← The Windup: A show about Baseball
The Windup: A show about Baseball
Starkville | Will Sammon & Matt Gelb talk about an interesting NL East Offseason
01:00:40
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Cancel Contact Us Finance Agreement 256 gigabytes $830 required Visit T mobile.com hey folks, it's Mark Marin from WTF. Today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. Boost Mobile offers the coverage, network speed and service you're used to, but it more aff affordable prices. Why pay more if you don't have to? You can get an unlimited plan for 25amonth that will never increase in price ever. No price hikes, no multi line requirements, no stress. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them online@boostmobile.com After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay 25 per month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan. Greetings and welcome to Starkville Baseball hall of Famer Jason Stark. And then the robot said strike. That's why you're going in the hall of Fame. It's an inside the park over on.
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Doug Glenn Mike Trot Is coffee at Starbucks with a double latte. Skinny.
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Doug, are you ready to make some podcast magic?
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I am ready. Bring on the magic wand. Let's do it.
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Greetings and welcome to Starkville. I'm Jason Stark. I write about baseball for the Athletic. And I am joined once again by my good friend, writer, substacker, broadcaster, professor, distinguished former major leaguer, and our favorite voice of baseball on espn, Doug Glanville. Yes, Doug, how are you, my friend? How was your Thanksgiving?
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B
It was great. Yeah, Great. You know, a lot of good food, a lot of friends popping in. So it's been a long standing tradition. We used to host growing up in New Jersey. So all my mom's brothers and sisters and family members who were close by, my dad's brother, would converge on our house. I remember sleeping, you know, on a floor somewhere just to accommodate all the people. A lot of cousins. So good memories. And we're, you know, trying to rekindle some new ones ourselves.
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C
Yeah, Thanksgiving is the best. And you know, I think it sounds like you can really enjoy your off season. There's probably more off in it for you than for most of us, am I right?
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B
Oh, yeah, yeah. I try to like, you know, regroup, you know, the game, the travel. But it's, it's great. It's a. It's a reset. They get to go, you know, a lot of the sports my kids play, I get to be there all the time. So it's fun.
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C
It feels like the World Series just ended like 20 minutes ago. But we find ourselves just days away from the winter meetings where the entire baseball world assembles to theoretically rock the world with non stop signings and trades. It's not exactly how it works all the time, but that's the idea. I don't know if that's how it's going to go next week, but I do know we have two of the best baseball beat writers on our planet. Matt Gelb, who covers the Phillies for the Athletic, and Will Simon, who covers the Mets for the Athletic. They're here, they're in Starkville. They're ready to talk about their teams and who knows what else. So let's bring them on. Hey, Doug. I am fascinated by the NLE this winter. I mean, fascinated. So let's talk about it with two guys who just crush it on their beats right here at the Athletic. Time to welcome in Matt Gel, who covers the Phillies like no one else. And Will Salmon, who has become the writer to read on the Mets. Matt, Will, welcome to Starkville. Have you guys been Here before. I can't remember.
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A
No, this is the first time for me, at least.
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C
That's right. Gilba's been here.
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B
Black Friday special, though, right? Rent is very cheap.
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Well, you should know that we have big plans for beautifying the town square. Gonna get a bunch of statues erected. Doug's in charge of that. Doug, you want to update us on how that's all going?
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B
Yeah, it's not really going, but. But in spirit, it's always going. So we. We don't have any statues officially, but we've promised at least 12,000. So we're a little behind.
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C
Yes, you guys will be on the list. Okay, let's talk about something more constructive. We got the winter meetings approaching. Your teams are under construction. So why don't we discuss how it's going? I feel like we should start by having you both recap the off season so far for your two teams. And I guess that means, Matt, you should go make lunch for your kids or something. The Mets have been busy. The Phillies, not so much. So, Will, let's start with the news that you broke Monday night. The Mets have added Devin Williams to their bullpen. Three years, 51 million bucks. And I know you've also reported, Will, that the Mets are still interested in resigning Edwin Diaz. Here's my take. I don't see this as just insurance for Edwin. I kind of see this as David Stern sending a message to Ed win. And the message would go, hey, we know you want another 100 million bucks from us, but now, you know, we don't have to do that. That's how I see it, Will. How do you see it?
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A
Well, I think your view, Jason, is probably pretty close to 100 on that, because David Stern sort of telegraphed what his intentions were at the end of the season, and it was a very disappointing season for the Mets. He said that he was open to changing up the Mets core group of players. When he was asked about that question, he reiterated multiple times the need to get better defensively for a team that was not good on defense, just from covering him over the years, especially while he has taken over for the Mets with a larger payroll, a larger budget. He and his front office, they act very disciplined, I would say, as opposed to other regimes for the Mets recently under Steve Cohen. Like, they act very, very disciplined when it comes to not going over what they consider to be the market asking price for a certain player. I think they're pretty cognizant of not being used. It's just because they're the Mets. And they're Steve Cohen. And I also think that they have, they do a really good job of calling information and understanding what the market is telling them. And so to your point about Diaz and Devin Williams, of course, I see it the same way too. Just because with Devin Williams you have a guy who does offer you that protection in case Edwin Diaz does walk. But I feel pretty confident in thinking that this guy is certainly capable of the ninth inning. He's proven that over the years and I feel like the Mets view that as well. And I don't think they go out of their way to, to sign this guy right now if they didn't think that. So yes, it could happen where he's pitching the 8th inning most of the time, but they're certainly comfortable, at least the way that I see it with him pitching the ninth, and rightfully so. He has the years of pedigree under his belt doing it. David Stearns watched him do it firsthand, of course. Of course.
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C
Yeah.
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And also give Devin a lot of credit actually for going back to New York after experiencing the ups and downs of playing for the Yankees just this past season. He could have gone elsewhere. He could have gone where it was a 100 shot to be a closer. He chose this. And so I think that says something about him as well.
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C
That actually brings me to a couple other things that I find really entertaining that go with this signing. The first one I'll just ask you about Will, but the second I want to ask all you guys. So the first thing is this makes two straight off seasons where the Yankees wanted to keep some big free agent, obviously the other was Juan Soto and instead that guy signed with the Mets. I'm going to say that has never ever happened with anybody in the history of free agency. And now it's happened two winners in a row. So we'll, I'm curious if, like if you see the deeper meaning in that anywhere.
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A
I think in the context of Devin, what I'm curious to kind of do more reporting on is just like how serious the Yankees were, like what their intentions were there with him, because I do think that they were interested to some extent. Now they have Bednar, he's solid, but he is not, you know, a top tier closer at least anymore. And they have some other question marks though in their bullpen where they lost guys to free agency, of course, so they definitely had a need there for it. I don't know if the need was enough for them to kind of go to maybe three years or the 51 total million dollars that Devin Williams got, I don't know. But it is an interesting point that you raised because it shows us just that, like when the Mets want their guy, and in this case it was Devin Williams for this spot, and last year, of course, it was Juan Soto. But when they want their guy, they're going to do what it takes to get him. I feel like. And that's also kind of a misconception with David Stearns as well, is that, oh, this guy's cheap or he's, he's just doing what he's doing with the Milwaukee Brewers. I think they're actually being very selective in the shots that they take. And when they do take shots, they go all in on those guys.
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C
I think that's very well said. Okay, here's my other thought. Devin Williams worst moment ever, ever happened against the Mets. Like the Pete Alonso homer in the 2024 playoffs. And then the Mets go out and sign that guy. I'm trying to think of like some parallel of this. Be like, Mitch Williams gives up the home run to Joe Carter to lose the World Series in 1993 and. And then goes to the Blue Jays. I'd love to hear all you chime in on just that part of this, Matt. Does that amaze you, too?
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D
Yeah, I'm trying to think. I mean, like, I can't think of a good comparison for that. I mean, you're right, it was an insane moment, one that eventually knocked the Phillies out of the playoffs because the Mets advanced to the nlts, and then they knock out the Phillies in a division rivalry series. I don't know. I mean, but I think now, I think because he's a year removed from it, right? I mean, it wasn't like it just happened six weeks ago. You know, maybe it's less of a thing, but certainly, I mean, it sounded like the Mets had at least something on Devin Williams and, you know, maybe that's one of the things they can use, you know, to help get them right. I mean, I think the Mets of, you know, from afar just watching them and what they've built, I mean, they've built quite a good pitching program, you know, both in the majors and the minors. And I think it's something that the Phillies for sure have been cognizant of and they have a great pitching program of their own. But I think it's something that Philly's view the Mets as having greatly improved at in the last two to three years.
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C
Doug, does that part of this amaze you, too?
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Well, I think what Amazes me is as we talked about the marketplace, you know, we're confronting, you know, potential work stoppage in a year and we see Tanner Scott get these, you know, monumental contracts as a reliever or maybe even a setup man or a left handed specialist. I am wondering, and maybe this is sort of at will, but the idea of, you know, his performance, you know, picking that moment, his worst moment, and then going into a very rocky season last year, I guess what was it in the marketplace that made it kind of no holds bars that they that someone was gonna play the outbid war because he was seen as still so incredibly valuable?
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Yeah, for me, the way that I see that is it is the stuff, it is always the stuff that sticks, that sticks out to these executives. And we saw that with the Mets even last year when they signed Frankie Montage pretty early into December actually. And that was a guy who has a very uneven track record and who has had some injuries. And obviously he did not fare well with the Mets this past season, but he was able to get a two year guarantee because of his stuff. And I think a lot of these teams, particularly like clubs like the Mets, they look at someone like Devin and I actually think that he is probably the poster child for this kind of category because his era was not very good. It was also very uncharacteristic of his entire career though, up until that point. And if you look at the advanced numbers that are publicly available, they all point to elite stuff remaining the case for Devin Williams. And so I think like when you factor that in and then you say to yourself, okay, like as Matt mentioned, that was a pretty horrible moment for Devin Williams in the playoffs that year against P. Alonso. But the Mets probably had something on that or at they may have. And even if they didn't, I think it says a lot about Devin Williams to kind of put that in his rear view and had the season that he had with the Yankees struggle initially, put that in his rear view and actually finish strong and then say that he wants to come back to New York. I think it all just bodes well for a guy that you probably want on your roster pitching in the back end of games.
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C
I wonder if the Mets actually told him when they were trying to sign him. Hey, don't worry about that one because we, Pete knew it was coming. We'll explain all about it to you when you get here. I want to talk about the Brandon Nimmo trade at some point, but we need to involve Matt Gelb. So let's talk Matt, about what's going on with the Phillies or what's not going on with the Phillies? How would you explain why the Phillies have not made a single significant move yet?
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D
They've been pretty transparent about it. I mean, they are waiting for their two big free agents to sort of circle back, I would say. And that's Kyle Schwaber and JT Real Muto. And, you know, they have been quite transparent, like they want to resign those players and it makes sense for them to want to resign those players given what both of them mean to this franchise in its current state. You know, Kyle Schorber coming off of A career season second and a National League MVP, you know, really, truly the leader inside that clubhouse. J.T. realmuto, you know, certainly in the decline phase of his career offensively, but a very important part of what the Phillies are trying to do with their pitching program and why they've been so good. You just have to ask Zach Wheeler, you know, how he feels about pitching to J.T. realmuto, and he's convinced that it was one of the things that turned him from, from good to great or elite in his years with the Phillies. So I think there's just this immense respect for those guys that the Phillies told him, look, you want your free agency, that's great. Like, go to the market, go see what's out there and when you're ready, come back to us and you know, we'll be right there like we're. Bring us, bring us the offers you got and you know, we'll probably match it or top it, you know, we'll see. The question, I guess, Jason, then is how long do you wait? Right? And so, yeah, I wonder if we're getting to an inflection point there where you get to the winter meetings, there's more face to face meetings. Maybe Dave Dombrowski, you know, we'll have a meeting with representatives for both guys and say, hey, like, you know, you had your five weeks, like you saw what the market could bear. Why don't we start getting into details here, like let's, let's start having substantive negotiations because from as best as I can tell, that really hasn't happened yet. I think that there's still a lot of poking around on the parts of Schwarbers and Real Muto's camps and that makes sense. But I think for the Phillies to accomplish whatever, everything else they want to accomplish this offseason, it kind of starts with these two guys and they've been patient and willing to wait to this point. I wonder if the Winter meetings are sort of, you know, maybe an accelerator.
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C
Look, since Will's here, it's been out there that the Mets are one of the other teams with interest in Kyle Schwaber. And I want to take a step back and think about that for a moment. Suppose that happened. Suppose Kyle Schwaber leaves the Phillies to sign with the Mets. I don't know what you guys think the chances of that really are, but think about how Philadelphians would react. So Will first. How real is that in your mind?
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A
I don't see it happening, frankly. As I put it bluntly, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. Chances are maybe now, tomorrow he ends up up agreeing to a deal with the Mets, of course, after I say this. But no, I. I just feel like if they're going to sort of go that DH route, you got to bring back your own guy. And it's actually funny because the way that Matt talks about the Phillies, it's almost the exact opposite with the Mets where, like, they have shown us through their actions that they are not waiting around on these guys and that like, sure, they are interested in resigning them, but they're not going to be held hostage to their whims and like, whatever it is that they want to do. And they're not going to also just give them exactly what they want. I mean, we saw that even last year with Pete Alonso and the Mets, where he had to settle for a deal that he even referred to as a bridge contract to hopefully something better for his sake this time around. So I think that that part of it is actually pretty fascinating. But as far as Schwarber goes, in some ways you can make the argument that he's. He is a very strong fit, of course, for the New York Mets. Right. Like, they could certainly use that. Anybody can. But certainly the Mets have a hard seeing the Mets be that team to give all that money to a DH type based on their other needs.
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C
Doug, Matt, you guys know Philadelphia well. I just want you to paint a picture of what would happen if the Phillies somehow got outbid by the Mets for this player. Wow, Doug, you want to take a stab at that?
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D
Matt, I'm imagining like a situation where the Phillies didn't end up going signing Pete Alonzo, which would be truly the most hilarious response to that, right. Is that they end up trading, you know, DH types through free agency. But I agree with Will. I mean, I have a hard time seeing short. We're going to the Mets for a couple reasons, but still, all roads lead for the Phillies. At least, you know, to Schwarber and real Muto resigning, you know, what those terms look like. And when it happens, I think, you know, obviously that remains to be seen, but I would still be really surprised if that doesn't end up happening that way.
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B
I see another crack in the Liberty Bell if that does happen. I think they rush Independence hall down there and destroy. Yeah, Schwarber has, and it's a credit to Schwarber. I got, you know, the privilege of covering him in Indiana during, like, the super regionals against Florida State. And wherever he goes, he brings this X factor to a clubhouse. And, you know, the leadership, it's. It's so consistent, it's so impactful. And the clarity that he has about his teammates and what it means to pull in the same direction. It's just who he is. And there's no question Philadelphia A, it's a great match for him because of, you know, the grinder kind of mentality that Philly brings. But, you know, he's. He's a businessman, too. And, you know, he's. He's has opportunities to probably play anywhere if he wants. I know as he's built his family and kids and all these things, you know, he's. He's looking at it, I'm sure, as well, differently, but he could call these shots. And, you know, I guess one of my questions on the back of that is we talked to Dave Nebraska a little while ago on the show about age and sort of the window, the infamous window. And so I'm curious, asking Matt, like, what, you know, what do you see that means to Philadelphia? You lock in Raymuta, they're already on the kind of other side. Ish. Lock in Schwaber, you have Zach Wheeler coming back, Alec Bohm kind of dangling in the wind as the kind of younger side. Bryce Harper, you know, got kind of called out a little bit, but about like, are you on the other side? So what does it look like when you have all these contracts where their. Their years are, their youth is behind them, maybe their productivity is still here. What does that look like in your mind, Matt?
- [21:02]
D
It starts to get dicier. I don't think there's any question about it. You can look at the windows in a lot of different ways, but to me, the one that sticks out is sort of this quote unquote, like, Wheeler window. Right. You know, Wheeler's got two more years left under his. On his extension that he signed, and he's indicated that, you know, those could be the two final years of his career. Obviously he's a bit of an unknown now. You know, he's coming back from a thoracic outlet syndrome. He's progressing well by all accounts. Does that mean he's gonna be ready for opening day? Probably not, but I don't know that he's gonna miss that much time in 2026. So you look at the money you're devoting to him for the next two years and that's a, that's a big chunk of your payroll and he's a big piece for you. And so you say, okay, if we look at the, you know, this current window as being the next two years, not unreasonable, that some of these older, quote unquote, older guys could still be productive, you know, for at least the next two years. You look at Harper and Schwarber and you know, schwarber doesn't turn 33 until March. And he is, interestingly enough, like the kind of pro, you know, the kind of type that could profile, that could age well just given his bat speed. And a lot of people have opined on this. I think the way they look at it, Doug, is that they have, they have chance, they have had chances and will have more chances to infuse younger talent into this roster. And I think Christopher Sanchez has become maybe the most important player in the entire franchise just given the contract he has signed as a very team friendly deal. He was the runner up in the nl. Cy Young had an unbelievable year, Jesus Lizardo joining him in the rotation as another younger lefty. And they've been pretty open about the fact that some of their better prospects, Andrew Painter, Justin Crawford, Aiden Miller are going to have to factor into this thing either at the beginning of 2026 or sometime in 2026 because they do have to get younger at some spots on the field. It's not something that they've really done well integrating younger players in the farm system over the last few years. So it needs to happen, but it's getting dicier. I don't think there's any way around it. We all love our pets, but we.
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- [24:28]
C
Doug, I'm glad that you touched on the Dave Dombrowski, Bryce Harper kerfuffle or whatever it was because our boy Matt Gelb was the guy who asked, asked Dave the question that led to that answer.
- [24:41]
D
Didn't anticipate that answer or the whole thing to come out of it. Yes.
- [24:45]
C
Right. Then you talk to Bryce. So I've told you this a million times, Matt. I don't think any thing comes out of Dave's mouth that he doesn't know is coming out. I don't know exactly how people were going to react to that, but I do think he said it for a reason. So I'm curious what you think, think why you think he said it, what you think he was trying to accomplish and what will be the long term ripple effect of what Dave said about Bryce.
- [25:15]
D
As far as the long term effect, I think it's zero, honestly. I think that, you know, the two have talked. I don't know that like, you know, I think Harper might have been disappointed in how it was presented, but I don't know that he would disagree with, you know, some of the sentiments or the criticism, you know, that Dave Dombrowski had publicly. And I think I've asked Dombrowski a couple different times and he kind of, you know, he has said that he wasn't, you know, it wasn't, he wasn't trying to give him a little kick in the butt. He wasn't trying to do that intentionally. I, I have my doubts about that. I wonder if he was because, you know, I think during the season it was just kind of like a, a weird energy maybe coming from Bryce Harper. It was just sort of, you know, he had the wrist injury in the middle of the year. That certainly was affecting him and he missed some time and there were stretches where he was a solid performer, but for most of the year it was just, I don't know, it didn't. Something felt off. Right. And that's, that's a such a subjective way of, of looking at it because objectively you can say, oh, you know, he had a, he had a decent season, a down season by Harper standards, but still one of the better seasons for a player in the National League. I mean, if you look at OPS and different measurements, like, you know, a solid season, not elite as Dave Dombrowski, he kind of pointed out. So I think they were just looking for a little more engaged Bryce, which I don't know what that means or what that looks like, but I think there were just times where it felt like either, you know, he was frustrated with his swing, he just totally got out of his approach. He swung at the first pitch so much last year and Harper will often say that he swings the first pitch because it's the best pitch he's going to see in the at bat. And I understand that. But the more and more he swung at the first pitch, other teams started picking up on it, were just not throwing him pitches in the zone. I mean, he did not see very many O O pitches in the zone in the second half of the season. He was still swinging at a lot of them. So I think there were some adjustments that need to be made that weren't necessarily made during the season, which is rare because Harper is, he's very good at that. He's very good at knowing, you know, what the opponent is doing to him, knowing when he needs to make an adjustment, when he doesn't need to make an adjustment and just an odd year. So I think that's, I think that was why Dombrowski did what he did.
- [27:24]
B
No, I mean Dave, you know, definitely is the straight shooter. He likes. What do you think about how he builds talent? There's a lot of star power, there's a lot of high powered arms, there's a lot of pitching depth. And I know their bullpen, you know, he took. You go back two years ago, two playoffs ago, and they make all these moves and they get. Duran still didn't get to where they're going. And I'd ask really both of you this about the over correction fear. I'm gonna start with you, Matt, but definitely want to hear your thoughts Will, about. Okay, you have this season. You didn't finish what you wanted to start. What's the concern about overcorrecting yeah, and.
- [28:03]
D
I think Will can speak to this too. Like I think the bullpens for both of these franchises are really interesting litmus test this off season. Like how, you know, we've seen already the Mets investors, you know, three years and 51 million in Devin Williams. But you know, how else do these clubs invest or overhaul their bullpens? Because right now I think the Mets are a little light there. I think Will, you would agree and I think the Phillies are a little light too. They didn't have Jose Alvarado in the postseason last year because of the PED suspension. He is back. They picked up his nine million dollar club option which to me was a no brainer. You know, do they try to trade one of their lefties? I think that's on the table. Either Alvarado, Matt Strom or Tanner Banks. So all three were effective at various points of last season. You know, they have their closer. That's the difference for the Phillies this off season is they're not searching for their closer. They have John Duran, who is their guy, you know, another guy who's younger. He doesn't, he's turns 28 I think in January. So that's another way that they've added some younger talent to this roster. How you get the ball to him. And that was the question in the postseason and, and it did not go well for them at times. I think they have to be creative in the middle. You know, I think they're looking more kind of to throw some more darts on the board that they than they have in the previous years because they just didn't have the depth that they needed. And then they ended up having to go out and sign David Robertson halfway through last year. And he was effective at times, but then not really a guy they trusted in the postseason. I just think they need more there, especially from the right side. Will, like beyond Williams, you know, obviously the Diaz question, like where, you know, where does the Mets bowl pen stand? Because that was a huge issue for them obviously because the rotation wasn't pitching deep in the games. It compounded. What does that look like for them this off season?
- [29:34]
A
Well, now they have a one right handed reliever that they could trust. So that's good, right? That's progress. Aside from that they have Brooks Rayleigh who's a very good lefty and they have AJ Minter who is going to probably be sidelined the first couple of weeks as he recovers from an injury. Beyond that, it's a lot of question marks. They got a lot of work to do. But with that question of over correcting from Doug, I just absolutely love that question as it pertains to the Mets, because for me, I look at it as the combination of two years, years. There's 2024 and then there's 2025. And in 2024, everything broke right for the Mets. It was the first year of Stern's, first year of Carlos Mendoza. Everything they touched seemed to work once, especially once the calendar flipped to say, like, June or so. It did not go that way. Obviously, in 2025, it was the complete opposite, where once the calendar rolled into June, it was lights out for their season. Pretty much the way that I look at it, as far as over correction goes, I feel like with the Mets, you have to say to yourself, like, there were things that we did right in 2024 that we should also include in our plans this year as well. Particularly in my opinion, as it pertains to the pitching staff where, like Stearns's MO so far has been, that he's not really inclined to go long on starting pitchers. I don't think that that should necessarily change just because it became a need. And I don't think you should just change your philosophy because Anita came about, I don't know if you need to, say, pay for Amber or Valdez upwards of seven years and reel him in. I don't. I'm not necessarily sure I agree with that. And I think that they could probably find more value in the trade market and just stay with that approach. But on the flip side, when you look at the Mads in 2025, they did have to make some hard decisions when it comes to this is real versus this is fake. They gave the Runway to their core in 2024 to kind of prove that they could, and they did that and they deserve to be retained for 2025. But then things didn't work out. And I think that when you look at it from that aspect, you say to yourself, we probably should change things up here. It has gotten pretty stale as far as our core group of position players. And lo and behold, they went and made the decision to absolutely do that by trading Brandon Nimmo for Marcus Semi. And so for the Mets, that's really the challenge this off season, is just making sure that they are correcting their mistakes, but not maybe overdoing it to the point where they forget the philosophies that have worked so far for them under Stearns.
- [32:02]
D
Yeah, and I think that's interesting because the Phillies side of it, I mean, they're facing similar stuff is that they've had this great regular season success now for a couple of years. I mean, they keep adding more wins to the regular season total and keep failing in October. So I think it's like, well what, what is real? What isn't like, like Will said and I think generally the Phillies believe that they have a talented roster now. That said, even though I've gone over the fact that, you know, they're kind of waiting on Schwarber and Real Muto and they're, you know, probably going to re sign those guys, that doesn't mean that this roster is going to look exactly like it did a year ago. I do think there will be quite a bit of change, especially in the outfield, possibly at third base. I think it's an interesting balance that both of these teams are trying to strike and they're coming at it from different perspectives, as Will just illustrated. But I do think that there's going to be change on on both rosters. But I feel like it's going to be more change on the Mets side.
- [32:55]
C
And I think what we've seen so far indicates that. Well, I don't want to forget to talk about the Brandon Nimmo trade. That's Brandon Nimmo to Texas for Marcus Simeon. And this is another deal that felt like it was kind of a message from David Stearns, both to Pete Alonso and even Edwin Diaz. You know, we just moved one of the most beloved Mets. So you guys are coming back. It'll be closer to our terms that than your terms. You've touched on this. There was so much going on with that trade. There were so many levels. I wonder now that a little time has gone by, Will, what's your biggest takeaway from that deal?
- [33:35]
A
The biggest takeaway for me is that David Stearns is going to stop at nothing for what he deems is the best course of action for the New York Mets and for the Mets this off season. It was improving the defense sense. And if that meant parting with a pillar of your franchise for like the last 10 years or so, then so be it. That's what it was going to cost. And if it requires the headache of finding a partner for somebody like that because of his salary, because of the no trade clause, so be it. That they happened. I think perfect storm of circumstances lined up with the Texas Rangers who were looking for some suitors for Marcus Semian and his contract. Semian still is a very elite defender at second base. Like he is not. I had some questions on his offensive profile and just the dips that he's had the past couple of seasons. But defensively, I have no questions about him. I think that he shores up the right side of your infield. And for the Mets, that was not really something that was talked about a lot, but I know firsthand that that was definitely a goal of theirs, was to address the right side of their infield and improve that defensively, regardless of what it, whatever they end up doing with Pete Alonso, they wanted to get better at that particular spot on their team because again, they were not a good defensive team. So that was an area where they had to do that. And if you look at Nimmo and you put him in the context of the Mets outfield, right now they don't really have a center fielder. They have Juan Soto in right field, who works hard but is a below average defender by all accounts, statistically. And Nimmo is a good defender, solid, but he has lost a step as, as it pertains to his speed. And Doug, you can speak to this, but you tend to not get faster, you tend to get slower, like, so I feel like this was a hard decision that Stearns had to make. I know that he doesn't take it lightly and I don't want to paint him as some sort of robot here, but I think it was that message of, hey, we're not going to be held hostage here for sentimental purposes. We're going to do what's best for our club. And it does send a message to Alonzo, does send the message to Diaz as well. In addition to obviously now the Devin Williams signing, of course. But back then I viewed it the same way. Jason 100.
- [35:42]
B
You know, what does their outfield look like in your mind is there are kind of more moves on the horizon or what does the Mets like settle in on?
- [35:50]
A
I think that they want to first open things up a little bit for like their young players to, to kind of have a chance. Whether that's. I don't think it's going to be opening day for someone like a Carson Bench who is one of their top prospects. But. But I could see him maybe being a factor midway through the season, something like that. Depending on how he's faring in aaa, they want to at least have that as a possibility. That's something that David Sterns is huge on. We saw that it unfold the past couple of years. So I don't know if they're going to necessarily sign someone to a mega deal that kind of prevents them from doing that. They have Two outfield spots open right the center field. Now they created that huge hole in left field as well without Brandon Nimmo, so that they do have that to play with. I kind of question though whether this team, after just getting rid of a long term contract for a corner outfielder will then go long term again for another corner outfielder. I have a hard time saying, yes, that's 100. What they're going to do? Could they. Sure, there are some really good players out there that are definitely worth those figures. I just don't know if that's in the cards for them. So I kind of see it as maybe some, maybe another trade, perhaps a big trade, who knows? Because the center field market contains a couple of pretty big names and then perhaps maybe some lower end free agents with some upside to kind of fill things out. That would be my guess. But other people, if you survey them, would Cody Bellinger or Kyle Tucker on the Mets. So those probably are possibilities. David Stearns has not ruled them out, nor should anyone else because this is Steve Cohen's Mets and they're going to pay and try to be as good as they can. So I don't rule it out. But if, if it was me thinking what I think will happen for them, I probably would choose. With that combination of keeping things a little bit open and looking at the trade market and then looking at the lower end of free agency and Matt.
- [37:36]
C
What'S left for the Phillies? We talk about outfield uncertainty. It's hard to remember a first place team where no outfield spots were set in the first week of December. Am I right? Is there anywhere in the outfield that we know where they're going to line up opening day?
- [37:53]
D
No, we don't. I, we know that, that Justin Crawford is probably going to be a part of it even, even from the jump on opening day. Now, whether he's in center field or left field, I think remains to be seen. I do think they'll be moving on from Nick Castellanos, whether it's through a trade or release at some point this off season. And that opens up, you know, a really interesting corner outfield spot because they have just not gotten the kind of production from their, their corner spots that they've needed to get Brandon Marsh. I think they still like the idea of Brandon Marsh, but I think they're looking at it differently this off season than before. Whereas, whereas it was, well, hey, maybe he's still an everyday guy. I think now they're, you know, maybe more understanding of the fact that he's a really productive player, but he's probably a platoon guy. Like he should just be playing against right handed starters and I think that's going to lead them to maybe being more proactive in finding a better platoon partner for him through free agency or trade this off season. You know, he put Crawford and Marsh out there and then it's kind of like a shrug. I mean I, I really don't know what else they're looking at for the outfield. I mean they would love to get a right handed bat. There are not a lot of them available. I mean, I think like the top six or seven free agent outfielders this off season are all left handed. Harrison Bader was a guy they acquired last year at the trade deadline and was tremendous for them for two months. I think he's got a, a, a pretty high ask and free agency right now. I don't think that they've ruled out bringing him back, but I think you'd really be buying high there. I mean, you know, he probably had his two best months of his career while he's with the Phillies and he really fit in well. He's still a skilled defender. He's probably not as good of a hitter as the Phillies saw for those two months. He hasn't been an everyday guy for most, most of his career. So, you know, what kind of contract or what kind of investment do you want to make in him, you know, as he gets, you know, into his 30s. So, so just given the outfield market, I don't think you can rule it out just because there's, there's just not a lot, there's not a lot out there, especially in center field. So I think this whole thing would be a lot easier if they felt for sure that Justin Crawford could play a solid major league center field. I don't think they're there yet. I think it depends on who you talk to. There's some people who think he can, some people who think he can grow into it, others who think that he's probably a corner guy if he could play center field and now they're just looking for, to fill the corner spot. That would make this whole thing a lot easier, I think.
- [40:09]
C
All right, one more fun question for both you guys before we let you go. I'd love to have you both predict one off the wall player your team could add between now and spring training. And feel free to go big and bold with this. Nobody will actually remember if you get it wrong. Right. Well, you can go first.
- [40:29]
A
So I'm not sure how to off the wall it is just because he's a name that's, that's out there, and our own Dan Hayes has reported on it as well. But for me, the, the name that I love for the Mets is Byron Buxton. Actually, I feel like at his worst in a couple years from now, if he somehow decreases his elite speed and maybe isn't as good as the defender, he becomes a left fielder for you anyway. But his bat, I mean, he showed it just this past season how special that guy is. And I just feel like the Mets, they, they need to maximize just the amount of resources that they have, whether it's through their pitching development in the minor leagues or even some of their young position players. I feel like just the time is now to, to make some serious moves, and they have the resources to do that. And they had the financial resources as well to absorb a contract, which, by the way, isn't really all that hard to put on your roster anyway for the Mets. But I feel like Buxton, for me, just solves a lot of their issues. They make them so much more athletic if he's on that roster. You say that about any team, but particularly with the Mets, we outlined their outfield issues. So for me, it's Buxton. That's probably my exciting answer. My more probably boring or tame modest answer is someone like Lane Thomas. That's not going to excite too many people in New York. Right? But for me, it's Buxton. I, I just, I love him as a player.
- [41:46]
C
Matt, what do you got? You weren't gonna pick the same guy, were you?
- [41:49]
D
No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go real off the wall here, okay? And don't laugh. I doubt this happens. But how crazy would it be if the Phillies went out and signed Edwin Diaz and paired him with John Duran at the back of their bullpen and pulled him out from the Mets? You know, maybe they weighed out the market and Diaz, you know, doesn't have the kind of suitors maybe that he wants. And the Mets have already, you know, indicated that they've got their guy and they're willing to wait on him. And then the Phillies swoop in and put together, you know, as good of a 1, 2 back of the bullpen punch as there is in baseball. I think it would be unorthodox, but it wouldn't be, you know, that off the wall for Dave Dombrowski to do something like that. So there's my real off the wall prediction.
- [42:34]
B
And Timmy Trumpet could go to Philly.
- [42:37]
D
You got. Yeah, right. You got Timmy Trumpet and then you got the Tarantula. You know, you have two very distinct entrances. I don't know how they would do that. I did not.
- [42:47]
B
Spider jazz.
- [42:49]
C
They'd be quite a show in the last couple innings. You have to give Edwin Diaz's own video, wouldn't you? Video? Well, that's not our department, but somebody can figure it out. So if both those things happen, just remember you heard it here first on Starkville. And if neither of those things happen, it's not our fault. Well, Matt, you guys are the best. Look forward to seeing you both in Orlando. Keep up the amazing work. Thanks boys for stopping by.
- [43:19]
D
Thank you.
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A
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C
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- [45:14]
C
So if it's December, it means our strange but true segment is literally in a deep freeze until there's actual baseball again. But here to fill that void is our man Doug Glanville to take us to a cool little place we like to call the Dugout. That's where Doug goes to tell us his favorite stories about his always entertaining and insightful life and times. So Doug, what do you got for us this week in the Dugout you.
- [45:43]
B
Know, I just thought about the season and, you know, this was a great baseball season. I mean, what do you think? Like, I felt like there were so many interesting stories. It started in Japan. We had, you know, the Dodgers, you know, staving off of what, you know, was they. They knew was like, all right, they're underestimating us a little bit. So they had this, like, weird underdog thing about them. Even though, like, Dave Roberts actually never played into that, he was always like, no, we're good and we have the resources. But I felt like there was a period of time where, if I look at the Dodger story, I thought it summed up, like, why baseball was so exciting this year. You know, they had all the elements of, you know, Mookie Betts reinventing himself, you know, cascading MVPs. Are people getting older, injuries affect all these teams and pitching. And then circling back to just, what is this the new phenomenon that the gift that keeps on giving in Shohei Ohtani. And it's as hard for me to talk about 2025 without sort of mentioning being part of, or at least witnessing in person some of the things that, you know, he was able to do on a baseball field.
- [46:55]
C
You know, what's your best Shohei ohtani memory from 2025, Doug?
- [47:01]
B
It's hard to not go to when they clinched to go to the World Series, Game 4, NLCS, Milwaukee brewers, and everybody was just kind of part of his one act play. We're all props that day. What was different about that is, you know, we're so aware that he keeps doing things you hadn't really seen before. And yet when he does it, you're like, wait a minute, what? You know, you're still kind of stunned a little bit, like, all right, 50, 50, going 6 for 6, hitting, you know, home runs, three home run. You know, you're just like, okay, that's impossible. And then you forget that he's still doing things that are impossible. And I'm not sure what point you accept it. I mean, that would kind of ruin the awe of it, I guess. But that game just sort of summed it up. This is the nlcs, right? These are the best teams in the National League. He took us back to Little League, you know, in like, the best way you can imagine. You know, the kid on the team that's just better than everybody else. He's pitching and he's hitting. He's striking everybody out, and he's hitting the ball off the houses across the street, and that's Kind of what he did, except the NLCS in 2025. And, you know, I still sit there, and I just think, what am I. What am I looking at? And I want to embrace it. And so I look back at the year, and I have to circle that game, but also just circle Shohei Ohtani as a whole, just what he's able to do, and, you know, just eliminate this idea of. Of having a ceiling or, you know, the sky is not the limit. Like, that's what he's brought to this game. And so it's. You know, it's important for me to underscore, like, to actually be there and see it and say, no, this is. This is something I'm actually seeing with my own eyes. This is not on video. It's not on Instagram. This is actually what I witnessed and took place while I was actually doing my job, calling the game, but at the same time, being a fan and just being almost, you know, silence in some moments. I mean, there was a moment where he hit the ball, and it was like. There was, like, a quiet at first because it's like, wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute. Like, I want to cheer, and I want to be out of my mind, but then I'm like, is there, like, an extraterrestrial going on here? Are we. Are we safe as earthlings? You know, you start to wonder, like, this is not. You know, this isn't possible. And, you know, you're waiting for something else, the other shoe to drop. So I just want to circle that game. You know, doing what he could do in one game, hitting three home runs, striking out everybody, not giving up any runs, and then being, you know, by the way, clinching as part of the team that ended up winning the World Series, to go into this, the World Series itself, and. And that just was a life in the day of Shohei Ohtani at work, which is absolutely crazy. Yeah.
- [49:56]
C
The coolest thing about what we do for a living is we get to see stuff like what you're talking about, Doug. We see stuff that people will literally talk about for the rest of their lives. And we were there. We didn't see it on tv. We were there. We got to tell the story in real time, and we have those memories, too. And, you know, he keeps saying about Shohei, kind of what you just touched on, which is he keeps redefining what we think is possible. But being around the Dodgers, this is the sense I get about that guy. The stuff that we think is impossible. He says, why? You know, he Literally does not believe that anything is not possible, at least for him. And he keeps trying to do things that we don't think can be done. That's how it works. It's not just about being the most talented human ever to play baseball. It's that thing that goes on inside people like that where they're honestly saying, what can I do to raise the bar beyond where it has ever been raised? That's Shohei. He does it all the time. He doesn't believe that the impossible is not doable. It's amazing. You know, I have a friend of mine in baseball, we talk about this all the time. As much time as we spend talking about this guy, writing about this guy, showing the highlights, we still don't talk about it enough. We've never seen anything like it it in our lifetime. Tell me there's anything like this in any sport. I'm gonna go with no. Doug, you agree?
- [51:47]
B
Because it's one thing to be dominant and win rings, you know, Tom Brady or something, but it's another thing to just every game you're out there, you know, Brady throws a ball 100 yards, Brady kicks a field goal, Brady intercepts as a middle linebacker. Like, okay, I'll work with that. But like to be multi dimensional. And, and the thing is, like, everybody, you know, as a player, you know, I got drafted in the first round, I made it to the big leagues, I had a decent career. And. And there was all these moments where you're not sure of your capabilities. You know, you're. You're kind of like, okay, I used to be the kid in literally hitting the ball off the house across the street, right? I was the guy that they told stories about. Like, you know, but eventually you're around all kind of dudes that do that too, right, that had those type of careers, right? So can you still be a storyteller or rewriter of history? I don't know. At some point, you kind of know who you are, you reach your limit or whatever that is. You do relate to the idea that you could do something people hadn't seen relative to where you are. It might be Little League at first or high school or college even, but you do have that something sitting on your shoulder saying, well, I don't know, can I keep doing this? Can I keep this guy? There is no end. There's no limit to what he thinks is possible. And, and I under, you know, I remember Scott Roland used to say, well, I didn't set goals, you know, like numerical goals going into a season. Because if I hit that number, then am I done? Am I satisfied? He was always worried about that. So I understand, like, you don't want to have limits because it might limit you. Right? You don't want to set goals because they. They. You might not be thinking big enough. And I just think his sky is just open. There's just no realm. Even though he set goals when he was in high school, and looking at him now, you're just like, oh, I'm going to win mvp and I'm going to give you cyan. I'm going to throw my perfect game. I'm going to get married. I'm at my kid. Like, he listed all this in high school, and yet it's not enough. It's just not enough. I find it just remarkable, you know? And I remember after that game, I was walking from the locker room. I don't know why I was near the visitors or I came out. That's right. I did a. A Sports center hit. And I had to go through this tunnel, and I was walking towards what is behind home plate, and the security guard stopped me and had me pinned up, you know, like, not pinned, but, like, put me where I had to stand up against the wall. And I was like, what's going on? And what it was showing Ohtani and his entourage coming through to go to the press room press conference area. And I remember saying to him, I knew he was head down, just locked in, but I said, congratulations, and he said, thank you, and then kept walking, you know, so it was like he stopped, like, oh, he's hearing it, but yet he's on, you know, just onto what's possible.
- [54:35]
C
And.
- [54:36]
B
And I knew he struggled a lot of that postseason offensively, but not that day. And so when you watch someone that just keeps doing things that have never been done before, doing things that you actually never could imagine, that's a whole nother level. It's one thing to say it hasn't been done before. It's another thing that I had even thought of that that's what he does seemingly every day.
- [54:57]
C
Yeah. No limits. And that's why Doug Landville had to coin a word to describe this guy. Otonic says it all. Hey, Doug, have we ever mentioned that we have a hotline? Oh, yeah, that's right. We do it every week now, because you guys keep calling us at 267-227-9867. And then we pick out the best of those calls, and we answer them right here on this show. It's a cool new part of Starkville. And we're getting so many great calls these days that we cannot stop answering them. So, Doug, let's hear what the people want to know from us this week. Our first call is from Adam. He's in tropical upstate New York. He has a question about a rule in baseball that has been bugging him for pretty much ever. All right, let's hear what's on his mind.
- [56:03]
A
Hey, there. My name's Adam Fine. I'm calling Starkville from Syracuse, New York, because I have a question about a baseball rule that has made no sense to me my entire life, and I think that only Starkville can answer it. Why is it that when an inherited runner scores, it only affects the ERA of the first pitcher? How does it make any sense? It's not fair, it's not equitable, and the solution seems so obvious. You just give half a run to each pitcher, and then you get a very fair and equitable solution. So maybe you can finally tell me about this rule that's been bugging me my entire life about inherited runners. Why does it exist the way that it does? Love the podcast, Starkville. Hope you can help.
- [56:53]
C
All right, so this is actually a fun question worth thinking about, worth talking about. I did ask an official score friend of mine about it, but, Doug, first, I'd love to hear your point of view on this. Is it fair that these runs only get hung on the starting pitcher, despite that little technicality that he was not even on the field when the run scored? What do you think?
- [57:19]
B
It's probably not fair. Yeah, it's. To some degree. I mean, I think they could do more with the inherited runner stat and sort of normalize it more so that you get a sense of it being woven into the backstory of era. I don't think it's stuck like that.
- [57:37]
A
We.
- [57:37]
B
We're aware of it when we talk about, oh, inherited runners, but we don't. You don't have that feeling of, like, batting average or it's. It just hasn't sunk in like that. Maybe if it was more familiarized, where we then know, like, hey, this guy's been given. He gives up 75 of the runs, you know, then you have a little bit more understanding about his era, maybe 1.7, but he's given up 75 of the inherited runners that might. You know, that could mean more than it does today. So that's one aspect I think. It's tough. Like, what if a guy's at third versus a guy being at first when you come in? Is there a difference I don't know if there is, but there's something about like, how close is he to that? And the pitcher who gets taken out of the game, he might be like, I want to stay in. He just doesn't have a choice.
- [58:20]
D
So.
- [58:21]
B
So he can't actually finish what he starts. And especially today in 2025, you know, the specialization is so rich and such a big part of managing a bullpen or a game that the pitchers today don't have really that option where Steve Carlton was going to go nine, you know, or Bob Gibson or whoever. Right. So I think it's worth looking into and thinking about it differently because the game has changed and inherited runners are not, I don't think they're spoken about enough. It's just, it's usually a number and a slash. 17 out of 31. You don't know what that actually means relative to like a giant way to evaluate everyone. And we probably should look at that closer.
- [59:01]
C
Exactly. So I, as I said, I ran this past an official scorer friend of mine, so I'm just going to report what he said. The first thing he said was he's heard this idea in the past. If the runner's on third, then it's three quarters of the run gets credited to the original pitcher and one quarter for the reliever. If the runner's on second, it's half and half and so on. But then he said, I believe it's fine the way it is. The other guy left the runner on base to begin with. If he doesn't want the guy to score, then pitch better or yell at the manager and finish the inning. Doug, as you just said, that's not a thing anymore. You can't talk that manager into leaving you in. So I decided I should follow up. So I asked, why wouldn't it be more fair and more accurate and more revealing if you could find a way to assign the reliever at least partial credit or I guess it should really be partial blame, you know. So I mentioned to him a relief pitcher this year who had a good era, but a lot, a ton of inherited runners to score. And I said, shouldn't there be a stat that reflects that, even if ERA is not that stat? So he did reply to that one, too. And he said that you made this point too, Doug, you do have the stat that shows how many inherited runners scored, but it's a bad stat. It doesn't give us any context. It doesn't show any difference between allowing a runner from third with nobody else to score and allowing a Runner to score from first with two outs. It's the same on that stat. So he said there should be some kind of weighted formula. And he said maybe I should work on that. I agree. Somebody should work on that. Maybe it's somebody listening to Starkville. So if you have an idea, just email us@starkvilleathletic.com or you can call the hotline. We'd love to hear from you. All right, let's hear our second call. This is about induction weekend in Cooperstown. It's a good time to talk about this because we have one of those ERA Committee elections coming up this weekend. I'm actually on that committee, by the way. We're going to be considering Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy. It's a great group. That's just for the eight. I can't say any more about it. So let's hear from our caller whose name is Taylor.
- [61:37]
A
Hey, Jason and Doug. This is Taylor from Long Beach, California with the news of Clayton Kershaw retiring. I've become more and more interested in attending a Hall of Fame induction weekend. So I just wanted to know, since you're a regular in Cooperstown that time of year, if you had any tips, tricks, how to make sure you get a hotel room, how to make sure you get a seat, what to expect when you're there. I would love to hear any thoughts or advice as 22 starts his journey to the Hall.
- [62:08]
C
So thanks, guys. Doug, I think he's asking that question to me because I'm such a Cooperstown regular. So I'll take this. You can feel free to jump in if you want. So what do you need to know, Taylor? You're already thinking about this six years ahead. And so that's the key. Start working on your hotel room or your Airbnb as far in advance as you can. Yeah, they probably won't book it more than a year in advance, but I mean it. The sooner you start looking for a room in Cooperstown, the better off you are. There's so few options to stay in a hotel in Cooperstown. Most of the ones that do exist have three day minimums. There'll be a slight fee you'll pay for staying in in Cooperstown. There are some motels out along the lake. You can look into them. There's also oneonta. It's about 35 minutes away. Depending on where in Oneonta you're staying, you won't have the three night minimum. So that's a good alternative. If you're gone with a Group of friends, family, whoever, Airbnb. That can be the best idea. Just get on it. Six years might be a little early, but get on it. He asked about getting a seat. That's the easy part. You just have to bring folding chairs, get there early, hang out on a hillside in Cooperstown. It's free and it's the best, but I'm sure you've heard us talk about it. The whole weekend is amazing. I always say Cooperstown is the Magic Kingdom, and I mean that. There'll be a few other people hanging out with you on induction weekend. But it's just so great to walk the streets, to pop into the shops, to visit the hall of Fame itself, to hang out by the golf course where the hall of Famers are playing during the day, just to go to the lake. Look at the lake. It's beautiful. And one more thing. Pray that it doesn't rain, because there's nowhere to go if it rains. You can get really wet. One more. Be aware there's no Cooperstown International Airport or anything that you're gonna fly into. So no matter where you're coming from, it's gonna take a while to get there. You need to fly to Albany or Syracuse. Then you rent a car and you'll be all set. You have to go to a lot of trouble just to be in Cooperstown, but once you're there, it's the best. So, Taylor, I'll see you in 2031. Can't wait. Okay, that's gonna do it for this week's show. You should know we're not doing shows regularly in the off season, but you can still send us your questions, trivia questions, baseball questions, stuff from me and doug@starkvilleathletic.com or, as you've noticed, you can call our Starkville Hotline with your fun baseball questions. The number to call is 267-227-9867. Or, Doug, what's your handy little guide to how you remember that number?
- [65:21]
B
Well, it was a bup bop.
- [65:24]
C
Zump.
- [65:25]
B
That's it. Very, very simple.
- [65:27]
C
Just don't mix that up. Don't start with Zump. Okay? 267-227-9867. We love your calls. We've had so much fun answering them. But for now, Doug, thanks for playing. Thanks to Matt Gelb and Will Salmon for visiting us. Thanks to the mayor of Starkville, Ryan Smith, for producing us and putting up with us. And thanks to you all for listening. Doug and I will see you soon.
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