The Roundtable | The Phillies & Yankees are eliminated

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Windup — The Roundtable | The Phillies & Yankees are eliminated

Podcast: The Windup: A show about Baseball
Hosts: Grant Brisbee, Andy McCullough, Sam Miller
Date: October 10, 2025
Episode: 183

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Overview

In this lively episode of "The Windup" Roundtable, Grant Brisbee, Andy McCullough, and Sam Miller break down the elimination of the Philadelphia Phillies and New York Yankees from the postseason. The conversation dives deep into crucial moments that defined both teams’ exits, particularly focusing on the infamous Orion Kirkring play for the Phillies, the psychology of failure under pressure, comparative postmortems of the Phillies and Yankees, managerial decisions, Dodgers’ postseason narratives, and analytical riffs on playoff trends, identities, and fundamentals.

The tone was classic Roundtable—wry, analytic, self-deprecating, and deeply invested in both the mechanics and vibes of baseball’s biggest moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Orion Kirkring Play” and the Human Element in Baseball

• [02:00-06:38]:
  The hosts open by discussing Phillies reliever Orion Kirkring’s critical error—coined “Orion’s Boner”—which became a flashpoint for assessing pressure and failure in baseball.

  • Sam Miller reflects on the psychology:

    “The worst thing that you can do is fail. Interestingly.” (02:21)

    “His internal clock is severely messed up by all the adrenaline and the stakes of the situation… he’s got tunnel vision… it’s just not going to be [calibrated].” (03:50)

  • Andy McCullough highlights empathy:

    “[Fans forget] there’s humans who play this game. I panic ordering dinner at restaurants—human beings panic. And like, it’s just… sad.” (04:33)

  • The group explores how rare such clear “panic moments” are at the major league level due to self-selection, but notes that “these are not generalists; they’re extraordinary at a narrow set of skills." (07:02)

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2. Fundamentals & the “Wheel” Play Discussion

• [09:06-12:22]:
  The classic “Wheel” play during a bunt attempt by the Dodgers is dissected. Sam and Andy debate whether such fundamental plays are truly rare or just underappreciated.

  • Sam: “If you explain the wheel to a child, they’re gonna get it on the first try… I was surprised so many people were freaking out about the wheel—when pitchers still hit, you’d see it all the time.” (09:12, 09:45)

  • They praise the Dodgers’ infield defense and point out Nick Castellanos’s base running miscue.

    “His lead was… it wasn’t the aggressive lead you needed there.” (10:37)

  • Brief tangent about whether the Dodgers truly do or don’t practice the wheel in spring training (spoiler: likely, yes).

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3. Postmortems: Phillies vs Yankees Eliminations

• [12:22-15:33]: The narrative shifts to analyzing the perspectives and futures of the Phillies and Yankees after another postseason disappointment.

  • Andy contrasts the two:

    “You don’t look at [the Yankees] as like, ‘Okay, there needs to be wholesale changes.’ Phillies… It’s hard to keep running into the same brick wall and not, you know, making changes.” (13:00)

  • Phillies’ owner John Middleton and president Dave Dombrowski’s “urgency” for a title is noted.

  • Grant draws an analogy:

    “If you’re going to jump into that [Buffalo Bills] category, why not do it on a ball that’s hit back to the pitcher? It’s almost like the end of … the Phillies dynasty we knew.” (14:51)

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4. Process Evaluation & The Nature of Postseason Failure

• [15:33-19:06]:
  Sam brings up Jason Stark’s stat that the Phillies’ win total has risen seven years in a row (15:46), and the group weighs whether consecutive near-misses are a “failure of process” or just variance.

  • Sam:

    “It came down to a pitcher error, which is one of the hardest things to control for in baseball… I don’t want to say this era… has been marked by incompetence… It’s been a really solid team.” (15:44-17:00)

  • The Yankees, they argue, may “look worse" coming out, despite similar fates.

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5. Managerial Decisions: Dave Roberts & the Dodgers

• [19:33-24:28]:
  The hosts do a mini deep-dive on Dave Roberts’ sometimes-questioned postseason maneuvering, particularly around bullpen deployment and starter usage.

  • Debates about:

    • Game 2: Using Trinen instead of Sasaki.
    • Game 3: Letting Kershaw stay in during a blow-up.
    • Game 4: Managing Sasaki’s workload.

  • Andy on Roberts' approach:

    “They're trying to… build the plane while flying it… It’s not gonna look normal... they don’t have a best three relievers… It’s going to look strange and when it goes sideways, there’s going to be egg on Dave’s face. But… I’m not totally sure what the right choices are." (21:51-24:24)

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6. How Inevitable Are the Dodgers? Ohtani, Pitching Depth, and Future Rounds

• [24:49-32:24]:
  The talk pivots to whether the Dodgers’ apparent vulnerability undermines their status as favorites.

  • Ohtani’s “slump” and future outlook.
  • Importance of lefty pitching against LA’s lineup.
  • On why the Dodgers can look mediocre during stretches:

    “They have just fundamentally decided the regular season does not matter… every decision is made towards how can we be healthy on October 1st and we do not care how ugly it looks at various times during the year.” (31:43)

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7. Team Postseason Identities & Analytical Riffs

• [32:56-34:58]:
  Sam admires how postseason pressure amplifies small regular season distinctions into huge factors—like the Blue Jays’ “never striking out” identity. Shows how team strengths (or quirks) can become postseason difference-makers.

  • Blue Jays’ low strikeout numbers and throwback play celebrated.

  • Grant:

    “When you look at the Blue Jays’ 2025 [stat] page and you go to that strikeout column—there’s two guys who struck out more than 100 times on that roster… you just don’t see that in the modern era. And I freaking love it.” (34:28)

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8. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On failure and compassion:

  “I panic ordering dinner at restaurants—human beings panic. And like, it’s just… sad.” (Andy, 04:33)

• On postmortem framing:

  “The trajectory… it’s hard to point fingers and say [the Phillies are] not doing their job right. They lost a five-game series to a great team and it came down to a pitcher error, which is like one of the hardest things to control for in baseball.” (Sam, 15:44)

• On the Dodgers’ approach:

  “Every decision is made towards how can we be healthy on October 1st and we do not care how ugly it looks…” (Andy, 31:43)

• On the postseason amplifying identity:

  “A team… picks up an identity in the regular season because they’re 5% more of something than other teams… the postseason shows up and that, like, 5% difference becomes, like, 50%.” (Sam, 32:56)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:00] – Start of Phillies/Orion Kirkring discussion
• [09:06] – The “Wheel” play, bunts, and fundamentals
• [12:22] – Phillies and Yankees: postmortem and contrasts
• [15:46] – Phillies’ seven-year win trajectory (Jason Stark stat)
• [19:33] – Debating Dave Roberts’s postseason decisions
• [24:49] – Assessing Dodgers’ championship inevitability
• [32:56] – Blue Jays’ identity and postseason amplification
• [34:28] – Team statistical quirks and nostalgia

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Episode Tone & Final Thoughts

Fans of The Windup will find this episode quintessential: equal parts analytics, banter, in-jokes, and big-picture perspective. The trio manage to dissect, eulogize, and roast with equal affection—using detailed examples, memorable metaphors, and frequent appeals to baseball's deep emotional currents ("grandma's cookies" and "panic leaking out of ears").

The constant shifting between granular analysis and big-picture takeaways means even casual listeners will leave feeling smarter about both what happened and why it resonates.

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For Further Listening

Skip the last two minutes if only interested in game analysis—the rest features meta-commentary about the show’s theme music, inside jokes, and a goofy behind-the-scenes segment.

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Summary prepared by:
Your Friendly Podcast Summarizer

Transcript

[A]

This is the Wind Up.

[B]

Welcome to episode number 183 of the Roundtable. I'm Grant Brisby here with Andy McCull and Sam Miller. Andy, how you doing?

[C]

I'm tired, but I'm fine.

[B]

When did or did do you fly to. Back to Milwaukee.

[C]

So Milwaukee is very near Chicago, so I drove.

[B]

Explain.

[C]

The Wright brothers invented this machine called the automobile and it runs on electricity, which was invented by Nikola Tesla, who did the album.

[B]

Great radio controversy. Great album.

[C]

Yes. And it is run by my. It either runs on electricity or. Or your own capacity for self regard. And so I got here in about seven minutes.

[B]

All right, how long? I thought it was like four hours. Isn't it like four hours?

[C]

No, it's like 80 minutes.

[B]

That's ridiculous. I don't like. The whole rest of the country weirds me out. Sam, how you doing?

[A]

Did you carpool, Andy?

[C]

I did. On the drive from Milwaukee to Chicago. I drove with Sahadev Sharma, one of our excellent Cubs writers. But he. Most of the Cubs people seem to be like. They want to spend the day with their friends and family since there's no actual workouts going on today in Milwaukee. But because I'm all alone. Yeah, I'm here at a Fairfield Inn in Milwaukee.

[B]

Sam, you didn't answer the question. Answer the question. How are you doing?

[A]

Hi, Grant.

[B]

All right. Sam is. He's got like a bat that he's menacing like a. Like a cane. It reminds me of Pete Nice. Prime minister Pete Nice. Right?

[A]

Is that.

[B]

Is that you guys? Get this third base. Anyways, big baseball fan. Pete Nice. If you're. If you're listening, reach out. We would love to have you on. Anyways, let's get into it. We have a lot of baseball to talk about. The only ground rule, only one stipulation. I do not want to talk about Orion Kirkring makes me very uncomfortable. The whole situation. If we were to do a whole 45 minute episode on Orion Kirk Ring's flub. I'm calling it Orion's boner. And I'm thinking about Orion's boner all the time now. And I don't like it. So we can't talk about Orion's boner.

[A]

All right.

[B]

We could talk about. We do the whole episode on it.

[A]

The worst thing that you can do is fail. Interestingly.

[B]

Yes, yes. That's so perfect.

[A]

He could have walked the winning run in. He could have given up a double in the corner. It would have just been a long line of, you know, pitchers giving up runs. I don't know enough about the concept of moral luck to speak eloquently on it. But, like, the idea is that we get judged on things that are out of our control, like, such as opportunities arising that most people never have to face. And if just, you know, like, if he'd given up a double again, that would have been worse, and yet he would have been fine. But instead, he had a ball tapped right back to him. Kind of understandable. I feel sympathy toward him. I went to basketball last night and everybody wanted to talk about, you know, like, why he did that. And I feel like the answer for why he did that's pretty simple. He has fielded nine ground balls in his entire professional career. He's a relief pitcher. How often does it happen? It doesn't happen that often. He is not a trained athlete when it comes to fielding, you know, grounders. Now, I'm not saying this was a hard one. He should have fielded it. But in the moment, he's got tunnel vision from the adrenaline. His internal clock is severely messed up by all the adrenaline and the stakes of the situation. He gets this ball that is hit back to him slower than expected because of the broken bat. So he thinks the ball is going to be hit a little harder. He comes up, you know, comes up on it, boots it. No biggie, plenty of time. But again, you got that internal clock. You rely on your internal clock to be calibrated, right? And in a moment like that, it's just not going to be. And he makes this, like, you know, obviously awful decision to go home and then to throw nowhere near the catcher and throw it probably way too hard to the catcher, and that's how you end up getting a boner named after you.

[C]

I was taken aback, not taken aback, because I was disappointed in some folks in our profession who were reacting to this, like, on Twitter, saying, like, what was he thinking? Like, why did he do that? Why did he do that? Because this was his internal monologue. Odo. Oh, no.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

Oh, God.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

Oh, God. Like, the most annoying people who write about or talk about baseball will tell you, you know, there's humans who play this game. But, like, it's important to remember that sometimes, like, I panic ordering dinner at restaurants, human beings panic. And, like, it. It's just. It honestly, like, it's just an extremely sad thing. It's an extremely sad thing for any player at any stage in their career to fail, as, you know, Sam said, interestingly, and also at just the height of leverage, like, it's, you know, this idea that he had agency. But the idea that like this was the plan, it's like no, dude, the guy freaked out. Doing an extremely hard thing, even if it looks extremely easy, he's playing baseball is extremely hard. And so from a human perspective it was encouraging to see like J.T. realmuto immediately sort of go to him. You know, Nick Castellanos went to him. Rob Thompson stopped kickering as he came in from the dugout and you know, you could. There was, you know, good reporting from like Matt Gel from the Athletic about how players on the team, you know, Kyle Schwarber and others were trying to buck him up after the game. But it's just like it was just sad, you know, just a sad thing to watch.

[B]

I can't believe it doesn't happen more often. I don't mean just in the postseason, but just players. Like you don't see the panic leaking out of a player's ears that often. And I guess that's like just the self selecting bias of getting to the major leagues. If you have panic leaking out of your ears, maybe you stop division three, maybe stop and call it right. And so you have this pool of players that selected because they don't panic. This is baseball. This is the toughest level. But then it's like the Venn diagram crosses with oh, but you' done this thing nine times in your professional career.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

How does this not happen? Like there's got to be. It's not just fielding grounders. How many times has a shortstop had to go back and make a behind the back catch? Right. Or just all these little things in baseball there's a unlimited amount of them. How are we not seeing panic leak out of players ears all the time?

[C]

I mean I think you do, you kind of do see it. It's just usually they are able to compensate for it. Right. Like you see guys, you know, they get, they make mental mistakes or just get sort of, you know, jazzed up. But like it's not decisive. And that's kind of the, the difference. I guess their physical talent overrides, you know, kind of the emotional charge that is, you know, sent them off kilter.

[A]

Yeah, I think that the fact that we don't see more pitchers get yippee or get more just like too self aware of their mechanics in huge moments is. I've always had a hard time explaining why we don't see more pitchers just like choke in the moment hitters. It's a little easier. It's just so reactive and you know, kind of like in a way not that mechanical. So you just sort of do it fielding. You have. You lean on the fact that you've gone through the same motions thousands of times in your life. And that's why it's. That's why pitcher defense. I mean, Grant, I know that you are. You've written before about how there's, like, basically nothing more terrifying in baseball than watching a pitcher throw to a base. And, you know, it's already. There's already challenges. They're not used to throwing with, you know, that arm slot, that grip, not trying to make a ball move. In this case, you know, Kirkering had to go down the mound. That's tough, too. Like, it's. He's off balance because he's coming down a slope, changing kind of plane a little bit when he gets down there. And I would say that it's somewhat surprising we don't see more pitchers panicking, but we do. Like, we. We see it a lot. Like, we saw an entire World Series 1 on pitcher error in 2006. We saw, you know, Tarek Skubal, you know, the surest thing in baseball, you know, just like, three weeks ago, make the, you know, bonehead play of the year. Like, it's. Pitcher defense is very precarious, and it's really frustrating to watch your team lose on pitcher defense because you just want to yell, like, be an athlete. But, like, what these athletes are good at is mastering a very select number of moves. They have practiced particular moves, particular actions, particular cognitive feats, and asking them to do things that are slightly different. They're not that good at it. They're just, generally speaking, like, they're not really generalists.

[C]

And yet, Sam, you weren't impressed by the wheel?

[A]

In a way, I was happy because I. I like to see people so thirsty for fundamentals after the year of fundamentals collapse that they could, like, way overreact to a pretty standard play. Like, if you explain the wheel to a child, they're gonna get it on the first try. You know, like, oh, the shortstop covers third and the third baseman charges, and that's the whole thing. Oh, yeah. Okay. I think that the reason that I was surprised that so many people were freaking out about the wheel is that I remember four years ago, when pitchers still hit, you'd see the wheel all the time.

[B]

All the time.

[A]

All the time. The wheel was how you handled a bunt with a pitcher up. So it's true that they don't practice it a lot because you don't need to.

[B]

It's still just covering third yes, it.

[A]

Is still just covered now. It was not. It was a nice athletic play by Mookie. It was controlled and non panicked by Max Muncie. How about that? That's good.

[B]

Very good play.

[A]

But I would say my own personal take from that play was that the bunt call was not what I would have called, but it was unexceptional. The bunt itself was not where I would have put that bunt, but it was a good bunt. It was not an exceptional bunt. The defense was solid, but not exceptional. The base running by Nick Castellanos was something we could talk about for the rest of our lives.

[C]

Which aspect.

[A]

He's out there not recognizing that the wheel is on or what the wheel is. And so. So he's acting like he's gonna get picked off or something. Like his lead was. So it just wasn't. It wasn't the aggressive lead that you needed to be there. And, I mean, I get that you don't want to get, you know, picked off or, you know, have a. Have the catcher back pick you or anything like that, but the whole point is there is no one anywhere near second base. They've given away second base. So you got to be, like, a lot farther out there and get a lot better jump. So, yeah, I would say that he was the one guy who wasn't prepared for the moment, but he hasn't, you know, he probably hasn't ever dealt with a. A wheel play before.

[C]

I do like that. The Dodgers are like, yeah, we don't practice that in spring training. And I was like, if I know a baseball play, you guys practice it. Like, if I'm. If. If I watch the play and go, oh, wow, that was a good wheel, right? Then you're dead. You've definitely practiced it. I just can't believe that at no point during spring training, they're like, all right, let's run through a wheel. Do you know how long spring training is? It's interminable. There were no wheels spun at Camelback Ranch.

[A]

I could be wrong about this. I'll see if I can get some confirmation. But I think someone, I think told me that Freddie Freeman was saying they did practice it in spring training.

[B]

It would make sense that they practice it in spring training.

[C]

I mean, yeah, that was the thing. That's why I was shocked because Max Muncie said, you know, we didn't. Or Dave Roberts. I don't know. I mean, you know, maybe I'm wrong.

[A]

Maybe it seems like he's saying that.

[C]

You might not be at the infield practices. Doctober might be elsewhere, you know, like watching pitchers or something like that during that, when they're doing wheels.

[B]

Just one full month of hitting grounders, third base, throw it to first, ditch the ball, grounded a shortstop, throw it first. Right. One month of that and you'd probably be pretty good.

[C]

So, Sam, are you going to apologize to Grant and I because we were right about the Phillies, or you just going to let it ride?

[B]

Wait, I picked him to win the World Series? I think.

[A]

I think so. I think that's right. But the narrative is definitely beefing up.

[C]

Yeah, I wouldn't even say that I was right. I think that I just was surprised that the narrative hadn't, you know, thickened and now it's, It's. It's thick.

[A]

Yeah, it is definitely thick. It's hard to say. It wasn't. It didn't seem like a very well played series. Of course, they didn't win a series this year. You got to. You, you've kind of got to win one. If you win one, I'm going to, I'll defend you. If you win a series, I will defend that season. If you don't win any, then you're, you know, you, you flailed out.

[C]

And that's kind of the difference between the Yankees and the Phillies. Right. Who are teams with similar payrolls, you know, similar expectations, fan bases, you know, kind of for different reasons, expressing similar disappointment. I think we can all look at the. I don't feel like the Yankees after this season. They definitely, you know, they could do for some improvements at like, shortstop. They're going to need to figure out if they can retain Cody Bellinger or replace him. Both of which will not be the most straightforward thing. But they're like, they're a good team, you know, like, they need to get better fundamentally. And like, that's going to probably be an eternal question there. But you don't look at that as like, okay, there needs to be wholesale changes. And I'm not arguing that the Phillies need to have wholesale changes, but it's hard to keep running into the same brick wall and not, you know, making changes. Especially when you have, you know, an owner in John Middleton who's, you know, 70 years old and very much wants to see a World Series, you know, in his lifetime. Dave Dombrowski is, you know, almost 70 years old and would also like one more World Series. They have a variety of free agent decisions. You know, Kyle Schwaber, J.T. realmuto and Ranger Suarez are all up. They have to move on from Nick Castellanos in some form or fashion. I do enjoy, you know, my brethren in, you know, the Delaware Valley and elsewhere who, who see Harrison Bader get, like, three hits and they're like, yo, they need to. Bader is the only dude who showed up this series, man. They, if they don't bring back Bader, like, what are they doing? You know, like. And so I, I do appreciate how some things go exactly the way you'd think they would. But, yeah, like, I, I, I don't know. I feel differently about those teams, which, based on the outcomes, you know, you probably shouldn't. They both crashed out in the, in the ds, but I just, I, I don't know. I feel differently.

[B]

Point of record, I said that the Phillies get one more chance before they become Buffalo Bills is. This is their chance. And if you're going to jump into that, into that category, why not do it on a ball that's hit back to the pitcher? And it, it feels like that's like the perfect. It's almost like the end of the Phillies, that, that first Phillies, not the first, but the, the Phillies dynasty that we knew with Ryan Howard, Jimmy Rollins, oh, my gosh, ends with Ryan Howard just like on the ground. And it, it's such a, one of the most powerful baseball moments, saddest moments I've seen. And so this isn't that, but it's like, it feels like a very clear delineation. Like, it's like before and after. And like, now you have to start thinking about the Phillies a little bit more skeptically.

[A]

I did not realize this. Jason Stark wrote this in his column today, but the Phillies have won more regular season games than the year before seven years in a row.

[B]

Wait, say I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Say that one more time.

[A]

Their win total has increased seven years in a row. I mean, you'd have to say that, like, the trajectory, like, that's a pretty convincing trajectory. A lot of times you can just sort of sense when a team has lost its momentum. And you wouldn't have said it about the Phillies a week ago, right? And they just played probably the best team in baseball, and they had a, you know, they had a hundred more points of OPS than the Dodgers did. They outplayed him in a sense. They outscored him. They had a tremendously unsuccessful week, and they got the stench of, the stench of underperformer on him. Like, no doubt about it. This is a really disappointing year. And, you know, like, for the reasons that you point out, like the, it's very possible that the core starts breaking up and the momentum goes quick. But I don't know, like from a process standpoint, I hate to say, like from a process, but from a process standpoint, it's hard to point fingers and say not doing their job right. They lost a five game series to a great team and they sort of outplayed them and it came down to a pitcher error, which is like one of the hardest things to control for in baseball. So I don't know, I don't want to, I don't want to say that what the Phillies are doing is working. I, I don't want to say. I also don't though want to say that like, this era of Phillies baseball has been marked by incompetence or anything like that. It's been like a really solid team. It remains a really solid team. If Zach Wheeler, I mean, I want to say if Zach Wheeler had been healthy, but I don't, I don't actually know what his outlook is for next year. So I don't want to assume that he's coming back or anything like that. But if Zach Wheeler had been healthy, it's a different season series, you know, it was close. The Yankees, similarly, you can kind of, you can kind of like put all the data points in the middle and look at them from either direction. They, you could say, oh, they didn't even win the division, but they did lead the league in wins. They didn't go far in the playoffs, but they did beat the Red Sox in a series. They haven't won a World Series with Boone, but they did go last year. So there are ways that you could look at them and say again, like, well, you know, only one team wins the World Series every year, and if the standard is win the World Series or you're a failure, then you're going to probably, you know, be a little bit too pessimistic toward everyone. It sort of just comes down to what you're prone to feel about the team and which sort of, like which direction you want them to go. The Yankees, yeah, they were really strong this year. I have kind of a visceral reaction to Aaron Boon's style that makes me think like, like, because he just doesn't look cool, you know, like it sort of always feels like things are falling apart because of how upset Aaron Boon is. So maybe that creates the, the impression in my mind that the Yankees are always falling apart. But objectively speaking, you know, pretty good year that ended with, you know, disappointing final. I Mean, they also really got. They got blitzed by the Blue Jays. The Phillies almost kind of beat the Padres. Not the Padres. The Phillies almost kind of beat the Dodgers, even though it was a 31 series. The Yankees almost lost four nothing in a best of three series. So probably they look worse. Even though the Phillies lost on a. On a literal boner Series ending boner. I think the Yankees come out of the series looking worse.

[C]

It's almost like with the Yankees, in some ways, you just are like, well, Max Freed stunk in game one. You know, like, what do you. There's not much to be done about that. That's like a. That's a play better situation. And with the Phillies, too, it's like, hey, their top three did not deliver, you know, outside of one inning, you know, against Clayton Kershaw in game three. Right. Like, and that's a. Also a, you know, a play better situation.

[A]

It always is a play better situation. The only team that you could really say, oh, management messed this up is Dave Roberts in the. In the nlds. And they won. Like, Dave, when did I. I'm not saying that Dave Roberts didn't manage perfectly, but the whole way I was going, what is this dude doing?

[C]

Wait, okay, let's go through this.

[B]

The Blake Trinen instead of rogue.

[A]

Sorry, Bringing in Blake Trinen in game two instead of Sasaki, leaving Sasaki, like, unused until the winning run was already in scoring position. Okay, game two. All right. Game three, letting Kershaw go back out for inning two, which was already like, they're down two. I'm not. Again, I'm not saying these were wrong, but at the time you're going, wow, they're down by two and they're like. It was unclear whether Kershaw was the punt option at that point. I don't think he was. I think I would have gone.

[C]

He definitively was the punt.

[A]

Okay, so he was the punt option.

[C]

Yeah, because they didn't have Tanner Scott.

[A]

They didn't have Tanner Scott, but they had. They brought more than five pitchers.

[C]

Correct. But they had Vezia Sheehan and Sasaki and they had burned everyone else.

[A]

Right. So they're punting. They're punting with Persia.

[C]

Yeah, so he was. He's the punt. Yeah.

[A]

So then letting the game get out of hand, you know, a two. A two run game get out of hand. I don't think that they were wrong to do that. You know, if you win two games on the road, the privilege you get from that is you don't have to play with, like, Hair on fire, urgency in game three. But, like, you know, like, people have thoughts like, it is not a universally appreciated decision. And then Game four with his bullpen the way it is pulling glass now after 80 pitches.

[B]

Point of order, though, I think he had cramps.

[C]

Yeah, he said glass now. I had cramps.

[A]

All right, fair enough. But then also, I would. I would just say that I personally also think that it's questionable using Sasaki for three innings there. And basically, like, you don't know what you're getting from him in game five at that point, and the answer is probably nothing. And so I don't know what the right choices are here, but starting with game two, I started thinking, you know, Roberts is kind of just like. I don't know that he knows what to do either. Like, his moves started to look weird.

[C]

I wouldn't describe it as he doesn't know what to do per se, but. Because that suggests they're not, like, planning. But I do think. Think that there is an element of they're trying to, you know, like, you know, build the plane while flying it or whatever. Right. Because their whole thing with Sasaki is that he's not a reliever. He's never been a reliever. So getting him, you know, two out of three days, like, while he probably can do it, if you can avoid it when you're up three runs against a team that has shown absolutely no life, you know, all evening and the ballpark is like, actively booing them. And, you know, you've got Blake Trinen who has, you know, look, Trinen has not been good this season, but he is also Blake Trine, and he's pitched a variety of important, you know, postseason games and come through for the Dodgers and in recent years. And so you're trying to basically figure out what you've got in Trine, and he does not have it. When it was clear he did not have it, he went to Vezia, you know, to go get the lefties, and then brought in Sasaki to finish it. Like, clearly, that is not how they drew it up. But I understand the logic of you don't want to go to Sasaki, who is not a reliever. Right. I think that in game three, obviously, you know, Kershaw did not have good stuff. The results were, you know, pretty brutal in the first inning. Right? Like, he was really charmed to get out of the first inning, and I was shocked, you know, seeing him go back out for the eighth. But when it became clear that Tanner Scott was not available, was not in the Ballpark and it will be taken off the roster the next day. They just, you know, they were in punt formation and that's how it goes. And so I think like, he's gonna make a variety of decisions, specifically in the late game that reflect that they have a non traditional pitching staff. You know, it's like in the same way last year you would watch games and just be like, oh my God, like they're not trying to win tonight. Landon Knack is still out there. You're down three runs. Like, you know, and they just make. And so the decision to, you know, not use any of their, their three whoever, you know, the Sheehan, Vezia and Sasaki. All three guys are available for, for game four. You know, letting Sasaki go three innings, that's dangerous. Yeah. Because if you lose that game, then you probably don't have him. I think their calculus would be okay. Well, for game five, we have Ohtani and Snell, so we probably don't need relievers. It's not gonna look normal. Like they're not gonna do things that you're like, oh, this is, you know, a guy pitches six innings and then the best three relievers come in. They don't have a best three relievers. You know, it's going to look strange and when it goes sideways, you know, there's going to be egg on Dave's face. But I don't. I'm not totally sure what the right choices are in all these situations.

[A]

Yeah, okay. I concede that round to Andy. That was better than me.

[C]

No one is better at defending Doctober at this time of year than me. No one has more practice, I'll tell you that much.

[B]

Yeah, we can't have a podcast if you're willing to concede points. Get Mads, Sam. Get mad. He insulted your family. Offline.

[A]

We went into this postseason thinking, well, if the, you know, if the Dodgers lock in, they're still the only team that matters. They walked all over the Reds, they jumped ahead 2 nothing on the Phillies on the road. And then, you know, the la. The last two games showed a little bit more vulnerability, a little bit more weakness. And like I said, even though they beat, I would say probably the light consensus second best team in baseball, I don't know for sure that like they came out of it looking stronger than they did going in. Do you guys have a sense that like the Dodgers are, I mean, obviously like they're around closer and they just dispatch the Phillies, so like, mathematically they're much closer to a championship. But do you have a sense that they are more or less inevitable now than you did like a week ago.

[B]

I need more info on Ohtani. I need to know, is this, well, you know, hitters have blips. No, come on, let me explain this better so I don't have Andy chuckling at me. Is Ohtani in a slump slump or is he just in a numbers game? You know what I mean? Are his mechanics screwed up? Is he not feeling. I don't think it's feeling the moment. I don't think it's anything like that. Or is it just he guessed rock when the paper threw scissors and it happened 15 times in a row or something close to that? Like, what is that? And once I have the answer to that, I'll know if the Dodgers are impressing me even more. As of right now, they did not look like a very strong team like in that Philly series. And the fact that we can call the Phillies, you know, maybe the consensus, like consensus second best team without Zach Wheeler, they're going to, you know, maybe run into some teams that have their Zach Wheeler. Not that there are a lot of them floating around, but I'm not more impressed with the Dodgers is I guess what I'm going at after.

[C]

Who is the Zach Wheeler coming out of Cubs Brewers.

[B]

Matthew Boyd, baby.

[C]

Yeah, exact. Yeah, there was a. I may have texted you guys this, but I, I, I was watching Emmet Sheehan and at one point I was like, I think he's better than every non Freddy Peralta pitcher in this Cubs brewers series. That's. No, that's not true. But he's like really good and he's like a seventh inning guy.

[B]

Jacob Misarowski went, went to the All Star Game, I think.

[A]

No, Grandy, I think it is true. I think Emmett Sheehan is genuinely the, if you threw him into the Cubs brewers, he's the third best pitcher.

[C]

Well, yeah, no, Boyd was good. Boyd and Imanaga are good. But like, I think Sheehan is a, is, if you gave him a full season, probably is better than Quinn Priester. You know, I think if you are the Dodgers, you have to feel really good because you didn't hit particularly well and you got past, you know, the team that kind of poses the biggest threat, if only because like Christopher Sanchez and Jesus Lozardo and Ranger Suarez pitched so well. So well, you know, and so some of the Ohtani, you know, struggles. It's like, yeah, he's not like in rhythm. Like he's, he's not taking great at bats. He's also, you know, just like Christopher Sanchez was excellent. I mean, John Duran, how has a human ever gotten a hit off him? I mean, Mookie Betts, his walk with the bases loaded was, like, mesmerizing, you know, like, because he's just. He somehow was able to. To lay off, you know, like a hundred. Like, that's not like soaring out of the zone, like, relatively close. When that guy also throws something that's like 97, that drops directly off that. Like, that is just extremely challenging. There were some at bats. Like, you know, Duran's at bat against Freddie Freeman. Like, it's rare to see Freddie Freeman just look sort of humbled and like, Duran just carved him up. There was just nothing to be done when he was spotting his curveball for strikes. And like, I. I think it's just, if you are the Dodgers, you probably feel like you got past the team that has the best pitching. You silenced probably the best top three you're going to see in another team. And you also get a couple days to reset your rotation. And if you advance to the, to the, you know, the World Series, you'll have home field. Unless you're playing Toronto. They would have home field over Seattle and Detroit, which doesn't mean a ton, but it's not nothing.

[A]

I would say you did also sort of signal before that the. If. If you had a choice, you'd send good lefties to pitch against the Dodgers. Like, that's. That would be the plan. And the Phillies top three starters are all lefties. Those accounted for, you know, basically half the innings the Dodgers had to. To face. And Christopher Sanchez is, like, otherworldly. That was a third of the innings they faced. So those are fine reasons to look a little bit offensively tepid. And they're not going to have to face a staff that has that kind of lefty strength. I mean, the Cubs, if they face the Cubs, the top two starters are both lefty. So maybe you'd say that. But there's not another Christopher Sanchez looming until you get to Tarik Skubal. And there's not another staff that's as overwhelmingly lefty. You guys both get to see Shohei Ohtani more than I do because I'm blacked out of Dodgers games. But is he known to be a exceptionally streaky hitter?

[C]

I wouldn't say that. I would say that the way he makes outs is strikeouts. And so when you're facing exceptional pitching from the left side, you're striking out. He goes through stretches, I would say. But not. I wouldn't describe him as like an exceptionally streaky hitter in part because he just randomly hits a solo homer, you know, once every three days, even when he's going bad.

[B]

The fact that I had to think about it makes me think he's not exceptionally streaky because the, the guys, you know and the guys you've watched, it's like, oh, here we go. You know, And I don't, I don't get that feeling with him other than every time he comes up, it's, here we go.

[C]

So yeah, he's like a three true outcomes guy, like home run strikeout or he hits a ground ball single through the right side. Like, it's just weird. Like the way where like he has like two types of hits. Just towering home one and pulling a ground ball, you know, in between the four hole.

[A]

I don't know if he was this year, but he used to be a fourth true outcome. Yeah, he still is. He's. He is a fourth through outcome, catcher's interference.

[B]

How many this year?

[A]

Two this year. 10 in the last three years. Yeah, he does this, he has this protective swing that he'll, he'll, he'll throw out there on two strikes and catch, catch the glove. And it's like when you see it, you're like, that should be against the law. It's like a really suspicious looking swing. But it's just, he's super, super late, super protective and like long arms and he just kind of like hucks the bat out into the, into the space.

[C]

But yeah, I would feel if I was, if I was the Dodgers. You feel good to advance and you feel like you can reset your pitching. They'll have Ohtani, Snell, Yamamoto, Glasnow lined up for games 1, 2, 3, 4.

[B]

Sasaki will get the rest he needs.

[C]

Good luck to anyone trying to get past that.

[B]

Why were they so bad at stretches this year then? Why can't that happen? I demand to know why that can't happen again.

[C]

Blake Snell threw like 30 innings. Ohtani didn't start pitching until June.

[B]

He pitches.

[C]

He does. Glasnow made 19 starts. I mean, because they have just fundamentally decided the regular season does not matter and they won't come out and say it explicitly, but they like make. Every decision is made towards how can we be healthy on October 1st and we do not care how ugly it looks at various times during the years. As long as we are set up to get into the tournament, we on October 1st. And this year, if they win, it all will be even more of a proof of concept, because they probably set it up as bad as they could set it up, given their talent level and that they had to play a wild card and then go on the road to play the team who probably was the second best in the sport, and they still blitzed them in four games.

[B]

Well, I don't know. I have a lot of thoughts. I. I just. Why? Why is that funny?

[C]

Well, because you just. You're clearly trying to figure out something to say, and you're like, I have.

[A]

A lot of thoughts.

[B]

Yeah, it looks like I was busted.

[C]

Fellas, anytime you.

[B]

I've got so many ideas, it's hard to pick just one.

[C]

I think about this stuff all the time.

[B]

I've had a joke for, like, 20 minutes, and honestly, I was, like, trying to figure out if this was the time for it, and I don't think it was. So then I froze. So I don't have a lot of thoughts, fellas.

[A]

One thing I love about the postseason, this doesn't always happen. I'm not sure it's happening with the brewers anymore, unfortunately, but maybe it will. But I love it when a team has, like, picks up an identity in the regular season because they're, like, 5% more of something than other teams, like, just a little bit. But, like, in a long season, we're looking for things to talk about, and then the postseason shows up, and that, like, 5% difference becomes, like, 50%, and it's why they win the games. And I'm just really enjoying the Blue Jays never striking out. It's a. It's a fun little throwback. Every team has played four games. If I'm not mistaken, every team has played four games in this postseason round, whether they are out of it or still in it. They've all played four games. Strikeouts by team. 41, 38, 38, 38, 38, 37. And then the brewers have 30. And then the Blue Jays 24.

[B]

24.

[A]

That's the Brewers. So the brewers have six more than them, but in fewer plate appearances because they weren't batting around every other inning against the, like, the lowest strikeout. The Cubs are, like, the lowest strikeout playoff staff, so that's not as impressive. Whereas the Blue Jays were doing it against, like, a top three, top four strikeout staff, 24 strikeouts. They. They went into the. Well, no, I'm going to mangle this fun fact, so I'm not even going to try it. But, like, I think everybody agrees teams that put balls in play, they remind us of, you know, grandma's cookies. Like, it's a nice throwback.

[B]

Maybe you guys are similar, but part of my baseball experience is going on baseball reference pages, right? And just you stare at it and it's like you can sort of see almost like, gosh, this is gonna sound really over the top. But it's like a composer who can read a score and kind of see the music, right? And I'm not saying I'm as cool as a composer who could do that. But when you look at the Blue Jays 2025 page and you go to that strikeout column, there's two guys, two guys who struck out more than 100 times on that roster. And that like you just don't see that in the modern era. And I freaking love it.

[A]

One of my favorite things that I wrote about this year that no one cared about was Anthony Santander's two strike foul rate. Did not pick up any new paid subscribers from that post. But Anthony Santander is like one of the two or three guys on the team that like has a strikeout profile. Like he's a, he's a power hitter who strikes out. Like he doesn't have great contact rate at all. But then when he gets to two strikes, he is by far the best two strike Fowler in baseball. He has been for a few years. So it's not just a fluke. Even Anthony Santander sub, you know, sub replacement this year, not really doing it. And yet like his at bats even they have a sort of a beauty and an elegance to them. He gets behind two strikes and. Ah, dang it. I forget what it was, but it actually happened. Like there was a big moment in this series against the Yankees where Anthony Sandendar Santander fouled off a couple two strike pitches, maybe more. Maybe it was like 11 and then did something. I was like the Leonardo DiCaprio meme pointing at it.

[B]

Like I said, I know that that's a pretty good. That's a pretty good guess. That really. 100 spot on. I have a. Andy, do you have something to say? I. I have a way to wrap this. This baby.

[C]

Go for it.

[B]

It's more like housekeeping and I just wanted to. To get your ideas. Did you guys like the new intro? The new intro to the, to the show?

[C]

What are you talking about?

[B]

So do you remember last week when you kind of walked us through? I can make your hands clap in that song.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Producer Brian, can you give a little snippet of that? So I forgot that you guys can't hear the stream yard the new intro. So. So Brian just hit It.

[C]

This is good.

[B]

You're listening to the Round table on the wind up, which is, in turn, a part of the athletic podcast network. It makes.

[C]

Is this our new intro?

[B]

It is.

[C]

That's great.

[B]

It's not. It's not. But, I mean, why not?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I had to make. I heard that. I heard that. And I was like, I've got to save that.

[C]

We should make that the intro to Starkville just to see how quickly there's a call placed to Tim McMaster.

[B]

Brian. But Brian also clipped it. Brian, is yours ready, too?

[C]

Let me see your hands.

[A]

Crap.

[B]

Everybody clap your hands.

[C]

Am I being an idiot? Honestly, it's too early in the postseason for this because that. If you had dropped that on, like, Brian, stop. If you would drop that on me on, like, October 22nd, like, my head would have disconnected from my body. I'm like, I'm still pretty much with it right now, but in about two more weeks on the road.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Brian's like, I think, what if he has the. About. It's like, he's not gonna have the. But end of October, you might have had even like, come on, guys, this is World Series.

[C]

No, I mean this as sincerely as possible. You know, when people say they listen to the show, like, I'm always shocked. I see the numbers. I know humans listen to the show, and we're really, like, you know, grateful for it. But then I just think about, like, oh, my God, they hear all these dumb things. This has been episode.

[B]

The thing I like about it is that there's both Sam and me laughing at the end. So it's like the perfect encapsulation of the whole show is one guy going, da, da, da, and the other guy. And the other guy's laughing like, that's. That's our show.

[C]

Yeah, that's the show.

[A]

Yeah. Good stuff.

[B]

We'll be back on Monday. We're gonna have some answers, folks. We're gonna have some. Some LCs to preview, and it's gonna be fun. We'll talk about then. See you then.

[C]

I was very wrong, trunk.

[A]

That's how you end up getting a boner named after you.