back up to, you know, the manager and going back up the chain to help make decisions. And then that's when the clubhouse flows. That's when everything works, is when, you know, the front office and the players are all working together from the veteran side, then the veterans can work it down to the rest of the team. And that's when just the team functions at its best.
- [07:44]
D
Yeah, players of your stature, it's great when they do that. So do you have a favorite or a most memorable conversation ever from one of your pre game or spring training visits to the manager's office?
- [07:59]
C
Yes. No. But like, if I did tell you, I'd be reviewing some secrets here. What's going on? Different things I think about, but I mean, the overarching. No, because you're, you're playing the day, you're just understanding where you're at within a day. You know, like, hey, it's early this, it's spring. Think about it like this. Or you know, hey, this player's not doing it, or like, hey, this is what's going on. Hey, these are, you're just getting in touch with the pulse of the team and keeping on track with that. So it's never, it's not necessarily high level stuff that we're ever talking about. It's really kind of more just mundane kind of, you know, stuff within the weeds. That kind of, that, you know, that's where kind of a lot of frustrations kind of happen within teams. You know, where you get this rental when this gets into August, you know, when everybody starts losing their mind, like, all right, at Least we have some baseline of, hey, this is how we should be operating.
- [08:47]
E
I always am curious about the spring training speeches, right? Because, you know, I went to a lot of them, I've heard a lot of them, and everybody assembled the best team ever, the best coaching staff ever. And so you've heard a lot of them, different organizations. Is anything memorable, takeaways that. That you kind of stays with you some of these spring training speeches?
- [09:07]
C
No, I mean. I mean, you. You want somebody who can communicate well to the team, but you actually kind of remember sometimes some of the other things. I know what I'm thinking of when you say that is Bob Henley. He kind of ran camp and had some unbelievable talks and things that he was saying. He had everybody rolling. It was a comedy, you know, comedy every single day. So I think everybody has the hoorah speech, like, oh, we're the best. We're gonna win everything. When you realize you start playing baseball, we're actually looking for more humor. We actually need more humor in our lives. And we're all laughing at the same jokes and thinking about it and letting that happen. And that's typically when the teams become, you know, a team, is when everybody's laughing at the same jokes.
- [09:45]
D
All right, well, speaking of humor and jokes, the other day you went out to pitch against the Phillies, and we had some hijinks going on. Is hijinks one of the best words ever or what?
- [09:57]
C
I love that.
- [09:57]
E
It is the best word.
- [09:59]
D
But anyway, you throw your first pitch of the game to your friend Trey Turner. It's practically right down the middle, and.
- [10:07]
E
He still challenges it.
- [10:10]
D
I feel like I might have had something to do with that, since after your previous start, I'd ask you some questions about those robot ups, and you said some stuff, and I know Trey and a bunch of the Phillies had read that stuff. So first of all, if that's my fault, I'm sorry.
- [10:26]
C
Oh, that was hysterical to me. Trey really threw me for a loop there, because I thought he was going to walk into the play and try to hit a homer off me. I was like, here you go. Here's your first pitch. Fastball, please. Hit it as far as you can. And when he didn't swing at, my first reaction was like, dang. Hey, come on. What are you doing? I was actually kind of mad at Trey. Like, why aren't you swinging? And then I see him tapping his head like, oh. It messes me even more. Like, oh, all right, you got me. Point, Trey. You win.
- [10:55]
D
So if you and Trey had some contact with each other, since. I'd be really disappointed if you haven't.
- [11:00]
C
Yeah, we saw each other after the game, so we had a good laugh. We got so much history together, and there's so many guys on the Phillies that we have history with, and especially with K. Long there, you know, he's there. DC with me. So we all add each other on. We're all. There's so much heat going on behind the scenes of all the different players. And, you know, for us in spring training, you know, we're just getting our flow back on, so we're. We're way more open to have a lot more fun during the game.
- [11:24]
D
Yeah, and we're all for it, man. All right, so let's talk about robots, abs, challenge system. You've been portrayed as not being a fan of this, so let me just ask you. That is. Would you say that's an accurate description?
- [11:39]
C
All right, so let's start from the beginning on where this all is, because really, this stems back to my conversations when I was on the competition committee. This conversation goes back five, six years ago when I was on the competition committee. And, you know, we're discussing these issues. You know, one of the things that we saw, you know, when we brought in replay, you know, I think the singular moment when we realized as an industry, like, we need replay in the game, was a mono gal raga play. You know, that's the famous call. You know, at that point in time, for me, that was when, like, okay, we gotta. We gotta get these calls right? And we did, and replay came in, and now we get the calls right at first base, you know, 100% of the time, like, that's great. I think as an industry, I think everybody involved looks at the game now, and we want the calls right at first base 100% of the time. I think that's a great thing. But what's been with the unintended consequence of replay is now when you slide in the second, you can be safe by a mile, and you're just sliding in and you kind of pop up and your cleat comes off one inch, and all of a sudden you're, you're out.
- [12:34]
E
You're singing to a base stealer. You're, you're, you're giving my speech, man.
- [12:38]
C
I love it, Right? That, to me, that's a negative about replay. So that's what I was going to ask Doug. Do you think that's a good part of. Of the change of the game? Is that good?
- [12:48]
E
No, that part. I, I don't Love, I don't think that was even the intention, right? The fact that you're. You're going in and a micrometer, you come off the bag and. And because once again, you're also trying to get a tempo and a flow. And so, no, I don't think that was the intention, but it's like you have the technology, you use it, and the guys are tagging and holding the glove on you for that reason.
- [13:09]
C
Right. I think we both agree, like, when we put in replay, we weren't thinking about that play. We were thinking about the guy. Raga play corrected, egregious call. Not invent some new way that's going on with the game. You start thinking about ABS here. Okay? Where are some other things that go on with the strike zone? I say here we want, like, a laser, we want perfection. But in reality, when we're talking about, you know, the pitches coming across the plate at 95 miles an hour, and for the fan experience, too, like, they see the catcher catch the ball, and that's a human element part of the game. A human element part of strike zone. That, hey, that's actually, I think a good feature of the game is that, hey, when it, you know, the pitcher hits a spot, the catcher catches it, it's right there. And let's just say that's a 50, 50 call, you know, or it should be. You know, it's 50, 50. You know, the human eye, you can't get any closer than 50, 50. You hit your spot, you should probably be getting that eight out of 10 times. And I think that's a good feature. The flip side of that coin is okay if you miss your spot, but it's on the same 50, 50 line, you know, on the other side of the plate. You know, that shouldn't be 50, 50. That's actually, let's call it 2 out of 10. You shouldn't be getting that call at the same frequency. And for the aesthetics of fans watching, you know, the pitch, that you want the catcher to catch it and make it presentable to do that, I think that's a human part of the game. I think that's a good part of the game. When you actually start conceptualizing that, okay, you know, that's a real talking point here that we want that. All right, now go back and look at the postseason. You know, we think about the postseason last year. Are we really talking about what happened with the home plate, umpires and strikes, the balls, or anything that was really going on? Postseason? I don't think so. So what problem are we really solving.
- [14:39]
E
When you talk about the competition committee? I remember as an analyst going in and getting the rules and talking about when instant replay was coming on, and I knew the umpires were the best in the world, but the data also showed it, like, they got these calls 99% of the time.
- [14:54]
C
Right.
- [14:55]
E
I mean, and even the challenge Systems and whether ABS or whatever is 50, 50, like, you challenge it, and they're still right, you know, half the time.
- [15:03]
C
Right.
- [15:03]
E
So, you know, it seems to me like technology is a big part of it, right? Because you just have the information in front of you, and it's hard to keep denying it.
- [15:12]
C
Right.
- [15:12]
E
You're looking at instant replay, and the guy was safe by a mile, and you see it on 50 different screens. It was almost like baseball had no choice, right, to, like, use the data that's coming in. And I'm just wondering, like, with ABS in your view, like, all right, you've seen it so far. Do you see a better version of it happening? And I guess, how would you make those adjustments?
- [15:35]
C
Yeah. So I guess this gets back to the original question. Do I hate, you know, the challenge system? Well, I think what we're kind of here is, do we like the challenge system versus status quo? Yes. But do we like the challenge system versus maybe some other options here? That's where I'm kind of skeptical and where this is actually going to go. So two other ways to use the technology. Like, look, the technology, the way we can measure this, it's great. Like, let's use it. How can we use it in a way that minimizes its impact in the games? You know, there's no change behavior out of the players. We're not. The catchers aren't doing anything that. No, we just want. We want the game to stay the exact same. So first one would be say, hey, just grade the umpires. Look, the umpires are really good. Most of the umpires are really good. Like you said, 99% of time they're. They're getting the calls right. We're cutting down on the egregious calls. Overall, as an industry, the technology is already there, and the umpires are getting better from that. Really. At the end of the day, this is about kind of the bottom five umpires in the league. That's, I think, always one thing that, you know, has stuck with players is, look, if we're not good, we're out of here. We're gone. But if an umpire isn't good, he gets to keep his job for as long as he wants. And so, you know, I think we need to have a conversation about the, you know, some type of minimum standard that these guys have to get these calls right at some rate in order to be a big league umpire. Because we want the best umpires in the game. I don't think that's a problem of having these be human and be judged by humans. We just want to make sure that the best ones are there, are doing it. So that would be the first way to address it and minimally affect the game. You're not going to affect the game whatsoever just by making the umpires better. And I think that's, at the end of the day, what everybody wants, you know, other things you could do here is, all right, introduce a buffer zone maybe around the, you know, around the challenge system. So, like, hey, if you challenge, it's in the buffer, it's the call stands. So you keep the human element still with the umpire. You know, you're just trying to get rid of the egregious calls. So, you know, that's a form of it or it just even limit the number of challenges. You can even have a max amount of challenges you can have in a game of two or three. Not that you. Every time you keep, you know, you win a challenge, you keep it. You know, you can open yourself to having multiple ch. You know, there's games that could be having 10, 12 challenges a game. Then if you're in that world, you know, where you can you keep your challenge, then the electronic strike zones more in the game, it gets more involved into the game. And then therefore, now you really kind of have two zones. Well, you have the umpire zone and then you got this electronic strike zone going on kind of at the same time. And as we talked about, well, there's a human element to the strike zone that we all kind of want. You're going to start taking that away. So, you know, I'm not going to die on this hill, but I think it's worth having a discussion, especially as fans and people across the game, that, hey, it's not just a challenge system for status quo. It's, hey, what else we use the technology to do with it. And if we do, let's say, go down to grading the umpires, does that get us 90 there? Do we get 90 there without affecting the game whatsoever? And if that is, is that good enough? Especially as a, you know, when you introduce something into the game, you don't necessarily need to try to. Especially when we don't. We were sitting here we're not saying there's a problem. You know, like we said, the postseason, there wasn't a problem. We really need to be trying to change a fundamental part of the baseball experience. Pitching, catching, you know, so that. That's where I'm skeptical and just. And where we. I think as an industry, we just need to have a conversation about.
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- [20:30]
D
All right, so you're raising some really interesting questions here. Okay, let's start with this. You talked about the. When the catcher sets up and you hit that spot, you should get that call. And that should be true even if the spot is slightly outside the strike zone. Is that what we want or not? Do we want every pitch that's called a strike to actually be a strike?
- [20:59]
C
You're looking at how accurate this. You know. You know, down to an eighth of an inch, a quarter of an inch. You know, when you. And that's where I Said, you know, it's a 50, 50 call. To the human eye, it looks 50, 50, you know, you don't know if it's a quarter inch on, a quarter inch off. Like, you don't like. We're talking about that kind of that lane where it's kind of. You can't tell. I think that's a good part of the game that you're rewarding the pitch, rewarding the pitcher for hitting a spot, you know, and remember, I always think of the strike zone as kind of a cloud. That's a probability. It's not like a laser zone. You know, you might hit your spot one time, ball hit your next spot, it's a strike. Throughout the course of a game with an umpire, you kind of know, like you're kind of adding up in your head, like, man, I didn't get that call. I didn't get that call. Oh, I got that call. Okay, we're kind of even, you know, or, you know, that's just kind of how it works over the game. And I think that's a good feature part of the game because that you want pitchers located. If we sit there and say we're going to have more, just, hey, it's just an electronic strike zone. Okay, does this mean now that pitchers can come in and it's just a stuff game, you know, we're just going to be introducing more stuff. Catchers are just going to sit up middle. We don't care about the frame whatsoever. And the game changes that way. You know, if there's a base, you're on first. Now, the frame doesn't matter. Does a catcher now change his stance so he can throw out the runner more easily? You know, the frame doesn't matter right now. The call is more fair. You know, the pitch we're talking about here, you know, we're gonna change our human behavior because now we've changed how we call balls and strikes. So that's kind of the things I think about when you start, you know, taking away the human element. Hey, is it a quarter inch here, there? You know, what is that really solving problems, or are you going to be creating new problems to solve that quarter inch conundrum that you're talking about?
- [22:41]
D
Okay, on the record, we're all big fans of humans here, so, yeah, we vote for the humans and the human element. But because everybody wants that. That's why there's a challenge system and we don't have robot arms on every single pitch. Here's something that you and I talked about a little Bit. Are we already seeing signs that because the human umpires know this thing is lurking in the background, that the human umpires are already adjusting and already changing their strike zone because they know they could get challeng?
- [23:18]
C
I think that's something fascinating to watch. You know, it's tough to speculate whether or speculating here, we don't know if that's true or not. But if. Let's say that that is. I mean, that would also go back to you if you're grading them, like, if you don't call the strike zones, you know here, like, you can lose your job. I think that's this product of this. The umpires will just naturally get better.
- [23:36]
E
Well, Max, I mean, one story I think about, and Jason could talk about this, I think it was in 2000, but the major league baseball came in and said, we're now going to call the high strike. They just thought it was like the zone had, like, deflated too low and there was, like, nothing above the waist. And they went in and they. They sold it to us in spring training. They're going to do this. You got to swing at this pitch up here, Be ready. And they trained the human umpires, of course, and it lasted, what, Jason, two months? Like, it barely made it into the season. And then, because umpires have their own zones. So my question for you is, how does that play into your strategy as a pitcher? Because umpires do have their own zones. They're all different. How does that impact? And is that something that you enjoy, that you think should be kept in the game?
- [24:25]
C
Yeah, I think you actually bring up a good point, because right now, we actually know on every single umpire where their kind of zones are. This is every team looking at this. We have the data, and we know, hey, this is a big umpire. Hey, this is a tight umpire. So we already kind of know that anyway. We already kind of know where their zones are anyway. But I remember I kind of went down this wormhole for a little bit, and then at the end of the day, I just don't feel like it's there because they're really good. You hit your spot, usually they're calling it the same way. It's only on a few pitches throughout the course of a game where you kind of notice the difference. Unless you're kind of dealing with an extreme. Sometimes kind of the extra. You know, on the extreme guys we call who have a bigger zone. Yeah, you can realize a little bit and you know, hey, let's say they're calling away on a righty you know, hey, they're calling away. They're giving you that inch today. Like, okay, you're much more likely to get that call. You're going to take some more chances out there knowing that, hey, this guy's behind the plate. We might get it. So to answer your question, I'd say it's only on the extreme ends when you, when you know, somebody's like that, not on the overwhelming majority here of the umpires. It's pointless to try to pitch to the umpires.
- [25:30]
D
Yeah, but there's this K zone, this rectangle on the screen while you're watching a game on tv. And it's amazing to me how everyone thinks it is correct 100% of the time. And when you hit your spot, but the ball is outside that rectangle and it gets called a strike, what does every announcer always say? No, it's not a strike. So you have to. You have to factor that in.
- [26:03]
C
That.
- [26:04]
D
Now people believe that there is a defined strike zone, and it's always right. Isn't that a part of this?
- [26:12]
C
Yeah, it's part of it. But what about the fans at the stadium? They don't have that ability to see that now.
- [26:17]
D
They got a cartoon on the board.
- [26:20]
C
No, I mean. I mean, it is a fair point, but then that point is. Then we should be on, like, a pure electronic strike zone, which. Okay, when you start saying, hey, we should be overturning calls for the electronic strike zone, and that makes the game more fair. If that's the argument. Well, then you should be completely arguing to say, all right, if it's all about fairness, then we should be on a pure electronic strike zone, and we've gone down that route, and it doesn't work. So this is. This is a complex issue. I get it. There's a lot of moving pieces here, a lot of different ways to look at it, and I think it's just like I said, we need conversations about this.
- [26:51]
D
I told you this the other day. I feel like this is the. The most important thing that has to come out of this. Whatever we settle on here, whatever that abs strike zone turns out to be, it has to correspond to what you and Doug and everyone who's ever played baseball thinks is a strike and a ball. It can't be some technological creation that doesn't conform to that. Do you agree with that concept?
- [27:19]
C
Yeah, I mean, we don't all of a sudden one different pitches being called strikes now, because all of a sudden we have, you know, electronic jacks now. I don't necessarily know if that, you know, kind of seeing. Because I remember I also saw this in rehab starts last year. So I've seen it. I have a little exposure to it. But my thing is that, all right, where I'm kind of formulating this, you know, kind of stances. I've talked to minor league players, talk to minor league coaches who have seen this and kind of have to live by it. And they have some reservations. And sometimes, especially when they're minor leaguers, their voices don't get heard on some of these issues. And so I've seen it now a little bit, and I see what they're saying, that, hey, technology is great to keep the human element and just grade the umpires.
- [27:56]
E
Oh, Max, you know the thing, I saw a couple of things that you've said about umpires. Can you explain to sort of the listeners, so to speak, what do you love about that interaction with umpires? Like, that would be lost if you make everything, say, robotic. Like, what is it about that interaction with umpires that you value so much?
- [28:15]
C
It's not so much the interaction. It's that, hey, you know, when you're teaching pitchers how to pitch, and especially at the major league level, like hit your spot, that this is about location, you know, working with your catcher. Hey, we want to get the ball into this spot. And in rewarding, you know, the pitcher for doing that, if you don't and we just sit there and say it's a laser zone, well, then it's. If you throw a backup breaking ball, all of a sudden these, these guys are getting rewarded for, you know, being erratic. And so I don't necessarily think that's a good thing that we should be teaching guys that, hey, we should be teaching, hey, hit your spot, locate the ball, get the ball to the right area. Like, that should be a very focal point of how we teach baseball. And that even though with a human, yeah, you're going to have. It's fuzzy. Yeah, but that's actually good. That's a good feature, a part of the game.
- [29:00]
D
So you've mentioned the postseason now a couple times. So think about it. Ninth inning of game seven of the World Series. Bases loaded, three, two count. If the last pitch of the World Series is a strike, that gets overturned by a robot and turned into a ball and a walk off walk. Is that what we want or is that not what we want? Because I can't decide.
- [29:25]
C
Right. And so in that scenario, like I said, you could have been working with the umpire and like, all right, are you getting that call? Like, you put it there like, that's been a strike all day, and all of a sudden now we're seeing it's not. The other team's been getting that call, too. Typically. I mean, typically, these umpires are consistent. So when you overturn one, like, well, the other team's been getting that call, too. When you start having two different type of strike zones, a human strike zone and then a laser strike zone, you're opening yourself up to unintended consequences. And without this being a major issue at this point in time, if we had pitches are getting called way off the plate. Strikes. Yeah, okay, I get it. You know, I get it. I just don't see it like that. I see it. The umpires are actually really good here. That outside of a few bad eggs here, they're actually really good. And something that was just addressed, the bad umpires, I think that's where all of our attention is at. That's where all of our disdain on the umpires is at, is on the. Just a handful of bad umpires. The rest of the umpires are actually really good. We don't need to really talk about them and get over this. You know, the umpires are good. They're really good at their job. We don't need to be trying to, you know, like, reinvent the wheel here. Keep them where they're at. They're doing great. Just make them a little bit better.
- [30:28]
D
Back to that question I just asked. When we talk about getting the egregious calls, right? Like, that's what we're talking about, right? The big call in the ninth inning of a big game. But just recognize what that means.
- [30:44]
C
Oh, now, if it was an egregious call, I agree. Like, hey, that's an egregious. I agree on egregious calls. And that's why, you know, like, another part of the solution is make it just about egregious calls. Like, hey, there's a buffer zone around the zone that, you know, you challenge it, you know, you keep your challenge. It stands. But, you know, hey, if this is an egregious call, we need to change egregious calls. Yeah, I'm willing to have that conversation, I think, because then you still keep the human element to the game. Then it's the only, you know, like, there's certain call. I mean, I can think of them. But I remember you're watching, you know, where these, like, man, that's, you know, terrible calling. A big spot, you know, kind of affecting the game. Yeah, I'm okay. Changing the call when it's an egregious call, you know, when it. We're talking about quarters of an inch that you can't really detect to the eye. I don't necessarily know if that makes the game better.
- [31:28]
E
Well, what do you think about something like where it's automatic in certain situations, right? Like. Like, okay, let's say someone pitch comes in, it's six inches outside, and then automatically it's like, no, that was a ball like the, you know, if you see it in football. Right. Within two minutes or something like that, or after the seventh or. But something. But the call itself could be just instantly overturned. I mean, you think that could.
- [31:51]
C
Yeah, yeah. If we can talk about egregious calls. Yeah, I'm okay with talking about eggs egregious calls because at the end of the day, like you said, you know, when we got the, the umpire, the fans, everybody. And I think another, and this is another point I actually forgot to talk about here, you know, when I was on that competition committee, this is five, six years ago, that, hey, gambling's coming into baseball. This is a good thing, that gambling is coming more and more. But who's the number one person that can influence a game? Because if they is the umpire, if they got on the take of a gambling and they're betting on baseball, they could really impact a game. And so on that competition committee, I said, I raised my hand. I said, hey, look, this might be an issue in the future. Like, you might want the ability to be able to overturn an umpire's call because, you know, we can't afford to have any type of umpire. They think they can have a chance to be able to influence a game for gambling purposes. So, you know, that's where I said, yes. Yeah, you know, I put my hand up and say, yeah, I, I suggested that we need to look into this, you know, thinking about it, if they're constantly being watched about it or something and, or like in a system, what you're talking about here, you know, an egregious call, you know, automatically just gets overturned. There is no challenge to some. We're only talking about egregious calls. You know, I think that's what everybody's more sensitive to. That's what everybody is up in arms about. I don't think we're really up in arms about, you know, a 50, 50 pitch, sometimes being a strike, sometimes being a ball. And it's, you know, more, more about you hitting the spot as a pitcher. I think that's a human Element that everybody is still wants within the game. Otherwise we'd be in electronic strikes though. Need real insight from industrial data. Verse it with a single source of everything and get the best outcomes.
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- [34:55]
D
The other thing that's kind of interesting is I think players are trying to figure out if they can somehow, I don't know, manipulate abs or get some calls I never would have gotten before. Like, you challenged a pitch in your first start that I think you knew was low I would ever call the strike. So why'd you challenge it?
- [35:17]
C
All right, so on that, we had kind of talked before the game, you know, talking about this, that, hey, curveballs down could be a chance to, you know, where the umpire might not, you know, catch it. When I threw it, it was a curveball down. I mean, I knew his dad. I saw the umpire flinch. Like he flinched. You know, Kurt came down, caught it, he flinched. I was like, ah, this is, you know, it was spring training. Like, you know, I thought it was maybe just down. It was me actually trying to learn kind of Kirk's Own a little bit like, hey, where exactly is that? It's not so much I was like, oh, that's a strike. No, no, I wasn't. Then I see the challenge. Yeah, it's Way down. So, like, you know, if that wasn't. If that was a regular season, I wouldn't challenge that pitch, per se. But, you know, for me, where is the limit here? Where is the line as you navigate this? So we're all learning, we're all seeing where this is at. And honestly, you know, who knows who sees where this lands? But I think it's important to think not just the challenge system versus status quo, but, hey, this challenge system versus some other options here.
- [36:12]
D
I told you this at the time, but the previous version of ABS is different than this version because it was 3D and now we're 2D. So the 3D version meant if the ball ticked the zone at any point from the front of the plate to the back of the plate, that was still a strike. And so, like that pitch that you called, if we were still using that version, it would have ticked the zone at maybe at the very front of the plate. And even if the catcher catches it an inch off the ground, the robot thinks it's a strike. Like there were pitches being called strikes that literally nobody in the park thought were strikes. And so they fixed it and went to 2D, which is basically an imaginary pane of glass in the middle of the plate. If the ball ticks the strike zone there, that's a strike. So I do think this is technologically better. But it's weird, I told you this, that humans, the players are still operating with the strike zone in 3D, but the ABS is operating in 2D. It's hard to make that compute, isn't it?
- [37:21]
C
Yeah. And that's where, hey, good one. It's good that we're experimenting spring, like, hey, do this in spring. Experiment. See where this is at. Like I said all the times at Union, I was advocating, hey, experiment, see where this is at. See if we can get this into the game. This might be a good thing. And so that's why I want to speak about it publicly, is that as I was behind the scenes advocating for it now that some time has passed and like, hey, how would this actually work? And then really, you know, hearing back from the minor league years, the technology is great. How can we use the technology in the best way possible, I think is now where the conversation's at. And some of what their ideas coming from the minor leagues makes a little bit more sense to gradually increase this or gradually bring this into the game instead of kind of all kind of.
- [37:59]
E
Once I was just thinking about facing a pitcher like yourself and your kind of 3/4 delivery step. It A little, you know, cross body fire kind of thing. Have you seen it matter the fact that, let's say you're like, you know, the Greg Maddox, you have like that kind of run coming back and it lands outside the zone. But it's sort of as a hitter, it's like, okay, that was in a place I could handle. So are we finding any difference in that 3D, 2D, where the image, the 2D image of where the ball ends up is very different than how a hitter and where it actually crosses that swing path?
- [38:34]
C
Yeah, I haven't really been able to tell the difference on between 2D or 3D, but going back to that kind of concept, though is. Well, hold on. If it is a 3D zone, like, and that's how it's always been, that's how it is in the rule book. You know, if I do throw a curveball and it does nick the bottom part of that, you know, laser, you know, at the front of the plate, why is that not a strike? And it's catching off the ground, you know, and we're going to be in this world. Why? Why are we not in? Why is that not a strike?
- [39:01]
D
You know, we had this conversation. Hazel May was there. She's the Blue Jays sideline reporter. And she told me afterwards, I didn't even know what you guys were talking about with the 3D. We are, we are really getting deep here. Why don't we do a couple other things before we let you go?
- [39:17]
C
Oh, sure. Yeah. We can talk about anything else.
- [39:20]
D
Yeah, sure. Justin Verlander is in spring training with the Giants. He's still talking about wanting to get to 300 wins, and he's 38 away. He just turned 42. And maybe think about you. You're at 216 wins, you're two years younger than him. You're heading for the hall of Fame no matter what you do from here on out. But what's on your list of things that you want to accomplish?
- [39:45]
C
Like, I'm not playing for milestones, really. At the end of the day, I'm playing for the World Series. I'm playing to win the World Series. I mean, that's why I tell my kids, hey, Dad's trying to go out there and win a trophy, trying to win another trophy. So trying to win the World Series is the ultimate motivator. Like, that's why I wake up in the morning. That's why I want to do this, be a part of a team and go out there and take it down. That's Too much fun. You know, I still feel like I can go out there and compete and do that. You know, that's kind of the difference between, you know, sometimes Justin and I, we talk, we work out in the off season together, and, you know, that's where we're very, very similar. And yet some ways, we're very, very different. And for me, I just. I'm just not motivated by milestones.
- [40:22]
E
Max, you've seen the game just over your career. You've seen a lot of change, right? Just on rules. And there was a time the game really didn't want to change much. And whether ABS now, but the pitch clock disengagement, playing every single team in baseball over a course of a season. Can you give us a sum of how do you feel about those changes in framing it in your whole career? The game then versus now? How do you see it?
- [40:50]
C
You know, the strike zone is one thing. I'm not gonna die. Like I said, I'm not gonna die on this hill. But I think it's a worthy conversation. The. The issue here that I kind of want to die on, and what I've seen the biggest change on is how starting pitchers are used. And I think this is actually a big negative within the game of reducing how long starters are going. You know, I don't like it, and I don't think the fans like it either. I don't think a starter going five innings should be the new norm. I don't. I don't think that makes a game better. If anything, I actually think it decreases offense. You know, we've seen offense continue to go down, down, down. Well, it's. Because now we can play matchups and relievers in the. In the fifth and sixth inning. Does that really make the game better? Is that what the fans really want? I don't think so. They actually enjoy watching two starters go, you know, 110 pitches and throw at each other. Not throw at each other, but throwing against each other. And then, you know, you have a setup man and then you have a closer. I think that's a, you know, a desirable, like, kind of way you think about the game is that you want to start, you know, really the starters to be, you know, determining the game here. And so, you know, I'd say that's the biggest negative that's happened. The change has happened the most. I think it's been the biggest negative is how we look at starting pitching.
- [42:00]
D
So what do we do about that? I mean, you and I have talked about this, but is there a solution that restores the prominence of the starting pitcher.
- [42:08]
C
First you gotta say, like, yes. As an industry, we gotta sit here and say yes, we want the starting pitcher to pitch more. We don't want five innings, no runs, 70 pitches, and you get pulled because it's the third time through. I think that just doesn't look good. I don't think the fans like it. The players don't like it. Like, we want to pitch. I think now we got to come in here and actually try to legislate this and actually make this happen. You know, when you go in and make a start, like, you gotta be ready to throw 100 pitches. I feel like that's a good thing, is when the pitcher, the starter, is pitching, you know, majority of the game here, or at least having that type of pitch count. And so that's where, you know, the idea, you know, I know we had talked about the double hook being a thing. The double hook is being, you know, where you attach the designated hitter to the starting pitcher. You know, if you pull the starting pitcher, then you lose the dh. So that would be one mechanism. But I don't think that goes far enough. I think the people in the front office are going to still use their analytics and sit there and say, no, you're going to pull the starting pitcher every time. We'll sacrifice dh, you know, xyz. So for me, like, you got to just keep up in the ante. You got to go after what's going on in the front office, analytics and make it the other way around. Like, no, you can't pull the sewing picture because XYZ would happen when that's what that'd be. You know, that would hurt us more than just leave the picture in. When you start thinking from those parameters, okay, what can we actually do to sit there and say, to make these guys, you got to keep the starter in the game, otherwise bad things are going to happen. That's where we're going to start, where I've kind of landed. And like I said, this is a conversation. But, you know, there's something here, though, that, hey, it's like a double hook. You know, I call it a qualified start. You have a qualified start, you know, where you throw E. And that's any one of these. If you throw either six innings, you throw 100 pitch, 95, 100 pitch. You know, let's call it 100. Let's just say 100 pitches and. Or give up four runs. So if you give up four runs, like, okay, you've qualified it as a Start now, if you qualify to start, okay, you get to keep your dharma for the rest of the game. You don't have to do anything for that. Let's update a little bit here. Okay. Maybe you get a free substitution. You know, you can now use a pinch runner in it for a catcher in a certain situation to sit there and say, hey, it's a more winning if your starter's qualified. And then also in extra innings, maybe you do get the runner. Maybe if your pitcher is unqualified, maybe you don't get the runner. You're introducing, you know, little things around the game here to keep things saying, hey, keep the starter in a game. If that's not enough, then maybe you need to go to some type of financial punishment on teams. Like, hey, you keep popping these pictures. You know, we have 160 games. If you can't get qualified pitchers, you know, for whatever threshold you want to use, like, you're going to start getting fined. Like, you have to keep these starters in the game. So, you know, for me, I think this comes down to a legislative part. You've got to stay in the game. You can't just be getting pulled for XYZ for, you know, oh, you're bad third time through. I just don't like that how much.
- [45:01]
D
You have to find the Dodgers to make them care.
- [45:04]
C
Right, Right. But I guarantee you there's a price point. Would finally the Dodgers would be like, all right, we're keeping our starters in the game.
- [45:11]
D
Yeah. You know, I think here's the way to think about it. If Patrick Mahomes was only going to play the first half and maybe the first five minutes of the third quarter, and then every possession after that, we're going to put in a different quarterback. We're to put in a running quarterback. Then we're going to put in a guy with the biggest arm in the game. We're just going to mix and match for the rest of the game. How would football fans feel? They'd go nuts.
- [45:37]
C
Right. You're absolutely right. And I think there's a fundamental aspect of connecting with a team. Like, hey, you know, you're getting this matchup. You know, we're marketing this matchup. These two starting pitchers going at it. I think that's a, you know, a good thing. I also think people gamble on that. I think, you know, I. Gambling is good for baseball here. Like, it gets more eyes onto our game. I think that's a good thing. I think people actually want to gamble when they see a, you know, a matchup. Of the day. You're playing 162. You want to see these matchups, you want to see him play out. I think that's a good feature to have, you know, the game decided by the starters. Yeah.
- [46:11]
D
Okay, so. So one more from me. We gotta let you go.
- [46:15]
C
You're fine. I can keep going.
- [46:18]
D
Can we keep going? Might have to get a ruling on this, but say we just keep rolling along at this rate. Okay. I love to ask pitchers about this. What is an ace in this sport gonna look like in 10 years or 20 years or 50 years is if this is what. How we're going to use starting pitching? What do you think?
- [46:42]
C
And that's a concern. Like, are we just getting guys just become, you know, kind of 50, 60 pitch freaks? And that's all, you know, like, hey, throw your 60 pitches here. You got your. Your pitches on Twitter, and that's all we care about. You know, just a few, you know, your few overlays. Oh, that. That's all we really care about is the 60 pitches you throw or we actually going to legislate this in and say, no, we want starters. We want guys that are actually going to go out there and throw 100 plus pitches in a game, and that's a desirable thing for the fans. So I definitely think about that, definitely worry about that. That this trend could keep accelerating, it gets worse and worse, and that the future of starting pitching is actually could be bad here, especially with the injury rate. You know, is this. This is part of the injury rate, is that, hey, guys, now, you know, I kind of had a pulse on this kind of idea that, hey, if you're gonna start cutting my pitch count and say, I can only throw 85, 90 pitches, well, I'm gonna increase my effort on those 85 to 90 pitches and try to throw it harder for those 85 to 90. Like, if you're going to pull me earlier, I'm just going to get more into each pitch. And by putting more in each pitch, well, you're creating more injuries. If you actually made it and said, hey, you put the parameter on, say, hey, you got to throw 100 pitches, and then put that challenge back onto these pitching labs for the next generation. Arms are coming up like, hey, you can have all these great pitches and we can teach you how to throw hard and all this, but you have to throw 100 pitches. I think you might see some new things coming up out of these pitching labs. What these guys are going to try to do rather than where it's at right now.
- [48:08]
D
The first time we elect a starting pitcher of the hall of fame with like 108 wins, think of the can of worms. That's going to be all the guys from the past.
- [48:20]
C
Doug, talk about more from your perspective. You're a hitter, but watching the game, how do you see that?
- [48:25]
E
It's hard for me to get away from the fan of growing up and seeing Steve Carlton and Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan and guys just going deep and just watching, you know, the fact that they threw 250 innings or 300 innings and, and that matchup was matter. It was a, it was a boxing match. Carlton versus Seaver, like that was a sign. And then. So yeah, I definitely love that. I, I understand how it's gotten to this place with this specialization and I guess, you know, my curiosity for you is like, what, what do you tell like young pitchers, like as a mentor, what do you tell them young starters? What, what advice do you give them in this situation?
- [49:02]
C
You know, I talk about the mechanics of like, hey, you got to stay healthy. Like, you got to stay healthy here. Like, don't sit here. Like, if you need a day, you need a day, I get it. But like, you got to stay durable. You got to keep making your starts. You, you can't afford to be blowing out and thinking, you know, or throwing all these pitches and blowing out. You want to have the best part of your career stay healthy. Like it's a, that's the winning formula here, not the winning formula that's on the iPad. The winning formula is to stay healthy.
- [49:28]
D
I get jealous of the other sports because you still get to watch Steph against LeBron during the NFL playoffs. I think we're getting ready for Mahomes against Josh Allen. And a friend of mine texted me and said, I'm worried that the NFL now has better pitching matchups than baseball. You know what I mean? Do we want exactly, do we want that? I don't think we do. It's just an entertainment product, right?
- [49:55]
C
No, you're right. We're an entertainment pride. We get. We're asking people to spend their time and hard earned money to watch us. We want the most competitive matchup, most compelling reason to watch our game. I don't think you just want, you know, the next AAA guy coming in and throwing the 15 is because he can throw 98 and a breaking ball. No, you want the names to it. You, this is a branding issue kind of thing that you want the top, you know, starters pitching as long as they can in the game and influence the game and having that matchup and you know, as fans, we watch it and like, oh, who's going to beat who? Oh, he beat. You know, like that's a great part of it. You know, like you said, you know, Mahomes versus Allen. You watch that. You know, our sport has that. We need to make sure that it gets back. We need to make that more proven in our game. That's a great feature of our game. So this is an issue that. I'll die on this though, because I think there's something really to. To this.
- [50:43]
D
Yeah, we can do that. When Commissioner Max Scherzer.
- [50:53]
C
Four kids. I got. I gotta be a parent.
- [50:56]
D
I know we gotta wrap this up. But Max, we could talk to you all day. You're a gift to our support.
- [51:02]
E
Okay.
- [51:03]
D
I mean that. Thank you so much for doing this and I can't wait to do it again sometime.
- [51:07]
C
Appreciate it. No, thanks for your conversation. Always love to talk and shop. So you guys keep doing your thing. Love following you guys. Who knows, maybe we'll do this again here soon.
- [51:14]
D
Yeah, that'd be awesome. Thank you, Max.
- [51:16]
E
Thanks, Max. Really appreciate it, man.
- [51:18]
C
All right. Appreciate it.
- [51:22]
D
Thanks for listening to the best of Starkville. You know, 2026 is right around the corner. So we'll be back soon talking about the greatest sport on earth, baseball.
- [51:37]
C
When you're a forward thinker, you don't just bring your A game, you bring your AI game. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people, money and agents so you can transform tomorrow Workday moving business forever forward.
- [51:52]
B
Starting a podcast or business can feel overwhelming. Schedules, logos and endless decisions. But the right tool can change everything. For millions. That tool is Shopify. Shopify powers 10% of all US E commerce from Mattel to new brands just launching. With templates for beautiful stores, AI tools for content, and built in marketing, Shopify helps you sell smarter. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into. With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today. @shopify.com theathletic Go to shopify.com theathletic shopify.com TheAthletic with no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC.
- [53:08]
C
This holiday season, Capital One reminds you to give yourself the gift of 1.5% cash back with the Capital One Quicksilver Card. Can I earn 1.5% cash back on birds?
- [53:18]
E
Birds?
- [53:19]
C
What if you sent your true love two turtle doves plus a partridge in a pear tree? Sure, but why would anyone want that? The song was very convincing.
- [53:28]
D
Earn 1.5% cash back on all your.
- [53:30]
C
Holiday purchases with the Capital One Quicksilver card. What's in your wallet?
- [53:35]
D
Terms apply. See capitalone.com for details.