The Roundtable | Blue Jays-Dodgers World Series Preview

Summary

The Windup: The Roundtable | Blue Jays-Dodgers World Series Preview

Podcast: The Windup (The Athletic)
Episode: 187 (The Roundtable)
Date: October 24, 2025
Hosts: Grant Brisbee, Andy McCullough, Sam Miller

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Overview

This episode is a lively, in-depth roundtable preview of the 2025 World Series between the Toronto Blue Jays and Los Angeles Dodgers. Grant Brisbee, Andy McCullough, and Sam Miller tackle the series from every angle: matchups, rosters, key players, historical context, and postseason narratives. Conversation flows from tactical analysis to Hall of Fame debates, with occasional sidetracks into other sports and plenty of humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Series Setup, Scheduling, and Competitive Fairness

• Impact of Schedule Quirks on Team Preparation

  • Discussion opens on how playoff scheduling impacts teams, rest days, and fairness.
  • Sam notes the Blue Jays finished the ALDS early, allowing them to rest, while their earlier opponents (Mariners) had less rest ([02:01]).
  • A debate follows on whether teams should be allowed to “reset” between series—if finishing a series fast should earn extra rest or not.
    • Andy: “If you sweep a team, you should get to reset your rotation. If you have to go seven, you get penalized for it.” ([03:18])
    • Grant: “I agree…you sweep, you get a reward. You take it to seven, you get penalized.” ([04:36])

• General Aesthetic Gripes with the Postseason

  • Grant laments having NLCS games end before the ALCS has started, feeling it disrupts the drama ([05:11]).
  • General consensus: extended postseason breaks are awkward but sometimes unavoidable.

2. Blue Jays vs. Dodgers: On-Field Matchup Analysis

• Surface-Level Expectations: Dodgers Are Favorites

  • Grant summarizes Andy’s off-pod quip, “Dodgers in six. That could have been the podcast” ([08:33]), yet both see deeper nuance.

• Why the Blue Jays Are Dangerous

  • Andy emphasizes the Jays’ resurgent, high-contact offense and their two elite hitters:
    -"George Springer’s having his best season. Vladimir Guerrero made some fixes in his swing...looks like the guy who was promised." ([08:56])

• Blue Jays’ Pitching - A Weakness?

  • Dodgers are more optimistic facing Toronto’s pitching compared to the Phillies’ or Brewers’ elite lefties.
  • Sam: “The Blue Jays do not have any neutralizer for Shohei Ohtani and, to a lesser extent, Freddie Freeman and Max Muncy.” ([11:49])
  • The bullpen’s soft spot: Mason Fluharty (rookie reliever) could face the Dodgers’ stars in key spots—a rare series where the “25th man” might swing outcomes.

• Offensive and Defensive Contrasts

  • Sam draws stylistic differences between past Dodgers’ opponents and the Blue Jays:
    • "The Brewers put pressure on your defense...the Blue Jays put pressure on your pitchers because they’re not going to swing and miss." ([12:02])
  • Blue Jays lack speed; a minor opportunity since Dodgers’ catchers/rotation are vulnerable to running games.

• Dodgers’ Bullpen Under Pressure

  • Alex Vesia (key reliever) is absent due to family emergency, shifting pressure onto Blake Trinen and Emmet Sheehan. Andy notes, “Trinen...has been one of their most important relievers in this era...also objectively terrifying to watch.” ([17:13])

3. The Path to Upsets: How Could Toronto Win?

• Contact Hitting—the Dodgers’ Kryptonite?

  • Grant: “If there is a team that is built to beat the Dodgers, maybe this is the one.” ([19:43])
  • Both Grant and Andy point out the Blue Jays’ knack for spoiling pitches and running up opponent pitch counts—possibly knocking the Dodgers' starters out early.

• Dodgers’ Rotation & Relief Risks

  • Despite bare dominance, Andy cautions that 7-8 inning outings from Dodgers’ stars like Snell and Yamamoto cannot be assumed.
  • Sam uses “David vs. Goliath” and “Death Star” analogies—leaning on the theme that even “invincible” teams can fall due to small vulnerabilities ([23:48]):
    • “The Dodgers have a narrow sliver of the game where they are extremely vulnerable.”

4. Spotlight on George Springer

• Springer’s Postseason Legacy

  • Sam makes a case for Springer as the greatest postseason hitter by “championship win probability added,” even more than legends like Willie Mays ([26:04]).
  • “He is now the most consequential postseason hitter of all time,” says Sam ([27:56]), suggesting this may nudge him into Hall of Fame conversation.

• Hall of Fame & the Astros Scandal

  • Andy asks if Springer’s role in the 2017 Astros should affect his candidacy ([29:41]).
  • Sam: “I personally wouldn’t factor it...I have a high tolerance for shenanigans...I think that probably is now past.” ([29:53])
  • They discuss Carlos Beltran and how public and voter perceptions might fade with time.

5. Blake Snell: The Avatar of Modern Pitching

• Snell’s Hall Case and Style

  • Sam: “If you had to pick...players who will win a Cy Young in the future, I think Blake Snell is the fifth pick and he’s already got two.” ([35:30])
  • The hosts agree Snell is the archetype of the high-strikeout, low-slugging modern pitcher—remarkable stuff, dominance in short bursts, but still only 25 WAR.
  • Grant: “He’s just doing it in a very 2000s kind of way...the avatar for the modern Cy Young winner.” ([36:51])

• Snell’s Changing Reputation

  • “Blake Snell has reached strange new respect kind of territory...he’s starting to get cult favorite status,” Sam notes ([40:38]).
  • Discussion of his erratic command, high walk rate, but brilliance when on. Andy highlights Snell’s work with Kershaw and focus on “90 compete tool” ([43:16]).

6. Coaching Decisions and Postseason Strategy

• Brief aside on the Mariners’ ALCS loss and questionable bullpen management, illustrating how quick decision errors can swing high-stakes games ([45:58] onward).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Andy, on Playoff Philosophy ([03:18]):
  “If you sweep a team, you should get to reset your rotation. If you have to go seven, you get penalized for it.”

• Sam, on Why This Series is Unique ([10:15]):
  “You know, it’s baseball, right? So, you got who will get lucky and we can’t predict that. There’s who will get hot, and we can’t really predict that.”

• Grant, on What Makes the Series Fascinating ([14:58]):
  “The Dodgers led the majors in strikeouts as a pitching staff...And specifically, Blake Snell vs. the Blue Jays is going to be fascinating.”

• Sam, on Series' Plotline ([22:04]):
  “The Dodgers have a narrow sliver of the game when they are extremely vulnerable.”

• Sam, on George Springer’s Postseason Greatness ([27:56]):
  “He is now the most consequential postseason hitter of all time...He’s played 80 postseason games. He’s had 23 homers. He’s like a superstar in a large sample.”

• Andy, when asked to expand on “basketball is a different sport” ([50:41]):
  “No, I think I summed it up. All right.”

• On “David vs. Goliath” media questions ([23:48]):
  Andy: “The Blue Jays have the fifth highest payroll in the sport. They’ve been mocked for trying, but they are, like, an active trier in spending…and third, am I the only person who finished that story? Goliath lost.”

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Important Timestamps

• 01:33 — Episode start, hosts greet each other
• 02:01–05:44 — Discussion about ALCS/ALDS schedule fairness and rest
• 08:33 — “Dodgers in six” debate, Blue Jays’ offensive resurgence
• 10:15–14:58 — Paper strengths, weaknesses, how Blue Jays match up
• 17:13–18:10 — Dodgers bullpen, Vesia absence, Trinen and Sheehan
• 19:43–21:20 — Blue Jays’ contact hitting as a weapon
• 23:48–25:33 — “David vs. Goliath”/“Death Star” analogies
• 26:04–29:12 — Extended Springer discussion, postseason stats, Hall of Fame
• 29:41–32:28 — Astros scandal’s shadow on Springer’s legacy
• 35:30–39:31 — Blake Snell’s career, Cy Youngs, Hall of Fame vibes
• 40:38–43:16 — Snell’s variable public image, pitch characteristics
• 45:58–50:05 — Postseason bullpen management and second-guessing
• 50:41 — Brief deadpan joke: “basketball is a different sport.”

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Tone and Style

• Conversational, dry-witted, rapid-fire references.
• Deeply analytical but with frequent asides and pop culture analogies.
• Hosts playfully needle each other. Grant and Andy in particular drive banter, while Sam drops stat deep-dives and philosophical musings.

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Episode Takeaways

• On paper, the Dodgers are favorites, but the Blue Jays’ contact-heavy lineup, offensive star power, and ability to wear down starters make them a credible threat.
• Both teams have vulnerabilities: Dodgers’ bullpen and Toronto’s lack of lefty pitching.
• Individuals like George Springer and Blake Snell loom large, with legacies and Hall of Fame conversations attached to this series.
• The current era’s playoff structure uniquely shapes narratives, opportunities, and even postseason player legacies.

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This episode is essential for any baseball fan craving a sharp, fun, and richly detailed preview of the 2025 World Series. It’s both serious and irreverent—a perfect primer for understanding the matchups, the narratives, and what to watch for once the games begin.

Transcript

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[Grant Brisby]

This is the Wind Up. Welcome to episode number 187 of the Round Table. I'm Grant Brisby here at the end of calling. Sam Miller. Andy, how you doing?

[Andy]

I'm good.

[Grant Brisby]

Sam Miller, can you top that? Are you enthusiastic about baseball? How are you doing?

[Sam Miller]

I'm eager. I would say the ALCS started a day after the ALDS and that had like a significant impact on the ALCs, right? Because the Blue Jays, they won their division series fairly easily. Got to, you know, line up their rotation. The Mariners had to go to the limit, drain themselves to win it. So by the time the ALCS started like the two teams were not on even footing and, and it didn't end up mattering or basically but you know, like you could tell like that was a storyline going in. The LCS ends and the Dodgers sweep. But the Blue Jays had to, you know, they got pushed to the limit. But then they get three days off to reset, get the rotation order, get everything back to square one. And I'm curious, if you guys have a preference, is it. Is it more fair to let each team reset for each new series? To. To say, hey, look, we want to test these two teams against each other at a high level. Let's have them be their best. Let's give them the extra days so that everybody is equally at their best. Or is it more fair to say, hey, look, if you had to, if you couldn't put away the inferior team as efficiently, that's your problem, and you're going to be, you know, disadvantaged because of it.

[Andy]

In general, my philosophy on this is I think teams should be rewarded with time off for completing their assignments, you know, in expedient fashion. So if you sweep a team, you should get to reset your rotation. If you have to go seven, you get penalized for it. I think that there are, thanks to the expanded playoffs and, you know, various incarnations of the Atlanta Braves, there's now a belief that, you know, rest is bad. So, you know, some teams, not teams with some fans, might sort of push back against that. But, yeah, in general, like, one of the things I, like, don't like about the NBA playoffs is how long it takes because they are just so obsessed with, like, making sure no one's ever tired, I guess. You know, it's like you get. You play a game two days off, play another game. It's just. I don't know. And basketball is a different sport. I guess it's apples and oranges. But I like transmitting as much of the regular season into the postseason as you can. I think that's the fairest way to sort of adjudicate who's the champion. And so the off days, philosophically, I am opposed to in real time. It was nice to spend some time at my apartment before coming to Canada.

[Grant Brisby]

I agree with what Andy says. As far as you sweep, you get a reward. You could take it to seven, you get penalized. I think that's entirely the way it should be. My biggest complaints with the postseason schedule. Well, one complaint in the suggestion, I really. It just bothers me that, you know, the result of two National League games before the American League game. It just bothers me on an aesthetic level. I don't think that affects how they play. But just the fact that the ALCS starts and, you know, the Dodgers are up 2 to nothing just bugs me. And I don't think it affects everything. It's just. I don't like it. As a fan starting to see, all right, who's going to play the Dodgers.

[Sam Miller]

Right.

[Grant Brisby]

You should go into that. Who's going to play in the World Series? That's just a minor complaint. I would also say that this, this extended layoff before the World Series has convinced me that the World Series needs to start on New Year's Day or something. Like, I just love this extended and just. Man, we could talk about Dodgers and Blue Jays and make it the super bowl for baseball nerds, I guess. But in general, I don't know what else there can be done to get teams lined up other than that. NBA style, extra off days between every series and then you start getting into the middle of November and no one wants that.

[Andy]

They already have the super bowl for nerds. It's called WrestleMania.

[Grant Brisby]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what happened with baseball people in wrestling, but we've talked about that at infinitum. Sam, have you gotten into wrestling since.

[Andy]

Last time we talked that since Monday's episode. Have you gotten into wrestling?

[Sam Miller]

Still not into wrestling, still not into hockey. And I sort of have the same reaction when I see my baseball friends reveal themselves to be fans of either one.

[Andy]

Sam, have you ever. Have you ever gotten cheated in a high stakes poker game?

[Sam Miller]

No, I haven't. How did they cheat? What was the rig?

[Andy]

To be honest, I have not really dug in deep because I've been spending most of my time with the World Series. But I did see something that basically like reflective glasses and marked cards. There's also stuff you can do with RTA from or from if. What is it called? If you're playing on a table that can get the hole cards in the way that it would be on television.

[Sam Miller]

Rfid.

[Andy]

RFID is what it is, not rta. RTA is something, is what the Astros were doing. But RFID is you can get that information and it can let you know who's going to win the hand. And so that's why there would be hands where a guy has, you know, seven deuce offsuit and he's all in because he knew, you know, he's been told that he's going to win the hand if it plays out because, you know, there's three sevens on the floor or whatever, that sort of thing.

[Sam Miller]

It does feel like a pretty big advantage.

[Andy]

Yeah, it's like one of those. I was listening to a brief snippet of poker player Matt Berkey describing it where it was just like it was so obvious that the game was cooked, but you still Play it. Because, you know, it's like the only time you can play Fish.

[Sam Miller]

This is the World Series preview and we are talking about players in another sport playing a still different sport.

[Andy]

I think this likes our. I think our audience likes this. Grant doesn't, but that's all right.

[Grant Brisby]

No, you know, I'll take it. I just. All I want to know is I haven't looked into the story at all because I'm a baseball writer and it's World Series time. However, I will. I just want to know, did any of them. Were any of them mechanics as good as Worm? Did any of them catch a hangar?

[Andy]

That's the thing.

[Sam Miller]

Mikey was winning before Worm got there.

[Grant Brisby]

Oh, Mikey.

[Andy]

Okay, okay. It's so much more advanced than that. That like it, you know. Yeah, a lot of millennials and Gen X guys are like, oh, they caught a hanger. And it's like, no, they're using like extre. Like Palantir is involved.

[Grant Brisby]

At the risk of upsetting the listening audience and my co host, maybe switch it just back to the World Series of Baseball.

[Andy]

I know, I know this is a good matchup. This is good. This is good.

[Grant Brisby]

It is. But I will review what Andy said before the podcast on. And I said, what are we talking about? World Series as a joke, as a bit of a bit. And Andy said, what's there to talk about? Dodgers and six. And I really think that could have been the podcast. Tell me why. Because there are parts of me that don't want to think that. And that's because it's Dodgers and five. So explain to me why I should be. I don't know. I don't know. Explain to me.

[Andy]

Well, I mean, look, the. I mean, the Blue Jays have played pretty good baseball this month, right? Like when their offense clicks, it's. It's really, really ferocious. They make a ton of contact. They have two elite hitters. George Springer's having, you know, his best season. Vladimir Guerrero made some fixes in his swing, you know, late in the year and is looks like, you know, the guy who was promised. And so that's going to be a real challenge for the Dodgers to deal with. But in terms of, there's a belief at the very least on the Dodger side that their offense is going to be a lot more effective than it was against the Phillies and the brewers, specifically, because the Blue Jays just do not have elite left handed pitching in the way that the Phillies did in the form of, you know, starters and the brewers did in the form of, you know, everyday Aaron Ashby. So, I mean, look, I think it's going to be good. I think these games are going to be really competitive and, like, it would not shock me in the slightest if the Blue Jays, you know, won. They're a good team. They're playing really well. But I just think pitching wise, they are much shorter. Not much shorter, but shorter enough compared to Philadelphia and Milwaukee and which we talked about how Milwaukee doesn't really have a rotation, but what they did have was a good bullpen. It's going to be fun to watch. Sam, what do you think?

[Sam Miller]

I don't think anybody would deny that on paper. The Dodgers are, you know, like, they're a stronger roster. Like, the teams that face them will say it. They will use that as motivation to, you know, create a narrative where they're the underdog, they lean into it. But, you know, it's baseball, right? So you got who will get lucky. And we can't predict that. There's who will get hot, and we can't really predict that. And then there's just the different stylistic matchups and does one favor the other? You know, styles make fights. Brewers in the Blue Jays have some. They have some surface similarities. Depth of lineup, you know, is a similarity. Doing guards ball offense, making offense with a sort of like a. Like a late 80s style of attack where you put the ball in play, put pressure on the defense, don't strike out. Those are similarities. You know, the pitching staffs, in some ways, there are some similarities as well. And you know, the brewers, they were a really good regular season team and they got, you know, plowed by the Dodgers. And I've been wondering whether there are differences in the Blue Jays that would make them a better matchup than the Brewers. I think the, you know, Andy, you touched on the, the one style problem that is just like, really, you know, it's a big problem for the Blue Jays. They do not have any neutralizer for Shohei Ohtani and to a lesser extent, Freddie Freeman and Max Muncie. Like, one of the most important players in this series is actually probably Mason Fluharty, who is a guy with 0.1 career war and is going to be probably the best hope of, you know, shutting down Shohei Ohtani in the sixth inning and beyond. And that's like, that's justified. I'm not going to be yelling at John Schneider when he brings in Mason Fluharty, but it is rare that you see a World Series that hinges on the team's 24th or 25th best player. And that's Kind of what we have here. And so that's an example of, I think, where the stylistic differences between the Blue Jays and the brewers really doesn't favor the Blue Jays. It is a very different offense. The Blue. You know, the brewers put pressure on your defense. The Blue Jays, I think it's more that they put pressure on your pitchers because they're not going to swing and miss. They're going to be, you know, looking for a pitch from the first pitch of the at bat. They're going to be hard to put away. They're going to quite possibly make you throw, you know, three or more strikes without making a mistake because they're just so good at bat to ball skills. And they also have some more power. So that's an area where, I don't know. I don't know if that favors them. You know, the Dodgers don't have a bad defense, and so that kind of neutralized the Brewers. The Dodgers also don't have bad pitchers, and so maybe that neutralizes the Blue Jays. Like the Dodgers still have pitchers who are going to be able to probably beat their hitters for the most part. So that's a difference. I think the fact that the Blue Jays have no speed at all against the Dodgers could make a difference. You know, Will Smith is not a catcher who has traditionally done a great job of shutting down the running game. And there are some, some real weaknesses in the Dodgers rotation as far as controlling the running game. But the Blue Jays just aren't going to press that. They're. There is sort of slow as a team is. So what else. What. What am I missing? What, what gives the Blue Jays an edge that the brewers didn't have?

[Andy]

I mean, the two guys who make the ball go boom, I think is. That's a, that's a, you know, stars win games. George Springer, like game seven, gets a, you know, sinkers die high and just crushes it. And, you know, Guerrero has been great. I mean, I think that that is the thing that it sounds sort of reductive, but they have two really elite hitters. I think the brewers, despite all the praise we heaped upon, well, they also have William Contreras. William Contreras is not on the same level as Guerrero. And, and, you know, what Springer's done this year. So I think that's. It's like a souped up version of what Milwaukee does, but without. And the stuff that Milwaukee did really well, which was cause chaos, you know, in the field, really run the bases like one. The Dodgers made the plays and Two, they, they never got, they never really ran because they were never on base. You know, like Max Muncie, if you talk to Dodgers people, they suspect he will have quite a big series because he'll be batting sixth or seventh and kind of past the point of where the flu hardies of the world are going to be pitching in the lineup. You know, beyond Ohtani and Freeman, they'll probably stack Freeman third and have some, you know, right cushion with Edmond probably at fifth. And so they suspect Muncie is going to get a fair amount of right handed relief, which bodes well for the Dodgers.

[Grant Brisby]

First off, going back to the Blue Jays have Vladimir Guerrero Jr. Playing at the highest level. The brewers had Christian Yelich not playing at the highest level and that's not fair to Yellich because he's physically compromised. But if you're looking for comparable players who the, who do the Blue Jays have that's comparable to that kind of centerpiece? You know, high paid, you know, he's not a veterans veteran, but he's, he's old enough. So that's a big, big difference. I'm just really fastened by the matchup. It's, it's kind of like the immovable object, irresistible force because the Dodgers led the majors in strikeouts as a pitching staff. And that's without a lot of the pitchers that the Blue Jays are going to see who are wildly effective at missing bats. And Specifically Blake Snell vs. The Blue Jays is going to be fascinating because if he's on, I don't see how anyone can hit him. I don't care if you're fielding nine. Luis's arise like Blake Snell when he's on can, can strike out jonimaggio in, in 1939. So that's the matchup that I'm looking to see. And after that, it's just like every other series. There's going to be times where the Blue Jays are putting it in play and it's going to go to guys and then there's going to be times where they're putting a play and it's going to go between guys and which one are we going to see? That's the series for me.

[Sam Miller]

Yeah, it's a BABIP World Series and I like a BABIP World Series. I'm excited for that. The Blue Jays also, I think partly because of Springer and, and Guerrero, mostly because of Springer and Guerrero. If they can make the Dodgers bullpen get 11 outs, you feel pretty confident that you're going to have some like real big advantages. In those final innings when, you know, Springer and Guerrero come up, whereas with the brewers, they didn't have guys that you're like, oh, well, they're going to, you know, they're going to eat Blake Trinen up. Like, you could be a sort of an average staff, an average bullpen, or a little worse, and still get through the brewers lineup because they don't have a sure thing in there. I think that it's a little bit harder. The Dodgers just don't have a guy that they can target Vlad Guerrero's spot in the lineup and say, we're gonna get him in the seventh, and we're gonna get him in the ninth. They really do need their starters to go long, and, you know, as great as they've been, that's probably the, you know, less likely than average. It's just hard to imagine starters continuing to go in the seventh and eighth. It's not how the modern game usually works.

[Andy]

The Dodgers are also looks like they're gonna be playing this series without Alex Vessia, who was taken off the roster because of a family emergency. You know, I think what he's dealing with supersedes any of the baseball stuff, but, you know, it leaves them without probably their second best reliever, you know, besides Sasaki. So it's going to be a very big series for Emma Sheehan. I think Emma Sheehan is a guy who's going to get thrown in to the fire. And as you know, Dodgers fans are going to be riveted to see Blake Trine and coming in there in the eighth inning, you know, to face to face leverage guys, and look like Trinen has been said this. I feel like, said it all year. Like, he's been one of their most important relievers, you know, in this era. And he is also, if you are a Dodgers fan, abjectly or objectively terrifying to watch. And I guess abjectly terrifying to watch. You know, it's just. It's, you know. So that will not be an enjoyable experience for Dodgers fans, certainly.

[Grant Brisby]

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[Andy]

But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.

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[Grant Brisby]

Remember in the beginning of the season when the Dodgers couldn't lose and the Padres couldn't lose, but it was when the Dodgers started the season just completely on fire and it confirmed our priors. It was like, yeah, they're going to do all year. This is what we were expecting. This is what's going to happen. And then we, we know what actually happened. But it feels like there's a similar tendency right now to just say, well, you know, they're going to get seven or eight out of Blake Snow. You know, they're going to get seven or eight out of Yamamoto. And I don't think that's true. Like, I don't. I think it feels true right now. It really does to me. It's like, yeah, they're not going to be able to touch him. But that's how you beat the Dodgers, is you get Yamamoto's pitch count up and then it's the fifth inning, he's at 90 pitches and he's grinding a little bit harder. That's what the Brew couldn't do. And the Blue Jays, by virtue of making so much contact, spoiling so many two strike pitches. That's what has me thinking, okay, if there is a team that is built to beat the Dodgers, maybe this is the one.

[Andy]

Yeah. And Also, the Phillies, literally in Yamamoto's second to last start, the Phillies got to him, you know, and yeah, you, you could make an argument that the Blue Jays are a better offense than the Phillies. They're at least like both comparably good.

[Sam Miller]

Right?

[Andy]

It's, you know, they're not like indifferent stratospheres. So yeah, I think just expecting 18 outs from your starter every night while that is obviously, obviously, like the Dodgers are hoping for that. Like, you just can't bank on that, especially given the contact related nature of the Blue Jays offense. And I mean, how many Blake Snell outings have you seen where you're like, he's at 80 pitches in the third, you know.

[Sam Miller]

Yes.

[Andy]

And like, but he's given up no runs. Like, and there's a possibility you could see that Tonight.

[Grant Brisby]

When I was previewing the NLCS for the Athletic, I did a thing where here's who is likely to make a difference in each series here, who is an underrated or overlooked player who might make a difference. And Emmett Sheehan was my pick for the Dodgers in the nlcs. I said, this guy, this is the guy that's actually going to make the difference for the Dodgers. He didn't pitch in a single game. I mean, if you're talking about the pure stuff, the pure talent on the Dodgers pitching staff, when you get in the bullpen, you don't have to go too far to get to Emmett Sheehan. So I like your call that he's, he's kind of the guy. He is. If the Dodgers are going to bridge this gap between the starters that they saw in the regular season as opposed to this newfangled super rotation, if the regular season rotation comes back, Emmett Sheehan, we're going to talk about him a lot.

[Sam Miller]

You know, he hasn't had a scoreless outing in relief yet. He hasn't earned the trust. There's a reason that they're still going to Blake Trinen. They were still going to Blake Trinen in the LCS instead of him. And just based on what they're, you know, what they're observing and with the choices they're making, it makes me think, okay, I gotta pump the brakes on my Emmet Sheehan. Love quite a bit. I mean, the two analogies you keep seeing are Goliath and Death Star. And you know, if you, if you read the replies or you read the comments, you'll see people pointing out like, oh, well, great, Goliath got killed by a pebble in the Death Star. You know, like, you know, you Just had to fly a thing through a, you know, two meter exhaust portal or whatever that thing was. And I think that's fitting. Like, that's why this analogy works so well. The Dodgers have a narrow sliver of the game when they are extremely vulnerable. They have like a humongous vulnerability. And it just kind of like it's not resolving, it's not getting better. You know, Kershaw in relief didn't, you know, inspire confidence. Sheehan in relief lost the team's confidence. Trinen still going out there and it's like you're like digging real deep into the peripherals and the pitch data to go. He's not that bad, but, you know, he has been. And then Sasaki, the one time Sasaki sort of like hit a bump, you know, he sort of hit, you know, he skidded all over the place in his. His one kind of weird outing and had to be replaced. So, you know, those are pretty important innings in a game. And, you know, if the Blue Jays can. Can make. If the Blue Jays can just make four save opportunities, make the Dodgers have four save opportunities in the series, then, you know, that's really all they can ask for. They've got a shot.

[Andy]

One of my favorite lines of questioning yesterday at the press conferences and stuff is there was a fellow asking, you know, blue Jays and Dodgers people, you know, like, oh, some people have suggested this is like a David versus Goliath matchup. Do you feel that's accurate? And I had three thoughts. One, the Blue Jays have home field advantage. I guess I don't. I forget where David fought Goliath, but it didn't feel like a home game for David. Two, the Blue Jays have the fifth highest payroll in the sport. They've been mocked for trying, but they are like an active trier in spending. And third, am I the only person who finished that story? Like, no one. No one was like, you know, Dave, a lot of people have compared this to the tortoise and the hare. How good do you feel being the hare? You know, it's like there's a point to that. It's like a fable. Like, it's whatever. I don't know. That was just driving me crazy. He's like, do you feel like Goliath? It's like, I hope not. Goliath lost.

[Sam Miller]

If you really finish the story, it ends up with like the apocalypse. And so that might be what we have to look forward to.

[Grant Brisby]

I wouldn't say might. I would say, yeah, it's clear. Read the signs. I also will say that with the Death Star analogy, it's. It's like hitting womp rats, you know, that's what Luke Skywalker says. I feel like Canadians probably call squirrels womp rats.

[Andy]

So I spent too much time with the Brewers. But the brewers just put this new sort of like, office for their front office, like, high above the stadium in, like, the right field corner. And some of the on field staff call it the Death Star because it's like, oh, it's looming over us, you know, the front office or whatever. We need new canon. We need something besides Star wars and Harry Potter.

[Grant Brisby]

But that should be the eye of Soren, like this high up. Come on, man.

[Andy]

Get on a flight to o'. Hare. Rent a car, drive to American Family Field and tell him yourself.

[Grant Brisby]

I'm not allowed outside the country. What were you about to say, Sam?

[Sam Miller]

Can we talk about George Springer for a little bit?

[Grant Brisby]

His knee is about to fall off.

[Sam Miller]

I don't think it's gonna fall off. I think it's gonna. It's. It's imploding into itself. It's an impact wound. It's. It is like a can of coke that someone, you know, took a sledgehammer.

[Grant Brisby]

To for six and a half games. I was just waiting for it to blow up and have, like, candy fall out of it. And then he hit the series deciding home run.

[Sam Miller]

George Springer is the greatest postseason hitter of all time. So championship win probability added. This is a stat that Baseball Reference keeps. Basically, it assesses a team's likelihood of winning the World Series at any given moment before you're at bat, and then their chances of winning the World Series after the at bat. From the first play of opening day until the last play of the World Series, it has these calculations, and the difference gets credited to the hitter as well as in the inverse to the pitcher. And, you know, a great player, a great player in their career might, like, a Hall of Fame player might have, like, championship win probability added of one. So, like, their entire product as a baseball player, regular season, postseason, etcetera, adds up to a championship. And I think that's about right. You know, you play 15 seasons on average. You know, your team should be expected to win half a championship on average. And if you're getting them to one in 15 seasons, then you've added a lot, like, you're a great player. Right? And I have written about how the, you know, comparing past and present using this metric is all distorted because it used to be that you would make a huge difference in the regular season. Your championship win probability added as like Willie Mays is regular season Willie Mays, you know, greatest player ever. One of the greatest players ever. His championship win probability added in the regular season was two. He was so good that he added two championships to his team's likelihood. And you can't really do that anymore because the regular season doesn't have the same impact. Too many teams make the playoffs. Making the playoffs is still too far away from the World Series. And so now you're talking about like a Mike Trout career will be like, point to like a tenth of Willie Mays or 0.3. That's about as good as you can do. Whereas the postseason now players have careers where they'll bat 500 times in the postseason. You know, like you're a huge part of your career now takes place in October. So this is all to say George Springer took over the all time lead for postseason championship. Championship win probability added with his home run in the alcs. He, he, he is now the most consequential postseason hitter of all time. And I think that given that he is, you know, he's not a Hall of Famer. He doesn't have a Hall of Fame career, but he has had an undeniably hall of Fame postseason career. And for the standards of the day, where so much of a season is defined by the postseason, you know, he's played 80 postseason games. He's had 23 homers. He's like a superstar in a large sample. I'm giving him hall of Fame. Like I think George Springer, assuming he doesn't like choke it all away. I'm thinking hall of Famer. Now. I think that that ALCS home run, I think that being the most consequential postseason hitter of all time to me pushes him. He's 41 war in the regular season, but to me, he's like a iconic player. He's a, he's a legendary, iconic, significant player.

[Grant Brisby]

By the time he's eligible, I will have my hall of Fame vote. And so I'm just putting this out there. My vote depends on what he does this series. I'll just throw down the gauntlet if this series becomes another one, another feather to put in his cap and call macaroni. I mean, this is, this is, this is the one where if he does this, I'm Team Sam. I am. He has added championship wins probability to different teams, and the Blue Jays are now one of them. Let's go. George Springer better than Jim Rice.

[Andy]

I'm going to ask this not to be argumentative because I'm Genuinely curious. Sam, do you think the Astros scandal should be factored into his hall of Fame case?

[Sam Miller]

I personally wouldn't factor into his hall of Fame case. I have an extremely high tolerance for shenanigans, and I'm outside the mainstream on this, so I was a lot less upset about the cheating than the average person was. But will it, in fact, affect him? I think that probably is now passed. Okay.

[Andy]

It's very hard to gauge both public opinion and also ball writer opinion because there's no, you know, like, you can't really like X the Everything site has. There's been a lot of chatter about, you know, sort of the Astros scandal and stuff like that in relation to the adulation that Springer received for that incredible homer the other night. That doesn't feel representative of what people think about him and how people recall him. I think that for those guys, for all of them, and he's probably. Probably the third him most historic. Well, whatever. I don't know. Like, Altuve is a Hall of Famer. Bregman unsure. Correa, probably no. At this point, Springer is kind of in a. In a similar, I guess, spot to Bregman. But I think that being tied to that scandal is like, a major part of their public perception. But maybe no one will care in six or seven years. I don't know. I mean, I don't have a particular opinion on how it should affect voting at all. I'm just kind of curious. I don't know. I think it's like, it's the sort of thing that when you start talking about his postseason success, a quote, unquote, hater could have a very quick rejoinder.

[Sam Miller]

Yeah. By the time Springer gets to the ballot, Beltran will be in the hall of Fame. I think you're right. Like, you know, Altuve is gonna. I don't think it's gonna keep Altuve out at all. Although Springer might get to the ballot first. So I'd be surprised if 12 years from now, when, you know, Springer's sixth year on the ballot or whatever is. I don't think it'll still be a main. But I, you know, I could totally be wrong about that.

[Andy]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Grant Brisby]

I think.

[Andy]

I think with Beltran, while he obviously, you know, based on all the reporting, was pretty intimately involved in the scandal, he was also kind of a Hall of Fame guy when he showed up in Houston. So, you know, he's been punished in a variety of ways in terms of, you know, he lost his job managing the Mets, and he should have been A first ballot guy based on just the resume to begin with. So it's interesting. I mean, maybe we're kind of just getting in the weeds on it, but I just feel like the hard part about talking about Springer is that is always lurking, you know, Like, I do think that that is. And that's just an important part of the historical record.

[Grant Brisby]

As you know, I've been taking to keeping notes on a post it note that that resembles my scrambled brain. And so I just want to bring this up. Is it possible that Springer, this series is going to wear reflective lenses and they're gonna mark cards? Are there gonna be cameras in the card shufflers this series? I forget what we're talking about.

[Andy]

Yeah, man. He is gonna get booed out of the building in Los Angeles, I'll tell you that much.

[Grant Brisby]

Yeah, I bet you that'll hurt his feelings.

[Sam Miller]

I might have a problem. I'm too expansive with hall of Fame conversations. You know, there's too many careers that I want. Like Andy, while you were away, I actually talked about Byron Buxton's hall of Fame case. So you know where I'm at.

[Andy]

Can we do a Byron Buxton's 120 game case before we put him in.

[Sam Miller]

The hall of Fame?

[Andy]

Can we get him to qualify for the batting title?

[Grant Brisby]

Barry Larkin's like, this guy gets hurt too much.

[Andy]

Come on, man.

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[Andy]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

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[Andy]

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[Andy]

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[Sam Miller]

Okay, you watch Blake Snell pitch this postseason and I was having this conversation with someone. If you had to pick, if you had to, like if you were in a draft where you had to draft players who will win a Cy Young in the future, I think Blake Snell is the fifth pick and he's already got two. And if he gets three, then you start getting into really gross conversations about whether he has to make the hall of Fame. But he is adding a little fuel to this by being kind of a postseason God as well. He's now, he's now thrown 70 postseason innings. He has a 2.5 postseason ERA. His teams are 8 and 3 in his starts and you know, again, going to like sort of what the modern standards are. Blake Snell is in some ways the, you know, what teams ask for from their pitchers. You know, hey, can you give me five and a third dominant innings? Yes, Skip, I can. And can you be there in the postseason? And he has been there in the postseason and it this World Series, I guess. I mean, look, I don't, I don't think anybody needs to think about their hall of Fame cases. And I don't think either one's going to make the hall of Fame, probably, despite what I said about Springer. But those are two storylines that I'm watching speculatively in this World Series.

[Grant Brisby]

He and I run down a list of pitchers who have won two or more Cy Youngs with more than five seasons in between awards. Okay, it goes like this. It goes. Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Steve Carlton, Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer, Tom Seaver, Roy Halliday, Tom Glavin, Gaylord Perry, Blake Snell. I mean, that is the company he's keeping. He's just doing it in a very 2000s kind of way. Like, he's like the avatar for the modern Cy Young.

[Sam Miller]

Winner two is obviously not going to get him there. I'm not saying that if he wins, but you watch him pitch and you go, yeah, I mean, he's got a pretty good. He's got a chance at a third one.

[Andy]

I mean, he certainly is like, on a per pitch basis, you know, like, as good as it gets. I would be doubtful he would ever win a Cy Young as a Dodger simply because the Dodgers do not care about that type of stuff. And Snell appears to have reached a point where he basically just, like, wants to win a world. I mean, I don't know, maybe they win the World Series and he'll just be like, all right, now I want to make 30 starts or something like that, you know, like. But clearly, like, everything they did with him this year was targeted towards getting to this point. He threw like 50 innings this year. I simply cannot abide a Hall of Fame that has Blake Snell but doesn't have Johan Santana. If we're. If we're like, lowering the bar. I mean, because, like, what is more impressive, right, like winning a Cy Young, you know, whatever, six years apart, or being, you know, a guy who won two Cy Youngs and was the, you know, in a top three pitcher in baseball for like a five year period. I think it's more impressive to burn out than it is to fade away and then come back and then fade away and come back. And the perception is that you're kind of fiddling the knobs to fade away almost.

[Grant Brisby]

You know, I will say by the end of last season, Snell had a different mindset to where when he got his no hitter, it was also his for, I believe, his first career complete game. And he said, you know what? That. That's almost as important to me as the no hitter. Like, I'm just pissed off that people think I'm just some, you know, five and dive guy. He didn't say those words. I know, but I will say to this guy, after that, no hitter, not after, but the second half, he was a normal starter. And I'm talking like in the 2015 sense, like in 2H20, 24, he was going into the seventh pretty regularly. He was. He was keeping his pitched out. He didn't look that dissimilar from Logan Webb and maybe that he could have done that. Maybe he still can do that if that's what the Dodgers need. I feel like this year that was just. I think you nailed it really early, Andy, where it's. They could have pushed him. Didn't need to. Now they get the rewards. But I do think if they need to push him, he can be a different pitcher.

[Andy]

Perhaps he is the archetype of sort of like, if you jack everything up to like 100 in terms of what teams are trying to build or were trying to build for a certain period of time, because I think they've gone away from this. But the ability to generate chase while also suppressing slug, which is like the ideal for. If you're building a pitcher in a lab, right. Like that's what you would have. Snell is like, you know, kind of the, you know, the apex of that, right. Because that is what he is so good at. He gets whiffs, he gets strikeouts because whiffs lead to strikeouts. But he also, like, doesn't give up power, which is a lot of power. Pitchers do, you know, kind of give up home runs, you know, because they're like challenging guys in the zone or whatever, right. And he just does not. And so I think that in terms of like a historical, historically important pitcher, he is certainly there because he is like the guy who people were trying to create essentially for years and years and years. He's like this. He was the model, you know, and.

[Sam Miller]

Just for everybody who's listening, Blake Snell has 25 war. I am not saying he's going to make the hall of Fame. He is in a very bad position to make the hall of Fame. I recognize that the mood around him has changed in the last six months. Six months ago, you could get lots of retweets by dunking on how unpleasant it was to watch Blake Snell pitch all the time. There is that line about how old buildings all become respective with age. Blake Snell has reached strange new respect kind of territory. I like watching him. I like watching him pitch. He is. Because, like, there are a lot of pitchers who are like him, who are frustrating and kind of boring. Dylan Cease, Logan Gilbert, guys who are good, but you're like, don't want to watch this start. And Blake Snell is the best of them. And he is the one who's most likely to throw a no hitter in the World Series, you know, he's the one who's the most likely to strike out 16 batters in five and five and two thirds. I think that the public appreciation for him is shifting. I think he's starting to get like cult favorite status.

[Andy]

I mean, I think he kind of always had that among people who really appreciate the output. But I think if you've watched him pitch a lot, you know, you would sort of be like, good grief, like this is throw a strike.

[Sam Miller]

I definitely felt that way up until. And I don't know, Grant, if you had this feeling at all. But when he got hot in 2024, I started to want to watch his starts and I thought, oh well, there's just nobody, like literally nobody is better than this when he's on. And I kind of quit being frustrated when he's not on. You're right, then it's bad.

[Grant Brisby]

I think that is the Blake Snell experience to where when he's on he's the best pitcher. But it also goes with how he attacks and why he's not giving up the slug. I don't think his problem is people always say, well, what's the difference between command and control? I don't think Blake Snell has bad control. I think he has maybe average to below average command and he's trying doing nothing. He will rather give up a walk. He can throw where he wants to throw it more than you would think than his walk rate suggests. And when it works is baffling. It is the most uncomfortable at bat you have because you have to decide whether that pitch is a fastball right on the edge or if it's going to hit your back foot right when it doesn't work. It's just, it just looks like some 23 year old prospect from 1994 or who comes up with a big arm and just can't throw strikes.

[Andy]

So I mean, the brewers in game one looked like they were batting with roller skates on. I mean they were just like, they had no idea what to do when Snell's like locked in. You know, when he has that, you know, he had the change up going to just disarm the righties. I mean there was like, he struck out Sal Frelich with like a 3:2 curveball where like it seemed like Frelick like lost the ball in the lights. Like he was, he was just sort of like, well, I have no idea where this thing's going to land, but God knows I'm not swinging. And it just dropped dead center. You Know, for a perfect strike three, and he's just like, yeah, that was nuts. When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So Blake Snell was talking about Kershaw yesterday, and I thought that was very interesting because he was saying that he's talked a lot about just, like, trying to learn from Kershaw. And the thing that comes up over and over again that he has figured out is, like, the idea of competition. Basically, it's like Kershaw, you know, has, like, a 90 compete tool, which sounds very stupid. Everyone's trying to compete. But the thing that Snell was saying is, like, when that guy goes out there and he can have nothing and he can still dominate because, you know, it's like he cares more on every individual pitch than the other guy. He's trying harder almost all the time. And I think that's something that Snell is, like, trying to incorporate into his game, is not being beholden to what is my stuff today, but more thinking about, like, what is the hitter trying to accomplish and how can I counteract that? And I think for someone who has these gifts and also has, you know, it's like they're kind of a hard thing to maintain, right? He has, like, a complex sort of, you know, arsenal. Like, he's not, you know, he's doing a lot of different things. He's kind of. He's pitching a little bit differently than, you know, maybe you remember 20 years ago. I think he's, like, simplified. It almost just, like, how do I disarm this guy? Rather than, like, how do I put together perfect sequence or whatever, and you see the effectiveness predictions.

[Sam Miller]

Sam, I'm in a tough spot here, because once I say. Once I predict something publicly, I have to root for it, and I prefer to root for the Toronto Blue Jays in this World Series. I'm not even going to connect those two thoughts. I'm just going to state them both.

[Grant Brisby]

That's fair.

[Sam Miller]

You can connect them if you want. But I will decline to predict.

[Andy]

I'll tell you what, I'm rooting for whoever wins game one, I'd like them to win the rest of the games. No, I don't care. I think Dodgers in six, but, like, I think it's going to be good. I think it's, you know, I. I thought that the brewers were going to give the Dodgers a little bit more trouble, and they ended up just kind of getting, you know, bull rushed in a way that was kind of. It was just kind of a bummer for Milwaukee, like, good team that Played bad, didn't play great, and just ran into a buzzsaw real quick because I know we gotta go. Were you guys familiar with the managerial stylings of Dan Wilson?

[Sam Miller]

No.

[Andy]

Okay. Because I wasn't. That was. It was like watching a game from 2025, and then all of a sudden, a game from 2013 broke out, and it was really a bummer for Seattle fans. Like, they clearly came up with a plan. It was like, how are we gonna get through this? It's game seven. It's like, all right, let's get everyone in a room. Let's come up with a way. We're gonna have George go two turns through, and then we're gonna have Wu go one turn, and then we're gonna have Munoz to finish it. And then Kirby went a little bit shorter than they thought, and Wu went a little bit shorter than they thought, and they were like, oh, crap. How have we always done this? And brought in the guy who had pitched two innings the night before, including to the guy who gave up or who hit the series deciding bomb.

[Grant Brisby]

It was.

[Andy]

Someone's pointed out that, you know, like, that Andres Munoz, like, hadn't given up a hit in the series, and it was like, yeah, he hadn't pitched. He'd pitched once. So anyway, I don't know. I thought it was just. It was a. It was a. It was like a blast from the past to see that sort of stuff.

[Sam Miller]

It is always fun in the postseason when, I don't know, you kind of feel lack of confidence in all options. And I think everybody was. Yeah, I think everybody was yelling Munoz in the moment. So it's not like this was exposed facto, but how well is the guy gonna do getting eight outs? That's untested, right? Like, eight outs is a lot outs. Like, that's a lot of up downs, right? Like, no one. No one knows that he's gonna dominate for 55 minutes, which is like, what you're asking him to do. That's a long time for a closer who's, you know, you're not asking him.

[Andy]

To get eight outs. You're asking him. You need to get these two right. You need to get through Springer, and you need to get through Vlad. I forget where Vlad was in the order. So, like, it's probably five outs, and then you give a clean inning to, you know, Brash or Spire.

[Sam Miller]

Whatever.

[Andy]

Look, it's like, I understand that the back end sucks, but, like, let's get through the front end before we decide the back end sucks.

[Sam Miller]

There's not a Model for managers using a lesser reliever in the back end, though, like, that doesn't happen.

[Andy]

I mean, Terry Francona was doing that in 2016 all the time with Andrew.

[Grant Brisby]

Extra innings on the road, I think.

[Andy]

I mean, you. You wrote about this, that Miller.

[Sam Miller]

Yeah, yeah, Miller had a defined role that was different than, you know, most relievers have. But he wouldn't have done it without Cody Allen. And he wasn't going to bring in. He never would have brought in, I don't think. Or at least he didn't. He didn't bring in Cody Allen for five outs and then replace him with whoever their, you know, fourth reliever was, you know, Dan Otero or whatever. I'm in the wrong ERA now. But you didn't go to Dan Otero for the last three. Like, that doesn't happen. Managers don't like to do that once your closers in, unless you have. Unless you have an ace on his throw day, you know, you don't pull the closer. Like, very, very, very, very few instances, if you bring in Munoz and you and I and everybody might say, oh, yeah, you bring in Munoz for five outs and then go to Brash. But that's not a model that we've seen demonstrated, and I doubt that the Mariners would have planned it. So I think you bring them in, you're thinking, eight outs, I could be wrong. So, you know, in that case, assuming that, then you do have to, you know, like, that's an uncertainty. Like, eight outs of Munoz is an uncertainty, you know, whether Brian wu's got anything left. You know, he's a better pitcher than those other guys, but did he have anything left? That's an uncertainty. You know, I sort of felt like the problem was that they chased a win in game six when they were down five for sure, used Bizardo and Brash when probably it's just not worth. It's not, you know, a game seven's coming. Like the. You're talking like, 97% chance that a game seven is coming. I think we probably all would have felt a little better about Bizardo there. If he. If he, you know, if he was fresh and he wasn't coming back after two innings, if he hadn't thrown two.

[Andy]

Innings the night before, including facing Springer, it's totally justifiable.

[Grant Brisby]

We're going to wrap this up. I would assume that both of you get a lot of emails from PR firms saying, you know, hey, there's this new cookie with shrimp powder in it, and it helps you work out. And so constantly getting those emails. During this episode, I got an email from Stratamatic to say that they ran the World Series. The results. You want to guess Dodgers and six. Even the dice. Have it, man. Even the dice. Before we go, Andy, I have a note here. I just wanted to. You said this early in the the podcast, and I just wanted to give you a chance to respond. You said that basketball is a different sport. Do you want to elaborate?

[Andy]

No, I think. I think I summed it up. All right.

[Grant Brisby]

We'll be back on Monday. This has been episode number 187. We will have two games in the books. The Dodgers will be hosting games 3, 4, and 5. I know this because I am well aware of which days the World Series is scheduled on. Don't try and test me. I'll see you then.

[Andy]

I was very wrong.

[Grant Brisby]

Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America. I never look so good. You look the same.

[Andy]

But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.

[Commercial Voice]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years. Selfies check, please with Verizon. Get the new iPhone 17 Pro. Designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever. Plus a new iPad and Apple One. No trade in needed. Offer ends November 5th with a new line on Unlimited Ultimate Best 5G Tours. Route Metrics Data, United States, 2020, 25. All rights reserved. Additional terms apply for all offers. See verizon.com for details.

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Grant Brisby]

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