Starkville | Dave Sims and Rick Rizzs debate who is the AL MVP- Judge or Raleigh

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Windup - Starkville | Dave Sims and Rick Rizzs Debate AL MVP: Judge or Raleigh

Host: Jason Stark (with Doug Glanville)
Guests: Rick Rizzs (Mariners Radio Broadcaster), Dave Sims (Yankees Radio Broadcaster)
Date: September 30, 2025
Episode Focus: The American League MVP Race – Is it Aaron Judge or Cal Raleigh?

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Episode Overview

This lively episode of Starkville centers on the most hotly contested MVP debate in years: Should the AL MVP be Aaron Judge of the Yankees, or Seattle’s Cal Raleigh? Veteran broadcasters Rick Rizzs and Dave Sims, now representing the Mariners and Yankees, respectively, bring their passion, historical context, and broadcaster wisdom to the discussion. The hosts break down the historic feats of both players, reflect on the difficulty of comparing their seasons, and also discuss the dangerous nature of their teams heading into the postseason.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Backstory & Stakes of the 2025 AL MVP Race

• Historic Performances: Both Cal Raleigh and Aaron Judge have turned in seasons for the ages, making this MVP contest “one of the great MVP debates ever.” (Jason Stark, 07:46)
• Historic Rarity: The show notes that either result will lead to someone with a historic season missing out on the award.

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2. Rick Rizzs’ Case for Cal Raleigh (08:27–13:34)

• Raleigh’s Catching Feat: Rick emphasizes Raleigh’s 60 home runs as a catcher—blowing away records previously held by Salvador Perez (48), surpassing legends like Johnny Bench, Mike Piazza, Carlton Fisk, and Roy Campanella.
• Switch-Hitting Milestone: Raleigh broke Mickey Mantle’s mark for home runs by a switch hitter.
• Leadership & Intangibles: Rizzs points out Raleigh’s work managing a pitching staff, his presence for 121 games as catcher, and leadership moments.

  “He is behind home plate...has to hold the hands of 13 pitchers...calls timeout at the right time...” (Rick Rizzs, 08:27)

• Durability & Toughness: Raleigh played through pain, calling games, handling a full workload, and still led the league in offensive production as a catcher.
• Comparative Argument:

  “If you put a catcher’s mask on Aaron Judge...he’s not going to hit .331...It’s too demanding.” (Rick Rizzs, 11:13)

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3. Dave Sims’ Case for Aaron Judge (13:54–16:31)

• Unprecedented Hitting Dominance: Judge hit .331 with over 50 home runs, only the third player ever with 50 HRs and a batting title (with Jimmie Foxx and Mickey Mantle).
• Statistical Leadership:

  “He leads 19 categories offensively in the American League.” (Dave Sims, 14:44)

• Context: Judge returned strong from injury, leading the Yankees to a tie for the best AL record.
• Advanced Stats: Recognizes the “super metrics” supporting Judge’s dominance, likening it to Felix Hernandez’s Cy Young win.
• Respect for Raleigh: Sims acknowledges Raleigh’s historic year and insists both are deserving; notes possible “New York/Judge fatigue” might play in voters’ minds.

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4. The Voter’s Dilemma: Tradition, Value, or Uniqueness? (16:31–17:47, 17:47–20:04)

• How Should Voters Weigh History?
  Doug Glanville wonders: “How do you weigh the uniqueness of a certain circumstance in one year that’s just magical?” (16:31)
• Jason Stark’s Perspective:
  Stark, who wrote about the race but is not a voter, details how Judge’s margin in leading the league (OBP, SLG, OPS) is Hall-of-Fame rare:

  “It was a short list, men. It was Ted Williams and Barry Bonds, and that is all.” (Jason Stark, 19:11)

• Guilt of Exclusion: Stark confesses he feels “guilty” not choosing Raleigh despite the historical weight of his campaign.

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5. “Value” Debate: Numbers vs. Meaning to Team (20:04–22:09)

• Rick Rizzs Doubles Down:

  “Are we choosing the MVP on numbers, or are we choosing an MVP for what he meant to his baseball team?” (Rick Rizzs, 20:04)

  • He cites previous MVPs who won not for stats alone (Nellie Fox, Kirk Gibson, Miguel Tejada) but for transformative team value.
• Both Deserve It: Both panelists agree it’s exceptionally close; Sims predicts a razor-thin margin in the voting.

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6. The Unique Challenge of Evaluating Catchers (24:07–27:02)

• Can a Catcher’s Value Be Measured?
  Doug Glanville:

  “You can’t really even quantify or qualify what a catcher does.” (Doug Glanville, 24:39)

• Physical & Mental Demands: Catching includes injury, staff management, and unique defensive pressures – most catchers hit poorly by necessity, making Raleigh’s performance more extraordinary.

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7. How Will History Judge the 2025 MVP Decision? (27:02–30:47)

• Rick Rizzs: Not selecting Raleigh would be “kind of a shame” given the unprecedented catching season and its value to fans and team legacy.
• Dave Sims: Points out voter fatigue/familiarity can affect outcomes; the system is “imperfect,” but the debate will be part of baseball’s lore.

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8. The Postseason Outlook: Who’s More Dangerous? (30:47–39:20)

• Yankees’ Case (Dave Sims):
  • Power throughout the lineup: Judge, Stanton, rising stars (Bellinger, Chisholm, Rice).
  • Improved bullpen and rotation; “swag” and home-field advantage.
• Mariners’ Case (Rick Rizzs):
  • “Most dangerous team in the American League.”
  • Health and depth of pitching staff, new lineup depth from trade acquisitions (Josh Naylor, A. Suarez), and Julio Rodriguez’s leadership.
  • Mariners are “primed to do a lot of damage” and could reach their first-ever World Series.

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9. Personal Reflections on the Postseason (39:20–44:53)

• Rick Rizzs:**
  • Reflects on the emotional history of Mariners baseball; the 1995 team “saved baseball” in Seattle; this year brings hope and excitement, especially for the Pacific Northwest fans.

    “They made me a fan of the game again.” (Rick Rizzs, 41:12)

• Dave Sims:
  • Emphasizes excitement for Yankees-Red Sox at Yankee Stadium after moving from Seattle—dream opportunity as a broadcaster and hometown New Yorker.
• Doug Glanville:
  • Revels in the chance to call postseason baseball and reflects on his own fan/playing history.
  • Nods to Dodgers, Reds, Terry Francona’s managerial magic, Brewers’ underappreciated dominance, and the parity across contenders.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Raleigh’s Unique Record:

  “He’s put together the greatest season ever in the history of baseball as a catcher...and he did it as a switch hitter, passing Mickey Mantle.”
  — Rick Rizzs (08:27–13:34)

• On Judge’s Hitting Feat:

  “Only the third player in history with 50 home runs and a batting title…he leads 19 offensive categories.”
  — Dave Sims (14:44)

• On Measurement of Value:

  “I want to get away from the numbers. I want to take a look at the valuable part.”
  — Rick Rizzs (20:04)

• On Voting & Metrics:

  “There’s a reason that humans vote and we don’t just feed this into a computer.”
  — Jason Stark (30:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Travel & Setting the Stage (Doug's travel stories): 03:03–04:38
• Introducing Guests & MVP Debate Setup: 07:06–08:08
• Rick’s Full Case for Raleigh: 08:27–13:34
• Dave’s Full Case for Judge: 13:54–16:31
• Voter/Writer Perspective & Stat History: 17:47–20:04
• Historic/Team Value Arguments: 20:04–22:09
• Evaluating Catchers' Value: 24:07–27:02
• How Will History Remember This Race? 27:02–30:47
• Postseason: Yankees vs. Mariners Outlook: 31:11–36:41
• Personal Reflections on the Postseason: 39:20–44:53
• Ichiro’s Cooperstown Speech & Rick Rizzs’ Famous Call: 45:13–47:46
• Strange but True Segment (9-3 game-ending play): 50:11–56:17
• Listener Mailbag ("Call to the Bullpen" segment): 57:11–66:10

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Additional Segments

Ichiro’s Shoutout at Cooperstown (45:13)

• Ichiro referenced Rick Rizzs’ famous “laser beam strike” call in his Hall of Fame speech, to Rizzs’ delight:

  “I got goosebumps again.” (Rick Rizzs, 45:13)

Strange but True Baseball: The 9-3 Game-Ending Play (50:11-56:17)

• The team discusses a bizarre, possibly unprecedented play—a “walk-off” 9-3 out at first base on a hit to right field—and the deep weirdness of baseball history.

Listener Mailbag: Baseball Mysteries & Rules Oddities (57:11–66:10)

• Listener tips off a neat fact: When Cal Raleigh broke Mickey Mantle’s switch-hitting HR record, Mike Yastrzemski was in left field—just as Carl Yastrzemski was for Mantle’s original feat in 1961.
• Another listener questions why starting pitchers don’t get wins if their bullpen loses and regains the lead; hosts explain rule history and ponder creative alternatives.

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Flow & Tone

The tone is warm, witty, and deeply baseball-savvy—mixing rigor (statistical history, advanced metrics) with banter, personal stories, and nostalgia. The camaraderie between guests and hosts makes the high-stakes MVP debate feel insightful and friendly, rather than divisive. The episode also honors the strange magic and history of baseball.

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Conclusion

This episode is a must-listen for fans fascinated by the complexities of MVP voting, catcher value, baseball history, and the postseason atmosphere. Both Rizzs and Sims argue passionately and respectfully, enriching the listener’s understanding of how truly rare and difficult the choice is between Judge and Raleigh. The show reveres both tradition and modern analytics, celebrating baseball’s timeless debates and unforgettable moments.

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Selected Notable Quote to Sum Up:

“If you vote for Aaron Judge, you’re not wrong. If you vote for Cal Raleigh, you’re not wrong. There are two right answers.”
— Jason Stark (24:07)

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Transcript

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[Rick Riz]

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[Jason Stark]

Of Fame or Jason Stark. And then the robot said, strike. That's why you're going in the hall of Fame. It's an Inside the park over on Doug Glennfeld.

[Doug Glanville]

Mike trout his coffee at Starbucks with a double latte.

[Jason Stark]

Skinny Doug, are you ready to make some podcast magic?

[Doug Glanville]

I am ready. Bring on the magic wand. Let's do it.

[Jason Stark]

Greetings and hello and welcome to Starkville. I'm Jason Stark. I write about baseball for the Athletic, and I'm joined once again by my good friend, writer, substacker, broadcaster, professor, distinguished former major leaguer, and the voice of postseason baseball on ESPN TV and radio, Doug Glanville. Doug, happy postseason to you.

[Doug Glanville]

Yes, great to be here. This is the time of year it's all the marbles. All the marbles.

[Jason Stark]

And here in Starkville One way we celebrate those marbles first day after the season. It's kind of a ritual now. We celebrate by having Doug get on a plane from somewhere to somewhere, and then he joins this podcast from somewhere in the universe. So, Doug, why, why don't you tell us about your travels today and where you are right now.

[Doug Glanville]

This was magical. I feel like this is getting me off to a good start. I'm. I'm currently in Los Angeles about to call the wild card game on tv. So I get to show the face. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I haven't seen my face in a while. But it's Dodgers, Reds and Terry Francona, my former manager. That, that, that'll be fun. Dodgers with Shohei and company. Yeah. So I got the wild card with my partner John Shami and Alden Gonzalez. So we'll be out here. Probably going to go to the practice a little bit later today and see what's going on. But yes, to get here, I had to leave the east coast in Hartford, Connecticut, drop off of Rent a car, connect in Detroit, and of course, I was racing Starkville's time. Starkville, we have our own clock and we were due to start at what was at 2:30 Eastern Time.

[Jason Stark]

That's 11:30 Pacific.

[Doug Glanville]

11:30 Pacific. And I was like, I might make it. I'm supposed to land at 10:35. If I get my luggage 45 minutes, I might make it. But the beauty is we landed at 10:15 local. So I was like, I got a couple minutes and then the luggage came a little quicker. And I pulled up, logged in and I looked at the clock and it was 2:30 Eastern. So I felt it's destiny. This is going to go well this postseason.

[Jason Stark]

Yeah, we thought you were going to wind up doing this by text from the air. Then we thought maybe from baggage claim, but no, you made it all the way to your hotel. What a miracle. Great. Look, wherever you are, whatever you're about to see, it's going to be great. Because the only thing better than a wild game 162 day like we just had is the wildness of October. I can't wait. I know you can't wait. So to help us figure this all out, we're going to do another version of the show we did last week, another broadcasters roundtable. This week we have Rick Riz, the fantastic voice of the Mariners for four decades and his longtime partner, but now the voice of the Yankees, Dave Sims. We will talk about their teams, but I think you should know the MVP race might come up for a really long time. Just might. We also have a tremendous strange but true segment where something happened that appears to have never happened before, ever. And once again, we're going to answer listener questions to our Starkville hotline, which you too can call with your baseball questions at 267-227-9867.

[Doug Glanville]

And I have an easy way to remember it. I figured it out again, it's Bap bop zoom. So if, you know, just call Bat Bob Zoop on your phone. If you do you have people have rotary phones anymore. I guess it's probably tough, but that's what you dial and it will hit the hotline.

[Jason Stark]

Bap bop zoop is the number to call or 267-227-9867. You know, Doug, you're lucky because you're one of the few people in the world who gets to watch post season baseball games and tell the world all about it. But we are also lucky because today we're going to talk to two other guys who are so fortunate to do that. So let's welcome in two of the very best voices in our game. It's Rick Riz, awesome radio voice of the Mariners and a man that Rick used to work with for so many years in Seattle and Dave Sims, who's now the radio voice of the Yankees. Rick, Dave, we are so happy to have you here.

[Dave Sims]

We appreciate it. Fellas, good to see you.

[Rick Riz]

Jason, it's great to be with you and Doug and talk about this Mariners ball club. What a great year. And Mr. Cal Raleigh, a historic season.

[Jason Stark]

Yeah, I think he's going to come up.

[Doug Glanville]

Yeah, I think so.

[Rick Riz]

I hope so.

[Jason Stark]

Yeah. Should we talk about the MVP now or you want to save it for like four minutes?

[Dave Sims]

Get into it because it's going to take a while.

[Rick Riz]

I'm ready to go. I am ready to go.

[Doug Glanville]

He's got his notes.

[Jason Stark]

Wow. Okay, so Rick is flashing his notes. So what do you think, Doug? Should we just plow right into this?

[Doug Glanville]

This is like the perfect, you know, conversation. Then you have the, you have the voting angle and yeah, I'm very curious about this.

[Jason Stark]

Okay, so I think, I don't know what you guys think. I feel like this is one of the great MVP debates ever. There's only one thing wrong with it. Either Cal Raleigh or Aaron Judge is going to not win. And I don't know which one it'll be when they count the votes in November. I don't even know that there's a right answer.

[Doug Glanville]

Can't they tie. I thought they. I thought they can tie.

[Jason Stark]

They could tie. Theoretically, they could. Doesn't happen much. They could. All right, so start with Rick. You've just watched your catcher hit 60 home runs. Judging by that big notepad you were flashing, I'm guessing you think he's the mvp. Tell us what you think.

[Rick Riz]

There's no doubt in my mind. No doubt in my mind. And I love Aaron Judge. Fantastic season. One of the greatest hitters, one of the greatest players in the history of the game of baseball. For 2025, Cal Raleigh is the MVP in the American League for so many reasons. Number one, the offense he put together as a catcher. We'll discuss that. We can discuss that for about a half an hour. But 60 home runs for a catcher, a major league record for home runs by a catcher he blew away. Salvador Perez is 48. He had more home runs at the all star break, 38 than Johnny Bench. He had more home runs than any catcher in the history of the game at baseball. Johnny Bench, Mike Piazza, Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk, Roy Campanella. It was just absolutely historic. 125 runs batted in. But the thing about it, he did it as a catcher. And not only that, you know, he set the record for the major league record for most home runs by a switch hitter. It's tough to do and have a great swing from both sides of the plate. He passed up Mickey Mantle. So Cal Raleigh this year in 20, 25 more home runs, a better season in the history of the game of baseball. The greatest season by a catcher in major league history. But on top of that, besides moving all the great catchers in offensive categories, he moved by great hall of Famers Mickey Mantle for the most home runs by the switch hitter. And also he moved by Ken Griffey Jr. Greatest player I've ever seen for home runs. In a single season In Mariners history, Junior had 56. Not once, but twice Cal hits 60. But the thing for me is that he did it as a catcher. He is behind home plate. He's in the meetings at three o'clock in the afternoon. He's got to hold the hands of 13 pitchers on this club and get in through tough stretches. He calls timeout at the right time and I can cite a hundred instances. But I'll mention a game against the St. Louis Cardinals not that long ago. Logan Gilbert is struggling early in the ball game. Bases loaded, nobody out. Cal calls timeout and he goes out there, ends up striking out. The next guy strikes out, the next guy strikes out. The Next guy, the Cardinals could have had a big early lead. Cal went out there, got Logan back on the rails, and he did that time and time again and again. He did it as a catcher. He caught 121 games this season. Morelman runs any catcher as a primary catcher in Perez and as a catcher, Javi Lopez. And it's also when you consider that as great as Judge was, he was out in right field, was a DH for a lot of time, as great as that. Now you add the history of what Cal has done and throw that on top of his offensive records. He did it as a catcher. And then you talk about moving by Johnny Bench and Mickey Mantle and Ken Griffey Jr. And all the others. This guy has had the greatest season ever in the history of the game for a major league catcher. And it's got to be the V that we're talking about. Not just offensive numbers, which Aaron Judge has put together. And I've told people this, and no disrespect, please, to Aaron Judge, but if you put a catcher's mask on Aaron, a chest protector and shin guards, I guarantee you I love Aaron Judge. He's not going to hit.331. He's not going to hit those. No, he's not going to do it, David. He's not going to do it. It's too demanding. He's not going to do it because.

[Jason Stark]

They don't make the mass and chest protectors that big.

[Rick Riz]

But Cal Raleigh did this. As a catcher, it's tough to compare apples to oranges. So I'm trying to compare apples to apples. If you put Judge behind home plate, does he do what he's been doing this year? I don't think he would, but Cal did you put Cal out in right field and with that swing, he's hitting 80 home runs instead of six.

[Dave Sims]

Yeah, his defensive numbers aren't going to be very good.

[Rick Riz]

Right. We're talking about offense, David. We're talking about office. And I tell you what, he's made four errors as a catcher. So I love this guy. He posts every time. He had 705 plate appearances. The other two guys that had more were his teammates, Randy Rosarena and. And Julio Rodriguez. He is there every day taking care of the pitching staff and putting up numbers like that. It's phenomenal. He wins the Home Run Derby, which he predicted 20 years earlier when he was 8 years old, and he never slowed down. I thought the numbers would really come down when Bruce Bochy intentionally walked him twice right before the All Star Game. And I go, okay, here it comes. He's not going to have any opportunities. There's many opportunities, but he still did it. To tell you how tough he is. They took a pitch in the dirt, hit him in the neck and he said, I just need a second. That's all he needed was a second. And the next inning, he hits home run number 55 on the year. And the next inning after, hits number 56. He's the toughest guy ever. He should be the American League. Cal Raleigh, the American League mvp.

[Jason Stark]

That was the longest speech ever given on this show, including my senator Jason.

[Rick Riz]

There's a lot to talk about with this guy. I love him. He's the sweetest guy in the world too.

[Jason Stark]

I know. You know, I was going to ask Dave a question, but I think Dave is just roaring to go. Dave, why don't you respond to Rick?

[Dave Sims]

I like a lot of what he said. Having been there with Cal since he came up and this year, mad love, mad appreciation as a catcher, certainly not at this level. I totally appreciate where he's coming from and being a big part of that offense, especially with the additions of who's that? Naylor and Geno. It made it a very potent offense. However, I look at Aaron Judge as maybe one of the greatest hitters we ever want to see and Nobody expected that. At 6, 7, 275, he won the batting title. At 331, he's only the third player in the history of the game they had 50 or more home runs and win a batting title. Jimmy Double X Fox. Mickey Mantle is the fulcrum of an offense that leads them, that led the major leagues in home runs by a very wide margin. Yes, he missed the cut. He missed a couple of weeks on the I.O.

[Jason Stark]

At the.

[Dave Sims]

@ the elbow problem. It came back. Still hit 50 plus home runs, still got big knocks with two strike singles up the middle, going the other way as a leader, as a focal point of the ball club, 19 categories. Offensively, he leads 19. And especially in this day and age of super metrics, which we've gone by and the supermetrics helped. Felix Hernandez won a Cy Young one award with what, 12, 13 wins a few years ago? I think that carries a heck of a lot of weight. And again, no way am I disrespecting or diminishing what Cal Raleigh did. And yes, they did win the division. But yes, the Yankees finished tied with Toronto for the best record in the American League, third best in the major leagues and playing in the toughest environment there is. In baseball, you know, I was looking at numbers before he jumped on me. 19 categories, those are legit. And he placed, you know, he was in a top five in Homer's top five in Rubies, the categories he didn't lead. Now again, this is one of those things where whoever wins, I'm not going away angry or disappointed because both guys are super, super deserving of this. And I know because there have not been as many superior seasons like that coming out of Pacific Northwest. And the Yankees are the Yankees, New York fatigue, Aaron Judge fatigue. That could become a factor in the voting here. I think even if I were still in Seattle and I'm not, this isn't a patronizing or anything like that. I just having seen Judge now every day for however, 100 something, 150 something games, I'm riding with him. But again, I'm not going to be angry or PO'd or anything, but Judge has a strong case, Cal has a strong case. I don't have a vote and those guys will decide it.

[Doug Glanville]

I have more of a question. Maybe it's like first of all, the history making in both cases is jaw dropping. And I am actually curious to ask Jason, as a voter, how do you weigh when people are literally rewriting books and they're doing it at the same time, it's sort of like, oh, time. Every time he's out there and does anything, you're just like, he's the MVP because he's just doing something I don't even understand. Every year he's pitching, he's dominating, he's leading home runs, he's doing it all. So I do wonder, like, as the voter who's, who's voted on these things, like, how do you weigh the uniqueness of a certain circumstance in one year? That's just magical versus sort of the traditional, okay? Like, Aaron Judge is the best hitter in baseball, period. He's got 200 more points of ops than Raleigh, which is shocking. It's like, you know, when you go through those numbers, it's kind of easy. And then you go, wait a minute, you know, Cal, Raleigh's at a catcher. He's at a position that there's a number of catchers in Major League baseball that are hitting 190 and it's perfectly fine, you know, like he's so above and beyond in this category that you kind of go, oh, you know, it's real. So anyway, that's more of a question to you, Jay. Like, how do you weigh these things?

[Jason Stark]

First of all, I do not hold an American League MVP vote. I did just write a column on who I thought should win, and I'm sure you guys read this. I went into the process thinking I was going to get to a place where I thought the answer was Cal Raleigh. And instead, when I really looked at Aaron Judge, it occurred to me that in some ways, you can argue he's making even more history than Cal Raleigh is. Here's the hardest part about this. You know, when you're watching a guy hit 60 homers, it's so clear what history looks like. When you look at Aaron Judge, here's the thing that jumped out at me the most. It's not so much that he's leading the league in all those categories that Dave mentioned. It's that he leads the league by so much. When I looked at this, this was Friday. This is the last time I looked, he was leading the league in on base percentage by 65 points. He was leading the league in slugging by 89 points, and he was leading the league in OPS by 186 points. That's unheard of. So I took a lot of time to do this. I went. I went back trying to find how many players since the MVP award first came into existence have ever led in on base by at least 50 points, slugging by at least 80, and OPS by at least 100. It was a short list, men. It was Ted Williams and Barry Bonds, and that is all. So how do we measure that kind of history? You know, in the end, I decided that when a guy is doing that, when he's having that kind of impact and he's like, his team was in big trouble in August, right? And he. He got them back straightened out, and they. And they wound up with, as Dave said, tied for the best record in the American League. I felt like Aaron Judge checked those boxes, and yet I felt guilty. I still do that. I didn't pick Cal Raleigh. So does that make sense? What do you think, Rick?

[Rick Riz]

I so respectfully disagree. Because, you know, are we choosing the MVP on numbers, or are we choosing an MVP for what he meant to his baseball team? And that, to me is the most important thing than numbers. Because we're talking about a catcher here doing what Cal has done. Because, you know, in 1959, it was Nelly Fox who was the MVP in the American League, not Ted Williams or Mickey Mantle or anybody like that. In 1988, it was Kirk Gibson. He was the most valuable guy to The Dodgers. In 2000, it was Miguel Tejada. Cal Raleigh this year is the most Valuable player to what he did for the Mariners. The Mariners haven't won a division title in 24 years. We're talking about history. You talk about history. That's history. Cal hit 34 home runs last year and had 100 RBIs this year. The 60 home runs, more than any catcher in the history of the game of baseball. And again, guys, he did as a catcher, he posted up all the time. So you wrap up that history with the numbers being a catcher. And I know Aaron Judge has had the great numbers, better batting average. But again, doing what Cal did as a catcher, taking a beating back there and hitting.250 was more valuable to me than Aaron Judge hitting.331 for his ball club. He had more home runs than Judge. He had more RBIs than Judge. He was out there on the field 121 games as a catcher. Judge was out there in right field I think for 95 games. And again, either guy deserves this. But when you talk about what this young man has done this season for his ball club, what he meant to the Mariners, to the fan base here, getting us to the Division Series title and a chance for the buy and a chance to, you know, get to the World Series for the very first time. Cal Raleigh is the mvp. I want to get away from the numbers. I want to take a look at the valuable part. To me, Cal Raleigh is the mvp.

[Dave Sims]

It's interesting you say that because again, the super metrics got Felix that, that Cy Young award back in 12, whenever the year. Was this gonna be a close vote? Because both arguments are very strong. This is not gonna be a runaway. I'd be stunned if one runs away from the other. I think it's probably, I know it's gonna be with about four or five points, no more than 10.

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[Jason Stark]

Oh, the car from Carvana's here.

[Rick Riz]

Well, will you look at that.

[Jason Stark]

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[Rick Riz]

Like, precisely.

[Jason Stark]

It would be crazy if there were any catches. But there aren't, right?

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[Jason Stark]

If you vote for Aaron Judge, you're not wrong. If you vote for Cal Raleigh, you're not wrong. There are two right answers. And you know, here's one of the things, Rick, this is to your point, we probably have too many voters now who just take out their wins above replacement leaderboard and that's how they vote. And that's not how we should vote, especially on catchers. Doug, speak to this. Is there any metric ever invented that measures what a catcher means? I don't think so.

[Doug Glanville]

Yeah, I don't think you, you can really even quantify, qualify what, what a catcher does. I mean, you know, Dan Wilson being the manager of the Mariners, you know, you know, he's done a few games and I ask him all the time, just from his chair being a catcher in Seattle, you know, what does it look like? And there's no words really to explain what, what Cal Raleigh is doing because you take a beating. But that's almost an understatement, right? It's the concussions, it's the foul balls. You're always hurt. You're always hurt. And you're not hurt because of just wear and tear. You threw a ball, you're hurt because you're in a collision environment all the time, right? And you have a lot of responsibilities that no position player has. Like, I didn't have to get to the game. You know, I didn't have to watch videos for, you know, 35 hours, you know, just to prepare for some game. I mean, he's there all the time. And it's not just him, right? He's managing the staff, and the staff is really good, by the way, which is part of the reason that he deserves a lot of credit for that. So there's no question that, you know, the workload of a catcher is just another level. And that, you know, speaks to my point earlier. That's why you have catchers that hit.180 and are in the big leagues. You never get away with that anywhere else unless you're hitting 60 home runs or something. You have to give catchers the latitude to not hit well because you have to do 300 other jobs. And you look at rookies come up, you know, I think of Joey Bart or, you know, I just think of guys that are. Had a lot of trouble adjusting because they have so many jobs and how do you get to the big leagues and, and actually be able to manage it? So I, you know, it's a bonus. It's an X factor that goes in Kyle Raleigh's column. No question about it. You can't say the same for Judge from a defensive standpoint. But what you can say offensively, he is, he is just in a class by himself. He is the best hitter in baseball. And it's not, it's not even close even adding Ohtani in there. And Ohtani gets the points because he pitches. But if you talk about singular hitter and look, I don't love the bias that has always existed in our voting that. Offense, offense, Offense, Offense, Offense, offense. I mean, the Gold Glove award offense, you know, so I think they finally have gotten, you know, away from that. So I, I really want to put my thumb on the scale for something else because Judge is by himself. It is, it's going to be a phenomenal vote. I can't wait to see the results of this one.

[Jason Stark]

Let me ask you a question that somebody asked me the other day that's been on my mind and then we'll move on. We should talk about the post season a little bit, right? In 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, when people look back on this MVP election, if we elect Judge or if we elect Raleigh, how will we be looking? How will they be looking back on that then? I mean, I look at some of these hall of Fame votes now. Like all the years that Ted Williams didn't win, Willie Mays probably should have won 10 MVP awards. That didn't happen. Okay? So history will look at our process here and say, what was up with that? So how are they? Let me just ask you this, Rick. If Cal Raleigh doesn't win this award, how do you think history and future generations will look back on that vote?

[Rick Riz]

To me, it be kind of a shame because he's put together the greatest season ever in the history of baseball as a catcher. And I'm looking at it in my lens as a baseball fan since I was five years old growing up on the south side of Chicago to see, like I said, Nelly Fox win and Kirk Gibson win and Miguel Tejada and the others who deserved it because they were the most valuable. I hope that they look back at this and say, you know, if Cal wins this award, and I really hope he does, he deserved it because he was the most valuable to his team that we. We got away from the metrics and the analytics and we chose the right guy. And Aaron Judge deserves the honor, too. But I hope that they look at it like this guy was the most valuable guy to his team in that season and that he deserved. Deserved the award. I talked to Salvador Perez when we were in Kansas City. He went by Sal for the home run record for a catcher, primary catcher. And I sat in his locker and he said he was very appreciative of what Cal has done. He was happy for Cal. He said, catching is the most difficult thing to do on the baseball field. I said, what was it like for you? He says it was really tough. And he pointed out that Cal is doing it as a switch hitter to have both sides of the plate going. He said, one side of the plate, you might be 70% really good, 30% not so good. And Salvi said, this guy's 100% from both sides of the plate. Anyway, to answer your question, I hope the voters or the fans look upon this year as this guy having the singular best year for the MVP award because he deserves it.

[Jason Stark]

And Dave, what do you think if Aaron Judge doesn't win the MVP this year and people look back on his numbers 10, 20 years from now, what do you think they'll say?

[Dave Sims]

When I talked about New York fatigue, Judge fatigue, I think that'll be. That's a factor, I think back when, respectfully, for Terry Pendleton, the year he won, and Bonds numbers, as I remember, were really good. And they said that was Bonds fatigue and he didn't win an mvp. So, you know, every now and then you talk about Mays not winning multiples. It's an imperfect system, to say the least. You know, as Joe Tory said, it's a perfect game played by imperfect people. And certainly the voters are not perfect as well. You know, people will shake their heads like, what the hell are you thinking about? But, you know, it's not going to change. You know, it's not going to move the sun, moon, moon and earth, I'll tell you that. But it's a great discussion that has a chance, that no matter who wins, this is discussion next 100 years, man, did you see what happened at 25. I'm telling you, it's going to be nuts.

[Jason Stark]

I think you're right. And again, Rick, to your point, I'm glad you made it. There's a reason that humans vote and we don't just feed this into a computer. So that's what makes it so interesting and so much fun. Let me ask you guys about the postseason. Who do you think is more dangerous? The Yankees who went 32 and 12 over the last seven weeks, or the Mariners who just went 17 and 1 in September?

[Dave Sims]

Collision course, baby. Collision course. Could be.

[Jason Stark]

Could be.

[Dave Sims]

That'd be a hell of a series. I'd look forward to coming to panel. That'd be great.

[Jason Stark]

I know, right? So, Dave, how dangerous are the Yankees right now?

[Dave Sims]

Judge is hitting. Stanton is back. Ben Rice, 25 home runs. Bellinger, 29 home runs. Jazz Chisholm, 31 run. It's not always about the home run, but that's how they went. There have been instances where it had sacrifice flies at the right time. They've moved runners along at the right time. Maybe not enough, but more than what they had been doing, the bullpen is shaped up where now you're not freaking out when the gate opens. And here comes one of the relievers, you know, like, oh, God, here we go again. Because that was middle part of the season. Bednar's been a rock. Devin Williams is pretty much back to where he was. The guy that we knew that won a rookie of the year, reliever of the year award. Weaver is back throwing the ball well. Fernando Crusoe got four or five guys who are really on track. Start three starters, Freed, Rodin, Schlitler pitching well. I just think overall, they've got. They got the swag working again. Planet Yankee Stadium for these, hopefully two games, three games max against Boston. It's going to be a hell of a series. I know that. The other team, the Mariners, I like what they've done, and I wish I was there when you know. And Rick, you got a chance. You've been waiting for this for a long time to get a nailer to get. And should have never let Geno go.

[Jason Stark]

All right.

[Dave Sims]

Should have never let Geno Suarez go. Big mistake. They bring Naylor in. He's been a tremendous contributor. The kid at second bait, the young kid, he's been great. So. And the pitching staff is outstanding. So again, how many times we said this? Don't sleep on Cleveland Voter should be manager of the year again, for my money. I mean, what they.

[Jason Stark]

I think he's right. I think he's gonna be.

[Dave Sims]

They catch the ball, they pitch, they don't slug, but they like. Next thing you know, you're down.

[Doug Glanville]

They have a negative run differential.

[Dave Sims]

Out of his mind. Last year, they don't have him. And the other kids, the Perez kid, they're going and they're getting it done. It's amazing. I'd be fearful of that team.

[Jason Stark]

It is.

[Doug Glanville]

Rick.

[Jason Stark]

I want you to know that Dan Schulman and Tom Hamilton were here last week. They both said the team that they would least want to play in the American League is the Mariners. So are they right?

[Rick Riz]

They're right. The Mariners are the most dangerous team right now in the American League, and I'll tell you why. Last year, the starting five was the best starting five in all the basement. When you had Castillo, you know, Bryce Miller and Logan Gilbert and George Kirby and Brian Wu. Brian Wu turned out to be one of the best pitchers in all the baseball this year. He had a little bit of sort of a pec muscle. He's going to be in the rotation hopefully for the American League Division Series. But in the early part of the season, three of those guys were hurt. George Kirby started the year on the il, was out for two months. Logan Gilbert started the year, got off to a great start, but then he was hurt. He was out for about two months. Bryce Miller has had issues all season long, twice on the IL with elbow issues. In the meantime, kids stepped up, like Logan Evans and Emerson Hancock. The Rock was the Rock. Woo stepped up. So now consider what they did for the ball club to hold the fort. Now here comes Logan Gilbert back and George Kirby back. Bryce Miller's been pitching better. Chances are he's going to probably be in the bullpen for the postseason. So now the Mariners have their big guys back. Woo and Gilbert, Kirby and Luis Castillo has been absolutely amazing ever since the Mariners got him in at July of 2022. It helped us get us a postseason back then. And then what the Mariners needed was the offense. They needed not one, but two bats and Jerry Depot and Justin Hollander. They went out and got Josh Naylor and A Eugenio Suarez from the Arizona Diamondbacks. And they did it without touching their top 10 prospects in the organization. These kids are on the way. Lasaro Montez and Colt Emerson and Ryan Sloan and Johnny Farmello. They're on their way just like the group of Gilbert and Kirby and Brian Wu were, you know, six, seven years ago. So with the addition of, you know, Naylor and Suarez and lineup, the lineup gets a lot deeper. Crawford now Doing much better at the bottom part of the order. Randy at the top of the order. Julio Rodriguez is still one of the best players in the game of baseball. What he's doing in the second half, he elected not to go to the All Star game because he wanted to be with his ball club, for his ball club in the second half of the season. Can you imagine that? And he hit over.300 in the second half of the season. 20 plus home runs, over 50 RBIs. So this club with the starters back now and healthy, you got Munoz at the back end. Caleb Ferguson was added to at the trade deadline to help out. Gabe Spires had a great year. Is another lefty down in the bullpen. So I'm excited about this team. We've never been to the World Series and this is a team that can get us to the World Series. Not only get there but win it. And Dan Wilson has done an amazing job as a first year manager, first full year as a manager. He's going to get a lot of votes for manager of the year award. And the coaching staff, he goes gives the coaching staff a lot of credit for Danny to do what he's doing and to hold all that together. When the pitchers were struggling and when the Mariners needed offense in the first half of the year to get the acquisitions of Naylor and Suarez and bring the kids. Did a great job too. Coming up to help out. This is the most dangerous team in the American League.

[Dave Sims]

Having said that, baseball happens and there's no kimmies, there's no guarantees, not at all.

[Rick Riz]

But what I've seen with this baseball.

[Dave Sims]

Team, it looks good. I understand the excitement. I've been there with you for some of it, the near misses we've had. But I don't think anybody's a lock right now. I mean this a toss up. I mean the Padres, that's a good looking ball club and with all hands on deck. And I get that if the bullpen, you know, gets itself straightened out. Toronto, they own the Yankees this year and I call them the non bold face name Bargers Straw Davis. Schneider freaking killed us. It helped the fact, helped by the fact that we didn't make some plays. But that's a good group right there. Gosman's a heck of a pitcher to bullpen. It's, it's okay, maybe a little bit better than average. There's a lot of good and you know, who knows what. The Dodgers, they get like 400 pitches.

[Doug Glanville]

They definitely do.

[Dave Sims]

You know, I think this is going to be a heck of A really dope.

[Jason Stark]

Let's let Doug get his two cents in here.

[Doug Glanville]

I've seen all these teams, and yeah, the Mariners are really dangerous. I mean, there's no doubt about it. I mean, they, you know, they won the trade deadline. You know, they got the power that they needed, and that's what plays in the postseason. You know, if you hit the home runs, those teams tend to win. And they're now on that board where they can, you know, Polanco, all these guys can hit home runs. Crawford, they're going to have some swing and miss. So I think they're going to have to figure out like, okay, when they face the power guy, how does that play out? But they're also become pretty athletic as well. And I think there's no coincidence. We're talking about two teams that kind of won the trade deadline. The Yankees went out and got like two more closers, as if they needed anything. So they got. We didn't even mention Doval, right? We didn't even mention this guy. He had 39 cents.

[Dave Sims]

He's coming back in the form, too.

[Doug Glanville]

Exactly like Aaron Boone. Every time we spoke with him, he talked about they got more athletic. So whether it's McMahon at third base, you know, they can run now. Jazz Chisholm 30, 30. So Caballero. Yeah, Caballero is like, he got the swagger. These teams are incredible. And I saw the Blue Jays this year. I just saw them on a bad day. They didn't hit, they didn't score. You know, it's hard, hard to tell what they're capable of, but they've been tough all year. So the American League is. It's wide open, which is fun.

[Jason Stark]

Can I ask you guys what this post season means to you personally? You know, Rick, you've called Mariners baseball for a lot of years. It's been a long time since you even got to call a Mariners victory in Seattle. Right. 2000 ALCS was the last time. So what does it mean to you that the Mariners are about to tee it up with home field advantage in this round?

[Rick Riz]

Jason, that's a great question. It just means so much to me as a, as a fan, you know, and I've got to be on the microphone to bring all the play by play and make the fans see it on the radio to have this type of excitement. We just haven't been there enough. And like I said, we've never been to the World Series. So for me, it's, it's huge. But I keep thinking about the fans here in the Pacific Northwest, you know, we made it in 1995 and that was one of the most amazing comebacks in the history of the game of baseball. We were 13 games out of first place place. Junior shattered his wrist on May 29th of 1995. Didn't come back to the middle of August, but they hung in there. California took a dive and we just kept winning and ended up tied with the California Angels. Had the one game playoff and Randy Johnson pitched against Mark Langston. And that saved baseball in Seattle, that game, that, that team. And then they went to New York, lost two games, and then came back and won three games. That team, the way they did it, saved baseball in the Northwest. We went there and went to the playoffs in 97 and 2000. 2001 was our year. Won one more games than anybody in the history of the game of baseball. But that year, you know, with the attack, you know, and 9, 11, everything people were rooting for, you know, pulling for New York. And it was just, just a tough situation right there for the whole country. We were trying to, you know, get everybody back. But we haven't won a division series since 2001. And I can't wait to help bring the fans back there to have a chance to get, to get to the World Series. So me personally, I'm thrilled. I'm a fan again. They made me a fan of the game of baseball to see our guys get to this point the way they fought so hard to get here. And now they're primed to do a lot of damage and win a lot of games in the off season, in the postseason.

[Dave Sims]

Rick, you were held during those losing seasons too. Don't, don't, don't shirt yourself.

[Jason Stark]

Dave, what does this mean to you? Look, you're a New Yorker and now you're going to, this week you're going to call Yankees, Red Sox in the Bronx.

[Dave Sims]

I was telling some guys earlier, I don't think I'll need any coffee tomorrow. You know, I mean, I'm fired up today. I can only imagine how I'll feel tomorrow. 608, first pitch. I'll probably get there about 11 30. I want to get there early. I want to soak up every bit of atmosphere. I want to walk the hallways and look at the giganto pictures of all the Yankee immortals in a million years. I never thought it'd be in a place like this. I thought that I was probably going to finish my career in Seattle. I love my time there with Rick and the fellas, but this was an opportunity that could not be passed up. And I've got about 100 guys told me they had a shot me had I not taken it. So this is very exciting. And especially growing up knowing who the Yankees are with what the 41 pennants, the 27 World Series titles, and Rick and I are the same age. I can remember every October.

[Jason Stark]

Hi, everybody.

[Dave Sims]

Mel, Al, and welcome to Wildfire. You know, hearing that whole thing and now I get to call on radio. It is amazing.

[Doug Glanville]

I'm in heaven doing what I'm doing. Being able to see all these teams all season long and then like bring the context on, on the biggest stage for it. And so just doing this Dodger Red series, I mean, I always think back of my. My childhood being a Phillies fan and the Dodgers knocking out the Phillies every year, which drove me crazy. 77, 77 and 78. It's like, oh, and. And then the big Red machine, you know, just thinking about how dominant they were beating up on the Yankees and which was impossible back then. They found a way. Feels like very nostalgic. And the fact that the Cubs are in the postseason as well, I don't know how often, how many times Phillies and Cubs recent history, not too often it seems that they're both, both in it. So. But I'm excited to, you know, see what Ohtani is going to do in la and if he's going to pitch, is he going to hit? Is he going to bat right handed? Like, what is he going to do? You know, So I. There's a lot. And then Terry Francona was my manager in Philly, so the fact that he got in, in this crazy way, but pulled it off, I don't know how he did it. I mean, I saw the Reds, Mets towards the end of the season and you know, they're just trying to generate offense. They're trying to figure it out. And at the time, De La Cruz was really struggling. I was like, they're dead in the water. But, you know, somehow it's a lot of fun just to see someone's got to give the brewers some love. I'm just going to throw it out there. It's like, oh, they have the best record of baseball. Oh, by the way, I think it's.

[Dave Sims]

Great that all 11 of their last 13, right in the playoffs. Yeah, they're just some kind of crazy.

[Doug Glanville]

Number like that, right? There's so many good teams. I don't see it as mediocrity. I just see a lot of good teams with like, subtle, subtle differences and maybe weaknesses, but they're very human. And that's why I think it's like anybody's ballgame.

[Rick Riz]

Hey, Jason, I just want to add one thing real quick. I grew up on the south side of Chicago and I remember as a 6 year old kid the White Sox getting into the World Series in 1959. Then the Cubs really had a long drought and they won in 2016. And Jack Brickhouse, longtime Hall of Fame broadcaster for the Cubs, once said, hey, anybody can have a bad spot century. They finally won in 2016. My mother up in heaven is the. Was the biggest Cub fan in the world. You know, for us to be in this position to get to the World Series, one of the most exciting things for me, the White Sox finally won in 2005, but I'm, I'm more happy for the fans here in the Pacific Northwest. But this is, this is wonderful history and that's why we, we root for our teams, you know, to get to the postseason and win a World Series and we have a shot to this year. I'm excited for the fans.

[Jason Stark]

Yeah, it's exciting. Okay, so one more thing and then we gotta run. Rick, I have to ask you about this. We were laughing about it when I saw you in Philadelphia a few weeks ago in Cooperstown this summer, there was a guy named Ichiro who gave a speech. And in his hall of Fame speech, he did something, I bet that got your attention. Let's hear it.

[Rick Riz]

My arm was already in shape waiting for Marinette's broadcaster, Rick R. To say, holy smoke. Laser beam strike. Romoichiro. I got goosebumps again.

[Jason Stark]

Right. So if people don't know what that is. Ichiro did a Rick Riz impression on the stage in Cooperstown with the whole world watching. What do you think? Best impression of you ever by a Hall of Famer.

[Rick Riz]

Yes, and the only time it'll ever happen. But we were. I didn't get a chance to go because we were doing the game in Anaheim against the Angels. So I'm doing the play by play and Gary Hill, my broadcast partner, is watching on an iPad the ceremonies. And here's a swing and a ground ball to Netto at short backhands, long throw the first got him two outs. And Gary looked at me like this. He went, ichiro just gave you a shout out. And I'm thinking, in what context? When he mentioned my name, you know, and it was, it was that play he told me, you know, Ramon Hernandez got a base hit into right field. Terence Long was on at first base. And Long can run. And Ichiro Charged that ball and he threw a ball that no hump to it. Just like Doug Glanville, just a shot, you know. David Bell just sat there like this, got the ball, dropped his glove, and Long was out at third base. And to me, it looked like a laser beam. So I yelled, laser beam throw. And he got him. Dave Niehaus had a great call, too. On tv. He said, I think he threw something out of Star Wars. But Ichiro told me that had an impression because that play put him on the map. Ground ball, base in, into right field. Heading for third is Terence Long. The throw by Ichiro. Beautiful. Peggy, get him. Holy smoke. A laser beam strike from Ichiro to the third baseman David Bell. And Terence Long is gunned down at third base. What a throw. Two outs. It was like his first week in the big leagues. And we're playing the A's in Oakland. And he wasn't even the starting lineup that day. Went out to. He went to pinch hit, then went out to play right field. And all of a sudden, here's this play and I can still see it in my mind. And it had an impression on him. But he said, because of that play, he said it felt like it put him on the map. And everybody went, this guy can be the first position player to come over from Japan and be successful. And my goodness, was he. He turned into a Hall of Fame career. But that was amazing. I was shocked and thrilled and I thanked him. I gave him a big hug when I saw him when he came back from the hall of Fame induction speech. That was a lot of fun.

[Jason Stark]

You put him on the map. He put you on the map, man. The map of Cooperstown. Dave, Rick, you guys are the best. We could hang out with you in Starkville the whole month of October. Doug will let you know when your statues are ready to be unveiled in the Starkville town square. Doug, you have any updates on their statues?

[Doug Glanville]

Yeah, we're starting to go to paper mache because we're low on other materials. So, yeah, we're going to give it to a couple sixth grade classes and they're going to put it together for us.

[Jason Stark]

We are low on all the material, that's for sure. Look, I always tell my broadcaster friends every October, I hope this is the year you get to give that call of a lifetime. So I hope that for you guys. Thank you so much for fitting us in. You're the best guys.

[Dave Sims]

Appreciate it. Rico, good to see you, man.

[Rick Riz]

Y' all were all the mvp.

[Dave Sims]

Yeah.

[Jason Stark]

Just so we know where you stand on that.

[Rick Riz]

Thanks a lot, guys.

[Jason Stark]

That was fun and that was amazing. Thank you.

[Doug Glanville]

See you somewhere.

[Rick Riz]

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[Jason Stark]

Strange but true. We just love this segment and we always do. And this week, Doug, we have an all timer. I want to express our thanks to the great sport of baseball for always keeping us supplied with strange but true material every week of the season. It's a miracle. This week we have a crazy play I know that you were really excited about because A, you witnessed it in person and B, you texted me immediately after you saw it. So let's hear it. This was Wednesday night in Toronto. Two outs in the ninth. Red Sox against the Blue Jays. Red Sox up 7 1. Looking for that last out of the game. Here's one thing I know. They never thought they'd get it this way.

[Rick Riz]

Tolle trying to end the ball game. A 12 pitch line driver to base it into right. So Kirk keeps it going. He's out. He is out. How about that?

[Jason Stark]

So did you get all that? Alejandro Kirk lined what even Dave o' Brien thought was a single to write. But you know who did not think it was a single? William Abreu, who was playing right for the Red Sox. So he threw out Alejandro Kirk. Nine three at first base. So it's nine three in your scorecard. And Doug, this was a walk off. Nine three out. You were there. What was it like to watch and describe that play?

[Doug Glanville]

I kind of felt the same way. I was like, okay, any line drive to right, you know, okay, that's a hit. You know, you just kind of base it to right? And then I was like, wait a minute, Kirk is running, and he hit that ball like, I don't know, like 106 miles an hour. He hit it well. And Abreu didn't hesitate. He was, like, already thinking about it. You know, a lot of times in the outfield, like, oh, let me back up. Let me make sure it doesn't go by me. And you play it safe, because he got this lead. And Andrea was like, no, he was completely geared up, as if he, like, studied the scouting report and saw that Kirk only had one career stolen base, you know, which happened this year out of, like, thousands of games, it seemed. So I'm watching this. I was like. And I kept thinking, as a game ended like this, you know, you see it once in a while, pitchers back in the day hitting night. But I can't remember too many times a position player did that and then ended the game. So I was like, this is completely wacky. Sure enough. But, yeah, you saw it unfold right in front of us, like. And he was out by a lot, by the way. There wasn't bang, bang. There was no challenge flag, instant replay. He was just out by a lot.

[Jason Stark]

Yeah. So you thought this was completely wacky, which meant you were going to reach out to the international house of wackiness. Meaning me.

[Doug Glanville]

Yes, absolutely.

[Jason Stark]

So we asked the question, how strange but true was this, really? Well, these plays do happen. You know, Tommy Pham got thrown out from left field a few weeks ago. Thought he had a single. No, he didn't. Sean Casey had one. Probably the most famous ever for having that happen. Right. Single, left. Didn't know where the ball was out at first. But when it's left field, it's a little different. Because usually that's because the hitter doesn't pick up the ball. He thought it was a catch and it was a trap, something like that. Right. But right field is different. Right field, back when pitchers used to hit, pitchers used to get thrown out all the time, okay? Because they'd hit. They hit a ball through the right side or they hit a line drive, and they didn't go motoring down the line. They're going to milk this trip the first after they got a hit. But, whoops, the right fielder had other ideas.

[Doug Glanville]

Well, the right field is also playing, like, three feet into the grass. You know, they were, like, very helpful.

[Jason Stark]

So did you Ever pull this on anybody? Doug, I know you mostly played center.

[Doug Glanville]

I don't think I did. I. At least I can't think of it. Certainly not in the big leagues. I didn't have a lot of right field starts out there, but I certainly would have tried if I could.

[Jason Stark]

I think you were on the Phillies when somebody pulled it on Kurt Schilling. Does that sound familiar?

[Doug Glanville]

That's possible. That is definitely possible.

[Jason Stark]

His was really hilarious because the throw hit him in the helmet. So he told me. Yeah, I was using my head there, definitely. Anyway, so we know it. Those plays do happen occasionally. But let's talk about the part that we're pretty sure never happens. A nine to three out at first for the last out of the game on what should have been a hit. So I can't personally look this up. Right. But I could ask our friend Katie Sharp, helps us all the time from Baseball Reference. She's amazing. Asked her to check this. So the Baseball Reference database goes back to 1912. Doug. She went back to 1912. She kind of found one other game ending nine, three out where there were no other outs. But it was so different than this. This was back in 1947, Dodger game. There's a game winning single. The runner in third scored the winning run. But the play by play is a little sketchy. It looks like the guy who hit the single got tagged out running between first and second. Like none of that makes any sense. But we just know it wasn't this.

[Doug Glanville]

It wasn't a force out.

[Jason Stark]

Right. So then I then I asked her, has this ever happened on a ball hit anywhere else in the outfield to end a game? So she looked again and Doug, this is the point of the show where I ask you, how many plays do you think she found back in 1912 where a game ended on a walk off out at first base on what looked like a hit to the outfield? How many plays you think she found?

[Doug Glanville]

Well, I'm going to go zero because I imagine pitchers probably weren't hitting at that point. Right. You know. You know, yeah, they're not going to hit two outs. They would be still in the game. So, yeah, I think zero is a safe bet on that. I like zero.

[Jason Stark]

He gets it every week, so you must really like it. Yep, zero would be correct. Once again, the Starkville number of the day is zero. Nobody had ever done that, gotten a hit with two outs in the ninth, except, oops, it was not a hit. The guy was so slow getting down the line that he got thrown out Baseball is a very strange sport, Doug. But of course that's a good thing. Doug, I mentioned this earlier. Did you know we have a hotline where people can call and ask us stuff, ideally baseball stuff?

[Doug Glanville]

Yep. I love it. I did have a number, but I forgot my code.

[Jason Stark]

You invented a catch up slogan so people would remember the number and now you can't even remember the number.

[Doug Glanville]

Yeah, it was too complicated, but I'm going to bring it back.

[Jason Stark]

Well, however this happened, we had some great calls this week. We're going to answer a couple of them right here in this segment, which we now have a name for. We're calling it the Call to the Bullpen. Even though it doesn't appear that we're actually in a bullpen, let's ignore that part. Okay. So if you would like to ask us stuff and then have us answer that stuff on the show, you can call that Hotline, the number 267-227-9867. And please remember to leave us your name when you call. You'll see why. Okay, so we have two fun calls we're taking this week. Let's get to them. Doug. Our first call is from a very friendly woman who will be known as the caller to be named later because she forgot to leave her name.

[Doug Glanville]

That's okay.

[Jason Stark]

Yeah. Which is fine because she is such a big fan of our show. She apparently is not too sure who you are either.

[Doug Glanville]

That's okay.

[Jason Stark]

But she definitely has a feeling for the vibe here in Starkville. Let's listen to her question.

[Caller]

Here's my question for Jason and Rob. And I thought for sure this was going to be their crazy moment of the week. But if not, they've got to make sure they know about this and that's that. When Cal Raleigh hit the home run to pass Mickey Mantle, apparently Mike Jaskrimsky was playing the outfield. And the Mariners announcer said that when Mickey Mantle set the record, Carl Yusremski was playing in the outfield. So that's gotta be strange, but true for sure. So I hope they don't know that. Now they do. Thanks.

[Jason Stark]

Now we do. First off, Doug, is it okay if I call you Rob?

[Doug Glanville]

That's fine. Yeah. In Starkville, we have many names.

[Jason Stark]

Yeah, look, we know that was just a slip of the tongue. Sure it was. We love recall. So, Doug, I took a look at this. So when Mickey Mantle hit his 54th home run, which set the record for most home runs by a switch hitter, which had held up for over six decades, he hit it on September 23, 1961, at Fenway off a pitcher named Don Schwall. And she was right. Karl Ystremski was in fact playing left field for the Red Sox in that game. Now, the home run was hit to right field, so it didn't exactly go flying over his head. But here's what matters. Yastrzemsky had an excellent view of it, and that's the important part. Am I right, Doug?

[Doug Glanville]

That's right. He saw it. He witnessed it firsthand on the field.

[Jason Stark]

So now rolling the calendar forward many years, Cal Raleigh breaks Mickey Mantle's record. This year he hit his 55th home run, also on the road, this time in Kansas City. And once again, a Yastremsky wasn't left, failed, and the home run was hit to right field. Which is fine. We. Because either way, we love this. Doug, isn't it amazing how the baseball gods work? And isn't it amazing that we didn't notice this, but our listeners did?

[Doug Glanville]

That's beautiful. That means they're absorbing all the stark billion instincts that is required to find this stuff. I think that's what we need. We need maybe we open up a university and continue to teach how you find factoids such as this.

[Jason Stark]

Oh, man.

[Doug Glanville]

So that's. I'm going to work on that building.

[Jason Stark]

Fund right now when we first teach that course at Rob Glanville University. I think it'll be a big hit.

[Doug Glanville]

It will be a big hit.

[Jason Stark]

Okay, so, Doug, our next caller is a guy named Daniel who does seem to know your name, which is a good sign. He also had an interesting question about the rules of baseball. So let's hear that one.

[Caller]

Hi, my name is Daniel Gant. I'm calling from San Diego, California, where I'm a native Californian and yet maybe a lifelong Mets fan. I say maybe because I can't remember all the way back, but I know I've been a Mets fan since high school, when Doc Gooden and Daryl Strawberry were making their rookie debuts and the Mets were winning the World Series. So last time. Anyhow, my question for you, or maybe it's more to get your thoughts about it, is why do pitchers not earn a W even if they leave the game with the lead, Their team gives up the lead, but later on their team regains the lead and wins the game. I know it might seem a little odd, but I'm just wondering the history behind this. And I know that the win isn't valued today, so to speak, but it is for people who really like pitcher's duels. And I Know, there aren't many of those either, so just wondering about that. I'm sure there'll never be a change, I'm guessing, in that, but it seems like something could be done that's a little more fair to the starting pitcher. I'd love to hear your comments on that. All right, thanks very much. I've never missed a single episode. At least I think I haven't. And I love the show. Love your guys writing and all of your insights on baseball. Take care.

[Jason Stark]

That was great. He's never missed a show.

[Doug Glanville]

Yeah.

[Jason Stark]

Doug, you almost missed this show. Luckily, the plane lane.

[Doug Glanville]

I know I've missed the show before. I mean, that's amazing.

[Jason Stark]

I missed you myself. Anyway, Daniel seems to be intimating that the rules of baseball make no sense sometimes. Doug, do you think he's onto something?

[Doug Glanville]

He is definitely onto something. I've logged many protests. The running lane. I feel very proud that that has lasted as long as it has. In what year are we at year two yet? I don't know. Maybe year one, but year two?

[Jason Stark]

Yeah, it's good.

[Doug Glanville]

Year two. Beautiful. So, yes, I 100% support questioning the rules here and see if we can adapt them if necessary with the changing times.

[Jason Stark]

Right.

[Doug Glanville]

So great point.

[Jason Stark]

Yeah. So I think Daniel's problem here is he's being way too logical. And it's baseball. So obviously that doesn't apply. Just because one pitcher gets like 20 outs and another pitcher gets, say, one out, why should logic apply to which one of those two gets the win? He's right. Logically it should. But I didn't know enough about the history of this rule, so I had to reach out to our friend John Thorne, who is the official historian of Major League Baseball, to see if he could give us more insight on this. And of course he could. Okay, so what John told me surprised me. Doug, did you know that before 1950, there were no guidelines at all on who should be credited with the win? So scorers back then basically did what Daniel wanted them to do. They just gave the win to the pitcher they thought pitched the best. Okay. And sometimes. How about this? They also did that with the loss. I never knew any of that. No idea. But then in 1950, that changed. I mean, it seems like it's been forever. Here's the thing. Back then, so many games were complete games anyway, it really didn't much matter. But now we're living in such a different world that maybe we do need a whole new set of rules on how to determine a win. Doug, you're a creative Guy, how would you do this?

[Doug Glanville]

You could do it alphabetically. If someone's name starts with a W, you could definitely give them a W. I mean, it makes sense.

[Jason Stark]

Kerry Wood would have been like a 600 game winner.

[Doug Glanville]

Yeah. Wood wins every time he steps on the field under that rule. So that's one way to look at it. Yeah, I think the complete game is, you know, we're so far away from it that, you know, it used to be kind of easy. Right. They pitched on nine innings, eight innings. You know, Bob Gibson just like, okay, win, loss. I do appreciate where wins above replacement or the concept comes from because, you know, why does the pitcher only get wins? I mean, didn't these other dudes do something out there?

[Jason Stark]

You know?

[Doug Glanville]

So I do get, like, it is a strange way to kind of give people these metrics and. But we're so far gone at this point. Like, you know, guys come in and pitch two thirds of an inning after giving up five runs, and it's kind of a mess. But I do appreciate when they talk about the team's record. When a certain pitcher starts a game, there's sort of like, that's in the vein of trying to at least recognize that the starter did a lot of work or the. In games that they start, like Imanaga with the Cubs, Shota seems to be a guy that every time he starts to seem to win a whole lot of games. So even though he doesn't, quote, get, he might not a new decision or whatever it is. So I think there's a lot of things that could be looked into because it's a different day with tons of relievers, tons of people contributing. It gets a little bit confusing.

[Jason Stark]

Yeah. So you just had a brilliant idea. I think you're arguing that the scorer should be able to award the win to whoever he thinks deserves it. And it can be a position player. Doesn't have to be a pitcher. Okay, so Cal Raleigh, he would have led the league and wins this year. Might have. Right? I love this. We are, like, we are really breaking ground here. And Daniel had no idea this is where it was going to lead us. But, Daniel, I have bad news for you. Nobody listens to my brilliant ideas, Doug's brilliant ideas, or in this case, your brilliant idea. You're thinking sound. Your thinking's logical. Baseball isn't sound or logical. So I applaud your thinking. I love your question. But this won't ever happen. I'm pretty sure. Okay. Either way, though, we love the call. We love your calls. Please call us this is a fun segment. Okay, that's gonna do it for this week's show. Doug, thanks for playing. Thanks to Dave Simms and Rick Riz for visiting us. Thanks to our mystery Mariners fan and to Daniel for the fun questions on our hotline. Thanks to the Mayor of Starkville, Brian Smith, for producer us and putting up with us. And thanks to you for listening. Call our hotline with your baseball questions one more time. That number is 267-227-9867 or email [e-mail] and while you're doing that, Doug and I will see you soon. How can you grow your business from idea to industry leader?

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